LICENSING! (The Seven Deadly Sins of TCG Design Part 5!)

[@supersnackbros2423]

"It's hard to pin down what Star Wars really is." Someone finally has the stones to say it.

[@keirgomcginlay2044]

I always say that Star Wars is a great big toy box. No-one actually loves the stories of the movies as much as they love the narrative toy box that it offers.

[@Shenaldrac]

@@keirgomcginlay2044 I mostly agree, but I think that there is genuine charm to the protagonists from the original trilogy. I think that plenty of people really do love Han, Luke, and Leia as characters. Even if the story is a very basic Hero's Journey, I think the characters themselves stand out on their own, and on the strength of the actors and actresses. That being said, yeah the setting offering so much potential is a huge part of why it's persisted, why the EU is, well, a thing at all.

[@keirgomcginlay2044]

@@Shenaldrac Oh I'm not saying there isn't genuine charm. I'm not even calling the overall stories bad. But they ARE overshadowed by the toybox of the universe. (Ie A being better than B does not make B bad.) That we got an enjoyable and well preformed cast made peoples desires to play with that toybox all the more palpable.

[@Shenaldrac]

@@keirgomcginlay2044 Ah, fair. I suppose I interpreted " No one loves the story of the movies as much as the toy box" as "no one loves the story" which... yeah kinda bad reading comprehension failure on my part!

[@keirgomcginlay2044]

@@Shenaldrac It's easy done. No worries.

[@zachall1573]

Hearthstone is based on the Warcraft franchise which has been going since 1994, but even they have to invent their own characters, stories and mechanics apart from WoW. It's to the point where the Hearthstone world is like the Saturday morning cartoon version of the gritty war thriller World of Warcraft.

[@Fisherington]

They realized they're getting so big, they CAN invent their own characters. Or take existing characters and places and just put their own spin on it, like Karazhan and now Scholomance. Warcraft is rich enough that they could have stuck to just pure Warcraft characters if they wanted to, but not taking it too seriously paid off.

[@theunwelcome]

there was also a licensed WoW tcg in paper form, it actually lasted a lot longer than I ever expected although I wouldn't say it was any level of groundbreaking

[@Scapegoat-po2ou]

Hearthstone is also made by the same company that made Warcraft and WoW.

[@VorpalDerringer]

And Warcraft is an ameliorated version of Warhammer Fantasy...so Hearthstone is the Rambo: The Force of Freedom of fantasy properties...

[@Petrico94]

The early cards borrowed art from the failing tcg before it and it saved time, plus a lot of that art was pretty nice. I'm sad they felt it needed to be "updated" or "reworked for a new overseas profitable market who don't like violence so we're trashing the international version to kowtow to them". Everyone knew what was going on, it's change for no reason except everyone knows the real reason$. I liked new art each set, before getting tired of all the balance patches, but I was fine with all the previous art and succubus existing. Borrowing characters and story from an established world isn't bad. Representing them correctly in the card system or giving exciting mechanics and interactions is what makes it fun and helps it feel in that world. Plus it's not like a lot of Warcraft isn't recycled LotR and other pop culture references, Hearthsone just manages to feel a lot more tongue and cheek.

[@QuintMarvel]

Personally, as a consumer, nothing tells me something is cheap like screenshots. I appreciate stock assets way more than screen shots. I have a few failed Anime TCGs and they all use lots and lots of screen shots from the anime.

[@RogueCheepSheep]

@@nmr7203 You should see the upcoming Blazblue Exceed; In game screenshots of moves on the training stage. Really put a damper on my interest in the set. I'd take screenshots from an anime over screenshots from a 2D fighting game.

[@austinreed7343]

@@RogueCheepSheep Using the raw sprites would have been better.

[@relo999]

Don't get me started. It can be done well, like digimon does for Tamer cards where they take more the promotional images of characters and put them on cards and they are rather consistent with that and (previously) only using it Tamer cards. But then you have the option cards in some newer sets full on using screenshots from 2 decade old budget anime, probably drawn by some overworked vietnamese kid, while every other card and most option cards are detailed custom art. The worst example would be BT15's wolf of friendship, using a screenshot from early 20's budget 3D (from a transformation sequence in the anime) all while no other card in the whole game even uses 3D. And what baffles me is that every option card in BT15 has 2 for every color, one using custom art showing the thing in it's name while the other is a screenshot from the anime which doesn't show anything related to the card name unless you know the anime. And it's not like they don't have the budget as at best only 5% of the card use screenshots, did they ran out of the art budget?

[@blastodermis]

Let's make a card game out of public domain properties: Hamlet facing Achilles...

[@Karanthaneos]

You mean Mitos y Leyendas

[@jonathantillian6528]

That's what Anachronism did.

[@HeavyMetalMouse]

As the video suggests, you ideally want a steady stream of new content to help keep your new sets rolling, so this idea would require a steady stream of things entering the public domain over time... Well, so much for that idea. :P

[@canismajor1186]

@@HeavyMetalMouse Living or dead political figures not allowed?

[@laytonjr6601]

@@HeavyMetalMouse If you're having Hamlet AND Achilles, that means every story can be featured in that tcg. You don't have to worry about running out of public domain stories, people have been writing them for at least 4000 years.

[@LassBisharp]

I would love to see a card game that commits all the seven deadly sins of TCG design.

[@koushuu]

It would have died before even committing 3 of them

[@LassBisharp]

@@koushuu I don't know about that one. Bakugan has lifedecking and more than just the standard deck and dice, and unmixable attributes, but it's not dead yet

[@Hyperactive_Gremlin]

Lass Bisharp bakugan has mixable attributes tho. They even have dual attribute cards

[@haosmagnaingram6992]

Lass Bisharp bakugan doesn’t have un mixable attributes (its attributes are more mixable than MTG’s attributes in a sense, as there isn’t the draw back of colored energy. (and really most of these sins aren’t even really sins exactly just things that are easy for games to do poorly) Bakugan does neglect reminder text on the three different strike effects though. Really the issue with bakugan has little to nothing to do with those “sins,” the game play itself is great. If the game dies what’s going to do it will be the issues with distribution. (whether caused by spinmaster losing credibility after redekai flopped, Spinmaster not having enough experience with the tcg market, or the severe worsening of this issue caused by the pandemic during a critical time for the game.)

[@Petrico94]

Purgafernio, a game about the battles between heaven, hell and purgatory. (working title and premise). We might not be able to get a movie deal but that can come later or just be even more botched if the movie doesn't even come out. 1. Sets rotate with every new set. Standard 3 per block but as soon as another comes out every 3-4 months the oldest set is no longer tournament legal. Maybe make it a point that exploitative combos are always around the corner, reprints are rare or of barebones mechanic cards, and most reprints that show up frequently or get printed under new names are underpowered 2. damage is done by lifedecking, discard from your deck as you take damage. Not sure if flip cards would be more broken or nothing to support getting milled would just be more frustrating and lead to snowballs. 3. You can only make a deck from one attribute; Paradise, Purgatory, or Inferno. Any neutral cards that fit between suck like mtg artifacts in a bad block for them. We also only plan to release one type of attribute per expansion and not always in a cycle. 4. The cards are pentagons, non-standard shape, but also transparent so you often see what's coming up next in your deck. 5^ 6. I guess we could incorporate a board game element or randomly have the players draw something to be judged by a 3rd party. Get really Scheherazade and Goblin Game with seasonal and even recurring mechanics. 7. Oh yeah, no reminder text so keep a rules book handy as a glossary for all this stuff.

[@jonathantillian6528]

Licensing Fees killed Iron Crown Enterprises. When the new Lord of the Rings movies were coming out, Tolkien's estates wanted almost triple the fee. When ICE couldn't pay, the license went to Decipher, makers of several Star Wars CCGs. Ironically, the same thing happened to Decipher with the original Star Wars TCG. When the license came up, Lucasfilm upped the price and the only company that could afford it was Wizards, who failed completely. Ironically, there was a demo for a Murder, She Wrote card game at 2002 Dragon Con. It played similarly to Mythos where investigators had to collect clues to solve a mystery. Unfortunately, you could also damage your opponent investigators and games devolved into murdering each other by falling down stairs or off ladders. It was something the game creators didn't think of because Jessica Fletcher would never do such a thing, but gamers would.

[@aqua4426]

you gotta admit thats one funny way to speed up the game XD. i can respect that

[@jonathantillian6528]

@@aqua4426 It was great seeing the faces of the people demoing the game. "What do you mean can you just kill your opponent. I mean, I guess, but the point is to figure out whodunit."

[@TiroDvD]

Hmm reminds me of Deadly Premonition board game. It's clue but you can bump people off, and screw with each other to make sure the killer doesn't actually get you.

[@jj-sc1kq]

As I recall, the announcement from Decipher actually stated that they offered Lucasfilm more than the license was worth. Lucasfilm decided to give the license to WotC regardless. They stated that they felt WotC could do a better job with the license.

[@jonathantillian6528]

@@jj-sc1kq Decipher made a bid that was higher than their original license fee, but Lucasfilm (owners of Star Wars at that time) had a heavy stock position in Hasbro, the new parent of WotC. So, Lucasfilm made a requested a ridiculous amount and Hasbro offered to pay. In turn Hasbro got at a heavy discount because they were buying "in house" as it were. Decipher kept the IP of the game mechanics for the original star wars game (yay agnostic game mechanics) and tried to tie it to an independent universe. Titled WARS TCG (Decipher has *never* made a CCG), the game was... good, but not star wars. Unfortunately, it folded after about a year. As a result, Decipher decided to double down on its new LotR property.

[@lennyface8195]

In Yugioh, the Kozmo archetype is a series of cards influenced by both Star Wars and The Wizard of Oz. Not only was it popular with the player base, but the cards themselves saw play for a lot longer than many expected.

[@baileydombroskie3046]

If u were to orginize all the archetypes and themes in yugioh based on the popularity they have. And have them sorted by poularity being least to most popular, and seperated them in half of the: half of them being the less popular and the other half being the most popular archetypes/themes. Kozmos wud probubly be on the most popular half of all tge archetypes/themes.

[@gmeaki02]

@@baileydombroskie3046 Impressively long-winded comment.

[@rhysjonsmusic]

Not only were the cards rather powerful for their time but they were also rather thematic. Having the lower level psychic type pilots tag into the higher level machine type ships and vice versa.

[@baileydombroskie3046]

@@gmeaki02 thats the best way i cud think of how to word it. Sorry if its confusing.

[@Nerobyrne]

I never thought combining Wizard of Oz and Star Wars could be this exiting, but it really was fun to play them.

[@moxopal675]

Funny thing is the best star wars card game is yugioh with the kozmo arctype

[@hoangminhle1964]

David Bare Star Wars *with girls*

[@vanitassmangareviews8869]

It’s also a Wizard of Oz archetype

[@treetheoak8313]

Looks it up "yup... That looks about right."

[@erickjr9]

Star Wars + Oz + Waifu = Dark Destroyer was OP as hell

[@scaledjames98]

Yugioh can also be considered the best card game for: Godzila/Gamera (kaijus), Spawn (Vendread), James Bond (SPYRAL), Cryptids (Danger!), the Divine Comedy (Burning Abyss), Knights of the Round Table (Noble Knights), and literal dust

[@Vulcanfaux]

Hey, the art style thing. Pokemon does varying art styles alot for its tcg. And the yarn style pokemon are nice.

[@Petrico94]

The thing is it's all new art and interesting to look at, if you don't like one artist or yarn just looks weird you get more within a set. Maybe it's a little harsh to complain about a set not following one style, rolling out an art book for the key artists like how MtG designs a world and gets everyone on board. I think the real problem is it's just the character and a generic background everytime and then no consistency with the characters, again all stock assets.

[@howaboutnow1895]

I love the art ones! The clay ones are nice too.

[@SaltedNeos]

While true, a lot of cards use the Ken Sugimori artwork too. Which is basically as stock art as stock art goes in Pokemon, but its used spareingly, and usually only on the first printing of a new trainer card, or very randomly for Pokemon (ex, Boundaries crossed Voltorb, various mythical Pokemon promos in the XY era.)

[@ShadowLynx777]

I mean mtg has some art variance also. The stain glass arts are beautiful

[@Dynoboot]

I think that fits the franchise

[@EmpoleMew]

Just an interesting tidbit: Star Wars actually has a set in Weiss Schwarz, but because of Destiny being made at around the same time, Bushiroad was denied distribution rights for it outside of Japan, making Star Wars one of the few sets in the game that are banned from North American JP language tournaments.

[@austinreed7343]

With the end of Destiny, could the Weiss Schwarz set come over?

[@blockyuniverseproductions]

@@austinreed7343 There's been a new game (Star Wars Ultimates), so probably not.

[@Wslasher]

4:57 Funny enough, Cardfight!! Vanguard uses screenshots or stock images for collaboration sets like Touken Ranbu & recently Bang Dream. Vanguard's Bang Dream booster SOLD OUT within the first 3 days in Japan & players want an expansion. This coming from a game that doesn't allow attribute mixing.

[@kingvire]

Holy hell wslasher didn’t expect to see you. Gotta love the short and simple news vids and am enjoying the monster hunter as someone who just got into it cause of your streams!

[@Wslasher]

@@kingvire I like that Kohdok doesn't pull his punches when criticizing Vanguard. Some I agree & some don't but I still enjoy seeing the perspective from someone who hates the game but with valid reasons.

[@kingvire]

Wslasher see that’s super cool of ya and wish many more had the same approach.

[@Nerobyrne]

proof that if your concept is good, you can get away with many things. Or these "sins" can actually work in your favour, like in Hearthstone where non-mixing types are used to balance the game. But the game has to be good at it's core, which many aren't and then they try to be fancy and it causes them to fail.

[@bryanmerel]

You are forgetting something. Those who bought Bang Dream and Touken Ranbu, didn't bought the cards because of the game. Those who bought those cards bought it for the IP they represent. Touken Ranbu and BangDream Cardfight!! Vanguard cards are nothing but a Promo collaboration and Fanservice products, not a card game of their own. Lets be honest, majority of the people who bought those cards care less for the game, and just wanted to buy the cards so that they can stare at their Precious Husbandos and Wifus on premium card form on a Binder.

[@jotacatalan]

1:16 YOOOOOO, that footage is from chilean tcg called Myths & Legends . The power creep was horrendous before it was shut down but came back like 10 years after with many tournaments and events. It's an interesting story in what you should and shouldn't do when you run a card game and how to make a comeback many years after its death

[@badillajoaquin]

also lifedecking

[@aurapris9591]

@@badillajoaquin though it has lifedecking, the game has always allowed you to play with the discard pile quite a lot with different mechanics so the main problem of not being able to play with your cards once they go there is avoided imo (talking about modern myl, I've only started playing when legado gótico came out)

[@goggledpringles]

@@reinaldoramirezrojas4289 no olvides los problemas internos al no pagarles a los ilustradores, estoy maqueteando un jueguito más equilibrado y que combina lo místico con la lucha libre, si le interesa busque historias del nod en ig

[@Stroggoii]

Mitos fue Espada Sagrada a Corsarios. Lo demás no existe.

[@professorhaystacks6606]

9:45: The Star Wars CCG only died because Decipher lost the license. It was still moderately popular when it was taken. The fans of it were amused/dismayed when the 3rd game failed. It maintained a small but dedicated fanbase for quite some time. It still has some fans but they are now too spread out. Young Jedi was also Decipher, and ended quickly for the same reason partly, but it also didn't do well.

[@MateusDrake]

Amazing, as usual! My only complaint/suggestion is that this should be a playlist on the channel.

[@jespoketheepic]

In the Pokemon TCG, when a card art is credited to Ken Sugimori, then it is not just A stock artwork but THE stock artwork; Sugimori draws the final character designs, that all other depictions are based on.

[@djpurser2743]

Been loving this series, came here as soon as I saw the notification!

[@raymondbrasuell2564]

5:46 "Blue Beetle Ted Kord"? That's Jaime Reyes from the Batman the brave and the bold cartoon!

[@BramLastname]

Technically the Pokémon TCG pays Licencing to the Pokémon Company, Who in turn pay the Pokémon TCG to make a card game for them.

[@tatsuyaorimura]

The Pokémon Trading Card game is Owned by the Pokémon Company, you're probably thinking of 'Play Pokémon!' Who are responsible for hosting official events

[@BramLastname]

@@tatsuyaorimura no, I meant it the way I said it.

[@Stroggoii]

@@BramLastname That's just like Warner Brothers making Cartoon Network pay royalties to DC comics for their superhero shows. A crafty way to make money paying to yourself, but also makes sure superhero shows never go past a couple seasons.

[@hqueso]

My brother and I use the exact same strategy at Christmas and birthdays.

[@PowerPandaMods]

I thought the Pokemon TCG was owned by Wizards of the Coast, who in turn are a subsidiary of Hasbro. The Pokemon Company owns all other aspects of Pokemon, but they are not willing to touch the TCG because Wizards clearly has a handle on it.

[@jeromefournier9667]

If Disney ever makes a card game they will (or should at least) just go full on Kingdom Hearts and use ALL their IPs in a single game. The only problem i can see is that if they do they will with 90% probability fall into the Good/evil split that kills Star Wars and LotR games. Personally I'd go for a softer divide with Fairy tales/Super heros/Sci-fy as "colors/grouping" with a resource penalty of some kind if you mix and match

[@haosmagnaingram6992]

Weiss schwarz Disney edition

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

Honestly using the characters and worlds of Disney Infinity could work

[@haosmagnaingram6992]

For the division of attributes they could just go based on the actual sub lands at Disney land, stuff like tomorrow land, fantasy land, frontier land, adventure land, toon town etc...

[@jeromefournier9667]

@@heroprime7599 If you make the divisions right then you can probably incorporate lesser or even too large IPs and characters with expansions...

[@Surg-265]

Four years later...

[@Taldoz]

"Is The Y-Wing is the greatest vehicle in the series?! Yes." Ah. I see you, too, are a man of culture

[@kid14346]

Why do people like the Y-Wing it is slow and has engines so far off the ship that they can just be blasted off. This post made by A-Wing gang

[@Taldoz]

@@kid14346 because it's easy to maintain, is reliable, and it looks cool.

[@timsmith618]

@@Taldoz Reliable? Literally the whole reason the hull panels are left off in the OT is because the rebel techs had to take them off so often, they decided to just make their lives easier and leave them off.

[@AngraMainyu24]

Bro that's a pretty weird way of writing Tie Interceptor.

[@wolfgangervin2582]

I'm more of a TIE Defender guy myself, but the Republic-era Y-Wing is an absolute beauty.

[@Tylendal242]

Warhammer Combat Cards (used to be an actual game, now is a mobile game) uses photographs of models for all the card art, and it's really one of the best parts of it. Especially some of the models that are obviously old and weird.

[@wewantthefunk73]

2024, Star Wars Unlimited has entered the chat

[@bradensorensen966]

Funny. Star Wars Unlimited has since come out in 2024 and is amazing despite leaning HARD into the original trilogy and Rogue One. It even uses the light/dark side of the force. But extremely well this time.

[@VaneHartless473]

"The Y-Wing is the Dodge Rambler of the Rebellion. You get to your destination, but why?"

[@Skasaha_]

Yu-gi-oh itself is actually licensed! Konami wasn't even the first company to license it, there's an earlier Bandai adaptation, and those older Bandai cards are collectors items. This is also why the early video games (also licensed by Konami) had a different ruleset - Konami hadn't developed the physical card game, the OCG (amusingly named Original Card Game), until a few years after they got license for video games and other merch.

[@sethgardner1536]

With the Star Wars card games you forgot about one that for some reason I still own, Star Wars Jedi Knight

[@napsterking]

Japan Weiss Schwarz has Star Wars

[@jetsetren8619]

in all fairness he did say it was only a few of the card games

[@sethgardner1536]

JetSetRen true but I do believe that is the only he was missing that comes to mind

[@juhis-dev]

Quickly reading the title, I was excited that there would be a Seven Deadly Sins TCG.

[@Bigdaddyj0nj0n]

Weiss shwarz was actually real fun. The mechanics were pretty unique as well as the clock system it used. Closer you got to clocking out, stronger the cards you were able to use. Star wars destiny was a really fun game. Solid mechanics and the dice added the right amount of luck needed for a game. Great video..!! Can't wait for the rest.!

[@peytonibarra8992]

Came back after the new Star Wars TCG came out... Let's hope this one goes the distance.

[@Vok250]

I don't think it will. Nobody really playing at my LGS. All Lorcana, Pokemon, and Magic.

[@peytonibarra8992]

Mine has a healthy player base, sorry yours doesn't

[@TheAntiiluminado7]

Loving the "Mitos y Leyendas" little appereance, it was the TCG that made me get into this since it was a really cheap and local TCG in the 2000's, the only lifedecking game i'll ever love, it's shitty though ashdgdgsusf

[@chapaxe]

jajajaj no fui el unico en notarlo

[@goggledpringles]

es terrible pulento el myl hermanoooo, además su nombre suena a mill, y ganas milleando a tu oponente jjsjs

[@VestedUTuber]

"Movies and TCGs are incompatible" ...unless the movie is about a TCG.

[@entothechesnautknight1762]

Fun bonus to using stock/old art at first is that when you finally start making your own, you can use that to advertise a set, like hearthstone did.

[@cptKicksville]

3:17 - "A Batman who laughs?? Don't be ridiculous, nobody will want that, and we certainly wouldn't go nuts driving that concept into the ground!!"

[@StarkeRealm]

The Decipher situation is a lot more sophisticated than it looks today. For those first four years, Star Wars was the second best selling CCG on the market, only losing out to Magic. Seriously. If it was 1996, you were playing a CCG that was NOT Magic, chances were very good that it was Decipher's Star Wars. It wasn't until the introduction of Pokemon that the 2nd slot was in serious jeopardy. The first problem for Decipher was that they had a massive embezzlement situation building. Moving into the late 90s, this started impacting the company's ability to produce on time, and the embezzler sabotaged development of their product tracking software specifically because it would have resulted in their detection. This means that, even though the game was wildly successful, the company started running into financial problems around 2000. There's letter from the CEO talking about it on the internet somewhere. It's insane. The second problem was Wizards of the Coast, and this is a little harder to track publicly. Wizards was fresh off acquiring TSR from a court case in the late 90s, and went on to start hunting down licenses. One of those was the Star Wars CCG. They already obtained the RPG license for Star Wars from West End Games, and had started publishing that under the rule system from the recently acquired D&D. We don't know how much they bid on the Star Wars CCG license, but it was significantly more than Decipher could afford to keep the license. It's pretty clear that Wizards expected their Star Wars CCG to outperform Decipher's, and there's actually some support for that position. Decipher's card game was exceedingly complex, with numerous fiddly card interactions. The original Star Wars and Star Trek CCGs from Decipher really tried to simulate their worlds, rather than be a coherent game first, and that meant it was an extremely daunting game to get into. This is why Decipher had two additional Star Wars CCGs in publication, Young Jedi and Jedi Knight. Both were designed to be easier entry points, and Young Jedi was specifically marketed at younger kids who were just getting started in CCGs. So, one major threat for licensed CCGs is, losing the license. Wizards overproduced the hell out of the first three sets of the TCG. LGSs appeared to pick up the first two assuming that nothing had changed. Endpoint sales were not forgiving. I say this as someone who had to eat unsold cases of the Wizards TCG after launch. Their third expansion continued on those numbers, but LGS purchases were down, and the A New Hope expansion ended up getting dumped in mass market stores. After that the print runs dropped seriously. It looks like the game was always successful, but it never rivaled Pokemon/Magic numbers and so Wizards canned it rather than renewing the contract. Decipher tried to keep going by releasing a "serial numbers filed off," version of the game called, "Wars." It's good(ish), but really illustrates that the only thing keeping their game going was the license, and that folded after a single release. Interesting, Decipher's Star Trek CCG was another one that really illustrated the risks of licenses. Originally, the production plan was for the first year to include Premiere, Alternate Universe, Q Continuum, with Holodeck Adventures sneaking in somewhere around Holiday 1995 or Q1 1996. Premiere released in December of 1994, with an unlimited version hitting in early 1995. However, Alternate Universe dropped in December 1995, Q Continuum came out in mid-'96, and Holodeck Adventures was shelved for years. In 1997, they got access to the rest of the Star Trek license, so, plans changed dramatically. However, it was taking a year between sets initially because Paramount was demanding full approval for each individual card. While Decipher was able to, eventually, break away from the, "two people playing solitaire," reputation that the game started with, the difficulty adding new content crippled the game out of the gate.

[@EnfiladedProductions]

You forgot the part where Wizards of the Coast was bought by Hasbro in 1999. The Star Wars license went to Wizards largely to keep all of Star Wars products under the Hasbro brands. Decipher had plans to keep the game going well into the future (you can find a lot of info online about future cards) even without an expectation for future films. Decipher even ported the rules of SWCCG to a game just called Wars which pretty good, but died under the embezzlement scandal. A real tragedy.

[@StarkeRealm]

@@EnfiladedProductions Yeah, I mentioned Wars. To be fair, that one was always going to be a bit of a non-start. While Star Wars was novel and fit with the setting, it was a very complex game. While the embezzlement scandal doomed the company, and probably impeded Wars getting up and going, that's one that was on borrowed time from the word, "go." It never got the sales Star Wars had, simply because a lot of people were buying Star Wars to play Star Wars, not because they liked the rules. You could see that in the late 2000s, by the amount of sealed Wars product still on the market. It's a shame, because it is a good game, but it died on the shelves.

[@Anon-yd8yj]

Ironically wars had a better, more refined version of star wars ccgs gameplay and mechanics.

[@StarkeRealm]

​@@Anon-yd8yj From what I've been told, a lot of Wars' mechanics were originally intended for a, "Second Edition," of Star Wars. That was planned to release along side either Attack of the Clones or Revenge of the Sith. Though, by that point, WotC had snagged the license.

[@Anon-yd8yj]

@@StarkeRealm I've played both and wars has lot more playable cards than star wars, where 80 percent of the cards are unplayable junk. And I hated the enhanced premiere characters with built in weapons.

[@brunograndi8920]

I love this series of videos, great job reviewing old dead games. Nowadays I'm looking for Shadowrun TCG content, but can't find much of it. Have you ever seen this game before? The art is amazing and the game looks fun for multiplayer. Greetings from Brazil!

[@Dhuman571]

I've played various trading card games my entire life, and have been a huge fan of the genre since starting, and man this series is awesome to watch as someone who has both played these things since the boom in the 90s/2000s and dabbled in game design. Comfy watching.

[@Trockenmatt]

About your last point, WotC did that with a recent MTG Set, Ikoria. They designed this monster mutation mechanic and a world around that, and then they have alternate art and names for a couple cards that are Godzilla-themed.

[@SonofSethoitae]

Meanwhile, the Decipher Star Wars CCG is still going, almost 3 decades later.

[@jdb2002]

Really? I thought that ended after the Episode I set.

[@SonofSethoitae]

@@jdb2002 A fan group officially took it over from Decipher and continues to release cards (albeit digitally) to this day

[@PowerPandaMods]

Yep, the original Decipher Star Wars CCG was #2 behind Magic back when it was released. The "Young Jedi" game came out at the height of its popularity, and confusion between the two caused both games to tank. So maybe a deadly sin would be "competing with yourself". The fans have kept the original CCG alive though.

[@SonofSethoitae]

@@PowerPandaMods More importantly, Lucasfilm didn't renew their license and they couldn't legally make it any more.

[@puttputt524]

I want an entire set licensed by Star Wars. Different planets can provide different element of the force. Cards can just be re skinned existing magic cards.

[@pierrelindgren5727]

[Proceeds to make a Fast & Furious TCG] First released in 2001, still continues to make movies. The ride will never end.

[@Vok250]

I wonder if Lorcana will last more than 2 years.

[@rivzxxx3490]

It’s already dying out

[@alfonshasel1995]

Now it did

[@Vok250]

A Saw TCG woul actually be pretty dope.

[@TheAlmightyGameGenie]

I may have missed a discussion on the topic in another video (fairly new to the channel) but what are your thoughts on LCGs vs TCGs or CCGs? Do you have a preference of one over the other, do you think there are massive benefits to sticking with randomized packs over set ones, etc? And, related to that question, with the recent news of the Ashes card game returning via a subscription method, what ways do you think old dead card games could, in theory, return, especially since many dead games see fan content continuing the efforts (Netrunner, Doomtown, etc)?

[@radix4400]

Netrunner can't return. At least not without Wizards on board. The Nisei project can get away with it because they aren't selling, but actually having money on the line would get it shut down instantly. But a subscription model definitely helps keep a game at least alive from a sales perspective and makes it easier to see how healthy the game is, which can install confidence.

[@PsychoRider666]

as a chilean, i got hyped seen the "mitos y leyendas" footage

[@evra91]

You should talk more about young jedi. I was so hyped for that game. I still have a lot of cards that I bought back then. And even for a 12 year old I quickly realized that they couldn't add more material with just one movie.

[@canoodie]

So excited I get to see the new episode before work.

[@spittertron4920]

The Decipher game is still being maintained by a "Player's Committee", which started when the license was pulled from Decipher and given to WotC.

[@jj-sc1kq]

When we look at what killed the original Star Wars CCG by Decipher the licensing issues are at the heart of it. When the license came up for bid again, Decipher offered Lucasfilm more money than the license was worth in order to keep it. Executives at Lucasfilm felt that Wizards of the Coast would be able to create and support a better TCG. (Which promptly died.) No attempt at creating a Star Wars game has lasted as long. (I miss training Jawas on Dagobah to be jedi.) Last I checked, you can still find pockets of people that still play it.

[@jj-sc1kq]

In all truth, this could be another Sin of TCG games. Alienating your fan base. When Lucasfilm decided to take Star Wars from Decipher, it was very much like the Set Rotation sin. The entire game and everyone's collections were made illegal for tournament play and no new cards would be sold. Then the entire player base for the game was told that they needed to buy new cards. That is a good way to convince a large section of the player base to hold on to their cash and maybe never play a TCG again.

[@StannisBaratheonOTK]

Yep, the SWCCG Player's Committee still handles the game and has a pretty solid community 20 years after the game went out of print. They even make new "virtual" cards and have a program to play for free online, which is great since with so many people staying home this year prices for the cards have skyrocketed. That Hasbro, Lucasfilm's biggest license holder owns Wizards caused them to do Decipher dirty. Was really too bad. The game was so enjoyable.

[@SuperGamefreak18]

The last bit reminds me about the fact that there's a yugioh deck heavily inspired by star wars I didn't know about til recently

[@BeybladeBlaster]

Been waiting for this video, such a good series

[@alfonshasel1995]

1:47 nice choice of example here, will be interesting how long lorcana lasts. At least its not based on a movie but lots of movies and other branching media.

[@ShadowLynx777]

As a game designer I love this series so much!

[@Gladius714]

I've been playing Star Wars Destiny with my brother and it's pretty fun. It's just a bit confusing to learn

[@josevelajr]

You think so? I found it to be very easy to get into and I managed to get some people that otherwise would not have gotten into a TCG to play. I think the back and forth actions are pretty straightforward. What did you you find confusing?

[@Gladius714]

@@josevelajr I think it was confusing because I play Magic and Yugioh and thought it would be similar enough but Destiny has some unique gameplay that I found jarring at first. But once I understood it I found it fun.

[@josevelajr]

@@Gladius714 oh yeah, It's difficult to get out of the headspace of the big 3 for a lot of people. When I teach people Keyforge, they have such a hard time getting around a lot of the things that Keyforge solves about other games i.e. the lack of resource/Mana costs. What's interesting is the stuff like Keyforge or Destiny is more streamlined and refined, but the big 3 are so engrained its hard to break away from their way of doing things.

[@Viviantoga]

4:57 > never knew there was a Final Fantasy-based card game > never heard of Raw Deal > miffed that My Little Pony TCG was snubbed

[@rrteppo]

Right now Star wars has 3 different miniatures games in print. There is Armada where you use miniatures of large ships to reenact the scenes from the movies where they have giant space battles. There is X-Wing where you fly a single squad of a few ships and have a really simple game about positioning. Then you have Legion where you have the on the ground battle in a War Hammer 40K style miniature game. Xwing even has 2 editions with 3 core sets. X wing is the most popular with Fans, with Legion picking up steam as number 2 since it leans harder into the miniature crowd.

[@McChookter]

Great series, hope to see Kodok talk about the epic Austin powers tcg. The last video made me binge watch all of Kodok's vids over the last two weeks

[@motxmod]

CR, formerly of TGWTG, did a good job reviewing it a few years ago. kzbin.info/www/bejne/g6bEh3urZcmMfpo

[@lordspider3958]

The bloodborne card game is a great example of a one and done licensed card game. It's actually fun, and they didn't try to make expansions.

[@PERIX_QR]

I feel like you could make a ccg based on an ongoing movie franchise. (edit: yeah, that's what I'm saying.)

[@spiral1400]

The Star Wars games have been given a raw deal by the companies that created them. Decipher Inc. went into bankruptcy via some shady family issues, and FFG can't seem to keep a game with an IP running to save their lives without rebooting it every few years.

[@ScionStorm1]

Yu-Gi-Oh managed to adapt Star Wars without licencing by merging Star Wars references with Wizard of Oz and the archetype became pretty popular for a while. Not quite as strong as the Dante's Inferno archetype or as broken as some of the lovercraftian gods, but still pretty good.

[@Vortigern-oberon95]

Just as a fun fact: The footage in the 1:13 minute is about Mitos y Leyendas (in englis: Myths and Legends) the only tcg made in my country (Chile) that survived to the years. I played when I was like 8 or 9 years old. It was funny watch something from my country in an english talking video hahaha

[@BlUsKrEEm]

Alien Predator is one of the greatest card games of it's time. It's an innovative asymmetrical game play and game board building mechanic were leagues ahead of it's time. Sadly the lack of support and the small pool size kind of killed the game in it's crib.

[@Darkogazza]

I'm really digging this series and Rouge's Theme from SA2 made it great :D

[@Kurayamiblack]

I knew I recognized that from a Sonic game! I was looking for a comment like this :)

[@WarriorZ676]

mitos y legendas!! gosh, that game was the best. Specially since it costed like a third of what YGO/Pokemon/Magic cost. That and they always came out with special editions in ludicrous packaging, like when they made a wooden pyramid that could hold cards

[@atlys258]

The "Using Screenshots" had me swooning nostalgic over the original DBZ CCG from the early-mid 2000's, not only did the screenshots totally work for the game by providing great visuals for us to see what our moves actually looked like, but the game was actually pretty fucking good. Each Color and Race had distinct and unique mechanics. I played a Red aggro Cell w/ Cell or Cell Games Red mastery that STOMPED. Gosh I miss that game so much..

[@NestorVass]

I found about the star wars CCG recently, I'm still learning it but it seems very in-depth with a lot of sets and actual tournaments

[@pablomadrid6962]

As a Chilean player, seeing Mitos y Leyendas here was quite nice, even if I don't actually play. Loving the series, can't wait for the next episode.

[@taylorwood7869]

To be fair the star wars miniature games that use cards have had some staying power

[@HaniTheLegend]

Such an underrated channel. This is great, man!

[@kingvire]

I assume you’ll address the games that did it well in the after video. But I’d love to see more on your thoughts and opinions on Weiss Schwarz. I’ve been playing it on and off for years and I think that’s what’s so great just find the set you like build and play and then come back when another set you like comes out. No need to follow every set release.

[@ussgordoncaptain]

I played that game, then someone played a highschool dxd card against me and the store owner came over and said that we can't play that game in the shop anymore because hentai games are banned. It's sad that a truely excellent game is ruined by puritans who can't accept clevedge

[@kingvire]

Edmund Nelson same thing at my store since they have (well hard considering things now) a large child group they banned certain sets and cards, though they gave you the option to censor cards with sheets of paper or marker on the sleeve if we truly want to play cards. The other two card shops don’t care.

[@IncredibleMD]

5:46: ... That Blue Beetle card says Ted Kord, but depicts Jaime Reyes. Wow. Much effort.

[@Rastr-n]

11:40 It's definitely interesting watching this video now that Star Wars Unlimited was well received and looks to be the Star Wars game that could finally break the curse

[@smonkk8556]

really love that this one basically perfectly predicted marvel snap's art style

[@padorupadoru4477]

You could also use timeless IPs like HP Lovecraft stuff, Romance of the 3 Kingdoms, WW2 etcetc IPs that are basically public use and free

[@ScionStorm1]

Yu-Gi-Oh has done that already. Entity and Tindangle are based on Lovecraft lore, Ancient Warriors are Romance of the Three Kingdoms and I think the Xyz trains in the train deck are based German WW2 combat trains.

[@kamelwadie6581]

When I saw the notification for this video i got really excited because i really love this series and all his videos

[@VestedUTuber]

"Is the Y-Wing the greatest vehicle in the series? Yes, the answer is yes" While I commend your choice of one of the less beloved fighters as your favorite, I must respectfully disagree. The Y-Wing is a decent choice, it's a good all-rounder for a single-seat or two-seat craft. But best? Oh no, that title belongs to the Nubian J-Type Star Skiff. Class 0.5 Hyperdrive _stock,_ the Millennium Falcon needed extensive mods to manage that. Luxurious interior. Exceptional top speed and maneuverability for a ship of its size class. A bit lacking in the weapons department (though unlike other Nubians and due to the era it was produced in it does actually come stock with a single defensive turret), but it doesn't need weapons when it can outrun literally anything else out there.

[@FrozenG4mes]

"All games featured are the property of their owners" OOOOH REALLY? XD

[@lucasdecarvalholorena5193]

I've designed an Avatar The Las Airbender CCG out of inspiration last year. I kept working on it as a hobby and I even started dreaming about contacting Viacom and talking about licensing before I got in touch with precessional game designers who taught me about licensing fees and other complications. As I love what I've created I insisted on it. I now have it ready (with almost 300 cards) on Tabletop Simulator (check "Contos de Avatar" at the workshop), but no intention to get it published. It's all in Portuguese for now, but I'll definitely translate it someday to share it with the fanbase worldwide. I'm glad I could use the mechanics (and all the learning) to develop a new CCG, with a lore developed by my gf and I. I hope I can finish it soon and put it to test 😉 The lore feels much like Avatar meets Harry Potter TriWizard Cup in a pre-industrial University.

[@Drecon84]

This is an interesting video after the Walking Dead thing Magic did.

[@GreatDinn]

Can't believe you got Otto Mann to collab with your video. Righteous.

[@dylanahern7039]

0:54 Wait, isn’t that the cast of Mystery Science Theater 3000 at the bottom of the screen? It is! Ah, I see you are a man of culture as well.

[@MrDariox555]

Was surprised to see Mitos y Leyendas here. Didn't think anyone would know it outside of Chile

[@omechron]

It's funny... MetaX's clashing art style looks terrible, but I love the way Yu-Gi-Oh has basically no artistic cohesion, because it has it within the archetypes... so using ultra detailed dragons or low detail cute creatures feels more like player expression than lazy design.

[@ScionStorm1]

Summon Outer Entity Nyarla or Melffy Momma?

[@DioStandProud]

The Nelo Angelo theme in the intro just gets you MOTIVATED

[@remyscreepycorner5135]

Yaaaaaas I'm so happy this is finally out!! This is my favorite series. I snorted so hard at the Star Wars bit. But holy crap I had no idea how many games before Destiny existed.

[@EduardoWeidmanBarijan]

I am curious how Lycee and Weiss Scharwatz do work with all the source material. They say you can play matches with all of the cards right? How they did come up with game mechanics that work across every media like anime?

[@fernandobanda5734]

2 years late but basically the mechanics are extremely generic (comparing numbers and card manipulation) and the vast majority of cards aren't flavorful in the slightest. The IP still sells even if it doesn't feel much like you're playing a specific property.

[@DalamusUlom]

On the topic of comic book based cards being printed in the style of comic book covers, I am willing to bet money that the Magic the Gathering Universes Beyond crossover sets with Marvel will have that as an alternate art treatment.

[@StarkeRealm]

Didn't even think about it until now, but there were, at least, two Comic Book Superhero CCGs that allowed Marvel/DC crossovers. Vs is the one people are most likely to remember now. That hit in the mid-2000s, and alternated between DC and Marvel releases, though it did get a Hellboy boxed set at one point. I'm not sure which other spin off sets may exist. Vs. probably has one of the harshest card rotation systems I've ever seen. Only the most recent sets were legal in Modern format. (Though, it's technically possible the Hellboy cards were permanently tournament legal, as no other Dark Horse sets were released, I'm unsure.) However, it wasn't the first game to allow crossovers. Overpower started out as a Marvel Superhero CCG in the mid '90s. Eventually it would expand to include DC characters, and there was even an Image comics expansion with characters like Spawn and Witchblade. There were problems. The Marvel, DC, and Image cards all had distinct card backs. So you couldn't mix cards between different licenses without using opaque card protectors, which were still slightly unusual at the time. Additionally, DC characters were introduced along side the addition of a new character attribute (bringing the total from 3 to 4), this meant that the characters were not, initially, cross-compatible, however the next Marvel set reprinted existing characters with the new attribute. Rights for Overpower started with Fleer/Skybox, who'd gotten into the CCG market with two licensed games (Overpower and a Star Trek CCG based on the original series and, supposedly the animated series from the 70s, though as far as I know, no cards were printed drawing from that source), but final two sets for Overpower were published by Marvel themselves. Ironically, this included the Image expansion.

[@talljoke]

Every time I see "6) Require more than the deck and some dice", I know Dungeon Dice Monsters will eventually be raked over the coals in a future video.

[@ValumNathrezim]

10:48 That SA2 music hit hard

[@tatsuyaorimura]

Weiss Schwarz actually has a Star Wars set, it just hasn't released outside of Japan

[@Kayrol1990]

But WS is still it's own card game and just using the IP as an inspiration (introducing Force mechanic and such) to add a little bit more diversity into the gameplay experience. Although the set isn't released outside of Japan, it doesn't stop people from getting it anyway. Good thing they noticed it and make the set illegal to play in an official tournament. aaaaaaand the set is still a dead set after it get released, who knows if Bushiroad will ever going to do more set boosters for the series.

[@tatsuyaorimura]

@@Kayrol1990 Weiss is a pure Collab game, pretty sure you're talking about Vanguard

[@Kayrol1990]

@@tatsuyaorimura nah i am talking about WS, as no other set in the card game uses Force as profound as Star Wars set does but yeah, WS is a collab game and you really wanted your favorite series (games anime or whatever) to get featured in the card game

[@Kayrol1990]

@@tatsuyaorimura If you're talking about vanguard's imaginary gift/force card, yeah i totally forgot about that since it's still new to me

[@tatsuyaorimura]

@@Kayrol1990 yeah that's what I thought you were talking about lol

[@jonothanthrace1530]

Nice use of the Count Basie music from Blazing Saddles :D

[@rivzxxx3490]

My cat is called count Basie 😊

[@Phox-in-a-Box]

I'm also a huge fan of the Y-Wing. It's one of the few fighters that have ion cannons as standard weapons, and they're tough as nails.

[@FrancoDuerme]

Forgot to mention the dice for sw destiny! My collection is so huge with dice. The randomness hurt its competitive players. And the production costs must've been horrendous!

[@raphaeld9270]

Nice video. :D 12:27 An explanation might be the ransomware attack FFG suffered a bit before that, you can learn more about it on that podcast: Call of Discovery - A Keyforge podcast: 96. The Algorithm Situation and Embracer Group In short, they lost a lot of in-progress projects.

[@jmlchaosdragon]

I know he talk about ufs, but he could have use it has an example for the having the licensing company input when you want to release the set, Jasco is infamous about late set and always needing to swap release because company went to make change on release. I heard one of the set got push because the company didn't like 1 card. Their main solution is to produce 3-4 set in advance and when one company give their go to one of those set they release it. Making it impossible to know what the next set will be in advance, we often learn a month or two before it's release.

[@HeroSphereTCG]

Been enjoying the series. Keep up the good work my man

[@endtimestcg5146]

5:50 VS suffered from the Same. I wonder how they could have put so lack luster Artwork on some of the DC and MARVEL Cards!

[@catoticneutral]

oh damn this is the earliest i've been to any video

[@deckpicksmtg9509]

Finally this series is awsome

[@lycanbroadcastingnetwork]

I am pretty sure they didn't have any baby Yoda merch to avoid spoilers for the show. Which I'm grateful for even though I was unable to get a baby yoda when I wanted it... when I wanted it being as soon as I saw that lil bugger on the screen