Let's Talk About "Classic Sonic"

[@legoboy7107]

Another problem I see some people have when they complain about Classic Sonic is that Sega seems to have given Classic Sonic a monopoly on 2D Sonic games. Like they treat Classic Sonic and 2D Sonic as the same thing and conflate the two when that's not actually true of course. Meaning there's never going to be another Advance or Rush styled 2D game again, and on the other hand there's never gonna be a 3D "Classic Sonic" game, because that doesn't match the current brand that "2D Sonic games ARE Classic Sonic games." Closest you get is 2D sections in 3D "Modern Sonic" games which isn't at all the same and often just ends up being inferior gameplay-wise.

[@dbomb8825]

Honestly you just describe my problem with classic sonic. Advance gameplaywise was a upgrade because it just gave you more options. It's like playing the second half of the megaman legacy collection like playing 7 and 8 then 9 and 10. You don't see Nintendo taking away mario's wall jump, ground pound, or spin jump do you? In Metroid dread Samus gets a slide kick and In Kirby newer titles you got a dodge if it has multiplayer you can piggyback on other players and do a super move.

[@esdrasImayInotguy3481]

​@@dbomb8825the trasition between 7 and 8 to 9 and 10 is kinda weird specially for newcomers, but still, 9 and 10 are one of the best Classic Mega Man games because they regressed the formula a little bit (I do treat Advance, specially 2 and 3 as more of it's own thing)

[@esdrasImayInotguy3481]

I do want a new 2d Modern Sonic, but there's no dilemma here, both could coexist, I don't think it was even Classic that killed that style of games, but the lack of a portable system that isn't the Switch

[@Jdudec367]

2D sections in the modern games aren`t all inferior gameplay wise but otherwise yeah I see what you mean.

[@randocommando7945]

​@@dbomb8825 Yeah, that's the part that bugs me. The Advance trilogy was basically an evolution of 2D Sonic, adding things like an attack button, Amy's gameplay style, rings increasing your acceleration and top speed, being able to run into springs to use them, and Advance 3's team actions. They might’ve leaned less into the pinball physics as they went on, but Advance 1 recreated them perfectly, and Dimps could've probably gone back to them if they wanted. They likely just weren't interested with Advance 3, and toned them down with Advance 2 for the sake of boost mode. 2D Sonic becoming nothing but Classic means these interesting mechanics and ideas won't see the light of day again. Amy has to conform to a one button control scheme, you can't let characters just run into springs from the side to use them because that's not what the classics did. Cream is a modern character, so she can't be brought back, and same goes for Blaze when thinking about Rush.

[@ackbeans4829]

My personal headcanon for Knuckles is Tikal evicted him so he’d make some real friends

[@existential_narwal9257]

"knuckles you gotta get off the island once in a while..."

[@artey6671]

Ha, funny idea. Or she threw him off Angel Island because she realised he's bad at his job.

[@galten7361]

He's just iconic and that means he'll show up in games when he doesn't do anything notable. Same for Tails and Amy.

[@bluestar5812]

This entire situation could be avoided if they just said that Knuckles has a trained army of chaos on Island Island to protect the Altar in his absence. They already stabilished chaos live in Angel Island. Or they could connect with the events of Frontiers and have Knuckles say he brought some of the Ares' Kocos to his island to help protect the Master Emerald in his absence.

[@artey6671]

@@bluestar5812 Chaos destroyed the master emerald. Why would he protect it?

[@miqwerty]

I always kinda wished that Sonic Boom had gotten better treatment. The idea of an offshoot of Sonic that got to toy around with new concepts and characters and storylines that wouldn't fit or would be too out there for the "main" series to tackle has always sounded like fun.

[@CanalDoRyu]

Sonic Boom kinda wasted that opportunity by restricting itself to just being a Sonic sitcom anyway, I honestly think was ultimately just a waste of time and money on Sega's part

[@jasonblack2477]

Sega ruined it like 06

[@mitch_universe4058]

Maybe if the character designs were better they would be enough to carry a whole universe. Like I would love a new stylistic take on Sonic, like the Sonic riders cover art

[@mrhalfsaid1389]

That was adventure sonic really, that's a good idea but I don't really see the reason for boom sonic past the satAM style storytelling of the media it currently has. You do make a good point though.

[@Josuh]

unrelated but did they ever give Boom Sonic a super form?

[@NerotheGame]

Then there's the narrow, sad slice of us who want Advance Sonic. Modern Sonic with classic Sonic gameplay, ideally in pixel art. Fingers crossed for a Mania Advanced but not holding my breath.

[@yuchun_]

This is actually one of the best reasons to want a new game with the uekawa designs. The Advance trilogy has some of the best animation in the series, and it's a real shame to drop that for 2.5D bollocks. Imagine the longer limbed designs being put in, say, hand drawn animation, being able to do all sorts of smooth flowing moves. Animation is a key component for feedback, and it's untapped potential. It's also noticeable how besides Mania where they copied the Genesis era sprites, the design for Sonic in games like Superstars is missing his edge, it's trying to make him cuter. IDK about anyone else, but I really hate that.

[@kenrichgumanid9235]

Gaming companies only believed in "evolution."

[@Zejgar]

21:52 That's the core issue though. Everything else stems from this, regardless of how justified or overblown the addendums are. Old Sonic games never had this philosophy, they all were "what if Sonic is like this now?", but then they made an explicit separation between the versions, and highlighted it by literally having the two versions as two separate characters in two games.

[@subculturebith1616]

exactly, there is no such thing as classic sonic, santiago is a made up baby sonic that pontac and graff made up for generations in 2011 there is only one sonic with a million different designs

[@Sharpteeth32]

​@@subculturebith1616 Santiago?

[@souptaels]

I like both Sonics. I really don't care, but I feel like Sonic split into two after Generations. The original Sonic grew up to be Modern Sonic, and then there's "Classic" Sonic, a Sonic that never grew out of his past and never went through all those game iterations. So for people saying they "want Sonic back", I think they mean they want Modern Sonic to regress back to his original Genesis days, instead of having two active Sonics. The best and more interesting option would be to keep them split and have any character to appear in any era, like you said. That's just my thoughts tho

[@yoshihammerbro435]

They dont want sonic to evolve, just remain the same as it always was without expanding or fixing any flaws

[@souptaels]

​@@yoshihammerbro435exactly and I think that's just pretty lame. Afaik I don't hear Nintendo fans complaining about a Modern Mario and Classic Mario, probably cause they think that's silly

[@esdrasImayInotguy3481]

@@yoshihammerbro435 That feels a little strawmaning to me... anyway, I'm a big fan of classic Sonic and I'm okay with the split, I think it's a good thing, different groups gets what they want

[@chrisrockett5897]

So it's kinda like Earth 1 and Earth 2 Superman?

[@elmaionesosexo]

​@@souptaels However, Nintendo never made a distinction between "Classic" Mario and "Modern" Mario, even though Mario has gone trought a lot of changes to his design and some personality aspects, he never stopped being Mario, and Nintendo has never tried to sold "Classic" Mario to the public like Sega has with "Classic" Sonic. Nintendo hasn't tried to sell us the chunky more rounded version of Mario from 64 as a "Classic Mario" I'd say that's the issue

[@raivnn8]

I think one reason they won’t push Classic Sonic forward or take elements from Modern Sonic is because a lot of the Classic fans, the ones that say it’s “Sonic without all the bad stuff”, may not be open to the idea of it sharing elements with Modern Sonic, especially story. I think another problem is that what you may be perceiving as the original version of Sonic (multiple Chaos Emeralds, critters talking, things like that) were never things that were really established within Sonic Team as important elements of Sonic, and so members like Iizuka that were there for original Sonic, don’t really see that as original Sonic, because there were probably so many conflicting ideas before Adventure. I think a lot of the smaller details were less established, all that really mattered was the individual story for each game, and the general vibe and feel of Sonic. I think the difference between Sonic and the Ninja Turtles when it comes to the evolution, is that once one evolution of Ninja Turtles is done, it’s done and that’s that. It gets merchandising and the occasional cameo in future versions, but they don’t run congruently. While there are of course multiple Sonic’s now, it’s all generally run and overseen by the same group of people. You can have all these different versions of a comic character because it’s easy to just have a different writer take over that version. You can’t really have that with Sonic, and in the cases where you do it’s in media outside of video games. This is really the first time Sega has gone out of their way to have two distinct versions of Sonic at the same time in video games. I think making all these different video game versions of Sonic is pretty much impossible to do because you need someone to properly run all those different versions. You could have all these different Sonic’s, sure, but you need someone to over see that and I think as it is now Sonic Team is in no place to be running all these different game versions of Sonic. Even when giving them out to other teams, you have to trust that they will be made specifically to the fans taste, because at that point you are feeding a niche and probably won’t make much money already. If the fans hate it, you really aren’t making any money. I think it’s easier to just have Classic and Modern Sonic when it comes to games. I agree that they really hold Classic Sonic back though, which really sucks. Like they keep trying to make another Genesis style Classic Sonic game, when Classic Sonic was evolving beyond the Genesis even back in the day. They should just let Classic Sonic evolve. At this point, since they have been retconning so much recently, it may be easier to just ignore the fact that it has to lead up to Sonic Adventure, and still just claim that it’s younger Sonic, because even if the classic characters did talk or something like that, they wouldn’t change much. Not to mention a lot of the Classic Sonic fans don’t even want them to talk. And to Sega, they still have to be the same characters because it’s a franchise, it’s never going to end with them being any different. Classic Sonic is also known for being lighter on story than Modern Sonic, so I think even if things don’t line up 100% with the Modern timeline, it will never be enough to really cause any big problems story-wise, or be enough to upset the fans of Classic Sonic. I believe Sonic Team should just focus on Classic and Modern Sonic games and those stories, let other media do its own thing and don’t try to connect it to game Sonic.

[@EAting_the_mEAl]

I really started to hate calling him "Classic Sonic" like bro I miss when he was just sonic 😭

[@meno3104]

Same😭

[@CupheadBloxYT]

@@meno3104 No i like the name classic sonic, one problem is just, its too long, but the name doesnt bother me, atleast fan gave him that different name So he can be more reconizeble

[@supermaro2349]

Honestly the whole thing with SEGA constantly trying to keep things “canon” and with how badly they have fucked up the sonic timeline just irks me. Like superstars won’t add a classic shadow cause it’s not canon even though it’s a dlc costume, and with how terrible the actual timeline is, I really just want someone at sega to ditch the idea of everything needing to be connected canocially and go back and fully rewrite the Sonic timeline. Not completely reboot the series but just go back and rewrite it. Fix all the errors, take out games that serve no purpose in the storyline and just fix the disastrous mess of a timelone

[@murilosampaio1264]

Also, for design's sake, I woul love to see how a "Classic version" of shadow would look like

[@derple8524]

I wish for that too but as Silver once said in Forces, "I'm optimistic, but also a realist". This Franchise is so broken it would take a miracle, and I don't wait for miracles, I waited 15 for a miracle and it's not getting any better. SEGA sees this Franchise as a milking cow and any team that works to make a Sonic game is cursed under Sega's very poor management, and the fanbase is very broken up where everyone is against each other every day for what is considered "the one true Sonic" as it feels like SEGA has to pick sides. At least in my opinion that's how I see things. This Franchise is a lost cause in my eyes in terms of what games I play and why I left to pursue other franchises with similar tastes like Spark 3, Rollin Rascal, and Penny's Big Breakaway cause they give me just what I want in 3D speed platforming. And there's plenty more like Freedom Planet, and Pepper Grinder. The media for Sonic isn't the worst as the TV shows are great and I loved the movies. But it doesn't do it for me games wise. Optimistic for Sonic Generations, but previous re-releases show otherwise the quality that game will come out. I know where the direction is going in SEGA'S hands, but that's just a theory, A GAME THEORY, thanks for watching. Praying Sonic Generations comes out well as not only I'm a Nintendo kid so I never played the console version just the 3DS. This game ain't my last chance since SEGA messed that up a long time ago, but I actually want to play this one. Have a great one supermaro2349

[@ORLY911]

Also this might be a hot take, but i think they need to go with a new art direction and redesign all the characters into a new aesthetic. We've had "modern" for 25 years now almost. New designs that put some fresh air into the key art and renders and everything and puts together the best of previous designs with a new spin.

[@atavious2491]

​@@ORLY911 I feel like that was supposed to be the Boom era but it didn't have a lasting impact. Actually it never did. Just give us a classic style game with the modern cast. How difficult can this be!? Why isn't there no classic Shadow in Sonic X Shadow Generations!? If the games aren't going to keep a good timeline well then just do that instead!!

[@crimsonzone8984]

​@@ORLY911doesn't seem like a hot take to me. Pariah suggested this as well. (Sort of)

[@0festiva0]

The Sonic Advance Trilogy and Rush games are proof enough the side scrolling titles don't need to lean on the old design of Sonic.

[@mistahg4496]

I've always thought it'd be best to just have 1 version of Sonic that's allowed to "have it all." Such as all the characters. We could have fang, rouge, shadow, whatever. And I dont see any canonicity problems because they could just... not make it take place in the classic Era. And then just say those classic characters came back. And as for knuckles, we've seen him be able to shrink down the master Emerald in sa2. He does NOT need to be constrained to Angel Island. Like, really, there's NO reason why we should have had 2 different sonics.

[@MidnightApex-ml6jc]

Exactly!

[@SonicSatamAnimations]

Exactly what sega doesn’t notice. Just incorporate likable characters and asthetics from them all into one and end this split nonesense

[@Rainyar4779]

So, basically Archie Sonic?

[@mistahg4496]

@Raynoir4779 exactly. But, yknow. Actually in the games

[@bowmaj8666]

There's actually only one reason to have two separate Sonics. And that's to appease the whiney fan boys who cry "WAAAH, I HATE THAT STINKY GREEN EYED SONIC! GET RID OF HIM! REEEEE!"

[@greenD7244]

23:35 I think that's actually where the dislike for Classic Sonic comes from first and foremost. Modern fans don't want Classic Sonic to be a consistent brand of games because the characters they like and want to see are 100% irrefutably banned from ever appearing in Classic games. And a ton of this fanbase is in fact, built off of how people like those characters. How people like IDW for being able to see all the characters they like, how people argue over characterization, sometimes it's almost like there are sub-fanbases based specifically on certain characters like Shadow, Silver or Blaze. So fans of those characters, and fans who enjoy the Modern characters in general, dislike Classic not for its tone or how it's "holding Sonic back", but that a ton of the cast people love and enjoy are banned from being in those games. The whole Shadow onesie debacle from Superstars is an example of that. Shadow is banned from Superstars, so they gave him a costume instead because of the "brand", and people very much weren't a fan of that.

[@mobas07]

The problem I have with Classic Sonic is that he's been retconned to be too "smooth" he's a lighter shade of blue, his expressions are softer, it just feels like he's completely lost his edge. Modern Sonic games should be modern and classic Sonic games should actually be like the classics instead of the stupid play dough Classic Sonic we have now.

[@coltonk.3086]

Outside of CD, It's an attempt to make him "cute", which completely undermines his character in the first place.

[@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778]

CD sonic had the peak design

[@mobas07]

I agree, CD and the OVA are probably my favourite classic sonic designs.

[@Josuh]

strange, isn't it?

[@ssg-eggunner]

Literally santiago

[@junkyardcrow1748]

All this to say Mega Man's "subseries" formula was a gigabrained structure to start. All the food groups kept seperate on the plate, no one's 'tism gets activated.

[@yuchun_]

One fundamental difference is that those "subseries" are actually still connected and all the protagonists are different people. It actually made the lore more interesting rather than make it a complete mess.

[@qstmrk8004]

@@yuchun_ not to mention they all played around the core of megaman in different but still connected ways to the foundation. alot of sonics vartion completetly ignores the series core ideas rather than extrapolating upon them

[@lazure694]

Sonic Boom was the closest exemple of a "Mega Man X" that we had AFTER Generations solidified their separation, and even then, it was doomed from the start because 1. Developers faced a lot of trouble and limitations BECAUSE of Sonic Team and 2. Only one game (actually three, but Rise of Lyric is the relevant game in this discussion) versus the entirety of Mega Man and it's sub-series is a completely unfair competition. If Sonic Team let RED BUTTON have their freedom to do whatever they wanted, it either would not be deemed such a failure or would at least have a chance to develop, and it's a shame that we never even had a chance for that to happen, since the two sequels to Rise of Lyric weren't really significant for the series to evolve.

[@LoliconSamalik]

@@yuchun_ Well, except for the digiverse games like Battle Network and StarForce. That's it's own continuity.

[@yuchun_]

@@LoliconSamalik Oh absolutely, those are straight up Mega Man RPGs and they are a completely different universe, but that IS defined. Pretty much everyone is onboard that battle network is the timeline where the conflict of Mega Man was not physical, but instead digital...yknow...EXEs...programs...also your username makes me want to self immolate. As for Lazure's take, not really since Mega Man X is not in any way a reboot or alternate timeline, in fact before Sonic Team fucked it up, BRB wanted it to be an origin story, basically the opposite of X's hundred year timeskip. I bet the time travel would've been more interesting if they had more creative freedom, those ex ND employees had experience with timeloop plots and all that.

[@GGAMER1337BR]

i think you're one of the most unique content creators to talk about the Sonic series, you have some really interesting opinions that i honestly can't say i've ever seen before

[@murilosampaio1264]

A better argument about the difference between original Sonic and post adventure/modern sonic is the Shift in the Dragon Ball series going from the Original Classic Dragon Ball that was a comedic journey to the West Novel parody to well, Dragon Ball Z and Super. Not the clearest cuts of analogy, but there is a sizeable difference in tone and story focus on both generations of the series

[@Pariah6950]

Oh, yeah. How did I forget about that comparison lol

[@sonic5993]

​@Pariah6950 it's funny because you brought that up back in the Adventure 2 story video

[@ultimateshadeofwar]

Classic Dragon Ball was only a Parody of Journey to the West on it's first Story arc, after that it's a martial arts adventure with touches of comedy. But your point kind of stand... With the Second part of DB or like people go with the Z... Super on the other hand... Well if GT is a disaster, Super just kills all of where OG DB ended for the characters, it's the ultimate show of whoever is in charge (Toriyama, Toei, Toyotaro, etc) of grabbing the characters as if they were Puppets and putting audio boxes so they act like it's supposedly popular or they wants them to have the story progress.

[@murilosampaio1264]

@@ultimateshadeofwar My point still stands, I do know it was only the first arc, it was still a very lighthearted, magical, martial arts based series, instead of cosmical clashes and lasers Everywhere

[@tjlnintendo]

And just like modern Dragon Ball, all the side characters are useless cheerleaders now just like Sonic’s modern friends

[@jahmocha9542]

"Sonic Colors came out 14 years ago" Thank you, I can feel the gray hairs sprouting from my head

[@Paul_Recall]

I'm someone who grew up with modern Sonic, and have only played the classics fairly recently, and I can say that I really enjoy both! My perspective, is that while I like classic Sonic, I don't exactly like what he's become a symbol for. The classic Sonic games are full of unique theming for zones, and have such a beautiful surrealist style to them, yet whenever Sega brings back "classic" style elements, they either tend to be the same ones time and time again, or the more generic ones. Sonic Lost world is a game that clearly takes inspiration from the classics, but uses that to make more generic, Mario like world theming. The re-use of certain iconic stages ad nauseum needs no introduction, but it's also lead to people seeing classic as the "generic" and "brand - safe" version of Sonic, that the actual Classic games aren't. Sonic Mania's original stages are just brimming with creativity and beauty, but when Superstars finally commits to all new levels, they're mostly just the typical themes you'd expect from some of the more boring levels in a "Classic" game. Classic styled Sonic has so much potential to be it's own unique, gorgeous version of Sonic (as can be seen by things like Sonic CD, Sonic OVA, Sonic R, etc), but I can't trust Sega to actually let it be that, instead of "Let's make those classic games, except make them generic and samey so they appeal to general audiences". Sonic Superstars feels mostly like that to me, a game that while having good elements and some nice style at points, is just utterly terrified of innovating forward to the point it feels less creative than it's predecessors. I love the actual Classic Sonic games, but as long as Sega keeps treating it like this, I can't exactly say I'm excited for more classic styled games, unless they are handled by people like Evening Star, who aren't afraid to be innovative.

[@MrKingkz]

I think the problem is how do we make classic sonic new and not ruin the gameplay i do think he needs to grow the question is how

[@evdestroy5304]

​@@MrKingkzThey already did that, it's called Sonic Advance

[@MrKingkz]

@@evdestroy5304 yea but there not new anymore there about 20 years old and its the Advance series that went on to make rush made and all that boost bullshit that killed platforming in sonic till mania i would like a new take that dosnt take my controle away

[@evdestroy5304]

@MrKingkz No one who has actually played through all of Rush unironically says it's a skilless game with no player control, Rush is one of the harder games in the series.

[@MrKingkz]

@@evdestroy5304 Maybe its me and my years of playing sonic on the megadrive but the rush games where a too easy for my if you think that is hard try playing sonic one to three without saves now that is hard

[@NikiYKN]

14:20 This is a REALLY unfair comparison. One is the first time the series attempted to tell a "bigger" story in scale...while the other is a cute spin off. This is like comparing a random "filler" episode of Pokemon to the first movie and saying they're not the same show. Classic, or, as you put it in this video, "Original" and Modern Sonic are way more similar than people think. A better comparison to the Sonic vs Shadow scene in tone would be the final confrontation between Sonic and Metal Sonic in CD. The Chao Garden stuff in both SA1 and 2 is also more in line with R, and these games were immediately followed by Heroes. The series was always meant to mix cutesy and fun characters with cool and exciting situations. Just look at Sonic Unleashed, a modern game that is dowright silly and cartoony most of the time, while still featuring all the over the top "anime" stuff that ends with Sonic beating a god alongside a mecha. So yes, until recently, Classic Sonic was just a artstyle change. At least in the Japan side of things that is. Lost World and Frontiers were written overseas by people who DO have a different view of what Sonic is...but Riders is just a stylish spin off. Just because a series tries something slightly different at times doesn't mean it became a whole different thing. Classic Sonic nowadays is just trying to replicate what people think the original games were, which is why both Mania and Superstars feel lacking when it comes to their stories for example. The stories of the Mega Drive games are far from complex, but they did try to tell exciting adventures with cool and even "emotional" moments...but in the newer games that's all just an excuse to go through the levels.

[@aidanhammans9337]

Pariah695 back again with the takes I didn’t even know existed.

[@johnnyjoestar4636]

i grew up with both classic and modern sonic and honestly I love both equally cause i never separated them cause sonic is sonic in my eyes

[@SonicSatamAnimations]

AGREED

[@somari8591]

"What if the next 3D console Sonic game had the classic Sonic art style with aesthetics and character design and all that" THAT SOUNDS FUCKING BADASS I WANT THAT I know that this question was just meant to challenge people who view classic Sonic as a separate entity from modern entirely but genuinely I do not give a fuck if the next 3D Sonic made him look that way as long as the fucking story and gameplay was good.

[@backslash_bks]

I legit think this is such a cool idea but I can understand why people wouldn't prefer it

[@castform7]

At first I was a bit put off, kind of exemplifying the main thesis behind the thought experiment but honestly a 3D game with Classic aesthetics and vision that takes a lot from the Modern games doesn't sound like a bad idea. I've said before that I think it's stupid that Classic can only be 2D now and only Modern can interact fully with the Z-axis and if handled correctly (very important if there) I think it could work.

[@artey6671]

"as long as the fucking story and gameplay was good." You might be disappointed then.

[@castform7]

@@artey6671 I feel like we're all aware of "as long as" being *very* operative words here.

[@nyeeeofthestarsz1804]

I don't think classic sonic would work as a 3d game, just look at sonic r, 3d blast, jam. Classic sonic design wasn't meant for 3d and I think that's the reason why they changed the design to fit the 3d gameplay better

[@myguy4203]

Around 2:28 mins in you reminded me of the recent Fang the Hunter Comic where the central plot point is Fang thinks he’s being gaslit by Sonic who says there _always_ have been only 7 emeralds, not more 😂

[@dontreegetitdonteandtree]

I really liked the idea you had here of splitting the two Sonics into three Sonics. Original Sonic being Sonic’s representation in the 90’s, Modern Sonic being green eyes and onwards, and Classic Sonic being a clone Modern Sonic with Original Sonic’s traits in the areas where it matters most.

[@TengokuEXE]

I think the problem isn't that there are multiple versions of sonic, but that they made a distinction in the first place by having classic and modern sonic team up, like some sort of sonic multiverse with all the different iterations of Sonic. If Nintendo made "Super Mario Generations" where Modern Mario teams up with Classic Mario, I guarantee it would cause a massive fan war. Everyone would argue about which is better or which should be in smash, etc.

[@cabbusses]

There is no "Modern Mario" and "Classic Mario" split, though, because Mario, fundamentally, has changed very little. The core gameplay of 2D Mario has not really changed since 3. 3D Mario still uses the 2D Mario's fundamentals as a starting point. Every spinoff has generally kept the same tone of aesthetic and story. And all that is a deliberate move by Nintendo to keep Mario a stable franchise for them to fall back on. Mario never needed a dramatic reinvention to justify a new entry like Kid Icarus, nor does it deliberately use new character designs and art styles to establish characters as different from the past ones like Zelda does, nor does it redesign the character for continuity reasons like Metroid, nor to ambiguate the continuity like Fire Emblem, nor reboot the continuity like StarFox or F-Zero. Mario is always just Mario. There isn't some huge dramatic shift depending on whether the color of his overalls are red or blue. As such, all a "Super Mario Generations" would cause is people being confused why Nintendo thought that necessary.

[@TengokuEXE]

@@cabbusses That's my point. I agree, "Super Mario Generations would be unnecessary and would wreak havok upon the fanbase, imo. Sonic was a little more extreme in the different iterations and redesigns, but style and characters get redesigned all the time, such as Paper Mario. I think It's fine to have different versions of the same character, but to canonically distinguish them as if they are two different entities within the same IP is what caused the fanbase to fracture into people that like "Classic Sonic" the character vs "Modern Sonic." the character as well as these fan wars, when it could have just been sonic fans liking certain play styles or emphasis on story like the different Mario games. Point being, while Mario is Mario, Sonic is either Classic or Modern. Thus, instead of Mario vs Sonic, it's Sonic vs Sonic, which hurts the franchise.

[@franklycentral48]

For the most part i agree but there’s just one problem you're overlooking, the Sonic Advance games, they were clearly classic Sonic games but with the modern Sonic designs. Fun action adventures with little story, you yourself said that Sonic Advance 3 was your favorite Sonic game. These games pushed the classic Sonic game play forward in their own way, even giving Amy her own unique gameplay which emphasized the fact that she couldn’t do the things the other characters could and had her own way to accommodate for that. The classic modern Sonic split kills the potential for games like that because the classic Sonic games were designed to be one button games but the advance games employ multiple buttons so we'll never get a continuation to the Advance trilogy because of classic Sonic becoming its own thing. And i like the Advance games, they were interesting.

[@Pariah6950]

That's another one of my issues with "Classic Sonic". There's no reason those games have to maintain the 1 button simplicity. But nostalgia, so they do.

[@aredbomb5992]

I don’t think the Advance games using the modern art style is what gave them the ability to do those things though. I feel like whether it was Classic or Modern, the Advance series would’ve probably evolved in the same way. You could argue that Super Stars shakes up the formula too with it’s chaos abilities, multiplayer mechanics, and larger focus on bosses (for better or for worse). If Sega wanted to make a Classic Sonic platformer with fresh ideas or elements from modern games they could, but that’s clearly not what they want to do for whatever reason. This is more so a problem with Sega’s insistence of keeping Classic locked to the past, rarely ever taking elements from Modern.

[@franklycentral48]

@@Pariah6950 Exactly, the "Classic Sonic" games simply embody the concept of nostalgia based game design when that's not inherently necessary and I think that's the core issue, rather than having a Sonic pretending to be a continuation of the classic games but not actually doing that much interesting I'd rather just have Sonic Advance 4 or something, the benefit of the Advance games was that they were a compromise with classic fans saying "We know things are different now but the Sonic games you like aren't completely gone." While I don't completely agree with the sentiment, there's a reason why Sonic Advance was considered by many at the time to be "The REAL Sonic 4" That said, I haven't actually played Superstars but there do appear to be some interesting things about that game, but I'm just personally not interested.

[@castform7]

I specifically don't like how they did Amy. She had such a unique playstyle in Advance and really stood out from the others. Now in Superstars, I wouldn't say it's bad, it just feels so much less inspired.

[@aredbomb5992]

@@castform7 I honestly agree. I understand why they simplified her moveset in SuperStars cause of the multiplayer aspect, but it’s definitely a downgrade overall and makes her feel less unique.

[@demetriusnp49]

Generations and Forces both single-handedly broke the entire franchise. I don’t mind the split, but at least treat them both with respect instead of treating them as brand fodder. Mario never had to deal with something like this, EVER.

[@tjlnintendo]

The closest Mario ever suffered from this is probably the Paper Mario series. Even then, its not as bad as the Sonic situations.

[@Jdudec367]

How did Generations break it? It treated it with respect, with Forces Classic Sonic was just shoehorned in and didn`t make much sense.

[@tjlnintendo]

@@Jdudec367 I guess because it was the start of Sega treating both Classic and Modern as different entities. At least I would assume after what happens post Generations. Plus they made the artstyle change canon I guess? It is weird for Sonic and Co to just develop different eye colors as they get older. Plus in Sonic Adventure, Tails has a flash back of meeting Sonic for the first time and they both still have their modern eye colors indicating that from their perspective, they always had their eye colors and that art style changes isn’t canon but just a visual thing. Like in Zelda Wind Waker, despite taking place in the same universe it looks so different from Ocarina of time’s world, but thats because it’s just an art style.

[@Jdudec367]

@@tjlnintendo How were they different entities in Generations? I mean sure Classic Sonic doesn`t talk but it`s still the same person. Well yeah that was always canon really. Weird yeah but it always seemed like a thing really. Or maybe that is just a weird inconsistency? I mean they certainly looked younger in the classic games and they were meant to look more mature in the modern games. Tbf in Wind Waker Link is actually a kid though.

[@crimsonzone8984]

Watch this video link to see the problem with classic sonic outside of sonic forces. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jHPOkpqndqyZmsksi=mdLbOVJZBVkdDXna

[@mynamesurename8042]

"How could Knuckles treasure hunt when stuck in one place", that would make sense, if the one place you weren't talking about was a massive island. And we see Knuckles chilling at the start of his story in 3&K so it's not like he's glued to the altar.

[@2ndspringtube708]

I remember back when people genuinely thought that boom sonic is the same as Morden and classic sonic but just older ,such simpler weirder times

[@miqwerty]

16:50 This may be just me but honestly that sounds kinda sick ngl

[@DisGuy-y7o]

This video made me appreciate the Megaman series more.

[@AuraNova26]

I would disagree against the idea that Knuckles being a treasure hunter doesn't make sense with him being the guardian of the Master Emerald. Like yes, it is isolated from the world, but Angel Island is still big. The zones we saw in S3&K are not all of that floating landmass. There are likely places we don't know about. And as for Knuckles, just cause he is the guardian doesn't mean he can't go explore Angel Island and eventually gain the skills to be able to find new stuff. The animation for Frontiers brings up a great idea that he explores Angel Island and is capable of finding new things everyday when he decides to venture far enough from the altar. Maybe he finds a cool relic. Maybe he discovers a whole new area underground. Maybe he finds a new plant that he hasn't seen yet. Maybe meets new critters and stuff.

[@ikercardaensland8251]

Honestly I like modern sonic a lot more than classic but that doesn't mean that I hate classic. Actually I would like to see another 2D modern sonic a la Sonic rush or advance, and a 3D classic sonic a la Mario 3d world. I'm also tired that classic sonic can't grow over the nostalgia, it would be cool to see that part of the franchise experiment more with their soundtracks, stages and themes, mania did a great job with their original zones. Hell I would love to see classic sonic characters interact with the modern cast and the modern cast with the classic cast, but I guess we can't for some stupid reason.

[@Laekith]

This might be one of the most important videos you've made and I think you hit the nail on the head. P.S.: I would love a 3D game with the classic aesthetic so much

[@legoboy7107]

We got one, it's called sOniC LoSt wOrLd!! (This is a joke, that's what LW was largely trying to be when it wasn't trying to just be Mario, but it completely failed and misunderstood the assignment fundamentally).

[@LexStormA]

Not sure what other modern fans think, but my issue with the two Sonics coexisting is how certain elements end up pigeonholed to one side or another. I.e. Modern Sonic never getting momentum gameplay because that's seen as a Classic Sonic thing. Or Classic Sonic having a much cuter design than his initial version in the Genesis era because being cool belongs to Modern Sonic. Don't get me wrong, I really like your proposal of completely seperating the two in terms of their past and future. It would unshackle them in terms of continuity, and allow them to reinvent and make more creative choices with both versions of the IP. But that would also present the issue of one version getting a cool thing that fans of the other version wants, and vice versa. Imagine the "Classic-verse" of Sonic introduces more emeralds, allowing for hyper forms or just new forms for multiple characters, and that ends up being something that can't happen in the "Modern-verse" because you only have the seven. Or modern verse has a new mechanic that would work really well with the classic verse, but that can't happen because it's tied to Modern Sonic gameplay. The issue brought with a hard seperation is that you can't intermingle the two nearly as much, otherwise there would be no point in seperating them. Nintendo does a great job of maintaining old and new styles with their IP, and they typically take place in the same universe. New Super Mario Bros. has the same character designs and world as any of the 3D Mario games, and that eventually led to the creation of Mario 3D World/Bowsers Fury, Mario Odyssey, and Mario Wonder. All games that clearly take elements from both classic and modern playstyles to make a new experience. Zelda also follows this. Granted, most games take place in a changed world with different incarnations of the main character, but that is consistent ACROSS both versions of Zelda. Hell, Phantom Hourglass is a follow up to Wind Waker that takes the same Link from 3D mainline Zelda to 2D Zelda. BOTW and TOTK take 3D Zelda in a new direction, but there's clear elements of 2D Zelda integrated into the games. That's why I still think there should be one Sonic in terms of the main franchise. Instead of tying gameplay styles, environments, even story tone to a different version of Sonic, just let the one do multiple things across different games. Frontiers already shows that Sonic's world consists of both cartoony environments and realistic ones, so you could have one game happen in the style of the genesis games, and then go full shonen drama in another game with the same cast. Or hell, just do the incredibly smart thing of NOT trying to tie a likely neverending brand into a continuity and just let each game exist as a standalone story. And from there you could build on the series, taking elements from previous different titles to push towards a new experience each time.

[@galten7361]

Honestly, the games with the biggest shifts away from Classic's vision in the Adventure Era are the following: -Adventure 2. A. Shadow and Rouge being both attempts to stick in new character types into the franchise (a rival figure ala Vegeta or Sasuke or Hiei who also has a nod to Please Save My Earth and a bat girl thief/spy designed to be the series' mega sexy femme fatal lady character ala Jessica Rabbit or Betty Boop or Minerva Mink or Lara Croft) with Rouge being designed for new focus on actual militaries and governments while Shadow was the first antagonist who matched Sonic's abilities without being a robot but a bioweapon (and so represented how dangerous science/tech can be but in a new way than Eggman). B. The whole plot with G.U.N. and Gerald was a first for the series since it was the first time we had Sonic have his world's legitimate forces for authority/law/militarism oppose him (Eggman has military hints in his design and is a tycoon but he's supposed to be a would-be conqueror not the legitimate authority). We had more focus on the wider world and its politics (Station Square was mostly humies but we didn't see who ran it). C. A non-monster villain in Gerald who wasn't acting from greed or more power or thinking his schemes would bring about a utopia/new era for the world (like Eggman himself) but just out to kill everyone. D. Making Eggman be a pawn of Shadow and by extension Gerald. Having Shadow be a messiah analogue so he dies. E. Having the game play more deeply into how Adventure was trying to make Sonic be "Real" complete with flat-out just having Sonic grinding through San Francisco. -Shadow the Hedgehog A. Shadow being promoted to the protagonist in a main title rather than just a side game. B. Black Doom being the first demonic or demon evoking villain while also the first one who is a space alien. He also has no goals that beyond turning the world into a buffet with him waging war across the world. C. The overall look/style being sinister and horror lite (with a side of sci-fi ala Halo). D. Having a named human character who isn't a Robotnik be important (G.U.N. Commander). -O6. A. Between how the game looks and how it sounds. B. What they were trying to do with Elise (have the same broad character arc as Blaze but with the romance more obvious). C. Having a post-apocalypse ala Terminator or the Android/Cell arcs (with Silver officially modeled on Future Trunks) D. Mephiles being the 2nd Satan analogue who aspires to just kill everyone as Solaris but without Gerald's backstory to push him to be that way. E. Fake killing Sonic. Other Adventure Era games are not at all that off brand. The Rush games I propose once you account for the new designs and inclusions of actual dialogue and how they overall play are indeed Classic Era games in Modern Era paint. I would go to say that they're the best examples of games that could be made for the scenario of "Classic and Modern stay separate Sonic worlds."

[@yuchun_]

The fact you think SA2 actually making innovations in the storytelling department is somehow like in any way a negative, as opposed to the corporate bullshit you mention literally just paragraphs later, is quite telling. Calling any evolution "off brand" basically guarantees stagnation. The problem with Shadow and 06 was not that they did different things, it's that they did different things...yknow, badly....and also that Shadow is literally confirmed by Izuka to be a Jak II knockoff, while 06 remains as one of the worst cases of crunch culture. Rush is also not an adventure era game, that era ends with Heroes since that's when many changes started happening, both with Sonic Team and ESPECIALLY Sega as a whole, specifically them basically becoming SegaSammy. And before you think of calling me "biased," I say those other two are corporate specifically because of the Sammy partnership, and because SA2 clearly had passion put into it. This is not me assuming, it's me reading about the writer trying as hard as possible to adapt all of the scenes he wanted (which ultimately only failed due to time constraints).

[@SaddieMoon]

Personally, I don’t mind them taking Classic Sonic in its own direction, as long as they can at least add Classic exclusive characters in Modern. No matter if they are mostly the same as in the Classics or changed. Yes, I’m saying this only because of my love for Mighty & Ray.

[@ImanFate]

14:20 I have to disagree here. Sonic R is 100% the same universe and artistic style as adventure 1 and 2. It's just older looking. But conceptually and artistically, you can tell they're all meant to be part of the same universe. No question

[@murilosampaio1264]

Sorry for the unrelated to the topic at hand of the video comment, but I can't wait to watch the Lost world Review

[@HydraBread]

I mostly just don’t like the brand restrictions on Classic Sonic, ie not being able to use characters like Shadow or voice acting in 2D games.

[@parjupiter134]

Okay, I finished that video and I don't think I agree on everything. There is no real issue with Sonic having a lot of separate continuities and I actually agree with you about the benefits of making Sonic the Hedgehog a very free-minded and diverse franchise... but only on the condition that the base material keeps being faithful to itself. It currently isn't and I am sad to say it doesn't look like it'll go better (I watched Jeb's video about Frontiers story, damn, I expected this game to raise the quality level at least a bit). Market rules don't have any soul and will allow a popular enough alternate universe to "overcome" the material it was based on, and in that context, it generally means removal. It's not because of nothing if a lot of Sonic fans got loudly worried back in 2014 about Sonic Boom and SEGA being possibly trying to reboot the franchise. The merchandising strategy, the comic series and the creation of a TV show for this sole "spin-off continuity" didn't solve their concerns at all. People don't want Sonic the Hedgehog to get rebooted. They want it to be fixed and to stop shitting on itself. The characters are still nowadays flanderized versions of themselves, the post-Adventure stories (omitting Unleashed) make the Sonic universe look laughable, gameplay gets crappier as far as we go in time (Frontiers being an exception AFAIK but I can't guarantee it myself). We're complaining about the franchise relying on the past but come on, that's the only thing left. I think that a successful Sonic Boom would've been enough to wipe the franchise in the state it was in 2010 (and despite having no hate for the Boom spin-off, I don't like that idea at all). I don't like the Modern / Classic split on my side because it just looks like a very hazardous way to slightly fix Sonic Team's decades of pure incompetence in storytelling. The alternate timelines/dimensions/universes/realities just looks as dumb as Generations' plot to me. All of this is just unnecessary: just make Sonic games with their own continuity, warn us about that, and that's all folks.

[@supermariof0521]

I always felt like 3D Sonic apologists only hate Classic Sonic PURELY because they can't escape the reality that Classic Sonic's reputation is significantly higher than Modern Sonic's reputation. 3D Sonic/Modern Sonic fans have developed the same superiority complex that they once clowned on Classic purists like Aknotholeresident or MarioTehPlumber for having. 3D Sonic/Modern Sonic fans have basically turned into the very thing they hated. They just don't acknowledge it.

[@miqwerty]

26:23 I really like this idea although I would personally take a page outta Daniel Barnes' book and say there should be some kinda big story event in the modern series that forces Knuckles to sacrifice or destroy the Master Emerald to save the world or something.

[@castform7]

I think the idea that "they're taking my Sonic away from me" at least in this new time is a little silly. I get that people prefer different styles and if they don't like one, but I feel like we're far from a time where Classic will just eclipse Modern like Modern did to Classic back in Adventure. I honestly don't mind the idea of different era's of Sonic coexisting and releasing consistently as well as taking elements from each other so that multiple people can be happy. Hell, bring Boom back and give it good games and an interesting world I won't be mad. The show presented that a Sonic Boom project isn't just doomed to be badly recieved. SEGA has taken drastic shifts with this series for years for so long that now there's this natural divide of folks who like this specific direction only for it to explode and get replaced. Maybe we should embraces these aspects and keep them going as different sectors so that way, everyone gets a little bit of "their Sonic".

[@Laveta_08]

Video genuinely changed my thoughts on the whole cannon stuff and I honestly am starting to think it is kind of dumb to be stuck to a timeline and not able to split off and do other stuff with other designs.

[@esdrasImayInotguy3481]

11:19: hey pariah!, I don't know if you know this, but if you stick to walls in the gravity section of the last stage in Superstars, you can jump out of it and go much faster on those sections, the corners are kinda glitchy tho

[@Sonicfan-wi6oy]

16:58 I honestly would be against this idea just cause seeing Classic Sonic in that crazy anime style is gonna be tonal whiplash to the fullest A full on Sonic Utopia style translation of Classic Sonic to 3D however is something that though wouldn't be my ideal Sonic game I'd be fine with

[@yuchun_]

You say that as if the 90s did not give us the best Sonic anime productions (The Sonic CD intro by Junio, fuck Toei btw, and the Sonic OVA). The latter of those two is ironically the most flashy anime stuff the series has given us, with Sonic X being mostly ridden with bad animation and lame action up until the Metarex Saga. Also Utopia sucks and so does it's creator, there's better physics based Sonic-like engines out there, it's just that the best of them are actually going beyond the scope of this series so nobody actually pays attention, they don't really step foot outside the brand so to speak.

[@beedrillbot121]

I personally would love it if there was a year where a 3D Classic Sonic game and a 2D Modern Sonic game that coexist as a Superstars and Frontiers dual release. I mean if the OVA is anything to go off of, I know the Classic characters can easily support their own stories.

[@toekneemart5597]

except I would like some gameplay to be tied to the artstyles a 2d modern sonic game would basically be a rush 5, and fan games have already shown how fun 3d classic sonic can be. Yes please.

[@alchemistofsteel8099]

So like Megaman?

[@thesoniczone11]

I absolutely hate the idea of splitting any franchise up into a billion different versions of itself. There has to be UNITY. COHESION. The absolute WORST problem about Sonic is specifically that lack of cohesion. There should only be ONE Sonic, and that is clearly what Sonic Team wants and has always wanted since day 1. "Sonic" from Sonic 1 and "Sonic" from Sonic Frontiers, is MEANT to be the exact same character evolving over time. That is precisely why Sonic Prime and the IDW comics are also stated to be canon, because they want that brand unity. This is also precisely why they officially declared that Classic Sonic IS Sonic from the past BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE. The classic games are part of Sonic Adventure's own lore and story. Tails, Amy & Knuckles' stories in that game are directly built on how they were introduced in Sonic 2, CD and 3K. That CAN NOT be changed. Splitting these characters up into different versions of themselves kills all of the characters, it KILLS the brand. Stuff like this is exactly why it's hard for me to really get into Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, because there's no "real" TMNT to follow. There should be a real, prime, canonical core foundation that the franchise and brand as a whole should adhere to. "Sonic the Hedgehog" as he was created by Naoto Oshima and the rest of Sonic Team back in '91, should always remain THE ONE TRUE SONIC, and it is this exact same "Sonic" that EVOLVED in Sonic Adventure 1, and _supposedly_ evolves again in Sonic Frontiers. Splitting things up so "everyone can get what they want" is the absolute WORST idea there could ever be. No, Sonic shouldn't be split. There should only be one Sonic. There IS only one Sonic. That's the whole point with characters like Metal Sonic & Shadow, you can not truly have an entirely different "version" of Sonic because it'll never be the TRUE Sonic. The western Sonic of the 90s, Archie Sonic, Boom Sonic, Movie Sonic, none of them are "Sonic". The reason why a lot of people don't like Prime Sonic is specifically because "It's not the real Sonic" simply by how he's written, and IDW recieves the same criticism. The Classic games and the Adventure games ARE NOT two different versions of Sonic. They were always one big thing. Separating them as different isn't even consistent within itself, because the classic games are just as distinct from each other as they are from Adventure. Sonic 2 & 3K are practically an entirely separate continuity from CD, with completely different aesthetics and gameplay concepts and story and lore as a whole. "Amy Rose" did not exist in the same continuity as Tails & Knuckles. Little Planet did not exist in the same continuity and lore as Westside Island, Angel Island and all the Chaos Emerald stuff. Both Sonic CD AND Sonic 2 individually were built as direct sequels to Sonic 1 that expanded those original ideas in two completely different directions. And you know what that meant!? It meant that Amy Rose & Metal Sonic were always disregarded and ignored, in favor of Tails, Knuckles & Mecha Sonic. It meant that Amy was always seen as an "outsider", she was never recognized as a "Classic" character DESPITE LITERALLY BEING CREATED *BEFORE TAILS WAS EVEN A THOUGHT*. Even though Metal Sonic is widely presented as "the" Sonic robot, Mecha Sonic is the one with a massive fanbase simply because of everyone loving Sonic 3 & Knuckles, which is why Super Mario Bros Z exists with Mecha Sonic as the villain. Having multiple different versions of a franchise is never a good thing, because it's always going to lead to conflict, with certain groups favoring one over the other, believing "MY preferred version is the TRUE version", and then the Company that owns the franchise is always going to favor whichever specific version, and so many different fanbases are going to be mad and upset when THEIR preferred version is not given the respect or attention it deserves. If everyone is asked "Who is Sonic the Hedgehog?" but everyone has a completely different idea of what Sonic even is, then that means that there IS no "Sonic the Hedgehog", and that is NOT a good thing. The true, _original_ vision of the character as he was conceptualized by his creators should be what remains true at the heart of the character in the global consciousness. This single concept of Sonic should grow, adapt and evolve over time, through each and every new idea that new creators have, allowing the franchise to grow and change, without ever losing sight of where it all began and what the core concept and intention with Sonic has always been. It is only through a unified, cohesive vision of Sonic the Hedgehog as a franchise, as a brand, and as an IDEA... That it can reach true success.

[@parjupiter134]

I don't completely agree with your opinion, but your argumentation is well ridden.

[@Joshua-wo2ey]

If you want to talk about “success”, Sonic is in one of the best places it’s ever been at the moment (from a sales perspective) and that’s owed almost entirely to the movies and Frontiers, both of which are new and different takes on the series. We can debate what the “true” version of sonic is for hours, but in reality, general audiences just want something that loosely resembles what they expect the series to be. And right now, both classic AND modern meet those expectations. There’s no reason to alienate tons of fans for the sake of “success” when the series is already going in a direction that does well with general audiences AND appeals to as many fans as possible

[@thesoniczone11]

@@Joshua-wo2ey Movie Sonic is a completely separate character from Game Sonic, so what's the point of the Movies' success when it has no connection to the true source material and character? How can "Sonic" be successful if the wide majority of people only have different, conflicting versions of Sonic that don't reflect the core essence of the character's original concept? If all that matters in the end is the _name_ "Sonic" and the vague image of a blue hedgehog that runs fast, then the original spirit of the character beneath that image is dead.

[@SonicSatamAnimations]

@@thesoniczone11I agree with you FULLY. It’s like, why create a movie ABOUT sonic that doesn’t even change the sonic universe in the end…? Instead shows like sonic prime are there and the idw comics are canon. Why are they canon? For the sake of it mattering, so that it’s not just a comic that you read and it has experiences that sonic actually saw.

[@galten7361]

@@Joshua-wo2ey The movies are just a cape flick with furries (and a road trip film for the first one) complete with making Sonic into a lonely babuu with a cop stepparent who also faces enemies of Small Town America (hence characterizing Eggman as a rogue agent of the American government who doubles as a jab at urbane elitists).

[@Rainyar4779]

I like Classic Sonic a lot, i love his simple design, i love the abstract aesthetics, and i love his attitude, it was subtle, but definitely still there, he was impacient, he was rebellious, and he got things done quickly. But i also love modern Sonic, because of his cooler design and the fact that his maekawa personality can better bounce off other characters, like his dynamic with Shadow does not work as well with a serious Sonic cuz Shadow is already serious, so having the two contrast each other with a serious and focused personality clashing with a more playful and energetic personality was kinda genius on Maekawa's part. That's why if Sonic Generations had dialogue for Classic Sonic (and a decent writer) i would love to see Maekawa Sonic interacting with the Original Sonic, we kinda get that in the game, but Classic has no dialogue so it's less fun. Overrall they're both great Sonics, i would love to see a full Classic Sonic anime one day.

[@murilosampaio1264]

I think a cool direction for classic Sonic if he were to talk in gens is making him talk less, act more, he would jumpore into danger, his face would tell right on that he is onto doing something, always thinking about moving and doing something, so the few moments he would talk would give the sense that something different was going on, also would represent Sonic being more of a game character than he just not talking outright, he would be focused on being a gameplay character by focusing on DOING something, on ACTING on shit, would contrast the more dialogue focused modern sonic because he is the Sonic that was more involved with more complex and expansive narratives, while Classic did still have those, not on the same level and "depth" modern did, also it would be fun if he was really "younger sonic" that classic Sonic was more impulsive because he was more juvenile and took things more with urgency, a few kids grow up to worry less about situations they previously would either be panicking on or putting their heart and soul into it (most adults do that too anyway) it would indicate this sonic is from a time he "took more pride in his actions" idk, do SOMETHING about him being younger Sonic

[@Rainyar4779]

@@murilosampaio1264 That's almost exactly what i was thinking! I would also like if in Classic Sonic's dialogue, despite saying less quips, he would compensate by being more rude, similar to the OVA, and also more of a loner, as a reference to the fact that the Classic Sonic games had less characters so Sonic had less friends. Maybe one day i could rewrite Sonic Generations with these ideas in mind, that could be pretty fun!

[@murilosampaio1264]

@@Rainyar4779maybe not making him rude, I always thought of the stereotypical "tough bad boy with a heart of gold", he doesn't quip, is just that he is more short tempered and will show that by being rather dismissive of you if you bother him too much, but he won't be go out of his way to be an asshole to you, he just expects you to make his part easier by not being annoying or bothersome yourself, also him being a loner fits him by the simple fact that he is a drifter, hard to have a long standing friendship if the other person is always travelling by his own and doing his own shit

[@Rainyar4779]

@@murilosampaio1264 That's basically what i was thinking. Something along the lines of how he acted in the OVA.

[@murilosampaio1264]

@@Rainyar4779 Sorry, I just have a personal grudge of how much of a little brat Sonic is in the OVA, he is way TOO juvenile in my personal opinion, but I understand where you're coming from

[@myseconddisp291]

I think you're absolutely right about why people suddenly started to oppose Classic Sonic. Before Superstar was revealed, there was a leak that stated there was a 2d modern Sonic in the works, something like the advanced games. Then it turned out to be a classic game, so a lot of people felt betrayed and disappointed. It's really disheartening, because while I was born during the modern era, my first Sonic gmae was Sonic 1, and that's how I got into Sonic. I hadn't paid attention to Sonic for a long time until I learned about Mania. I love Modern Sonic, but Classic Sonic means a lot to me. A lot of kids nowadays might also grow up with Classic Sonic, too courtesy of Mania, Origins, and Superstars. Even Matpat recommended the calssic sonic games as one of the early games children can play in one of his recent videos. So, I don't think Classic Sonic is useless as some people claim. It has its place and it has its fans even in younger generations.

[@NKL3085]

Dumbasses shouldn't have put stock in a leak

[@SoaringSoul27]

A modern sonic game with classic visuals would actually be really cool, but I admit the modern voices would throw me off at the start

[@Knightishful]

You didn't say it, but showing TMNT really sold me on the idea of different continuities. You could have runs of Sonic games and describe them by the "run." Like, "This is the og sonic character who did all the stuff in 1-3 and Mania." "This is Adventure Sonic who did all the stuff in SA1, SA2, Heroes, Shadow, and 06." "This is Unleashed Sonic who does all the stuff from Unleashed until now." Thats a really clean way of sorting through some of the timeline nonsense while also giving each "run" the ability to come in and go out over time.

[@yuchun_]

Except that doesn't work because Sonic 1 up to Heroes are just inherently connected.

[@MidnightApex-ml6jc]

Just leave it as different art styles.

[@legoboy7107]

@@yuchun_ Even Shadow given its direct ties to Heroes and the adventure games. Ironic and really odd though that the edgy gritty realistic gun game Shadow '05 is inherently connected in the same continuity with a game about Little Planet, even if just through other connecting games, series plot holes aside.

[@yuchun_]

@@legoboy7107 Yeah I said Heroes because like SA1 and SA2 it expands a Genesis era plot, but instead of Angel Island, Heroes is about Metal Sonic, which without CD being related to it would make zero sense.

[@jacobkakyoin6882]

I think a good bit of the vitriol towards Classic Sonic as a concept comes from the thick dividing lines existing at all, aside from cases like Forces where a worse version of Classic Sonic taking up development time that could have gone to more work on Modern Sonic and the Avatar (literally the only time the "this is something Classic Sonic where Modern could have taken its place" criticism is legitimately valid given what a half-baked mess even the best parts of Forces wound up being); that one was just a stupid idea made all the more obvious when released immediately after Mania showed just how great classic-style 2D Sonic gameplay could still be made. Classic Sonic becoming explicitly considered a different character with different rules from Modern Sonic has been a detrimental policy to the potential of the series, and my main philosophical objection to him; I'm perfectly happy to see games with the tone, vibe, aesthetic, etc, of what they've decided "Classic" is made. Why can't they just say that Mania and Superstars and whatever else are all the same character and they just happened to want to make games using the old design style, as opposed to 'this is about the distinct character, the silent cartoon Sonic who never speaks?' Who gains from this? Hardcore fans generally find it annoying that because of these brand mandates, arbitrarily sorted 'modern' and 'classic' only characters and gameplay elements are never going to show up in the other's media (guarantee you that Trip, an Uekawa-designed and likable character with a playstyle perfect for 3D gameplay will NEVER be allowed to show up in a 3D platformer because this character who debuted in 2023 was born to be "classic." But also Sticks from Sonic Boom is canon to the modern era for some reason?), while a casual fan is probably never going to even know about the divide to begin with. As a kid whose first two Sonic games were the GCN Mega Collection and SA2B, it legitimately never occurred to me to think of them as radically different from one another, even when I obviously noticed the aesthetic differences. Them even removing things like "I'm outta here!" from the Origins version of CD because classic Sonic isn't allowed to talk because brand identity is honestly the most egregious example of just how petty the Classic-Modern division being enforced for the last several years has been. TBH, that hypothetical of a huge epic "modern-style" Sonic game that looks like the classic era but is allowed to have elements from the modern era sounds like a dream come true, assuming it's actually done interestingly and not a pale imitation like Lost World's attempts at abstract design. It's an experiment that would get eaten alive by the realism-obsessed AAA gaming space, but if it was actually done well, I think it'd be badass. I think something like that doing well would be the healthiest thing that could ever happen to Sonic. Sure, there's people who would be pissed about it, but I think there's still holdouts obsessed with the old Western "Mobius" lore. There's people mad about Sonic having green eyes or blue arms or the wrong muzzle shape. It SHOULD all be Sonic, with calls of "that's a different character entirely" reserved for situations like the movies or Sonic X or Archie or Boom (which, again, just kinda had Sonic Team throw up their arms and canonize its most popular original character anyway, so they're not even above this!) wherein that's a completely value-neutral observation and not an implicit way to delegitimize an interpretation. Though will admit that if they did commit to this dividing line harder, it should absolutely be more than a string of mandates about what Sonic can do when he's tiny and cutesy, a way to open up the possibilities for the world instead of completely shut them down, though I think that can be done without dividing things up even further. But even then, it's not actually all that easy to make a clean break because even through all of this, elements from radically different major installments do keep influencing one another, and there's coherent throughlines that run across the inflection point of the original classic-modern split and make it feel organically like SA2 and Shadow game can super feasibly share a world with 1, 2, CD, S3K. Even now there's some effort to make things work; nearly two decades of "screw it Knuckles is here" too late though it may be, as one example, they're finally writing in character-justifying reasons for him to be willing to leave the Master Emerald and have a life outside of it. Huge epic multi-character voice-acted storyline with classic aesthetics still sounds badass though, I must reiterate. Can't believe you tossed that out as a "that'd suck, right?"

[@bowmaj8666]

@@jacobkakyoin6882 I grew up playing Sonic games since the very beginning, and one thing that I loved was seeing the series and characters grow and progress. It was awesome to see these characters getting updated with new designs and hearing their voices for the first time. I distinctly remember playing Heroes for the first time and genuinely being excited to hear what newer characters such as Cream and Omega, as well as older characters such as the Chaotix and Metal Sonic, would sound like. This kind of excitement stretches to more obscure characters like Mighty, Ray and Fang. How would they update them? What colour irises would they give them? What would their voices sound like? But that never happened. Then finally, after years of being AWOL, we finally get them back, only for Sega to pretty much tell us "No! We're not going to do that with these characters! They're going to stay exactly the same till the end of time!" And now we've got a "New Classic" character who will be the same! Like, who is this for? Whiney fan boys who refuse to accept every Sonic game from Sonic Adventure onwards, because they hate "that ugly, stretched out, green eyed imposter? It's like they're trying to appeal to the type of fans who want to see those games retconed from the Sonic canon, and since Sega can't do that they just bring back Sonic's older design as an entirely separate character with its own separate series of games as "the next best thing." It just all sounds so ridiculous and petty to me!

[@AlexHedgefox]

20:35 small pet peeve, i kinda hate it when people refer to the meta era/2010s sonic as "saturday morning cartoon" writing, because sonic had saturday morning cartoons like Sonic SatAM and Sonic X which are nothing like the writing in colors or lost world.

[@galten7361]

They were certainly trying to pull from Western takes like SatAM for that era of Sonic which carried over today (hence IDW having a Freedom Fighters analogue). Just Orbot and Cubot alone reflect this since they are certainly an attempt at making Eggman have long-term henchmen/sidekicks ala Scratch and Grounder or Snively or Sleet and Dingo or Grimer (but especially Scratch and Grounder). Among other things the two don't work since Eggman isn't a dictator so he doesn't need generals or viceroys.

[@JoSephGD]

Generations was _my_ first Sonic game. I am now 18. They've been too reliant on nostalgia for too long.

[@SUPUHDAN125]

honestly the treasure hunter thing with knuckles i just kinda chocked it up to; if im sitting on an island looking at a glowing green gem im gonna get bored as hell. Theres all these ruins on this island, might as well explore them. it makes the most sense to me

[@_dot_tea2774]

I hope Classic Sonic would continue. Given by how some popular Sonic KZbinrs bashed Superstars (even some of my friends hate it, though I can't check for myself at the moment) and how Sega allegedly is unhappy with Superstars sales (at least that's what I've heard from some articles, but I may be wrong), I feel like Sega may just pull the plug on Classic Sonic entirely, as they usually do when a new idea stops working after they repeat said idea. I feel like the discourse on Classic Sonic is also dilluted by Superstars reception in particular. Bad bosses, of course, but also people talk about the performance issues, the overprice, the "overreliance on nostalgia", the "blandness", with arguments being thrown that the game is allegedly badly designed. People didn't like Origins and Superstars, so people want Sega to stop trying to bring back Classic Sonic -- it failed, so it has to go, let the more successful Modern Sonic finally take its place as "the only Sonic", even though Frontiers also suffers from many performance and design issues and is yet another different direction for Sonic. But hey, the serious grandiose Sonic is (kinda) back and the "meta era" Sonic of 2010s is gone, so that's better, right? Right? Anyway, I hope you can address some of the criticisms towards Superstars in your review video. Quite a few Sonic games to get there, though... Also, yeah, I wish Classic Sonic was handled better. He's not as cartoony and lighthearted as the modern games try to depict him -- seriously, Sonic CD is a perfect depiction of Sonic as a character, yet it seems to be kinda ignored.

[@gaminglakitu]

I think the idea would be super cool to be able to have two different interpretations of Sonic going on at the same time, almost kinda like a comic character like Spider-Man, but I think SEGA just simply wouldn't let it happen since they have such negative press from little to huge regarding Sonic that they just scramble stuff together to just try and avoid a shot storm, which I've just kinda accepted since corporations always win in the end. Great video as always Pariah! You once again prove why you're the ultimate Sonic philosopher lol

[@regissofi7138]

That what if cenario with classic sonic defeating a god in a AAA 3d game is what made me change my mind. That's why I love your channel, even though my first sonic game was 1, on a rented genesis in 2000 and I've been loving this series ever since I was 4, I still don't know everything nor do I think deeper. I always thought I wanted sonic to go back and be only one sonic, but now I understand why this would be bad and unnecessary, thank you

[@heftyrumble]

With the idea of adapting characters into different styles, that actually alignes with a few ideas I have been having recently. While Blaze in the modern games is dutifully upholding her role as princess of the Sol Dimension, I had an idea where maybe in a different classic universe, she doesn't like the idea of being a princess and wants to be a regular kid and enjoy life.

[@fordthelord1133]

I was introduced to Sonic with Mania and, as time goes on, I’ve started to like classic style games less. They’re great games and can be very satisfying, but are very limiting when it comes to game design. S3&K I feel perfected that game style, that’s why they decided to go a different way, along with trends at the time. Look at advance and rush, they introduced new concepts to keep it fresh and interesting! But with the “classic sonic” branding it’s like saying “we have Sonic games that will be JUST like S3&K only” now with cutesy Sonic. I’d prefer if they just made games based on what the devs want to make, and let them go ham with it with proper checks of quality. It’s impossible to appease every fan of a game, and Sonic team very much has budgetary restrictions (at least, they seem to with forces and frontiers, maybe not anymore), and I think the sentiment of “no classic!” Is coming from people who want a high quality game, rather than two meh games that are seen between frontiers and superstars.

[@redymedy]

the one problem here is that Knuckles being a treasure hunter CANT work without being the guardian of the master emerald, every time hes treasure hunting its because the Master Emerald has broke apart and he needs to find and put back together all the shards. Apart from this small issue, great video. Ton of good points and really made me think.

[@yuchun_]

Not really, Angel Island is his home, he is treasure hunting relics of his heritage. Considering how Marble Garden was literally destroyed (well, ignoring how in Knuckles' story it's right back where it was), it would not be farfetched to say he hasn't found everything.

[@SaddieMoon]

2:38 If this gets confirmed, this would make Archie having a ton of emeralds ironically accurate to the source material. 4:22 In a way, Archie kinda got this right with using just the Freedom Fighters at first. Characters who are directly based on the animal critters.

[@numbug1234]

I don't think that Sonic needs to be split up into a bunch of different canons as, personally, one of the things I like about the world of Sonic is that it really can just be a kitchen sink of whatever the fuck it wants, that this is a setting with both Wisps and Black Arms in it, or that it can handle one plot that's a loose allegory for an abusive relationship and another plot about Eggman winning only to find that what he was trying to get the whole game is the prototype for the Extreme Gear when he was using Extreme Gear the whole time. But besides that, I fully agree that making multiple Sonics to appeal to multiple demographics is a good and healthy design principle, and seems to be how Kishimoto views the franchise going for with the "three" styles of Classic, Adventure/Modern (what??? Those are not the same thing???), and whatever the "Frontiers style" evolves into.

[@SonicSatamAnimations]

Sonic adventure rebooted the franchise so therefore it = new cannon Sonic O6 is the game that started modern sonic

[@galten7361]

@@SonicSatamAnimations Adventure was in the spot between the Classic Era and Adventure 2. It has a villain made with Knuckles' ancestry in mind who is also a critter in an alliance with Eggman rather than being puppeted by him. We see humie NPCs for the first time but they aren't named and aren't who actually move the plot. We have Sonic in a "real" world (Station Square being Cancun in Sonic's world, Mystic Ruins being Sonic Mexico) with the zones well in line with the Genesis Era's style accounting for tech. Unleashed is when the direction that that was cemented in Colors started.

[@numbug1234]

@@SonicSatamAnimations Sonic Generations lmao

[@kilometersperminute4113]

Linear 2D, Linear 3D and Open Zone. From what I see, Classic Sonic is likely targeted towards a younger audience than Modern Sonic (plus Classic fans).

[@numbug1234]

@@kilometersperminute4113 The Adventure style is linear 3D, but Boost is a mix of 2D and 3D (and is sorta like if a platformer was designed like a racing game outright), they just do not fit in the same style.

[@coreyander286]

Most important thing to bring back from Classic Sonic is the R&B and Eurodisco vocal tracks.

[@ArticTiger]

I'm a fan of the og games and classic sonic, however I watched those games being played at a friends house, I was never allowed those consoles myself, and then gaming became a bigger thing while my obsession with Sonic remained. I watched sonic go 3D, and even on a Nintendo console! I didn't care that he now had green eyes or whatever but by this time I was finally allowed a console, so the adventure games were the first ones I was able to beat by myself. then 06 happened and the story that was progressing seemed to abruptly STOP due to its reception. I think a lot of us see (modern) Classic Sonic as a side effect of this. I would not be surprised at all if that's where the vitriol comes from. On another note- Knuckles being a treasure hunter is out of necessity, only because he can sense the pieces of the master emerald, I guess.

[@randomnpc445]

The tidbit about 2/3 through the video of people going "Um, well, actually there can't be a classic [character] because of the canon!!" really resonated with me. After the announcement of that Shadow outfit for Sonic in Sonic Superstars the other day, I saw plenty of people on twitter going "aww I was hoping we'd get an actual classic Shadow design," followed be replies of people saying _exactly that_ . "There can't be a classic Shadow, he's not a classic character." "I wouldn't fit with the canon of the characters." Bro _who cares_ ? Those are arbitrary restrictions placed on the series and characters by SEGA themselves. They don't have to exist. Would it really be that big of a deal if Shadow actually showed up in Sonic Superstars? Genuinely? And when you combine it with the idea you proposed in this video, where they use the "classic" games to reinterpret characters in a way that would be more in-line with the way the series was back in the pre-Adventure days, having people hold so tightly to those arbitrary restrictions is that much more frustrating. It's such a good idea that I would _love_ to see honed and refined, and it's sad to think that it will probably never happen. Not with the way things are going now, anyway.

[@murilosampaio1264]

Besides, it was just a fucking skin, not that it mattered or not if shadow was or wasn't there during the classic era, just a cosmetic change or a possible "what if" scenario

[@kilometersperminute4113]

The whole point of the Classic brand is to milk nostalgia and to satisfy Classic fans. Sega doesn't want Modern stuff crossing over to Classic because (I think) they are terrified of offending Classic fans by injecting Modern elements into the Classic universe.

[@UltimateTS64]

As someone who enjoys both Modern and Classic Sonic, I'm personally on the side of Classic needs to go still. Your idea of just having both versions be their own things and treating it almost like Boom is cool, but with the limitations they've placed on Classic Sonic now, I don't think it would add much. What bothers me about Classic Sonic nowadays is that they don't do anything interesting with him. Ever since Generations all they've done is revisit old levels in 3 games (Generations, Mania, and Forces), release another compilation of Classic Sonic games, and Superstars might as well be revisiting old zones cause they added nothing new. On top of that, they don't allow the characters to speak and only allow for minimal story which ruins any potential for it to be interesting when there's not much there. That's why I wasn't even excited for Superstars, cause there just seemed to be nothing cool or exciting to draw me in, it's just Classic Sonic with less personality and polish. Since Classic Sonic basically is just the 2D form of the franchise now, I see Classic Sonic almost like New Super Mario Bros., accept they straight up have a different universe for it rather than the classic 2d gameplay having the modern designs. NSMB I think does a better job bridging the gap because at least some 3D moves made their way into 2D like the wall jump, triple jump, and ground pound which helped liven up the gameplay some in the first NSMB. If they wanna revisit the 2D gameplay I say do another Advance style game where they can bring in the modern elements with the Classic gameplay. Cause as it is, they've just caused an unnecessary divide in the fanbase that doesn't exist for other series. If they wanna keep Classic around for merch and stuff that's fine, but I feel like trying to canonically make him his own character just causes brand confusion and makes the series seem even more unfocused than it already is.

[@AlexanTheMan]

I'd actually much rather they finally redesign "modern" AKA Dreamcast Sonic. We've had him for over two decades already.

[@yuchun_]

Dreamcast Sonic doesn't exist anymore though, there is a clear difference when comparing Dreamcast era models, renders, and even 2D artwork by the same dude, to actual "modern" Sonic, aka the design used since 2005. He literally did get redesigned, and yes, we've indeed had him for almost two decades. If it was dreamcast sonic we'd have had him for almost three...not to mention just better since fundamentally the models they used were much more expressive, so even if it'd have gotten stale it'd at least do the job.

[@AlexanTheMan]

@@yuchun_ Well I mean on branding principle they are practically identical besides console technical limitations and a few subtle design changes like the plastic sheen or the limbs getting slightly longer. By Unleashed, Sonic's design has stayed the same ever since and SEGA conformed to not doing anything radical or drastic to freshen up the brand like some pseudo-staying power. Despite all this, the Dreamcast design language of Sonic is still very much familiar throughout.

[@yuchun_]

@@AlexanTheMan I still disagree, the only thing that's exactly the same is the eye color. The limb length and how certain parts of him are shaped (his quills, especially in super form, his shoes, his face etcetera) are honestly radically different. Like he has LIPS now, even as a kid that bothered me. Also, might be a hot take, but I believe Sonic Boom was gonna be mainline before the intensely negative reaction to the redesigns, possibly even a reboot. Nobody dumps a load of cash into a project for 5 years if it's just a little spinoff. I believe Boom being retconned into a spinoff was just damage control. I say this because if this assumption of mine is true, we did get a redesign, it was just universally panned (and for good reason since imo it was an unbalanced mess which failed to capitalize on Bob Rafei's original conceptual sketches). Honestly this conversation is getting nowhere so I just wanna know if you agree on Boom. Imo it's something I'm surprised nobody has considered.

[@PipesReturns]

Wow. You are a VERY convincing person. I have always been one of the 3 or so people to support the entire Modern-Classic character split and I always felt Classic growing up to be Modern HAS to happen, but after watching this I just kinda realised that.... yeah it's kinda dumb huh. Why do I have to care so much about strictly adhering to 1 specific concept of canon if it simply limits what the franchise can do. Honestly a soft reboot would probably be the best direction for the series, doing some small changes to allow for better storytelling potential while still keeping variations of most notable events in the canon.

[@sauzeefy]

When people say that they dont like having multiple sonics, I think they are usually just referring to them coexisting as seperate characters in generations and forces and whatnot.

[@internetloser2336]

I think another think people are tired of is how frequently the Classic Sonic games get re-released. It really feels like Sega just don't care for anything past SA2 when it comes to porting over any of the 2000s games. A lot of kids from the 2000s (like me) are grown up at this point and we rarely get ports of stuff that came out from our era. You can enjoy games from a different generation and also have your own personal childhood games you'd like to see come back. I mean heck we're still missing Heros, Shadow The Hedgehog, Unleashed, the storybook games, and the GBA and DS titles but instead it's just another port of the classic games or a game where Classic Sonic comes back. To put this in perspective a bit the first sonic game came out back in 1991 and it's currently (as of writing this comment) 2024. That's a whopping 33 years that 90s kids have constantly gotten ports, remakes, and even new games with their version of Sonic in it.

[@runningoncylinders3829]

This is so good to have numerous Sonics. Even if by tongue and cheek he’s the same guy the character is long-running and flexible. TMNT and Spidey good comparisons. Even the Boom version, and each of the old cartoons and comics even if left in the past give the same impression of what the characters can be when they’re all parallel and varied and reimagining the Sonic each of us wants and enjoys.

[@kingstarscream3807]

I made sure to buy Sonic Origins and Mania for my nephews so that they can appreciate the classics.

[@wreday720]

Dude I would love to just have a beer with you and talk Sonic for a good few hours, all your latest takes have been floating around in my head for the last few years and I thought I was the only one noticing this But greatest takeaway - different Sonics is definitely the way to go. Megaman series does this really really well and Sega should learn from that model

[@CuriousGuy_]

Specifically talking about what you said regarding Knuckles not being the guardian of the master emerald, I wouldn't want that changed, but I do agree with your sentiment that separating classic and modern into different itetations is probably a good idea. I do think something like this should be done carefully though, adding onto that idea though something I wish this series did is a reboot back to the end of SA2 and have only the original trilogy and SA1 as canon to the reboot, because I feel like SA2 was the last time were the series had some semblance of cohesion, to me anyway, also I think there's a lot of unexplored stuff they could of done after SA2 that they could explore in a reboot. The same could be done with original Sonic, reboot back to the end of Sonic 3, and both of these coukd give Sonic team so many possibilities for stories in future games!

[@Brianycus]

I think OG Sonic blended into Modern Sonic and to have that 2D to 3D difference in games, they gave us Classic Sonic since 2011.

[@Talxic]

i was actually so hyped for this vidoe thank you pariah

[@JPMaverickX7]

When I was younger, my first Sonic media was the cut scene movie on Sonic 06. Yes really. And for years. "modern" Sonic WAS Sonic to me. Although I knew about classic, it took me a little time to actually play them as I needed to be older. When I got the Sonic classic collection on my DS as my first Sonic game I owned, I was absolutely blown away. Those games and that Sonic are still some of my all time favorites. I have come to absolutely love classic/ old Sonic but I also love modern just as much. I can see both sides of it. I even love Archie Sonic and all that jazz. Sonic is Sonic is Sonic. All the same guy but different orisons and/or time periods (if you like that sorta thing). Sega will never please everyone and people forget that some times. Your point that we always have had different Sonics is completely valid. Loved that. Keep it up my dude!

[@tadaokou4919]

This is a classic Piariah695 video already

[@Gnidel]

I love the idea of classic game with modern style stories and voice acting. This is how I imagine how Sonic CD opening and Sonic 3&K would be followed up without being hollow husk that replicates great gameplay but lacks the same epicness as S3&K, which was my big issue with both Mania and Superstars. It would also allow for creation of great prequel with story with characters with undeveloped dynamics - Sonic and Knuckles would still be at least slightly antagonistic, Amy would be lovesick stalker, Tails would be more like a kid playing with gadgets and not Eggman-tier genius... We could even throw in Classic Rouge in the mix to show that Knuckles and Rouge knew each other or explain why Master Emerald is in open space in Adventure. Using it as prequel to Adventure games would add more depth that could be explored with different perspective than classic games. And on "one Sonic" - it makes exploring the rabbit hole way better. When everything is it's own continuity, then it's not possible to develop it that much compared to unified canon that allows more and more depth with each new thing released.

[@charmyzard]

When will Pariah show us his reboot interpretation as a coherent thing? Doors indeed open as some close.

[@danjoshdp6257]

Very good video Pariah! This and your last video have really gotten to the core issues relating to what Sonic is and the fan base. As you pointed out, the solutions may actually be quite simple!

[@raunak0983]

Whats weird for me is that my first sonic game was Sonic generations, and as we know that game had both classic and modern sonic. Then i was able to get the mobile ports of the classic sonic games and able to play (and get) the newer modern sonic games. Making it so that i grew up with both sonics and have the same level of respect for both the sonics. In terms of which one i do prefer, it is classic sonic but thats not from a gameplay point of view, for me its just design wise and how you can tell what his intents are without him speaking,

[@ZacharyDietze]

I think the first Archie continuity did the smart thing by mainly ignoring any of the games and shows at the time and instead mainly just did its own thing by taking characters and elements from almost everything into one new and bigger story, and it was cool because classic and show characters you would normally not see in anything else past their original purpose got new interpretations. I think marking another similar separate universe but with "modern" characters in classic designs with its own set of new characters would be fantastic. You know who else would be a perfect treasure hunter in a more "modern" style if they *have* to keep that Master Emerald aspect? Fang! He is literally *perfect* for something like that, better yet do a role reversal between the two, have Fang as a treasure hunter in the classics with Knuckles as a guardian, and have Fang as a rare high priced for hire "guardian" while Knuckles is a treasure hunter in modern, but noooo, Sega has to keep Team Hooligan locked to the original style for some reason. And it turns out, *yes* there is a fan effort of making a SATAM season 3, and *yes* there is a fan continuation of the Archie continuity with ArchieSonicOnline, *who would've thought?* Oh I'm sorry there's people who like the whole Sonally dynamic and are now telling each other to kill themselves just because they prefer the currently nothing burger excuse of Sonamy that Sega is afraid of doing and doing it right? *Lmao ok.* You know, for as controversial as Boom was, at least it mostly *tried* to do something different. I don't hate IDW, but man it could've been so much better if the writers had more freedom to experiment and bring back whatever characters/settings they wanted. Sticking exclusive things to "classic" and "modern" Sonic is toxic. I disagree with the fact that classic is different from "original", I think they're actually trying too hard to make it the same, and the only difference is that there are now more animated cutscenes, which are also done very similarly to CD. Everyone loved Mania, so that must mean they have to make absolutely all the other classic stuff be similar right? God forbid that Mania was only like that to celebrate Sonic's beginning, I guess we have to do that for all the other classic styled games too. What's that? Other fans are also trying to do something different with games like Triple Trouble 16-Bit, SRB2, SRB2Kart, Galactic, Overture, and even a more complex Mario Maker with Sonic Studio? *Nah, just keep it all the same every single time but with less effort like in Superstars.* (To clarify, I don't hate Superstars, but it comes across as an asset dump on a 3DS or PSVITA from after developing Generations. It would've been acceptable at that time, but now, not so much) I know it's extremely drawn out and cliche at this point, but if there is any company that should be accepting the multiverse aspect to excuse more diverse projects and continuities, it should be Sega. It's a shame that only the fans have to do all that work for them. Lazily saying that "everything is canon" and not doing anything about it to separate most things is one of the dumbest things a company like them hoping to profit off of everything can do. Oh sure a franchise like Mega Man also has a main universe between the classics, X, Zero, and Legends, but that's only because the events of each of those series can take hundreds if not thousands of years apart, (You know, because most of the characters until Legends are robots in seemingly endless wars) and even with the whole shared universe angle they were still smart enough to keep each series distinctly different. Even Namco as lazy as they are don't treat all the interpretations of Pac-Man as the same, so why Sega is afraid of doing that with Sonic I honestly have no idea…

[@blues4509]

I've been saying this for years so I'm glad to see someone with a similar outlook on this. Been thinking Sonic Team should make three types of games. 2d titles with "classic" Sonic starring in them and as you say progressing forward in the timeline with original characters, forgotten characters from the era or reimagined versions of modern characters (this I haven't thought of so great idea). Secondly, adventure styled games with that rendition of 3d game play with the big anime storylines and other playable characters with their own story and such. Lastly bring back the storybook games or at the very least have standalone adventures for Sonic where they're designed like the boost games, with the story being light but still present like in Unleashed. This way every type of fan is happy and gets to eat, as for fans like you or me we get triple the games to enjoy. I, too, like all versions of Sonic myself so I don't want any of them to go away. Personally I prefer the boost games even though I grew up on the adventure games and went back to play the classics thanks to the mega/gems collections. So I have a deep appreciation and enjoyment for all styles even if I naturally have a preference.

[@definitelynotaweeb6879]

7:25 I have never felt so called out in my entire life

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

I would love a classic 3D game. Imagine something like SRB2 with the visuals of generations or superstars.

[@PopularNoise]

i really like what you said about a classic sonic game with heavy emphasis on story and fighting a god at the end. I think their next classic sonic experience should be like this to really switch it up on us

[@Behr_Streamin]

I grew up on Sonic Colors DS so I have a mix of love for modern and classic as I’m use to 2d and modern. Overall I love Sonic as a whole with my favorite games being Sonic CD and Adventure 2

[@RealestShaggyRogers]

Honestly I wish they didn't deprive him of a voice. OVA sonic's voice was a fun and fitting take for the character

[@yuchun_]

Plus he literally talked in Sonic CD. The whole "mute sonic" thing is at best retroactive bullshit, and at worse, a way to ignore the original actress, who actually sang toot toot sonic warrior, suspiciously lacking the vocals in the original 2011 remake. Plus just factually they just didn't wanna pay Jaleel White. Sega has always treated most of their voice actors like shit, this is not a subjective take. No decent company asks someone to leave a union, like they did with Ryan Drummond.

[@AHylianWarrior]

I've been a Sonic fan since the very birth of Sonic and sorry, I do not like classic Sonic IN ITS CURRENT FORM. I got to emphasise that as I hate the 3D modelling of him, Sonic Mania hit that perfect sweet spot, Superstars is kind of very average if a little below. I want a balance between 3D Sonic and classic Sonic, not whatever the hell Superstars was doing. I also want to be able to play as Sonic's friends in both types of Sonic and while they've started bringing that back I still hope they try out the pixel look again and not...whatever the hell is going on with Superstars lol Also keep classic Sonic out of modern Sonic's games. I hate him there lmao

[@jazerc2355]

Omg two videos in a road, this is like chrismas but the akward family reunion

[@lasercraft32]

It doesn't help that Classic Sonic was the worst part of Sonic Forces, an already bad game... Had zero plot relevance, was just there to please classic fans, and his levels were awful (looking at you, auto-scrolling level). His physics were so bad that there is one level where you start running down a hill, but you cannot go up the hill at the end unless you do a spin dash or something. Really soured my opinion of him not gonna lie... I grew up with the boost games like Unleashed, Colors, etc. so I prefer that gameplay over classic Sonic gameplay. Even in Generations where Classic Sonic was handled well, I just would have rather been Modern Sonic. Classic 2D side-scrolling Sonic (where the camera barely lets you see ahead of you) isn't the Sonic for me. I have no issues with him getting his _own_ games though. I just don't like their insistence with shoehorning Classic Sonic into the modern games like they did with Forces (luckily they haven't done that again since).

[@Magma-Idiot-2001]

Ever since I learned that the Super Emerald were separate from the regular Chaos Emeralds, I gained a head canon that Knuckles (before becoming his modern counterpart) hid the Super Emeralds using the Master Emerald so Eggman nor Sonic would come after them. Speaking he is not okay with anyone messing with the Master Emerald, I imagined that he be protective over the super emeralds as well after the events of Sonic Origins was done.

[@thatguywiththefunnyprofile1644]

From my perspective, I don’t mind having both be coexisting. However, I do understand, and partially agree with, how some don’t want Classic and Modern Sonic to be separate. Simply put, for the longest time, Sega were trying to make it seem like Classic Sonic was just young Sonic. After all, Both Sonic Adventure and Sonic Generations explicitly state/show that Classic and Modern are the same Sonic. After you beat Modern Green Hill and Chemical Plant in Generations, Modern Sonic and Modern Tails take time to reminisce about those places. In the intro to Amy’s story in Adventure, she specifically recalls her experience on Little Planet in Sonic CD. And those are just some of the few examples I can immediately think of when on this topic.

[@NewSkater3000]

ok i've already commented but this video is phenomenal all around. I like the idea of the very unique sonic cannons and the knuckles example was a great one! i wish SEGA could actually do this

[@sethhorst6158]

I personally appreciate the multiple iterations of Sonic, a little bit of something for everyone. Looking back, there's many iterations of classic, and modern sonics. The soap shoes era was also something

[@emrass7721]

What you were describing in your thought experiment is my ideal Sonic game artistically. I'd love for there to be a Sonic game that takes the best of both worlds, rather than sticking to one. Also speaking on the "Classic Sonic is eventually Adventure Sonic" thing, the way I would do it would be that there are all these different branches of Sonic like you propose, but they all (except when it wouldn't work) branch from the same spot like, lets say Sonic 3 for example.