Secret Empire, Part 2 - Atop the Fourth Wall

Part 2 of 3. Part 3: • Secret Empire, Part 3 ...
Welcome to Atop the Fourth Wall, where bad comics burn. In this episode, Linkara continues Event Comics Month 3 with Marvel's event where Captain America is a member of Hydra!
Check out more AT4W shirts at Shark Robot: sharkrobot.com/collections/at...
atopthefourthwall.com
Originally released July 22nd, 2020.
ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION: This may be the worst kept secret Marvel ever did.
#at4w #SecretEmpire #EventComicsMonth

[@ramirezthesilvite]

"Get rid of the Nazis now and we'll work on everything else after!" I feel like this is good advice in general.

[@GeneralKenobi75]

It's the advice we need to take nowadays in real life. Since we've got a bunch of fascists in our government we need to get rid of before we do anything else.

[@rikowolfin4984]

Problem is that it's too good of advice, to the point that people start seeing Nazi's everywhere to explain away literally every problem with out giving it any real thought because "Hey they're Nazi's, I don't have to hear out any of the real issues going on!" even though the people they are talking about aren't actually Nazi's. Case and point, the first reply to this comment is basically saying the government is run by Nazi's.

[@cartooncritic7045]

@@rikowolfin4984 The first comment didn't mention the Nazis, they mentioned fascists, which our government is at best amused by and at worst outright supports. Like, there's no way a non-fascist sympathizer can walk away from the Charlottesville disaster thinking there are good people deliberately associating themselves with open Khlansmen and Neo-Nazis.

[@rikowolfin4984]

@@cartooncritic7045 "The first comment didn't mention the Nazis" "It's the advice ("Get rid of the Nazis now and we'll work on everything else after!") we need to take nowadays in real life." The comment didn't DIRECTLY mention Nazi's, but it certainly did mean to since it was talking about OP's comment about it when referring to the 'advice'. At the very least they still implied that the government was run by Nazi's other wise it would have been weird to go from that, to directly talking about the government in reference to 'getting rid of the nazis now' and then dealing with other things later. What they didn't so much as hint at talking about was Charlottesville, not saying they couldn't be talking about that but if they are they should have been more clear, because as it stands their post just sounds like they think a lot of the government is ran by Nazi's and not certain parts that are guilty of certain wrong doings.

[@GeneralKenobi75]

@@rikowolfin4984 I was talking about fascists in general. And right now our government is full of them, recent events are displaying that in full force.

[@butchdeadlift10]

You would think Magneto and Dr Doom would go hunting for Hydra on the weekends. A romani mad scientist wizard and a Polish Jewish holocaust surviving super mutant probably hate Nazi's more than Captain America does.

[@171QA]

Yeah, where were they in this special?

[@butchdeadlift10]

@@171QA No idea

[@christiancrusader9374]

I'd watch it if it became a show.

[@butchdeadlift10]

@@christiancrusader9374 Marvel's Inglorious Bastards

[@brandonlyon730]

Didn’t Magento one time threw the Red Skull in a prison and buried him in it?

[@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache]

*Everyone, including Marvel at this time:* "Hydra ISN'T Nazis, okay, guys?" *Hydra, for decades in comics:* "Yeah but like, no, though. We were for a long time..."

[@shadowlinkbds]

You like being everywhere don't you?

[@slashandbones13]

In universe Hydra has existed for thousands of years and morph into different things over time.

[@BlueHero45]

@@slashandbones13 Ya, I think the statement they wanted to make was not that Hdyra were not Nazi, but Hdyra were more then just Nazis. That members were just a willing to be communists in Russia after the war if it meant they could start to take over down the line. Just as many hid in america as sleeper agents.

[@cyberninjazero5659]

@@BlueHero45 It's kind of like Fascist Italy. It's not Nazi by itself but it will ally with them. Hydra is sometimes Nazi (when operated by Red Skull) sometimes not but it's always Fascist

[@Linklex7]

The only people who think Hydra aren’t nazis are casual MCU fans

[@KatarnandKanos]

As a long time fan of the Punisher, I'd just like to say: Frank Castle is not a good man. He's kind of a monster, in fact. But for all his faults, his one saving grace is that he'd never allow innocent people to come to harm if he could do something to stop it. Innocent bystanders being killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time is literally the defining moment of his backstory. He would NEVER side with an organization that blows up cities!

[@paulakroy2635]

Punisher is a good man even if he’s a psychopath

[@Vesperitis]

In Punisher MAX, arguably with the most psychopathic version of Frank Castle, he draws a horde of gangsters away from their families (they were at a Don’s birthday party) before unloading on the gangsters, protects little children, and once non-lethally fought off a team of Delta Force operatives sent to capture him. Yeah, he’d slaughter Hydra goons all the live long day, no matter who was leading them.

[@Fuzzy_Barbarian]

A reminder: Namor also FOUGHT THE NAZIS HIMSELF ALONGSIDE CAP. Just... no. Namor surrendering to Hydra Cap, even as a trick, is not a thing that'd happen. Even the suggestion would make him tear someone in half.

[@sarafontanini7051]

They just did it cause 'namor's often a villain' and so thought it'd work without actually realising why that was a stupid idea

[@Fuzzy_Barbarian]

@@BigK13372 Recent stories have it be that his dislike of humans increases tenfold as a result of WWII, dead friends and the Allies ignoring his contributions afterwards... also, his mind being messed with by psychics. Plus, sure, he can do bad things. But he's nowhere near as bad as the Nazis. He's in the same vein as Doctor Doom or Magneto -- they have a degree of standards but CAN veer into sheer supervillainy at times as a result of how shitty their lives were. Namor just happens to do it more frequently because writers forget that the guy is supposed to have some heroic traits in there -- which is funny, given that he sided with Cyclops during Schism who ALSO got this treatment for a while under some writers -- and instead just default to writing him as evil Aquaman who likes blonde women already in relationships. But even WITH all that... he still wouldn't do this. Because it is still the Nazis who he fought against for years and who killed many of his friends, friends he still looks fondly on (for a GOOD modern Namor scene, see his reunion with Bucky in the "Winter Soldier: Winter Kills" one-shot). I think it's pretty clear that Namor's dislike of Nazis extends further than "they're bad for the ocean".

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

@@Fuzzy_Barbarian Yeah. and even if people doens't see Namor's heroic side, Namor's nasty side would immediately make namor side with the heroes if only to spite Stevil. just look at his feud with Black Panther in Hickman's Avengers. Namor would have sided with the heroes if only for personal vendetta and revenge and to spite stevil. with the bonus of bringing back the real steve rogers. Also Even if thor was at his most depressive, he would have most likely betrayed HYDRA IN ISSUE 5 OR 6 an not barely up to the second to last issue, realizing his mistake.

[@cassiedevereaux-smith3890]

Oh c'mon, if Namor's known for anything it's his humility, affability, and mild temper. ;')

[@Xecryo]

*In an alternate reality* Captain America: Hail Hy*BANG* Punisher: You're welcome.

[@gtsgreatteacherscathach5550]

Everyone in comic: it's my fault all this happened. Everyone reading the comic: STOP BLAMING YOURSELVES AND FIGHT THE DAMN NAZIS ALREADY!

[@xcellentcreations3312]

I mean...points for the writers for having tony and carol feel bad about what they did in civil war 2, but this is the worst time to blame yourself!

[@obiwanobiwan13]

Sadly a good metaphor for a lot of the in-fighting among different political groups right now, instead of, ya know, *fighting the literal flag-carrying self-proclaimed NEO-NAZIS IN OUR STREETS.* As Linkara says, "GET RID OF THE NAZIS NOW, AND WE'LL WORK ON EVERYTHING ELSE AFTER, JEEZ!" Yep...yep, yep, yep...

[@juliagoodwin9510]

THANK YOU!

[@kieranmclaughlin264]

Secret empire: Where we blame literally everybody except THE ACTUAL NAZI'S. Alternatively. Secret empire: The event with such poor handling of themes and writing that the issues that would work better as tie-ins are the least of our concerns.

[@benwasserman8223]

Well, you want to blame everyone but the white nationalists for what's going on with America rn?

[@benwasserman8223]

@@marley7868 No I mean like the white supremacist ideology driving police brutality and the Charlottesville rallies and the demonization of Inhuma... I mean immigrants as a threatening other to "ordinary" citizens. Just saying, there's always a build up to why people embrace hatred as policy.

[@jamesfirecat6652]

@@marley7868 Can you please clarify your argument/statement, what you are trying to prove/suggest/argue because I have no intention of putting words in your mouth.

[@klankorbus7874]

Spencer's point is that all the in-fighting among the heroes allowed Stevil to secretly gain as much power as he had amassed that he could so easily take over. No one was paying attention to what he was doing.

[@jamesfirecat6652]

@@marley7868 Hating people for things they do (being/supporting Nazis) is entirely different from hating them for things beyond their control (race, sex, gender, trans versus cis status, place of birth, ethnicity, so on and so forth).

[@Astrithor]

Alucard: "...it was the Nazi's, wasn't it?"

[@richmcgee434]

Somewhere Integra is screaming.

[@MrImastinker]

PrestonDCale “It’s the fucking...” “NAZIIIIIIIIS!”

[@chwenhoou]

That's what this book needs! A real fucking vampire capping Nazis like it ain't no thing.

[@juniorjunior5884]

@@chwenhoou The whole story would end in like three pages.

[@richmcgee434]

@@juniorjunior5884 And one of those pages would just be Alucard standing atop a pile of Nazi corpses laughing like a madman.

[@DetectorCliche]

"Would you people stop quoting songs from "Into the Woods" and just blame the goddamn nazis already, because I hate to break it to you: Its the goddamn Nazi's fault." Another epic quote from AT4W for the history books.

[@171QA]

I’m pretty sure if Doom and Magento were in the story they would remind all the heroes that the Hydra are really at fault since they’re Nazis.

[@blixer8384]

Why wasn’t Magneto in this story? Seriously was he just sitting around sipping tea why the United States was getting taken over by *THE FUCKING NAZIS?* He was a Holocaust survivor for fuck’s sake and once hunted down Red Skull himself and then buried the nazi pig fucker alive.

[@lukedalton]

@@blixer8384 he was in the story, at least in the tie-in...basically accepted to not interfere in Hydra affair and not fight them in exchange of the west coast of the USA as a mutant separate nation. Yeah it's that bad (btw naturally human even if theoretically have the same rights are de facto second class citizen)

[@sarafontanini7051]

@@lukedalton Mageneto should've flown in, crushed Stevil under a safe, pissed on his corpse, set it on fire, flipped off everyone and then yelled at the supporters for siding with FUCKING NAZIS, and then flew off while flipping everyone off.

[@lukedalton]

@@sarafontanini7051 just one of the many character assassination

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

@@lukedalton for some reason victor von doom was neither involed in the evetns of secret empire (not even in a tie in saying he was defending latveria alone) or the mini-event Ultimates Squared had where they where dealing First Firmament (which was something oe would think victor von doom should get involved. given the events of secret wars 2015 indirectly led to the confrontation with first firmament)

[@JomasterTheSecond]

"I'm partial to 'Stevil'." "Me too, but I also accept 'Mistake'." Too perfect.

[@katsomeday1]

Another reason why Namor capitulating to the Hydra is BS, Namor gave up his first war on the surface join the Allies in WWII and punch fricking Nazis in the face.

[@aaronbourque5494]

"I haven't read Civil War 2." Nor should you. It's awful. It might even be worse than the original Civil War. Sheesh.

[@TMT66666]

I second this!

[@benwasserman8223]

I liked it.

[@BlueHero45]

It's worse. It's a rip off of minority report with both sides taking oddly extreme sides and refusing to take obvious compromises. Like instead of using the future seeing kid to try and stop all crime everywhere, just use him warn of alien invasions and natural disasters. That way if his vision is wrong you only managed to waste some time in the name of preparedness.

[@slifer875]

its worse than the first civil war AND this event, it might be the worse event in the history of marvel, there wasn't even a debate, carol is wrong since page one and she keeps getting worse, but marvel kept insisting she is right and she is a hero, somehow she got rewarded at the end for her downright evil behavior.......

[@ItsTheFizz]

IT IS WORSE

[@JageshemashFTW]

“Multiple people are believing Hydra are the good guys because Cap says it’s okay!” The fact that this isn’t all that unrealistic in today’s political climate physically hurts me.

[@richmcgee434]

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

[@Ghostlyking-tc3vu]

It physically and mentally hurts me too

[@ForrestFox626]

That is depressing

[@Ghostlyking-tc3vu]

Darius Brown tell me about it just sucks so bad I mean from COVID 19 to all the racial discrimination and hate the fact our government and our President is a joke at this point I might just hit the bar and pub for who knows how long

[@Dark.Shingo]

It used to be bad writing, nowadays it's bad reality.

[@tf2godz]

That Ultron part is amazing, why couldn't the event be about this. No seriously, have it be at an event with Hank Pym trying to take over the world because he wants to fix this family. especially since Marvel is criticized for having it's Heroes fighting each other all the time. I would read it.

[@Mr4thDoctor]

That would be worth the read. Certainly better than this.

[@michaeliv284]

Honestly, I'd just read a comic where he and Ultron are I therapy

[@sarafontanini7051]

"You see. The world is flawed. I see it now. The world's 'heroes' are too focused fighting each other for reasons that ultimately change and don't matter, if they don't fall to outright villainy like Danvers. So, since you're busy fighting each other trying to make the world a better place...how about I step in and make it a better place MYSELF, since all of you obviously don't really care. Besides, at least I'm HONEST about it." Pymtron, possibly

[@Future_Vantas]

Marvel's Group Therapy of Ultron, Summer 2099

[@richmcgee434]

@@michaeliv284 Agreed. Who do we get for their therapist. Doc Samson?

[@chaoticjusticezero]

Ultron: This conflict should be based on the idea that one side is right and one side is wrong. My perspective is that both sides are wrong and I hate them. And yikes, if Secret Empire has you screaming this much, I pity your vocal cords and sanity with Heroes in Crisis.

[@alexandersturnn4530]

@@RealGateGuardian Oh don't worry... HIC is coming next Week, as the last Installment of this Years Event Comics-Month.

[@chaoticjusticezero]

@@RealGateGuardian HIC is next week. And keep in mind that he likes Booster Gold, Harley Quinn, and Wally West. Calling it now, new Combine Harvester skit in a week.

[@djquinn4825]

@@RealGateGuardian The events that'll be covered were voted on and announced a bit ago.

[@alexandersturnn4530]

@@RealGateGuardian What Dj Quinn said.

[@battlion507]

@@chaoticjusticezero "Linkara likes Booster Gold, Harley Quinn and Wally West." HO GAWD, please don't tell me they were out of character, killed, worse...

[@phoenixshadow6633]

With the amount of legacy heroes during this era of Marvel, wouldn't it have been great to have legacy villains? Like, what if Hydra, realizing their own mortality, ended up rounding up orphans and gathering DNA for genetic experiments to forge for themselves a new generation of Hydra fanatics, a Secret Empire if you will.

[@archivepanic9325]

I'd pay money to read this.

[@mediabaron2416]

There's already a group called The Secret Empire. They were a subsidiary of Hydra that later broke away..... Oh, they also had a flying volcano lair at one point.

[@Vegadra]

I know Red Skull has his daughter Sin. He tortured her until she went crazy and evil.

[@mediabaron2416]

@Tyler Foster Well, they did take a pretty big blow from the U.S.Avengers just prior to this event and lost their flying volcano base.... Oh yeah, the U.S.Avengers. They were thing around this time. Ironically, they spent most of this event over in Europe helping Captain Britain and the gang.

[@Linklex7]

Legacy villains rarely work except for Barbara Ann Minerva (2nd Cheetah) Professor Zoom (2nd Reverse Flash) and Harry Osborn (2nd Green Goblin).

[@monkeykingw]

Here's my biggest problem with Secret Empire: It had SUCH a major effect on Deadpool's story. Yeah, see, before Secret Empire, Deadpool was doing /really/ well. Like, he was near fully a good guy at that point. Daughter and everything. But like Punisher, Wade's blind faith in Captain America lead to him, oh I don't know... killing freaking AGENT COULSON. Who would have been the key to stopping Hydra's initial victory. And yeah, Deadpool suffered MAJOR repercussions for doing that, since you know, everyone loves Coulson.

[@farmerproductions9869]

Led to coulson coming back thanks to Mephisto, lost trust in the superhero population and puts together a new squadron supreme to be the new greatest heroes for the us but they operate on the idea that they should only care about saving America and not any other part of the planet

[@juliagoodwin3461]

FarmerProductions And this is why I’m on the edge of abandoning Marvel although. Also DC for other reasons.

[@Fingleberrys]

I don't see how that's a bad thing. The deadpool storyline we got out of it was one of the best we've had in years

[@dragonstormx]

This stupid sales gimmick was a blight on Marvel.

[@Future_Vantas]

Gotta love that while Frank Castle didnt realize he was doing wrong by allying with Nazis until the Not-So-Secret Empire fell, Deadpool had growing doubt, and was ready to turn on Stevil when Maria Hill buried him under a parking garage. Both men trusted Cap, but only one had the heart to see beyond his trust.

[@thomaspalazzolo5902]

If Magneto had been present in this series, that Linkara rant at the end would've been his dialogue word-for-word.

[@Rabbitlord108]

In case you haven't found out by now. MAGNETO became a NAZI in a tie-in. Yes. The HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR became a nazi.

[@Mr4thDoctor]

Alright, I have to admit: the scene with Pymtron forcing an intervention between the two sides was fucking hilarious, and probably the high point of this train wreck. And this probably the most frustrated I've seen Linkara, with him yelling at everyone to blame the damn Nazis.

[@richmcgee434]

Agreed. Been a long time since I was happy to see Hank show up anywhere (as in, long before the spousal abuse) but this was gold.

[@michaeliv284]

It's funny that the genocidal robot is the most sensible one there

[@Robin0928]

You know whats the weirdest thing? This story would have worked a lot better if the true hero of the story was Sam Wilson. If this was the story of Sam fully accepting that he is worthy of the role of Captain America. Yeah, keep the whole "this isnt the real Steve, the real Steve comes back after this story" thing, but have the one to defeat Stevil be Sam, have the point of this event be that Sam CHOOSES to be Captain America. The two Captain America books at the time and Secret Empire should have been the story of the fall and rise of Sam Wilson as Captain America, but the book seems to suggest that the only hope in the Marvel universe is Steve Rogers.

[@tomhur1]

See here's the thing. I think that was the INTENTION of the book at first...but then after the backlash, they realized it HAD to end with the real Steve Rogers saving the day and Sam Wilson Captain America getting retired. Which is a damn shame because I loved Sam as Captain America. Can't wait to see him in the MCU!

[@Robin0928]

@@tomhur1 Same, as someone who read the Sam Wilson: Captain America book from its inception, I was a huge fan of that character. It was a totally different vibe to the previous Cap runs. And the idea of having 2 Captain Americas wouldn't have been bad. Maybe in the aftermath of Secret Empire, Steve takes on being Cap as a spy kinda thing, hiding in the shadows cause no one wants to see him after the whole Nazi thing while Sam takes on the public duties of Captain America, being on the Avengers and all. It could have been a good dynamic for two books.

[@kws2534]

Sam does get a pretty amazing moment towards the end of this book but yes, given how much Marvel and Spencer raved that HYDRA Cap was the real Cap we'd all known and loved since forever and it definitely wasn't an alternate version, I too was hoping Secret Empire would end with Sam laying the smackdown on Stevil and takes his place as Captain America permanently.

[@Robin0928]

@@kws2534 Like, I get that they wanted to end this story with the triumphant return of Steve Rogers and have him take up the mantle of Captain America again, but from an in universe perspective, why would he? Why would anyone want Steve to be Cap again when Stevil has been running around the last year or so taking over the world? Wouldn't it make more sense for Sam to take up the mantle and be the public face and legacy for Captain America while Steve sticks around as, like, the Avengers liason to Shield or something

[@kws2534]

@@Robin0928 Yup! That would make sense but shortly after this, Marvel returned to the "status quo" of before so to speak because I dunno, there were afraid of growth and great story telling maybe? They pretty much used the end of this event to undo so much. Odinson is back as Thor, Steve back as Cap, Peter Parker back to being poor, Logan is alive and well and back as Wolverine! And I honestly don't know what happens in Cap's book after this event (I stopped reading once they "retired" Sam from the role, I was so pissed) but as you'll see as this event hits its end, once the real Steve Rogers resurfaces, the heroes are all "AW STEVE! WE KNEW IT WASN'T YOU ALL ALONG! WELCOME BACK!" Like, no one is hesitant or distrustful of him. I don't know if Steve had to build back the public's trust after this but it seems like the hero community gave zero fucks and welcomed him back with open arms.

[@sunnyparthos3177]

“I’ll talk about this later!” Don’t worry man we know you got a point and I’ll be here for it.

[@baliyae]

Well said.

[@dragon1130]

Yeah. It might take him three episodes to get to it, but we'll be here to see it.

[@battlion507]

And I'm guessing nobody and even Linkara is not gonna be happy about it... if it was apparent for the last 20+ minutes... and the other 20+ from the last vid of showcasing terrible, Terrible, TERRIBLE ideas... and why they failed.

[@MrSGZone]

Agreed while I like the idea of a big part of this stories themes being battling hope and hopelessness. Especially right now, I'm eager to hear how they messed up either that message or the execution or both.

[@Evanswift]

Nah man, once he says “I’ll talk about it later” I get confused and scream like a chimp until he explains it. I’ve passed out alot

[@rassilontdavros3004]

“Get rid of the Nazis now, and we’ll work on everything else later!” Words to live by.

[@1227CGanimated]

It would be better to include capitalists and monarchs too.

[@JuanLeon-oe6xe]

​@@1227CGanimated I would worry about the dbztards first (after the non-dbztard nazis). Conspiracy "theories" starting at "aNtIvAkZ" and ending with climate change denying (Greetings from Mexico, "thanks" for the droughts assholes), using "power level" as dog-whistle for white supremacism... Wait, considering the reaction to FFXIII (long story short, telling the almost-nazis you won't play by their rules "crono trigers" them) and how that ended up leaving us with F76/Anthem/The Day Before.... Yeah you still have a point, forget I said anything.

[@redjirachi1]

Linkara: Well, at least we have the worst event over Heroes in Crisis: Exists Linkara: DO NOT WANT!!!

[@jameshowlett5106]

Problem with Carol in Civil War II is that Marvel (the company) basically learned NOTHING from how bad Tony's characterization was in the first Civil War. While Carol wasn't AS BAD as Tony was there (hey, she didn't make a buck off throwing people in jail, nor did she make robotic clones of her friends), she wasn't much better. Then again, they shouldn't have bothered with a Civil War II in the first place 'cause it was just a transparent attempt to cash in on the third Captain America movie. And it wasn't very good (Event Comics Month IV maybe?).

[@eamonndeane587]

I'd also like to see Linkara cover Secret Wars 2 for that month as well...

[@eanrollins3443]

Civil War 2 ruined Carol Danvers in alot of peoples eyes.

[@grantmoore8228]

I personally think Civil War 2 did more damage to Carol than Tony in the original, at least in terms in the real world. Civil War 2 was the first major exposure to Captain Marvel for a lot of people and I have seen many people utterly despise her because of that event comic. Surprisingly people weren't a fan of the psychopath who wanted to hold a prisoner indefinitely without evidence and reacted to her boyfriends death as you would a houseplant. I have heard and seen multiple people refuse to read her solo book and watch her movie because they thought it would feature the same crazy lady who was responsible for so much pain and misery.

[@toqkaizogou1636]

Also to add a minor nitpick to CW2 that isn't really related to the Carol thing, but still annoys me to this day: The early FALSE ADVERTISING when announcing the event. The original announcement for it was an image of Tony fighting Sam Wilson's Cap. Like it makes me think they hadn't even actually came up with the plot for the book at that point (proving the point of it being a cashgrab), because why else would this happen? It wasn't even like that was ever gonna be a small fight that'd happen, because IIRC, Sam was on Tony's side.

[@spawnfyre]

From what I remember it was going to be just a smaller story until one of Bendis's editors told him his story was basically CW2. CW2 was basically 7 issues of Carol saying she was right and people doubting her, and then by the final issues I think it was...Beast(?) who doubted her and all of sudden it was like this BIG revelation that maybe she was wrong. Also literally nothing was resolved with Ulysses and he just flew into space for...reasons. Absolutely awful.

[@angryspork610]

That "It's the Nazi's fault" portion needs its own clip. Also, language!

[@originalindigodingo]

Followed with a link to register to vote.

[@maddiewettach4954]

Linkara 2028!

[@toqkaizogou1636]

tolchok89 that's your cue

[@Jonesy89CFPD]

Smash the fash

[@TevyaSmolka]

lol indeed :)

[@brianlewolfhunt]

Punisher as a Hydra agent? Ok, I do not like Punisher, but even I call Bull. Everything about him speaks, "do what is necessary", especially if the authorities disagree. If he even suspects that anyone is in the wrong, he will turn on them. There is no way he would support this kind of thing.

[@originalindigodingo]

Ahuh. And the number of Nazi groups using the Punished logo on merch right now, what does that say? Like he said, real world context.

[@BlueHero45]

They did supply him with a ton of weapons, equipment and carte blanche to kill the criminals he wanted. He might have just being using them but it's never explored.

[@gtsgreatteacherscathach5550]

I don't like the Punisher as well and I too agree that him being a Hydra Agent is stupid. Even someone as crazy as the Punisher isn't stupid enough to fight for Nazis.

[@sholem_bond]

Nah, as long as he gets to kill people he deems as criminals/anti-social or undesirable, and has a simple mission, simple cause, and simple morality to adhere to, Punisher would totally be a fascist. He's already like a version of Rorschach if he were written by someone with 0 self-awareness or desire to deconstruct superheroes. He's the stereotypical vigilante "white cishet male with guns" power fantasy that people accuse other superheroes of being.

[@Fingleberrys]

@@gtsgreatteacherscathach5550 People forget how terrible of s person Frank Castle is. The only reason hes even labeled as an anti hero is cause he kills criminals. Hes a really shit human bejng

[@BronzeBoy520]

You know what I will admit really annoys me about this event? Captain America being blamed AFTER it for it. Except... this wasn’t his fault. This wasn’t Captain America but some even alt version. I know why stupid marvel civilians blame him but why do other heroes do so? Why does Captain America even feel guilty for something 100% not his fault?

[@YourUncleBenis]

Kind of reminds me of Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes where people were kind of suspicous of Cap after a Skrull used his likeness to try and convince everyone on Earth to submit to Skrull rule...Except the EMH version of it actually made that work.

[@donb7519]

because this was obviously a last minute rewrite and all the follow up stories were already written and being drawn probably

[@aros0018]

I can at least buy Steve feeling so guilty, even if he's not guilty at all, simply because it was his face and name that was used to cause so much pain and suffering. It's like Bruce Wayne feeling guilty over the deaths of parents even though rationally he and we know there's nothing he could have done. Because of how closely it hits him, Steve feels like he SHOULD have been able to do something, even if none of it is his fault.

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

King Kamina I mean...I hate this country, and I LOVE Captain America. A big reason I love him is because he’s BETTER than this country, and always has been. Hating America isn’t what caused Nick Spencer to write this dreck.

[@Sicod79]

Steve being blamed for acts of evil Steve was already handled by Mark Waid who had cap replaced by a Skrull (a Hydra Skrull...well sorta). So its actually fitting with what we know of Marvel continuity.

[@natsmith303]

If anything, HYDRA would be more likely to adopt Frank Castle's symbol, not the other way around.

[@originalindigodingo]

Search the Blue Lives Matter logo. They did.

[@natsmith303]

@@originalindigodingo To quote McBain, "That's the joke."

[@robo-nidai4236]

I get what they're trying to do with Hydra Cap. They're trying to make him a "good man fighting for the wrong side" kind of character. But there's a problem with this that they most likely never took into account: He's the leader of Hydra throughout this entire event! He isn't some lackey down below who's been lied to about the cause they fight for. He isn't a new recruit who isn't aware of the horrible things they've done. He's the one that's been taking charge of this whole operation. There's no way one gets to be in charge of an operation like that unless they genuinely believed in that kind of cause. Now someone might say "Well Hydra is just using Stevil to fulfill their ends and that he doesn't really have any power over the operations, merely placating the idea he does." Well if that's the case, then that just makes Stevil a really dumb leader for not utilizing his authorization over his own damn subordinates! Especially since he's running an entire country in the event!

[@tomhur1]

@@BigK13372 Yeah but at the time AIM were currently good guys...long story.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

@@BigK13372 I see it more like Stevil's "actually caring about his victims" should have been written as that actually making stevil scarier. like thanos' love for gamora in the infinity war film.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

@@tomhur1 and then became evil shortly after. and kinda disbanded while roberto da costa gave the leftovers to Toni Ho while he became Citizen X. shortly before rejoining the new mutants in Krakoa. Man. roberto da costa has had quite a ride since joining hickman's avengers in 2014

[@arashimiyazawa8165]

12:35 No, Quicksilver's been an unlikable jackass weirdly obsessed with his sister from his very first appearance. Though in the regular Marvel universe it was just the "twins share a close bond" cliche. The Ultimate versions stepped it up to them actually being romantically involved because incestuous siblings was worth +10 Edgy Points.

[@Rabbitlord108]

As a Fire Emblem fan. This reminds me of the fan theory that Erika & Ephram were in an incestuous relationship. An idea that got mentioned (In some way) in Fire Emblem Heroes.

[@Dangeresque300]

23:05-23:58 Linkara sounded like he was working through a LOT of pent up anger and frustration right there. Not that I blame him at all.

[@benwasserman8223]

Then he's really going to hate what's happening with America right now.

[@ForrestFox626]

Sure we'll be seeing that anger again next week.

[@perrykirby8777]

The snake themed villans are the Serpent Society

[@cafeterialoca]

Serpent Society is awesome. Diamondback is best member.

[@Mister-Thirteen]

Best Supervillain team. With Conan and Solmen Kane under their belts I'm sort of surprised they've never linked them to the Serpent Men of Robert E. Howard yet.

[@thetruewisegamer]

wait wasnt that the same one in that terrible ultimate power comic?

[@cafeterialoca]

@@thetruewisegamer Ultimate Universe ain't 616. I think that was called the Serpent Squad anyways.

[@thetruewisegamer]

@@cafeterialoca in my defense i really cant tell anymore since from looking at the comments and it seems hulk here is from the ultimate so i say at some level "is really my fault?".

[@ThanksHermione]

Quicksilver doesn't care who wins? His dad survived The Holocaust.

[@mariodude345]

yeah and the twins are both Romani a group that was genocided by the Nazis.

[@saagabragi6938]

@@mariodude345 *Romani and jewish. Their mother was romani and their father is Magneto.

[@CouncilofGeeks]

The epic “it’s the god damn Nazis fault!” rant is exactly the content I’m here for.

[@JetZV]

The people with Good Steve are almost definitely Sam and Bucky, since they're the two people that he's formally passed the Captain America title to at different points in time.

[@aisnota5192]

Yeah...... but Steve must have been like WTF when the real Bucky showed up after watching him die............. then again, it's Earth 616. Bet court cases have people using evil clones as alibis.

[@talk2myself315]

Just wanted to say that, though I agree with everything said here, I kept hearing "Pym-Tron" as "Pimp-Tron" and that made this graveyard shift so much better. :)

[@hectorbarrera8046]

Am I the only one who unironically loved Franken-Castle? The man rode a dragon while shooting a minigun at Samurai monster hunters and befriended a blind mole kid. Also he helped the monsters. He's a bro.

[@paulgibbon5991]

(fistbump) It's not just you. Frankencastle was FUN, something that the big events these days are resoundingly not. And unlike the angel arc, there was never any serious pretence that the character was forever changed and going in a bold new direction. He got restored to life at the end of the arc, and went back to fighting mobsters.

[@sarafontanini7051]

It's dumb and unfitting as hell, bt that doesn't mean it's bad : 3 and hey, at least he wasn't a nazi

[@richmcgee434]

If it wasn't for things like Franken-Castle and, well, most of the Silver Age it would be much harder to say "comics are weird" and really mean it. I heartily support the occasional bout of utter absurdity in comics, old or new. Maybe I'd feel differently if Flaming Carrot was still coming out regularly, but without it where am I supposed to get a good hit of the bizarre? :)

[@MrSafior]

It was the only time Punisher was readable.

[@hectorbarrera8046]

@@MrSafior I disagree. The Ennis run was pretty great... Up until he kept on shitting other heroes like Spidey, Daredevil, and especially Wolverine. I still liked it to a degree, but I'm not going to defend it when it was stupid/edgy

[@lorddrayvon1426]

"God, that clip is apt with the clones of Hitler." And the prize for the one sentence you never though you would ever hear goes to...

[@realafan888]

Your rage is giving Banner a run for his money, Linkara.

[@Dreadjaws]

I guess Carol's "It was my fault" speech came as a bit of an apology to the readers for how irrationally she acted in Civil War II. But yeah, it would have been better if she had popped that speech anywhere but in the middle of a Nazi invasion, where the real culprits are very palpable.

[@bthsr7113]

"GET RID OF THE NAZIS NOW, AND WE'LL DEAL WITH THE REST AFTER! I mean, that's basically the best I have for a political game plan right now.

[@DrZuluGaming]

Me: Nick Spencer, what do you have to say for this mistake? Nick: I brought Peter and MJ together. Me: ...what does this have to do with Secret Empire? Nick Spencer: Nothing. I just want to redeem myself. Me: Well, at least your run on Spiderman is better than Dan Slott's.

[@Zenn_Chan]

Everything they’re trying to do with making Steevil sympathetic really just screams of “we wanted to do Injustice” Forgetting the frickin subtitles of the injustice books: THAT THEY TOOK PLACE OVER THE COURSE OF YEARS

[@crossbones116]

Honestly Pymtron laying into everyone for being stupid selfish assholes is about the only decent part of this event. And Punisher becoming a Hydra fanboy just reeks of Spencer trying to have another shocking 'X is a Hydra agent' moment, no matter how little sense it made.

[@Mister-Thirteen]

I think Ultron/Pym was trying to highlight that Tony, Wanda and Stevil have inflicted their will upon the world merely because they thought they could make it better...Which is less about Nazis vs X and more to do with the fact that all forms of authoritarianism root themselves in a moral argument about the right to use their power on others for a greater good. Which is a solid point. Its more about highlighting how Tony and Wanda have acted like Nazis in pursuit of their goals. And it plays into what Baron and the other Hydra members keep grilling Steveil with, their ideal "better world". It becomes easy to surrender freedom and thusly responsibility in the name of a greater good because its presented to you as the right thing to do, hell its the core logic behind the needs of the many argument.

[@ricknuzzy]

"Get rid of the Nazis now and we'll work on everything else after!" In the aftermath of January 6th this is seriously the best advice.

[@connerharvey548]

No wonder Palpatine wanted Rey. If she went to the dark side, everyone in the resistance would join the first order because Rey said it's ok.

[@ntcnetwork9934]

You know i wasn’t too angry until he said “Scott Lang is the traitor”. Now I’m FURIOUS! 🤬

[@juliagoodwin3461]

...F**k. This. Comic.

[@jrcarter9175]

@Tyler Foster Don't speak that into existence!

[@RabblesTheBinx]

@Tyler Foster wouldn't be surprised. Marvel's events have gotten progressively worse since Civil War. OMD, OMIT, this... it just gets worse every time. That's why I just don't buy any Marvel books, anymore.

[@richmcgee434]

To be fair, being willing to do anything to protect his daughter is in-character for Scott. But a properly written Scott would have promptly faked his own death so that he could go rescue her himself - and he'd have succeeded. The guy's no slouch when it comes to getting out of tight spots, at least when he's not being sidelined in a team/crossover storyline.

[@ntcnetwork9934]

Rich McGee for sure!

[@michaeliv284]

I kinda wanna see Ultron fight Hydra, kidnap EVERYONE and force them to have a banquet. I can see him talk all nice-nice while making it clear that he can bring the hammer down on anyone and claim it was "bad manners" or something. He can even wear a sweater-vest or something

[@bthsr7113]

I agree, I feel like Frank would recognize that this isn't the cap he knows. Frank is a deeply flawed man, but some versions seem to recognize it, and given how Frank recently* chewed out some cop fanboys of his, this feels wrong. I think it would have been better if Frank was a little guy trapped in the New York bubble. That would honestly give him some interesting dilemmas given his world view. I'm not saying it would work, but it's better than blindly accepting the nazis and Stevil.

[@ZCid47]

When was the last time Linkara was so angry on camera? And if this pissed him off... how he reacted to HiC ...

[@donb7519]

i need to hear him tear that apart thats legitimately worse character assassination than secret empire

[@originalindigodingo]

Mmm, I dunno, I feel he may be slightly kinder to Heroes In Crisis. Say what you will about Heroes in Crisis, it involves nothing you can spin as pro-Nazi.

[@judeskater93]

ZCid47 it was either trouble number four I think that or the force awakens when he went on that tangent about the last Jedi not being the main focus in his review for the force awakens.

[@cui8789]

Cry For Justice and One More Day I think.

[@Pineappolis]

@Trevor Anthony He might be less shouty about Heroes in Crisis (same as the OP, I've not heard him rant quite like that in years) but he 100% won't be nicer. Some criticisms just better lend themselves to comically over-the-top shouting than others; it's not necessarily a good measurement of how angry he is about what he's criticising. Heroes in Crisis is going to get it with both barrels.

[@KainGerc]

Nope, Quicksilver HAS been all kind of various degrees of douchey throughout his history. (the less said about his relationship with his ex-wife Crystal and their daughter the better)

[@TMT66666]

Also that time he was evil for a while in the late 80s.

[@DarkApostleNoek]

Well his relationship with his daughter Luna is ok. There was a time yes she hated him but he didn't do anything personally to her, she didn't like actions he took. But did end up forgiving him once he realized how wrong the actions were. That said one thing I felt really weird of this event (which I didn't mind actually) was him ignoring her considering last time we saw her was in New Attilan. Cause she is Inhuman. Who Hydra are rounding up and putting into camps.

[@eamonndeane587]

@@DarkApostleNoek That and Magneto (the man who he thought was his father) was a Concentration Camp survivor.... Ick...

[@eamonndeane587]

And that is why I've always been more of a Crystal/ Human Torch shipper...

[@Ackbar96]

The Therapy Issue of Peter David's X-Factor even has Pietro admit he's a douche. He's got, in his words: "Pietro Maximoff Syndrome" - it's like he's waiting in line behind someone who's taking forever at the ATM, every single moment of every day.

[@EvilTurtleSlash]

I was tempted to bring this up during the first part but with there being more of Sharon's role as hostage girlfriend to Stevil, I kind of wonder if Spencer wanted to try and ape, as well as expand on that scene from the Justice League episode "A Better World" where Lois is more or less a hostage to Justice Lord Superman and they have an argument about the state of the world. Granted that was more about Lois' particular nature and views versus Supes' authoritarian regime and here Sharon is just being indignant and stewing.

[@bthsr7113]

Lois at least had the excuse of being held captive by someone she couldn't hurt, but in this case, no. She's a trained SHIELD agent, and Cap is way below Superman's power.

[@richmcgee434]

If it was an attempt to emulate that bit, it's certainly not a very good one.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

@@bthsr7113 at least they could have sharon say she isn't doing anything because "either doctor faustus put a trigger word to freeze her" or "if she moves, they kill an innocent"

[@sebastiankrant2738]

Plus, since it wasnt just "superman was always evil" one can actually understand her tolerating him and trying to appeal to him. Sure, she hated authoritarian superman, but she clearly knew how he became like that and she tried to convince him to stop that stuff. Not like she had many other options.

[@grantmoore8228]

16:00 actually there's a very good reason as to why Wakanda and the Black Panther won't give the cosmic cube fragment to Iron Man. Turns out that the cosmic cube can cure every type of cancer and Tony, being an American would just make it into a bomb. Thanks again Reginald Hudlin's run on Black Panther!

[@cray-seacoral]

The Ultron segment is the best part.

[@MattEldritchHorror]

Wouldn't it be more terrifying if Punisher became completely disillusioned with Captain America? Cap is his idol, the man he would never would hurt and the man he thinks is the pinnacle of heroism. But Cap became a leader of Hydra, he became a Neo-Nazi who sided with the fascists. In Frank's mind, this would be a breaking point that no one can really be a good guy; everyone will eventually fall and disappoint anyone who depended on them and if left unchecked, will become monsters. Frank breaks down knowing that he would have to be the one to kill Cap by any means necessary as long as his former hero dies before hurting more people. But that's not enough for him. He needs to vigilant in making sure the heroes "stay good". He's willing to spy on their loved ones if they can be used as a means to an end, if it means threatening their lives. Possible casualties? He'll want to avoid them, but if they deliberately get in the way of defending his targets, that will mean that these "heroes" corrupted them into martyrdom and its not wholly his fault if they get hurt. Young heroes like The Champions? He doesn't want to harm kids. But what if this is the best they'll ever be? Is it better to die an uncomplicated hero or live long enough to eventually be part of the problem? Can they change, or will drastic measures be needed to make them change? A Punisher that seems on the verge of giving up such a big part of his ideology and believing that no one can really be a hero, even if they try their hardest, can be a very dangerous threat to the greater Marvel Universe. He has nothing left to live for other than trying to make "The Punisher Kills The Marvel Universe" happen as close as possible. But killing himself won't happen, because Frank has become a symbol of corruption himself, he's become what the misinformed fanbase thinks of him; an unstoppable machine who thinks in black and white and will readily kill anyone who opposes him or doesn't live up to his ideals. PS - Yes, I know this sounds like it rips off Stain from MHA and Billy Butcher from The Boys.

[@spyrofan9681]

Linkara screaming "IT'S THE NAZIS FAULT!" Like he's the one person in a Chicken Boo cartoon who realises "HE'S A CHICKEN I TELLS YA, A GIANT CHICKEN!"

[@richmcgee434]

I would absolutely have watched a Chicken Boo episode where he was a Nazi Party official. Sadly even Animaniacs wasn't quite that ballsy. Also I suppose it would have been a little redundant, the Warner Brothers already did it pretty well here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gaSleGZqibh9gJY

[@kimifw58]

Or Dib trying to get people to see Zim's an evil alien.

[@JinxSanity]

Wow, I felt those frustrations at the end and felt like watching one of those Animes where the heroes are looked down upon and hated/blamed by everyone,.. except for the obvious villains who are the cause of everything bad!! I already grew tired years back of Marvel's "dumb civilians" who instantly turn on a dime upon any hero the minute they are label a mutant (which is no different than any regular hero) , but the fact that the population as a whole haven't rebelled against Hydra of all things just makes me see the Marvel Comic Universe as having the worse humanity if terrified mutants are widely persecuted but Hydra the evolution of Nazis is not and instead instantly worshipped (Seriously not even "church of humanity/Hellfire Club"-type groups to attack Hydra citizens??)

[@juliagoodwin3461]

Agreed, it kinda makes me want the bad guys to win. The stupid, selfish civilians deserve it.

[@benwasserman8223]

Have you seen modern day America? I think those reactions to evil making its presence known in the country are pretty damn accurate.

[@GeneralKenobi75]

@@benwasserman8223 It's how we got our current government unfortunately.

[@sarafontanini7051]

@@juliagoodwin3461 Marvel has the worst civillians, at least the majorty of the civilians in DC aren't fucking cowards and assholes

[@juliagoodwin3461]

Sara Fontanini Doesn’t help that the heroes will still save them. Yes I know it’s the right thing to do, but come on! These morons are never gonna learn!

[@blixer8384]

This comic book is a book about fascisms written by people who fundamentally don’t understand what fascism is or entails. Fascism rarely spreads due to the inherently strength of fascists but due to the failure of the populace and the state to oppose its spread. Nazism is the living embodiment of “evil succeeds when good men do nothing.” Strong effort to oppose fascism pays off, but if you let them fester they’re going to eventually take over any space they’re allowed into.

[@TevyaSmolka]

Also I really don’t like the idea of black window making the Champions into killers because that sounds really stupid and garbage.

[@CAMarino92]

Thankfully I stopped following Marvel for a long time, at least in the comics

[@ThatRandomEncounterGuy]

Black *Window* ???

[@TevyaSmolka]

That Random Encounter Guy yes

[@TevyaSmolka]

Darth_ Madara yeah that’s true

[@spawnfyre]

"that sounds really stupid and garbage" pretty much how I'd describe Secret Empire.

[@zachfense593]

I've never read this book but I feel a way to make it better would be to say that the warped reality was incomplete or made incorrectly. So people have parts of their old personalities and histories and those memories cause contradictions in their mind. That could be some explanation why Stevil still has some of classic Cap's personality.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

Agreed. especialy if it was said kobik was "broken". Also, make clear Stevil having Steve's noble personality actually makes him worse. like in Infinity war film when gamora started freaking out when the soul gem actually recognized thanos' love for her as a valid love. that isn't a "oh. he has feelings" moment where you sympathize with the villain. that is more a "he has feelings yet he is still willing to do this insanity?!" moment where you actually see him as scary for that

[@busterkuri]

Re: The Pymtron stuff, I think Spencer's greatest strength is the "heroes doing normal shit that feels weird" humor he brings to his stories. Pleasant Hill has a moment where Kraven puts together a picnic to capture Kobik and it's the best part of that crossover

[@PosthumanHeresy]

We need a series of What Ifs entirely focused around obvious solutions to this event. Like "What If The Immortal Hulk Was Present?" Just imagine if after Cap's speech to Hulk, rather than Savage fronting, out came Devil. Stevil: ripped in half instantly

[@deimosmasque885]

From what I understand. That is the Devil Hulk.

[@JackTheRipper4ever]

8:42 Okay... I normally never comment on older videos, because who cares? But I feel THIS part merits talking about. I'm a huge Punisher fan, and have been for years, even giving details explanations as to WHY he's a fantastic character when helping others with their writing. So, when I hear that these writers took FRANK CASTLE, a man who sees Captain America as the ideal we, as a freaking nation should strive towards, the guy who crushes, stabs, burns and shoots all forms of corrupt officials, drug lords, assassins, pimps, psychos, gangster, mafia men, terrorists, etc because our system fails to deal with them, and turned him into a NAZI- and yeah, no matter how much they try to rebrand, they're Nazis- it really pisses me off. Castle believes in Cap because of the good he's done, the hope he inspires, the sheer moral strength he exudes. All these things were accomplished as an American hero, and an American soldier. Even after being thawed out he kept being a great man, willing to stand alone against tyranny and oppression... the implication that FRANK CASTLE would blindly side with Hydra Cap is not only a gross takeaway from this but suggests two things about the writers: either they, a) Failed to understand WHY Castle respects him and turned him into a mindless fanboy. Or b) Are implying that the nation of Hydra/ Nazis is SO ideal, so morally correct and agreeable that not only would The Punisher NOT continue his normal crusade, but be on board with their cause. Aka, agree with the Nazi ideals. Either way it's a stupid, and frankly gross thing. Bad enough they used Cap for this (seriously, why not just magically give him a twin brother and go from there? It's a weak twist, but at least respects the standard set.) But to really try and convince any remotely intelligent reader that people would just BLINDLY follow him because he's Captain America is insulting as hell. So, thank you Linkara, for addressing this hot mess. Seriously, dude, from one comic fan to another, I NEEDED this video and that rant.

[@DonniedrakoE]

I love how the entire rant from pym ultron is like a meta rant on comics recently and how edgy big comic book events like this just make things worse. But this entire event basically does everything pym ultron talks about. Which makes the event even stranger.

[@originalindigodingo]

"You may be asking why Frank freaking Castle would join with Hydra?" Given the sort of people I have seen recently who wear the Punisher logo and love guns as much as the Punisher...no. No, I was not in any way wondering about that.

[@artisticcannibalism1350]

I had the exact same thought.

[@Darkrockmanbeyond]

But even Frank Castle hates those types of people, so it's still unbelievable

[@MetalB1985]

But Marvel showed multiple times, that the Punisher doesn't support or like those people, misinterpreting his "crusade". Yes, the Punisher is a hypocrite, but still one with a moral core.

[@genth3575]

Punisher thinks the best response to criminals and violence is to shoot them. Punisher thinks that him being a strong man with guns makes him a crusader. Idolates Captain America as a symbol of justice. Yeah I buy Frank Castle as Nazi. Because thats how Nazis recruit. They try to make you feel like a hero for your violence and anger.

[@GurrenPrime]

Well, his whole shtick is acting outside the law, so I guess it'd make more sense for him to be anti-authoritarian than pro-authoritarian. (side-note, I don't know much about Punisher other than the basics).

[@bojofindum]

Are we just going to ignore that Marvel has a villain organization called The Secret Empire? Like created by Jack Kirby? Charcoal of the Thunderbolts was a member?.... anyone? No? Just gonna use the name here because it kinda invokes Secret Invasion?

[@bojofindum]

Oh right... that story where the evil organization was The Secret Empire, the group my content was about... anyone... still no?

[@bojofindum]

Wonder how a group of cataracts could be created by someone and then appear in a story written by someone else? Suddenly the entire western comic canon imploded

[@bojofindum]

1) of course it's the sane group they have the same name, because it was updated or changed doesn't make it so. All incarnations of The Secret Empire are canonically linked. 2) the point you missed is that it's stupid to have an event book named after a group that already exists, and has appeared multiple times, and yet the story doesn't include them. It would be like if next summer's blockbuster crossover was called "Damage Control" and yet the construction company was nowhere to be seen 3) it was a joke, because this event has as much to do with The Secret Empire as it does with Secret Invasion, a story that shares a word in its title

[@bojofindum]

You clearly measure beyond 90°. Have fun living in boxes.

[@lukedalton]

@@alexandredesbiens-brassard9109 well the Secret Empire was a subsidiary of Hydra like AIM and THEM, so in some way is ok

[@GeneralKenobi75]

Hey, I got a good name for Hydra Steven Rogers. Crazy Steve!

[@jshadowhunter]

One serious lack this event had was the lack of "IMPERIOUS REX!!!!" cry.

[@Lucario5197]

The Pymtron scene kinda gives me the impression of a writer doing his best to make his opinion of Marvel known after years of frustration. Just me?

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

agreed. say what you want about spencer... but I agreed with everything he said. especially how later on Pym's soul gets eaten by a cosmic nomster without fanfare in the lead up to Infinity wars while his face is still stuck in Ultron's robot form. also ultron suffered a psychothic breakdown after realizing he might not be the real pym in dan slott's iron man and now is imprisioned.

[@saagabragi6938]

@@ianr.navahuber2195 Cosmic nomster?

[@Gundam-Fury]

Going to address something here so Hopefully Linkara doesnt have to later: He isnt ignoring the issue of the Civil Wars or how the characters are Imperfect, its just those imperfections dont have a real baring on the situation everyone is in. It is the Nazis fault here (or Hydra for anyone arguing the point personally I see both sides of the argument) With a full lead in you see how Hydra Cap moved pieces around the board, setting up the sheild to isolate the space heros but making it so it was Carol that introduced the idea and spear headed the project meaning that until the plan was launched nobody was connecting the Sheild to Cap. Also nobodys blaming themselve for the immediate mistakes that lead to this like implementing the sheild without considering this type of mis-use the closest we get (and I think it may be in tie ins) is some characters blaming themselves for putting too much trust in Cap, which to be fair I feel is an interesting idea which I hear the follow up to this approachs with a world that doesnt trust Cap or something like that.

[@benwasserman8223]

Bingo! A lot of the build up to Secret Empire saw Cap manipulate other characters to do things within SHIELD or the public sphere that would be beneficial to his plans later on. I get it might not be known to people who weren't reading the comics then, but everyone was really brutally duped. The replacement of Mariah Hill with him, elimination of allies, convincing Carol to work on the shield- people went along with this because he's Captain freaking America, the poster child of goodness. That's why the reveal of him being Hydra hurts so much- no one could have foreseen this because the idea of Cap being Hydra was the last outcome any Marvel character could have predicted.

[@GambeTama]

I'm actually really happy you wrote this, because it is honestly bugging me how much Linkara is just diving in with the "IT'S THE NAZI'S" bit. I do get the idea, since it's a universal fact that Nazi's are and will be one of the most iconic forces of evil in the modern/real world, but after the third or fourth time he cries that into the camera, it feels like he's telling the audience not to think about anything past the Nazi point, whether or not there is anything left to discuss on the matter. Heck, if he just points out like you did, that most of the stuff the heroes blame themselves for was inconsequential to the powers Cap exercised, then it completely nullifies the argument, because the questions of analysis are nullified due to how little they now matter. But instead, it almost comes off like he's saying every mistake these characters made, no matter the culpability, is tabled because Nazis are involved, and therefore suck up the blame like a duster of evil or something. It's more frustrating than anything, but it is easy-ish to see where the mentality is coming from. I just hope his big point in part 3 approaches this with that analytical mentality.

[@GeneralKenobi75]

@@GambeTama Except, right now, the heroes blaming themselves does nothing. The Nazis are the enemy here, they've been the ones manipulating everything. HYDRA Cap was the one who got the heroes pitted against each other. Yes, they share the blame, but it was part of a greater plot HYDRA had in the works for years it appears. The heroes need to suck it up and get their head in the game. If we've learned anything from Spiderman, it's nothing comes of just whining about "it's all my fault!"

[@GambeTama]

​@@GeneralKenobi75 I TOTALLY get that. It's a completely reasonably point to make, and in the scenario such as the one played out in this script, the only one that needs to be made. My gripe really was just that, in the context of this review as a whole, Linkara isn't making that point, and just saying "it's the Nazi's. All you're problems are just the Nazi's. Stop blaming yourselves, and blame the Nazi's." Please here me out; I am one of those fans Linkara talked about a few months back, the ones who don't have too much experience in comics, but gather knowledge through others dissecting, discussing, and reviewing them. Because of this, I went into this story with some knowledge of the Civil War events, a few references to Stevil, and a lot of tangential books that came about after the event, but discussed about it in past tense. So going into this review, my vague approximations included things such as: - Tony Stark reworked an entire national legal system to effectively turn superheroes into pseudo-National-Guard, which the government (or SHIELD) could move around as needed with almost complete autonomy, thus allowing for a tyrannical stunt to occur, because Tony wasn't really thinking the smartest thoughts at the time. - Captain Marvel had a penchant for brash, impulsive, authoritative, and otherwise brazen decisions (apparently a consequence of character assassination, but still apparent, nonetheless). This, in turn, led to situations such as the Civil War 2 event, and strained many relations between her, other heroes, and anyone affiliated with her. - A tremendous amount of infighting left the superhero community in shambles, with many dying, on the run from one another, or just retiring outright... and then dying. I was under the impression that "the system" was all that was keeping cooperation in any way at this time, and based on how Black panther was acting, apparently it wasn't so good anyways. The point here is that I went into this with the idea in mind that Hydra's rise to power came about in a way that was more organic and aligned with a real-world scenario. Captain America, the guy that everyone had trust in - no matter what - was put in charge of the superhero national defense initiative, one brought up as a result of intense internal political turmoil. The Hero community had become highly independent and tribalistic by that point, and everyone who mattered wanted to be left alone in their own little corners, and/or spend time with the newbies who liked them and would follow them. In the midst of a major invasion, Steve manages to rally the disgruntled heroes into action, and by his fake guidance, they all move into place, where he makes his big play, cementing Hydra's rise to power by eliminating the heroes - locking them in isolated kill-zones. A situation brought about because of poor cooperation and communication, and a power base that was centralized to the point where the one man was in charge and effectively commanding every individual directly and without question - because it seemed like a good idea at those times. And apparently, this interpretation of events was just flat out wrong. I can admit that. I admit that I just didn't know things well enough to see the actual flaws in the book, and was acting off of my half-filled understanding of events. My point, however, is that this whole interpretation was what I THOUGHT was the reason why the heroes were beating themselves up (Tony Stark apparently mind-wiped himself because he felt so guilty over everything he did in CW, for example), so I thought this was a series that was playing off of the current state of affairs at the time. But I wasn't corrected in any way by the video I was given. I was not told "this brow-beating is pointless because it was well-known by now that HYDRA was in control long after you could have done anything about it," or, "the things you blame yourselves for are fairly inconsequential, and didn't mean too much in HYDRA's plan." It instead was "blame the Nazi's. The Nazi's attacked, so everything wrong is the Nazi's doing. Stop blaming yourselves, and blame the Nazi's." Square this against my expectations going in, and hopefully you can see why I'm a tad frustrated. I'm coming at this from a more meta perspective, not a reading one, and Linkara usually does well at discussing his material from both sides, but here it feels somewhat intellectually dishonest, shutting down the conversation based on a rather flat premise. I am more than willing to have an in-depth conversation about this in the comment section (I in fact would look forward to hearing other people's perspectives on things and learning about the Marvel Universe), but I didn't come to these videos to specifically have these conversations in the comments, I came to be informed and entertained by the host in the video. Instead I feel as if I am being told not to think, or to just only think one way, and that just doesn't set right with me. Sorry for the long rant.

[@doubleasworkshop1692]

@@GambeTama pretty much, What you said. I had given up on marvel and dc since their characters practically don't grow and revert back to status quo every event. But this review just feels disingenuous. "Just blame the nazis" sounds just as much ear grating after 2 yells as the nazis saying, "the jews are to blame" before they even finish that sentence. It's one note, it doesn't offer insight and it lacks perspective. He brings up George W Bush saying let's be friends with AlQaeda but he seems to not care about the shitty abhorent decisions Bush made. The irony of the matter is that, the actor for Sauron, a character directly inspired from hitler, said that the dialogues from Sauron sounded like Bush. Not saying Alqaedas are misunderstood innocents. Just trying to emphasize the fact that Linkara's critic of blame the nazis every minute just rings hollow and depthless

[@SpyHunter89]

I expected another "Combine Harvester" sanity breakdown during your rant near the end. I understand if this comic's subject matter is too serious for one of thoes.

[@Cdr2002]

Hydra-Punisher is the perfect symbol of what the character has come to represent.

[@SammEater]

The worst part of events like this is how they derail any other comic you're reading to force those characters into the event itself. Nothing puts me out of Big Two comics more than forced crossovers.

[@Webshooters1]

Long story short: There was a graphic novel that came out around the time Age Of Ultron was released called Rage Of Ultron (real creative title right?) and in that story, Ultron had assimilated Titan and came to Earth and Hank Pym decided in order to defeat Ultron once and for all he decided to merge with him so to finally defeat him and floated around in space for awhile. Comics are weird.

[@daltonwilliams1723]

I really liked that story and thought the merging of pym and Ultron had great potential. ...but then marvel completely squandered it with him randomly dropping into other books with too phew appearances to have much relevance to anything. Such a shame, and I really hope Hank makes a return soon.

[@changvasejarik62]

Then infinity countdown happened. Yeah, for all the talk about comic book death being meaningless unless you’re uncle Ben or Martha Wayne. Now it’s gonna be comic book deader than death is meaningless.

[@richmcgee434]

@@gyga100 Agreed. Surprisingly decent story, especially how much I've come to hate Pym as time has gone by.

[@off-the-grounder568]

I actually like Rage of Ultron’s name. One question tho. Titan as in Thanos’s planet or Titan as in Jupiter’s moon?

[@LightZorel]

This comic's story line is uncomfortably relevant in all the wrong ways.

[@LightZorel]

@@marley7868 Mostly just the world's general slide to Authoritarianism as of late, but also the idea that people will just follow Cap because Cap is the one saying it regardless of logic.

[@paulgibbon5991]

@@marley7868 China is just as authoritarian as ever, and are now increasingly able to say "We've got the money, suck it up." whenever anyone mentions Hong Kong or Taiwan. Over in Russia, Putin's setting up shop as Supreme Leader and doing his best to drag everyone else into the same pit of cynicism and might-makes-right. And America has spent the last three and a half years showing its absolute ugliest side to the world, and there's actually a serious possibility that the president who oversaw all of that will not be cast out like an embarrassing stain come November. What the heck would be "that bad"?

[@MrSafior]

@@marley7868 And that why the world is such a shithole, because of people like you.

[@mediabaron2416]

Nick Spencer did give an interview where he tried to explain Punisher's reasons for joining Hydra. Apparently in the new world Hydra would create, there'd be no crime whatsoever, Frank would have his family back and he'd never have to worry about losing them again, etc. It'd be a lie to say there was no thought put into this whatsoever. But even I'll admit, out of all the characters, his reasoning is the indeed the weakest and his reveal is pretty much just a shock moment for the reader. It's no surprise that in his solo series that followed this, Punisher immediately went to war against Hydra.

[@BullseyeRey]

@@BigK13372 Which was weird since Mandarin was supposed to be dead at the time. I also find it hard to believe since Frank has lost to Shocker.

[@MrSafior]

@@BigK13372 Anything to please Winnie the poe.

[@rvawildcardwolf2843]

Cap (his hero) promising his heart's greatest desire would probably help an unstable guy like Castle finally fall to the dark side. But it's a coin flip that he'd actually listen.

[@JohnnyElRed]

Ah, yes. The attack on the underground resistance hideout... the Mount. You know, the Mount. The Mount that should no longer exist. To be fair, they do mention that the Mount was abandoned by the Pantheon. But what they seem to forget is that the reason they abandoned it... is because it ceased to be. Seriously. In the Incredible Hulk series, we saw it literally blew up from the inside. And in later numbers the Hulk even came up to check the rubble. And he found that not only the Mount was now only a bunch of rocks not even enough to form a pile, but an hologram from a member of the Pantheon, telling him that they have searched through the debree to scramble any still usable technology and materials. So the only thing left under those rocks, were more rocks. Also, how did the Underground knew where the Mount was? Because if it was from a SHIELD record, Hydra should also know from the begining. And the only two people that knew were it was located from previously staying there, were Rick Jones and the Hulk. One of them was imprisoned by Hydra, and the other was dead at the time. Also, speaking about the Hulk: shouldn't he have more of an emotional connection with this place? Because this was one of the few places Bruce Banner found happiness and camaradery. And the fact that the Hulk is being used as a mere heavy weapon, and that the Mount gets destroyed AGAIN, without any explanation to how or why was rebuilt, only to be abandoned, pisses me to no end. I hate when bits from continuity are rewritten for cheap drama. And I even would find it cool as a little reference, even while ignoring previous continuity, if it wasn't for the fact that Bruce Banner, the same Bruce Banner that was used as a cheap death on a previous event that gets constantly referenced here, is also here. And in no moment do they stop to mention what this place means to both him and the Hulk. In no moment they mention the shared history of the place and the character. No. It's just another "let's make the Hulk a tool for bad guys again for no reason". Gosh, I wonder how a masterpiece like Immortal Hulk could come out from the debris of these disasters.

[@BullseyeRey]

Immortal Hulk came out of Avengers No Surrender to be exact, though they used his resurrection here as another example of Hulk returning from death.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

@@BullseyeRey i forgot it was in no surrender that hulk's third death happened. but still, hulk got killed A LOT between 2016 and 2018

[@TheSpartan013]

This event sounds like a lame version of Superman: Red Son

[@djpegao]

At least Red Son had a clear idea of what it wanted to be.... This book however...

[@GeneralKenobi75]

With Red Son it worked better because, not only was Soviet Superman actually horrified when he learned all the things Stalin and the Soviet Union did and tried to be better(although failed), but they did not gloss over the fact that Soviet Superman himself is doing just as horrible things. Also the fact that this is an alternative universe helps, and that apart from Wonder Woman and Lois Lane there are really no good guys in Red Son.

[@PolarPhantom]

Can't believe Mark Millar did this whole idea better without resorting to needless edge just necessary edge.

[@MrSafior]

@@PolarPhantom Is even funnier when the animated adaption add more pointless death and violence.

[@1227CGanimated]

But Red Son is lame already with it's stupid time Paradox BS.

[@pious83]

12:40 About that.. He's actually _less_ douchy than he used to be.

[@thetruewisegamer]

How?

[@NarwhalEntertainment]

Not only would the box contain a bomb, but Namor would 100% give Stevil an "Imperius Rex" as it detonates.

[@earth_5496]

"Get rid of the Nazis now, and we'll work on everything else later!" -Linkara, 2020

[@JoeyfilmingTv]

I honestly would like this event better if they went all the way with Hydra Cap instead of making him so wishy washy. I also hate how little Namor and T'Challa have an impact considering how they are the only other leaders we see reacting. This should be a highly political book with a WWII style battle (Namor was in the freakin invaders for christ's sake!) Maybe getting all of the golden age heroes together alongside the younger generation and a coalition of the major governments and groups to take on Cap and Hydra. Would be a cool way to have fighting Nazis almost be a passing of the torch thing from the original veterans of WWII to the newer heroes, hence reinforcing the idea that fascism is always bad and fighting it never goes out of style.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

agreed. especially if they also made sam wilson an official captain america alongside steve rogers. sam being "the captian of people" dealing with the more political stuff and street level threats and rogers being "the captain superhero". the one captian america you call for more "superhero" esque stuff. it would have tied together alognside the "generations" mini event that was also semi tied to this event

[@TheLandofObscusion]

Yeah, while I have no interest in reading this storyline, I also had the feeling of "Why isn't this tying more into Cap's past with Hydra back in WWII?" as I watched these videos. Why ISN'T Namor helping lead, or at least give shelter to, those who are fighting back against Hydra, the literal organization Namor fought against in the war? In fact, from what I can tell, a tie-on shows the Human Torch & Toro actually going to Namor for asylum... And he imprisons them instead. Yes, two of the Invaders (one of which is the canonical killer of Hitler in Marvel continuity!) are kept out of this story completely by another member of the Invaders, just so the writers could depict how much of a jerk Namor can be, which is something that Marvel has driven into the ground so much by this point that it's coming out of the opposite side of the Earth! Instead of Tony Stark being the leader, Torch & Toro should have been leading the Underground with Tony being second-in-command (so that the overall plot could still be the same), because that's what the real Captain America would have done: Fought back against Hydra. Instead, Torch & Toro get thrown in Atlantean jail by someone who they thought was a friend & who simply conceded to Hydra. I think that alone says enough.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

@@TheLandofObscusion what did you expect from the people who kept heroic victor von doom/infamous iron man BANNed from this event. even though "hero victor von doom VS villain captain america" sounded like a mUST

[@couchalmark675]

I actually do really appreciate that there's a lot of the heroes realizing just how awful all these hero-versus-hero events have been and just how repugnant they've made Marvel comics. What I don't appreciate is that it does this by itself being a repugnant hero-versus-hero event, and as far as I know it hasn't changed anyone's behavior since then.

[@juliagoodwin3461]

I’m all for the idea... but it was done so badly, the potential was wasted. I hate this comic.

[@AubriGryphon]

"Deliver us--" "Finish it!" "FROM STEVIL!"

[@Dynaman21]

This is the thirty car pileup of comics. Spencer wanted to say so much, at the same damn time.

[@masterrance]

Not a huge fan of this book but the “blame ourselves” portion is commentary toward how much the heroes overlooked the issues that brought them to where they are. It’s not that they’re debating if they’re “worse than Nazis” but how they are responsible for allowing this regime to happen to begin with, especially since this was at a time where most Marvel events involved heroes fighting heroes. Ultron moment especially points out how the heroes were so busy fighting each other that they weren’t even noticing themselves being set up.

[@AT4W]

Except they're NOT "allowing it to happen." They fought against it. And Hydra took over with a massive invasion army and resources, with most of their heavy hitters unable to assist. That's one of the problems with trying to make this some kind of allegory - the heroes didn't "allow" anything. Unrelated bad crap happened to them, then a villain turned Captain America into a Nazi.

[@masterrance]

Linkara-AtopTheFourthWall Civil War 2 did show that they did actually ignore the issue with the visions of Miles Morales and some other details being showed through the Spencer’s run on Cap like why he is blindly given full military control. Not advocating this as a solid excuse since Marvel events usually do a better job at being self contained than this and someone randomly picking up Secret Empire wouldn’t assume this book to be a sequel to Civil War 2.

[@masterrance]

Just speaking for myself here, but my appreciation from this story comes from knowing Spencer’s political views and how this is “allegedly” an allegory for the current presidency or atleast a lesson of how dictators gain control through a democratic process. Steve basically pulled a Palpatine but the book is missing the Padme line to actually bring it full circle.

[@juliagoodwin9510]

I'm just sick of the characters blaming themselves or fighting each other all the damn time instead of going after the actual bad guys!

[@DarkLiger]

"Get rid of the Nazis now and we'll work on everything else after" add this to my list of favorite Linkara quotes.

[@cameronpearce5943]

Man how cool would it have been to have Punisher hunting down Nazis. Have him put a cap in Stevil’s (red) skull. Imagine the catharsis, of having and grim and gritty Punisher have to fight the corrupted symbol of goodness that is cap, somebody he looked up too for morality. Punisher isn’t a fantastic guy, but I kinda love the character dynamic of having the amoral edgy character have to fulfil the role of hero when opposing a fallen champion of good

[@MyMagnificentOctopus]

I'm not sure, you need to be a little clearer on who you think is to blame for Hydra taking over. I mean, you SEEM to be saying something about the Nazis being to blame, but do you think you could say it a little more clearly?

[@michaelkeenan2307]

As someone who was just getting into comics at the time and avoids event comics like a plague it's kind of interesting to see some of the events like Las Vegas getting destroyed and *redacted* when they have had affects on some of the comics I read. Also it's interesting that both this and the secret warriors tie-in have teen heroes being confronted the idea of torturing bad guys for information.

[@RosieTheRo]

i love this title card. that expression of sheer bafflement and confusion on linkara's face is exactly what i felt when i first saw the "hail hydra" panel making the rounds on twitter

[@AJUniverse]

I genuinely love ya, Linkara, you're literally a role model of mine, and I agree with you about the length and about how some of the main series should have been moved to tie ins, and that some of these ideas could have been better realized, but I disagree with you about a lot of this. Everyone going along with Stevil because they believe in him? The appropriation of Norse imagery to seem more powerful? Awkward family dinners between people who sympathize with authoritarianism and those who oppose it? The corruption of ideals (symbolized in the corruption of Cap and his history)? Those are all things that real neo-Nazis do today to gain power without the well-informed realizing what's happening. The whole event comes off as a metaphor for all of that stuff, meant to warn and educate. A very heavy-handed one, but still. Even the idea that only the real Cap can end things is important, as it says that only the ideals that America is supposed to stand for can supplant authoritarian ones. Now, I will say that the insistence from the beginning that Mjolnir was unaltered and that that was the real Cap, and how long it took to learn otherwise, was a major mistake, as it allowed real life neo-Nazis to use the imagery in this thing for their own purposes. That pisses me off.

[@thew0rdsmyth]

The ending seemed like it was changed to make it clear stevil was never Steve but if stevil was just a cackling baddie, they wouldnt have tried to sympathize him. They wanted him to be Steve and likely were going to split them or just reverse it.

[@BrandonCroker]

"The secret's inside." Anyone who gets that reference, you have my pity.

[@FNGLHR]

Hey that movie had Nazis too! Why are there so many connections to shitty media with Nazis in it?

[@sholem_bond]

speaking of media with badly-handled Nazis in it

[@kimifw58]

Foodfight?

[@JimmyC1994]

There's something about this storyline that screams "hey, Injustice: God's Among Us is popular just now so let's do our own version"

[@mr.sand7899]

Next year you have to do Civil War 2. It is really bad and character assassination for Carol Danvers.

[@bthsr7113]

Not until after he does the stupidity of the first Civil War.

[@patrickhammes1829]

Considering quicksilver is the child of a holocaust survivor, I kinda feel like that alone that should give him a reason to care which side wins

[@eamonndeane587]

At this point it had been retconned that him and the Scarlet Witch weren't Magneto's children....