ECGFollowup

A followup on the ECG video where I go over an announcement that landed literally a couple days before my video was set to air.
Sources: www.fantasyflightgames.com/en...
www.tradingcardmint.com/produ...

[@justwungo]

I've always been fascinated by how projects with tons and tons of artists handle art direction, so I'd love to see that video!!

[@acrowdofpeople]

I see not releasing large sets as a benefit, since they don't include deliberate chaff. I can't speak to other card games, but Mark Rosewater of Magic: The Gathering has actually come out and said that some of the cards they release are deliberately bad cards in order to "teach players the joy of recognizing a bad card," among a few other bad reasons given, including "If we don't deliberately make chaff, we'll have to release smaller sets!" He did give one reason I accept as a good one for bad cards: "this card had a mechanic that turned out to be weaker than we expected."

[@the40inchtaco]

There are some other reasons cards are bad. Sometimes cards need to be weaker to balance the limited environment (sealed/draft) though that's typically done with commons and uncommons because they make up most of those decks. There is also demographic for bad rares; Johnnys who like winning with things that noone would ever touch. Not every card in a set needs to be for everyone so long as every card is for someone. Also, just by having so many cards some are naturally going to be the worst. It's really hard to balance even a rotating standard, let alone eternal formats.

[@BluAlaris]

That type of bad card is often called a “skill tester”. The name came later, but the concept is mentioned in his 2002 blog post “when cards go bad”. The 2010 Wizards blog post “Finding The Right Home” also discusses “bad” cards and limited formats, but mentions that they have tried to almost completely eliminated “skill testers” from Magic sets. MaRo seems to agree when he’s been asked about that topic in the past decade or so. The 2019 Wizards blog post “Fire It Up” goes even further, talking about their “FIRE” philosophy that aims to make every common card in a draft set more Fun, Inviting, Replayable, and Exciting. Many players have been complaining that FIRE is too successful, and that commons are too good now! The common card Cauldron Familiar and uncommon Lucky Clover were so good that they had to be banned in Standard.

[@Amphibian42]

@@BluAlaris lucky clover got banned? I mean it makes sense i made a deck that could mill 180 cards on turn 4 but it was so jank i never got it to properly go off in practice, i assume it had to do more with stuff like brazen borrower and such that had wacky and busted abilities to begin with, and really they were the problem cards rather than the uncommons like lucky clover that just enabled some fun and janky interactions 90% of the time

[@kateslate3228]

​@@Amphibian42Doubling up on already good Adventures is, turns out. Pretty good.

[@mortanme7375]

As much as art direction makes or brakes a game for me. I’d love to learn about organized play

[@veggieh8r]

Fantasy Flight made an Warhammer 40K LCG called Conquest which my local store was convinced it was going to die a quick death despite being wildly popular at the store. He regularly warned customers that this game may not be supported soon. He mentioned that FF didn't have the support and events for Conquest the same way they had for all their other stuff. Especially the new games. He was right. Some months later Games Workshop pulled their license and Conquest was dead. Game's still cool though.

[@rmcdaniel2424]

@@veggieh8r eh.. There is a lot of games that do great without organized play. Even Warhammer 40k only has 5-10% of its base that actually plays at the store. Its not make or break. Most people play at home. A store owner would obviously have a bias opinion about playing at the store.

[@SaberToothPortilla]

One possible solution to the "can't do large sets" problem is to just release sets in the form of a handful of decks. For instance, if the set would be 200 cards. You could split it into 5 or 10. Then you could still eliminate the random elements while giving some degree of granularity to the thing.

[@danmaproductions8208]

I was a actually considering this option, small starter decks are an easy way for new players to get into your game at very affordable price

[@Banaanivatkuli]

I think that it would cost more to produce multiple products but could work

[@SaberToothPortilla]

@@Banaanivatkuli In general, it definitely would, so that would absolutely be a trade off.

[@ccggenius]

That's basically what they're doing with the Marvel LCG. Every release is a fully playable deck with a new character. They DO still only release them one at a time though. I don't think releasing many at one time is tenable; brick and mortar retailers DO NOT want to deal with a bunch of new skus dropping constantly, they do not have the shelf space.

[@freshtheend4903]

I was actually thinking of doing this. You might not be able to put big expensive pieces but you can do dice and tokens.

[@Buzterer]

Do art direction because that is the first thing most people discover about a game

[@Melphisto_]

At the very least, we could talk about clarity on products! A first impression could still be good if the art is… eccentric, but not knowing what you’re looking at in the slightest will definitely do a product bad.

[@st4pps]

I feel like this concept would work better as an online card game. So you don't have to buy extra stuff its just a free update.

[@RetroMaticGamer]

I might reconsider Arkham Horror now. Really, I'd GLADLY pay more for an LCG core set that came with full playsets of every card, because otherwise I'm paying triple the price of a cheaper core set anyways. If the excuse is "we want players to be able to try it out first with less overhead," then they need to sell SMALLER starter sets: $15-20 to get a bare-bones 2-player experience (like Magic duel decks), which the player could then upgrade with the larger Core Set.

[@davidbronstein2040]

Definitely try it. My brother and I have played through most of the expansions and it's a lot of fun. Just be prepared to lose a lot, the game gets brutal sometimes.

[@rmcdaniel2424]

Keep in mind if you modify the duel decks to be fun that is a slipper slope to blowing hundreds of dollars lol.

[@ebbandfloatzel]

I'm biased, but Art Direction gets a huge thumbs up from me! Games can live or die on art direction being cohesive, and from a collector's standpoint that's the entire point sometimes. Magic the Gathering itself had the entire discussion when cards stopped "looking like Magic Cards." And Pokemon's rarity and secondary market (edit: for non-vintage sets ofc) is completely dominated by special art variants with the occasional actually just a good card.

[@Lucario1121]

I would love your take on digital card games like Shadowverse and how it'll affect future physical TCG games.

[@Sheeps856]

Your comment about the premium damage tokens etc coming in addition to cardboard ones reminded me! When the pokemon TCG first launched, here in the UK, I am fairly sure the starter set I got came with glass beads - blue ones for HP damage, and orange ones for poison counters. Flat on the bottom, but rounded. I am also pretty sure I used to put them in my mouth. I am 99% sure this is why they switched to non-glass-bead components fairly quickly. They were such pleasing colours and I'm sure that if colous have flavours they'd have tasted great. But honestly? In this world of adults who grew up playing good TCGs, CCGs, and board games, I'd love more glass components like that, or metal ones. Satisfying weight and "clink" noises are nice. At least I'd love them to not cost £30 extra.

[@BitterOblivion91]

art design and layout! Been enjoying every video on game design so far, awesome job Kohdok! :D

[@KiieLuka]

I really want a video about design and art direction. Also, loved the video!

[@lucasdecarvalholorena5193]

Art direction! As someone who's been designing a card game (an ECG about Avatar The Last Airbender) I crave for layout role models! And your channel is the best I've found for plentiful diverse references! Also, I've started to realize what a huge amount of work must go from inicial designs to updating collections of hundreds of cards and revising before print (which I haven't done yet).

[@lucasdecarvalholorena5193]

But please share about organized play in future videos as well. I know zilch about it...

[@kubanasal6722]

I'd like to see the art design video.

[@MFMegaZeroX7]

Ooh both ideas sound fun. I don't really have a preference.

[@PlasticSiding]

Oh nice a double up on my favorite subject. Liked the more precise critique/discussion on the different games. Your discussion of addons and how to continue refining the product as you add things to it was very insightful. I will probably watch this again if I'm ever able to finish my core set and am lucky enough to make an addon. Seeing as you made videos about what I kept bugging you about, I wanted to ask if you have done any kind of deep dive on deckbuilding games. I know it really isn't similar to TCGs and a little bit similar to ECGs. I would really like your opinion on Deck Building games because it is a bit like the inverse of the dreaded life decking. Also my vote is "Art and layout" I am currently working on designing with my artist for my game.

[@ReadingRulesDallas]

Good to hear from you again!

[@SoloWing88]

This is why I appreciate Sentinel of the Multiverse

[@woomod2445]

God yes, I would kill for a 1 v 1 thematic "here is your deck." game.

[@Kohdok]

There was a game that tried this called "Villainy".

[@Nshadowtail]

@@woomod2445 It's probably not QUITE what you're looking for, but maybe Yomi by Sirlin Games? Each character has a unique deck like in Sentinels, and it's built to be structured like a fighting game so it works best 1v1.

[@Lyth13]

An idea I’d been tossing around for an ECG (originally tcg but indie tcgs tend to struggle financially) and I had considered having a set of start decks with their own unique cards as well as the core set and then any future expansions. It would give people a lower cost entry into the game and make it easier for kids to pick it up if they’re interested.

[@Lyth13]

But ultimately this all seems to be a pipe dream…

[@BaronKrool]

How about ignoring the concept of a core set entirely and just making unique starter decks and small "booster-sized (but still non-random) expansions inbetween sets of starters? Do ECGs really NEED core sets? A good one is worth doing, but do you NEED it?

[@Lyth13]

@@BaronKrool I have considered that too. Could do something like release 5 unique start decks and maybe like a 50-100 card booster box, releasing a new booster every 6 months or so and 5 new start decks every year?

[@ReadingRulesDallas]

Looks like you better do both kinds of shows --- and SOON!!

[@Tails7777]

Both of those topics sound super interesting! I hope we see both of them at some stage, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on organised play first :)

[@marygraceoyangorin8918]

I don't play board games nor TCGs and can't afford some toys you review, but I have fun seeing others talk about TCGs and board games and reviews toys. I like that you don't just mindlessly hate the product you didn't like and give some other good qualities of the thing.

[@pedropaulofaria6126]

Please do art design, im entering this phase of development on my game and would probably need some insights

[@grimjack9139]

Organized play definitely. I have an idea to create organized play for my games, but they're really guidelines to help people create new formats.

[@brandonkeane6008]

Throwing my vote in for art first, organised play second!

[@jamesmast4221]

I say organized play for the next errata text though i'd like to see the art design episode too at some point

[@espeon200]

While both of those scripts sound great, I’d really like to hear what you have to say about organized play. I’ve been realizing lately just how important organized play is for Pokémon TCG in particular. I moved in the middle of the pandemic, and have had a difficult time meeting the Pokémon TCG crowd in my new city since organized play has been cancelled for so long. I don’t think I’d realized how powerful it is to have a time at the LGS when people know it’s time to play the game.

[@LuvzToLol21]

Wait, why am I here? I don't even know what an ECG is.

[@MultiLalo12]

Yeah, organized play sounds like some fun comparison.

[@HybridAngelZero]

For me, art direction is something I'm definitely interested in talking about. As a matter of fact, creature and art design is something that keeps me from picking Magic back up even though I love the gameplay

[@ZKETCH42591]

Welp im getting arkham horror! I love horror, i love table tops, and theres expansions :D Thank you

[@Hinaguy749]

I'd definitely like to see you talk about organized play. Especially in light of so many digital games including digital versions of paper games and WotC's decisions in the last few years towards organized play.

[@cassiossousa]

Good to get here early. Let's goooo!

[@meisterband8603]

art direction but organized play is realy intristing

[@callmestair]

Art direction and Layout.

[@ReiyaW]

organized play~

[@Stroggoii]

The problem I have with incomplete sets really isn't even that they come incomplete, it's that they generate gruesome waste when you buy enough to complete all card play sets. If you really can't put everything in the box just split EVERYTHING into two boxes.

[@SnackMuay]

worth noting that yugioh speed duels seem to have moved to an "ecg" style of product release

[@SAL-395]

The art and layout video would be nice

[@MrDraquo]

Hi Kohdok! I'm curious: Which game is the one on top in the Lime Green box? I can only make out "Defenders". Thanks for your help and keep up the great content!!!

[@hermitstower8879]

I got a kickass holo jersey devil from the metazoo pack that came in my box

[@Tenibrae]

Art design! Maybe even go over font choices and general card layout!

[@MateusDrake]

I'd rather watch art design and layout first, but I'm gonna watch both for sure!

[@Banaanivatkuli]

Talk about art and layout!

[@pikapuffin368]

Either idea sounds good tbh

[@ollimetalolli]

Both topics are interesting, I'd be a little more interested in the Organized Play video.

[@ShadowReaver573]

Organized play for sure. Art style close second. Question for comments: is Ashes Reborn a fun ECG?

[@kateslate3228]

It's VERY boring.

[@Rumu11]

I’m very curious about art… and especially cost effective art >.>

[@Soleanna_CCG]

Art and direction should be next, but organized play is the most important.

[@AutisticBoardGamer]

The ECGs could have boosters of shiny/alt art cards

[@SonicDoctor]

Organised play would be awesome

[@ZEDEX252]

YEESSSS!

[@The1Zubatman]

Art direction sounds more interesting to me

[@TheJaggedHero]

Art direction

[@iloveyandex4862]

I want to learn how to make proper card interface

[@Gaming_Nerd1993]

I want to see the Organized Play Video First then the Art Design and Layout afterwards.

[@Zanji1234]

i wouldn't say that the small expansion don't shift the meta that much. I've played Netrunner (a little bit) and Game of thrones 2nd Edition and yeah not EVERY Deck got hughe impact cards in every small expansion but some of them DID but since they came so fast there wheren't really a developement in Meta (like counters to a good deck or so) can't really develop since next month there are again more cards availalbe

[@chaosof99]

I'd be interested in Art Design & Layout, because I am still unsure how Yu-Gi-Oh ever became a hit with the butt-ugliest cards imaginable.

[@SaberToothPortilla]

Do you think they look that bad? I think the biggest problem with Yugioh is a severe lack of cohesion, but on their own the cards are mostly fine to very good in some cases.

[@chaosof99]

@@SaberToothPortilla Yeah, they are terrible. Tthe name bar is just raised off the background in a fuzzy manner and the name is printed directly on the patterned background which is ugly. The card artwork is portrait oriented for no reason. In combination with the large card name and the already smaller card format, they make the textbook incredibly small. Furthermore there are really big borders on the left and right of the artwork for no reason. Just entirely wasted space on the card. Finally, and the worst of all, the small textbox means they use a miniscule font which is impossible to read from any distance other than the card being in your hand. Weirdly they even use the font for cards with even a single line of text.

[@Cat-zc8nj]

agree. even the new rush duels card layout looks better than the OG. It just looks so outdated.

[@grantflippin7808]

The anime helped

[@bennettmoseley2622]

What is that green box on top of vampire Rivals?

[@ozmond]

I wish there was a single player CCG

[@amazedalloy]

I know you say that they open themselves up to competition, but so many people will refuse to try anything else

[@TempoLOOKING]

Like the pcg market.

[@markchang2964]

Organized play!

[@Illusionmaker_MTG]

ART It is one of the main things that drew me into MtG (Starter Kit with Serra Angel by alltime great Greg Staples). That being said, I kind of miss the times in which the had art that was less streamlined, like the one from Rebecca Guay. It also hurt to see Terese Nielsen getting the axe because of twitter outrage (yea I make a difference between the Art someone does and his or her view on the world).

[@ColasTeam]

Seems a lotta people prefer art direction, but personally I'm more interested in the organized play idea.

[@griffinburke1755]

art direction 100% (any and all games need art, but only some games will have legitimate organized play)

[@ryuku2]

Campaign card games....? When will we see a D&D ECG? A... Persistent Campaign Card Game? PCCG....?

[@hairykraken3541]

mtg secret lair ?

[@Kohdok]

It was called Pathfinder the Adventure Card Game.

[@InvidiaofSouls]

Art design and layout please!

[@Hinaguy749]

Include some of the old mtg cards that use ante in your box.

[@justinmadrid8712]

do both videos.

[@ozmond]

I want to make a game that’s just yugioh goat format but as an ECG

[@TehEeveeGeneral]

I vote art direction

[@reyiven7625]

Art direction and layout it make or breaks games

[@cat3273]

Personally I'm more interested in the art design video, because art design really makes or breaks a game for me.

[@vladspellbinder]

Competition does have this way of making businesses sit up and take notice. Something about money? Don't know.

[@TempoLOOKING]

Nah it don't.

[@cantrip7]

Have there been any ECG-style games for kids? Their themes tend to be pretty grim. Well, Ashes is bright and colorful... but it's like all the characters are angry inside an Apple store, so it has a mature vibe.

[@Kohdok]

Not sure. That high initial buy-in tends to be off-putting to kids. Closest I can think of is maybe one of the Marvel games or the original Sentinels of the Multiverse which play up the cartoony comic book angle.

[@cantrip7]

​@@Kohdok Someone could try Ashes' small deck size & deck-as-expansion model for a kid's game for $8-$10 per pack. But even that pushes the smallest product outside of the impulse purchase window for a lotta families. My ~ideal~ would be an ECG with the Ashes' model BUT with boosters for alternate arts & foils, maybe with draft mode in mind for card distribution. I don't know if there's a market for that, but I want a LITTLE bit of gambling and trading in there... I've definitely read posts about families playing the Fantasy Flight Marvel together. Helps that the game's relatively streamlined for FF; my time spent playing Arkham with pals involves a lot of rulebook digging & forum searching, lol.

[@benwebb4424]

The fact that there are no more competitive LCGs is telling about the business model itself. It isn't optimal for competitive players. LCGs should not try to be CCGs, and CCGs have no reason to switch business models to try to win over board game players. They are not the same demographic. The demographics have some overlap for sure - but they're not the same. Just like heavy metal and punk music have overlapping audience, Green Day should not try to be Judas Priest. That wouldn't win over many Judas Priest fans, and it might confuse some Green Day fans.

[@39Lords]

L5R is actually not licensed by FFG, they own iy

[@ashlynbrown3728]

What's that green card box called?

[@Kohdok]

On top of the Vampire box? That's a deck for Crusaders of Lornia, which I mention towards the end.

[@ashlynbrown3728]

@@Kohdok thanks 😄👍

[@gmeaki02]

Art please.

[@metroghost8428]

Make both..

[@ccggenius]

L5R isn't licensed, FFG owns the IP.

[@KujakuDM]

You should look at the old l5r cards for art direction. they are AWFUL

[@davidbronstein2040]

Have you actually played a single game of Arkham Horror yet? It really sounds like you haven't.

[@Kohdok]

I soloed the in-box campaign. I killed the Ghoul Priest, captured FOUR Cultists, and prevented the ritual from finishing.

[@Th3Treasoner]

Put some YYH Alliance or Betrayal, or Bleach Bounts, Portal or Bankai packs in the box of junk, those sets are real cheap. This is sarcasm in case you're daft.

[@rmcdaniel2424]

I dunno if its "high and mighty" to think its cheaper to play LCG games then TCG games.. I cant play Dragonball Z TCG because of market manipulators. You often promote buying booster boxes, but it would be cheaper buying the single cards in TCG games and in Dragonball its 350 for a cheap deck. I can buy everything L5R LCG for half that.

[@riverrandle2968]

Why not both 🤭

[@Kohdok]

It's a question of which order.

[@andreaspersson3532]

Vote for art diection

[@rmcdaniel2424]

In short, the reason TCG games are horrible right now is they just for collectors. Something is wrong when you have to pay 100s of dollars for your game to be "fun"

[@Omnigamer88]

definitely organizer play and how much of a garbage fire it is :)

[@tsilver33]

Id be a lot more interested in organized play myself, particularly for smaller card games that arent the big 3.

[@Cat-zc8nj]

Ashes reborn did it best imo.

[@chrisbelair5916]

E

[@Lucario1121]

I would love your take on digital card games like Shadowverse and how it'll affect future physical TCG games.