Anglican Unscripted 889 - It's your own Damn Fault

[@andysmith4158]

I am appalled, as a member of the Church of England, that Welby was told in detail about John Smyth and yet did nothing, including NOT reporting Smyth to the police. Had an ordinary parish priest failed in such a major safeguarding issue, they would have been fortunate not to be either suspended or dismissed as a priest, so why does this not seemingly apply to the Archbishop? We have far too much two-tier justice in the UK already, but now it seems to have invaded even the Church. Today, a group of us were reading James 4 at a Bible Study. Verse 17 states that, "So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin." Welby knew he should have reported this to the police. He didn't do so. He must be sacked.

[@royquick-s5n]

Before you sack Welby, I suggest an investigation and report be made on how many parish priests and bishops have not reported abusers similar to Smyth to the police in past years, including the likelihood of being reported today.

[@lizzyhart1781]

It's been long enough! Welby should be sacked now.

[@vsts2004]

As a humble CofE member/attender of 68 years, I have never had less respect for, or more suspicion of, its leadership at every level. Nearly everything it once stood for has been lost and I don't think can ever be recovered. A few exceptions here and there.

[@johnhudghton3535]

As a contributor to the Makin report I can testify Welby is lying. Todays leaders political and religious have no shame. They blatantly lie and deny and brazen things out. They know no shame. Jeremiah 6:15 " Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when I punish them,” says the LORD."

[@kenbeach5021]

_But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, _*_and all liars,_*_ their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death._ The sobering thing is I don't believe clergy are exempt from the word _all._ If you read the end of Revelation it is clear that God will not allow anyone who loves falsehood into his presence. After all the fall of man came about by believing a lie.

[@johnhudghton3535]

​@@kenbeach5021Yep Ken.

[@RichJames-n4k]

Can you give more detail about the lies

[@johnhudghton3535]

@RichJames-n4k Yes. The date he became aware of concerns. He states 2013. It was much, much earlier 30+ years. He knew there were issues when he was a student.

[@homemaintenance1234]

Well said!

[@mitchmclean5435]

Make Anglicanism Great Again

[@Ozgipsy]

The serial incompetence and moral blindness of Justin Welby is beyond anything I’ve seen near the top of the church.

[@royquick-s5n]

When is the general membership of the Church of England going to query on whom an Archbishop of Canterbury is dependent for his position? Is the archbishop directly accountable to the general membership? Bishops were originally chosen by the clergy and laity of a diocese. The membership has one control, i.e. their pocketbooks. Too, they may walk away. They need not "walk together" with Welby.

[@lakesandfells]

Ironically Sunday November 17th is safeguarding Sunday in the CofE - not sure how Welby can ever speak out on the issue of safeguarding, now that he is so discredited.

[@theworkman317]

Two "damns" in one show!... totally appropriate. Keep up the good work, guys!

[@JonathanRedden-wh6un]

Thankfully I was not part of this inner circle or culture but I did meet Smyth very briefly at a beach mission where he visited for a day. I am very grateful that I was outside this particular grouping.

[@alanduff2205]

An Anglican (ACNA) from East Tennessee. You always have informative shows. Thanks for your work. We all know Who controls the future. Checked out when you got into politics, not what I come here for.

[@brjimbo1]

I have relatives in E. Tennessee, Jamestown, in Fentress County. Good Presbyterians 😊

[@elanamo]

Thank you for your ministry!

[@georgeallen7887]

I’m now 88. As a teenager, raised in the Episcopal Church, I was taken to bed by an Episcopal priest who was a sort of mentor, despite my repeated NO. And he introduced me to a clutch of seminarians who were pretty obviously homosexual. And throughout my church experiences through a long life, I’ve been completely aware of the clerical homosexual influences in the life of the episcopal church. I had to reckon with my own homosexuality by the time I was in my early 30s, but part of that reckoning was my attendance for a few years in an Anglo-Catholic parish where I used to joke that the congregation was made up of practicing and recovering homosexuals and alcoholics, and at least one of the priests was a homosexual living in a committed relationship with another man. Well, we are all sinners. It’s part of the reason we’re declared Christians. Repentance and reform are part of the deal. Newness of life is hardly easy to accept. This business with Welby should be salutary. Ever read Firbank? “The Eccentricities of Cardinal Pirelli”

[@KatharineStephenson]

It would be comforting to think that my Diocese would be keen to lead the charge against Welby. Sadly, it's the Diocese of Oxford, led by Bishop Stephen Croft, so I don't imagine anyone there will bother about Archbishop Welby's appalling behaviour. Thank you for an interesting and entertaining episode and also the good natured banter between you both - very reassuring.

[@homemaintenance1234]

Oxford is disgusting. Has been for years.

[@davidmorrison2739]

I tuned in to be cheered up but the news was all about the head honcho of the Lords Spiritual. The depression continued. But then at 38 minutes came the good and exciting news (which we all knew anyway). At our next election we are going to do the same thing and have MAGA- Make Ausralia great(ish) again.

[@elanamo]

I am deeply saddened to hear of this recent sexual misconduct scandal. I am reminded of a Homer Simpson cartoon. He is reading the Bible, sets it aside, and says, "Hmm.... this book is no good! Everyone in it is a sinner except this one guy!". The sad thing is, a tragic reality is captured in this cartoon. Every time clergy misconduct of this kind happens, people leave the Church. They are turned off Christianity and Jesus weeps.

[@cdy1952]

Well articulated 👍🏻

[@royquick-s5n]

People should ask, Just how accountable are bishops to the clergy and laity of a diocese and an archbishop to the clergy and laity of a province?

[@787Earl]

God bless you, thank you

[@thefollandgnat]

Fascinating stuff, thanks. It's not just about "sex on the brain" but the very normality of beating at English preparatory and public schools 40/50 years ago. Here's a post I made on the Surviving Church blog three years ago after the publication of Bleeding for Jesus, and it might shed light on the beating aspect, which might be surprising to American readers: "People write about Smyth as though he were in some way unique, as though these kinds of things were unusual in the private school system at the time. While he was certainly an extreme case, the physical punishing of boys by hitting them hard on their naked backside occurred every single day I was at my prep school, the Dragon School in Oxford, and occasionally at the next school I was carted off to, Winchester College, in the late seventies. These institutions, and the two I went to were in no way special in this regard, were home to numerous paedophiles and sadists. Let me give a few examples: in my first week at the Dragon, aged 8, with my parents safely thousands of miles away, I was repeatedly beaten on my naked backside with a slipper for talking with other boys after lights out. No one thought anything of this; it was completely normal. It didn’t take long for this to progress to a gymshoe or whatever other weapon was to hand. Then there was the red-faced French teacher who dragged you up from your chair by your hair, the young teacher, also a sadist, who took indecent photographs in the basement, the teacher who’d bawl at you in an incandescent rage, “Do you want the hairbrush?”, not to mention the teachers that slowly strolled up and down the edge of the swimming pool as us young boys took our mandatory naked “midnight dips” during the hot summer nights of the 1976 heatwave. I could go on and on… Winchester was simply a continuation of this sordid tale of private education in England, older men abusing children after they’d all sung Anglican hymns together in the morning, and John Smyth but an extreme version of the same old same old. I was taken to lunch at his house several times and was lucky not to get assaulted, but I should mention that when the head of PE at Winchester left the school, the next I saw of him was on the front page of the Daily Mirror, jailed for child abuse after being made head of a private school in the West Country. John Thorn [the headmaster at Winchester] himself caned a close friend of mine, aged 15 or 16. His ‘crime’? Writing on the blackboard that the headmaster was ill and that we should go back to our houses and have a free lesson. An Eng. Lit. teacher at the school jumped in front of the Portsmouth to London train after being summoned to face Mr Thorn for interfering with boys, and another friend of mine was attacked in a garden on Kingsgate Street by a large, jolly, bearded teacher. If you’d told boys about Smyth at the time we’d have shrugged and said, ‘Well, of course,’ although the quantity of blows and the foul religious justification for it would have made us sit up a bit. But no one would have been much surprised, as being thrashed on your bare skin was completely normal. Why does no one see this?" survivingchurch.org/2021/09/06/bleeding-for-jesus-martin-sewell-reflects/

[@chriselston1718]

Yes, if we are to stand in judgement, it is essential to understand British private boarding school culture in the decades leading up to Smythe. I attended a private boarding school in the 1960s. We were trained up to be strong self-reliant men who could stand on our own two feet. It was pretty tough, but mercifully by then there had been some amelioration and cruelty was off-limits. The masters were generally honourable men, but there was one, who had a proclivity for young boys, who years later I discovered was in prison. Men like him and Smythe could exist in a culture where tough discipline was normal without raising too many eyebrows.

[@glorytothefather-b7y]

Mistake after mistake after mistake. 'Will you resign Archbishop Welby?...'I have sought advice from senior colleagues and my answer is NO' (from Channel 4 News). Yet another mistake!!! Is there no end to his blatant arrogance and incompetence? He is an absolute disgrace and is clearly only interested in his own power and status. Unfortunately, most of his bishops worship him as 'one of their own' rather than worshipping their true master. A wolf in shepherds clothing is the most deceitful, and the most dangerous, and must be removed.

[@royquick-s5n]

How accountable are bishops to the clergy and laity of a diocese in the Church of England? How accountable is an Archbishop of Canterbury to the general membership of the Church of England? Bishops were chosen by the clergy and laity of a diocese in Early Christianity.

[@paullowe1869]

Welby is quite close to retirement. I imagine that resigning at this stage could have an adverse impact on his pension.

[@NkhosweNumberOne]

⁠@@royquick-s5n An Archbishop is not accountable to clergy or laity, although if he has any sense he would keep them on side. Synod is supposed to have some oversight role but the Archbishop is not beholden to them. The Crown Nominations Commission considers vacancies (and appointments).

[@royquick-s5n]

@@NkhosweNumberOne I understand that there are representatives of the General Synod on the Crown Nomination Commission but not exclusively so. Someone asked in the blogs may an Archbishop of Canterbury may be removed by the king. Archbishops of Canterbury have been removed by queen (Mary I) and by Parliament in the past. However, today, could a king remove the archbishop? The Prime Minister selects one from two candidates chosen by the Crown Commission and forwards it to the king or queen, who has technically final approval. (How all of that clashes with the way bishops were originally chosen!)

[@hengist1740]

Horrific stuff and absolutely not typical of, nor anything to do with the culture of English evangelicalism! I am a lifelong Anglican and have never, ever heard of this “personal mentoring” thing.

[@paullowe1869]

33:10 Having condemned John Smyth for his propensity for administering corporal punishment to young men, Kevin suggests it’s OK to take the ABC behind the shed for a spanking. I couldn’t suppress a smile 🤭

[@mattbod]

Welby is steeped in establishment privilege and entitlement. He loves the title and the trappings and will have to be dragged out of Lambeth Palace. He has turned the C of E into an apostate irrelevance. I have left if for a Baptist Church: good riddance.

[@marcokite]

Welby is steeped in establishment privilege and entitlement. He loves the title and the trappings and will have to be dragged out of Lambeth Palace. He has turned the C of E into an apostate irrelevance. I have left it for the Holy Orthodox Church: good riddance. ☦☦☦

[@doorntreader7624]

I was invited to Iwerne in 1979 - but decided to try another camp instead. A friend of mine did go along to Iwerne and recently told me that he had been abused by Smyth. The emotional damage that man inflicted is hard to quantify and in 2024, the buck stops with Welby.

[@carolleonard5780]

Pray for the Republicans in Massachusetts. We are thankful for the rest of USA.

[@keithsewell8389]

If Archbishop Justin knew early, when did John Stott know?

[@royquick-s5n]

I wonder, what would David Virtue's answer be to that one, inasmuch he extols Stott?

[@Psalm125v1]

Welby’s apology seems very hollow to me…

[@marcokite]

....like Welby

[@mykehillingdon]

As an English bible believing Christian I am totally bewildered that anyone still belongs to the C of E!

[@marcokite]

As an English bible believing Christian I am now happily Orthodox - quite! why does anyone still belongs to the C of E!? ☦☦☦☦☦☦☦ - time for Orthodoxy!

[@judithfs]

Hi gentlemen! I've just done a piece on the Makin Review for Virtue Online. In it, I've tried to explain what has been referred to as the 'peculiar' culture of the conservative evangelical community, in the Review. What went on was largely a function of the old British class system, rather than a church culture. Anyone in Smyth's position as a QC with his background and contacts, was deemed in those days to be one of the Great and the Good (all too often the complete opposite). The culture of silence in the church was built on this. No Anglican of any shade would have been likely to report Smyth. That does not, however, cover for all those Anglicans who knew or had suspicions about him. Their silence was moral cowardice. End of. No excuse at all. These were supposed to be CHRISTIANS, yet they let social niceties prevent them from doing the right thing. Absolutely disgusting.

[@royquick-s5n]

judithfs Did the question arise in your mind of just how accountable a bishop may be to the general membership of a diocese and an archbishop to the general membership of the Church of England? Just how much voice does the general membership of diocese have in the selection of its bishop and the general membership of the Church of England in the selection of the Archbishop of Canterbury?

[@judithfs]

​@@royquick-s5n tThat's a good point! The answer is, the folks in the pews don't get a real say. And bishops tend to be more in favour of cultivating the good opinion of other bishops rather than of their churches. My point was just that back in the day (and now?)the vested interests of the CofE were more in favour of protecting the Church and themselves than of doing the morally right thing.

[@kenbeach5021]

Well let's hope the title of today's episode doesn't elicit a barrage of complaints!

[@Yasmirr]

Can the King as supreme governor of the CoE sack to Archbishop of Canterbury?

[@johnhudghton3535]

He is too much of a buddy to Welby.

[@royquick-s5n]

Good question? Mary I sacked Thomas Cranmer. William Laud was executed by Parliament in 1645, during the rise of the anti-episcopal Puritans during the Commonwealth. There would not be another Archbishop of Canterbury till 1660. William Sancroft was removed in 1690 for refusal to give an oath of loyalty to William III. Today the king or queen has technically final approval of a name for Archbishop of Canterbury forwarded to him or her by the Prime Minister from two nominees given to the Prime Minister by a Crown Commission. If I am not mistaken, the Crown Commission includes representation of the General Synod but not exclusively.

[@judithcressey1682]

Charles iii and George Carey both implicated in the equally sordid and distressing story of the Rev Peter Ball. There's a documentary (still on yt) about their determination to defend and support him including Charles giving him a house knowing of the allegations.

[@qandrewq5708]

He's just given Welby an honour....

[@judithcressey1682]

George Carey was also implicated, along with Charles iii, in the protection and support of the Rev Peter Ball. An equally sordid, vicious individual, a bishop, responsible for the death-by-his-own-hand of one of his victims. The story is outlined in a documentary which is still on YT. Charles iii supported Ball and even provided him with a house. It's another harrowing tale of beating and abusing young men and boys.

[@homemaintenance1234]

Indeed, this is just a rerun of that. Welby put Carey out to grass, while doing exactly the same thing! Loathsome man.

[@MyrnaJo]

Welby should never have been made ABC ! He is a business man and certainly does not belong in the Eccliastical arena- truly NOT a man of God as he professes.

[@nickbutland2797]

Where have you been for the last 10 years? Clearly this affair brings great shame on the church, but to blank Welby's work in recent years reflects rather worse on your observation than his conduct.

[@MyrnaJo]

@ no - it was Welby's responsibility to stop this from happrning years ago !Gross negligence I say and its good he is gone now . Too bad he wasnt brought before the Ecc Court

[@nickbutland2797]

@@MyrnaJo No-one is defending his conduct in this area. What I ask you to consider is that he has worked hard to prevent different traditions going to war with each other.

[@robertirwin7644]

Re. Justin Welby, your report maybe partly explains his virtue signalling on woke matters etc. It takes away the focus on issues closer to home.

[@annfraser9298]

Small correction. The Al Jazeera article said that Trump listened to them and promised peace. The community is willing to give Donald Trump a chance to prove himself. I want to highlight something that I missed when I first read the article. I had the assumption there are only two parties Republican or Democrate but the article indicated the votes of progressives, Arab Muslims and youth went to the Green Party presidential Candidate. Being a Canadian with a multiparty system the Green Party what does that show up in USA. I need to give the other reason for this warning. If a Muslim Arabic person voted Trump it means either their a truth seeker who knows the government unstated secrets in the Middle East or they know The Truth. Either case in a radical community you can be killed if you are suspected of going against the Jihad message. Please soften that Michigan message to protect the solutionaries.

[@HB-iq6bl]

George you have dropped a bit of body fat

[@johnhudghton3535]

Good old "plausable deniability" working for Welby.

[@wemrick7503]

Just so you know, according to his many biographies, Pete Rose didn't drink...

[@MyrnaJo]

Hi guys !

[@TheDCinSC]

I didn't think the AC was that distracting.

[@campbellpaget453]

It's not just Welby; that's the point. The culture of cover up' for the sake of appearances runs through the House of Bishops. They are selected - not elected - and indoctrinated that a 'united front' and 'collegiality' are of paramount importance. The issue begins with the criteria for selection - not shepherds and leaders required but hirelings and managers to be 'company' men and women'. There is no investigation into their past track records as effective leaders; they just need to have to kept their noses clean and not rock the boat. This allows for all sorts of weak and supine people to be 'preferred' to higher office. And they are trying to accrue even more power over their clergy with their 'reforms'. It actually took one woman of character and courage (Bishop of Newcastle) to make a stand while the wimpish men crossed their fingers and hid in their 'palaces'. Quite shocking and reprehensible: there should be many more resignations.

[@johnhudghton3535]

Perhaps for your next edition explore which Diocese of the C of E has the biggest shortfall in budget, what does it amount to and how much in reserves that they have drawn on, do they have left. Oh and how many non jobs are they supporting? Clue: one of your favourite Bishops leads it. Quote from SSM cleric in this Diocese, "Deanery Synod this week and xxxxx has proportionately the biggest deficit of any diocese £600k from reserves this year and not much left. Time to merge."

[@royquick-s5n]

Oh? George, after your comments, I would like to stand on a soap box to tell Episcopalians that they are not that far removed from Smyth's Church of England. How you sound as though you were separated by more than the Atlantic Ocean from England. However, it is my contention in such issues, a separation ought be made between the general membership that had absolutely no connection with the issue and the bad actors, including accomplices. Should all of the membership of the Church of England be stereotyped by the Smyth cover-up? No. Should bad actors be stopped? Yes!

[@jgcl138]

Your analysis of Trump's ability being superior in being able to broker a deal may be correct up to a point, in as much it only takes into consideration the short-term - no more than 4 years effectively, and then leaving Ukraine vulnerable again. If his boast to solve and end the Russian invasion in 24 hours is for Ukraine to surrender the territory Russia has illegally taken (about 15-20% of Ukraine plus effectively a substantial extra amount of land as a buffer-zone) together with a guarantee that Ukraine will never join NATO (and probably the European Union too), then Ukraine gets NOTHING, having lost tens of thousands of its citizens who were trying to defend their country from merciless aggression, occupation and tyranny, after USA guaranteed its defence and sovereignty after the fall of communism, and Ukraine's agreement to surrender the 3rd largest nuclear stockpile in the world in exchange for protection. If roles were reversed, Trump would be immediately out of office by popular demand. If such a plan is offered by the US President, he will totally blame his Ukrainian counterpart if he understandably refuses to sign it and hand his hero and pal Putin carte blanche to continue his invasion, no doubt with American backing and the rapid easing of sanctions. If Zelensky were to agree, then he would be blamed by his people for a sell-out for the lives of so many brave patriots, and leave his country open to another invasion in 4 years' time. It has happened countless times before - Putin never keeps his side of any deal. This would cause USA to lose its best allies in Europe as well. Support for Ukraine is by no means one way - it has arguably much more than America can give it including vast mineral and agricultural resources to share with the world as well as military innovation, that's why it is so important to Russia.

[@Bob.W.]

Don't disagree with you, but whatever happens or may happen in that war is not a reason to support Kamala Harris and her party. I am glad she lost. Thx.

[@thomasyeutter1112]

GAFCON is a mishmash of Anglican Provinces who call themselves Anglican; some of whom ordain women, including women bishops. some Provinces think the ordination of women is both unbiblical and contrary to the to the tradition of the Church Catholic. GAFCON adopted a three streams vision of what Anglicanism is. The idea that equal respect should be given to catholic, evangelical and Pentecostal streams is not even hinted at in the Thirty Nine Articles of Religion and the historic Anglican formularies. It is no wonder that GAFCON is ineffective.

[@brjimbo1]

Christ ordered Francis to rebuild His church in Portulincia. As an Anglican, 27 year life professed Franciscan brother...I'm remaining in communion with the See of Canterbury and trying to assist in rebuilding the Anglican Church. Notwithstanding, GAFCON and ACNA (and maybe even the ECUSA). Pax et Bonum, James +

[@darylmulwane3430]

So the democrats had NO mean, demeaning, disrespecting thoughts and speech?

[@marcokite]

No! They're Saints!

[@marcokite]

Starts at 3:10 - don't listen to the rambling for the first 3 minutes.

[@ClaireScarrott258]

I'm actually surprised that you believe anything will happen to Welby. The establishment will give him his Knighthood. They won't want to rock the boat regarding the man who performed King Charles coronation. As usual, this is all about timing. They kicked the report into this abuse scandal down the road, so that Welby could get his wish to perform the King's coronation. He will get his Knighthood in the New Year's honours list and then resign shortly after. Thus burying the abuse scandal with his departure. The next Archbishop of Canterbury will be seen as a new broom, sweeping clean and the whole thing will quietly be forgotten because it didn't happen on their watch.

[@tracypaterson1633]

Forr Pete's sake i dont think Kamala probably has very good thoughts . People are allowed their thiughts . His actions were better than the ones ive seen over the last four years . Actions speak louder than thiught.

[@georgeallen7887]

Kevin’s political comments are useless and sophomoric.. And George’s? Let’s just hope Trump succeeds internationally. But he now has close to carte blanche for whatever he does domestically, and, given what he’s said, that could have very bad effects on American society, in my opinion. One of the most successful businessmen? Most successful celebrity businessman, maybe.

[@tedkijeski339]

FWIW, Pete Rose did not drink -- at least he didn't drink alcohol. Iced tea was his preferred beverage.

[@stewartgray4301]

I am a Church of Scotland member. We don't have bishops.

[@marcokite]

The Church of Scotland therefore rejects the Gospels and the 2,000 year old Tradition of the Church. Time for Orthodoxy ☦☦☦☦☦☦☦

[@mary931]

1 Corinthians 12: 26 says: “If one part suffers, every part suffers with it”. I have no problems with the suggestion that Welby should resign. What I have problems with is the rest of the Body of Christ in Britain. When Jesus addresses the seven churches in Revelation He says: “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches” and this is after He has pointed out some faults of the churches. Jesus does not actually say: get rid of those people with wrong teaching or behaviour does He? He says: YOU! YOU! You in the singular. Judgement must begin at the House of God. Can anyone hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches in Britain? Just forget the political and legal procedures. Listen to The Spirit! I am personally sick of the state of the churches in Britain, and I am even more sick of the little Holy Remnant enclaves who always pipe up and say: We are a wonderful church, full of the Holy Spirit. We aren’t like them! There is only ONE BODY. If sins are being committed in any part of the Body it affects ME! I am reminded of John Donne’s famous devotions which include the famous “No man is an iland” where he says so many profound things. If you hear a bell tolling for someone who is dying, “DO NOT SEND TO KNOW FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS, IT TOLLS FOR THEE”! and “…if a clod be washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a promintorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde” Welby’s fall diminishes ME, just as if it were my own church or my own self! Do you think Jesus will stop at exposing Welby? No, His winnowing Fan will reach our own front doors; our own hearts. We are all being given a chance to listen NOW to the Spirit. We are all being given a chance to repent NOW! Welby is just the beginning. Read Ezekiel chapter 9: 4-10. God started at His own House, then told the angels to proceed from His own Temple and go outwards from there, destroying all except those who wept and lamented for all the sins being committed. (He did not spare those who thought they were righteous and had wonderful churches!) Any ONE who has ears to hear, listen to the Spirit and REPENT and weep for the sins committed by the British churches, BEFORE the destructive tide sweeps you away too! .

[@kenbeach5021]

This is an interesting comment. What Jesus did in the letters to the churches in Revelation was 'strike dead' the children of immorality, which could either be literal or figurative, and remove the lampstand which would be to end the church. If I live to a ripe old age I will likely see the final demise of more than one historic denomination. I think that which calls itself church in the UK consists of two things, namely genuine believers in Christ and an apostate, institutional organisation. The last genuine believers in the latter were perhaps the parents or grandparents of the dimishing few who still attend. The institutional church is a mixture of believer and unbeliever. The believing element ought not to distance itself from those _of its own constituency_ who have committed abuse, but rather deal with it. However, I don't think believers are answerable for the behaviour of the apostates, and cannot repent on their behalf. I don't expect those who have torn the bible to shreds to live by its morals and ethics. I do take your point about holy remnant enclaves - the temptation to be pharisaical and say 'I thank thee Lord I am not like the ' or whoever else has brought the church into disrepute is all too real. As for listening to the Spirit, there was in the 80's and 90's a great deal of emphasis on separating from dead Christianity amongst those wanting to restore the church to a more biblical NT pattern, and with hindsight this may have been more prophetic than I was willing to believe at the time. Lloyd-Jones was right and John Stott wrong?

[@mary931]

@@kenbeach5021 Actually, the bible does not say that Jesus "struck dead" the sinners in the church of Thyatira, but rather that He would IF they did not repent. Also, He did not say He would remove their Lampstand. That was the church at Ephesus and it is interesting that it was the church who got the correct doctrine and had some good things who were told their lampstand would be removed if they did not repent. I heard a sermon which said that the church at Ephesus disappeared. I don't know if that is definitely true? If it is, then it seems that a church which has got many things right is less likely to repent than a church which has got many things wrong!

[@roberthunter124]

😢 not you guys too

[@Psalm125v1]

Donald Trump is a classic narcissist…

[@marcokite]

er, no - that would be Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

[@vincentcoppola9832]

And yet, he's a very good president.

[@davepugh2519]

You'd think an all-powerful god could do something to stop this, if he cared (or existed)

[@marcokite]

Oh no poor 'Dave', that's what YOU would do if you were God. However the Lord is Divine and Ultimate Wisdom, for one thing he gives us free will to sin, otherwise we'd be robots. Maybe you fancy being an automaton 'Dave'. God does not micro-manage and control every second of our lives as if we were playthings. He is the Eternal Judge though and nothing is forgotten.

[@davepugh2519]

@@marcokite I'm way better than your imaginary god.