1337 History of Russia & Political Map

[@LudietHistoria]

Feeling sad? Watch the British eu5 map next to cheer you up there buddy kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIXPeGOphcmSoMU

[@aytuky7041]

love you

[@rabbaniazzahra1784]

so are hungarians finnish?

[@idestquodest]

@@rabbaniazzahra1784 finno-ugric

[@icevlad148]

"I know first hand were tributaries" First hand? Ludi, are you 700 years old?

[@LudietHistoria]

I was there, 3000 years ago....

[@ShikamaruDmx]

I was there, where strength of men failed...

[@Hadar1991]

@@LudietHistoria Ludi is a vampire, confirmed. :D

[@saygilibardak]

​@@LudietHistoria How can you be ther 3000 years ago while the earth is 2024 years old? 🤨

[@blue-d4g]

@@Hadar1991 Vampires don’t exist, my Romanian friends lived there for centuries and they say they never saw one.

[@JappeChristian]

2:59 "Vyatka, Nizhny Novgorod, Karachev I know first hand were also tributaries" Damn, Ludi is older than I thought, spent his early years gathering tribute from russian principalities for the Golden Horde

[@LudietHistoria]

They call me Vlad in those lands.

[@PELLIOTIS]

The romanian legend was a lie all along. It was always a muscovite one XD

[@Witch_King]

@@LudietHistoria Vlad von Carstein I bellieve?

[@LudietHistoria]

@@Witch_King you know too much now. I'm gonna have to make your wallet disappear.

[@stesnuash8986]

I don't get why is everyone so surprised about Ludi having first hand experience with 14th century russian principalities that paid tribute. The man was always a wallet stealer. 700 years and didn't change a bit. Pure-blooded Romanian

[@unchartedsteppes7138]

The Udmurt and Komi are both Permian Finno-Ugrics. Additionally, we know that the Finno-Ugric languages expanded westward from North Central Asia (Kazakh steppe) via the Seima-Turbino culture due to the sampling of Seima-Turbino graves and Indo-Iranian loans into the Finno-Ugric languages. It's unlikely that the Udmurts are migrants from Finland as the linguistic innovations align with other Permian groups like the Komi. Based on our present understanding of the phylogenetics, we can clearly say that the Ugrics are the most divergent Finno-Ugric group, who split after the Samoyedics (genetically, they are purely East Asian and highly divergent, which is why the Uralic grouping is certainly of Northern East Asian origin). The Magyars were likely a Ugric group related distantly to the Khanty and Mansi. They split around the dawn of the Seima-Turbino phenomenon (4,000 years ago) in the northern Uralic region. Vesakoski's Uralic Archaeolinguistics is the most up-to-date work in this regard. Furthermore, Asko Parpola has written extensively on Uralic cultural exchange with the Indo-Iranians, which he expanded upon heavily in 2017 in his book with Christian Carpelan. An interesting recent archaeological paper by Varga et al. also discusses the paternal origins of the Hungarian Aba family, which are likely to originate from Eastern Asia, the intermediary region where the Ugric groups, like the Khanty and Mansi, originate.

[@csaba1434]

Well said. It's really weird how Ludi knows lots of obscure historical facts, yet he thinks hungarians migrated from fucking finland.

[@SiberHavoc]

Glad someone pointed this out. Thank you. From my reading and research, it is widely accepted that Finns, Estonians, etc., the Baltic-Finnic groups, migrated from the Volga region westward. Never the other way around. Especially not when it came to a language/culture belonging to the Permic group of the Finno-Ugric language family. This can also, relating to what was said, be seen in the existing words of the given languages in the distribution of Germanic loan words. If the migration was from west to east, we'd see a different trend. One shouldn't link the Permic, Ugric, and Samoyedic groups to the region of Finland just because they happen to be part of a language group that has the word "Finno" in it, especially not a Permic one. It does a huge disservice to their beautiful language, heritage, and history with the land they live in. As someone who has great admiration for their cultural and linguistic siblings in Russia, it breaks my heart when people make strong statements like the one seen in the video without simply googling it first.

[@danvernier198]

Yeah this one is really odd, sure the progenitors of Sami, Finns, Estonians, Karelians and Ingrians migrated to live in the area near the baltic sea millennia before the Hungarians moved into Pannonia but the presumed "urheimat" of the language group is generally considered to be closer to where the Khanty and Mansi people live today.

[@Xazamas]

He simply got it backwards - very awkward, but it can easily happen when you do stuff unscripted.

[@oddindian1]

Ma finnnek érzem magam. Csak hogy ez megnyugtassa Ludit

[@WazirWilly]

No “bro fell off” comments? Damn those commenters fell off

[@cloroxbleach9222]

Novgorod better have the correct flag this time around 😭 (EU4 Novgorod's flag is take from the modern municipal flag which is from 2010!!!!)

[@LudietHistoria]

Too real

[@DedYefremiy]

I'm actually interested how is this handled, considering many if not the most of the countries might not actually have any national symbol at all at the time

[@cloroxbleach9222]

@@DedYefremiy I remember reading that if a historically accurate flag or banner can't be found Paradox usually goes for symbols, or features that are nowadays associated with a certain historical state, like the Americandians with their stylised versions of their modern flags. Which makes it even more confusing to me why Novgorod has the 2010 flag when there ARE sources that illustrate a couple of banners Novgorod used

[@TigonIII]

@@DedYefremiy I believe they try to at least represent a country by a coat of arms or dynastic symbol, but one of the problems with that is that it obviously changes when the dynasty does, which EU4 couldn't handle very well, but I'm certain they'll try to make the game engine for this being able to handle it.

[@oldrzym]

abt slav pagans: its almost impossible to determine the amount of pagans even right after the chistenin of rus because the church was kinda burning all the pagan sites and never wrote anything about them so that in churh's eyes they kinda didnt exist at all. at least "oficially". also pagans went kinda hiding into forests so nobody knew nothin about them tough topic to explore

[@LudietHistoria]

yeah this is very very true

[@Idonotwanthandle]

Also, it was probably not as "X% pagan, Y% christian", but as "X% of time people followed pagan rituals, Y% of time the same people followed christian rituals".

[@DominikPlaylists]

As a Polish person I can attest in 21st century still has a lot of slavic paganism in it. We have 6 out of 13 national holidays which are derived form the most important slavic holidays and only follow pre-christian traditions (they are allegedly the "christian" Epiphany, Corpus Christi, Easter Monday, Ascension, Pentecost, All Saints Day but the celebration predates christianity). 4 are purely christian celebrated similarly to how they are celebrated in non-slavic christian nations (Two days of Christmas, New Year, Easter Sunday). Not many, but some people, still call on the Peron (pieronie, pieroński) rather than Jesus or Mary.

[@negotive4303]

​@@DominikPlaylists Similar things happen in Russia. One of the biggest holidays in Russia is Maslenitsa - literally a pagan christianized holiday, where people burn a straw doll, dance around it, saying goodbye to winter. There are also many pagan beliefs and signs left: knock on wood to avoid the evil eye; sit down before leaving the house; if a black cat runs across the tree, it is not good, etc. There is also a belief in slavic creatures. The most famous is the house spirit "Domovoy" - the guardian of the house, as well as Baba Yaga, mermaids.

[@DominikPlaylists]

@@negotive4303 interesting. We have that too. It's the goddess Marzanna. This holiday did not make it though in poland and was banned by the church, but school children still do that as a part of curriculum iirc.

[@giogio51592]

надеюсь, что в рязани добавят модельки грибов с глазами

[@cooked_nails]

А анимация стаквайпа будет их поеданием?

[@hoyinching9313]

Russia in 1337 is more decentralized state which has a lot of possibilities when each principalities fighting their russia.

[@AntonSlavik]

You know first-hand? You're looking good for 650-odd years old.

[@LudietHistoria]

Thx i use face cream

[@Yes-qj4bi]

@@LudietHistoria interesting so you're Russian. When did you move to Romania?

[@AntonSlavik]

@@Yes-qj4bi Likely in the first vampire purge sometime in the 1600s. Legend has it, he turned Count Vlad Dracula himself.

[@alkuzkirill]

Virgin blood does indeed keep skin silky and youthful​@@LudietHistoria

[@McHobotheBobo]

Ludi the earliest disticntly Finno-Ugric peoples originally come from the Volga valley, spreading out in approx. 1200 BCE

[@McHobotheBobo]

They only arrived in Finland later

[@IronFatherJohn]

I can personally recommend "Medieval Russia, 980-1584" by Janet Martin. She was my professor in college. She retired about 10 years ago but her book is excellent and the book she would use for a college level class.

[@ostrobothnian9995]

Correction on the Udmurt and Komi thing: Both of them are Permian speakers who originate ultimately from the Bronze Age Ananyino culture. The borders between the two are not correct as for some reason Udmurts cover Perm proper. Also there are some weird Vepsian areas in the Mezen and Northern Dvina regions in which Komi should be instead, I don't know if this is meant to represent the Zavolochye Chud' or something but they're in the wrong location. As for Erzya, Moksha and Mari, they've been expelled around 200 years too early at this point and should not exist in Tatarstan and should instead be the majorities in their homelands. Mari should be between Vyatka and Vetluga, Erzya between Oka and Volga and the Moksha south of the Erzya. Udmurts should be between Vyatka and Kama with the Komi in and around the Perm region representing the Great Perm.

[@emper9756]

You should let the devs know in the dev diaries, noticed same issues aswell but I haven't read on this era much.

[@LudietHistoria]

yeah another dude here mentioned and checked, seems like you guys are right, I didn't know

[@ostrobothnian9995]

@@LudietHistoria No worries

[@Dimdariusz]

As a Russian, I can say that Slavic paganism kinda survived in the form of superstitions, mostly in rural areas and among rather poorly educated people. There are quite a lot of old ladies who can tell you about Domovoy (home guardian creature/spirit) or Vodyanoy (water creature/spirit that drowns people). I also believe there's a popular point of view among scientists that there never were a solid pantheon of gods worshipped by slavs (like the Hellenic pantheon), but just a lot of complex superstitions and anthropomorphisations of nature

[@Nerest322]

Не сохранилось никакого славянского язычества, не вводите людей в заблуждение

[@Dimdariusz]

@@Nerest322Ну я же сказал kinda сохранилось, имея в виду традиционную мифологию типа всяких кикимор, в которых люди до сих пор порой верят :р

[@ppp-vz1mi]

Our modern view of Slavic paganism is just stuff made up during Romantic era. It's not our own but stuff taken from Celtic, Germanic or Greek paganisms translated for us.

[@kaladore6798]

@@Dimdariuszбред, не верят. Такие же по всей европе есть чертики

[@protkrombere6828]

there are also a lot a people getting into old slavic tradition (Rodnovery) which is also very decentralised with everyone doing his thing (sometimes it's shady)

[@ЕгорКравец-т3е]

Severyane is actually one of the many tribes that populated the terrtory of modern Russia Belarus and Ukraine. By 1337, however, such "division" (if it even existed in the first place, we are not sure about that) had already lost all its meaning. So Paradox simply wanted to create a forth culture group for the region and named it after the tribes that lived there 300 years prior to the starting date of the game (even though Severyane populated a much smaller area). I doubt that you can even divide the population that lived there into four large and correct groups: its either Russians, Belorussians, Ukranians (which is also not historically accurate, cause people called themselves Rus back then, and even Lithuanianian Commonwealth was called "The Great Duchy of Lithuanians and Russians" - Великое княжество Литовское и Русское) or numerous local people that are even harder to deacribe as we do not have proper sources. So Severyane is something of a win-win decision: you find a fourth culture group and at the same time you somewhat preserve the historical accuracy and do not create the Holy Trinity of Russians Belorussians and Ukranians earlier than people actually started thinking about themselves that way

[@JPJ432]

Fun Fact about Russia: It was Russia who saved The Union during the American Civil War as they sent their Navy to San Francisco and New York when England and France were just about to enter the war on the side of the Confederates since London created the Confederates. France was already in Mexico making a spear head movement to resupply the Confederates and to open up a Pacific Theatre and to create a port in California. England already amassed 11,000 troops and growing stationed at their Northern Confederacies border now called Canada ready to open a Northern Theatre to divert Union troops away from their Southern Confederacy then to attack The Unions naval blockade. The Union would have been completely destroyed and annexed by those two great powers leaving the Confederates to exist as either a puppet state of London or to be fully brought back into the fold of the British Empire. London was already courting (threatening/bribing) other countries to get involved like Spain while Russia was in talks with Prussia to ally with incase London was to intervene. Seeing all of this Tsar Alexander II wrote a letter to Queen Victoria saying “If you enter in this war it will be a casus belli for all out war with the Russian Empire”. The stage was set for the 1st World War and Russia stopped it. There is also a memorial in San Francisco for the hundreds of Russian sailors who came off their Asiatic fleet ships that died while helping the city put out a fire that threatened to lay waste to it during the War.

[@JPJ432]

The Russian fleet also threatened to Shell Australian ports along with other British Pacific Colonies if Britain aided the Confederates. A confederate war ship spent a lot of time in Australian waters and was supported by the Australian public, some even signing on as crew members. This Confederate war ship laid waist to the US Pacific whaling fleet and is reported to have fired the last shot in the war. The name of the ship was called the CSS Shenandoah. Its surrender was at Liverpool England where Confederate Commander Bulloch was stationed. Bulloch was the head spy Chief for the Confederates and main go between for London, Montreal, and Richmond. He was heavily involved in the finance of the South with British banking and supplied the south with its warships as most of them were made by the British. He was good friends with those who drafted the Very discriminatory Confederate Constitution and those that would later create the 'Clan'. He was also heavily involved in the assassinations of Lincoln and his cabinet members. He was Also the Uncle to President Theodore Roosevelt (on his mothers side of course) and Teddy greatly looked up to him and learned much from him from a very early age. Teddy called him 'Uncle Jimmy'. This is where Teddy Roosevelt got the idea for the 'Eff Bee Eye' he modeled it almost exactly from Londons 'Em Eye Five'. Russia also helped Thailand (Kingdom of Siam) maintain its sovereignty from being completely Partitioned/Annexed from the British and French around the same time. The very word Thai (ไทย) means 'free man' in the Thai language which is partially to thank to the Russians as they might have ended up being a colony or part of another country/colony if not for their intervention.

[@rowanwalter6306]

I did not know Russia was this based, thank you for the information

[@Poctyk]

The same Russian navy that was walked over just a few years prior threatened Royal Navy?

[@Hamh7]

This game looks so good! hope Russia gets the historical accuracy it deserves.

[@ervinskatzen3699]

They can hire Putin for more accrucy haha😂😂

[@raku3n]

​@@ervinskatzen3699his accuracy is badd. Can say that as russian))

[@MWcrazyhorse]

Careful what you wish for.

[@Chfrchko-144]

​@@raku3nwhere exactly?

[@najak4773]

@@Chfrchko-144 lol

[@CoL_Drake]

"i know from first hand" ... you asked someone who ruled in 1337 ? because every first hand is dead for 650+ years xD

[@LudietHistoria]

I was there

[@specil-k]

V. G. Vlasov quotes the respected scholar of Slavic religion E. V. Anichkov, who, regarding Russia's Christianisation, said: "Christianization of the countryside was the work, not of the eleventh and twelfth, but of the fifteenth and sixteenth or even seventeenth century."

[@ppp-vz1mi]

I'm doubting if this happened so late. In Poland it is visible that Christianity started spreading into countryside something around 300 years after official adoption of christianity. We can trace it because Pagan people bury dead people in totally diffrent way.

[@ivan_kutyumov]

It is quite strange that there is a Kostroma principality, which includes Galich. I was born in Galich, and since childhood I have known that Kostroma and Galich were different principalities, which were gradually absorbed by Moscow btw why all principalities named like capital sity, but Muscovy... why not Moskow?

[@LudietHistoria]

you're right, they are 2 different principalities and should both be shown

[@timweihrauch4381]

Ludi, if you can believe it, I'm loving the book recommendations through these dev diaries. Please find a way to keep doing this.

[@bruh6_632]

Komi and Udmurt are both languages of Permic group of Finno-Ugric languages. Hungarians actually migrated from beyond Ural where all Finno-Ugrians originate

[@jm67544t]

Yep. Bit of a weird take by Ludi to think they all originated in Finland and migrated east

[@titusbaum9690]

Did they? Early Minoans were Finno-Ugric too

[@maksimsitnikov9758]

Vyatka was not principality at all) It was an outpost founded in 1367 by Novgorodian river expedition on the way to the east) in few years it became a somewat pirate-republic, the raided everybody near them and even once have had a bid raid on Holden Horde capital Sarai. But in the early 15th century they fall under rule of near Galich princes and then under Ivan the Teriible. why I know all of that?) I've born in the Kirov, which before 1934 is known as Vyatka)

[@McHobotheBobo]

I'm sure Western European sources on Eastern Europe are likely weaker than ideal as well

[@LudietHistoria]

I don't doubt that yeah

[@kubabrzyk2428]

Western better east have 30yeras of freedom and houndred yeras of curch autocrats and communism ocupation there is a lot of propaganda and unsience work we still lerning how to do a sience yes univercites work good but people are stupid i prefer a work of western historian they really free thinked and did good shit

[@Nickster292]

Probably both, some closer to reality and some to fiction, but us easterners sometimes do the same.

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

Not every region puts the same effort into recording their history. Indians barely cared at all for example as they thought reality was an illusion

[@adpraeter9403]

About tatar tributaries i agree. Only Northern states didn't pay the tribute: Pskov, Novgorod republic and Beloozero, and the ones that went under Lithuanian influence as they were too far away to reach from Sarai. Also there is quite a few border inaccuracies. Like Suzdal principality is definitely missing, should be released from Nizhniy Novgorod. Also Dmitrov should rather be called Galich principality as Galich was the main city. Some entities are questionable like Oreshek to the north, what is that i don't know, maybe it represents some Karel tribe or something, but they were all pretty much under Novgorod. Also Vyatka was quite a unique state as it was raiding Volga down the river all the way towards Sarai, the capital of Horde, It was somewhat of a river pirate republic. The people that were doing that were called ushkuyniks, river raiders, they also began exploring Western Siberia later on.

[@bartoszswieciak8341]

I assume Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma arent yellow because they are Muscovite vassals and the game doesn't register that they are tributaries also. Or maybe because they are vassals and tributaries the game doesn't know what color to paint them so it left it's default colors.

[@92Locutus]

Magyars were close neigours to finnish travelers to the udmurt area, not relatives, they only exchanged words, magyars are closer to bashkirs where nowdays bashkiria is, it is below the udmurt area, closer to the mari+bashkir area.

[@ВладимирТуров-и3в]

Komi, Karelians, Udmurts, Maris and Mordvins are all Finno-Ugrians. It is strange that only Finnish and Udmurt cultures are marked with the same color

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

It's not exactly the same colour, and for East Slavic cultures there doesn't seem to be a hard colour scheme (Ruthenians in blue while others are yellow-green-ish).

[@konplayz]

Severian culture isn’t real. Novgorodian Muscovite split is also very controversial

[@jemleye]

You got the Finno-Ugric migrations wrong way round. It is mostly agreed that Finnic peoples came from the Volga region, splitting then into the Udmurts and Komi (which are also Finno-Ugric!), Mari, Moksha, Erzya in the Volga region, and finally Balto-Finnics from Estonia to Karelia, Bjarmia, and Vepsia. I would have thought by this time there would be way more volga-finnic peoples in central Russia, where there still remain autonomous republics of Mari El and Mordva. Seems overly Muscovite atm.

[@Idonotwanthandle]

+1, there is waning minorities nowadays, there certainly should be some minorities back then. In some sparsely populated woodland locations maybe even as a majority.

[@alakazor9643]

​@@Idonotwanthandlede facto finno-ugric population in this area was insignificant to 1337. Thing is that they were mostly hunters and gatherers, while slavs who came here used crops, grown vegetables and herding as main sours of nutrient's. This allowed to sustain much more population and bigger cities, so they not only increased their numbers quicker, but (unintentionaly) assimilated locals by trading and incorporating them into their communities, so finno-ugras quickly became minorities almost everywhere.

[@jokemon9547]

​​​​@@alakazor9643Finno-Ugric groups west of the Urals (Permians, Mari, Mordvins and Baltic Finns) have been pastoralists and farmers for millennia. Majority also practiced hunting, specifically for furs, but it wasn't their main way of living in the 14th century. The one outlier in this were the Saami, who continued to mainly live as hunter gatherers until transitioning to reindeer herding around the 16th century. This was likely due to their more northern migration path, which meant they lacked farmable land and the conditions for it to be viable along with having less contact with southern groups, like the Indo-Iranians and Balto-Slavs.

[@alakazor9643]

@@jokemon9547 and for some reason everyone you listed survives in their historical areas till novadeys. Smaller ones -- who being small exactly because of their lifestyle, preventing them from rapidly increasing their strenght and thus resisting to newcomers, -- are assimilated or destroyed.

[@UbincaGarbungirov2019play]

@@jokemon9547 The Finno-Ugric peoples of the Eastern European plain at the time of colonization by the Slavs were engaged in hunting and gathering (the consequence of which, by the way, is their small number and high population density, which allowed them to assimilate to the Slavs). Where did you get the idea that they were engaged in agriculture and cattle breeding?

[@popkinbobkin]

Why are they going with the name "Muscovy" again ? It's not authentic, nobody in Russia even knows this word. Just write "Moscow" or "Moskva". The cultures are a mess as always. What the hell is Severian culture? In 1337? Pomors are not considered slavic? Even the word "Pomor" comes from the Russian language, they were largerly Russian-speaking slavs and finnic peoples. If they even made them finnic, why name them Pomor? Very weird.

[@chatnoir1224]

Moscow/Moskva - city. Muscovy - country. And yes, we in Russia know it was called "Московия"

[@popkinbobkin]

@@chatnoir1224 термин Московия в России никогда не использовался, это некорректный латинизм, который даже на западе вышел из употребления

[@ИванПетров-я6т9д]

@@popkinbobkin Московия это как Византия, всё верно. И в остальном полностью согласен, в особенности на счёт поморов в обе стороны. Хоть кто-то написал, спасибо.

[@dwarow2508]

@@chatnoir1224 Muscovy is Latin and the country is called Grand Duchy of Moscow. And no, in Russia it is simply called "Moskva".

[@charlemagne9449]

it should be Vladimir-Suzdal then

[@sleepingneco]

In fact, it looks like an attempt to humiliate Russia. Judge for yourself, French culture is not divided, German culture is not, but Russian culture is

[@cottagehardcoreultrasw3998]

german culture not being divided in low, middle and high german is soo stupid...

[@ShadeLightTheory]

Muscovy was the first nation I played in EU4 so cannot wait to try them in EU5!

[@vukanmilosavljevic4289]

Add navigable rivers or at least a couple of them. Ottomans sailed up the Danube into Romania, Serbia and Hungary and sometimes blocked or sieged stuff. Amazon,Nile, Volga, Danube, Indus, Missisipi and maybe Rheine. Volga should be much bigger at the delta and uncrossable at some parts. Galleys and transport should be able to enter rivers

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

Maybe the plague will be stronger in highly populated areas and barely affect low density regions

[@uan9166]

But what about Milano?

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

@@uan9166 some took measures to protect themselves, Poland too for example. But overall it's logical it hits big cities harder than sparse countrysides.

[@uan9166]

@@Duke_of_Lorraine I know, in my opinion the plague should affect historical regions unless you fulfill some hard requirements.

[@user98344]

I believe the most accurate depiction of the spread of the plague would be to be connected with trade routes and when a city is hit by it would trigger the pops to migrate in less populated areas spreading the plague in those areas too.

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

@@uan9166 with properly modelled trade and whatnot the result should be realistic, now yes some countries mostly unaffected should have an easier access to decisions to protect themselves. Though Poland was also helped by its low population density, its significant jewish population (less hit thanks to some hygienic rules) may have also had an effect on how to manage it. It's crazy how hindsight could help, imagine sending some modern doctors in the 1300s to tell exactly how to face the plague. Could avoid it almost entirely.

[@Anvellon]

Absolutely love the history lessons in the videos Ludi! Bought the "a history of Russia" book based on the recommendation and excited to learn more. The history degree coming in handy!

[@shmoosmith]

severian reminds me of the weird ryazanian culture in eu4 tbat doesnt make sense either

[@daunchannel3377]

So it has to show East European dialects which was Novgorodian, East russian, Central russian and south russian. From which then emarged into russian, belarussian and ukrainian language. So Severian is central russian dialect. But it has to have much more territory of belarus cuz this dialect was assimilated by belarussians and russians and particulary ukrainian

[@dwarow2508]

@@daunchannel3377 They could just all start out as Russian and via hidden conversions later change to Velikorussian, Malorussian and Belarussian

[@KeTsarl]

I hope that Orthodoxy will not be as radical and fanatical as in EU4, where converting everyone to the same faith was the easiest way to play. In reality, in Russia it was quite tolerant and slowly converted other nations. That is why there are some national republics in modern times. In the 19th century, the native orthodox people generally had fewer rights compared to russified german catholics and protestants.

[@GAMER123GAMING]

exactly

[@yunghooyung]

there are some national republics in modern times just because of soviet “korenisation” culture-building policy. and what do you mean by “fewer rights of orthodoxy people” ?

[@KeTsarl]

@@yunghooyung Catholics and Protestants did not pay tithes, did not serve in the army, and were not obliged to attend church under threat of criminal punishment. All republics were created on the basis of existing nationalities who preserved their faith and culture while in the game, there is almost no religious tolerance among the Orthodox, only mass conversions.

[@malutkamoia]

In 2021 gave a concert with band in Bryansk, lead singer born there, cool to see it in game, Bryansk to Russia campaign lesgooo

[@wolf666min7]

I can't wait for ludi to shred the balkan dev diary 😅. Another great explanation of the dev diary there with facts. Greatly appreciate the fact you point out your sources used as well 👌

[@niewiarygodny6853]

@21:32 saltpeter might appear after specific year/technology. At least thats my assumption, some goods might work similar to Coal as in Eu4

[@AragaHIme]

Novgorod title looks so abused

[@iltizioerrante7239]

Here before the "bro fell off" memes

[@antonslavik4907]

About the plagues, we were also much cleaner. Banya at least once per week.

[@menschenfresser1068]

Wow, I didn't expect Ludi to be really knowledgeable about Russian history, my respect

[@peachprincess758]

Great video as always!!

[@the_naf1]

Про религию. Формальное крещение произошло в 988 году. Но считается что переход всех русских земель произошел во второй половине 11 века. Но огромное большинство населения не отказывались от религиозных обычаев, праздников, примет и правил. Даже сегодня в России празднуются языческие праздники. Один из примеров - масленица, день, чествовавший бога солнца Ярилу и все еще справляется сжиганием большого чучела и народных гуляний. Приметы, уходящие в славянские язычество тоже используется (в основном только старшим поколением)

[@ИванПетров-я6т9д]

Чучело стали жечь в советское время, почитай, поищи об этом. Называть масленицу языческим праздником это из того разряда, что и украденное Рождество. Почему же она зовётся масленицей, уж не потому ли, что стоит между мясопустом и Великим постом?

[@rakopelo]

14:11 wait wasnt it the other way around? everywhere i look it says that the finns arrived *into* present day findland from the urals, rather than finland being their original homeland

[@siberiancovers8966]

13:40 Greetings! Severians indeed lived in border area between modern Ukraine and Russia. I guess they wanted to fill West Russia with Severians? There were different East Slavic cultures around the cities of Riazanj, Tverj, Smalensk, Pskov, Viatka, Kostroma: they should have their own cultures in EU5 too. I wanna add they have added Pomors (the purple guys at 13:45), which is another Slavic culture from the modern Arhangeljsk region (not sure why did they not count them as East Slavs in the blog post)! Hope they will also add Siberiaks/Chaldons when you colonize Siberia as e.g. Novgorod, because when the English colonize North America in EU4, they become ethnic Americans in newly settled provinces too.

[@ИльясИзбасаров-ч9э]

11:26 Komi-san simps when they discover about Komi people: 🤯

[@3aToi4u]

I like how they accurately represented the severe deficit of iron, which plagued economic development for a looong time.

[@le_krya]

Why "Karachev principality" have other - non Rurikid - dynasty? They ruler's as example - Titus (real name, yeah) of Karachev - actually originated from Olgovich's house - a Chernygovian part of Rurikid dynasty. By my pov would be bettter if Karachev as principality been replaced to "Kozelsk principality" which actually was high ranked in hierarchy

[@Zimisce85]

What do you think about the existence of the principality of Perm in general? If I follow Wikipedia, there was not even a village canned Perm until the 17th century, even less a principality of the same name. Maybe there was another Russian principality covering at least part of the Uralic area in the late middle ages, by another name? If not, the existence of the vassal Perm is an inaccuracy in eu4 as well.

[@VladislavKobzarev]

The entire thing with depicting slavic paganism is very tough and will be controversial because there is literaly no way it could be depicted correctly because of how the game works. There will be no sources, but I'm russian myself and really interested in this topic and have some knowledge in it. The only thing I hear about religious situation in the lands of eastern slavs after christianisation is that people were considering themselves christians but still practiced a ton of pagan rituals. Even to this days, most of the russians celebrate pagan holidays (Maslenitsa, Kupala night) and have pagan believes, for example in some mythical creatures, such as Domovoy. So if any book says that there were some pagan practices in some area, it does not mean that these people were pagans. If someone asked these people about their religion, they would most likely say that they are christians. So, I would say that there were no proper pagans anymore. But, of course, I'm not a theologist or a historian, so I might be wrong and there might have been some small groups of people that practiced proper paganism and never even heard about Jesus.

[@jorgovan-ni9kz]

20:444 since im wearing headphones i thought for a second i had a mosquito near me when that violin type of sound started hahaha

[@Kalenderz35]

20:44

[@oleksacrowley9580]

Yes, Severins is a weird choice, so as moscovites. Moksha are finnougric as well.

[@Nastya_07]

13:49 On the spread of the Finno-Ugrians, their homeland was probably in the Central Ural region, and their spread is tied with the arrival of the Seima-Turbino phenomenon in the region, then the Ugrians (which include the ancestors of the Hungarians) stayed around the homeland but also expanded to the east, while the Finno-Permians migrated westwards Komi (which is actually 3 languages) and Udmurt are Permic languages, being closer to each other than to any other Uralic languages

[@lookas1863]

I think the religion depicted in golden horde is actually tengri, that's what I got from the Tinto talks

[@calmkat9032]

I'm not sure why they're even coloring tributaries differently, since it isn't a subject type (or if it is, that's redundant). They said these nations are members of the Internation Organization, Tatar Yoke, so that should only show up on a map mode for that. It's probably a placeholder.

[@catalyst9955]

the russian thunderdome looks really fun ngl, the historical innacuracies are disappointing but they have enough examples of good accuracy to make a reason for it being that way

[@lynx1794]

Not gonna lie, listening to the part where Ludi is explaining the Finnu-Ugric migrations ass backwards was very painful 😑

[@LudietHistoria]

yeah I didn't get that one right xD

[@Idonotwanthandle]

Huh, just realised, why everyone migrate westward? Why can't there be few nations which migrated eastward?

[@cassu6]

@@IdonotwanthandleI guess too many people in the East so people decided to find some new land

[@jokemon9547]

​​@@IdonotwanthandleSamoyedic groups, which are the sister branch to Finno-Ugric, did migrate east and southeast. Some Samoyeds groups lived around the Sayan mountains and lake Baikal regions. The Khakass people, a Turkic group, has aspects of assimilated Samoyeds. They also have a specific tribal/clan subdivision named after Samoyeds and they are genetically closer to them than the other Turkic people around them.

[@Insanemasters]

Nice understanding of russian history, Ludi! Keep it up great work.

[@rondelracing3475]

Wow! That's an awesome breakdown. Thank you very much! About Black Death, I'm from Russia and I remember how it was described in our history class. It was said that because of population density, and poor trade relations. The territories of russia had little trade with others (relative to western Europe). It would be good if they added special modifiers where population density is taken into account. Also on lessons told that on the past experience people began to go to baths regularly and to wash dishes. But I do not think that in this respect Russ differs from Western Europe in fact.

[@Greg_Abandoned]

I just bought a book The Soviet Century… we really live in a simulation

[@madchessLeviathan]

if you consider the source of Orvar Oddr's saga the Finns should be sort of tributaries of Sweden, maybe a bit like the Rus principalities and the Golden Horde

[@ayanned]

You're really tempting me ludi to buy euv outright than waiting for 10 years.

[@AdavidPT]

I'm going to stock on popcorns by anticipation, because I can't wait for Ludi to to Barcelona and do a Vlad after the next post :D

[@QiuSe]

12:00 I would assume they count Pomors as East Slavic culture, which would make it 4? At least it would make sense, given that Pomors were Novgorodian settlers on the White Sea coast

[@dwarow2508]

Those are all Russian sub cultures, no whole seperate cultures

[@bootmii98]

​@@dwarow2508it's at least as distinct from Muscovite as Ukrainian and Belarusian are

[@dwarow2508]

@@bootmii98 Thats like saying Saxon is just as different from German as Hanoveranian xD

[@VoxDargard]

I think another way of what you're saying regarding the x% of populations is that there are not the same sort of quantity of data points that we have progressively more of up to modern day that allow for the sort of relatively precise statistical analysis of population percentages. (Trying to reword "That's not how history works" to something that may be more compelling). So it's necessary to, as you put it, read multiple sources and get a whole body picture of the situation and then make reasonably educated guesses as to a likely/reasonable amount of the population that may have fit a particular type. Additionally, I think it's worth noting that there were very likely hybrid religious areas in some of these lands, where there may have been a church, and the people may have attended and worshipped at the church, but they also may have celebrated certain seasonal rites that were traditional to them but could also have been viewed as religious in their origins. And in those areas, how many of the people "worshipping" at the church may have also been worshipping their pagan gods as well? How does the game want to treat those people, etc. Functionally I don't think anyone is going to get too mad if it's 3% or 7% or 15% or whatever unless that number starts to have a substantive impact on gameplay that sticks out, and the number is *also* at an extreme end of what seems like an acceptable spectrum.

[@felipegouveia9204]

Loved to see the defense of the historian knowledge.

[@Mot1956]

Komi are also finno-ugric as well as Karelians. There are also Mari and many other finno-ugric People that still live in Russia. Pomori are Slavs (Russians) with Finno-ugric influence. At least those Pomori who are called that today. We know that People spoke the same language before the Yoke between all of the Rus` except for Novgorodians. Modern Russian is Vladimiro-Kievan language mixed with Novgorodians, while Ukr and Belarus are mixed with Polish and Lithuanian because of the Yoke.

[@unregierbar7694]

Looking forward to play Muscovy.

[@ivan-on1fq]

I don't like how Volga Bulgaria has been conquered for 101 years but is not represented

[@bildrogas]

It's one of those channels that you watch almost always for like 2 years, without realising you haven't subscribed yet :D

[@eunickissimo]

What if you can get that gunpowder stuff later from specific building? Or it's latent like coal in EU4 and you may be able to develop production/chance tradegood somehow but it's probably very costly so at the beginning only very structured and/or large empires would be able to afford it

[@RoberttheWise]

23:25 I'm not sure what you mean by that point. If the plague mortality is implemented to hit everyone equally by killing 30% or 50% of the population then the lower initial populations will in some sense come out on top. The relative proportions between the pops still will be the same but in absolute terms the advantage the west has will shrink by the mortality rate. So the whole population graph kinda gets flattened if that description makes sense. By the way it's still might be the case that Ludi is right about the east needing to experience lower mortality rate from the plague, I'm not arguing that. I'm just confused about what he means by saying that a fixed mortality rate hits the lower initial populations of the east harder than the higher ones of the west when if anything it is the other way round.

[@LudietHistoria]

What I mean by it is that despite france and england losing up to 60% of the population, from historical records eastern europe lost around 30 to 40% of their population. So if east europe loses the same percentage as the west it's dumb. The lowered population in the west is the reason poland for example emerged as a major power in the 13-1400s

[@RoberttheWise]

@@LudietHistoria Ok, that makes sense. If they don't just want to hard code different mortality rates then they probably should scale it with the location's development to represent more densely populated regions being more susceptible.

[@HanakoSeishin]

There are still many traces of paganism in Russia today, but as another person pointed out it's not that x% of people are orthodox and y% are pagan, it's that the same people follow x% orthodox rituals and y% pagan rituals, it just all mixed up into the folk version of what they think is orthodoxy.

[@historyrepeat402]

You should add the books you have read more often, it’s actually a great resource.

[@jkg8108]

One thing I am curious about is if nation formations will unify and create new cultures. If you form Russia, would it convert Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severia into Russian? If so, would it be instantaneously (which would be wildly inaccurate) or a gradual population identity change? Perhaps they'll add a feature where higher centralization could lead to more unified cultures. Its a slippery slope though.

[@MattFerr100]

18:32 check again Ludi that's catholicism, Sami Shamanism is the one in Kola and northern Finalnd

[@LudietHistoria]

oh shit you're right

[@lunalingo4461]

​@@LudietHistoria Haha rare ludi L

[@italiansandvich6]

Ludi the reason nizhny and kostroma are not tributaries is because they'd be directly under muscovy first who is a tributary to the horde. Vyatka might be in a similar situation

[@Apokrif82]

Только вот Вятка не была под Москвой до 1459. Это вообще пиратская республика.

[@jabolmax]

I am not a specialist in this era and region, but wouldn't it be better to divide them into northern, central and southern Ruthenians? only as a result of the player's actions, different cultures are distinguished from them, such as Russian Novgorodian or Ukrainian

[@ИванПетров-я6т9д]

It would be.

[@sprained5]

Responding to the black death part: Would it not be more appropriate if it scales to population density? Meaning it might be 60% of 12 mil for west (leaving ~4.8 mil pops) and 20% of 6 mil for east (leaving 4.8 mil pops). Possibly with another scaler that takes account for survives of a plaque in the last 50 years

[@jovanpejic]

In addition, we have been Orthodox Christians for over 1000 years, and even today, among the people, the Serbian part of the Orthodox Church and customs is still 70-80% based on the old Slavic religion. We still know the names of most of the gods, and all the customs for holidays are old customs from the "time of the god Perun." So, in those years around 1300, it was certainly even more pronounced.

[@DualTheEggist]

Ludi you're wrong about the Udmurts because although they are a Finno-Ugric people, so are the Komi, Mari, Erzya, Moksha and Vepsians. In fact the Udmurts are more colesely related to the Komi than to the Finns, as Komi and Udmurt are both in the Permic branch of the Finno-Ugric family. Also the Finno-Ugric family is divided into 2 main groups, Finnic, and Ugric; similar to how Indo-European is divided into a European and an Indo-Iranian branch. In the Finnic branch we have various sub-branches, being the Finno-Karelians, the Sami, Permians, Mari and Mordvins. However the Magyars are in the Ugric branch, although many tribes of the Mogyer confederacy were Bashkir, Khazar, Mari and Mordvin. So no the Udmurts aren't closely related to the Magyars. They're about as closely related as the Germans and the Iranians.

[@scubandym1941]

I agree 100% with everything you have said, however my concern is that we could have another Victoria 3 launch. Historical accuracy is important, but they need to make EU 5 a fun game to play.

[@Konung82]

well Severians are the only culture i know off. novgorodian, moscovite and ruthenian cultures were never existed, just made up by Paradox for game porposes i presume. and Ludi Finns never migrated to the east, all northern part from todays Finland and to Ural were Finno-ugric tribes, its just when Slavs migrated to the north, they cut them on to two parts

[@AEH-df7ho]

Even severians last mentioned in 1024. Them existing in 1337 is just plain wrong

[@dwarow2508]

Severian is like Swabian or Bavarian. It is a sub culture of Russian that lost meaning by the 14th century long ago. The general culture was Russian back then, both in Novgorod and in Galicia

[@memphissander3512]

man the shit that went on in Novgorod before the unification of russia is sad. Novgorod was so horribly incompetent it's crazy.

[@dwarow2508]

Immidiate Red Flags: 1. Moscow is called Muscovy instead of Moscow or Moskva 2. Tributaries as you pointed out 3. Cultures are completely wrong. By the 14th century there was no such thing as Novgorodian, Muscovite, Severian or Ruthenian culture. Generally speaking the population identified as Russian with local duchies having their own particularities. Having a Ruthunian culture at all, let alone in the 14th century, is equally nonsensical as Ruthenian just means Russian in latin. Why those are also diferent cultural areas when up until the late 15th century there were virtually no cultural or linguistic differences between the slavs in Galicia, the Slavs in Novgorod or the Slavs in Moscow is beyond me. The historic region of Ruthenia was a term invented by the Poles to refer to Russia in Latin. Thats it. In Polish, Novogorod and Vladimir were just as "Ruthenian" as they were Russian. By the 14th century, the culture of former medieval Russia in a broader sense (like German, French etc.) was very much one including for the territories under Lithuanian occupation. 4. Severian is like an east Slavic equivalent to Saxon or Swabian. It is a Russian sub culture. It would stop being a relevant culture the moment medieval Russia was founded and established by the late 10th century. After that the entire region should have the "Russian" culture untilt the late 15th century by which time the cultures would be devided into "Velikorussian", "Malorussian" and "Belarussian" (and Severorussian if Moscow does not take Novgorod). That is generally how the cultures developed in reality and how they were percieved both locally and in the historical cencus.

[@funnyguy4217]

plot twist, they were always inaccurate, but you didnt notice, because they weren't talking about your region

[@Tzeentch1989]

Technically KArelian and Finnisch are part of the Finno-Ugric Branch which migrated out of the Uralic region, the Magyars migrating southwards towards Pannonia in the early middle ages. So I am not sure that they went around the north to become the Udmurt people, I suppose the Udmurt stayed there and the Finns moved away?

[@TheMadsWeaponEngineer]

there is academic source in sweden that speak of old story and tell that still add Norse pratice in the 18th century in sweden , they was surely still Norse pagan in sweden and norway

[@paulbriot1404]

Hello, thank you for the video, what kind of books did you read about the history of Romania?

[@CatladyAyaki]

Love you Ludi!!! :)

[@danreed88]

They need to have autonomous vassals in this game extremely important and extremely historically accurate. No more 10 year integrations that stuff is weird and not realistic. I also believe it will make playing a vassal more fun.

[@frozentsar]

Talking so much about Leaders converting to a different religion has me thinking of the Age of Reformation, I assume there will be a modifier to convert the population to Protestant, Anglican, Reformed, ETC

[@JiriOxa]

I am not sure but i think that severians can be something like descedants of variags (why severians ... from slavic word SEVER = NORTH; northerners). But to this period, this statement does not fit me. I'm sending greetings from the Czech Republic

[@Dolphin192]

I want this game to be as accurate as possible.

[@Kalenderz35]

Novgorod would be fun to play