Linguist Reacts: Are NONBINARY Neopronouns Really Older Than We Think?

[@larrykuenning5754]

As a 75-year-old native speaker of American English, I am used to an informal use of "they" and "it" as pronouns of indefinite gender, as in: "The doorbell rang. Go see who it is and what they want." -- where the as-yet-unknown person is first "it" (neuter singular) and then "they" (plural). But of course the follow-up sentence would be "It's John, and he wants..." or "It's Mary, and she wants..." or "It's John and Mary, and they want..." -- where "it" appears until the person is named, and then we get the correct gender and number to agree with who "it" is. On a separate note, there was a science fiction or fantasy novel by one David Lindsay, _A Voyage to Arcturus_, which for a certain episode needed a pronoun for a third sex in a fictional species. If I remember rightly, the nominative for this pronoun was "ae," the objective was "aem," and the possessive was "aer." I don't think the story needed a plural because as it happened there was only one such character.

[@Kaotiqua]

Oh my god! THANK YOU! Thank you for showing me an everyday comfortable use of the pronoun "it" that is in no way offensive. I'd always thought surely that term would be offensive to non-binary people, as "it" literally objectifies a person as a _thing_ rather than a person. But you're spot on! I just never even considered that use to be a pronoun at all, which it clearly is!

[@housey_]

Is this not a person abstracted in some way by a thing? So the 'it' is referring to the person only through association of the doorbell sound which is itself a thing not a person.

[@AbhiN_1289]

When your language's fundemental grammatical gender system is masculine vs Non-masculine... In Telugu, we do have exclusively female pronouns, but verb conjugations are the same for neutre. Dravidian langauages as a whole are not a Masculine vs Feminine vs Neutre. It is a masculine vs non masculine. Even in Telugu, sometimes informally the word for "she" is the same as "that".

[@johnmacklin8238]

In California, we would say "bra" as a generalized version of bro for groups of mix company when we were surfing but that might have just been Is that regional slang😅

[@Kaotiqua]

But it's accepted, and commonly used. It "caught on" at least in certain cultures. Most likely because it was easy to reach for, and nobody was really confused by its meaning.

[@DEATH-THE-GOAT]

In Sweden they have "hen" 🐔

[@mollof7893]

Which no one uses.

[@DEATH-THE-GOAT]

@@mollof7893 Oh yes. You can find it on legal papers and all politicians use it. It's very sad

[@veronica-mew]

Theodore Roosevelt would have loved the way I text. I shorten everything to its phonetic roots lol

[@juhonieminen4219]

In finnish we have only "hän" pronoun for he /she. But in swedish we have grammatical genders for definition: "a /an /the" versus en/ett, den/det. I say we, because swedish is our second language in Finland. (Here languages are written with small first letters.)

[@Kaczyfunny]

In Hungarian, we also only have a one pronoun for third person, "ő". I wonder how you use it? Can you please tell me in short :-) In hungarian there are a lot more variations/forms for the grammatical cases. Sometimes we dont put the "ő" in the sentence, but the third person can be seen at the endings of the words.

[@pohjanvanamo]

​@@KaczyfunnySo cool! I was wondering if you had it too or not! I'll write an example, hope it helps. We can ditch the pronoun too, because verb ending changes also. Quite similar of what you said. Verb: to do (tehdä) I do (minä teen) You do (sinä teet) He/she does (hän tekee) We do (me teemme) You do (te teette) They do (he tekevät)

[@Kaczyfunny]

@@pohjanvanamo Thank you for the answer :-) This example in Hungarian saunds like this. To do - tesz I do - Én teszem You do - Te teszed He/she do - Ő teszi We do - Mi teszünk You do - Ti teszitek They do - Ők teszik

[@Kaczyfunny]

@@pohjanvanamo I was also wondering are there any sign of "the pronoune war" in Finnish language? How it is present? Becouse i cant imagine it in Hungarian. They only can be outraged if they hear "this young lady" or "this young man". They can only reach that way, that nobody will use descriptive language, which means no pozitive language for them.

[@user-nb8lz4zr6s]

I’ve been trying to speak without pronouns at all. Which has been interesting experiment, but the sentences tend to get very long or very choppy.

[@JackHaveman52]

She's not going to call the title of the pronoun article deceptive but she proved that it was. LOL. Good one.

[@SomeJerkOnTheInternet]

When I was younger we just dressed in all Black to feel special

[@ulfsark78]

The more mainstream the "fringe" culture becomes, the more fringe the fringe has to become.

[@Kaotiqua]

When a young person questions the nature of their gender and sexuality, it generally isn't because they "want to feel special", it's because they are growing minds that want to better understand themselves and their experience of the world. That's actually really normal behavior for teens and young adults, and better understanding oneself and one's world should generally be considered a _good_ thing. Also, for the record, black is slimming, makes you less noticeable in a crowd, and saves a ton of cash on accessorizing, since everything goes with black. 😆

[@ulfsark78]

@@Kaotiqua Yeah no, it's NOT normal to question your GENDER. This whole gender shit is a social contagion. No different than girls becoming bulimic together, or the trend of developing fake tourette tics from watching videos about people with fake tourette's syndrome. Or having multiple personalities. Both of which are spread via social media.

[@Cristyface]

​@@Kaotiquabeing curious and confused is one thing, but the guidance provided shouldn't be to encourage someone to be something they're not for the sake of "acceptance" but rather helping the child understand that they can express themselves freely while still being either a boy or girl, not some "other".

[@cyberpunkdarren]

Another good example is yall or y'all from American south slang for "you all"

[@DEATH-THE-GOAT]

When everyone knows it's "youse guyes"

[@robokill387]

"you" originally meant "you, plural". the pronoun for "you, singular" was "thou".

[@davidbrown8518]

The biggest problem with phonetic spelling is that pronunciations change, so the spelling would have to be revised from time to time, to suit. That is very confusing and would result in more pain for kids learning to spell. In addition, many words have different standard pronunciations in different groups, so which one should the lexicons adopt? It makes more sense to pronounce words according to their spelling. This would mean that the silent ‘K’ in “knife” would be sounded with its cutting sound and the pronunciation would attach to its meaning. Americans are self-deceived in their phonetic spelling. They work out a lot of it with their ears closed. You list the word “centre’ - an English word that comes from French. I have never heard an American say “centER”, so their spelling is not phonetic at all. The word is pronounced either ‘centr’ or ‘centa’. The same argument applies to the word “theater”. No American has ever gone to the ‘theatER’. They go to either the 'theatr' or the 'theata'. But why do Americans tinker with the rear end of words and not ‘correct’ the front? The letter ‘C’ should be dropped altogether and changed to either ‘S’ or ‘K’ depending on how it is sounded. In this case the word would become ‘senta’ or ‘sentr’. In some countries this will be familiar in the Central Business District of a town or city identified as the “Sentrum”. Where the ‘C’ is sounded as ‘K’ we would get: Konsentrik Sirkles.

[@mitchmccarron8337]

Hey Lana, new sub - intelligent, attractive and confident is a winning combination ;) Cheers, Mitch from Australia.

[@anonymussicarius8899]

Must be because I´m a non-native, but I would have just said "If a professor teaches a class they blablabla." In the old times in german the generic masculinum would have been used, or use a noune that allows for the third person plural "sie". Looking forward to the next Tolien vid! :D

[@jaernihiltheus7817]

"They" or "he" is acceptable if you don't know the sex of the professor in the example, since "they" tends to be more generic and english typically defaults to masculine forms.

[@Kaotiqua]

@@jaernihiltheus7817 The problem arises from the use of they as a collective/plural, which can feel very awkward when you're addressing a singular, specific person.

[@andreasrumpf9012]

No idea what you're talking about, in the German the generic masculinum is alive and well and every child uses it.

[@gerarddearie-zd2gb]

The differences between British and American spelling are a lot older than 1906 and are because of Daniel Webster, who wrote the first dictionary of American English-the examples you selected (honour vs honor etc) are because of him and nothing to do with anything which happened in 1906

[@chrisf9377]

The concept of non-binary is completely illogical. "Man" & "woman" are not social constructs distinct from male/female where you can choose man/woman/neither (aka non-binary). The social constructs are the INDIVIDUAL stereotypes. Things like clothing, hairstyles, personality etc. Every person chooses their own unique set of stereotypes, not man/woman/neither. A person is either a man or woman, no matter which set of stereotypes that they choose.

[@marc.levinson]

Modern science disagrees. There are separate words for gender and sex because they are different. Even sex is bimodal (not binary) and even some people with distinct gametes can have hormone washes in utero that cause them to identify more with a different gender. There are also people who are born intersex. Completely ignoring the existence of people who very clearly exist is illogical.

[@motc8238]

fun thing: biological sex isn't binary either. Intersex exists

[@mxdahliabelle]

That's all well and good, until people interact with their surrounding culture, at which point our individual preferences, personalities, and stereotypes impact how we are labeled and treated by others.

[@Obi-Wan_Pierogi]

Where does intersex or hermaphrodite fall on your binary scale?

[@lancemagmer9701]

Whenever someone says something like "A person is either a man or woman" I always wonder if they are a pe phile

[@IvanIvanov-ug5dc]

3:00 - I like "heesh". But my favourite are "we including you" and "we, where you are not included".

[@pugil1st]

You absolutely nailed it!

[@BubblyBanjax]

In relation to the bit at the end about phonetic spelling, you may find it interesting to know, if you didn't know it already, that there is an old Irish form of writing called Ogham which was apparently used super phonetically. I cannot remember where or when I found that out but it's stuck with me. I believe it was partially due to the fact that Ogham was typically carved into stone, particularly around corners, and thus space to write on was typically somewhat limited. Also carving into stone is a time-consuming pain in the butt

[@angielovesjb101]

What an interesting video. Never would have known about the previous attempts at creating a new pronoun to mean either the man or woman previously mentioned. Good to know.

[@APOLLOPATRIOT]

Great video ya woman of culture have a God blessed day 🤙🤘🗿🗿🗿

[@edwardpaddock2528]

A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling by Mark Twain For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

[@sageoverheaven]

Reminded me why I adore Twain's writing

[@edwardpaddock2528]

@@sageoverheaven 100%

[@MrCrispyduck]

Can't wait for national adjectives day. I like adjectives.

[@jeffape63]

I don't mind if people want to Live Action Role Play, as long as they aren't harming others. When they start to confuse their imaginary world with reality and then insist that other not-confused people also live in their fantasy world then I can no longer be tolerant. When they also try to recruit children into their confusion then they need to be ejected from polite society. Tolerance is not a virtue in and of itself.

[@ShimmerBodyCream]

people try to recruit people into gender all the time. Look at gender reveal parties and painting girls rooms pink.

[@carl7382]

I always find it interesting how so called nonbinary people say that everyone is using archaic language. Then turn around and say that the pronouns they want to use are old.

[@johnturner7790]

All examples other than "than" are an attempt to refer to a single unknown individual without using they which is a plural.

[@MrHodoAstartes]

Well, "thon" received arguably a revival in the form of "thot", as a more dramatic abbreviation with more specific meaning. Although it does not really fulfill the role of a pronoun but a noun in common usage.

[@Kaotiqua]

I wouldn't call that a revival, since the origins are completely different. "Thot" is literally and deliberately offensive slang for "That Ho Over There". Whereas, as far as I know, "thon" was a deliberate, and non-offensive attempt to coin a gender-neutral pronoun.

[@catcalculator559]

In my language if we want to refer to a group that we dont know the sex we simply use the male plural example: veterinaria(female vetenerian) veterinario(male vetenerian), um grupo de veterinarios ( even if there may have males and females vetenerians in that group we use th e male plural and understand it)

[@spaceanarchist1107]

I always preferred "hesh, himer, hiser". I'm kind of disappointed that they/them is the epicene that recently caught on; to me it's the "lazy" term. I was in a online gaming community once that used sie/hir/hirs. That was back in the days before large platforms like Twitter and Facebook, when each community might have its own subculture.

[@xanclips.gg48]

You didn't mention the use of the singular they that is and has been in use for quite a while as neutral without necessarily the implication of speaking of a non binary person. Also outside of English linguistics there are some pronouns designated for ppl with undefined gender or that outside the binary in other languages. Often times neutral pronouns appear not through the intent of creating inclusion or efficiency but more as a by-product of humans being lazy or just seeing ppl that don't fit into the binary and being weirded out

[@eehlohluell]

Singular "they" is only used when the person's sex is indiscernable, not because people choose and ask people to use it or because they "identify" themselves outside the binary.

[@beanwithbacon]

There's no such thing as a "non-binary" person though...

[@user-df8hl4zx2l]

I want to know which language keeps pronouns for people outside of the binary. Hindi uses the masculine conjugation for the Hijras (they don't have gendered pronouns, but conjugation is gendered in some cases). There are some languages that have specific pronouns for priesthood, but not for someone outside the binary. Also, generic they is used when people don't know who the person is or their sex, it's not used when people know the person.

[@mxdahliabelle]

@user-df8hl4zx2l That’s simply untrue, as is the statement above that "there's no such thing as a nonbinary person." My disbelief in a personified supreme being doesn't magically negate the existence of religion. That's not how reality works. As long as people adopt the nonbonary label, those people exist, and if a large percentage of those people use they/them/theirs as single person pronouns and other people refer to them accordingly (because there's absolutely no rational reason not to), then people do, in fact, refer to people with undefined genders as they/them whether or not they personally know them, and the concept communicated by doing so is that the person in question has an undefined gender.

[@beanwithbacon]

@@mxdahliabelle Just because some one makes up a concept doesn't mean it has to be respected.

[@QueenAstroParticle]

I've always been fond of "thon" regardless of original intent. I'd love to see that take off. Certainly better than anything being tossed around today.

[@thethrashyone]

Thon, xe/xir...you know, if just one of these people can come up with a new pronoun that _doesn't_ sound like an extraterrestrial's name, _maybe_ I'll consider using it.

[@ChaosPod]

There is the generic he where if the gender is unknown he is used as the default gender to mean he or she.

[@AbhiN_1289]

When your pronouns are just demonstratives... Sanskrit (and Latin) have no "He" or "She" pronouns. It is literally "That/This" masculine, "That/This" femenine, "That/This" Neutre.

[@ErnestoBernesto]

Literally 😂 Latin is just “that masculine thing” “that neuter thing” “this feminine thing” trying to have they/them in Latin would’ve been laughable

[@KevinArdala01]

I know nadda about language, so excuse my ignorance, but couldn't we just use a diacritical marker to imply that although we are using "he" or "she" we cannot assume the gender unless it's been made explicitly clear and that in ordinary life we would simply ask rather than infer. I don't think we should do this as I think it's all gnostic gobbledygook, but it makes more sense to me than changing the words entirely (and somewhat arbitrarily), unless the motivating ideology is the real objective of the word change and not linguistic accommodation.

[@user-gk9ut9qc1o]

thon? now that's a curious thing

[@sudokode]

How does this video have 13K likes with 6K views? Seems like someone is messing with you 😂

[@Tulin730]

Wouldn't having a word to refer to somebody they its neither a boy or girl be economicizing language? It also seems the article is correct. Pronouns are constantly bring played with added and removed from the language. You just dont think these words are useful. Not really a counterpoint. Just your bias.

[@satomizukutomekitoari6144]

I wonder if one/oneself could work in place of they/them for a singluar epicene pronoun. It's not a neopronoun.

[@miramirror2383]

Hey I like your content, what are your thoughts on the whole 'in order for someone to experience racism they must have privilege plus power'?

[@LanaMarie]

My thoughts are that i'm european and i try to stay faaar away from american race politics... I talk about language because it's my area of expertise, and if this video comes across as political, it's probably because american "politics" is encroaching on linguistics/everything, not vice versa.

[@ae9999]

@@LanaMarierace and racism exists in europe too 🤔

[@langustajableczna]

@@ae9999 it's completly different than ours. The world looks at usa like it's a dystopia. We have almost nothing in common. That's an american projection towards other countries and their problems, not a question about our particular problems and social issues.

[@miramirror2383]

@@LanaMarieThat's fair enough, you just seem to know your stuff when it comes to English, so that's why I asked. I wanted to get a linguists take on it, anyone else I can ask?

[@ae9999]

@@langustajableczna i dont think ‘the rest of the world looks at the us like its a dystopia’. Quality of life is better in the USA than most of the world. If you mean Europe looks at the USA like its a dystopia, perhaps some have that attitude. Certainly the USA has many problems. But, speaking as a European, I think its ignorant beyond belief to treat racism like its an ‘american’ problem.

[@birchleaf]

Just switch to Finnish, which doesn’t have gendered pronouns. Everybody is referred to as hän, no matter what gender or sexual preference they are/have.

[@whiteshadow8520]

Why use thon when they exists?

[@domianfreimann9487]

just use latin: male - female - and "ne utrum" (non of the above)

[@lancemagmer9701]

I honestly expected more eunuchs/castrattos

[@allyedowd]

Castratti.

[@mollof7893]

English clearly want to be a numbered language, not a gendered language, even tho using the plural as a polite pronoun is common among Germanic languages, "they" will end up like "you" and a new plural needs to be invented.

[@SavedSkeptic]

Thank you for exposing the lies of this nonsense!

[@Flippotycoon4583]

Haha get your mind out of the gutter 😂

[@pohjanvanamo]

So... Finnish is cool 😎 Hän = he/she Have a nice day everyone 😉 (It's not so serious, heesh 😋)

[@motc8238]

Why are you now all of a sudden creating 3 videos in a row about neopronouns?

[@IGuessItsSketchyT]

I will never use or respect neopronouns! 😂

[@motc8238]

It feels like your argument is that all of these words and ideas were not created for non-binary people, that's probably why some non-binary people want to coin their own pronouns. But the use of these 'genderless' pronouns are to describe someone whos binary gender is not determined. This fits with many non-binary people. Non-Binary people have existed in cultures throughout history.

[@DEATH-THE-GOAT]

I identify as a *GOD*

[@APOLLOPATRIOT]

I identify as a Abrams Tank 🤣🔥🗽🦅🇺🇸

[@mickfromleitrim]

Overweight and cumbersome?

[@mxdahliabelle]

This is an extremely lazy approach to linguistics. Language evolves as human ideas evolve. Your discomfort with or inability to understand something doesn't negate that idea's adoption by others. Reality is defined not by a textbook or tradition. Reality is defined by how real people navigate the real world.

[@ViddyOJames]

Compelled speech is not evolution, and word inventions nobody uses die stillborn.

[@kimmiewise1044]

And reality says that there is no such thing as non-binary because there is no reality to back up the concept beyond some brainwashed teenagers on Tumblr. If you really believed reality trumped your made up delusions you would admit to being Homophobic and treating a homophobic slur as a fancy TikTok hastag miss gender q*eer.

[@terrys.2342]

The problem I have is that these individuals want to point towards the past and claim that these neopronouns have existed before and because of that it gives them validity. All sorts of things existed in the past such as humours in medicine, human sacrifices, slavery, child brides, and more. Just because something once existed does not give it any validity.