Langfiles Ep. 13: Catalan VS. Italian

The main language of Italy: Italian! The main language of Eastern Spain (and part of Sardinia): Catalan! Let's look at them to see how similar they are. Special Thanks go to Chris Tur for his Catalan (Valencian) samples, and David Brignolo for his Italian samples.
1st Song, Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (Super Mario World) - Athletic Theme (A_A_RonHD Remix)
2nd Song, New Super Mario Bros. - Overworld (Qumu Remix)
3rd Song, Trudermark - Krusty Spring Pizza Zone
All music and images used in this video are not mine, besides the frames I made, and all belong to their respective creators as they appear in this video.

[@seid3366]

*Sidenotes 2:30 Catalan uses the umlaut (ï, ü) to distinguish words from not being pronounced with G, and to distinguish the vowels being pronounced separately, not as a diphthong 4:40 Catalan uses the simple past as well, but that's more literary: "Ahir, parlí amb la meva tia." 6:14 *Canzone

[@cister4708]

In my dialect the simple past is usually the preferred casual way of speaking, even tho in most places it's not even understood

[@seid3366]

@@cister4708 Interesting to hear the simple past is still used in speech, since the Periphrastic Past is used more

[@ningunores9100]

Simple past is used in the south of Països Catalans, in the País Valencià, and in some parts of the Balearic islands. In Catalan Massa also exists as mass (as Continental mass). In Catalan Dar exists too, same as Italian Dare, but is less used or archaic, maintained in phraseology (Més val un té que dos te daré, Déu-n"hi-do)

[@cister4708]

@@ningunores9100 al país valencià tan sols l'he sentit a la Ribera, els meus companys de pis em deien si compartia pis abans amb Jaume Roig 😆

[@maxmoix6823]

those false friends arent really like that, because the meaning the italian gives is also used in catalan, i mean that the word in catalan has both definitions

[@ltubabbo529]

the same thing goes the other way around, for example "però" in Italian it also means "but"

[@mikescher9266]

Excellent. As someone who just moved to Italy from Barcelona, and for whom neither of these languages is native, this is very useful. Thanks.

[@seid3366]

No problem!

[@paticubellsricart5961]

Great video!!! I have always been conscious of that! So so close languages! Thanks!!

[@felipesuarezva]

Excellent video!! I always think of these features and it’s good to know that someone has made a video containing all of it. Currently I am learning Catalan, my fifth Romance language, so I am looking forward to seeing more of your content!

[@seid3366]

Thanks. Lots of these ideas come into my head, and I see if many people have compared them, so it's the more out there ideas I try to do.

[@Mutxarra]

Nice video! Just one caveat: in catalan the perifrastic past (vaig fer) is used for any action taking place in a temporal period that's already finished. If the relevant period is "last year", "yesterday", "last week", "three years ago" etc we use the perifrastic past exclusively. The construction "he parlat" is reserved for temporal periods we are still in, like "today", "this/the current year", "this/the current century". So the phrase "Ahir (yesterday) he parlat..." is not something a native speaker would say.

[@seid3366]

Got it, got it

[@robertaiudi6521]

as an italin speaker i find catalan is similar to italian dialects

[@RoderickVI]

Gallo-Italian languages like lombard are very similar, and italo-dalmatian ones like napolitan or sicilian have catalan influence from being ruled by aragon

[@robertaiudi6521]

@@RoderickVI yes! i learned Abruzzese and it has so many Spanish words..the single letter articles also are similar to southern Italian dialects. a tavola u libru. etc. :) cool

[@RoderickVI]

@@robertaiudi6521 Well I don't know about "spanish" influence, as the Aragonese in southern italy spoke primarily catalan. But I suspect after the 1600s a lot of Spanish speakers might have moved in too

[@edoardofoscarini8163]

True! I'm from Vicenza and "massa" for example is "too much" for us like catalan

[@ningunores9100]

Catalan language is also spoken in the independent state of Andorra and the in France in the extreme-south territory of Pyrénées-Orientales. In all France, especially in the south, there are gypsy communities speaking catalan as native language.

[@blackgionny1190]

"Però" e "ma" in italiano hanno lo stesso significato, sono intercambiabili

[@Ylyan_VL]

El mateix pasa amb el català

[@cister4708]

Moltes gràcies per deixar-me participar en el video. Sóc Chris, aquest és el meu canal de youtube

[@seid3366]

I moltes gracies per l'ajuda en Chris.

[@kuk2394]

Oi q ets Valencià? Es teu accent em sona molt a Valencià xd

[@cister4708]

@@kuk2394 ho posa a la descripció, més valencià que la paella.

[@kuk2394]

​@@cister4708 HAHAHAHA es nota es nota, representant caseta com toca B) jo som ben mallorquí.

[@cister4708]

@@kuk2394 NO a la centralització dels països catalans! He de dir que l'accent més bonic em pareix el salat, la veritat

[@carmensandoval3685]

Que feliz soy entiendo inglés italiano y por supuesto el catalán (soc de Bolivia)

[@Giuseppe-rs6hk]

però en italiano también significa "but", otra manera de decirlo es " ma" pero no es un falso amigo

[@jinengi]

If you want to compare Catalan to Aragonese (sister languages) I know both languages so feel free to reach out too. Btw why is the Catalan speaker screaming every single word pfhahshsh

[@riccardousai9973]

8:10 in Italian we can also say "mi aggrada" but it's like formal or not used a lot

[@seid3366]

Yeah, I've never heard that one before

[@channalbert]

Wow! That's very interesting, because in Catalan we can also say "Em plau qualque cosa" "Mi piace qualcosa" but it's rather formal. Actually, to say "please" we say "si us plau"; literally, "if you so please".

[@lucasbatista1453]

@@channalbertWait. “Si us plau” means “please”, not “thank you” (gràcies/merci).

[@channalbert]

@@lucasbatista1453 Yep, sorry I was translated into English half-braindead quickly as I was typing. Thanks for the correction!

[@albertoferraris5421]

In Italy we have the verb "Aggradare" with the same meaning of piacere. It is common in high literary language or it could be used in sarcastic phrases.

[@DoubleWhopperWithCheese]

The money thing shocked me cause in Cornish the word for penny is "Diner". An Video da yw!

[@AvrahamYairStern]

It's quite interesting that Italian is closer to Català than French or Spanish

[@rafaelrandom500]

It's very close (85% vs 87%)

[@RoderickVI]

Just because french has more germanic words, because in all other regards french and catalan are closer. Specially formal french when written down. Pronunciation is the main barrier

[@franz9573]

@@RoderickVI but the language closest to Italian is French, neither Catalan nor Spanish. Italian and French have about 89% of the same words, but the biggest difference is the pronunciation. French has no more Germanic words than Italian or spanish, most Germanic words are used by almost all Romance languages the word for war: Guerra (Spanish and Italian) guerre (French)

[@mroboe1032]

Also worth noting for Pronouns: 3 Singular where you have Catalan ELLS & ELLA contrasted with Italian LUI & LEI, older literary Italian uses EGLI & ELLA ( and similar sounding words in Southern Italian Dialects) The Catalan pronouns would be recognizable by all Italians. Similarly 3 Plural where you have Catalan ELLS & ELLES and Italian LORO, older literary Italian has forms like ELLI or EGLINO. Here again the Catalan form (either written or spoken) would be recognizable by Italians.

[@seid3366]

Do other languages of South Italy have pronouns closer to Catalan than Italian?

[@mroboe1032]

@@seid3366 I am not an expert on this and not sure of spelling, however in Sicilian when comparing 2 Singular between Catalan and Italian, there is the word 'Tu' in Sicilian which is the identical informal for both. However the formal 'Vos' in Catalan (where the Italian equivalent is 'Lei') compares with 'Vossia' in older Sicilian and Calabrian. Also the Plurals 1 & 2 in Catalan ('Nosaltres' & 'Vosaltres') are often expressed as 'Noiautri' and 'Voiautri' in older Sicilian.

[@ObvsCam93]

Catalan also has 'llur/llura' and 'llurs/llures' as cognates for 'loro' but it is mainly literary. Italian and Catalan (especially Western dialects) are highly mutually intelligible.

[@kame9]

@@seid3366 Lors its rarely used in catalan Els possessius àtons són els següents: Masculí singular: mon, ton, son Femení singular: ma, ta, sa Masculí plural: mos, tos, sos Femení plural: mes, tes, ses

[@diegone080]

In italian we have Egli and Ella for the third person, but we use only Lui/Lei

[@davidbedmarberenguera5882]

In catalan "I spoke" would be "vaig parlar", "he parlat" would be "I have spoken"

[@albertoferraris5421]

In Italy southern italians speaker prefer the simple past (passato remoto) also when they speaks (andai, mangiai, lessi, ecc), Usually, passato remoto is used for action remote in time and passato prossimo for more recent event or "Current" action. In northern italy we use almost always the form auxiliar + verb (passato prossimo), But in general passato remoto is slowly vanishing in spoken language and passato remoto is used more and more. Almost no one say "Tanti anni fa andai in Spagna" but "Tanti anni fa sono andato in Spagna". It is not correct but this is the common use.

[@MC-jw7ny]

as a native speaker of Italian and German and as a speaker of Spanish and French, what gives me most headache in learning Catalan is the periphrastic past (example "La gata blanca va dormir" - "anar + dormir" is like the French futur proche.) Lots of confusion and exercises ahead for me! :-) PS: italian: canzone, not: canzione. "però" in italian is not a false friend, it means "but", it does not mean 'however.

[@anthony17mapoy46]

2:30 In Italian, we always use the letter é at the end of some words like perché, poiché, and finché. However, the letters a, i, o, and u with an acute accent are less frequently used. Did you know? The letter d between two vowels in Catalan is pronounced as 'ð', but in Italian it's pronounced 'd.'

[@SupaMarioG]

Alot of those cognates seem synonymous. Nice background music.

[@diegone080]

Catalan is spoken in a city in Sardinia, Alghero

[@user-yc6yl8ch3y]

"Ahir he parlat" doesn't sound quite well because "ahir" implies that the time of action is already past and "he parlat" that the action is still connected to the present. It should be the periphrastic past that you present afterwards: "ahir vaig parlar". Also, there are several things presented as differences that are not exactly different, like "però" in catalan also means however with the same use as in italian

[@antoniboixadosbisbal137]

It shoul be "ahir vaig parlar", yes.

[@matteo-ciaramitaro]

I do want to point out però can also be used like but. And the the original italian third person pronouns ello, ella, elli are widely known by italians and are found in literature. So even though this has changed, it's still understandable

[@emanueltiberio928]

in italian we have the verb AGGRADARE (to like) and PIACERE (to like), they are synonyms, even if we use the verb PIACERE always, because AGGRADARE it's too formal, sounds ridiculous

[@Roger-ph8og]

In catalan is the opposite. AGRADAR is the normal verb used, both in formal and informal speaking. You can also use the verb PLAURE, but it is too informal and it sound like medieval talking.

[@janie7242]

Interesting comparison! languages were influenced by each other for certain.😉🤔

[@seid3366]

Catalan reached Sardinia, Sicily and Naples, so there was plenty of time for some influence to be imposed on not just standard Italian but also the various languages in those regions (Neapolitan, Sicilian, Sardinian etc.)

[@liorsultanov2970]

The style is very similar to Langfocus.

[@tyrantabyss]

Small typo at 6:14 - the italian word for song is canzone, not canzione. The pronunciation is correct, though.

[@MatiLuengo]

I thought for a moment it was a Langfocus video xD

[@seid3366]

It would have Paul posing in the thumbnail; and he doesn't have an episode counter.

[@michaelhalsall5684]

According General Franco, Catalan was a "dialect" of Castillian Spanish. Not so! Obviously Catalan is closely related to Italian. Perhaps it is Spanish without the Moorish influence.

[@antoni-olafsabater9729]

Or Spanish is Catalan with arabic influence ? No, no way ! The simple fact is that Spanish and Portuguese are “free-lance” latin languages whereas the others grew quite together , pretty similarly, but for Romanian.

[@RoderickVI]

Not really. Catalan is gallo-romance (like french), whereas castilian and portuguese are ibero-romance. Even if arabic influence was removed from castilian, they would still be very different. Catalan, Occitan and Northern Italian languages are extremely similar

[@KertPerteson]

Interessante.

[@michele3900]

Good video but però means but or however. But and however in English are also almost synonyms as well. It's not a false friend. We also have aggradare even if it's not used much, so it is 100% understandable

[@Kurdedunaysiri]

Are not but and however the same ?

[@be6302]

I think pero in Italian means but im quite sure

[@ningunores9100]

*vostè (plural: vostès) is a castilianism for Vós (plutral: vosaltres).

[@seid3366]

Is there a native Catalan word for that?

[@ningunores9100]

@@seid3366 Vós is the formal and respectful pronoun to use with strangers, superiors in age or hierarchy.

[@cister4708]

Que jo sàpiga vosté és tan sols una contracció de vostra mercè. No cap castellanisme sinó una forma genuïna.

[@seid3366]

@@cister4708 Gracies pel'aclariment

[@ningunores9100]

Vostè no ve de Vostra mercè en català, sinó de Usted que ve de Vuestra merced EN CASTELLÀ.

[@lainfamia8949]

I am catalan and I learnt some italian just by hearing, lol, maybe catalan is the more western italian dialect xD. But i never studied it deeply, I've been in Italy and I can make me understood everything by mixing italian, catalan and castellano with "italian based sound"..

[@seid3366]

Catalan (Occitano-romance) is closer to the Gallo-Italic languages of northern Italy (like Piedmontese, Ligurian, Lombard etc.), so it makes sense that it'd sound like a "western Italian dialect"

[@abraxas1983]

peró in italian and catalan means the same. however is tuttavia

[@lugo_9969]

Currently beginning to learn italian. Because i am already fluent in french & spanish.....i expect to eventually get a bonus understanding of catalan for free....ie without having to work it. After getting to B2 italian, i plan to learn Romanian. Again, romanian will get me closer to catalan....without ever buying a catalan book. 😂

[@FrightfulAccountant]

A catalan V is also close to an Italian V I hear. A Spanish V is closer to a B.

[@paolorossi9180]

In italian you can say Lei or Ella.Lui or Egli.Essi or Loro.In italian aggradare,piacere

[@antoni-olafsabater9729]

Really ! Thanks for this info ! 👍🏽

[@BFDIWE]

*canzone

[@ServeraServera0]

To add to the pronouns in Catalan you forgot En and Na

[@IloveRumania]

7:04 Duolingo, anyone?

[@seid3366]

I haven't encountered such in my Duolingo journey.

[@juandiegovalverde1982]

That Catalan pronunciation is not that of Barcelona.

[@seid3366]

Indeed it isn't. Why?

[@juandiegovalverde1982]

@@seid3366 it sounds more like Valencian.

[@seid3366]

Valencian is still Catalan, so I don't see that much difference, besides the accent (including less [ə])

[@juandiegovalverde1982]

@@seid3366 I think that the most representative Italian accent is that of Rome (don´t confuse with romanesco, that is a dialect).

[@davidbrignolo9708]

@@juandiegovalverde1982 The only real representative pronunciation of Italy is what we call “dizione”, which is learnt by actors or people who generally want to appeal many people in their speeches. In this video, the Italian speaker doesn’t speak in dizione, he probably has a slight Piedmontese accents as well (source: I am the Italian speaker)

[@gladysprovenzano4493]

El italiano es un lengua latina , el español, el catalán son lenguas latinas y todas se parecen...no lo saben? El catalán se parece más a la lengua española que al italiano...no saben el español?

[@antoni-olafsabater9729]

Català, italiano, español : Parlar, parlare, hablar Taula, tavola, mesa Molt, molto, mucho Porc, puorco, cerdo Finestra, finestra, ventana Perdut, perduto, perdido Etc, etc, etc Easier to speak than think !

[@paticubellsricart5961]

Santa paciència...si et pica, rasca!

[@SnakeThePatriot]

El grado de parecido es mayor entre catalán e italiano que entre castellano y catalán lo que tiene haber tenido territorios al sur de Italia y haber comerciado con ellos durante más de cinco siglos que al final se mezclan vocablos. De igual forma castellano y catalán no forman parte del mismo grupo de lenguas, pues unas son iberoromances y las otras occitanoromances.

[@paolorossi9180]

Il lessico catalano e' piu' simile a quello italiano

[@diegone080]

@@antoni-olafsabater9729 porco in italian

[@manuelmurillomunoz1446]

El idioma catalán no existe, es aranés, aragonés o dialecto algueres 🤔🤔🤔🤔

[@Ylyan_VL]

Claro

[@antoniboixadosbisbal137]

Lo que tu digas, lumbreras. Que cosas se tienen que leer, por favor😂

[@manuelmurillomunoz1446]

@@antoniboixadosbisbal137 Ponte la barretina y baila la sardana 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@antoniboixadosbisbal137]

@@manuelmurillomunoz1446 hace calor, para usar la barretina. Sardanas las bailo en Perpiñan, cómo tantos otros catalanes del norte de la frontera. A ver si te vas a creer que me humillas con tu tonteria. Au revoire, monsieur!

[@lafamilleerre7733]

Faux ! L'Aranais est de l'Occitan, l'Aragonais... de l'Aragonais, et si l'Alguerès existe, c'est grâce à la langue... catalane. Soit vous êtes de mauvaise foi, c'est-à-dire malhonnête, soit vous êtes d'une ignorance crasse. Faites votre choix !

[@michele3900]

Good video but però means but or however. But and however in English are also almost synonyms as well. It's not a false friend. We also have aggradare even if it's not used much, so it is 100% understandable