Knuckles in Smash? - Leffen tries out new Project M Update | Project+

A new version of the "forbidden game" was recently released featuring the brand new character Knuckles. Here is Leffen's first impression of the new Project M version aka Project+. Enjoy!
Catch me live at / leffen
Twitter - / tsm_leffen
Edited by - / otriggad
Team Solomid:
/ tsmgram
/ tsmpro
/ teamsolomid
plays.tv/u/TSM

[@Farkonso]

Around 20 minutes in i was subliminally thinking about toblerone and was really confused. Then my brain fully noticed the 2 foot toblerone in the back of the facecam

[@xowormsfan1]

product placement leff got sponsors we dont know about

[@atl663]

Farkonso I subbed to you for the comment avatar combo

[@andyharris8212]

A melee vs PM crew battle in Project+ would be super entertaining

[@rorydillon7572]

Andy Harris I would kill to see that.

[@brandonmondacanogueda2341]

THIS!!! Omg if that ever happens I could die in peace😭❤️

[@Matanumi]

In which game though?

[@aIkaIi]

@@Matanumi he literally said P+

[@illford]

@@aIkaIi P+* there's no M

[@itsrottweiler9545]

Leffen "Feels good to play a game thats not melee that has good movement" Rivals of Aether "am i a joke to you"

[@Sithilnis]

yes

[@reikostorm]

rivals is fucking amazing. I hope they make a sequel and upgrade from the pixel art. it's not bad but I think with good 3d visuals it could actually be a huge game thats a lot more popular

[@smashssf2_ssbc15]

@@garbo5990 same

[@Atr0]

@@reikostorm i don't think it should "upgrade" from pixel art, it's not necessary in a game that operates in two dimensions

[@reikostorm]

@@garbo5990 I like it too but I think if the next game wants to be really good they have to upgrade. Rivals in a visual style similar to something like mvc3 would be amazing.

[@CloneHat]

“Why does he have a Marth fair that STOMPS?”

[@laynewoodruff7502]

I picked up PM a bit after it died out of popularity when it was recommended to me by a friend and I've been playing it in the years since. PM/P+ is by far my favorite smash game and I have a group of friends that all play it together and it's great. That being said your chat is insane if they think that Melee players wouldn't be amazing at PM. Melee skill transfers over pretty well to PM not quite as much the other way around (mostly due to quality of life fixes such as turning of tap jump etc). That being said your analogy at the end hits the nail on the head, Melee players typically have more tournament experience than P+ players. If you have two players (one melee and one P+) playing P+ and they both have the same time and tournaments under their belt yeah sure I'll put my money on the P+ player. On the other hand if you just say that each person has been playing for x amount of years I'll put my money on the melee player almost every time because they'll have more tournaments under their belt. For example say each player has 5 years of experience in their respective game for the PM player that might mean 60 locals and a few other tournaments here and there, but for the melee player that might mean 150 locals and a bit more of other tournaments around (also realistically most melee players will have some PM experience to be fair). Melee has more people playing and more tournaments than PM, it's just the way it's been for a while, with the extra people and playing against people better than them they'll get better faster. The situation reminds me of back in the day when people (kids) were saying that B4nny (one of the best players hands down) wasn't as good as Muselk (a pubber) in TF2. So they eventually did a 1v1 and obviously B4nny destroyed Muselk because he had a ton of competitive experience. Even on the lower end I only have a single season of experience in me, and I've been playing for 8 years, a person who's been playing for 2 years but has played 4 seasons could blitz me since they have more experience against more experienced players. I don't think any of your takes were wrong, I'm just assuming that those people in chat were really defensive about the game because they want to see it grow again rather than getting dismissed. I hope that the P+ team is open to taking criticism from top players the same way they are from players that play betas of their builds. I would really like to see this game grow again so I could play in more tournaments around Columbus rather than the like 1 a month. Either way, good video and thanks for checking out the game!

[@michaelvandevusse3728]

Layne Woodruff it died off because of all the nintendo fiasco that went down. It gonna be big again after quarantine

[@megasoniczxx]

Problem with that is the game can grow but it will never be able to get in big tourney's again like melee and is at right now since its a mod and nintendo has never been the best supporter of the competitive community for these games.

[@Chawinyaw]

@@michaelvandevusse3728 depends if it maintains it's steam. I love PM a lot, but this could just be a momentary thing that's flavor of the month. I hope that's not the case, but it seems like it only got big due to the quarantine and bigger smash streamers playing it for content (which isn't inherently a bad thing for several reasons).

[@Chawinyaw]

@@megasoniczxx I don't think anyone, especially PM players expect it to be as big as it used to be back in 2013-14, let alone as big as current melee

[@michaelvandevusse3728]

megasoniczxx we’re ignoring nintendo more now though. I think we will be fine

[@riskygamiing]

I just want pm to be alive. hope leffen keeps playing it and it would be cool to see him play with a top 50 pm player and get some insight into mechanics from someone who's been in the scene

[@riskygamiing]

@Ultimate L P+ isn't that dead. It's just small. And it's not like Ultimate is killing Pm. If anything, the popularity from ultimate is increasing the number of curious players trying PM out for the first time

[@riskygamiing]

@Ultimate L Being irrelevant is meaningless. To us, Blazblue is irrelevant, as is Rivals of Aether or Brawlhalla. As long as there is a consistent playerbase hosting tournaments, the game can live. Either way I don't think that it's irrelevant and if it were, I don't see how that would matter much. I think you're trying to say that there are just better options in the other smash games. I think that's true and I'm not asking anyone to pick up PM as their main game, but it's cool seeing them play in small tournaments or against other good PM players

[@Chawinyaw]

@Ultimate L saying something is irrelevant is so subjective. You think the fgc believes melee had any relevancy considering it can't even be backed by it's own developers?

[@riskygamiing]

@Hermaphrodeity This is true, but it's very easy to set up on Dolphin.

[@Splozy]

@Hermaphrodeity tell that to virtually every pc competitive game pre 2012

[@zachwagner5686]

I’m sad he didn’t jab as Charizard, it’s a great combo starter

[@hebogumbo674]

Buff charizard

[@pflor6441]

Never toxic player leffen

[@Hibernial]

Formerly toxic player Leffen.

[@drdepression4605]

@@Hibernial hes trying not to be toxic. Still kinda is tho. I think it's just in his personality

[@hillbillyboyDakota]

Leffen=Toxic

[@happycamperds9917]

He’s very... honest.

[@blui3609]

Dr DEPRESSION460 he’s not being toxic imo he’s just saying what he thinks while supporting his claims. I’ve seen more toxic in the fgc (I mean back then, he was pretty toxic)

[@mrmwm5446]

If these ideas had ult’s budget and backing that’d be the best smash game

[@lookatmynose9788]

Probably not

[@mrmwm5446]

@@lookatmynose9788 Why

[@lookatmynose9788]

@@mrmwm5446 I should be the one asking you that

[@mrmwm5446]

Look at My Nose Im just asking your opinion, not gonna argue or anything.

[@MichaelJordan6Rings]

@@mrmwm5446 Let me answer for him "I'm a dumb dumb Ultimate player that doesn't know how to get Project+ working, so I'll act uninterested." lmao

[@SOUNDFX850]

Hold "Z" Button & "Play" while choosing Knuckles to use Sonic Movie (Ova) Treasure Hunter Knuckles. Hold "R" Trigger & "Play" while choosing Knuckles to use SADX (All accessories & Upgrades) Knuckles. Both of these are secret costumes. This execution can be performed over any character, which means you can explore every character's pair of secret costumes. But one config tip: This Easter will work properly when you hold "Z" or "RT" along with pressing the "Start/Play" after you see the "Ready To Fight" title appear (after at least two players are chosen), executing this trick upon proceeding to the Stage Selection Screen, will load your selected character's secret costume when you've entered a fight/event. Secret costumes can be used in any game mode. Hope you really liked this Easter/Tip!

[@darkmatter100]

Melee is tighter than PM, if your good at Melee, once you learn PM mechanics and match-ups, fundamentals will carry you the rest of the way.

[@DarkLeviathan8]

Well as Hbox said, PM is like melee with little training wheels at the back

[@Matanumi]

Except its not because the shitty low tier characters got buffed and brawl characters force you to learn new matchups. Its melee at its core but with far more matchups and many melee players can't be bothered to learn it

[@hebogumbo674]

Everything feels easier in pm to me except shield drop

[@Saskaruto16]

Leffen, please give Rivals of Aether a try. It has a lot of inspiration from Melee, but it removed some mechanics to more focus on the movement, and adds unique depth in its own way with everyone having a lot of different mechanics.

[@arsenaltg1]

Leff please play more P+ LMAO

[@kkokay4]

I saw armada play vs ally in gfs of a tournament, and this was when ppl thought ally was the best pm player, and armada absolutely dismantled him. 3 stocked him every game with nerfed fox like he made him look clueless. No imagine if melee players actually tried in pm. It would not be close.

[@Jorjejuanson72]

When was ally ever considered the best pm player?

[@franciscofernandez8183]

@@Jorjejuanson72 2014.

[@Jorjejuanson72]

@@franciscofernandez8183 is that true? I thought either armada or zero was considered the best at that time? They both consistently entered pm events? I didn't think ally ever even ranked in the top 10

[@YazawaGrey]

@@Jorjejuanson72 that's because you're right. Also melee players did try in PM before they realized how janky the game is and all the bad buff and nerf choices the game would have.

[@cottonmather8146]

@@Jorjejuanson72 I think Ally was considered the best PM player for a short time during early 2015 (right around the time Ally took 2 sets off of Mew2King at a Clash tournament event). 2015 was a really weird time though since that's when PM's popularity started to slow down due to Nintendo pulling the plug on the game. Armada was definitely the best PM player for the first half of 2014 with Zero eventually taking his place and solidifying the year with a Big House 4 win against Prof.

[@Catatonic419]

Well mewtwo is pretty damn good in ubers

[@etch-6261]

you have my respect

[@JustPlainGod]

“Marth has a whood?” Lol

[@FlippMusic]

“The melee top tiers suck in this game LOL”

[@LHSMeleeClub]

tru cept marf doe...

[@DiabetoDan]

@@LHSMeleeClub falcon is high tier, arguably top tier

[@Finneagan]

Only Fox really. Everyone else is just as good if not better

[@nukacm]

TØM HΛTCHER fox most definitely does not suck, I’m sorry lol. Most relevant melee characters are just fine or really good

[@rorydillon7572]

Yeah, Melee is a lot more tech-heavy. PM has a boatload of tech specific to itself that is really unique, it’s just that it’s easier to learn. I think a lot of people that play PM just don’t want to spend hours upon hours on a tech skill grind, and that’s fair. Granted, to get into the PM scene, one would still have to do that, but not nearly as much as with Melee. I feel like that, in part, contributes to why Melee players are generally better. It’s easier going from PM to Melee than vice versa. Both are truly incredible games.

[@sauzeefy]

Pm has all the same tech lol They literally just added new tech to the game. I'll admit, PM is easier to play than melee, but i don't think the skill ceiling is lower by any means. The reason the game is easier to play is because a lot of the new tech is very rewarding, like B-reversing and DACUSing. On top of that, the characters are designed to be more forgiving, for example, more special moves (like raptor boost) can grab ledge now and battlefield no longer pineapples on the ledge. At the end of the day, yes, P+ is easier to play. The skill floor in the meta is a good deal lower. BUT this was done in a way that doesn't lower the ceiling. I'd go so far as to say that the game might even have a higher skill ceiling than melee.

[@sauzeefy]

And yeah, I get that there's SOME highly specific tech that can't be done in PM. Invisible ceiling glitch, ness's yo-yo glitch, freeze glitch, falling through PS fire transformation, etc. But all of those heavily detracted from the game either by causing unwarranted deaths, or tournament bans. The few instances of any of these being useful are heavily outweighed by how often they ruin a match. And what's crazy, is that all of this can be, and regularly IS, done on accident. Yes, it's true that PM has no light-shielding, but i'd like to mention that the game was balanced around it.

[@AgentOrange502]

@@sauzeefy the melee tech in pm is a couple frames more lenient compared to melee

[@hebogumbo674]

Plus melee has eggsercise

[@sophiekirkpatrick300]

I feel like one of the things that Leffen was missing about the PM Fox stuff is that a lot of the people winning tournaments early on in PM's history were Fox players from Melee. It's not just people who didn't want to lose to Fox that moved over to PM, it was also Fox players moving over to PM to win more money lmao.

[@LHSMeleeClub]

Leffen complains about melee top tiers getting nerfed but Marth is honestly still super super good in PM

[@Matanumi]

Marth is 1:1 in PM

[@ntq6887]

Falcon and Fox are also very good still. Not many of em are really significantly worse than their melee versions.

[@skirch6094]

As a PM melee Fox player I can offer my opinion on a few things. First things first I think it's inarguable that relative to melee the spacies are worse, just cause going from arguable best in the game to inarguably not the best, in addition to nothing but nerfs should show that, but in regards to how they fit into the meta of PM as a whole... I think Fox in PM is the most polarizing character in regards to how people see him, they see him as either a top/high tier due to his unique combination of insanely fast movement in all directions with a fast faller status & oppressive frame data, or he's a low tier due to his mediocre in PM punish game and how easy he is to both combo and kill. I fall somewhere in middle in thinking Fox is probably a mid-low tier, I think he has the potential of a high tier character but the amount of effort you need to put into him relative to other characters isn't really worth it to most. He basically has to play extremely bait whiff punish heavy in PM since any time you're unsafe on shield, get grabbed, lose neutral once, you risk death right then and there at almost any level of play due to just how easy it is to kill Fox. One thing I'll fight you on though are the other melee characters, I think Sheik, even though she received mostly nerfs, made it out largely in the same place as melee, and Falcon is arguably better than in melee, even as a direct comparison. In regards to the last bit, idk about PM scene at large, but I'm with you on the thinking of I don't think top melee players could waltz into a top tier PM tourney with no practice/MU knowledge and just win, but give them 6 months to a year of practice and they probably could.

[@Saskaruto16]

Sheik got some buffs and nerfs. They took away certain options but gave her others. I don't think she's as good in PM though, most PM players I have seen don't exploit her recovery as well as Melee players will. Falcon though, yeah he is definitely better. Quality of life buffs to make all of his stuff easier and more effective, rockcrocking fixed, RAR and nerfed meteor canceling both help him more than hurt him. IMO that's how Captain Falcon is supposed to be. But he is definitely the only Melee tournament character who is actually better.

[@skirch6094]

@@Saskaruto16 I don't know what buffs sheik got besides the small buffs to her throws besides down throw, but that was to compensate for the loss of guaranteed down throw followups, which are now all 50/50s

[@Saskaruto16]

@@skirch6094 She can act faster out of multiple throws to let her gimp more effectively, she can also crawl and wall cling which let's her dodge some approaches or edgegaurd attempts from her opponents. Forward smash also actually works so you can use it set up an edgegaurd or kill when she never really good before. Plus her biggest competition in Fox and Falco got nerfed a fair bit, Jiggs has so many bad matchups that she isn't played so Sheik never has to deal with her. Sheik is extremely good at comboing and killing semi-floaties and faster fallers, so she deals more effectively with all the new characters who are pretty much all mid fallers. So overall the matchup spread only improved for her, which one could also see as a buff.

[@skirch6094]

@@Saskaruto16 I think the crawl is the only real buff, fsmash doesn't kill, it just sends at better angle to combo off of (still has all the other issues of the move), and acting faster out of throws does't make up for down throw being nerfed, I more-so meant that Sheik remained in a similar spot on her position in PM's meta relative to melee, although as a character, she's undoubtedly worse when compared directly to her melee counterpart.

[@Saskaruto16]

@@skirch6094 As a character yes she is definitely worse than Melee, but only very slightly IMO. Wall cling is actually a really nice buff, it makes it so you can't just wait and react to wall jump and gimp her at the same timing every time. F-smash connecting and sending at a better angle gives her quite a strong edgegaurding setup that she really only got from landing a combo into fair that could only be at certain angles so you can't tech it. Overall I think her position relative to the meta it pretty similar yes, the cream of the crop still body her but she recks almost everyone else. The thing is though since "everyone else" as a category is a lot more important in PM where people will play weaker characters, IMO she's actually a better pick as a character in PM than she is in Melee. In Melee people tend to solo main or dual main at most, where as in PM you need at least 2, and Sheik not being too technically demanding while still having pretty much the same gameplan as always makes her a great pick as a character if you want to get good at PM in a way that very few characters can really compete with.

[@hiimemily]

"I don't get how you could ever use that!" *_perfectly edge cancels it_* "...I guess like that?"

[@The-df6xu]

Why r u trans

[@hiimemily]

@@The-df6xu Because I am??????? I don't understand the question.

[@Nothyn]

@@hiimemily images3.memedroid.com/images/UPLOADED151/5d6c50cbdba9a.jpeg

[@hiimemily]

@@Nothyn Easy for you to say, you don't even have a profile pic.

[@EclipsingMomentum]

Void fuck you dude

[@luijo633]

Before update: PM After update: PP

[@44i80]

HOW can i play this sick, i dont know where download HOW

[@luijo633]

@@44i80 Search in google project plus official, first link, you will have detailed instructions

[@Villain777_]

I have been requesting this addition for YEARS. YEARS!

[@Captain.Planet]

Legit had a dream last night that Knuckles and Tails were in smash. Vivid as fuck.. #Quarantine be fucking with the mind

[@freddiesimmons1394]

"I think they nerfed it" *talking about something not nerfed* Sounds like melee players playing PM again to me

[@ryanpennington817]

Fax straight hatin

[@Commander034]

Leffen in particular was like this during 3.0 or so.

[@freddiesimmons1394]

@@Commander034 not surprised. He was well known for being something of a... bitchy elitist

[@overtone55]

I'd love to have Knuckles in Ultimate. I grew up with the sonic franchise

[@Bigmanpo615]

Sadly he's an assist trophy. Maybe Eggman👀

[@scottlo211]

@@Bigmanpo615 Doesn't matter. They can still put Knuckles in & just patch him out of the assist trophies. They're doing the same with the new Arms DLC. 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@Bigmanpo615]

@@scottlo211 how do you know it's going to be spring man? Could be someone else

[@scottlo211]

@@Bigmanpo615 True, but when it comes to DLC, Sakurai has a habit of adding the main character of that franchise. Most likely it will be Spring Man, & maybe the skins would probably be other Arms characters. Kind of like how they did with Splatoon.

[@Bigmanpo615]

@@scottlo211 maybe so🤔

[@abrasivepaste]

"sometimes more does not mean better". Basically the best criticism of this game.

[@sauzeefy]

That aside, Pm is better.

[@Creepo_J]

Knuckles makes my controller chuckle

[@Mark---W]

I hope we get another Sonic representative in smash ultimate.

[@protocetid]

@Hermaphrodeity my pic would be Chaos 0 or Eggman, sucks SSB is so lacking in terms of playable villains

[@amala1333]

@Hermaphrodeity but the adventure games werent bad tho, just dated.

[@thekingbradable]

If he's anything like Sonic, I hope not. I'd rather them fix Sonic first lol

[@godlikelobster0180]

Knuckles or Tails preferably :)

[@RenShinomiya121]

@@protocetid the only playable villain in ultimate is just Ganon lol. It's not lacking anymore, there's like none of it.

[@xKuinkinx]

Saw Switch and HyperFlame in the chat, super cool seein all the P+ homies :D

[@x-radiate]

None has been playing PM for years and he’s been winning tournaments there’s vods also

[@hebogumbo674]

Then nerf captain falcon

[@drew8235]

I haven't played Project M very seriously yet, last time I tried it was 1.6 I think, but I'm glad to see that it's not only still around but getting even more updates even if it's essentially a completely different project and game with Project+

[@cyberdragoon7429]

Nice Lef! Cool to see you putting out PM content!

[@G.H.M.]

“I don’t know how you could ever use it” “I guess like that”

[@overtone55]

God they developed Knuckles like an Ultimate DLC fighter lol

[@freddiesimmons1394]

What do you mean? Only one dlc in ultimate is top tier

[@overtone55]

I mean tons of easy kill options

[@freddiesimmons1394]

@@overtone55 oh. Then carry on

[@IanZWhite00]

and a fuckin busted recovery lmao

[@lipat97]

Agree with balance concerns in PM. Fox is definitely still a top 5 character but yeah I’d prefer he wasn’t nerfed, and its possibly Knuckles is too strong. Also Melee players definitely were good at PM in the beginning and Im sure the skills still transfer somewhat. But I really doubt your fundamentals would carry you that much against any player in the top 20ish. I guess I dont doubt that you guys could take over PM majors, but I disagree on how much effort / how easy it would be

[@sharsasuke01]

They could have taken bullet seed and give us back solar beam.

[@DarkLeviathan8]

I like how he thinks that he's insulting the PM players by saying that they are worse at Melee than melee players, like what? lmao I don't get how that would be insulting, they just play another game my dude it's chill.. but yeah he's so of bad faith, I don't think he cares

[@sahhhbrahhh6408]

I don't think that's what he said. He said they're worse at melee than melee players are at pm.

[@DarkLeviathan8]

@@sahhhbrahhh6408 Well that's obvious, melee is so clunky to play compared to PM lmao

[@jimmyd5716]

@@DarkLeviathan8 hes saying top melee players could pick up pm and beat them relatively easily and quickly. and hes not wrong.

[@cottonmather8146]

@@DarkLeviathan8 ? PM is more clunky compared to Melee. Everything in Project M is so free and janky. Melee is definitely smoother and tighter in execution than PM.

[@DarkLeviathan8]

@@jimmyd5716 That I doubt. They would become really good really fast, but they wouldn't beat the top players relatively easily. It's like there's an hostility between the communities but the truth is most of the time it's literally just Leffen being Leffen. We get it big Lef. It's M2K that was right, you guys truly are the the God of Everything lmao Well, it looks like they don't learn THAT quickly. I remember the "melee vs smash community" ultimate crew battle at summit.. that was sad to watch.

[@rorydillon7572]

Brings me such joy to see top players making PM videos once more.

[@goldsage4722]

Honestly would love to see leffen win a pm tournament but i dont think it would be anywhere near as easy as he thinks. The pm meta has developed and evolved a lot since he played in tournaments. This isnt 2015 and this isnt melee. It wouldn't be free

[@plastickkerorolm4889]

Cough cough look at lunchables vs m2k. The set wasnt even close

[@goldsage4722]

@@plastickkerorolm4889 the most recent set i can find is from like 4 years ago so i really dont see what point your trying to make here and even if m2k had beat him recently lunchables retired like over a year ago and barely plays anymore. he hasnt been ranked for like 2 years. Try again

[@plastickkerorolm4889]

Super bit war yeah was 4 years ago but you can even see m2k was sooo lost vs lunchables. The meta is sooo different and like I said lunchables 3-0 m2k I really think if leffen went against someone vs lunchables or hyperflame or even gallo, he'd get bodied

[@goldsage4722]

@@plastickkerorolm4889 oh i get what your saying now. I thought you were saying i was wrong cause i thought you were talking about that one set m2k won way back in like 2014 but yeah i 100% agree. Leffen doesnt really seem to get it. Honestly i think him winning a major after one year of experience isnt all that farfetched but he wouldn't get top 8 at his first major id bet my life on that claim. The last pm tournament mango entered he got washed

[@cottonmather8146]

Leffen said it would take a year of dedication for him or any top Melee player to start taking names and getting top 4's in PM majors. That's not unrealistic. Most PM players don't practice with the same intensity as Melee players because there's no reward to spending so much time on the game.

[@talkingbenson5487]

ugh, no offense leffen but why do the top melee players always have to be so condescending towards PM. Armada said such stuff about PM as well a few years ago - along the lines of: "I never practiced it and still was the best" In Armadas Case, well he was pretty good BACK THEN yeah, but which majors did Leffen win in PM? If he did, please tell me because I didnt find anything on Liquipedia for example Also, I'd argue the player base was not as established back then. Nowadays, there is Thunderzreign, Lunchables, Switch .... Fact is, most Melee Players played PM when it was essentially not completed - and you could argue when PM was at its biggest as well. Maybe it had more viewers back in the 3.0 days but in 2018 there was the biggest tournament in terms of participants. The Prize Pot was also one of the hightest. Nontetheless, I would gladly see Melee Players entering a PM tournament nowadays, but all they do is talk. But then they say THEORETICALLY they could win it, because it requires zero practice, well if the game is so freakin easy, why not enter a tournament and get some easy money?

[@r.i.petika829]

TalkingBenson cause he doesn’t care and ultimate exist

[@CloneHat]

Lol it’s not theoretical. The standard is way higher in Melee, plus we’re talking about Leffen who can pick up and play at top level in vastly different games

[@mawillix2018]

It was 5 or 6 years ago I think, when Leffen won in PM.

[@TakumiJoyconBoyz]

@@mawillix2018 If that were true then it'd be on Liquidpedia. I'm starting to think he meant a random 3.0 local that doesn't even get taken into account of Power Rankings. I can find massive stats from dozens of other Melee players from around that time but nothing for Leffen. Honestly, with how many other and far better Melee players at the time were playing PM, it'd be nearly impossible for Leffen to win a real tournament back then. He was a joke compared to the top 6 at the time and they all pretty much played, as well as people like ZeRo.

[@mawillix2018]

@@TakumiJoyconBoyz Huh, so Liquipedia lists the event, but upon clicking on it, it lists only the rankings for Melee Singles and Doubles, and conveniently only mentions Project Melee without listing the rankings. Hey, they even mention that Leffen got second in both Melee singles and Melee doubles. liquipedia.net/smash/DrømmeLAN_4.5

[@huntudown4]

'Couldn't even keep your game alive'

[@Thebassmark]

HBox and leffen at same subscriber count

[@saricubra2867]

*Project +(M), the best Smash game that Nintendo doesn't want you to know* .

[@ashedead5158]

I think thunder punch was designed for tech chasing but its eh It looks cool tho

[@boyboy2000ful]

I see, so they changed PM to stand for Project Massive copyright issue instead of Project Melee.

[@Creepo_J]

Why isn't Banjo has a "fair" f-air like knuckles

[@Just.Kidding]

regarding mewtwo's weight, saying it in a dumb voice doesn't make it invalid. you're saying there's no reason for them to make him heavy, but you have it backwards. he IS heavy, and smash made him super light for no reason. him being floaty but still heavy reinforces the idea that he's a powerful psychic and levitating around as opposed to just weighing nothing and floating. saying "who cares what the pokedex says" is just another way of saying "who cares about the source material?". besides, pokedex entries aren't some obscure references, it's the MAIN source of info for like every pokemon. everybody agrees melee ganon shouldn't have been a falcon clone since it's nothing like him or his home series - so why should mewtwo be the 7th lightest (tied with KIRBY) in the *entire game* despite canonically standing 6'7" (2m) and weighing 269lbs (122kg)? meanwhile pikachu is canonically 13.2lb (6kg), but somehow the same weight as mewtwo in smash? even with all that aside, it would balance him better.

[@dylankacam]

As someone who loves ultimate all I can say is project + is sick and I love how it’s melee like

[@Atr0]

You should play against Plup 😎

[@Yosh4761]

Plup would shit on him lmao he's played PM quite a bit since the scene died down.

[@gsai64]

Plup is probably the best PM player in the world

[@ShadowMark3_]

Haunted Ship from Sonic Rush?

[@sel7506]

"you couldn't even keep your game alive.. how would you keep your game alive" I'm dead ahahaha and I like p+

[@VergilSFD]

"You couldn't even keep your Game alive. How you gonna keep your Job alive?" - Leffen

[@GoronsCave]

@Hermaphrodeity Yeah it was CnD because it got more popular then all the Nintendo licensed smash games. Got more viewers, more prize money, more entrants. Basically shat on Nintendo so hard they had to shut it down and instead of hiring the Devs to help create their next game like many other companies have, Nintendo just CnD it. In short Nintendo have no idea what they are doing and doesn't look like they ever will.

[@SilasChinsen]

"Marth has a huuuuwd" Swedish accents endearing AF < 3

[@farleydbear]

its tradition to hate on smash players that havent seen the light.

[@The_DGO]

PM is a fun game. we can't devote as much time to smash in the PM community b/c you can't make a living in it. As a PM player with a fox problem, but also someone who plays fox, I can tell you fox is not very good in PM, but still gets the job done. I play PM over melee because I don't want to be playing against my most disliked matchup constantly (fox), and no character in melee really works for me (I play ZSS, Ike, and G&W).

[@freddiesimmons1394]

Do you really think melee fox is a well designed, reasonable character that you can balance a game around? Ok guy

[@Alienrun]

He is. The game is called Melee! :P

[@freddiesimmons1394]

@@Alienrun you just cant make 40 characters who are around the level of melee fox without making even more "jank". That was the point of the nerfs

[@freddiesimmons1394]

Ideally, they wanted the characters to be more like in the captain falcon to shiek(minus the chaingrab) range. There is more wiggle room for unique attributes there.

[@ryanpennington817]

Fax i was like 👀 the whole tym

[@Random12347]

7:41 if he only knew

[@mattiasrhawi3361]

I love when he says at 7:45 “Jag skoja ba” while laughing

[@billyhorchel5429]

Mattias Rhawi he’s gotta whisper to himself in Swedish before his brain can translate it to English

[@mattiasrhawi3361]

Joe Maguire it’s kinda funny lol

[@omegamalkior1874]

Wish they included Lyn here

[@drankey1949]

can you try this again but play some other characters

[@uncletaint2010]

Leffen said it right and now I'm pretty sad about PM players getting butthurt about all of this. I thought we were a pretty chill community..

[@mamodokod]

Does it really matter which game they started with if a person plays melee and PM they're still a PM player...

[@alanwott8226]

Brawl made some characters look more realistic than cartoons

[@alexdraco5395]

Yo my boy mangachu is there at 10:44

[@riggles]

The lack of colors with the brawl style is so unfitting to the source material, it's quite an eyesore. Wish they really would use saturated flatter texture. Everything just looks like it was mixed with a lot of dark gray...

[@and...and..]

Some of the custom stages/characters actually look great imo, like Knuckles vs Ivysaur on the SSE FD 2:33 I could live w everything looking this good minimum. The FoD alts are other great examples, Bowsers Castle is another favourite of mine. Retexture characters like Mario/Link/Bowser/etc, their gritty textures don't look as good as say Knuckles and his bright colours for example.

[@orbital1950]

7:38 Why leffen have to fucking SLAUGHTER this man lmfao.

[@torchite0725]

I've seen you play mewtwo on PM before. It's awesome to see you come back to PM. There are hidden extra stages on P+ btw

[@benvencill7884]

I play mostly PM and I completely agree with the stance here

[@knives26]

I have a switch and im curious bout this game im a tekken player btw.

[@screweduptx512]

He's just Terry. See, he got a burrying power dunk.

[@freddiesimmons1394]

"Why didnt Nintendo think of that" No shit

[@FootLooseAngel]

So glad Leffen could come down from on high to tell pm players they dont know anything about their own game. Where would we be without his in-depth knowledge

[@screweduptx512]

Woah I've never heard Leffen speak before

[@ZNZbane]

imagine if the other PMCC characters got into P+, Lyn would be busted as fuck lmao

[@michaelvandevusse3728]

It’s actually techboy who beat drephen. Best higher ranked melee player would probably be morsecode. Who is like top 20 in pm and 41 in melee. Techboy beat drephen in melee though but isn’t top 100 because he hasn’t entered many big melee events really. He is top 3 best player in pm though

[@BoltTheEmolga]

Junebug?

[@michaelvandevusse3728]

Zoruastrianism hey man I know about Junebug too. It’s just hard to list all of them. Tbh though for the longest time I thought plup had started on pm then went to melee. Or at least for awhile he was bigger in pm than in melee I think

[@michaelvandevusse3728]

Strongbad did that 17:29 he complained about how squirtle wasn’t a smash character after dirtboy smoked him.

[@freddiesimmons1394]

1)sounds like strongbad 2) squirtle is more of a situation than a character

[@Chawinyaw]

I never understood what he meant by that

[@freddiesimmons1394]

@@Chawinyaw it's like playing a mini game. It doesn't feel like playing smash in the same way

[@michaelvandevusse3728]

Freddie Simmons see I don’t know the matchup or really much at all about the character, but I would still say that that is quite an oversimplification of a much more complex query to be solved

[@michaelvandevusse3728]

The query or problem being fighting against p+ squirtle.

[@ricardoludwig4787]

19:20 every pm player has just commited suicide

[@blackfang0815]

Wait, did Leffen not know about Mewtwo being able to attack out of his teleport if he doesn't float? He seemed to be confused about why Mewtwo is so good. Also, Fox is the PM version of Sm4sh Greninja.

[@and...and..]

Was literally just thinking that. "Well if DK can kill off a single grab we should probably nerf Fox to balance things out"

[@Commander034]

Not true at all. Fox has 4 completely insignificant nerfs in PM. 1. Shine spike doesn't work at 0%, instead it starts around 20%. 2. Laser damage decays from 3% to 1% over distance. 3. Upsmash had an extremely tiny nerf to its knockback. 4. If you up b directly down into the stage and bounce off of the stage there is more lag than melee.

[@naskue4187]

I FUCKIN AGGRRRRRREEEEEE. HIT AND ANIMATION EFFECTS IN BRAWL ARE

[@kingdedede333]

King Dedede

[@itsyaboi1245]

Virgin

[@IIIISai]

lmaooo when he said brawl was ugly 1:40

[@the34zydc.64]

As much flack as Leffen catches for his opinions now, he's certainly a lot more diplomatic about it than he use to be. He's a lot better about prefacing his stronger opinions without being disrespectful. Unfortunately, I believe people think he's being disrespectful because he has strong opinions, which isn't really true.

[@Chawinyaw]

It's that he's very strong with his opinions and mixed a lot of criticism in with them. He's better, but I think he just gets a kick out of being a little harsh

[@the34zydc.64]

@@Chawinyaw Fair enough. I don't know if it's really true that the devs are biased when it comes to Fox. I'll say that I played fox in P+ and he feels like a low tier, and Leffen seems to claim he spoke to the devs personally. So maybe he's being honest, maybe he's exaggerating. lol

[@jeffjeff9037]

My only issue is that his jump is so short

[@joshstead6078]

Is there still much of a PM community? I played a bit 2 years ago and loved it but don't know if it's worth getting into now or if I should stick with melee

[@rafaelblackman9879]

A Marth f-air that stomps is also an Ultimate Mario f-air with more range

[@Creepo_J]

Why does everyone have ➡⬇↘🅱

[@hebogumbo674]

Because they need nerfs

[@theimprovedbore550]

it took me a second to realize that when he said "knuckles is better than melee fox" he meant "knuckles is better than fox in this game"

[@Saskaruto16]

I'm pretty sure he meant Melee Fox, not PM Fox. You could literally buff PM Fox back up to be as good as Melee Fox, and most of the top tier PM characters would still stomp him. Knuckles isn't even the best, he's just pretty strong. But he has Melee Fox level combos, kill power, more recovery mixups, etc. Then you have characters like Mewtwo who are just in another tier of insanity, way above where Melee Fox every got to.

[@mattforbes3670]

You haven't played PM since 3.0, you dont know what you're talking about anymore

[@m0002856]

PM player by preference here and also super duper late comment but like yeah: I don't know they decided to give every non former melee top tier either Falco level combos or Jigglypuff "I'm going to carry you into the blast zone with Bair and make it back" maneuvers and then decide Fox is still a problem. Like yes, I main Marth so he's still a "problem" for me, but then you have other characters that can make the Fox matchup look like the Sheik v Bowser matchup in melee. Also also also: nerf freaking everybody's recoveries >.> I've daired a Mewtwo at ledge at 50% and then came back with just their double jump >.>

[@hebogumbo674]

As a knuckles main I can say they need to buff knuckles a lot for him to be better than captain falcon as falcon is the same character but better in every way. Especially for when he's getting hit and his recovery. Also knuckles is one of the slowest characters on the game so make him maybe a little faster than captain falcon then I could maybe win some games

[@mechashadow]

3:50 need that Pokémon tcg remix

[@polar8925]

Junebug was the best at PM...in 2016. The best player at BOTH games right now would be Morsecode762. Just for comparison’s sake, seeing as Hbox entered tournaments as recently as SnS5 and didn’t do outstandingly well.

[@ryanpennington817]

17:15 not lyin

[@plastickkerorolm4889]

Let me see leffen vs lunchables. It would be a riot. Just look at m2k vs lunchables and lunchables was playing bad.

[@thepoobandit2850]

Does the widescreen look that good on console

[@icekream1268]

Wait Is meteor cancel in p+ I've played it and still don't know 😔

[@sauzeefy]

yes

[@LifenKnight]

is it possible for someone send me a link to a safe Brawl ISO, because i don't want to get viruses

[@scs44444]

vimms lair

[@Olewastaken]

INTERESTING CAMPOSITIONING LEFFEN

[@ember_sprt3536]

Where is shadow?