Forgiveness and Redemption Stories Need Overhauls (Glass of Water)

KAIRI!
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[@LilianOrchard]

For those asking: Yes, the voice at 1:06 is my real speaking voice.

[@LilianOrchard]

Yup

[@LilianOrchard]

One of the biggest appeals of my videos is the very blunt and attention-grabbing tone I use, which is lost if I'm using a softer, more feminine voice.

[@richardsmith2719]

Huh. I guess the softer voice doesn't really deliver the acid you're videos normally contain. Not that this kind of video is bad; it's like a glass of orange juice in the morning. It takes a second to wake up and enjoy it, but you like it once you're active and ready for it. Keep up the good work. 👍

[@sweetpea2604]

I honestly like BOTH of your voices. your regular voice is cute, and the voice you use in your videos especially in your ‘Glass of water’ series, really makes us pay attention. 👍🏻

[@DexDex000]

You know ill be honest, I don’t hate Steven universe that much but GOD does the theme of “Forgive everyone no matter how horrible and unforgivable they are!! (:” grind on my nerves so badly. Not everyone can be forgiven! Not everyone deserves to! I understand that Sugar is trying to push what she considers a good message to kids but I disagree, I think kids should be taught that not everyone is really just a kind, good hearted person deep down, and that you shouldn’t have to act like they are. The diamond literally killed how many gems, humans in the war, and probably many many other alien species and we’re just okay with that because they decided to talk about their feelings. *sigh.*

[@dontdrinkacetone6058]

I personally think it's NOT a coincidence that White Diamond calls Pink Diamond "Starlight". 😑

[@preduttt]

Honest comment. Lily you have opened my eyes to so much bullshit that lazy writers get away with and you made me understand just how awful it all was. Watching you has made me understand the fiction I consume better and indirectly you have made me a better writer as well. No matter what anyone says, I am thankful for the videos you make. Thank you Lily.

[@theo-tabbyizcatstudios]

The diamonds "redemption" was considered brilliant by so many people and it's so stupid what flip.

[@oneofnone7947]

Thank you I thought I was crazy

[@dragonempress8367]

As a Steven universe fan, I think the diamond redemption arc is the worst arc. Good visuals and pretty colors ain't covering that up.

[@robinexcalibur9488]

This is touched upon in the video, but the other thing that bothers me personally about redemption arcs is they usually consist of the villain just being sad, sharing their sad backstory and showing some regret, and then being forgiven by someone (usually the main character). And then it's over. That's the whole arc, they're good again. Especially once we start getting close to that "line of no return", there has to be more than just forgiveness. The character has to work to change and right their wrongs. The moment of forgiveness is just the beginning of a much longer, and much more interesting arc. Alternatively, as mentioned by the video, there's the "villain realizes on their own that they're being terrible and starts trying to correct themselves, and then later is forgiven".

[@cookiecutter6735]

Yes but White Diamond was *_I n S e C u R e ! ! !_*

[@jenniferolinger3925]

"Trying to go out and hug a nazi is not compassion. Its suicide". If only the world would notice how right you are lily. Keep teaching the good word, k?

[@likesgames123]

Honestly, when I watched that episode. I was just dumbfounded. White Diamond, THE WHITE DIAMOND. Built up for so long, given this intimidating introduction, so supposedly powerful. AND CHANGES HER MIND DUE TO A COMEBACK. Seriously people? Not to mention there is a movie in the works, the promo hinting at another villain, since the diamonds have been defanged, declawed and castrated. Imagine if they went with the plot line of only blue diamond siding with them. It would have been much better and given birth to a potential civil war plot line on homeworld. But nope. White diamond just wanted everyone perfect(If that was the case, why didn't she blast everyone with that light shit and made everyone conform to her). Just waiting for this train wreck to hit the bottom of the cliff with the movie.

[@youdom5]

This is why I made my own late night vlog on why redemption arcs now scare me, because many writers don’t know how they properly work and think it will just work if it is in their own media.

[@Maphisto86]

How do people think Lily is a sociopath? At worst, she may be considered "harsh" in her critique but frankly, I think she is being charitable with this stuff.

[@sallywinston5305]

I'm not familiar with My Little Pony show (I've known about since almost forever but never got into it) but if Starlight Glimmer did that cause a friend moved away, can you imagine what she would do if someone broke up with her? Or rejected her sign of friendship? Or did ANYTHING that she didn't like? I think that's another reason WHY redemption arcs don't work when characters do such horrible acts with such thin reasons. It's crazy how they do such INSANE ACTIONS over stuff that other people have gone through or for such simple reasons that it makes you wonder what else they could do given other things and then when you think about that, it makes them hard to trust them at all because they basically OVER REACT in a way that's damaging to EVERYONE AROUND THEM for ANOTHER simple reason. It's like this reddit story I read online that I was appalled at. Long story short, sister was a recovering drug addict that basically set her own sister up to make it look like she cheated (there were drugs and a lying friend involved) so her fiance broke up with her and her family kicked her out. YEARS past and ex-fiance hunts her down to tell her that her evil sister confessed to her actions and asked for forgiveness. Mind you, the evil sister did this after experiencing love and marrying someone to confess to the ex-fiance and she realized her folly cause of this. Now, my first thought was, which wasn't revenge not so much as THEY DESERVE TO KNOW A PSYCHO IS AMONG THEM, is that the sister IMMEDIATELY calls the family and informs them of the sister's deeds cause, based off what the evil sister said, it seems like she was jealous of her sister and THAT'S WHY SHE DID SUCH A HORRIBLE THING. My next thought was, if she can do this to her literal family member cause she was jealous, can you imagine what she would do if she and her husband don't work out? What if he decides to divorce her cause he fell out of love? WILL SHE FRAME HIM TOO??? Such a person doesn't deserve forgiveness. It doesn't matter if they had a drug problem and it's not about the whole "it's best to forgive and forget cause being bitter is bad" and such nonsense. People who do irredeemable actions are dangerous and I would think that would apply to characters too, even if they are fictional.

[@LenOnTheDoor0000]

I find it both hilarious and disgusting that people warp your words or refuse to listen to them either through idiocy or petty spite. This example in particular has me both laughing on the floor and screaming in rage internally.

[@RobertGriffith9]

Saying the diamonds deserve redemption because they were just sad people is like saying Hitler was a good guy because he liked dogs. Mystifying

[@KidIsildur]

Y'all can take this 'redemption' up with a certain skeleton I know. Be careful, he's been known to give the genocidal a bad time.

[@atudor98]

She's right and she should say it.

[@ThatGuySleepyMiles]

MOTHER UPLOADED :D I'VE BEEN BEING YOUR VIDEOS FOR DAYS. I WATCHED EVERY GLASS OF WATER. AND NOW THERES A NEW ONEEEEE

[@Joseph-ph8sd]

The world needs more brutally honest people like you in it. Thank you.

[@blackkatt9552]

This video is one of many that's helping to improve my life and my writing. I enjoy listening to your Glasses of Water. I personally thank you. 💯 Also that cover art tho.. 😆

[@mikailaturkleson7472]

You're welcome. I'm proud of that piece ^^

[@hickorydaisy4117]

I feel like the Diamond redemption worked for BLUE... but not for Yellow or White. Especially not White. White is terrible. And that was ORIGINALLY going to be the last episode, but the show is going to continue. Given that information, I feel it is going to get worse. Much worse.

[@marilaynxoxo66]

Honestly its worst when this redemption arc is given to abusers without a realistic or believable reason for these toxic people to have changed. They can pull the abuser was a victim card, but then they never explore what it was that caused the abuser to change. If Catra actually started to change when exposed to one of the few people in her life that wanted to be her friend and support her (Scorpio), if scorpio was used as more of a character for Catra to realise her own emotional failings and ultimately that she had to change how she interacted, communicated with the people in her life. There was small elements of this where she tried to talk to her childhood friends, but then she just reverted back to abuser. Like life-changing realisations are not that shortlived. If this was a turning point, that was given its entire section to explore. If she actually changed and maintained the change more or less. As a bare minimum, to apologise to everyone she's hurt, Scorpio and Adora, to have a deep chat with them about everything after realising it. Basically hardcore therapy, which is always lacking in so many of these redemption stories.

[@something_wrong5014]

I don't know how many times you will have to say these things before people start understanding, but I'll listen to you every time.

[@tvftw1]

Okay, managed to pause the video 2 seconds in, and I'mma come back to this at a later date

[@swifttoplay3047]

This episode just REASSURES me how hilarious a concept can be given with full sarcasm and comedy while still hitting home IS possible, and helps solidifies why it’s effective. I love you lily

[@fantasticfantasy3960]

The hate against you being the only smart person (that I know of) in the fandom will never stop, will it?

[@_Sage967_]

I think your right about forgiveness. forgive and forget is for small scale interpersonal issues but even with things like war we shouldnt blanketly blame others that are associated with the agressors. i know your probably already aware of that but from the way you said it people will take it as the whole 'sins of the father' thing. someone's family could have hurt alot of people but you cant just blame them and to tie it back to steven universe like you said in one of your previous videos they just need to not redeem white. they already setup the cast system and resently showed the divide in authority based on seniority so they could have just let white treat the other two big rock bitches like they treated pinky and then die/face a court of law and we'd be golden...... well more tin painted gold but at least we wouldn't be fools

[@everythingalldwight4939]

Love the new art

[@alexanderfinegan1506]

I helped a loved one escape an incredibly abusive man. His favorite character in SU was Lapiz. Coincidence?

[@brettcomardelle8506]

Liked for the title alone

[@testingtesting7269]

Honest comment. Ever since I watched your video on why Steven Universe is bad and you mentioned the fact that all the villains getting redeemed are vile when there are other perfectly good options that are treated as irredeemable I started looking more closely at that question and I think a have some kind of answer. I think this problem stems from what I like to call the “villain creep effect”. Writers want their new villain to be more of a challenge to face than the last so they keep upping the stakes, making them worse. This can have many problems alone like power creep but when this approach seeps into a show like Steven Universe or MLP where all the villains are defeated by joining the heroes or getting shoved in the corner and forgotten, the characters being given several chances keep getting worse. Bad writers raise the threat of their villains to the point where eventually they will write themselves into a corner, eventually realizing it or not. This reaches it’s worst point when nearing the end of long running shows, there has been so many villains at this point in the story where anything less than dictator or a threat to time and space are not worth a finally. And then there are just times where writers get attached to a villain and refuse to get rid of them and just keep them around. But since they want the villain to get close to the heroes they get redeemed and start clogging up screen time for the other characters, but that is just something that is bad writing in itself. I don’t know if when you asked that question that you were genuinely asking a question or if it was rhetorical but these are some of my thoughts on the matter. Wish you well, Lily.

[@GuildmasterWigglytuff]

I have to wonder how much of this comes from spectacle creep. I'd certainly like to think that these writers don't sit down and think "today's moral is gonna be that you should always forgive people who do monstrously heinous things and show no signs of remorse :)))" (That being said, if asked whether they agree with that statement I wouldn't be surprised to hear yes) but instead think that those monstrously heinous things are needed to be exciting and memorable. Now that's hardly good writing either and certainly doesn't excuse this moral, but at least it doesn't imply that the writers are dangerously naïve.

[@SherbertLand]

one of my favorite shows redeems one of the main villains. this villain was constantly trying to kill the main character and was actively toying with him when he did that, and going absolutely bat-shit crazy when his soul was destroyed. he dies and is eventually brought back to life and works with the big bad of the series on her big evil plan. now, why do i love this villains redemption? theres a few reasons. first off, this character was actually once a hero and was a huge part in keeping refugees safe during a huge war. the only reason he is only evil because the big bad villain stole his soul and enslaved him into killing a line of heros, and he just got so used to it that it started to become who he was. but during the final episode, (and at this point he reclaimed his soul btw) the main character reminds him of who he was before his soul was stolen, and asks "whats your excuse now that you have your soul back?" then hes put aside until the end of the climactic fight where he sacrifices his life to help defeat the big bad. the thing is, the main characters dont forgive him. theyre shocked when he gets killed, sure, but he did so much crap to each of the main characters that they rightfully dont even care about his death afterwards. but he still gets what i would consider a good redemption because he was more of a victim than a villain, and got enough characterization to support this sudden turnaround at the end of the series i just was thinking of that while watching this video and wanted to share. ty Lily, youre lovely

[@quixoticat7658]

Sees the title MMMM this gonna be good

[@babyfacestudios0]

7:43 What did robobuddies do?

[@LilianOrchard]

She had a prolonged public meltdown about Steven Universe is Garbage and Here's Why which resulted in her burning herself out and giving up KZbin.

[@Captain_Wet_Beard]

Dont mistake malice for bad writing, only someone who is particularly nasty inside would want to push the narrative that genocidal dictators, rapists, and abusers should be forgiven. And trying to reach out and hug a Nazi is only suicide of you arent secretly a Nazi yourself.

[@LilianOrchard]

The video was also supposed to cover redemption arcs in stories as a concept and not just SU. So a tangent about how Rebecca Sugar is inching toward being the Stella Kubler of the modern era would belong in a different video.

[@leaf1469]

Damn, not the KH3 review. Gonna need to wait later for that one, if you want to do it.

[@AlexxitheVoidboi]

Even as someone who love SU and regards it as my one and only "comfort show" I don't get why people are booing you? I haven't watched your big SU video yet because I want to make my own SU video and I don't want to lose my point via inspo from your video, *but* from what I've seen you mention in other videos from it...I agree with you on like 95% of it. Just because i find value in SU as a someone who grew up in his dead mother's shadow and wishes I had a show like SU showing me I wasn't alone, I also see the places where it failed...and that's ok? Do people not know that just because you find value in something, doesn't mean it is without sin and should be critiqued? The diamond redemption was in fact my least favorite part of the show. My favorite part of that entire arc was Steven learning yeah, his mom did shit and he has to deal with the fallout of all of it, *But* that doesn't make him a stand in for his mom. as he is not her and he is his own person. He also acknowledges that while he didn't cause that pain, he is her sole heir and therefore cannot escape from her actions. On the otherhand I can also acknowledge that even my favorite parts are flawed and imperfect and would have been better had his mom not been the daughter/sibling of space n*zis and cosplayed as a warrior and never admitted her mistakes and then left them for her son. Like...Rebecca Sugar and the crewniverse didn't make a *perfect* show and you should be able to say that without getting treated like you're the same sort of person who decrys a show as soon as you see one of the showrunners has pink hair.

[@BeakedRelic]

Had to look up Stella Kubler.......what in the actual fuck

[@filmaru8556]

Hey Lars got a redemption arc too