Mana Crypt, Dockside Extortionist, Jeweled Lotus, and Nadu Just Got BANNED In Commander!

[@Hemlocker]

Regarding the "encouraging a slower pace" thing, that's not actually a new philosophy. It is consistent with several existing bans, such as Fastbond, Black Lotus, Channel, the power Moxes. It just feels like a new thing because it's been so goddamn long.

[@Ian_Dierks]

Yes, but where is the line? Are they going to ban all of the 0 cmc artifacts? What about mana dorks?

[@hermodnitter3902]

​@@Ian_Dierksban Llanowar Elves, lol... 🤣

[@Ian_Dierks]

@@hermodnitter3902 LOL watch them ban Elvish Mystic instead and then leave Llanowar Elves for some arbitrary reason.

[@hermodnitter3902]

@@Ian_Dierks well, it's iconic, so that obviously matters ;)

[@Preaplanes]

​​@@Ian_DierksI mean, fast mana arties? Probably. Anything that pays for itself the turn it comes down, with POSSIBLE exception of some of the weird, chunky blue "untap the islands you used to pay for this" spells, should probably be looked at.

[@AutkastKain]

"Sol Ring is a pillar" reads to me as 'WotC won't let us make almost every precon illegal out of the box'

[@peewee0224]

and yet they banned 4 cards that have insane reprint value attached to them.

[@danwilson9522]

@@peewee0224 WotC got their reprint equity out before they got banned with that Mana Crypt variant coming out a year ago. RC already said they talk to WotC a little more than a year in advanced so I doubt WotC minds them being banned now

[@peewee0224]

@@danwilson9522 they didn't mana crypt was still pulling at 210 the reprint didnt effect the price at all

[@forceofwillhk]

@@danwilson9522 WOTC must have told the RC to wait. Otherwise their sales pitch would be a joke

[@JStack]

@@peewee0224reprint value is very different from the tens of commander products they currently have for sale being no longer legal in commander lol

[@almogdov]

I mean, the only reason these cards are pricey is because wizards have been very stingy with reprints and making them super chase cards on purpose. So be mad at wizards, not at the RC.

[@j.hartman120]

They don’t ban pricey cards because they’re expensive. Timetwister, Tabernacle, Cradle, etc. all legal. Dual lands, legal. So that’s not a good argument.

[@almogdov]

@@j.hartman120 I don't think you understood my comment. From what I've seen most of the hate this banning gets is because those cards are pricey and how dare the RC ban pricey cards. But it's backwards, the reason those cards are pricey is because of wizards, so if someone is mad that they "ruined" their collection by banning pricey cards, they should direct that anger towards wizards.

[@esconde9922]

overall feel pretty sour on it because if these things were an issue, why did they take so long to address? sol ring getting a pass also feels like a lame excuse given their ban logic.

[@DuxBellorum13]

Likely how it worked was the Commander Rules committee went to Wizards to advise they were planning to ban Crypt, lotus, and dockside. Wizards advised that they were already printing them in upcoming sets (sets are worked on years in advance) and that their hands were tied until a certain time frame after the reprinting. Since that time frame had now passed and they were already planning to make the Nadu ban, these were added on. WotC probably straight up nixed any discussion of banning sol ring.

[@Toothbresh]

@@DuxBellorum13 They released Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt THIS YEAR as chase cards... No shot they talked to WotC about any of this

[@thesamuraiman]

​@@Toothbresh Correct. Which is why they got banned *after* those sets released.

[@Toothbresh]

@@thesamuraiman Mana Crypt has been a card since fucking 1997? Ban it now?

[@travis_approved]

Idk man I can never see them bannning sol ring on its iconic status along. Would be a shame for every single precon to be illegal off the shelf, but I understand and appreciate the frustration

[@wadehansen3085]

Maybe my opinion is a "casual peasant" one but im both fine to see the bans happen and Sol Ring left alone. To date the most expensive card i own is a "The Great Henge" that i spent a week mulling over before getting it for just my favorite green deck. I never like how sometimes a hobby has the "Cardboard Stock Market" going on. Everyone can have a Sol Ring its less then a quarter, no need for 2-300 dollars to speed run a game supposedly is meant to be fun for 4+ people

[@kurtf3441]

The "Sol Ring is a pillar" argument sucks. There is no interesting or unique gameplay that is created by a turn 1 Sol Ring. Just that the entire game is now warped around the player who played it. Compare that to Brainstorm in Legacy, another card that by all statistical metrics should be banned, however it survives because of the interesting, complex, and thought-provoking gameplay it creates. Legacy would be a worse format without Brainstorm, because it would be less interesting. Sol Ring does not create new gameplay in this way, just that sometimes one player randomly wins because their mulligan was better, which is probably the reason they want to keep it, so that little Timmy gets a win every once in a while.

[@wessmit3223]

Or that precons (the entry point) would become invalid. Which is a problem.

[@Goodfacts-hj2zf]

The real issue isn’t precons or it being a pillar or anything like that. It is just a logistical nightmare to ban sok ting because now almost every deck would have to replace a card and precons need to be edited immediately and people who aren’t tuned into the ban lost are now going to be told their decks are illegal. We’re stuck with sol ring it’s pointless to argue that it should be banned because it won’t

[@RyanEglitis]

Both banned > Neither banned > Only one banned

[@ms.sysbit5511]

I don’t fully agree but if you think of Sol Ring like this I understand their sentiment. Note: I still think banning it is better for format health gameplay wise. I sorta get it. It’s kinda like if your favorite band had to drop their best song. Y’know the one song by them everybody knows.

[@alexanderhenderson5583]

​@@RyanEglitisI disagree. Commander is a singleton format, with a lot of variance. Having 10 sources of fast mana in a deck is very different from having only 3 or 4. I'm all for reducing the amount of fast mana, but not having it entirely. And if it isn't going to be banned entirely, keep the cards that we plebs can afford to buy.

[@Joshy_369]

Can we vote on the rules committee members?

[@RyanEglitis]

😂 haha good one!

[@abeybaebe2514]

As long as you have a driver's licence

[@AliB.-kd7mt]

As long as you know their address

[@adammorin2955]

The rc is probably judges tbf

[@nevsterk2463]

@@AliB.-kd7mtat this point I would love to know their address

[@mechazard9883]

My main issue with banning jeweled lotus and mana crypt is that wotc has been dangling reprints of these cards to promote sets like lci and commander masters. Gives me massive Yu-Gi-Oh vibes because konami is notorious for bans like this

[@broodwarjc1517]

That is a WotC problem then, as they have had years to reprint them more and in greater number and less cost, but refused too.

[@adoo765]

Thats why they banned these cards, to make a statement: stop making commander stuff, give us magic, why do you think they banned nadu instead of tergrid if she is even worst? Nadu was made for COMMANDER, the lotus was made for COMMANDER

[@dustinchang5089]

That’s a little scummy.

[@SpoonsDebonair]

The RC don't make those decisions and if they allowed wotc printing chase cards to impact what they can or cannot ban then the RC may as well hand the format over to wotc.

[@lordxmugen]

@@SpoonsDebonair they kind of already do. they could fix a lot of problems with the format that would help rando playgroups be more enjoyable. but they dont because then WOTC would crack the whip.

[@robertwatson4840]

I am frustrated about losing money but these are long overdue. That said, I think cEDH should consider forming their own banlist, after seeing what the effects of these bans bring to the format.

[@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914]

there is : competitive commander is called Duel Commander. In march i played my first tournament , duel commander. Everyone knew Sol Ring is banned. It has been for a while

[@FearOgre]

The rocks were fine

[@guilhermebasso9219]

This will not make it happen.

[@moichamoy2274]

​@@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914 Duel commander is different from CEDH. If I recall duel is 20 life and just 2 players yes it is used for competitive play as well but CEDH is 40 life and can be played in 4 player pods

[@PHub-jw8so]

@@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914duel commander is not the same as cEDH

[@carbide4458]

The problems with these bans: they should've been banned years ago. Minus Nadu, because ya know, didn't exist yet. EDIT: I'd have added the One Ring to this list.

[@vividsyntax5301]

Great video. On Nadu: I think you're correct that Nadu is not played heavily, but in my experience, it's an unofficial ban. I and several friends have had the unfortunate experience of playing against it in our pods, and it's exactly what the RC describes. Luckily the folks I play with are cool and dismantled the decks after one game because they realized that it wasn't fun for anyone (pilot included - nobody can talk to them or anyone for 15 minutes because it's so fiddly). Glad to see it gone.

[@ZeronXenixal]

Coming from someone who detests fast mana (and by extension free counter spells), I would 100% be behind Sol ring leaving.

[@brianpendleton2674]

Those are the fun cards though? Lol, you must be great at parties.

[@Lucarioguild7]

Same but I understand that banning Sol Ring would be a logistical nightmare so I get why they abstained from pulling the trigger on it

[@axelbrackeniers5488]

I wouldnt care if Sol Ring was banned. But you also have to remember that its an 80 cent card thats in every deck. Is it really bannable if literally every deck has it?

[@moop9042]

I understand and agree with these bans, even as someone who opened a Mana Crypt from Ixalan. That being said, not touching Sol Ring is laughable given all their reasoning for banning the rest of these cards.

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

I play partially because I enjoy playing Sol Ring. I wouldn't play if it weren't for that card. Similar to brainstorm in legacy.

[@Icameron259]

A ban on Sol Ring would make every current precon illegal put of the box, that's probably the main reason it wasn't banned. If we stop seeing precons printed with Sol Ring included, I would take it as a prelude to a ban.

[@Martin-qb2mw]

​@@Arctanis-vt3hl okay, let's not ban this problematic and overpowered card because random user in youtube comments likes to play it. Got it.

[@walrider8073]

Sol Ring is powerful, but its still the "weakest" of all the fast mana cards. Plus: It will now be harder to mulligan for fast mana in your starting hand, which people have been doing. Because when you run 5+ fast mana cards in your deck its worth the risc. Now it is just Ancient Tomb and Sol Ring? Maybe Mana Vault? Way more risky to mulligan for these cards.

[@Rikka_Igana]

​@@Arctanis-vt3hlthen do you just mope in the majority of games when you don't see it? I can't imagine just playing for a chance to play to just play sol ring.

[@benvictim]

THANK YOU for being one of the few people I seen who have been talking like "Rule 0 doesn't work if you are doing a lot of pick up games". Yes you can try to rule 0 those games... but it doesn't work as well as if you had a constent group. As someone who travels for 10 out of 12 months a year, I have seen a wide range of just... rule 0 not working out. Especially when you don't have much time and you want to play magic, you get kind of stuck with what you get.

[@kkhello823]

This argument is dated I also play all over constantly getting pick up games. Years ago sure, now people know the power level conversion. When you say 7 these aren’t in people’s deck and on the very rare occasions. They are people explain to them that these cards in your deck actually make it high power. So next time say that so we know what to play. I haven’t run across anybody who didn’t understand this in over a year.

[@benvictim]

@@kkhello823 well good for you, just last week in Kansas City I sat down at a pick up game at a game shop and ended up with a player who claimed their omnath deck wasn't like the standard omnath deck. Short on time and wanting to play, myself and another agreed to play despite asking him to switch for 10 minutes. Hint: it was exactly the omnath deck we thought it was going to be.

[@kozad86]

Yup. Kinda hard to shuffle cards in and out of decks even if you don't live out of a duffle bag.

[@kkhello823]

@@benvictim If they follow through all the way with this new ban philosophy the game becomes a green based hellscape. They talk about how this creates a snowball effect but green gets to have 10 mana turn 4 and nobody bats an eye. When I play casual lower power 6-7 itisalready like this. It feels so unfair if I'm not playing a green based deck. It's so easy to have 5+ mana turn 3 and an insane amount by turn 5 or more. Turn 6 your mana is doubled and you doing insane things mean while if you aren't green or to an extent white. Tough luck have fun with 2 or 3 cost mana rocks that get blown up at the drop of a hat. An Omnath deck will be busted not bc of these cards or other fast mana. I’ll be good bc the commander is good and the strategy is good. If you come across these types of decks explaining that this is a high powered deck so I will be playing a HP deck gives you a chance to play with these cards. And a way that a non green or white based deck can fight back. I get that they get to use these cards to and it makes there deck better but without them they will be miles better than your deck without them.

[@FearOgre]

@@kkhello823 "explain to them that these cards in your deck actually make it high power." Ah yes, this classic failed Tox-Keeper thinking

[@sattoriemei3210]

So I believe from Jim Lapage on X today, "We've been talking about these bans with each other, with Wizards (so they can do their own communications and align bans with MTGO) for a little over a year now." So WotC printed those expensive Mana Crypt versions in LCI collector boxes, and of course the Jeweled Lotus, knowing that they are getting banned anyways...

[@brenp403]

They make sets years in advance though

[@sattoriemei3210]

@@brenp403 That includes the festival in a box?

[@forceofwillhk]

@@brenp403 yes they do. so could the RC announce the banlist when LCI came out too! but that didn't happen. I wonder why

[@VexylObby]

@@Northernheros Nonsense. That is a lot better than banning it when they could have. People are at fault for spending large amounts of money on this game anyways.

[@Lucarioguild7]

@@Northernheros Good anyone dropping hundreds of dollars on singular cards just learned a valuable lesson

[@jasonkorf7700]

Fine with the bans, but I do feel bad for those who invested money into these cards for their Commander decks. I also feel bad for the members of RC and Commander Advisory Group, cause I'm sure they are getting blasted by some for the bannings. Yet, there were people calling out for bannings earlier for Dockside and when Jeweled Lotus was first printed, saying the RC doesn't do anything. They really are in a no win situation.

[@rafaelbordoni516]

I was thinking the exact same thing, lmao. I think they did the best thing here by banning these 3 and not Sol Ring, this probably keeps the most amount of people who actually support the format happy.

[@tking5218]

I play cEDH primarily. Nadu, Jeweled Lotus, and Dockside needed bans in my opinion. Mana Crypt should have been banned from the start of commander along with Sol Ring. These cards are polarizing to the same extent with Sol Ring being a turn behind Mana Crypt on cast. An Iconic card literally gets all the hate when played in the first 3 turns should depict it's only been accepted because it's been reprinted to death.

[@metaldudebuff92]

I would have some sympathy for the RC if they weren't some self appointed group outside of the makers and owners of the company. Let's not act like they haven't been sitting on this announcement for a while so they could all off load their crypt, lotus, and dockside supplies.

[@adamlay7317]

They should have been more proactive and hit these way sooner before they became staples

[@magnusprime962]

@@metaldudebuff92That’s a big accusation to make. Do you have any proof?

[@retro.7673]

“Sol ring is too iconic” AKA: we put it in every precon so we don’t want new players to have an incomplete deck. (Yes I know about Painbow)

[@chrisvanderheiden12]

The RC didn't put sol ring in all the precons, wotc did

[@burnsboy101]

The RC doesn’t make the precons

[@thatepicwizardguy]

sol ring would be my first ban as a rules committee member. wotc be damned. it's an iconic gamewarping card which is a BAD thing according to every single big ban they've made lol

[@ms.sysbit5511]

I don’t fully agree but if you think of Sol Ring like this I understand their sentiment. I sorta get it. It’s kinda like if your favorite band had to drop their best song. Y’know the one song by them everybody knows. I think in that context their stance makes sense. I don’t agree but I understand why they’d feel that way.

[@dustinchang5089]

This is why I don’t think WoTC should ever have put skin into the EDH game.

[@robboomsma6739]

I really appreciated this video. I feel you tried to convey what the RC was trying to accomplish, provided your perspective and didn't just go for hot takes to get more reactions. Your rule zero commentary at the end was spot on!

[@adamlay7317]

I think its rediculous that this happened after wizards burned some reprint equity and these were just chase cards in prety recent sets.

[@BRIKHOS]

And yet, if they don't do it now, and they do it later, then more people have bought them and the prices are even higher. When is the right time to ban problematic, expensive cards?

[@asnsensation]

Unless you're selling the card the price of it is irrelevant and if you're playing with it I'd argue your getting your value through enjoyment.

[@jmcomparan]

@@BRIKHOSEasy, shortly after a big printing when prices are naturally dropping anyways. I’m sure wizards wouldn’t let that happen though

[@BRIKHOS]

@@jmcomparan did you think that through? Why would prices be dropping?

[@jmcomparan]

@@BRIKHOS because supply is increasing? Just simple economics

[@L1fewater]

Id argue the problem is that legendary creatures and power creep have been getting out of control and tools to ramp/fast mana are taking the hit instead of

[@whatsupdoc6358]

THIS SO MUCH

[@TheDreno33]

power creep will always happen, in like, every game with any expansions. however, mid-game powerhouses are too powerful without fast mana. Most cards are fine and not game ending if played 1 turn early with some ramp.

[@L1fewater]

@@TheDreno33 I know power creep is always a thing, but banning the fast mana imo is banning a symptom, not the illness.

[@FrostyTheSwoleman]

No, no it isn't because the fact of the matter is having insane and overly genuine enablers is ALWAYS the problem in every game. Enablers make stronger cards even stronger and in some cases even make traditionally weaker cards viable. Having enablers that are too powerful also limits card design.

[@FrostyTheSwoleman]

​@@L1fewater nah it is the illness. There is a reason that you win games by a significant percentage more when you have these. Enablers are ALWAYS the most degenerate parts of plays. Like some payoffs are insane but 9/10 hitting an enabler auto fixes the problem. Not only that when these cards are hyper generic and oversaturating the format it only further shows what the real issue is imo.

[@joelhatterini6392]

Commander 100% needs a ban list, and honestly it probably needs to be updated way more often. All formats require a ban list to help enforce the intended texture of the format, and Commander, from its inception, was meant to be a home for those cards without one. It was a place to experiment with weird ideas and cards that couldn't cut it in their respective Standard format. With WotC continuing to print directly into the format, with ever-more-powerful auto-include staples, that texture is getting erased more by the day. It is a ridiculous situation to be in where you can go to Moxfield and do an auto-package decklist that fills 80/100 of your cards because people have already determined the optimal pieces to play, that is crazy to me and completely antithetical to the Commander ethos. In conclusion: ban Sol Ring, cowards.

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

Don't agree with the Sol Ring ban but everything else, sure. Sol Ring is the reason I play the format. Sol Ring was as you described, a card that didn't have a home (other than vintage).

[@danielbautzmann6607]

In conclusion you're stupid

[@Entropic_Alloy]

The price of the card literally does not matter until you sell it. After purchasing, the cost is sunk. What happens afterward can feel bad, but if you never had intentions to sell, then what does it matter?

[@Welverin]

Nothing ir reality, in their heads? Everything.

[@Entropic_Alloy]

​@Welverin I own reserve list cards. If they abolished the RL and tanked the prices, I would not care because I had no intention of selling them anyway. In fact, I'd appreciate the fact that more people could play with these cards in a sanctioned setting. If I got pissed at the fact that I "lost money," then the only one I legitimately should be upset with is myself, since I held on to the cards for too long.

[@VexylObby]

@@Entropic_Alloy Exactly, people who are buying beyond their needs should not expect compensation.

[@YouFellForTheBait]

If I had full blown intentions of selling it but a ban happened out of nowhere, then it's a huge issue. I've seen several people lose money they needed and took a gamble on over the years due to the secondary market. I pulled 5 Hearts of Kiran from fat packs a month before they got banned. I had every intention of selling them. Not everyone who cracks packs for fun wants to keep their cards, especially when they are actually worth something.

[@abeybaebe2514]

I saw someone say that they're using dockside as the goblin shaman token for fable. That rules

[@zenalias3131]

I might be wrong but the whole fiasco boiled down to the lack of communication. I went over their monthly posts on their website (tbh it lacked visibility) and a quick scan across their twitter/X posts. The last time Dockside or other fast mana was mentioned was back in Jan 2023 post in their website. All quarterly updates were either "no changes" or quick fix/address on short term issues on hand, no reminders or what-not on the cards that are on their radar, not even on their social media channels This ban effectively came out of nowhere and blindsided all of us. Any communications between us and the RC prior to this banning would have soften or even negate the sourness the players are feeling right now.

[@brianray3956]

I feel like I rarely agree with Tomer's takes but I agree that it's silly to ban Mana Crypt and then specifically say we're not banning sol ring even though it does the same thing as Mana Crypt because (essentially) we don't want to. I feel like in general the commander ban list lacks a consistent philosophy (though it also does feel like an impossible task, unless the banlist is going to be extremely long or extrememly short)

[@SpoonsDebonair]

It's worth considering that costing 1 mana instead of zero mana makes sol ring infinity worse. Like literally. If you had 2 cards that did the same thing and one cost 1 and the other cost 2 that's a 100% increase in cost so one is 100% worse. Going from 0 to 1 is an infinite% increase. Obviously that's only on mana cost and it's not actually an infinite increase to power but considering we're talking about fast mana we understand how important going positive on mana is. And going up 2 is twice as much mana generated. So in reality crypt is somewhere between twice as good and infinitely better which is a significant difference.

[@thomasdawicki141]

@@SpoonsDebonairtldr, if I play a mana crypt and a land, I have 2 colorless and a color. Probably able to get out my commander or something busted. With sol ring I just end up with 2 colorless which is completely different in turn 1. I do not see why people are saying that sol ring is the same as mana crypt. I really feel like people making this argument just like beating their opponent using their wallet

[@brianray3956]

@@thomasdawicki141 but to the rules committee point the life you lose over several turns can also be a real cost. And I think I wasn't clear in my initial post I'm not upset mana crypt is banned, it's more that I just think it's silly for sol ring to not also be banned

[@thomasdawicki141]

@@brianray3956 I think we may have to agree to disagree. Hard to see you post and type this, but the color pip mana crypt leaves you with is incredibly valuable since you can use it to either have a really explosive turn 1 play or use it to counter anything targeting your crypt. Also, I think there is something to be said for the fact that crypt is not accessible to most players. I only had one since I had a lucky pull. I think it is bad for the format in a way that sol ring is not. Sol ring is cheap to buy, and is easily naturalized and interacted with in a way that pulls a turn 1 explosive play back in

[@glitchs7604]

Its mostly a casual format, cedh players mostly opt in to cedh games where they all agree to win as fast as possible, the banned list should be as short as possible and let people sort out power level by talking to eachother like actual humans

[@tReNhEx100]

What most people don't get and understand is that this game was never meant to have a whole economy built on secondary market. The point was to trade cards to get what you wanted. The secondary market evolved, reserved list created, and then whabamm !! Everyone treated it like a stock market venture. We should've always known pieces could get banned. It's a GAME first and foremost, not a gambling money engine. The overall health of the game as a whole supercedes any financial value you think you may or may not have. That's as it's called... "secondary" ...

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

Thank you for saying this. All I've heard is that people are losing value in their collections, even though their collections aren't entitled to hold any value. Just buy what you need, there's risk in buying anything and that's the way it should be.

[@leadpaintchips9461]

It's been over a decade since anyone has treated Magic as a game first instead of a speculative market first. After the reserved list was created, it was meant and designed for that secondary market.

[@darthsnarf]

Wotc fault for treating their game peices like collectables even in their first printing, high price cards should only be for old cards or special printings, can't really blame the player base

[@noahfriedrich4686]

I would disagree because commander isn't unhealthy because of these cards. Compare commander now to combo winter in the late 90s, when deck variation decreased so much that players just left Magic entirely. That isn't the case in commander: the format isn't competitive enough to have a "best deck." If there are cards causing the format to be unhealthy, its ultra staples like swords to plowshares, feed the swarm, etc, that you see every game, and are decreasing the variation

[@devinkerr5474]

If the game was created with SOLELY this intent in mind, I would wholeheartedly agree, but WOTC staff have said on record that they take secondary market into effect when making cards, so they are creating game pieces with the purposes of changing a financial market. I agree that a game should NEVER be about the resale value of its pieces.

[@jamesrobinson4506]

I've been waiting for the Goldfish video all day!

[@malmasterson3890]

Good bans, but sucks for the collectors/store owners. The real problem with these bans is that they've come way later than they should and I wouldn't be surprised if that's because of WOTC & Hasbro.

[@Spirited_skiing]

Can’t stores just write the loss off on taxes?

[@darthsnarf]

Yeah for real I just sold my dockside to my local store lol, sucks to be Lance I guess. At least it wasn't a jewelled lotus which is literally unplayable now

[@drokhalis3338]

I dont see how they move masters sets moving forward when you have the risk of cards being so bad they’re 0 or cards being so good they’re 0.

[@tianruixiao9239]

Even with a playgroup you still have house banlists, like on commander clash, maybe you're forgetting it since they banned the cards that were on the cc banlist... the point is it helps games against strangers and so these power level bans arent the worst.

[@jkdeadite]

There is one major problem with trying to ban Sol Ring that I don't see people talking about: WotC will always have numerous products in the works that include it. A Sol Ring ban would be a major disruption for WotC, and I would not be surprised if that's a line the RC refuses to cross for a variety of reasons.

[@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914]

there is : competitive commander is called Duel Commander. In march i played my first tournament , duel commander. Everyone knew Sol Ring is banned. It has been for a whil

[@Son0fAggression]

​@@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914that's a house rule though and what he is saying is that sol ring is included in every single precon and banning it would immediately invalidate every single commander product made and distributed. Very bad look, especially for newcomers.

[@j.hartman120]

It shouldn't matter what Precons have in them when talking about a ban list. It’d be such a high profile banning that everyone who plays would know and tell people that use precons to take it out. Alternatively, just let people play unmodified precons with the sol rings.

[@samsprague3158]

@@j.hartman120 im just gonna upvote this take whenever I see it. Ban the card, except in precons.

[@Son0fAggression]

@@j.hartman120 i disagree. Its not that easy. For most cards, sure. But sol ring is in every single one of them. Making every single one of them not playable immediately, which is the entire idea.

[@CRIMS0N_KING]

Sol Ring fits the Brainstorm in Legacy problem. It's so synonymous with the format despite being too powerful for it. I'm happy with the bans as a whole and I think it might cause cEDH to branch off as it's own format

[@Peiffer.jacob13]

I think CEDH will branch to a new ban list because of this.

[@johngeralt]

Nadu was banned because of the durdling nature. It's powerful and leads to a play pattern where one player has prolonged nondeterministic turns

[@brandandixon3943]

​@@johngeraltnadu isn't the reason cedh will splinter. It's the fast mana removal.

[@avlv4035]

@@johngeralt nadu ain't even that good in 100 card singleton it's just boring

[@natejablonski]

I don't think so. The difference between cEDH and "normal" Commander, in both deckbuilding and gameplay, always has been mindset. I still don't think this changes that.

[@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914]

CEDH players won'T care about banning Sol Ring ! Sol Ring is ALREADY banned in Duel Commander ;) I played my first tournament in march , Sol Ring was banned.

[@KingSkinny-ww2pl]

I've said it so many times already so I won't rant again, but. In cEDH RogSi and other fast decks will slot in rituals and continue to win by turn 2, slower decks needed mana from permenant sources and will struggle even more to keep up with the pace of the new meta. In casual storm and combo will replace these cards easily, while timmy and his big dragon deck now has fewer options to compete. Yes, not every deck had these cards, but if they all did, or if no one did, the result of a match doesn't change, so the difference is have vs have not, the 2 main ones are colourless so everyone could theoretically run them and the power imbalance comes only from their cost, making the bans financially motivated, not for power reasons. Some people like fast games, some do not, that as always a Rule 0 discussion, and it still is, I can Rule 0 these cards in, but the fact is the decision was made for me, the cards exist, banning them is a choice that people can't agree on even 4 days later and a choice I didn't get to make. I like the slow Magic of 10 years ago, but power creep has happened in every aspect and now if I want my jank to perform I need options to make it work, I now have fewer options and am forced into a position where I play decks that are less viable than ever, but decks i want to create, or play something else, in a higher tier, limiting my creative freedom in EDH, the format built on creative freedom. The Sol Ring argument, to me, says Timmy can keep up occasionally, but they shouldnt have the same consistency as decks that are already using enough fast mana to not be largely impacted. I said I wouldn't rant again, I lied, my bad 😅

[@rulamagic]

I think the assumption that Sol Ring leads to non-games and explosive starts needs evidence. At least according to my own data, only 28% of games with Sol Ring turn 1 or 2 end up being won by the player with the Sol Ring, which is only 3% above the average win rate. That doesn't strike me as a significant enough advantage.

[@bios_4885]

We finally get a good banlist and people are still complaining about it. You can never make everyone happy when you ban cards in any format

[@sorry987654321]

Also: dockside in cEDH is one thing. In EDH it does NOT usually generate 3 mana on turn 2. Then again in EDH as a combo piece he is way too efficient. But then again you can simply play turn 5 mana geyser and kill everyone without any loops...

[@mattpk1609]

Thanks for the video! Hope we get a podcast episode on it aswell

[@kkyle53]

I do not envy the RC, if they don't ban stuff they get shit on, if they ban stuff they get shit on, they just can't win.

[@erik556]

cedh rc now

[@kkyle53]

@@erik556 All it will do is give CEDH people another RC to be angry at, moving the issue won't fix the issue.

[@erik556]

@@kkyle53 lol no. its the mad timmies that caused this.

[@BDtetra]

the thing is, they should have banned these years ago. Them holding their ground on the "self-reporting levels will sort itself out" mentality is what caused this problem, also WotC going ham on printing 100s of legendary cards and cards "made for commander" instead of focusing on standard/pioneer/modern like they should be.

[@rizeus8331]

to be fair there is alot they could have done to mitigate the issue. For example give a warning about the ban and what sort of cards that will be banned. I.e In the next ban list we will tackle the issue of explosive wins. or instead have a warning list, so instead of a outright ban, have a list of cards that should be only played at high level. (i.e a suggestion) cause the issue is there are so many other type of cards worth banning that havent been touch

[@zachwest2387]

Ban lists are even healthy for casual games with friends. I was a new commander player starting in a group that i am still a part of. I put in a Karakas with the intention of basically bouncing my own commander at sorcery speed (I had much to learn, I know). A player in that group just kindly said that the card was banned. It was over and done and I didn't feel picked on as the new player.

[@derecktaylor6310]

Wasn’t a study done a couple years ago that showed that a turn 1 sol ring more often than not lead to more games loss than not? Simply by player perception, a turn one sol ring leads to the table sending the early aggression and removal at the sol ring player. I think it’s okay that it isn’t banned cause as they said. They want to reduce fast mana starts, not out right eliminate them.

[@RyanEglitis]

EDHRec cast had competing data that showed the opposite. It's unclear which is right, but my money is on a good card increasing your win percentage.

[@bartoffer]

In BLB draft, UB was one of the worst archetypes... for low-skill players. It was one of the better archetypes for high-skill players. The same applies for Sol Ring. Low-skill players will use it as a lightning rod with no other real upside, whereas high-skill players will deploy it to ensure they have explosive turns and generate immediate advantage. These weaknesses are shared with Crypt, Lotus, Extortionist et-al.

[@senken12]

Some of these bans just say to me, that they don't want to mess with the truly casual players (let them keep the sol rings that everyone has), while trying to move towards a format split of EDH and cEDH.

[@voltagetoe]

why's the split taking so long ? people have waited 15 years now. there's no reason to stick together as the philosophy is the opposite. staying together just causes harm to both parties- no benefit.

[@ddublu]

I'm with tomer. Not banning sol ring is incoherent and much more impactful than the other bans.

[@VexylObby]

At least ONE of the 2 auto-include artifacts are gone, reducing those swingy games down by a lot.

[@VexylObby]

And remember, the bans are meant to be emblematic of gameplay patterns that should be avoided to allow for balanced and net fun.

[@j.hartman120]

@VexylObby They don’t ban Monolith, the other Moxs, Tabernacle, Stasis, Timetwister, etc. Why hypocritically ban Mana Crypt and not Sol Ring over any of those cards?

[@VexylObby]

@@j.hartman120 I’m not them, but I would guess because Crypt is the worst of them. And they tend to ban signpost cards, cards emblematic of play styles suggested to avoid for casual play.

[@CasualKing21]

As someone wanting to get into Canadian Highlander hopefully the prices drop a good amount, I'd like to pick some stuff up

[@dragonlord23411]

My group decided not to play Nadu, but didn't make it an actual rule so of course 'that guy' in the group makes a Nadu deck.

[@jacobisaacs4160]

Amazing for the format! Excited for more!

[@firstandlast.1254]

Cowards. Just ban Sol Ring. Life will go on.

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

Nah, I'm out if they ban Sol Ring. The format would basically be standard with 100 cards.

[@nikmidclayton5933]

​@Arctanis-vt3hl see ya! It's coming homie

[@VexylObby]

@@Northernheros Except this is the wild west of card games, and without moderation, the community (that cannot help themselves tbh) will take advantage of that. ie: any LGS games with randos will show you that some cards allowed in the format just creates a bunch of non-games and a waste of a person's Friday Night.

[@OlAgony]

Would be interesting to see a poll for whether people would like Sol Ring banned.

[@VexylObby]

Tomer thinks 90% would keep Sol Ring around. I think it is MUCH less than that.

[@commanderpower99]

According to EDHRec: Mana crypt in 11% of decks - BANNED Dockside in 16% of decks - BANNED Jeweled Lotus in 7% of decks - BANNED Sol Ring in 85% of decks - no problem! If you want the casual tables not to have explosive starts, then you should ban the card that is 9/10 of decks. Explosive starts suck but you know what sucks more? Having your cards getting banned. If the spirit of commander is to play whatever you want, then there should not be a ban list in the first place.

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

Makes sense - the least affordable and inaccessible ones should be banned first because you can't compete with them if you're just playing budget deck with Sol ring.

[@arvinsim]

WoTC will never let them ban Sol Ring. It's in every precon(except Painbow).

[@deifiedtitan]

Eh? They didn't say they don't want explosive starts, they said that explosive starts being infrequent is the goal for variance and that multiple iterations of similar cards made explosive starts too consistent. We can all read between the lines that Sol Ring won't get banned because precon pass, emblem of the format, etc. but it's not like these bans are somehow bad because they didn't ban an additional thing.

[@Kajiyaification]

surely the people who made a deck on edhrec are like: OHMYGOD A CARD GOT BANNED I HAVE TO NOW EDIT MY EDHREC DECK SO THE STATISTICS LOOK CORRECT SO SOME RANDOM GUY ON KZbin CAN USE THE STATISTICS CORRECTLY

[@Hemlocker]

The good news is that you and your playgroup literally don't have to listen to a single word the RC says. You can, as a group, decide to just ignore them.

[@alphonse2234]

Don’t ban the dollar card. Ban the 200 dollar one.

[@walrider8073]

The dollar card is weaker than crypt and lotus, because it is not free to cast. The dollar card does not allow people to play their 6 mana commander turn 2. The dollar card does not allow people to play 2 other rocks turn 1.

[@j.hartman120]

The vast majority of the time, Sol Ring is better than Mana Crypt. And Crypt’s 1.5 damage per turn is not negligible, to people that have actually played with it. Sol Ring is also Pack 1; Pick 1 in any draft where it’s available, over Black Lotus and easily Crypt.

[@walrider8073]

​@@j.hartman120 The random damage of crypt does not matter a lot in a 40 health format.

[@Bladezeromus]

Ban all the fast mana or none of it.

[@thatepicwizardguy]

they should be banned, but also... a lot of other things should be banned too. HOWEVER - should they have been banned in cedh??? ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. cedh + regular commander need to be separated completely and the rules committee should probably not be the people who are there currently if we're being real about things. maybe this is a sign they're gonna start actually doing their jobs though so we'll see, but I'm gonna go ahead and doubt that for now.

[@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914]

i started MTG in january 2024 and i know it's already a done deal : competitive commander is called Duel Commander. In march i played my first tournament , duel commander. Everyone knew Sol Ring is banned. It has been for a while

[@Rook986]

It doesn't suck when the prices tank, it teaches people not to be a dumbass and spend outrages prices for a piece of cardboard when printers exist.

[@poipoi9816]

I personally think this is lame as fuck, not because the bans are bad (they're good), but because the RC's quarterly updates didn't mention the non-Nadu cards as things they were looking at. The last mention of Dockside was in like, january 2023 and it was when they went "we've decided it's fine and we're unlikely to do anything about it."

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

You do realize that if they said something like, "we are taking a look at dockside", then everyone will sell their cards (if possible) and it creates the same problem? There is no way to announce a future ban without people reacting to it.

[@lordtachanka2740]

​@@Arctanis-vt3hlyeah can't have the price drop before the rc sells there copies.

[@fwriggs8731]

Best take on the subject. Thanks. Torally agree that banning sol ring instead would have been better move. Also agree that rule zero should be enough to solve the problem in the first place.

[@alexnunes3022]

Having a full split on edh and cEDH would be a big step. If the entire cEDH community picked up and left the RC ban list behind I think it would push for more separation between the two formats. While Dockside, Mana Crypt and Jeweled lotus mean a lot, that’s not enough to start a new format. Most of the other cards on the RC ban list becoming legal in cEDH wouldn’t make much of an impact. So that just means more bans is the way to go. Otherwise top tier EDH would just be an awkward cousin to cEDH and pubstomping would be more prevalent because people would hedge around the ban list instead of going to play “cEDH” like they probably should. If the argument is the RC wants people to police themselves, then why did this happen? The RC has said that they aim to provide guidance for players to police their own games and ban cards as a rubric for what types of cards they believe create an unfavorable casual experience. If that’s true in a post separation of c-edh then I believe they have more work to do. Coming into magic as a newbie knowing that cEDH is supposed to be a different format then just getting stomped by thoracle or breach would just feel bad and people would undoubtedly use the separation to defend pubstomping.

[@maxxlanglois]

I couldn't wait for so many reactions from some of my favorite content creators. I honestly don't know how to feel. I think it shows money being tied to power is a really bad thing and we should shift to artwork being tied to price.

[@zandaman802]

I care more about a diverse and unique format where cards can be played that are interesting for the deck they are being run for. Not staples that can be run in 99% of decks. I'm glad for these changes and happy to see more unique and interesting decks

[@justins6134]

@@zandaman802 rip to my wacky, but not at all competitive mono red deck that often relied on dockside. Getting rid of dockside basically forces me to build it into a more "meta" deck, or just scrap it entirely.

[@chuckgreen6386]

Anyone want to bet that before the announcement was officially made the members of the RC sold all their copies of the banned cards?

[@Welverin]

No.

[@mtgbrewery7239]

100%

[@peewee0224]

im 99% sure thats illegal and they would get uber fucked for it

[@chuckgreen6386]

@@peewee0224 I don’t know if it is illegal. Unethical yes, but I don’t know about illegal

[@peewee0224]

@@chuckgreen6386 I think it is illegal it would be protected under the same protection the stock market has.

[@Thleepricon]

Sol Ring is not banned since its available for everyone and its the only fast mana that is that, the rest are incredibly expensive, if all of them were printed as much as Sol Ring they would all be in all of our decks

[@lobbynotlob]

the pubstompers at my store are absolutely enraged rn

[@metalliholic]

Feels good that I held out on owning any of these

[@dudemanbrodog1961]

None of this stops pubstompers. They can still play the legal moxen, Mana vault, grim monolith, etc

[@toedrag-release]

Sucks for us who played some of these cards fairly, my mana crypt was in my deck that has an 8 cmc commander with an average cmc of 5.3. My dockside was in my mono red deck that sure maybe late game got alot of mana however by that time the board state was already out of control and red lacks draw. I didn't abuse it with blink, bounce or recursion which is why everybody was complaining about it. I actually had a discussion with another player in my pod, he complimented my decks on how fair they feel despite having some pricey cards, I dont do combos I just turn things sideways and win via combat damage. While I understand the bans it still sucks I'm not sure what I'll replace my crypt with dockside wasnt really super important I just had one from the pre con and said "hey this mono red deck needs some ramp" still hard to find a decent replacement tho

[@TheWowdrew]

@@toedrag-releasethere won't be any replacements that will be as good but there are still a lot of good options

[@blaineallen5297]

​@@toedrag-releaseyes its sad but most player play for power and for win not much for fun

[@davidhenriques6372]

The problem here of consistency. The more fast mana pieces we have the more explosives the starts will be and more frequent as well, which is very bad for a casual format. Banning these fast mana pieces make sense in mitigating this (without taking it away completely) and the announcement does a good job of outlining this. Where the ball was dropped however IMO was in building an argument for Sol Ring based on identity first and then gameplay experience second. That didn't do the announcement any favors, so now we see this deluge of bad faith arguments.

[@arakasius00]

Primetime died for that reasoning (snowballing)

[@RyanEglitis]

Came here to say this

[@brianpendleton2674]

Should be unbanned. The card is okay at best in today's meta.

[@bwild40]

I view commander as two formats. Cedh most broken stuff and casual/regular. I'm in the camp as few things banned as possible and just rule zero communicate what you want soft banned. But i like the idea of a beginner friendly format with all the soft banned salty cards actually banned. I'm not sure now what I want haha. Definitely two ban lists if I had a choice.

[@xZyrux]

I find it hillarious how many people are raging about the financial implications of this banning. The RC SHOULD only care about gameplay, it's not some financial instituation lmao.

[@Dext3rM0rg4n]

Yeah the people treating mtg as a mini fake Wall Street are making the game so much worse for everyone. I wonder how many of those people are also cryptobro.

[@darthsnarf]

Wotc is making the game worse, they could just print more cards, but it is by design when the new chase mythic hits 100$,that is their goal

[@j.hartman120]

Right, so they should also have banned Sol Ring. It’d show they aren’t hypocrites.

[@pattycake520]

​@@j.hartman120The RC honestly had a good explanation for only banning Crypt and Lotus. Even mentioning Sol Ring was really just putting a foot in their mouth. They wanted to reduce consistency of the explosive fast mana plays in early turns, not eliminate it completely, so their decision to ban only the most egregious offenders. The fact they mentioned Sol Ring should be banned at all was a mistake. I also don't agree with it.

[@discoviolenza1984]

​@pattycake520 I don't think they had a good explanation, either ban all fast mana or none of it. Leaving Sol Ring, Ancient Tomb, Mana Vault and Grim Monolith is foolish and totally inconsistent. It also raises ethical concerns with the RC because they don't have to answer to anyone how do we know they didn't dump all of there stock in These cards beforehand.

[@maxmazzel]

Absolutely loooove these bans. No more running into pubstompers. It's happened to me too often. cEDH should have a separate banlist. Were these can be played still.

[@diegorezi5760]

You guys that do not play spelltable and dont use "power levels" are strange...in spelltable we do not have this problem

[@maxmazzel]

@@diegorezi5760 "us people" don't use "power level" but do discuss around what turn you usually try to win. Doesn't stop people from not disclosing these cards.

[@maxmazzel]

@@diegorezi5760 but we do... they just seaky talk around it and avoid questions. "Power levels" just doesn't work, it's too subjective. I try to ask around what turn a deck usually tries to win. And if there's catds they want to warn about. For instance I have a lifegain deck that has the Exquisite combo and always let it be known

[@andystocking5316]

The part of the statement they didn't write is:"Sol Ring costs $2.25 and is in almost every precon. These other cards were $80+ and that was unhealthy for the format."

[@j.hartman120]

Timetwister isn't banned, Tabernacle isn’t banned, etc. Price isn’t part of their philosophy, it seems.

[@NinjaPicnicers]

Most insane false equivalency​@@j.hartman120

[@harbingerofchaos6720]

While collector boxes, secret lairs and their stupid price hikes on even basic product aren't healthy for EVERY format(?)

[@Staggger]

The Jump Scare precon pairs well with Nadu, so I guess it was bound to happen.

[@WarriorFromV4LH4LL4]

In regards to the argument that regular playgroups doesn't need bans, because they can match expectations. This might be true for some or most. But speaking from personal experience sometimes your group just can't get to a consensus on a card. That's where the ban list sometimes makes sense. Personally this is great news for me as our group couldn't reach a consensus on some of these cards.

[@ryanwest9336]

They left an awful lot of other extremely powerful fast mana alone. This feels weirdly halfway to being anything.

[@joelanderson5285]

A format with less fast mana is a slower format.

[@canamrock]

A problem of intent: the Commander ban list has always been meant to be more of a vibe check than a literal perfect ban list as it's used in other formats, and so a bunch of similar pieces e.g. Mana Vault are probably sussy and would be out of scope in lower power pools, but they aren't willing to try and formalize any such splintering and leave that to community consideration.

[@exilenl]

@@canamrock this is exactly the problem. If you want a casual format, a vibe-check is ok, but essentially obsolete due to rule 0. If you want a competitive format, ban cards according to logical rules for what you want to the format to be. Bans for a casual format make no sense really, since you play for fun. If someone wants to proxy a dual land, sure. If someone want to play a 'banned' card, fine. Just be prepared to be the arch-enemy if it ends up catapulting you ahead.

[@superfrans100]

@@exilenl yeah the problem is also that not everyone thinks like that. plus these bans aren't really for those situations. if you want to rule 0 shit at home then go right on ahead. but the ban list is absolutely a good thing to have when playing at WOTC certified stores that host events. since they can't always allow proxying or straying from the banlist in fear of player outrage. i've played with a LOT of people who just will not take out their jeweled lotus even when the whole table asks to not play it. same was the problem with winter orb. it just creates situations that you dont wanna get into at these events. at home play whatever you want lmao, its cardboard.

[@EvanFarshadow]

Name some other 0 mana cards that provide 2+ mana immediately on play (lotus bloom exists, but suspend keeps it fair). The difference between 0 and 1 is HUGE.

[@Larkinzzz]

Discussing the power level scale for a 100 card singleton deck in a way that everyone agrees on is hard. It's easier to ask “can I play this in my deck” than to convince someone to “please don’t play that card.” These bans set up a much healthier rule 0 conversation when playing with strangers.

[@gudtimes6363]

I know many casual players who dont know anything about power level or similar, they just play the decks they like with the cards they like. They do know the ban list.

[@FearOgre]

lolol

[@nodekapunk]

Yep, removing crypt and jeweled from my cedh decks and going to my lgs to start stomping casuals. Since rule zero means nothing now.

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

In my group, we just say is it casual (don't care about winning ), high powered (trying to win / anything goes) , Cedh. Don't make it about the cards, make it about whether you're trying to win.

[@VexylObby]

@@gudtimes6363 Okay, but they are playing a game of four people, not solitaire. It is important for people to know that this is the wild west, and that there needs to be some sort of moderation.

[@ullrich]

"You just can't factor price in if you're worried about the health of the format." (or something like that). I agree, but it's not like these cards got super powerful last week. They've been this powerful, and that's why they became so expensive and why they were used as chase reprints. So whether you use the price of a card to consider a ban necessary or to stay a ban, it sucks either way. The fact that these have been allowed to get to this price and be used as chase cards in a good handful of sets (including several recent sets) kind of feels to me like WotC has a pretty heavy thumb on the scale of the Commander Rules Comity. Now, some might say "well WotC loses too because they can't use these cards as reprint equity to push new sets," and that is true. But how hard is it for them to print a card that is juuuuust a tad worse than either of these? Like "Lotus Petals" for 2 mana or something lol. In the vacuum of these bans, those now become the NEW staples that climb up to 80+ bucks. Or I don't know, maybe spread that kind of power over a few cards rather than 1, so you have 4 cards that are worth 25 rather than 1 worth 80. I admit that's could be a bit of a tinfoil hat idea. But Sol Ring is pretty damn powerful, and it's also like $1 and stock in every precon, but they left that in. It's "format defining" so it's okay. So I don't know. Kind of seems like price was considered somewhere, but who knows. All that said, it is probably better that they are banned, and I had 2x Mana crypt (borderless foil from Caverns) and 1xJeweled Lotus (borderless foil CMD masters) lol. Most people in my play group don't really have that kind of stuff in their decks anyway, so I rarely used em. Not fun to just crush precon decks you're playing with.

[@MrOrthoclase]

Just ban Sol Ring already. No one thinks of that card as some kind of posterchild for the format. It just makes it so I only pick 98 cards for a deck 99.999% of the time.

[@Nomm-salt]

A card that is put in every deck is pretty much a poster child

[@TheWowdrew]

@@Nomm-salthe is probably one of the ones that lost tons of money because of this

[@TheForeverRanger]

Banning Sol Ring would make every precon illegal out of the box. Imagine telling a new player who is interested in playing Commander that the precon they like only has 98 legal main deck cards.

[@TheForeverRanger]

@@TheWowdrew I genuinely don't feel bad for anyone that lost their shirt investing in cardboard.

[@patarfuifui]

People absolutely do think Sol Ring is a poster card of Commander, myself included

[@Eclipse8502]

Given the chase card status of lotus and crypt, I honestly think WotC’s defense against the ban will be to simply errata them to each cost 1 mana in future printings, to try to get RC to unban them. Since they don’t control the RC, but they do control oracle text

[@VRanger100]

The bannings hurt my collection since I had 4 Mana Crypts, 1 Masterpiece Mana Crypt, 3 Jeweled Lotus, and 2 Docksides. Overall, this stings since I collected them during their release, but overall I do accept this will make games more enjoyable from a non cEDH POV. Now I hug my Ancient Tombs and Mana Vaults more closely since those will start to see a spike left from the bannings.

[@gokuvssummonerswar8984]

Until they are banned too. Proxy people.

[@erik556]

@@VRanger100 those will get banned next because cedh will be too fast for casual times that don’t play it

[@DrunkenPilotVideos]

Are you planning on selling you collection?? You still own those cards, no one is taking them away from you. You can still play with them with friends if they all agree to it. This only affects tournament settings and resale prices to be fair

[@leonardomanteiga3910]

​@@DrunkenPilotVideoshi, if i only want my cards to play wirh my friends, i can proxi the cards.... And yes, im thinking on selling my collection sadly

[@damonlouis6536]

karma

[@empxrubix9387]

I'm surprized that you didn't mention urza in the examples. Ofc he doesn't have protection, but a T1 win is absolutely possible with a jeweled lotus.

[@Pupalah]

sol ring "iconic" but lotus, a card that only works in commander, isn't iconic. i guess one ring will never get banned.

[@Cybertech134]

Lotus hasn't even been around long enough to be called "iconic".

[@evanjohnson6884]

If commander should have a ban list at all, these cards are top of mind for what should be on them imo. I think everyone who is temporarily upset due to their financial loss will look back on this in 5 years time and realize they didn't miss playing with or against these cards, which is ultimately what matters most. the RC is in a tough spot with sol ring, personally I could care less about how "iconic" sol ring is, but instantly invalidating every wizards precon and every upcoming UNRELEASED but fully fleshed out precon in the works is a huge hurdle. I wish sol ring could get banned but unfortunately it'll have to remain a house ban for me and my friend group and I'll just continue to tank the occasional sol ring when I play at my LGS.

[@dotdotdot2k6]

Inconsistently applying a standard to bans for some cards and not to others is not good for the long term health of the game in my opinion. It has also made me lose faith in the current CRC. I can also imagine there being quite a bit of pain inflicted on some LGS's out there right now. I know many barely make it by and losing thousands of dollars in card value could be devastating.

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

So what? This is a game first. It should've never gotten to this point where Mana Crypt was 200. They should've reprinted it until it tanked.

[@dotdotdot2k6]

@@Arctanis-vt3hl what exactly is your argument? There are hundreds of cards worth over 200 bucks still legal in the format. The cost of the cards banned is irrelevant as long as that remains true.

[@RazielNunes]

Finally someone I can agree with who actually put up a solid argumentation on why this ban is a healthy one

[@jeddcrilly4024]

Preface: I agree with the bans. But the non banning of sol ring shows completely the banning of mana crypt was entirely price and rarity based

[@danielbautzmann6607]

Nah you're just stupid

[@Cybertech134]

One paint bubble is bad; two paint bubbles are worse.

[@Wrightkov]

Sol ring is worse the crypt tho, it at least costs a mana to play. 1 dmg is so inconsequential when you have 40 hp

[@joshjetson7143]

I generally dont agree with Tomer's opinions and position on aspects of commander from the clash videos I have watched. But I have to say that this was very thoughtfully explained and justified. Regardless of liking or not liking these bans I think the reasoning is solid. Dockside has been a known ban list potential for ages and the only surprise is that the rules committee actually found a time to pull the trigger. Jewelled lotus was panned as a design mistake since it was spoiled so no surprises there either. These fast starts (like Tomer explained) were not as game ending when cards being accelerated out didnt have the impact that cards do now. These bans future proof the design space so that busted 4 and 5 drop commanders or value engines dont guarantee a win out of the busted start. I built a Nadu deck to test and it is as broken as I have ever had a deck be for so little effort. I have the other 3 in decks that now need replacements and are costing me money while they tank. I still think this is positive for the format and in a years time they wont be missed.

[@pfirpfel]

I think a lot more than 10% of the commander players would want a Sol Ring ban.

[@brianpendleton2674]

Makes no sense.

[@ONEIL311]

@@pfirpfel I been to ten cards shops to play over multiple states. It’s either a west coast thing or an online thing in my opinion cause I never heard anyone bring up sol ring to ban. Hell I haven’t heard Crypt or jeweled or any fast mana.

[@KingSkinny-ww2pl]

Charity event? Great, who is donating? Probably people who buy cards like Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus and Dockside... Oops

[@oafkad]

Rule 0 is an awful idea. And if it isn't then these bans don't matter. So either way a good change imo.

[@nodekapunk]

Yep. I’m planning on taking my cedh decks with jeweled lotus and crypt taken out and laying down a turn 2 thoracle win. Since rule zero doesn’t matter anymore the casuals can get bodied now.

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

@@nodekapunk Rule zero is stupid. I just ask what are we playing, casual or high powered. based on your response, I use the appropriate deck following banlist rules. That's the extent that rule zero should have on a game. Nothing is more irritating that someone saying, " you can't use this strategy or that strategy"

[@nodekapunk]

@@Arctanis-vt3hl I agree. But that’s all out the window imo now

[@VexylObby]

Nah, I prefer playing a tabletop experience where we all want to chat and have a chill time. And talking about matching up decks that have like-minded experiences seems like the right thing to do to make sure everyone gets to do fun stuff. But because of the vast nature of the game/format, there has to be a disclaimer. That's the reality.

[@Cybertech134]

@@Arctanis-vt3hl You are the very reason rule zero doesn't work.

[@jamesc.7216]

These bans don't go far enough. Yes people are mad about the money (I have multiple Mana Crypts and Docksides so I feel your pain). Can we please ban Thassa's Oracle? How is that a fun card? I got to 3 mana so I win, shuffle up is a desirable play pattern? And if so why is Coalition Victory banned then? Thoracle is the worst win condition in the entire game. My friends also suggest banning the cards that make you win for having an empty library.

[@isaacsantos6200]

What about ancient tomb? What about dark ritual? The Moxes??

[@DrakanShadow]

Ancient tomb at least counts as land drop, so is not as fast and the damage does balance it out enough giving you 4 net mana compared to Sol Ring and Mana Crypt giving potential 5 net mana by turn 2. Moxes put at card disadvantage that hurt casual players and are generally only good for competitive. Dark ritual and Mana Vault definitely can be explosive, but are both 2 net mana compared to Jeweled Lotus at 3 net mana.

[@isaacsantos6200]

@@DrakanShadow They're not *as* efficient as JLo but they're damn close. The issue they stated is that they cause explosive turns that lead to snowballs. Ancient Tomb can still allow for land drop, talisman, sol ring to give you 6 Mana on turn two. Dark Ritual also allows for an explosive turn one, and the Moxes allow for colored Mana instead of colorless, which can be more valuable depending on your build. It's the same line of argumentation, they've just arbitrarily decided where to draw the line

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

@@isaacsantos6200 No, Ancient tomb isn't on the same level as crypt. Ancient will kill you and costs a land drop. Crypt MIGHT kill you and is independent of a land drop. They aren't on the same level. Crypt is expensive and Sol Ring is available to everyone.

[@isaacsantos6200]

@@Arctanis-vt3hl Crypt into talisman into sol ring provides 5/6 Mana on turn two, its the exact power start issue they described. Also, very very very rarely does Ancient Tomb actually get the point of killing you. A vast majority of the time you get to your wincon before then. Lastly, the price of a card shouldn't determine if it's banned or not. If it's leading to gameplay that they explicitly state is against their vision then it should be banned

[@bartoffer]

Realistically, the RC should probably knock out ancient tomb, sol ring and mana vault. The rest of the cards allow explosive plays but carry card disadvantage or conditionality, whereas the others are a repeated, constant uptick on mana that sticks around (even if vault has to be untapped) without any card disadvantage. You could probably see Grim also kicked for this reason. But all this only makes sense if cEDH is split into a separate list, and if it's done consistently.

[@Magnafiend]

Totally agree with crypt being stronger than sol ring, though curious if your reason for thinking is similar to mine, namely color availability for turn 1 plays.... To compound on this, basically sol ring quick start completely hinge on having a 2 mana rock in your hand to capitalize on it, which most decks don't focus or build around, it's very hand dependent. The other cards banned are not hand dependent as they either do not require use of your colored mana for turn or produce a source of colored mana themselves (crypt can lead to any 3 drop needing a single pip turn 1 such ass rhystic study, jeweled lotus allows casting of any 1 or 2 color 4 cost commander turn 1, and dockside just produces sources of colored mana to accelerate with for very little cost, and is abusable due to it being a creature with an etb).

[@gildarmesh3809]

We need a more active RC. They want "quieter" updates? We need more numerous updates. They aren't even considering banning sol ring? We need to wipe out a lot of staples to diversify the format and support creativity; in thus they SHOULD consider sol ring and other staples. Why can't we revisit the whole list? Some cards that were problematic are fine AND the list is wildly inconsistent. Review the list and hit more cards please.

[@broodwarjc1517]

There being a few format staples isn't necessarily a bad thing. Brainstorm is busted in Legacy, but it is considered an icon of the format and has not and will not be banned. There is also less "fast mana" so it will lower the percentage of busted openings in 100 card decks. Leave Sol Ring as it is the icon of the format, but I can see some other cards being considered (Thoracle?).

[@romeomargot-picquendar1281]

For real, lots of cards on there for subjective reasons. Lots of egregious offenders that should be banned. Sol Ring, Oracle, Study, Remora, consult should all get banned as well.

[@damonlouis6536]

u need to breathe and calm down

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

Because people will disagree no matter what. You can revisit the list all you want, and their will always be a few who just don't like particular cards or strategies no matter how tame they are.

[@EstimatedAdam]

Disagree. Fuck the complainers. Play everything or gtfo. Stop being a bitch

[@devinmcallister6873]

Love this addition to the ban list. They are a real catch 22 if some (or most in my case) of your play group play them. I chose to never include them in my decks because they don’t lead to funner games. Everyone in my group acknowledges that but don’t want to be at a disadvantage to the players that do run them. Hearing my buddy say he has to edit seventeen decks after the banning was honestly music to my ears. No more do I have to get pub stomped regularly by crypt, JL & dockside in power 7/8 lobbies on spell table. No more will I have to sit through someone busting out their “SUPER SICK AND ORIGINAL” 2 card dockside infinite combo after vamp tutoring the turn before in a casual game pickup game. Honestly props to the RC committee. Their job is to make the format better for the majority of their players, and these bans certainly do that. All other arguments to me are irrelevant in importance to that fact.

[@Rococorico]

At this point we should have a True-Name Nemesis meme on how dangerous it is to design a competitive/chase card for Commander.

[@dennisvogel5982]

the funny thing though - true name was build for commander and was broken in other formats - lotus was build for commander by wizards and then banned from commander by the committee - basically rendering the card completly useless =) Its absurd

[@adammorin2955]

@@dennisvogel5982and lotus was banned in legacy cause of doubling cube

[@theookami1]

As someone who plays casual pick up games regularly, I agree that the rule 0 discussion does not work well a lot of the time. HOWEVER, the problem in those games were never jeweled lotus or mana crypt because these just aren't considered casual (I have never played with or against either in casual games). The real issue are cards that are very powerful but widely accepted, like smothering tithe, rhystic study or sol ring. That's why I think the dockside ban is good, but I really don't like the other bans for high power play / cEDH.

[@anythinginteresting3412]

Honestly, I don't really think of sol ring as the iconic card of the format. When I think of commander, I think about what the format is, 100 card singleton with a legendary creature as "commander". If they wanted to ban Sol Ring I wouldn't really care.

[@lesternomo6578]

yeah while I do feel it's super iconic I think the people who have a strong attachment to it would soon forget about it because it's so...whatever. autoinclude cards are boring and it adds no identity to your deck in the format about making unique decks around your commander

[@tyronium6950]

​@@lesternomo6578agreed. If a card is an auto-include in 95% or more of decks, it just makes the formal less interestong/fun imo. Just like one ring in modern, seeing it in like 90% of tier 1 decks just makes games more stale and uninspired

[@nikmidclayton5933]

I don't think it's iconic either. Sol Ring is the little red headed trouble making kid who's mother coddels and looks the other way.

[@Hemlocker]

@@tyronium6950 So do lands make the format less interesting?

[@tyronium6950]

@@Hemlocker I can't really think of an ultra-staple nonbasic that's on the same level as sol ring. Something like Ancient Tomb is obviously comparable, but isn't played nearly as often.

[@okgut2033]

i think rule 0 is necessary, esp today. just to give one huge point close to no one is speaking of: look at how many new cards per year are printed, and you find out that we are around trippled the amount. this and last year are allmost 4k new cards. that amount suppost to need around 6 years, not two! that means most can't keep up anymore, and we have even less time to establish how we feel about cards. oh, and dont forget that the number of words per card is also far bigger. also also: every set is relevant for commander. so ignoring it means to lose touch, maybe even trigger fomo (fear of missing out)

[@VeilXI]

Feels like a list made to protect a kitchen table battlecruiser meta that didn’t need protecting. High Power casual is a lot less fun and high power now. Red in cEDH is in shambles. Korvold, Magda, etc. is looking rough. Welcome to Dimir winter. cEDH RC is looking very appealing.

[@BDtetra]

I don't think you watched the video 23:56, the Ban list is FOR the kitchen table/random FNM/newer play groups because the fact that rule0 exists. If you want to play high power EDH, find a group that doesn't ban these cards. The most important group of EDH players are the players that go to random tables and just play and make everybody have fun. That is what the ban list is trying to protect, because there's always going to be that guy that walks up to a table saying their deck is Level 6 and play first turn Mana Crypt Signet Demonic Tutor turn 1.

[@Dstinct]

@@BDtetra Rule 0 does not work in a public environment. You cannot police how people like to have fun. A ban list is a version of rule 0, and if you want cards banned, you can just play kitchen table with your friends. Fast mana combo may be how people have fun.

[@BDtetra]

@@Dstinct again that's exactly why the reason bans are in place. Because its been shown people cant self-regulate and put in Mana Crypts and Demonic Tutor Thassa's in their "level 6 deck" and drive away players, where nobody but the player is having fun. If you like fast mana that's fine, you can find people similar to you and get a game that way and allow it. The issue is these Fast Mana people coming to the average table of FNM and expecting people to enjoy the exeperience (they do not). I intentionally remove these cards when playing against people that I've never met but not everybody can fcllow simple guidelines which is why this needed to happen in the first place.

[@VeilXI]

Wild concept, but instead of invoking their opinion of how low powered Magic should be, the rules committee are the ones who find like minded people to remove those things from their decks. Not gut an entire format of cEDH, potentially ruin hundreds of high end sellers’ portfolios/hurt tons of small LGSs caught holding product, OR alienate a large percentage of the population who do enjoy playing with some amount of power in their decks. Not to mention kill Red as a color in cEDH.

[@nikmidclayton5933]

Cedh is dumb, it will always play second fiddle to edh

[@NoMercyFtw]

If you get rid of soul ring you might as well get rid of every other piece that produces more than one mana including the lands

[@nikmidclayton5933]

I don't think you understand

[@NoMercyFtw]

@@nikmidclayton5933 no I do understand, but also getting rid of soul ring would make every precon illegal out of the box, and if you're going to ban soul ring then ban all of the fast mana but I don't believe in that because that's just going to make it harder for other decks to compete with green manacrypt was just having another better soul ring in your deck if you had the money for it, I don't think you understand

[@sunstrid3r44]

producing more than one mana =/= fast mana

[@nikmidclayton5933]

@@NoMercyFtw def not lands

[@ONEIL311]

@@nikmidclayton5933 temple of a false god… it basically suffocating everyone but green. Fast mana isn’t a problem if u actually deck build correctly. I get to play once a week maybe and I’m not a teenager anymore, I wanna play more then one game and not have 3 hour games constantly.

[@wunderbar5702]

You are telling me that a literal crown jewel of commander masters that I luckily pulled from a pack will not only sit in an album unused but also be worthless?

[@brianpendleton2674]

Yup, garbage

[@xAsh97]

Play it! Just specify pre-game, and be aware of deck construction/power level but if you explained you weren’t going to try and shut everyone out the game with it I’m sure people would be cool. Commander is meant to be fun, where we all get to express ourselves with our deck construction!

[@OGTahoe3]

I'd argue Nadu is another card that would be fine as a card in the 99 but should be banned as a commander. I was loving Nadu in my Kalamax combat tricks deck

[@TheForeverRanger]

They need to have a CZ ban list and a main deck banlist. Lutri should absolutely be allowed in the 99.

[@AutkastKain]

Banned as Commander would be so good. But complexity isn't always good. However, commander being the most expressive and flexible format means that Banned as Commander as a concept would be completely fine

[@VexylObby]

Not in decks where you can just activate Lightning Greaves.

[@potterypeaks]

I would agree with the idea of putting playability over monetary value, but it’s a casual format. Rule 0 should determine power level and bans should be reserved for cards that legitimately break the format. It is a collectible card game and I would argue a decision like this was a serious shot at collector first players.

[@danieldragotti2608]

Cedh has just became midrange hell. Dock side and Crypt are some of the few cards to break past rystic study. Basicly red decks; 5+cmc and frindge decks just got ruined

[@brandonchristner1520]

Lost $500 dollars today. RIP. That being said it is probably for the best of the format. I wish they would have hit Lotus sooner. Everyone knew what it was when it was spoiled years ago. This probably would have saved people a lot of money over time.

[@alexanderhenderson5583]

I wonder if much of the problem is nomenclature. I have always understood Commander to be a casual first, played around the kitchen table, with people you know and can negotiate the rules with. If your group is good with Primeval Titan, great! The ban list is meant to facilitate discussions and to create a more consistent experience when playing with strangers. As such, I wonder, again, if the problem is that it is called a "Ban List". Instead, perhaps a more descriptive heading would help. "If you are playing any of these cards, you need to permission from your playgroup, first," or "Don't play these cards with strangers." Honestly, I think that I might be in favor of a very long list of "banned"cards (perhaps broken into categories: fast mana, land destruction, durdling, etc.). Such a list changes the conversation from "Hey, I didn't really want to play against a Sorin---can you please play something else?" to "Yo, is it okay if i play my Sorry deck?" The onus should be on the player doing broken things to get permission, not on the rest of the players to attempt to cajole that person into playing something more toned down. In short, such a list should be a Rule 0 facilitator, not a way to bypass that conversation entirely.

[@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914]

there is already a solution for every commander player who wqnts fair competitive play : competitive commander is called Duel Commander. In march i played my first tournament, duel commander. Everyone knew Sol Ring is banned. It has been for a while

[@leadpaintchips9461]

The problem that I see is that Commander wasn't like that back when it was called EDH, nor is it that way now. I don't know the specific numbers, but it's been a rare time that I played Magic around a kitchen table, much less a 4 player version of it around a kitchen table. Nearly every time it's been in a public place, either at a game store, at a con, or some other larger gathering of other Magic players. Where it was rare, even showing up once or twice a week for over a year was the numbers and players locked in. Frankly it's hard to get the specific numbers, because it's not like everyone who is playing at their kitchen table with their roommates/family/friends is reporting that to a central organization. Calling it something else isn't going to change the fact that it's going to be called a banlist by the community. It's going to be a "We don't want to bother with Rule 0, so the list is banned.". I'm all for it though. Asking permission for a broken combo instead of expecting people to somehow divine and prevent something killing them from nowhere is a better experience. It might be the reason why I get targeted first, but I'd much rather people know how my decks work then winning by "Gotcha!".