Lore Theory : Did Janeway Genocide the Borg?

[@trippsmythoftheaurigancoal8155]

I agree with the editor, the Anti-Treker is Pooh...

[@LoreReloaded]

I shall pin this comment. - Jay

[@trippsmythoftheaurigancoal8155]

Please do... We Mid-Western boys must stick together & I think Anti-Treker is a giant Trekkie...

[@FancyGeeks]

That editor sure is attractive.

[@retluoc]

I agree with everything Lore said...they're not gone, they're never gone. But it was a HUGE hit, but they will adapt :) Oh and I also agree with the "inside the sphere" theory...back in 2001, I replayed that episode over and over, and that was the best I could figure. I think their hull armor still had enough power to absorb the transphasic torpedo blast from inside.

[@intrepidmind5264]

Hmm, hard to say... the Queens seem to be basically genetic clones, and each is giving their own unimatrix directives. It wouldn't make sense that you would have a queen handing down directives to another queen's unimatrix. But since this is unimatrix one, this would be the first, and most likely the bulk of the Borg fleet. As for the hierarchy of the Borg collective, and this being the first unimatrix, that could very well mean, that this is the first queen, and possibly even the queen of queens, giving directives to all the other queens throughout the collective. So the virus could have been filtered to the entire collective but perhaps not as fast acting as the initial infection that destroyed unimatrix one.

[@RJStockton]

Last time I was this early, the Borg had only managed to assimilate a handful of systems.

[@LoreReloaded]

I get the reference!

[@owellwellwell2418]

The vadwarr should have done more back in there day.

[@JEPeters78]

Nice pull

[@bobgunner3086]

I wonder what their first few assimilations looked like? Probably not the smooth running process it is today. More brutal perhaps? Or was it more of an aggressive recruitment process? "Hey we have free coke and chips in each alcove .. you don't have to spend any of your credits 'cause its free. And every friday is casual day ... just wear whatever eye piece you want!"

[@IGLXenix]

My personal head cannon of the Borg are... (whether its true or now doesn't matter, it's my head cannon.) When we first meet the Borg in Q Who, they had no queen, they were just the collective, that was at the time when they were at their most dangerous but also their most passive. When they assimilated Picard in Best of Both Worlds, something happened to them in the delta quadrant which made them try and adapt by creating the Borg Queen, not just a voice for the collective but also, something to come up with idea's the collective couldn't come up with. i.e creating Locutus of Borg or time travel. This queen became their leader whether intentionally or unintentionally, this changed the Borg a lot, making them less dangerous for some and more to others. After the Queen dies in Voyager's finale, the Borg reverted back to their previous state becoming how we saw them in Q Who. The Borg is still vary much alive, but now back at their most dangerous point because... they don't have a queen to make mistakes anymore. In any case. This is just my head cannon/fan theory... Thanks.

[@TheHaviocdarkmoon]

IGL Xenix this is plodsable before but that depends on how ingrained the concept of the queen is in the borg as a whole they may go back to the old way eventually but it would still take for them to adapt even if there Borg .

[@aragos32727]

In first contact she reminded Picard that he heard her.

[@yoshi6236]

imo this is a good theory

[@IGLXenix]

aragos32727 That's way I said, the queen came in sometime between the first encounter in Q who and Picard assimilation of Best of Both Worlds

[@michael719]

@@aragos32727 I always assumed she was manipulating Picard and she wasn't always there

[@asvarien]

Never even occured to me that the borg might have been destroyed in Endgame, no reason why they would have been. Unless you destroy all borg everywhere simultaneously they'll always exist. Considering how adaptable the borg are I doubt very much that the entire collective could be destroyed by a single "virus".

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

They are just immensively impressed by the destructive force of Federation technology and decided that an attempt of assimilation is not worth the cost. Moving their focus somewhere else, regrowing lost parts, getting even bigger and then coming back.

[@22steve5150]

I was thinking that what's left of them might decide that the best adaptation would be for them to scrap the hive mind and regain individuality, both as a defense against further viral attacks (if modern networked tech has taught us anything, it's that the very nature of comms networks makes it impossible to prevent attacks that use the network to spread) as they would now been seen as far and away the most dangerous method of attack, and they might similarly see the ultra-individualist Federation who decimated their empire and who also had to deal with species 8472 for them, as superior because of the ingenuity of individuality vs the adaptation of the hive mind. Of course if they made that choice, the regained individuality will mean former drones will all have different wants, desires, and alliegences, so they won't really be Borg anymore, they will be a society (or likely multiple societies) of former drones trying to found new civilizations, plus a lot of former drones looking to rejoin the civilizations they originally came from (or re-establish civilizations that the borg had completely assimilated). This could be a very good thing but there could also be stark consequences and chaos in the Delta quadrant because of this, as every civilization left in the quadrant will likely take on their own former drones and much like the tech expertise that seven of nine was able to give to voyager, the civilizations of the Delta quadrant will expand their technical abilities very quickly with the help of their returned citizens who should all have similar high tech knowledge. That could lead to arms races, wars, or who knows what else among the remaining factions in the quadrant, particularly with likely hundreds, if not thousands of former borg habitable worlds to lay claim to, terraform, and re-colonize.

[@TheDjbz]

Since virus Icheb was infected with and Hugh’s restored individuality didn’t spread past one cube each. I’d say that the virus in Endgame only spread through that unimatrix and only because Admiral Janeway was assimilated from right in the middle (by either the queen herself or one of her closest drones) The other ones should be perfectly fine.

[@billkeithchannel]

I've never considered the Borg in the Alpha Quadrant to be in the same consciousness as the ones in the Delta Quadrant. Think of it like bees or ants leaving to start their own colony.

[@scottmantooth8785]

i'm still convinced that the creation of the borg are the fault of Wesley Crusher and his experiments with nanites...they were able to adapt and replicate very quickly and used Data as a means of communication and in so doing were able to learn that the bipedal form was an effective means of mobility....it is easy to assume that they also developed space time dilation technology in order to accelerate their development....Thank's a lot Wesley

[@svenzo1199]

In my mind any time a Borg Queen dies, she is replaced by a selected drone with telepathic abilities and high inteligence and that there is only one Queen at a time.

[@aletheamiller3164]

But where did she come from

[@RandallJamesPeterson]

@@aletheamiller3164 , I imagine the Borg queen is selected in a similar method as the queen in a bee hive. The only difference is that any lone Borg can assimilate enough resources to eventually grow into a collective/cube. The Queen doesn't occur until there is a large enough collective to warrant it. The series 'Picard' does address the creation process of the Queen. In a normal situation the Queen host probably has a rigorous selection process. Telepathy isn't a requirement, but it would be a perk.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

@@aletheamiller3164 From Species 186

[@BadGamer-]

Why do you presume her intelligence is actually attached to that body at all?

[@BadGamer-]

@@RandallJamesPeterson "The series 'Picard' does address the creation process of the Queen. " Everything from NuTrek is 'non-cannon' for anyone who cares about the IP and good writing.....

[@DiscoRaptor]

If, as we take it from Best of Both Worlds, a Borg cube is still functional with 75% disabled or destroyed, it's ludicrous to think that the entire Collective would have no more redundancy and be able to be wiped out by a single virus. Borg can be disconnected by the Collective, so there's no reason to think that as a virus is seen to be spreading infected ships, drones, nodes, etc. wouldn't be isolated to stop the spread. I think the devastation seen in Voyager is an immediate "area of effect" and that the Collective as a whole would be largely unaffected, given the sheer vastness of their space and how many Borg inhabit it. Even with how the virus is transmitted, it couldn't reach every Borg at the same time, and if you can't kill the entire Collective in one move, then you can't destroy the Borg.

[@peoplez129]

The problem is that the borg queen managed all of this. With her dead, the collective is simply a body of disorganized automatons running on basic programming. Which means they have no thinking in order to defend against such a pathogen that directly affects their ability to communicate and function while using their own technology against them. While borg drones can operate independently from the collective, they also seek to regain contact with the collective. If they could they regain contact with some still functioning transceiver nodes, they would be infected with the pathogen even if they weren't initially infected. Out of sheer random possibility, there may be borg who weren't infected and who are stranded in places that never regain contact....but at that point they aren't a huge threat. They may try to rebuild the collective through assimilation, but they would also still be pretty mindless, and more importantly, would also still be susceptible to the same pathogen. In reality, the borg need a queen to function fully. They need an individual to manage resources, make critical decisions, be able to oversee all the resources at their disposal, how best to allocate them, etc. But one big crutch is the fact that these drones don't have individuality, so they really can't make these decisions. A borg queen is also a unique thing. They can't just create another borg queen. Like many things with our way of life and technology, it relies on things that came before it to build it up. For example, if we raised humans in the wild....they wouldn't know what a wheel is, or really have language, or even really know how to cook their food. And since we are a species who relies on cooking food to keep pathogens away, any humans born without this knowledge and technology, would likely not survive very long. And let's keep in mind, that while borg do have stored knowledge, they don't have ALL the knowledge that was at the collectives disposal. So in that regard, cut off borg would be even more crippled. And if they didn't build their numbers up soon, they likely would just die from lack of maintenance. As we know, borg have implants that simply can't be repaired, they actually need to be fully replaced with new parts. Without access to those new parts, or the knowledge on how to create them, they would die off. As we saw in a few episodes, after a while of being disconnected, the borg can regain their original identities, which again causes problems for a resurgence of the borg. So any remaining borg would either break down from lack of proper maintenance or would become individuals again. Worst case scenario, it would take the borg hundreds if not thousands of years to recuperate, but I doubt they could. They need a queen, and that queen needs to be an individual who can operate without being a drone, who believes in the borgs goals. The original creators the borg originated from, were the reason the borg worked. And given them vs the rest of the galaxy, most borg leftovers that try to rebuild would be destroyed as they were encountered. A borg cube is strong because of its vast size and technology. A few isolated borg, not soo much. In fact, we saw in ENT that even though a few borg were able to give the early federation a run for their money, ultimately they were overcome.

[@talyn3932]

@@peoplez129 I agree. However, this was from Borg Central or Unimatix 01, chances are it was a quick path to all other unimatrixes and was specifically done there to maximize chaos and damage.

[@Werrf1]

So...and this is totally speculation, to be clear...I always got the impression that the Borg were not quite as singular as they liked to imagine they were. Different groups of Borg encountered at different times have acted quite differently. The first cube that the _Enterprise_ encountered was basically uninterested in biological lifeforms. They wanted to assimilate the Federation's technology. Biological assimilation didn't show up until Best of Both Worlds, when it was presented as a new and radical course. Later, it turns out that the Borg are entirely based around assimilation. The very notion of a Borg queen would have been inconceivable to BoBW Borg; for First Contact and Voyager Borg, it was standard procedure. Now, of course, this is because of changes in the concept of the species as the stories were written, but I like to imagine that despite their efforts at remaining synchronised, the Borg tended to drift when they were apart, with different ships or sectors coming to different decisions, having different priorities...acting as individuals within the larger whole. When they met up, they'd try to synchronise again, but there would inevitably be changes and drift over interstellar distances.

[@mdredheadguy1979]

Now that is a very interesting idea!

[@BadGamer-]

Given the voyager episodes where there are localized collectives shown (both with 7 and chakotay), and it explicitly states that cubes get disconnected from the main network with at least some modicum of frequency, its probable that localized variation occurs and results in factional conflict within the greater collective. My view is actually that the queen is an emergent individual within the collective who is not absolute ruler but rather able to influence and exploit the collective thanks to a "mutation" in her for of assimilation, just another one of the factions that has formed over the eons. It would also fit the actual known history of the borg if my supposition is correct.

[@Phucough3]

I also hate the Borg queen. It made them much less scary, almost trite.

[@hakusuna]

Phucough3 dude its true. The Borg are literally a force of technological aggression. A queen makes it seem more diabolical. But now scary. I agree with the Trite.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

Phucough3 I believe the Queen is just a glitch in the Collective that appeared when the Borg tried to make modifications to it. And Janeway basically fixed it when she destroyed the Unicomplex.

[@Benjamin1986980]

the problem with the Borg from a storytelling perspective is that you have no individuals to fight. They are more force of nature villains. This is why you continuously have new Borg leaders come up. First Picard, then Lor, and finally they settled on the queen as a consistent individual that the characters could interact with. while it does undermine the existential threat that the Borg represent, they would not work as consistent villains without a face behind them.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

@@Benjamin1986980 In that case it would be better to not use them as consistent villains.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

@Brad B. Not having this human touch is what made the Borg special. If the show needed a more conventional villain, they could have just put a huge evil star empire in Voyager's way. Like remember those guys from Dragon's Teeth who could use subspace corridors? Just say they had cryostasis bunkers hidden everywhere and while Voyager was traveling, they are taking over the Delta Quadrant around them. The Queen does not add to the Borg, it subtracts from them.

[@thatotherguy27]

We've seen what happens when a group of borg are separated from the collective a few times - their abilities seem partly based on the number of "adult" borg able to form a smaller collective with each other. An undamaged, fully staffed borg cube post-endgame would still be a force to be reckoned with. However, there would probably be pockets and smaller groups of increasing weirdness without the overall collective keeping things homogeneous - things like Lore's group of borg sycophants, 7 of 9's little hard-wired collective, the misfit ship of borg children, and maybe somewhere a kitten teaching a robot how to love.

[@Game...007]

Also Voyager just destroyed one of the six or seven "transwarp stations".

[@barrybend7189]

Game 007 and one queen ship.

[@kerosoldier]

Tuvok also stated that the entire transwarp network was destroyed

[@IronWarhorsesFun]

ya and the Sphere followed them anyway.

[@simonwinn8757]

kerosoldier how would he know, he is just using the limited amount of data to come to that conclusion.

[@kerosoldier]

Simon Winn he had the data from the sensors

[@JasonDitz]

I've always liked the Beta Canon theory that the Borg are basically inevitable, and that there have been several iterations of Borg-like cybernetic forces cropping up throughout history. That makes more sense to me than them using their time machine every once in awhile in one-off schemes and then just dropping the strategy if it fails the first time.

[@dikayevertear3509]

There is a point that needs to be addressed. In an earlier episode of Voyager, Seven of Nine did mention that even if a drone died their consciences and memories would remain with the collective. So one could easily argue that the queen could just clone a new body, upload her memories into said body, and start again. Take what I said with a grain of salt. Because in the episode of Unimetrix zero, people would disappear when their bodies are destroyed. Indicating they were eliminated from the collective.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

It that case it basically destroyed their part that experienced individuality. Something the Collective doesn't want. Even Hugh brought enough trouble that the Borg went as far and assimilate Picard into Locutus as a "spokesperson" I guess the Queen came from the same "defect"

[@benevolenthighwayman882]

It is possible that Borg drones are told that so that they will believe in a sort of afterlife, making it easier to maintain assimilation.

[@owellwellwell2418]

However those people being eliminated were probably removed on purpose as they were gaining individuality.

[@owellwellwell2418]

@@benevolenthighwayman882 there not told anything they are just merged with the one conciousness. They arnt a person with ideals or thoughts every single drone is one conciousness.

[@darksamurai6685]

I like to think of the Borg Queen as a T-800 model from the terminator, in short, assembly line, i'm just speculating of course.

[@codelicious6590]

The Borg were birthed when McCoy developed "nanobots" in an old episode, they released them into space and they went on to become one of Starfleet's most formidable foes.

[@talyn3932]

In Canon, the Borg are at least 800 years old. the Vaudwuar encountered them before they slept in 1484. There is no possible way that McCoy developed them... none.

[@codelicious6590]

@@talyn3932 None? I dont know about that- the Star Trek universe is full of time paradox and causal probability shifts. In fact, in an imaginary world where Literally anything one can imagine IS possible, Id say the possibility that Dr McCoy developed what evolved into the Borg is quite real. If not McCoy, how about VGER? That would be a mind-bender too!

[@theautisticveteran2466]

I believe they survived. Also, if license equaled cannon... Bringing Kirk back to life and having Kirk deal with the Borg... Yeah. Nifty novels, but so many novels break Trek.

[@NimhLabs]

... wouldn't that just result in the Borg learning about having sex? I mean... the ONLY possible out come I could see about reviving Kirk to send after a threat is for it to lead to Kirk having sex with it. I'm fairly certain this is the topic of a running bet between senior officers anytime Kirk is sent somewhere to deal with Klingons. As that is pretty much the only time "Kirk having sex with it" is not a sure bet.

[@theautisticveteran2466]

Katrina Payne thank you for this... X-D

[@oliverlow2474]

When Janeway speaks to Picard in Nemesis, she includes the Borg in her joke about Picard getting the "easy assignments". Having firsthand witnessed the incredible scale of the Borg collective herself, it would make more sense for her to speak about them this way if they had been destroyed.

[@jannegrey]

I think that only one Unimatrix, and a bunch of ships nearby would have been affected. While Borg are sometimes stupid as hell, they're not that stupid.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

Jan Negrey If you think the Borg are not that stupid, you have not seen Voyager.

[@Shapes_Quality_Control]

Schwarzer Ritter The Borg were stupid before Voyager dude.

[@ericbukley2140]

The Borg aren't stupid... Just ignorant..& arrogant...

[@adrianfisher3349]

I always thought of the Borg in the terms of a computer network of today. Even the most powerful server can only handle a finite number of simultaneous connections before falling over. Given the vast distances of Borg space, if they were all one single collective they'd just be DDOSing themselves. It makes sense for them to have different 'winner's type collectives, possibly with the Borg Queen carrying out that role, or maybe overseeing a small group that does that.

[@jasmincimbollek3929]

Jep but now we know Janeway killed 99.99% of all borg with this Pathogen in the episode Endgame

[@MetaSynForYourSoul]

I just had an interesting thought. What if the Borg that follow the Queen are just one faction of Borg? Think about it, there Borg have been fractured before and different groups emerge within the collective, bringing conflict and struggle internally. What if the original Borg encountered in TNG episode "Q Who" were the original Borg and the faction that follows the queen a splinter group? Like say the Borg assimilated this species, but certain females of the species were able to maintain their individuality or at least some semblance of it and then were able to take control of a portion if the Borg. Then you would have a person at the head of a collective, basically billions that serve at her whim, the most absolute monarchy there ever was. And, just to take it a step further, what if the original Borg are losing this conflict? What do you think, Lore-sama?

[@MetaSynForYourSoul]

Lacuna Leora Yes. It makes sense that the different factions could be immune to a virus that infects one almost as if they were different species of Borg

[@fix0the0spade]

I always assumed that the Queen was litle more than a very advanced drone. A prodction model that could be spawned when and where a diplomacy based approach was needed due to normal Borg adapt/overwhelm tactics failing. It was able to mimic free will and take direct control of local units as needed to achieve The Collective's goal, but ultimately this was to aid The Collective rather than pursue it's own agenda. As soon as it had done it's work The Queen would be re-absorbed into The Collective until it was next needed. It would explain why The Queen keeps re-appearing and also explain why it's destruction never seems to set the Borg back very much. . As for End Game, we have seen before that The Collective is able to sever parts of itself that are degraded or infected with disease, mechanical or biological. Whilst the virus obviously caused a huge amount of damage, it was clear by the continued function of certain ships that The Collective had done just that and was able to keep at least part of itself uninfected. So Janeway didn't get to destroy the Borg outright.

[@MetaSynForYourSoul]

fix0the0spade An interesting hypothesis, however the is one fatal flaw in it I believe and that is that the Borg, regardless of the situation that they happen to be in with an adversary, that they don't do diplomacy. Actually I'm not sure if the Borg are even capable if switching objectives. What I mean is is that no matter what they may say at the time, their ultimate goal is your assimilation and subjugation. This makes diplomacy somewhat impossible.

[@amisigl4958]

It basically sounds like the Queens are simply overpowered nodes in a neural network designed as independent processes that, while able to act of their own volition, have an overriding high command that is essentially the Will of the Borg. In this respect, one can have multiple Queen "Nodes" each with different tactical scenarios to play out within the collective as a whole. It can also explain the differences within the Queens, as the Borg attempt to adapt and play out scenarios in order to more fully understand their intended targets for assimilation. This means that in End Game, only the small percentage under Unimatrix-1 was affected because the main 'Node" was affected. Not the Borg as a whole. When the overriding program realized this, it adapted and cut off parts of the sub nodes(as I feel like referring them to) and utilize that to attempt to save the "Node" in general so as to not lose vital information it had, nor the resources of computational ability with the "Node" itself.(I.E. the drones cause lets face it, they would totally use the brains of the species they take over as say, extra RAM. it also means the Queens had some high caliber of Processing Power to become highly sophisticated Nodes, in the same actuality as a main server drive or a computer core.) Granted, this is coming from someone who just watches the show on whims, and doesn't know much else behind it like the real Trekkies....

[@skinnydavenport407]

That's an awesome idea but it doesn't really fit with the Canon when you consider that Picard admits the Queen's presence during his assimilation--but the Borg that assimilated the Captain were of the same type that Q introduced them to originally. I suspect the Borg had a Queen when the Enterprise encountered the first cube, but that she was probably more organic, i.e. retaining her original limbs under her implants like all other drones, until the Collective assimilated the nanoprobe technology. We see that with this change, the collective sacrificed more organic parts (in Picard's assimilation the mechanical arm is made to simply fit over the human arm, whereas later the Borg amputate the forearm before attaching the prosthesis.) Also the use of assimilation tubules is introduced, replacing the earlier process that was 100% surgical. It would make sense that the Queen would be changed by this as well. It probably took time for this revolution to spread across the entire collective, which is most likely why the Borg appear in backstories to exist as two different groups simultaneously.

[@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent]

In STO the Borg were deemed extinct or at least no longer a threat since Janeway's attack in 2375- to 2384 in 2409 the Borg begins a massive attack in force and manage to get a foothold in the Alpha Quadrant. Interestingly the Federation and her neighbors are able to resist and keep Borg forces in check and from pushing further into the local factions. So it shows several things. the Borg managed to re-collect and organize into a cohesive force and well we don't know the numbers given the potential size of the Borg its likely in the thousands still at least for ship capabilities and likely learning a lesson or two from factions in battle doctrine, they began a expansion campaign into sectors likely lost or those that they deemed of interest. Well the Borg are still technologically advanced the last decade or two was enough for them to be scaled back technologically to the point that resistance was not only possible but that retaliation of those factions to the Borg by conventional means was a real possibility. Not to mention Little Voyager had a former borg drone and was modified with borg technology adding to the federations technological capabilities. So well the Borg are slowly returning into the nightmare they were before the are no longer the main bully on the block.

[@BlackCloudBoss]

eaglerocks123 War stories in star trek is so old hat now that what you wrote is completely uninteresting.

[@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent]

BlackCloudBoss so why did you bother complaining about it as it was interesting enough for you to comment? :P

[@bluesmet]

STO is non cannon.

[@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent]

From how trekkie's react to Discovery, and the 2009 Star Trek to the point they do everything to consider them non-cannon or avoid them I say STO has just as much claim as cannon as Discovery and the Kelvin Verse and the original TOS and TNG series. For all intents and purposes STO does follow the events of the Prime Timeline after the supernova that destroyed Romulus, its story deals with the fallout from the event, and reactions to previous events from ST past, many main characters from the show that would still be alive in the games timelime appear as themselves (voice acting of course but its actually them) and the story is fairly far enough from the TNG era to allow room for its own stories. So as far as i'm concerned the whole non cannon shit is hyperbole at this point when even Trekkies refuses to accept new shows of the series all cause they get a hissy fit that it doesn't have a 1960s TOS bridge with made of cardboard.,

[@UkrainianPaulie]

@@bluesmet but ships, rces and other stuff has to get CBS authorization. Technicalky semi-cannon.

[@lancep2002]

I've always assumed there were multiple queens running as redundant backups.

[@TBK5451]

I personally think that the Borg survived. They had to have some failsafe in place to stop the virus from spreading, unless the virus itself was also able to adapt as well.

[@barrybend7189]

Charles J. I think it's based off of the unimatrix zero idea.

[@TBK5451]

Barry Bend Ah. I forgot about that. I’m going to rewatch these episodes again. I need to refresh myself on Janeway’s tactics on the Borg.

[@barrybend7189]

Charles J. But I agree with you that the Borg still would survive but they would be splintered as a result.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

A plan in case they suffer a major system failure? if a cube can lose 78% of its systems and still function, how big would that number be for the entire collective.

[@vilaintrolltrollinsky8007]

And somes will be just far enough to miss the toxic memo.

[@APTKC2025]

We now have a canonical answer to this: yes she did.

[@dramonmaster222]

I look at it like this. In TV canon, the Borg are given a heavy blow. In the Star Trek book series, the Borg are gone forever.

[@andrewgilbertson5672]

In the book series, they weren't destroyed by this event, though; they came back twice, killing billions of Federation citizens in the process, before finally meeting their (apparently) final end.

[@toothpickstickerbananas4914]

Ha.... Heavy blow....

[@aztn19]

Yeah...and honestly it felt disappointing to have the mysterious Borg Collective “true” origins and demise be revealed in the same series. It killed the mystique of the Borg, which was far worse than just destroying them forever

[@stephencodekas3745]

Which book is this?

[@dramonmaster222]

memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_Destiny

[@cragerzz]

Well theyre around in Picard as they assimilated Sikarians years after Janeway got home which is why the cube the Romulans infected had advanved tech including a spacial trajector in the throne room. Also the Queen only exists as a consciousness and can be placed in any borg body to control

[@SoranoGuardias]

Star Trek: Elite Force II addresses the whole inside/outside the sphere thing conclusively (Beta canon, I know)

[@mitchellhorton9382]

My assumption has become that the Queens are much like Warhammer 40k Synapse creatures. The Queen is present on the cubes as a redundancy if a cube loses connection to the Collective (we know smaller ships that lose connection can spawn rogue Drones) and/or as a tool to respond quickly and with a degree of "instinct" to fast changing situations. The question becomes fundamentally to me; does the Queen determine motivations, or does the Collective? We know the Queen can determine ACTIONS (stopping the assimilation of Voyager) but if she's just accomplishing the Collective's goals in her own way, she's still subservient to it as a whole.

[@177SCmaro]

If she did one might say it's poetic justice, given all the species the Borg effectively genocided.

[@LoreReloaded]

Agreed.. many of those species would welcome it

[@russellleclair7780]

I want to add that Janeway is responsible for the assimilation of many species because of how she handled in her initial encounter with species 8472, one might say she's trying to make up for it because she has a guilty conscience or at least it's feasible

[@michaelnelson1270]

@@russellleclair7780 If species 8472 to had been allowed to go ahead and destroy the Borg unmolested, was there even the ghost of a chance that they would have stopped there and not just destroyed all life in our space? Janeway made a deal with a devil to defeat on even bigger threat.

[@mojomoe0860]

So to add to the theory. You should look at the Borg as Zerg from starcraft. Each drone requires a hive brain (queen/ overlord) every computer needs a processing unit that can only handle so much. It's why the queen can die and still survive. It is a generic copy used to make decisions as part of a separate entity while remaining apart of a hive structure

[@jamiemezs9891]

The Borg will adapt.

[@LoreReloaded]

They always seem to

[@IronWarhorsesFun]

UPGRADE IN PROGRESS!!!

[@jean-marcandjoshua-petsjournal]

@@IronWarhorsesFun Upgrayedddd!

[@IronWarhorsesFun]

@@jean-marcandjoshua-petsjournal Nightmare in Glowy Green

[@t.c.thompson2359]

Extinction is inevitable. For all in existence, this is a law of nature. It may take a LONG time, but it WILL happen.

[@dreammirrorbrony1240]

I have never liked the idea of the Borg Queen. They were far more mysterious & dangerous when they were a faceless, omnivoiced threat. There was no individuality, no diplomacy, and no discussion. Surrender & be assimilated, or be destroyed. Period.

[@RedDadRedemption]

We see in multiple episodes of "Voyager" that the Borg are able to travel to Fluidic space so what is to stop them from having found access to a second different "space" and building either in Fluidic or the new "space" The Borg will survive, resistance is futile.

[@snikrepak]

This right here, hiding in plain sight, only untill they decide to open the rift

[@carlosrubio959]

I kinda always felt that the Borg are like Bee Hives. Each hive has a queen in this case the Borg has one queen therefore if a queen dies a new queen will take the farmers place and command the hive.

[@KEVMAN7987]

The Borg are both alive & destroyed. They have been destroyed every time they've been stopped. The plot always sets itself up to where you can assume the Borg were destroyed if the franchise were to never use the Borg again.

[@FancyGeeks]

Schrodinger's Borg.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

In the beginning there was Borg, but there was Borg before Borg that came after Borg.

[@FancyGeeks]

Then the Borg came.

[@jasonskeans3327]

@@FancyGeeks nice

[@nixboox]

The Queen was an adaptation for assimilating Earth in the past. She is a mobile networking platform. She is the catalyst that allows the Borg to transit time. There are lots of queens, clearly. Her purpose is to anticipate and bring the Borg consciousness into harmony across multiple timelines. The Janeway that traveled back in time to save Voyager created a temporal anomaly that the queen corrected. When Captain Janeway did NOT get stuck in the Delta Quadrant for all those extra years then Admiral Janeway never existed and the timeline where she infected the Borg ended. So the Borg seen being destroyed were temporally displaced in the alternate timeline. The Borg that Captain Janeway escaped from are still alive, which we see at the end when the Sphere is still very much attacking.

[@mdredheadguy1979]

Wait, where did you hear that Voyager didn’t get stuck in the Delta quadrant in an alternate timeline?

[@travis4016]

Id have to agree the borg are to massive and to obsessed with perfection to not have redundancies on redundancies

[@22steve5150]

However, one's greatest strength is always one's greatest weakness. The Borg hive mind and advanced networking served them well against a great many threats and was by far their greatest strength, when faced with a virus from the future that existed for the sole purpose of destroying them, it is sensible to assume that it has been engineered to get around the late 2370's era known firewalls and contingency programs and systems the Borg had, and just like modern networked technology, the same strength that allows unparalleled flow of information and central control also works as a super highway for the virus to spread, and because of their heavily centralized nature and the fact that attack methods that the borg haven't anticipated (and adapted their systems to be at peak efficiency against) are generally always devastating to them, so it's not crazy to assume that at least 99% of their ships and drones are gone and likely all of the queens since each one of them seemed to be like a 1 drone communications hub and thus may have been more vulnerable than the rest of their network.

[@travis4016]

22steve5150 and that makes sense but they also have a huge swath of the delta quadrant(insert correct quadrant if I got that wrong) and even with subspace there would be lag in theory on cube could have enough time to witness and start an adaption process that could reduce it to 80% effectiveness if it spread from the middle or as low as 60% if it started from an extreme end.

[@22steve5150]

That's also true. One thing I like to theorize, is that what's left of the Borg may decide both as a defensive measure against further advanced networked viral attacks that a hive mind and it's required comms networking would never be fully able to deal with, and as a realization that it's the ultra individualist nature of the Federation that allows innovation of things like that virus or the method to stop species 8472 after so much Borg failure, to end their hive mind and restore individuality to the drones as their next "evolutionary" step towards perfection, which if done would probably radically change both what the borg are and what their society's goals are (it would probably fragment them into multiple confederations with different goals and lead to many drones leaving to find their own way in the universe), and in a way would be both an "end" to the Borg and a beginning of new post collective civilizations of former drones. That would make the Delta quadrant really interesting, and maybe quite chaotic for a long time.

[@samueldeyiii4901]

Backups are basic. The Borg aren't basic. Forget synchronization. I'd think that a threat so massive that it requires the activation of a backup collective means priorities would shift. Perfection is impossible without survival. Everything would take a back seat to that.

[@jasonskeans3327]

They are also massively arrogant so they might not have enough fail safe that they should

[@stevenjones2673]

I hope your vacation on Risa is wonderful. Just keep this little statuette with you at all times.

[@andrewshearsby8125]

Heres an idea. Based on the assumption the Borg survived how long do you reckon they'll take to reform?

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

I guess long. Not only would it take some time to reform to former size, but they would also have to factor in the technical development of the Federation, the possibilities of other factions and that bit of future technology that might get reverse engineered into specialized anti Borg weapons.

[@sebastiant5695]

in the Voyager book series, about one year after Voyager got home - the Borg launch a large scale attack on the Alpha Quadrant with thousands of ships and almost wipe-out everything. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek:_Voyager_novels

[@jasonskeans3327]

A long time i guess a good chunk of the collective died

[@michaelrobinson5660]

The queen is an emergent personality that represents the will of the Borg. She is like the organizing framework that take a billion individuals and turns them to one purpose. That's why you cant kill her as long as there is one borg in the universe there will always be a queen.

[@uckfayooglegay9982]

I like the theory of the Borg Queens being like parasites who hijack the Borg for their own purposes

[@icepicjoey]

There's a Star Trek manga as well that did an interesting story on the queens origin. But I never liked the whole queen story.

[@roytiller4537]

It really makes me wonder if we will see The Borg in the 32nd century on Discovery? I am really curious to see what they would have evolved into if they are still around...I hope we get to find out.

[@jamoecw]

so if we take a WW2 battleship and pit it against a modern tanker (design and construction difference of about 70 years) we won't get the same result as putting a space ship made and designed from the 22nd century to be a science ship (few federation ships were designed to be a warship) against a space ship from the 24th century designed to be a mining ship? this isn't a surprise. even if the science ship is supposed to be a warship this isn't a surprise. let us take a merchant vessel from the 18th century, as it has weapons systems to fight pirates like all space ships in the trek universe, and pit it against a vessel from the 16th century (making it a 200 year gap just like the space ship example). the result would be much more similar to the spaceship comparison.

[@jamoecw]

@Logan Waltz - "it's basic economics, really." well your points are not about basic economics. "Because there are always threats in space, all ships would have weapons and shields as standard equipment like a life raft." this holds true for open ocean as well. cargo ships hire what essentially amounts to mercenaries to act as defense for their ships. they used to arm the ships, but local governments that they go to do not like armed ships in their waters, so they prohibit such. this means that due to politics ships nowadays lack mounted weapons on their ships. they instead use portable weapon systems and more often anti-boarding teams using small arms. the scale of armament needed for ships has decreased due to increased policing of international waters, more proactive actions against piracy, and a singular world power (their was more piracy during the cold war, and it holds true that the more world powers that their are the more piracy that there is internationally). "As tech gets more advanced and gets adopted at higher levels in the economy, it also gets cheaper and easier to acquire. In 2030, 4k tv will cost $300 for 50" and every poor household will have one or more." this is conjecture based on popular assumptions. the same statement using older technology that was omnipresent would be to say that muskets would be pennies and every household will have one. money has lost value, so the cost would be higher in actual dollar amounts but the basic idea holds true. the next problem is that muskets were replaced with more complex devices, and due to industrial capability has kept them at the same relative value. this means that we get musket equivalents for musket prices after adjustment for inflation. actual muskets are rare and thus cost more (this is a basic economic concept). we come to the same conclusion at the end, because it is quite logical. the reason as to when one looks at modern non combat ships versus older combat ships has everything to do with political change and technological progression. basic economics underpins both of these concepts, and just looking at such one should determine that the old ship should win the fight. lore knows his lore, but his understanding on the mechanics driving reality is always a bit shaky, so using an analogy from the real world was doomed to failure.

[@matthew8153]

The battleship would probably win. They don’t make them that well anymore.

[@rowlandbuck2703]

It assumes technology doesn't hit any hard walls though. And that's a big assumption. You can't keep up exponential advancement forever. It always flattens out eventually.

[@Cloud759star]

Your totally right mate, the oceans for the most parts are benine atm so a civi ship doesn't compare to a mining vessel. The civi vessel would have sensors allowing it to ID the battle ship outside of range of its guns and unless the civi ship is a tanker, probably out run it. But that civi ship with a single ship to ship missile, like a harpoon missile, could take a first World War battle ship easily.

[@brownro214]

As I recall from high school biology, when a queen bee dies prematurely, the drones feed royal jelly to a newly hatched pupa turning it into a new queen. I suspect the Borg would do something similar.

[@Sparky8472a]

I'd have thought the fact that at least one ship managed to assimilate the pathogen would mean there was at least a fair chance that others did, and those wouldn't necessarily have been destroyed.

[@soulscompendium4769]

The fact that the Borg queen could still feel and controll the sphere shows not all Borg are or were affected.

[@Quimper111]

They're gone. The universe updated itself and removed the bug that was the Borg. Seriously.. After having assimilated that many civilisations and still getting whipped by the humans time and time again it's time to call it quits.

[@p.bamygdala2139]

When we think about how many thousands of species they assimilated, the Borg should have a vast list of clever backup plans. Perhaps they have cube ships placed sporadically here and there, throughout the galaxy.

[@PotatoRevan]

i assumed the queen woke up somewhere else or even there are more than one Borg queen like 1 alpha 1 beta ans so on

[@andrewgru7077]

If you recall, there was that race in Voyager that said the borg had grown and collapsed. There are also going to be pockets of borg ish people who were survivors of that sub group that broke free. Both the ones chakotay helped and the others 7of9 helped. So borg exist in one form or another. There is also the episode from enterprise where some that were dormant for decades were restarted. As a result, if one drone or nanite servive, the collective as a whole also survives. Laying in wait for someone to restart the process.

[@deusexaethera]

No, Janeway did not commit genocide. You can only commit genocide against people, and enemies are not people. Every good soldier knows that.

[@LoreReloaded]

Crazy since she helped them defeat species 8472

[@cernstormrunner7263]

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

[@GameHammerCG]

I was always of the opinion that the Borg Queen wasn’t part of the Borg until around the time of Best of Both Worlds but wasn’t a major influence then; which is why they were wanting an individual to represent them, for the first time. She gets more influential after that and consequently she becomes a major weak point for the Borg after that; which to me explains why the Borg have become less of a threat over time.

[@macree01]

I think the idea that something cant be canon unless its on screen is pretty weak honestly. Especially when you look at other franchises like Star Wars which easily have their best stories not in movie format. Ultimately, canon is what one deems it to be. If someone likes a story and considers it canon, and it in no way interferes with the other works that are "canon" , then I do not really see the big deal. Considering the likelihood of a Post 2379 series or movie ever being made again is getting slimmer and slimmer the more the years go on, I say let people consider canon what ever they want. Edit : Also, I love the Countdown comics. Its probably the closest we will ever get to an actual continuation of the TNG era story as it is post 2379.

[@jasonskeans3327]

Canon is what the owners say it is

[@pyrioncelendil]

If we're going to use computing analogies for this, this is how I look at it: An individual Borg drone is, at best, a single thread in a multithreaded process. It has a designation, x of y, the "of y" establishes how many threads there are in that process. Those processes coordinate together in their own little collective, and get instructions from higher up the hierarchy within their Unimatrix. The sum total of Borg drones make up the sum total of processes handing various functions (Seven of Nine was a "tertiary adjunct," for example) in the system, some of them of higher priority than others, but ultimately, there is a process that may very well run perfectly fine single-threaded, separate from the whole, that administers the whole. We call it the Kernel. That's the Queen in a nutshell. It makes perfect sense for a collectivized species such as Borg to be decentralized to the point that, even at the macro scale, as all the Borg are joined in what appears to be a single gestalt consciousness, there's enough redundancy in each individual distributed system that if any one Unimatrix is compromised, another can take over and pick up where they left off, with, at worst, the compromised Unimatrix and its requisite components being deliberately sacrificed to avoid spreading the contagion to the rest of the Collective. Which we see them engaging in with the whole Unimatrix Zero debacle. And so we end up with numbered Unimatrices each with their own Queen at the top administering the entire Unimatrix as a distributed computing environment, with enough redundancy built-in that even with Admiral Janeway's virus wrecking most-everything constrained to that Unimatrix, the Borg as a whole are only a bit inconvenienced. The Borg hierarchy, at some point, has to go from a top-down model with a Queen managing everything, to a distributed hierarchy where each Unimatrix coordinates with the others but has its own Queen running the show local to that Unimatrix, mostly independent of the others, but all working towards the same overall goal.

[@g.b.1224]

It would be very foolish to let the best race of Star trek die.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

The Borg stopped being the best race of Star Trek when the queen was introduced.

[@t4rv0r60]

the whole borg existence is a paradox and they could never exist. best race is beyond questioning

[@schwarzerritter5724]

rene ziesig Why could the Borg never exist?

[@t4rv0r60]

at this point i want to lead to another channel. "media zealot" go there and watch the "advanced sci-fi civs. that should never exist" series and watch episode 2, its first half is dedicated to the borg. basically it comes down to the flaw that borgs are weak to "cloak and dagger" strategies, cant generate new ideas to really "adapt" and they are outsmartet by federation almost every time....in endgame its a f****** virus.....an machine driven civilization, formed to achieve "perfection" and they dont even have firewalls......and dont get startet with unimatrix one.... dont get me wrong, i dont hate borg, hell i find them a fearsom enemy trekwise (unless you have fed. plot armor/shields) and i l o v e trek since i was a naive youngling. but in our universe, borg could never exist long enough to become the power that they are in trek.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

rene ziesig The Borg where not this way before Voyager ruined them.

[@anthonyscarfe4853]

My opinion is that the Borg task a drone to think and act as an individual but remain connected to the local collective when they face an unfamiliar problem. This is to try to get an alternative view on how to address the problem instead of using the one the collective created, so as to adapt more quickly and efficiently. Such versions of this are Picard/Locutus when facing the federation, Seven when having a deal with Voyager and the local Queen for assimilating Earth. Any important Borg locations and ships would have a Queen for backup that’s based off their most efficient version yet. Multiple hubs like unimatrix 1 probably exist for localised communication and connections to unimatrix 1, which has the head queen. Janeway destroyed the central hub for production, communication and information backup for the Borg, which meant they became weaker by having the other areas be more localised in their collectives.

[@aperson22222]

"Just because it's licensed doesn't make it canon. It has to be onscreen." YES!!! Thank you! I hate the Queen too. I agree, she breaks the Borg.

[@Axys_0_Rex]

Locutus came before the Queen. Locutus makes no sense to me. I can understand them wanting to assimilate Picard, but why do they need a spokesperson? Resistance is futile, so why would they care that the federation might resist?

[@halofreak1990]

I disagree. It's just shitty writing. A near identical construction works just fine in the StarCraft series, which has the Zerg as pretty much the equivalent of the Borg, leadership included.

[@Razaiel]

Locutus was a dumb idea, it made sense to assimilate Picard to gain his knowledge but made no sense to have him be the spokesborg.

[@ncr_ranger96]

@@Razaiel I suppose having him as the "spokesborg" would be intimidating. "This guy couldn't stop us. What makes you think you can?" It may also be that they want to avoid resistance because the more intact a civilization is, the more they get out of assimilating it. Perhaps the Locutus trick worked on one species so they tried it on us just in case it saved them some time/resources.

[@supercat765]

The way I personally think of the borg is that they are not innovators. They are less likely to preemptively close all potentially exploitable weaknesses. They mainly solve problems that are in front of them. But they would have it that even if a weakness is exploited, it would not destroy the borg, just set them back. Then they would rebuild to close that exploit. The killing of the queen in first contact, and the destruction in Voyager, had unexpectedly large effects in response to an exploited weakness because that was the first time those exploits were used against them

[@Shaden0040]

In First Contact, Picard said that the Borg Queen wanted locutus to be her male counterpart her companion, her equal. With that said, I think Seven was an experiment in making a second Borg Queen, and still might be. If we look at insects like bees and ants, a Hive or colony will make Elates to go on mating flights and then establish their own hives/colonies. Hives do this to perpetuate the species by diversifying their genes and expanding their territories. Why wouldn't the Borg do the same thing? Make new queens, to make new hives? Perhaps even to travel to new glaxies. We know that Intergalactic travel is possible in the Trek universe, due to the Kelvins coming to the Milky Way from Andromeda. And with the Transwarp conduits of the Borg that travel would be reduced from hundreds of years to maybe decades. Maybe Seven was allowed to gain individuality so she could become a new Borg queen, like worker bees giving royal jelly to a larva to turn it into a fully functioning queen. Somehwere somewhen that instinct to start a hive and find new territories will kick in in Seven. Or maybe not. We have seen with Hugh and with other former Borg in the Delta quadrant that you can have unity in a collective without lossing your individuality. Maybe that is the next step in Borg evolution. Instead of acting like army ants and marauding across the galaxy, Seven's potential hive would be one of unity without destructiveness one offered on a volunteer basis, instead of by enforced enslavement by conquest. Something akin to what the Binars have.

[@eternallylearning2811]

Cool My thoughts as well I just forgot them for an bit

[@DanielRichards644]

the Queen in Endgame specifically said that one of the Cubes (or that sphere that followed Voyager into the transwarp conduit) that could still hear her thoughts had assimilated the pathogen so if one had then it's highly likely that ship then transmitted along the "cure" to others, Janeway most definitely did not destroy ALL the borg, she only destroyed the ones close enough to be in direct contact with that queen, we also know the further borg are from each other the slower or even non-existant the link is between borg, like in both First Contact AND that episode of Enterprise the borg where trying to send a subspace message to the borg currently in the Delta Quadrant and that had to build giant transmitters to do that, so any borg sufficiently distant from that hub would not be effected from the pathogen, this could also explain the "queens" you have a different queen for each "cluster" of borg, maybe even one on each ship if that ship was going to be to far from other borg ships to maintain the full connection to the collective. Either way Janeway definitely achieved a major victory that would be enough to make the rest of the borg think twice about attempting to assimilate the federation again.

[@donwon7592]

Mr.Miles will be here shortly telling us that the Borg survived.

[@LoreReloaded]

Indeed

[@donaldbensen146]

In the game Star Trek Elite Force, the end of this episode was expanded upon. Voyager was inside of the sphere and then used transphasic torpedoes to blast its way out. Look up the gameplay for more.

[@andrewwblanchard6037]

THE 3 JJ JAR JAR ABRAMS MOVIES and ATROCITY : DISCOVERY ARE NOT STAR TREK CANON

[@alittax]

The fact that there are so many Borg drones from so many different species makes it unlikely that at least some of them aren't immune to a virus that would destroy the rest. Even one Borg drone is enough to resurrect the Collective by starting to assimilate anything it encounters.

[@Dinowarrior21]

Star trek elite force 2 they destroyed the borg sphere from within.

[@williamseneyjr.6277]

Greetings! Former Trekkie in middle school that is rediscovering the fandom here so if I say something that seems stupid, please be kind. What if the Borg queen isn't actually a Borg at all? What if she's a similar life form that, through some sort of deception, somehow convinced the collective that she is an authority figure to them? It'd be a Hell of a way to position yourself behind the most formidable force in the galaxy and it could possibly explain her in-universe inconsistencies as it relates to the Borg.

[@mebenn15]

My thoughts would definitely be the Borg have survived albeit in a weaker form, currently down but no where near out.

[@hackman669]

Borg are like bees with small hives splitter across the galaxy. You take out the queen and central command the Borg then become individuals.

[@alistairrae9807]

Janeway pretty much crippled the Borg yes ships survived but they shut down the Borg never truly recovered

[@gowronsonofmrel867]

"You think in such 3 dimensional terms" Borg Queen

[@AnimalFacts]

If they did survive and know how resourceful humans can be in defeating them, it would be very Borg-like to want to assimilate humanity even more so than originally. A post-Voyager Borg confrontation would likely be a massive invasion of the Alpha quadrant.

[@PeoplecallmeLucifer]

2:35 Isn't one theory that the queen is an attempt to adapting to and/or trying understanding the way the federation managed to de-assimilate a few of their members (Locusts, Hue, Seven)

[@readermike8355]

I always considered the queens to be powerful telepaths, of Luxwana Troi level who are used to give direction to the collective. There would be a couple of them in different areas. Janeway killing one only took out the ones linked to her. The Cube that took Voyager wasn't connected directly to her as it continued after the cluster was destroyed, so I think the Borg are still out there. And like Seven said, a part of her will always live on in the collective, so that Queen's mind is still there, she just no longer has a body.

[@SurrealNirvana]

Hasn't this all been addressed already in canon? The Borg are a hive mind, with different queens running different parts. The virus only affected the local hive mind until it was able to adapt. The Nostromo had borg tech, it's stated in the movie.

[@JoeFlansburgJoeMF74]

I definitely think the Borg survived. Not only because of other queens that would be plugged in as needed. But also the "Recall and Repair program", that they seem to have since the 1st encounter, when Enterprise D did damage to the 1st cube seen. Same program was noticed in "Enterprise" 's 'Regeneration' episode. STVoy's End game. Caused major damage and would trigger the Recall and Repair, program.

[@trekjudas]

Here's my theory on the Borg Queen: she's Skynet! She's the original operating system for the Borg. You can't kill the Queen because she's a sentient program, she only downloads herself into a body so she can banter with Picard or Janeway.

[@phillipschmidt6295]

I agree with most of your points. In my head cannon the Borg weren't destroyed but rather fragmented, infact I have long wondered at the possibility that there is multiple versions of the Borg each thinking they are the only "true borg" who knows.

[@skryptre]

i like to think that the queen exists solely for adaption- it could be a king, or just called an overseer. i think the borg occasionally have need to centralize control into one unit, to adapt to a circumstance necessitating it. why the queen is the usual representative could be explained by her biology being the most effective for this task; whether that be brain power, or whatever. if her species is better suited to the role of oversight, and oversight is needed, then it would be logical to posit that they'd have clones of her, either dormant and waiting activation or concurrently overseeing a different area/task. just as seven of nine and locutus were given some amount of autonomy to deal with a task, perhaps even some control of other drones. once the task is done they'd be normal drones again, completely equal in being controlled solely by the hive mind. it could be that the queen(s) is assigned tasks that are either broad enough or will last long enough to give sufficient reason for each queen to remain a queen until the individual units expire, where the task is given to another drone (or clone of the queen). and to answer the question "if they clone, why do they assimilate" i would reckon that's out of necessity- a clone would have no new knowledge to add, and if they solely went on cloning then they wouldn't have the upper hand over other species, thereby allowing more competition and the higher possibility of defeat. i would assume they clone for numbers and to ensure the continuance of biological advantages specific to each species. i would think the borg survived the neuro pathogen, if not any of the drones then a few hunks of tech which then proceeds to come into contact with a species, assimilates it and goes from there. so an incredible set back, but not likely to have been eradicated by the events in end game solely.

[@ryancraig210]

By and large I think you're right about the borg, we see several instances of single borg ships being disabled through some sort of virus or something but doesn't affect the rest of the collective. Unless introduced directly feed the communications hub. So I think when the borg gets assimilate someone. The only initially connect to the cube or ship there on. Until Samsung virus sweep can be run. And if anything found wrong that ship is automatically disconnected from the hive mind. Now as for the queen I completely agree with you it now to a point. I think there's only like one Queen at a time and her function is to keep the borg. From becoming too single-minded

[@CallenExile]

I think they were devestated as an empire, but it's likely multiple cubes and isolated drones are still out there unaware of eachother.

[@vali6717]

Considering the presence of multiple queens, I have my own analogy for the Borg. It’s kind of like a mushroom network made up of ant hives(it sounds odd but work with me). You can kill the queens, you can even destroy the core structure that connects the hives but if you miss all of the hives there’s a chance to the structure to rebuild in a different form. The Borg could be injured to a point that would be catastrophic for most races but without completely destroying all of them they have every chance to eventually recover. It could take them centuries to recover their original strength but without completely eradicating them Janeway’s virus would most likely ultimately be just a setback in the extreme long term.

[@3Minotaur3]

The Borg are fragmented, having a Queen (we only saw female Borg, but male are not an impossibility. Think Locutus for example) commanding a faction, a part of the collective. As far as I know, 2 Borg factions has been ‘destroyed’: - The faction commanded by the Queen killed by Janeway. - The faction commanded by the Queen killed by Data (First Contact movie). And I assume a faction can be of different size, from a single Cube to an armada of ships and planets...

[@Nimiety327]

Even assuming the Janeway virus was able to wipe out the borg collective, there is still a way for the Brog to return. The drones in Unamatrix Zero, them and their ships were not connected to the hive mind so they would be safe from Janeway's virus. Borg technology is a very risky thing, even when you do understand it. All it would take is for one person to revert back to their drone mentality, start assimilating and before long the Borg have returned.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

One of the big points about the borg is redundency and adaptability. As long as something keeps working, ther will be borg left. Also the name "Unimatrix 01" suggests that there are atleas 10 (not counting Zero), that would hint thatat worst Janeway would destry 10% of the Borg. It could be more via chain reaction. Also there is no evidence they they would keep all of them up. What happened is that the Borg lost a lot of resources, be it ships, drones and maybe even transwarp capability, but they will regenerate. That would also explain why they only send one ship every few years into Federation space: They are testing the capabilities of Starfleet. In the first encounter with the ENT-D they carefully went step by step to gain knowledge about Picards ship. Nobody is written that that isn't usual behaviour on first encounters with new species. And by sending single cubes with long gaps inbetween they would evaluate the development of Federation technology up to a point where assimilation would have a high enough priority to send a full invasion fleet. Directly after Wolf 359 the collective could've sent a full fleet ready for assimilation, Starfleet was heavily crippled by the fight and the defensive capabilities were known.

[@chefdean7257]

Excellent video. Two points. The Borg definitely survived, and The Queen is a stand alone program, as Adm. Janeway was turned into a Queen AFTER this episode.

[@Villordsutch]

I feel one key pieces of evidence in their survival is in the naming of Unimatrix 01. The 01 (to myself) indicates this is possibly the just one of many Matrices or Matrixs (how would I word this here (who the heck knows?))

[@SchardtCinematic]

Don't forget. There is Hugh from the episode I Borg. He and a whole bunch of drones were separated from the Borg. They started off on there own. At least until Lore came along.

[@MegaRoss88]

I personally like the idea that the Borg are cybernetic and have a cybernetic intelligence that defines how the collective behaves and the tasks it carries out, the efficient and calculating portion and the personality side, the queen is the physical manifestation of the collectives personality, not restricted to behaviour like a machine.

[@aoconnor2933]

If I recall, the Borg assimilated the virus just before the destruction of the HUB and Unimatrix 01 per the Borg Queen. That being said, I'm pretty confident, while crippled to a degree, they're very much alive still.

[@jasonjd84]

To me, I always thought that the virus was a big loss and a set-back, but hardly enough to destroy them. I would think that the virus would spread to nearby Borg but at some point the hive would realize what was happening and severe the links to the effected area or at-least sandbox communication to screen it first. This is technology we have now in computing.

[@seanm4095]

To the idea of Borg redandancy we know from episode as far back as the ST TOS that time travel is possible. And the Borg have this technology (First Contact). So time viewing is defiantly within the realm of borg tech so preparing for things like "the Voyagers Escape Manuver" they could prepare for that!

[@bigbear1293]

Hey Lore, great video but I think looking at the Narrada might be a bad example to support your argument for 2 reasons. 1: A mining ship in the future would have massive weaponry to extract material from planet sized asteroids and stuff if they are supposed to be doing it on an industrial scale like I imagine the Narrada would be and 2: The self repairing of the ship could be a much more advanced version of the Self repair functionality of the Romulan Unmanned Warbirds as seen on Enterprise. That was over 200 years before the Narrada and is still pretty advanced wherever you put it in Canon

[@vidiveniviciDCLXVI]

Borgs superpower isn't they're a collective or have a Hive mind, it's that they're adaptable and have the combined experience of 1000s of species(So ok that does tie in with the collective but you know what I mean).

[@MrTurboTash]

There is a voyager episode where 7of9 states regeneration tech was an assimilated tech not native to the borg meaning they are not the only source for that mining ship. Tho if i remember right she did say they assimilated the entire species

[@mdredheadguy1979]

When I first watched the last episode of Voyager, I figured that really was the end of the Borg. But over the years, it makes more sense that the Borg would have a contingency plan. My guess is, it would be a structure, most likely hidden on a planet. Some kind of massive database that contained all the information/memories deemed essential and thus safe guarded. I’d image what that this base, or complex would be gravely shielded and many safe guards in place to keep it hidden and protected. Might even have the majority of its systems and drones powered down. Perhaps to make detection more difficult. The complex would only power up if it lost its connection with the Hive. Or perhaps it only had an intermittent connection, a safe guard to protect it from a virus similar to one one used in that episode. Once an amount of time goes by with no signal from the collective, the complex would power up and activate its drones. They would have their own ships which they would use to travel to key locations once controlled by the Borg, and try to find out what happened to interrupt the signal from the collective. After that, it would just be a matter of rebuilding Borg forces and re-asserting control.

[@kelanelam2638]

Thanks to this video, it occurs to me that the 'Queen' may be just like a parasitic insect in an ant colony - not detectable as "other", able to impress her view on the drones, but not actually fully assimilated into the Collective... She's kinda like malware.

[@timo191]

In "Endgame" Janeway say there are 6 hubs like the one they destroyed across the Delta Quadrant. Also remember the repair station that was destroyed by the crew of the NX-01? What did it due? Just started repairing itself. All you need is for a handful of Borg assets to survive. They will just start again.

[@soulsteel9]

End game also showed that some of the borg were able to adapt to the virus, thus the borg as a whole wouldn't be destroyed. Also remember what the borg queen said in unimatrix 0, that she was the age of a child when she was assimilated; so clearly there can/will be another queen. Finally, in end game there is a whole class at the academy dealing with the borg. Why would they have that class other than to keep information updated for current borg threats.

[@patrickwagner98]

On the Star Trek Blu Ray disk, in the bonus material, it also says that Nero's ship was retrofitted with Borg technology

[@TheColonelSassacre]

If I were in charge, I would have the Borg survive, but in two parts disconnected from each other. That way, when they finally restore contact, the two are incompatible and put all of their resources into attempting to assimilate the other. Maybe one has a Queen, the other doesn't. That way you can keep the Borg around for story reasons, but you don't have to explain why they don't conquer the galaxy. They'd have a limiting factor, a natural predator.

[@DrZalmat]

It is even stated that the Borg had precursors and the cycle of rising to power, getting crushed to nearly extinction and then rising again went on for millennia before, so it would not be that farfetched to assume this defeat is just one of many and they will rise again in the future