Learning Point 454 | U Turns at Mini Roundabouts

[@robshorts]

You can very often tell when a vehicle is going to do a U turn at a mini roundabout by the positioning of the vehicle. They usually approach the roundabout 'wide' .

[@ricequackers]

Yeah most people in my experience are good at this, keep a right indicator on, go extra slow and extra wide. Makes it obvious for everyone.

[@Kieran.Robertson]

And also their speed will be often be lower

[@bombardygamer4248]

My instructor also told me a key way is when they look at you. If they are making eye contact with you it's often because they are intending to come past you and want to make sure you won't pull out in front of them. You'd be surprised how many times this is actually the case.

[@ibs5080]

At around 0:35 of course we couldn't have a mini roundabout clip without seeing another driver go over the middle. And when watching so called "dash cam" channels, often the cammer themselves drives over the middle and then berates another driver. Happily, this doesn't escape the comments section.

[@fetchstixRHD]

Probably mentioned elsewhere but try riding a (motor)bike and go around the paint while clearly indicating right (after all, paint isn't the best surface to be on!) and see how many people are caught out, and even almost telling you that you should go over the paint...

[@ibs5080]

From the flip side, don't forget the last part in the HC that Ashley read out re "And beware of others doing this". I've seen drivers execute this type of U turn at a relatively high speed, almost is if they deliberately want to catch others out.

[@davem9204]

Maybe they are doing it quickly as they know it's an iffy move, so don't want to hold anyone up doing it.

[@PedroConejo1939]

Yeah, this was a staple of some of the dashcam channels I used to watch. In fact, a good half of their clips involved people acting the donkey at roundabouts, which is of course, unfair to donkeys.

[@ibs5080]

@@PedroConejo1939 Too funny re the donkey comparison.

[@broshmosh]

@@davem9204 Which would be weird because doing something risky at high speed is far far worse?

[@davem9204]

@@broshmosh doing something fast reduces their time exposed to danger and impairing others on the road. So it's a balance between the risk of something happening and the risk of the outcome if something does happen.

[@MarkHewitt1978]

My kids school run involves u-turning at a small roundabout that does have a physical island. The vast majority of the time the traffic on the right don't expect me to u-turn and they emerge; but it is no issue as I am expecting them to do that.

[@Shylo2017]

Some mini-roundabouts are more suitable for u-turns than others, I would say. And like you pointed out, if you try to make it obvious and be ready to help those who don't pick up on the clues, then all should be jolly. Providing of course your vehicle has the turning circle capabilities 😅 And an interesting point could be that it might be safer to go left and u-turn on a nearby mini-roundabout than pull out right where it's difficult or not safe. I always have that as an option near me - a frequent route out of my estate could qualify for that manoeuvre.

[@PedroConejo1939]

TBF, same goes for making U-turns at small, regular roundabouts - people don't expect it, so follow the example shown. In particular, signal. Also, of course, beware of others doing it. It's common enough round here where traffic makes it easier and safer to make a right turn by going left and doing some sort of U-turn, sometimes at a small or mini-roundabout.

[@smilerbob]

Indeed which is why the rules preceding 188 should be looked at as well, more importantly watching out for others already on the roundabout. I would like the wording changed about not signaling correctly or at all to also include something about drivers not signalling where you believe they are going, such as a driver continuing to signal right when performing a u-turn or doing a loop of the roundabout after missing the exit Thinking about it, that might also encourage some to continue round rather than making a lunge for the exit…win win I think 👍

[@Bob-r6h1p]

Whenever I do this I roll down the window and use a right arm signal as reinforcement. Most people catch on as it's rarely used.

[@princesspinkblue]

Ive done this too

[@christopherl1864]

Me too, it calls a little more attention to what you're doing. 👍

[@douglasreid699]

i did used to do a U turn at a mini roundabout rather often at previous job (from 1 to 3 times a week) as its was the best place to turn round on that street if iwanted to go to Stirling rather than Falkirk. at least half of the time i am mid U turn and stopping to give way to people not thinking it could happen and entering the roundabout. depending on the mini roundabout lay out, for me it had 3 exits (left, straight ahead, and back on myself), i feel the problem is people indicating right to take the second exit so other drivers are used to that and they see the right indicator and assume they will exit and it is safe to go. i would not indicate right to go straight on and take the second exit but i will indicate if i need to U turn on a mini roundabout. so best practice is to assume they dont expect you to do it, use caution and be able to stop in time if they emerge.

[@rufusgreenleaf2466]

I've seen a bus do a U-turn at a mini roundabout. Still to this day i'm not sure how he did it in one maneuver.

[@andyalder7910]

Look at old maps, it may well have been a trolley bus terminus at one time.

[@thegrowl2210]

There's a 'mini' roundabout near the O2 in North Greenwich that's so incredibly large it's essentially a free for all. Once I saw someone make a right turn on it, going around the island correctly, and the bus I was on made the same right turn, ignoring the island and nearly wiped the guy out.

[@ibs5080]

I've seen other motorists attempt a mini roundabout U turn and found they couldn't do it in one manoeuvre, having instead to execute a 3 point turn. And with busy traffic all waiting.

[@PedroConejo1939]

That's the other side of it: make sure there's room to complete the manoeuvre in one go. I can think of one near me where I wouldn't dream of trying a U-ey.

[@anth4002]

I like that you put the rule extract in the video so we can pause and read it ourselves too, that is much appreciated 👍

[@simp99bird]

This is a great example. Other drivers may assume you are taking the previous exit so this manoeuvre has to be done with caution. I do this regularly at the end of a high street local to me, as do many others, as it puts us on the appropriate side for roadside parking bays near the roundabout. It’s usually dark when I park there to collect a takeaway so I want to be facing the right way.

[@isaacplaysbass8568]

RE: "All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles..." If only all mini roundabouts had as much space around them as in the video from your viewer! I've encountered quite a few mini roundabouts over the years that are retro-fitted to smaller urban roads at traditional junctions, that are often WAY too small for it to be possible to avoid the markings. It's hard enough to avoid the markings doing a regular 1st or 2nd exit It'd be practically impossible to do a U-turn on some of those without shuffling back and forth, or mounting kerbs, unless riding a bicycle, or a unicycle.

[@JaneAustenAteMyCat]

Yeah there's a ridiculously placed one in my town. Whoever's idea to place it there and not a metre away is an @rse

[@davem9204]

I do keep banging on about this, but the original idea for mini-roundabouts, wasn't that they were really roundabout that you go around, it was really about the priorities being equalised for all the joining roads (rather than one main road with minor roads giving way). The blob was really just a symbol to show what the junction was. Having watched far too many dashcam videos on there, so many mini-roundabout incidents seems to occur when drivers decide to take a 2nd+ exit but swing wide around the blob and another vehicle assumes they are heading for the 1st exit and pulls out.

[@rustydusty2992]

@issaacplaybass8568 Helps to have a good turning circle, my first car was a Triumph herald excellant turning circle of 27.5 feet.present motor skoda karoq pretty good as well for a larger car.

[@matthewsmith1162]

It's a great learning point again for me, thank you. The mini-roundabout in the video is an example of a nice, clear and well-marked roundabout, with enough space for most smaller vehicles to pass round without driving over the markings (unlike the small hatchback coming from the right in the vid). There are a few mini-roundabouts near me where there isn't even adequate space for a car to use it without driving over the white circle, or where it would be impossible to do a U turn without doing some sort of three-point turn. Usually these have been added at problem T-junctions with no attempt to add some extra space has been made.

[@funkyuk1]

Slow speed & watch out for others many won’t be expecting a U Turn. i’ll often wind my window down and chuck and old fashioned hand signal into the manoeuvre 👍🏼

[@PaulFisher-uj9vb]

Same here.

[@ibs5080]

Like many driving scenarios, this is very much "Situational". I also remember Ashley coined the phrase "Just because you can doesn't mean you should". Of course, there are always exceptions and this video was a good example. The issue is when folks decide to do a mini roundabout U turn when it's busy and / or in a manner and speed that truly catches others out.

[@JaneAustenAteMyCat]

I've had someone beep their horn at me when he was racing around a mini roundabout and expecting me to anticipate that he was going back on himself. I've been more careful ever since

[@kenbrown2808]

I couldn't do that in my daily driver. the steering geometry won't allow that tight a turn. just passing two exits requires me to play games with angles. (doesn't help that our local mini roundabout has an obstacle to stop people making it an overabout)

[@wrightwoodwork]

Done a few over the years simply go slowly and be ready to deal with anything that arrises. If someone is going extra slow they are probably going to do a u turn

[@Slaeowulf]

A classic should vs must scenario. Perfect example from your viewer, too. As risk increases, speed should reduce.

[@smilerbob]

Thank you 👍 A few people have been caught out by the wide angle lens thinking I am travelling at warp speed and performed an emergency stop without any forward planning. I had seen the road sweeper, I slowed and was prepared for them to continue in front if they couldn’t stop Quite worrying there are also people suggesting to stop half way through a u-turn and deliberately concede priority rather than being slow and _ready_ to concede if necessary

[@thomaselliot2257]

Can't remember the last time I did a u turn at a mini roundabout, but I'm sure I have. I DO have the mindset to do it slowly and cautiously, with a signal, and be prepared to give way, if need be. But, a good reminder to be cautious on approaching when you see someone on the roundabout in the process of going round it.

[@fetchstixRHD]

If I need to, and there are other people already there, I'll try and let them go, and give a "spinny" signal ("go on, I need to turn around here"). That usually should give enough communication about what I'm about to do to others, and gives me a bit more space. (On a related note, can people stop using turning circles in cul-de-sacs for parking? Makes things much more difficult and can involve having to reverse all the way out of the road and into a main road, which isn't ideal for many reasons, especially if the view you get behind you is nonexistent...)

[@smilerbob]

@@thomaselliot2257 Surely it should be accelerate onto the roundabout quickly and complete the u-turn without regard for others entering the roundabout as it is “my priority” 🤭 Hope you are keeping well and Storm Bert didn’t cause too many issues for you

[@thomaselliot2257]

​​@@smilerbobI'll take your advice,Bob. Sound as always 😊 Never saw Bert. He didn't show up where I come from. If he did, he came and went with a whimper. There was some shallow snow and ice last Thursday, but by Friday, it had all gone. There was some wind on Saturday, I think, but not that much.

[@smilerbob]

@@thomaselliot2257 Good to know Bert left you alone. We had some strong wind and plenty of rain with some localised flooding along some rural roads. I don’t think the snow frok earlier in the week helped with the flooding as that melted a lot quicker than usual generating a slight overflow effect. That all seems to have mostly dissipated now

[@RichardSmith-h2m]

A similar thing can also be said about "full-size" roundabouts as well. I don't often do a whole way round a round about but when I do I always take it cautiously & that's even with making sure my indicator is still showing I am contuing round the RA and then it gets switched to the other direction when I pass the last junction before the one I want to take.

[@laceandwhisky]

Had this, and a bus had to brake hard, causing his passengers to get thrown about. I was indicating and taking it wide n slow. He, of course, should have waited to be sure it was safe not just assume 😊

[@robg521]

You have mentioned before about looking at the other car’s front wheels Ashley. I find it help in this scenarios as well … as you pull up at a roundabout if you see the other cars front wheels remain in the same position [at the same angle] you know that they are going to continue coming around the roundabout.

[@smilerbob]

Speed, caution, awareness and readiness The four basic things for any manoeuvre and the four things that most forget when driving For context for others, I perform a u-turn slowly here as I know there is appropriate room on the roundabout to complete the manoeuvre and it is so I am able to park along the road on the left. There are some opportunities to turn around in the other roads but that can be detrimental to flow while completing a turn in the road or turning into side roads. The speed was also slow, the top speed was ~5mph but I was already slowing again upon seeing the road sweeper approaching fast and was actually prepared to yield to the driver on the roundabout but they decided to brake Always be prepared for those that haven’t seen you in any situation and be aware of those also doing the same in front you if you approach a mini roundabout 👍 Take care out there everyone

[@robg521]

Brilliant…. It is similar to when long Lorry’s go wide in order to get around a tight junction or mini roundabout. At 1st glance it looks like they are turning off but then the cab suddenly comes swinging around.

[@_______-]

Have fallen foul of this myself, on a motorbike, as it was the way into the petrol station. A car driver from the opposite direction made the assumption that I'd be turning right and gunned it on the wrong side of the paint while I was making the turn. A right lifesaver and a quick burst of speed saved me from getting wiped out as we came back together. Agree with another comment that a hand signal may have helped here.

[@patrickormerod3472]

driving in blackburn if you ever see a vehicle doing a u turn on a mini roundabout it never ends well. always some kind of kerb mounting, road rage or some other incident

[@RavyDavy]

I'm going to hold my hands up, and admit I almost fell foul of "assuming" a good few years ago. I didn't expect the woman to be doing a full u-turn, I started pulling out. The womans reaction was to smile, and hold a hand up (instead of honking and shouting and swearing at me), and this reaction is what I remember to this day, as well as being more cautious on my own approach.

[@Oligodendrocyte139]

The number 17 bus route in Tilehurst, Reading has a mini-roundabout at its terminus. Fun to watch (if you're a bit sad 😂).

[@andyalder7910]

1961 map shows a circle in the middle of Halls Rd / Park Lane junction so I suspect it was a trolleybus turning circle at one time.

[@Oligodendrocyte139]

​@@andyalder7910Ah. I did wonder about that after I posted the comment.

[@andyalder7910]

@@Oligodendrocyte139 If you are interested then there are photos of the turning circle and even videos, search for London trolleybus 260 Tilehurst. It went on tour in 1967 just before the wires came down. I went to BBB Cafe to check their photos to see if the wires went up Norcot Rd then eBay search for Tilehurst trolleybus because I'm a bit sad.

[@andyalder7910]

@@Oligodendrocyte139 London trolleybus 260 toured Reading in 1967 so there are photos of it using that circle as well as Rdg corporation trolleys on it.

[@Oligodendrocyte139]

@@andyalder7910 Hah, so there are 😀. The hedges have grown a bit since 67 ....

[@WayneTulip-zm9gw]

It’s funny how both Ashley Neal and James Simpkins have made a video on mini roundabouts on the same day! 😁

[@boatman323]

There’s a mini-roundabout not far from Ashley-land where a badly thought out junction nearby results in many drivers doing a U-turn at the roundabout. Apart that is from the drivers who just ignore the prohibition at the junction.

[@andyalder7910]

Oxford Rd, Reading has caution U-turning traffic warning triangles before a couple of mini-roundabouts.

[@grahambonner508]

Speed, positioning and indication are key, but don't expect the other driver to see or understand. if your on a bike, remember that 'A' pillar blind spot and always look for the drivers face/eyes!

[@paulsengupta971]

If I ever make a U-turn at a mini roundabout, I never ever expect vehicles joining from the right to stop, I always go around expecting them to not stop.

[@trdtommy]

This is why we(in norway) Have a rule that say you have to indicate out of a roundabout only.

[@pauljames3357]

A right turn arm signal could help when doing a U turn at a mini roundabout.

[@WayneTulip-zm9gw]

Because of the lack of space on a mini roundabout if you’re doing a u-turn on one you should go very slowly so it gives other vehicles a chance to work out what you’re doing.

[@JamesBond-is5du]

I do not u turn if there is too much traffic. I'd rather go ahead and turn safely from a side street

[@charlesfultondrivinginstructor]

Totally agree with that 👍

[@jpldriver]

😊👍

[@xTerminatorAndy]

yes many people do this. as soon as you enter the mini roundabout, they move off thinking they're clear

[@jed-angler]

Terrific driving by both each was driving for the other the road sweeper wasn't perfect but recognised their mis read and acted 🎉🎉🎉

[@davidvanderklauw]

In Oz we have very few mini-roundabouts. My advice when making a full circuit of a roundabout is to take the final leg with caution and be ready to stop. IMO a driver making a full circuit should be awarded a % of blame in any crash. This should encourage more caution.

[@delcat8168]

Sticking your right hand out is probably a good idea.

[@peaoui165]

I think you should have drawn more attention to the second sentence. "All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles which are physically incapable of doing so." Gotta admit, I wasn't aware of the MUST in that sentence. I thought It said should. TIL

[@grahamnutt8958]

It was a mini adventure 😊

[@smilerbob]

It had me going in circles 😁

[@grahamnutt8958]

​@@smilerbobI prefer Kylie. She was 🎶 Spinning Around 🎶 lol

[@smilerbob]

@@grahamnutt8958 I'm going to go old skool and say Dead or Alive 🎵You spin me right round🎵

[@grahamnutt8958]

​@@smilerbobNot bad, Bob. I'm going to "Squeeze" out a slightly older one....... 🎶 Up The Junction 🎶 That precedes your one by about 6 years 🤣🤣🤣

[@smilerbob]

@@grahamnutt8958 Last one from me for tonight, a little ditty called On The Road Again by Canned Heat 😁

[@shm5547]

Rule 188 is one of the worst rules in the Highway Code, ripe for a rewrite to better convey the legislation that applies to mini-roundabouts.

[@muncus1969]

Surely it's the perfect opportunity to re-enforce the use of the indicator with hand signals?

[@johndd9140]

The mini roundabout in the vid is pretty wide, so cammer was able to do it in one swing. I've come across those that are really tight, where a reverse had to be done 😮

[@MGX93dot]

My first car died on a mini roundabout. I did a U-turn and a lady decided to drive full pelt over the roundabout and smashed straight into my offside wing, totalling my car. Had some dashcam footage and I got a pay out.

[@paul756uk2]

There are 2 roads near me which have a no right turn sign because there's a mini roundabout nearby. Just use common sense and take it easy so you don't instigate an accident. Its another case of preventing an accident though its likely it won't be your fault.

[@burger406]

ive almost been caught out by this, when i was a new driver. -burger40

[@bp19870]

I always indicate before entering the mini roundabout and then place my hazard lights on, I find it has worked wonders because other drivers immediately think “what’s he doing?” And they concentrate on me more. I only ever do U-turns if it is safe to do so though. Sometimes there is just too many hazards knocking about.

[@yaowww]

You shouldn’t do that

[@MarkGodfrey73]

Highway code 116 "You MUST NOT use hazard warning lights while driving or being towed unless you are on a motorway or unrestricted dual carriageway and you need to warn drivers behind you of a hazard or obstruction ahead. "

[@Kieran.Robertson]

Poor use of hazards

[@davem9204]

I've never done a U-ey at a mini-roundabout as that's not they are for, and it's a risky manoeuvre as others aren't expecting it, and a sign of bad route planning. Even if I'm going the wrong way, I'd never want to drive in a way that shows that! :)

[@Zombies8MyPizza]

Yeah I mean, while the highway code doesn't forbid it, surely it's just safer to turn left or right and then turn around somewhere else so you can double-back?

[@Kieran.Robertson]

If you can’t do a U-turn at a mini roundabout should you be driving? Clearly a lack of skill

[@davem9204]

@@Kieran.Robertson I don't think anyone claims they haven't got the ability to do a U-turn at a mini-roundabout, but choose not to as it's not a good thing to do in general.

[@paul756uk2]

Not true. There are 2 roads near me with no right turns BECAUSE there are mini roundabouts close by. In those locations it's actually safer to go round as one junction is near a bridge.

[@Kieran.Robertson]

@@davem9204 It’s a perfectly fine thing to do if you have the ability for it.

[@user-xu5vl5th9n]

Mini roundabouts are the modern version of a "Mexican stand off".

[@leedorney]

RA's have been made into unnecessary over technical junctions, I can't recall, thinking back, of lanes painted on them..

[@ashleyw6728]

Tbf i only do it when no one else is about

[@GiftyBargains]

It's safer to not go around the mini roundabout such as the road sweeper being so close wouldn't had been a problem.

[@paul756uk2]

Sometimes it's unavoidable. There are 2 roads near me which have no right turns BECAUSE there's a mini roundabout nearby.

[@richcolour]

Telling us to avoid doing something which is perfectly acceptable and legal is daft

[@Chigleybus]

The word "avoid" is odd advice. Why would anybody avoid the exit that they might want on a roundabout, regardless of where they've just emerged from? Avoid should be replaced with the words "take extra care".

[@John_B55]

For mini-roundabouts, all I can say is "The Grapes in Formby".

[@Darth_Benga]

Wait. the rule clearly states AVOID doing this. So you shouldn't be doing a U-turn. why are we celebrating someone doing something they shouldn't be doing.

[@Oligodendrocyte139]

Because avoid doesn't mean must not. In the code, MUST means it's backed by law, avoid, should or should not means it's sensible advice.

[@fetchstixRHD]

And the fact it says to "avoid" rather than even a "do not" or "should not" accounts for the fact that there may be locations where it's the only reasonable place you can turn around, e.g. in a larger van or elsewhere would be more disruptive to traffic.

[@paul756uk2]

Because it might be unavoidable.

[@PS-fl7et]

There is no prohibition on performing a u turn on a roundabout and in some instances is the only option available I have exited a car park on a “No right turn” and signs actually tell you to perform a u-turn at the next mini roundabout to pick up another road. The advice is _avoid_ if you can but if you do be aware of others all around you as we can’t be bothered to write the law properly in the Highway Code

[@paul756uk2]

@@PS-fl7et as in my reply here. There are 2 roads near me that have no right turns BECAUSE there are mini roundabouts nearby which actually makes it safer as one is near a bridge and they both aid traffic flow. I only put a succinct reply because I got fed up with repeating myself.

[@larry365]

In my opinion, you viewer was still to fast for this. I frequently uturn at mini-roundabouts and all but completely stop. It's an extremely unpredictable manoeuvre, coupled with a type of junction that lacks discipline at the best of times.

[@larry365]

To add to this, the perfect approach would be to time it so the road sweeper has time to go, doing most of your slowing at the "12 o'clock" position, which shows other drivers youre doing something different

[@smilerbob]

What was the speed of the cammer around the roundabout and what was the speed and stopping in relation to the roadsweeper?

[@larry365]

@@smilerbob You can see in the video what the speed was? The road sweeper still has to perform an emergency stop.

[@smilerbob]

I can see in the video the road sweeper getting caught out by a u-turn and approaching the roundabout too quick What speed would you be doing if you was the cammer?

[@larry365]

@smilerbob Indeed the sweeper was but it's a learning point about how to reduce risk for all road uses, regardless of priority. The cammer obviously succeeded in achieving this, I'm only saying a bit more could have been done. As I mentioned previously, slowing before the exit, at the 12oclock position (relative to the cammers entry) would have done even more to reduce risk, essentially coming to almost a complete stop at or before the second exit. Generally entering super slow and taking it wide also signals to other road users, much the same way one would if u-turning in the road.

[@user10184]

Poorly executed by viewer. 'Should have executed the manoeuvre so as to come in behind the road sweeper, meeting expectations of road users who rely on the highway code.

[@smilerbob]

Poorly executed by travelling slowly, seeing a vehicle approaching at speed and slowing accordingly and then continuing when said vehicle had stopped

[@PS-fl7et]

Poorly executed comment by trying to rewrite the law on road use to sound clever and better than everyone. There was nothing wrong with what the cammer did and it actually appears they were ready to fit in behind if the driver failed to stop. You don’t always need to stop showing signs of incompetence and nervousness, you can safely roll and yield when required