Lets learn DBFZ! - Defensive options after a blocked vanish attack

[@Rooflemonger]

Seeing a lot of people wanting vanish nerfed for the incoming patch, which I think is kinda crazy!(seriously It don't need to be nerfed) I am assuming its just a lack of knowledge of your options so time to get learning!

[@Fier07112]

rooflemonger not always true.... I’ve played a lot of matches where the vanish was minus and was baffled... had me thinking they nerfed it until I tried and got wrecked!!! Idk if it was a glitch or what

[@Rooflemonger]

If it was minus then you were probably higher up than usual (as described in this video) when you landed the vanish.

[@benjaminanderson9710]

rooflemonger the king is back! I've been in some form of stasis not playing fighterz at all because of this new patch, I really want to play Nappa, are you feeling the same?

[@Rooflemonger]

Nappa on hold til the patch, although mostly because I basically feel forced to play vegeta on my nappa team and no way vegeta comes out unchanged.

[@benjaminanderson9710]

rooflemonger yeah vegeta adds a lot to his options, I think tien and kid bu or Yamcha just anything to keep +on block and something to get your aerial down heavy, seems a lot of people like tien for it

[@discoverarcane]

Ah yes, a good rooflemonger video to complete my day.

[@archeroftime123]

Terry Washington agreed :)

[@jjeoy]

Making the videos that no one else is. Thank you Rooflemonger.

[@ClankyR2]

ANOTHA ONE! hell yes! ROOFLE I AM ONCE AGAIN HIGH AND I AM ONCE AGAIN GRATEFUL FOR YOUR VIDEOS!

[@KevinFrenchpiisceiss]

That last segment about height determining if vanish is plus on block cleared up so much for me. I have gotten so salty because I'll vanish thinking I'm plus and just loosing my shit because I'm being hit out of it. Thank you for confirming this

[@Rooflemonger]

Happy it helped friend!

[@FancyMyBuisness]

Kevin French I thought I was the only one!

[@bryanE26]

Great vid lol. I usually only plan to deflect after a vanish. Might have to add back into the mix. If it's a character that I need to deflect twice again, I'll usually just deflect into super dash instead

[@Skellbit1999]

Very helpful. Thanks!

[@johnhelmes8261]

Vanish is actually neutral on block but you can cancel landing frames into a normal, which makes you plus. you can test this by recording the dummy to jump after vanish, then you block and jump at the same time.

[@semja]

Pretty informative as always

[@dagangstah]

Great video. I'd kinda like to see a little more info on when Vanish is negative but other then that I loved everything here, definitely have to add that back dash option to my game.

[@Rooflemonger]

Well the only time vanish is ever negative, is if they are higher than normal above you, that's it. You gotta eyeball it for the most part.

[@paulstokowski1466]

Despite the fact that in most cases I do punish ppl with down heavy after they vanish, I do sometimes end with situations were you actually can't do it (assist strings). Useful tip.

[@mrtoast3319]

I think the reason most want vanish nerfed is because of the online lag makes reacting to one rough. Its easy to react to vanish in training with zero delay now try to react to it with 5+ input delay.

[@Rooflemonger]

Agreed, but now I am at the point if I see the delay ever hit 5+ in a match, that's it no rematch I am checking out at the end of the fight.

[@MegaProRacer]

Exactly I live somewhere where getting perfect or great connection is impossible. That's one reason why I think it should put both players on neutral.

[@MrMissingnin44]

I was the teen gohan,goku,vegeta you traded games with yesterday. good games

[@Ilovevidgames123]

Rocking classic Z Fighters squad, huh?

[@eay1652]

Roofle, 16 and broly are not the only ones that catch backdash. Technically speaking, Cell and Goku black can also do the same thing because their second hit of their autocombo will catch you, which is usually what everyone's going to do if they press buttons after a vanish. I also think Hit can catch you but Im not sure about him so don't quote me on this one.

[@Rooflemonger]

Generally speaking if cell/goku black tag you it means you were slow on your backdash, You do have enough time to backdash and block. I do myself get tagged by them when I forget/disrespect the reach because then I am trying my own move after the backdash though. Those are characters I try to deflect instead. But Broly/16 are the only characters to have you 100% dead to rights on the backdash just mashing buttons.

[@eay1652]

Yeah, but there will be no point in backdashing at that point anyways since you're either gonna get hit or block. I should have worded it better but what Im trying to say is you shouldn't backdash vs those characters as well since it's useless and will likely put you in trouble.

[@Rooflemonger]

There isn't no point because distance is a thing. If I was say, already walking back when I blocked a goku black vanish, then backdashed, his second auto combo hit would whiff at that point since I have already gained XYZ distance while walking backwards before the block. This isn't an every time situation but it is one, at which point if you hit a button after your backdash you will whiff punish the 2nd hit of his auto combo. Cell though yeah mostly just deflect, although dash->deflect also viable enough since it still gets you out of dragon rush range if you think someone is prone enough to do so.

[@eay1652]

I guess it is all really situational. I still think those 2 characters were at least worth a mention in the video though.

[@Ilovevidgames123]

Could Kid Buu do it if he went for 5M?

[@moistmorsel9233]

I've noticed that there are some occasions where the plus on block doesn't seem to be enough. In particular blueku's L mash seems rather quick in comparison to Ginyu post vanish. Anyone fancy labbing this out to confirm or deny?

[@Rooflemonger]

The only situation where a vanish attack defender's jab will beat the offensive jab is adult gohan vs 16. Any other situation and someone was slow on the draw.

[@mrmysterycake]

Roof, honest question. I'm really frustrated for not understanding the tag mechanics. Is there a frame delay of switching in your assist after block? Once I'm free from the opponent's block string, I hold forward + assist, but it shows an "X" on top of the assist I want to switch in for a good second before the switch actually takes place. Why is there a delay even if I'm not currently in block stun?

[@Rooflemonger]

You are not allowed to tag after blocking right away. To prevent panic tags basically and so you can't get out freely if there is any gap. I don't know the exact frame number but its very much on purpose and for the best imo.

[@mrmysterycake]

rooflemonger okay thanks. That makes sense. I just wanted to know why. Guess I'll just have to do more guard switches instead.

[@zonkrt3463]

best dbfz channel

[@byRilex]

Backdashing also loses hard to 2M from Characters like Cell, Trunks and Gohan.

[@Rooflemonger]

2m from characters like Cell, Trunks, and Gohan loses hard to you hitting your own button after blocked vanish. Its not air tight like 16/Broly which is why I didn't bring it up. I am the kind of player that will challenge you on EVERYTHING, so for me someone who thinks they can just so something like that is fresh meat for the grinder.

[@MrKickassFTW]

I was just about to ask you to make a vid on this after watching your recent vids lol

[@Rooflemonger]

Now ask yourself if this was fortuitous luck, or am I inside your head.

[@Greggers1516]

i always wait for them to vanish and after he does, he doesnt do anything but right after he hits, i hit him, and he somehow blocks it in that small time frame but when i do, hes able to hit me

[@TruthAndReconciliation]

Does aerial vanish have different frame data? Anytime I cancel Gotenk's shout into vanish, I end up negative

[@Rooflemonger]

All vanishes are aerial. The thing that makes it advantage is when you land (when hitting a blocking foe) it cancels your recovery so you return to neutral first. As explained in the video its only ever negative if you make them block it when they are off the ground in any way or their movement made you go higher up than normal.

[@unsolol]

Need to lab but is reflect not also counterd by a low kick after a vanish ?

[@Rooflemonger]

Nope. The only times lows beat reflects is when its in a true block string. So the reason why its "beating" it at that point, is because you are standing(holding back) and thus not blocking low. Anything with any amount of gap, like after a vanish, you can freely deflect and deflect beats lows just like it beats any other attack.

[@xLightcrystalx]

Martin Szarnas haven't tested it but I don't see why a low hit would beat deflect. Deflect beats everything except grabs I think.

[@TJizzle82]

If you could, do a video explain how to deal with sparking pressure. Please!

[@Rooflemonger]

That would be a bit more difficult cause honestly its just block heh. Ill consider it though if theres a way i could go through it that would make sense.

[@lrdalucardart]

Backdash s where buffed in this new patch btw.

[@princeofpanair5030]

It’s so funny hearing that the back dash isn’t the best against Broly. The first time I did a successful back dash after blocking vanish was against Broly with Vegeta blue and got a combo off it. Either I got lucky or Vegeta’s height was a good thing for once.

[@Rooflemonger]

The esteemed Broly player was unfortunately just off in his timing. If 16/Broly do it right there is just no way to backdash out.

[@grimsmith7565]

I've vanished an still get beaten out by standing jab idk if im playin the same game

[@Rooflemonger]

Then you attacking way to slow after your blocked vanish. If you vanish and are blocked against a grounded foe, its absolutely your turn short of edge case scenarios like 16 vs Adult gohan.

[@grimsmith7565]

Ok i'll check it out thanks

[@Ilovevidgames123]

2:11 THE RETURN OF "BINGO BANGO BONGO" Hey, Roofle, is it possible to DHC into the H+S version of Broly's level 3 super?

[@Rooflemonger]

Nope, the tag supers are fixed. So its always gonna be his standard version.

[@Ilovevidgames123]

I knew the tag supers were fixed but I was hoping that since it was put into the game as a separate version of the same super it might skirt the rule. Oh well. Guess it makes sense. It would be fairly easy to combo into with someone like Kid Buu (the falling-down beams from Human Extinction Attacks could smack you down into it with the right timing midscreen or with no timing in the corner). Would be a bit too strong.

[@Ilovevidgames123]

Thanks for the reply!

[@spikktoriousa4048]

I loVe YoUr Videosssss yesss

[@TJizzle82]

You are the best!

[@fireflocs]

Would Kid Buu's down+medium beat the backdash?

[@Rooflemonger]

Yes, but then it loses to you just mashing jab infront of his face. Any move with enough range to catch a backdash (minus 16/broly jab) will auto-lose to you just mashing your own jab because they won't be fast enough.

[@eay1652]

Yes

[@fireflocs]

I know there's no perfect option, I just wanna make sure that 16 and Broly aren't the only ones with normals you'd have to watch out for in that situation.

[@Rooflemonger]

I mention them because they are the characters that don't have to change up their gameplan. Kid buu (and other characters like say adult gohan slide or something, or anyone forward dashing in general) have to introduce an element of risk into the gameplan to catch you exposing themselves.

[@sotwiis7ed]

this is another one of those rock/paper/scissor situations but juat a bit different than the usual situations its all about training your opponents to do what you want :3 vanish is used so frequently you want to know all your options using and defending it

[@manny77min]

You should update this video with the improved backdash

[@Rooflemonger]

oh lord so many old videos need updates. I hope I can get around to it in time.

[@jerrymackin193]

Idk roof, I’m not in a position to say whether it’s good or bad but I do know it feels cheap when you’re full screen and someone just throws a beam, vanishes, and now they get to be in your face with pressure for the very low cost of 1 bar. Like what nobody wants to play neutral or footsies anymore? I’ve long understood the options against it but they are all somewhat risky basically requiring a hard read in order to get out of the situation lest you decide to just hold the blocks. That’s one aspect and the other is that it seems like actions have no consequence. There’s nothing that’s 100% unsafe anymore because the threat of vanish. The threat should be there that if I vanish you have to read it, but at some point the right read should be rewarded without having to play another game of Russian roulette on what to do after I block your vanish. Maybe it’s my experience playing NRS games talking, because all teleport moves are always unsafe in inj2, but as a playstyle it seems very reminiscent of a Goku Black doing aerial godslicers while calling assists.

[@Rooflemonger]

Its the nature of this game. That in essence is a part of this games neutral really. There's too many mobility options and other things like it to have "footsies" like you would think in some other games. That said I don't think vanish is near strong enough to warrant what a lot of people are complaining about at it which is exactly why I made this video.

[@dcuodrake2460]

Is it just me or is it impossible to back dash Agohan

[@Rooflemonger]

You can easily backdash him.

[@LuckyKo]

I make so many victims that mash after vanish :D

[@tiffanykloss1219]

How Are You rooflemonger?

[@Rooflemonger]

how am I not

[@jebronekitty]

I don't like how much pressure is on this game. But spending a bar to gain pressure is cool.

[@erbonprzi2502]

What do you do when you run into a player that's just flat-out better than you?.. I ran into a Fat Buu and Krillin bro I couldn't do nothing..rekt

[@teleportaat]

Prezidential Prezi you lose man. Then you hit Training and hone your skills.

[@Rooflemonger]

Well if someone is straight better than you, they are straight better than you thems the breaks. There's nothing to cheese it out fighting games break down to pure skill in the end.

[@fireflocs]

Try to recognize that they're out of your league as early as you can, that way, you can spend as much of the match as possible just watching what they do and trying to learn from it. And don't beat yourself up for losing.

[@Rooflemonger]

Fighting games are about the ever improving journey to better yourself and a lot of skills you learn transfer from one game to the next. If someone stomps you, watch the reply learn what exactly they did, why they hit you in XYZ situation, and learn to cut those weaknesses out of your game.

[@eay1652]

rooflemonger I really wish everyone would do that same thing when getting stomped instead of rage quitting like the children they are.

[@SuperInexplicable]

Tien has best deflect animation

[@Rooflemonger]

Hell yeah he does, he just yells stuff down kzbin.info/www/bejne/b5aUY5x3d5eEb68

[@xamrock6123]

free

[@xthelegionargamingx6030]

Beerus

[@wallakfir90]

I hope that Vegito's deflect animation is him kicking the ki blasts with his hands crossed, like he did in his fight against Super Buu.

[@tomasavi6490]

The top tiers ignore reflect and backdash after vanish

[@Rooflemonger]

They sure don't.

[@Rooflemonger]

Literally only 16 and broly can hit you backdashing with a normal, certain characters you just deflect twice instead of once. That's it. I say in the video don't be a victim and that's honestly victim mentality.

[@tomasavi6490]

rooflemonger No, they create an extra and unnecessary layer of yomi, since you have to reflect twice vs most of them they can bait you into doing 2 reflects and punishing the second whiffed reflect. If you only reflect once and then do nothing they just keep pressuring as if nothing happened and if you reflect twice you are putting yourself at risk ( let's not forget it's a risk to even reflect once since you can be grabbed into full combo) and also in the middle of a match there are heights/situations in which they just hit you out of your reflect/backdash because of the length of their second hit of Autocombo or some crazy medium attack. If everyone else could brainlessly throw normals out while creating many layers of thought I'd be fine but only the top tier can do that

[@Rooflemonger]

You are overthinking this. What you are describing doesn't happen in real matches. Cell won't stand jab, get reflected, then "yomi layer" delay kamehameha (cause that's the only thing that will reach after the deflect) for crap damage to beat a 2nd whiffed deflect. Once again, don't be a victim you have options work with them.

[@tomasavi6490]

rooflemonger replace Kamehameha with 2M and crap damage with 8k and then tell me that (I'm testing this right now and there are many ways to do this)

[@Sam-qw8rq]

He got all these tips from Jtails the other day and makes a video of his own

[@Rooflemonger]

Lol no. I don't rip nobody off, although I myself seem to get ripped off a lot. This is like my 8th or 9th video on defense? I check that guys channel and that's seemingly his first.

[@Rooflemonger]

Normally I am a nice guy but don't post stupid shit like that, makes you look like a jealous bum.

[@Sam-qw8rq]

rooflemonger woah man, from a fellow KZbinr you’re gonna get shit like this as your channel grows. Ignore it and move on, was just a spontaneous comment on a coincidence I thought could be true.

[@Rooflemonger]

Well it ain't. Unlike 99% of channels out there I read every comment and I ain't gonna tolerate accusations like that. If someone does inspire a video(which is almost always a twitter post) I will give them credit up front but I have been a victim of having my stuff jacked, almost in the exact order I have presented everything way too many times to have someone accuse me of doing exactly that. Its disrespectful.

[@Sam-qw8rq]

rooflemonger that’s life brother. My shit continues to get stolen even years later, I’d advise you not to get so invested in the comments, but this little back and forth makes me think it was probably just a coincidence!