Liu Bei's Death | Battle of Yiling Let's Talk Lore E05

[@aoishiro6622]

Like you said, Liu Bei even after Yiling showed determination and politic acuteness. By staying in Baidi, he can first serve as a rallying point for his scattered forces along with Jing people whether officials or officers wishing to rejoin Shu but also put pressure on Wu by his presence at their borders. As the SGZ said 孫權聞先主住白帝，甚懼，遣使請和。

[@DarkDragon5551669]

Liu Bei must have been in such terrible mental condition during that last year. Most of his companions are dead, devastatef defeat, knowing that his own son cant properly continue his legacy and seeing his life goal unrealized while succumbing to illness. Yet he still made some good decisions.

[@vinhny2406]

Wow I didn’t know Ma Chao die before the Yiling campaign, this really show Shu shortage of talented general at this moment in time.

[@myde8524]

Shu's highest military strength would be around Han Zhong Campaign i think? After this point, it's power starts to decline. And with the fewer area owned, the fewer talent might be born into. All we can do is press F for Shu.

[@bzoner16]

I doubt Ma Chao would've been much help. His military record wasn't exactly stellar and he would've been very much out of his element in Jing. It was the loss of Fa Zheng and Huang Zhong that hurt that most. Fa Zheng was their best tactician, and Huang Zhong was a Jing native on top of being a very capable commander.

[@wcsdiaries]

​@@bzoner16zhuge liang said the loss of ma chao was like losing an arm. He wouldve made a difference.

[@herbangm.naibaho5405]

@@wcsdiaries it was in the novel FYI

[@bzoner16]

Interesting how Wu's naval superiority didn't materialize in these instances. War is unpredictable. Had Wei's attacks been blunted more consistently, I wonder if Lu Xun would've gambled on trying to take Liu Bei and unite the south. I've always found the choice of Li Yan as the second regent very interesting. He flies under the radar a lot and many people only know him from his fatal moment of dishonesty in the fourth expedition, but Liu Bei made him *the* military authority of Shu on his deathbed as well as co-regent with Zhuge Liang. Even though he trusted Zhuge Liang enough to tell him that he may take the throne from his bloodline if necessary, he still found it necessary to have another personality on the level with him within the court and have somebody else lead the army. While it's likely that Li Yan probably wouldn't have been his first choice had more veteran officers been available, it is a very strong statement of trust.

[@SeriousTrivia]

regents are more political and Li Yan was one of the five who helped write the Shu Ke (book of law) for Shu Han after Liu Bei's initial conquest. So his status at least in the court is quite high even though he had not served Liu Bei for a long time or had the military experience to back it up.

[@onewowen]

Liu bei for all thing he does in life, he sure has a very good story a simple man who BS his way to become the emperor.

[@shinsenshogun900]

From Zhuojun to Yong'an, he had lived well with the hard times from the day he was raised in humble living and an astute education

[@VergeMP]

Liu Bei was one of my favorites, such a benevolent lord

[@Yacovo]

Poor Liu Bei, losing most of your friends and dying slowly instead on the battlefield. Wu then gets immediately wrecked by Wei. Niether of the two sides really won the battle of Yi Ling in the long run. Thanks for the video.

[@WildWombats]

The let's talk lore's are always great and I love them! (:

[@maidros9856]

Having a really bad day 🙁🙁 But nothing can cheer me up like a Serious Trivia Video so let's go.

[@betegarcia6766]

I do not understand why Cao Pi not attacked during the yiling campaign like Liu Ye suggested would not be more advantageous for him to attack in this period?

[@SeriousTrivia]

What if Liu Bei won, or what if Sun Quan suddenly decides to surrender directly to Liu Bei once under pressure from Cao Pi? Would it not just create a more monstrous Liu Bei under the banner of the Han which can rally even more supporters within Wei as well.

[@betegarcia6766]

I see that make sense thank you for the answer and probably would have been a risk move if had sucess could have been a chance for unification or in case failure could have been turned in another disaster for Wei just like Chibi and Hanzhong.

[@DeardropsRiho]

@@SeriousTrivia Shu was still by far the weakest kingdoms at this moment with 1 province against 3 for Wu. "Helping" (Cao Pi may have been also more successful in his campaign) Shu would more likely weakened Wu's position in Jing rather than have them being conquered by Shu.

[@SeriousTrivia]

Before the loss at Yiling, Liu Bei still had most of his veteran troops who are arguably the best in the land at that point (Qingzhou just left Cao Pi after Cao Cao's death). Like you are comfortably able to watch the two other enemies fight each other, so why interfere before you see which way the winds go.

[@tonys9397]

Rip Emperor Zhaolie 😢it was a wild ride. I know what ifs are pointless but I agree with you that attacking Wu wasn’t a crazy idea and had merit to it but I do think Liu Bei Should not have been the one to lead the campaign and instead appointed someone like Sun Quan appointed Lu Xun the issue is who with the massive talemt drain Shu was having. Imho Huang Quan should have been the one to lead with Wu Ban and Liao Hua as his seconds even if he too could not overcome Lu Xun I doubt he would have suffered such a heavy defeat.

[@Sp4mMe]

I assume I get the "no deed" bit, I don't really understand the "no sin" part of the "parenting advise"? Small sins I'd assume would be, I don't know, a small lie, maybe stealing something not particularly valuable, that sort of thing; is he telling his son to do these things? Or is it meant to be some sort of "even if it's small it's still a sin" line?

[@zhiphius]

Liu bei is basically saying that Sins should never be committed. Even if one think the sin is so small it doesn't matter, one should still not committ that sin.

[@bzoner16]

​@@zhiphius Much like the man himself, there's a lot of ambiguity within that quote. Was he saying it in cognizance of the sins he had committed and tolerated in his life as a warlord and asking Liu Shan to be better? Or did he truly believe his life to have been fully just and that his son should follow his example?

[@historian252]

Well Liu Bei clearly told Liu Shan not to follow his example and to be a better man and leader.

[@gggmmm7204]

Rip liu bei.

[@lingbingzheng8127]

“His Late Majesty was taken away from us before he could complete his life’s work to restore the Han; and of today, the Realm divides in Three Kingdoms”

[@herbangm.naibaho5405]

@@lingbingzheng8127 whos line is this? what movie?

[@lingbingzheng8127]

@@herbangm.naibaho5405 It’s the beginning line of Zhuge Liang’s 出师表 for the Northern Expedition

[@herbangm.naibaho5405]

@@lingbingzheng8127 from the novel? OK ty then

[@jayanthkn7056]

Hi ST. How large was the Shu Han army? I'm talking about including the garrison forces left behind plus the 50,000 men Liu Bei had gathered for his war. And on the same note, how large were the Wei and Wu armies?

[@SeriousTrivia]

No one kept these records since you would always just draft during times of war. “Professional soldiers” was not a thing

[@jayanthkn7056]

@@SeriousTrivia so troops would be released from service once the campaign concluded? Surely there had to be a permanent standing force in peacetime atleast. Like some elite units or dedicated troops to guard important locations?

[@SeriousTrivia]

Troops had to go back to farm. No one were professional soldiers. Even standing garrisons were rotation from the farms. You can check out the taxation lore special to see how conscription rotations worked

[@ericfirmansyah9669]

Just curious, who actually owned Guangling comandery? Wu kingdom or Wei kingdom? The map in minute 5.39 of this video show Guangling totally under Wei, but I have seen difference map show it is under Wu. I have read somehere that Guangling Comandery was devided north and south in the Three Kingdoms Era. Southern Guangling belonged to Wu, its capital was Guangling county, today Yangzhou city, while Northern Guangling belonged to Wei, and its capital was Huaiyin county, today Huaiyin District, Huai'an.

[@SeriousTrivia]

it was split

[@ericfirmansyah9669]

@@SeriousTrivia thank you

[@yingzheng8434]

Damn, cao pi southern campaign is so coordinated?

[@yingzheng8434]

Where to read this campaignm

[@lingbingzheng8127]

Is there anything regarding the Yong’an Entrustment?

[@SeriousTrivia]

as in his entrustment of Liu Shan to Zhuge Liang?

[@lingbingzheng8127]

@@SeriousTrivia I guess that answers my question.

[@maidros9856]

Do you think the outcome of Yiling would have been different if Zhuge Liang was there?

[@SeriousTrivia]

Perhaps. Liu Bei would also need to have some patience which is hard to gauge

[@maidros9856]

@@SeriousTriviaYeah, though I think Zhuge Liang would have predicted the fire attack, but I bet his strategy would be retreat which Liu Bei wouldn't have agreed with.

[@bzoner16]

Zhuge Liang himself actually had something to say about that: *“if Fǎ Xiàozhí were still here, then he would have been able to hold back our ruler, and have him not go east, but even if we had gone east, then it certainly would not have been this much of a disaster.”* It seems that Zhuge Liang thought that the only person who could've stopped Liu Bei was Fa Zheng. It makes a lot of sense. Fa Zheng was well known as a highly vindictive person, but he was also capable of biding his time. He may have been able to speak to Liu Bei's passions in a way that no one else could. Add onto that that his great contribution to the triumph in Hanzhong, and Liu Bei may have just had more faith in him than anyone else at that point. Additionally, that campaign proved Fa Zheng's tactical abilities. While Zhuge Liang had been with Liu Bei for longer, he had mainly been in the back lines, overseeing logistics and administration, and wasn't as versed in frontline affairs.

[@maidros9856]

@@bzoner16 Yes, all that Zhuge Liang could have done was probably an earlier retreat.

[@orirotem2298]

Liu bei 😭

[@georges9694]

Hello ST,i would like to ask ur opinion about this Is it a waste to not make Zhao Yun a General for Yiling campaign? or at least making him a Liutenant instead garrisoning in Jiangzhou(can u tell me the benefit of garrisoning his army at Jiangzhou),because from what i see when he assisted Huang Zhong in the Han River battle he had a good decision making on what to do and what not. Too bad the only thing we know why he was included to 5 Tiger General group was because his position and not his Battle Career unlike Zhang Fei,Huang Zhong and Guan Yu

[@SeriousTrivia]

Zhao Yun did plenty during the Changban escape and campaign in the Yi Province to deserve it. No men can really offset the terrain, weather, and fire conditions of Yiling

[@shinsenshogun900]

If Wu had been distancing away from their Cao Wei masters, when does Sun Shao take up his tenure as the 1st royal chancellor of Sun Wu?

[@SeriousTrivia]

After Zhuge Ke dies. Also all of that is after Sun Quan dies of old age. Sun Quan hasn’t even become an emperor yet at this point. You are way too early

[@shinsenshogun900]

@@SeriousTrivia holup... Maybe you may have been mistaking another position for an office that Zhang Zhao was denied of. And more specifically the office of Prime Minister that Sun Quan made along with proclaiming the rivalling Eastern Wu later just in the later 220s CE, which is what I've be referring to without any intent to misinform ourselves. How about Gu Yong, Zhang Wen (of Wu), and Lu Xun?

[@SeriousTrivia]

I misread it for Shao for Hao! Sun Shao became prime minister when Cao Pi gave Sun Quan his 吴王 title, so just at the start of 222.

[@alanfate09]

What is the estimate lose for both side?

[@SeriousTrivia]

not much for Wu. Twenty to thirty thousand in terms on the Shu side (casualties and surrendered units combined)

[@briandinh9169]

Why didn't Lu Xun storm Baidi and kill the sandle weaver?

[@SeriousTrivia]

Geographically, Baidi is really hard to assault. Also Cao Pi launched his attack.

[@joe718gt4]

They want LV not LB

[@lingbingzheng8127]

What type of impact did Liu Bei have on China as a whole?

[@SeriousTrivia]

There is no way to really answer a question this open ended

[@lingbingzheng8127]

@@SeriousTrivia Historically, did he leave a mark on China? Or is the fact that he left the world with only the lands of the isolated BaShu couldn’t really have done anything?

[@SeriousTrivia]

The fact that you know his name makes him the top 0.0001% of all people who lived during Chinese history…so what do you think

[@lingbingzheng8127]

I’m curious, Master Trivia, was Chu Shi Biao a real thing in history?

[@SeriousTrivia]

Yep

[@lingbingzheng8127]

@@SeriousTrivia Then, is the part where it states Zhuge Liang was visited by Liu Bei three times actual?

[@SeriousTrivia]

Yes Liu Bei’s three visits was a historical event. The details of the visits in the novel is made up by LGZ but the three visit itself to invite Zhuge Liang to join Liu Bei was historical

[@jayanthkn7056]

Hi ST, what happened to Huang Quan and his army after they surrendered to Wei? Employed? Imprisoned? Released? Executed?

[@SeriousTrivia]

Employed! Huang Quan continued to have a career in the Wei court

[@jayanthkn7056]

@@SeriousTrivia even the 10,000 troops?!

[@SeriousTrivia]

@@jayanthkn7056 they would just resettle, maybe join one of the tuntian farms. Population was always welcomed

[@mustafacalkap26]

@@SeriousTrivia what happens to their families in liu bei's territory. I know there is no way to know what happened exactly but do you have any guesses?

[@tonys9397]

@@mustafacalkap26I believe that many urge liu bei to execute them but he didn’t and his Son Huang Chong would serve the Dynasty and eventually die defending it at mianzhu against Deng Ai

[@MCorpReview]

Cao pi 🕵️‍♀️ attacked his own vassal. So dishonorable!!! Cao cao ghost 👻 yeah he’s a good 😊 kid 👦 Who’s fa zheng? Never heard. Since the kid is now emperor, is cao ren like some kinda imperial uncle?

[@SeriousTrivia]

Fa Zheng is the one who swapped to Liu Bei from Liu Zhang during the conquest of the Yi Province. And yes Cao Ren is now imperial uncle

[@lingbingzheng8127]

@@SeriousTrivia 曹皇叔XDDD

[@Tobbs96]

"No sin is too small to commit, and no deed is too small to forgo." I don't really understand the meaning of this saying. You said this has to do with parenting?

[@SeriousTrivia]

it is basically Liu Bei telling Liu Shan to be a good person. Don't commit a sin just because it is a small sin and don't pass up on a chance to help someone just because it is only a small gesture.

[@Tobbs96]

@@SeriousTrivia That makes sense, thanks.

[@Tobbs96]

@@SeriousTrivia History aside, you've ended up being a pretty good window into Chinese culture as well :)

[@LECityLECLEC]

Don’t do a sin Just because a sin is small, dont not do a good deed just because the good deed is small.

[@caocalo2485]

❤

[@zeroo0186]

No lu bu today 🤔 😢

[@SeriousTrivia]

three episodes a week (wed, thu, fri) at 3 PM EST

[@jamesthach2504]

Hey Serious Trivia, 1.The one million dollar question do you think Zhuge Liang should have taken the throne intend of Liu Shan? Adou turn out to be a self-indulgent buffoon that spent most of his time wasting his treachery's money and associating with corrupt officials and eunuchs like Huang Hao and the only smart move he ever did was he surrender to Deng Ai without a fight nothing more. 2. Was the real Li Yan like Littlefinger from Game of Thrones? The 2010 show plus The Advisors Alliance made him a cunning, Machiavellian, unpredictable, deceitful, and ruthless opportunist. And I love the 2010 actor (Deng Liming) He was capable of giving Li Yan a seemingly friendly face with a friendly smile - but his eyes don't smile when his mouth does and give me the feeling underneath his fatherly-mask, he is a cold sociopath who hungers for power over others basically for its own sake. 3 How long did the second Shu-Wu alliance lasted compare to the first historically?

[@SeriousTrivia]

First Liu Shan didn’t turn out to be a self-indulgent buffoon until after he surrendered to Wei. Second, Li Yan was quite a capable general/official but had a mishap with supply logistics that essentially ended his career. Seems weird to compare him to a low born, ladder climbing, snake. And lastly the second Shu Wu alliance would last until both would get destroyed by Wei/Jin

[@jamesthach2504]

Interesting.

[@shinsenshogun900]

Alliance over when Luo Xian does his duty in Yong'an

[@Piotrus2019]

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