Marc Victor's Response to Massad Ayoob's Five-Point Checklist (Part 1) (John's Briefs)

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Attitude. Skills. Plan.
(music in the outro courtesy of Bensound at www.bensound.com)

[@beagles70]

been to several court cases that were self defense related and served on a jury recently. I''ll take Victor's advice over Ayoob. Dont talk to police.

[@johnbravo1034]

Agreed. Thing is you can’t tell if you’re getting a good or bad cop so assume the worst.

[@pauljohnson9445]

@@johnbravo1034 My relative worked in a State Attorney's Office for over 20 years. He wouldn't say anything of significance when pulled over, because you don't know what kind of cop you're dealing with, and what if any agendas are at work. Just save it. Might be reading this later anyway...........if so............Hi Judge!

[@golvic1436]

I am more of the opinion that Mas give too much info, and lawyers advocate too little, because Mas assumes the positive situation (the well known druggie with nothing more than a knife and a crack pipe) and lawyers always go with the worst case scenario. I go with a hybrid of brevity is the best policy. I will state that I shot in self defense and I will cooperate fully after 24-48 hours once I have discussed this with my council. Not too much but certainly not clam up and become a “I want my lawyer” spewing robot unless it is clear that they want to make an example of you. That being said, know your local self defense laws by heart if you even think about carrying a gun because that is more telling on what your tolerances are than the generic advice Mas or Victor will give. Even better, get a local defense lawyer on retainer and ask them how the local authorities interpret the laws because in many cases the interpretation is more important than the text.

[@beagles70]

@@golvic1436 Be careful. I was alos married to a detective and she always advised her family to never say anything if police question you. She knew.

[@gregb6469]

What you don't say can not be held against you.

[@deanpeterson2272]

Love getting the perspective of different professionals. Both Massad's and Victor's opinions are very useful.

[@georgemoomaw9437]

Obviously this was recorded before the massive prosecutorial misconduct in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial. Prosecutor DID try to introduce Kyle’s right to remain silent as an argument for guilt.

[@ASPextra]

And got the smack down for it, too. Darn near caused a mistrial.

[@vrcmf3172]

And failed

[@vrcmf3172]

He literally also said… in extreme cases (which that was) they do try to hold the 5th against you. As to research only in big national cases and this is to sway PUBLIC opinion. Not to win any case

[@rp1645]

George. The massive media, already Anti Second Amendment right's. The MSNBC reporter following the Jurers. To find out were they lived. Thank gosh for good cop who stopped the Traffic violation's the speeding reporter was doing. If it BLEEDS it LED'S. The DA just out to Make a big case move him up in Political food chain. YES the Lawyer is right. To meany cop have made up there mind's, and want to be the Judge on calls of shooting.

[@mrfuriouser]

@@ASPextra That would have been AWFUL, though, for Kyle especially.

[@deanspring]

Every time I see Marc and hear his comments, I become more impresses.

[@jamesg7685]

We need to get Marc and Mas to wrestle!

[@mannyaguilar67]

I concur. His video “5 things every gun owner needs to know” should be a must watch on all concealed carry permit training!

[@scor440]

Impresses?

[@deanspring]

typo. Get a life.

[@deanspring]

typo. Get a life.

[@r.a.facklam4851]

I think I'm going to lean in the direction of don't say a word, that way your lawyer has a completely clean slate to start on. Massad is looking at things from a police officer's perspective, he was a cop for many years. I think his advice is coming from a very honorable man, but we have to remember, not everybody in the court system has as much honour as he does.

[@oklahomahank2378]

One of Massad’s best comments is that there is one slot on the form for “victim” and one for “perpetrator.” It is a good idea to make sure your name is in the “victim” slot. Because once police or prosecutors have made up their mind and constructed a narrative, it is almost impossible to change their mind.

[@pbp6741]

These experts are so interesting. All of them. Thank you for gaining us access to them.

[@DARKSIDEART2022]

Can you get these guys to do a video with Massad? I'd love to hear them have this conversation with each other. I'd be curious if either could change each other's minds, or perhaps just open their minds to the other's perspectives. I hope that made sense.

[@sjbesq1]

With due respect for Mas' expertise, I’m a criminal defense attorney in California and agree with every word counsel said.

[@ASPextra]

You and every attorney I have asked. :)

[@lxvideostuff7200]

why there are not victim defense attorneys? none of you defend victims and victims have to prove something, so that anything can, eventually, be done, and eventually, someone to get some interest, in seeing, that maybe, that guy can really be a victim... and a thousand eventual maybes latter a victim can get a start of some legal proceeding, which will lead to a thousand more eventual maybes. meanwhile... a thousand criminals just stays silent and get away in no time

[@rick-kx7gy]

I highly respect Ayoob. I see a classic case of his good intentions . But less than ideal methods . The best " hats " are the ones earned in a given field . Like they said no one size fits all . Both Victor & Ayoob are absolute top shelf in their perspective fields of expertise . Thanks John .

[@sananton2821]

respective

[@bobsmith-qu2oq]

Including assboob's statment that he does not feel the 2nd is for everyone and that non cops have NO RIGHT to carry?

[@rick-kx7gy]

@@sananton2821 yeah english wasn't my strong suit

[@kathymobley6303]

I agree. The argument to be quiet until you talk to counsel is still the best for me yet.

[@raymondrich6720]

I have also been through this, I will most certainly keep my mouth shut next time.

[@mynamesnotimportant6941]

you guys got to get together with Massad Ayoob! :)

[@rogerwiltfong4289]

This is outstanding material and should be essential for anyone purchasing a gun for self defense. Thanks to both Marc and Active Self Protection. You both are clearly top notch in your respective fields.

[@daxmac3691]

Another excellent program J-man. After a police shooting, police officers are told to shut up, and get their union lawyer 15:05 .

[@Guns.and.Mooneyes]

Thanks Marc.

[@rjtumble]

That fact that shutting up is the standard for police should really be enough of an argument.

[@NotMeNaNaNa]

Probably the best video on ASP extra with the discussion with Terry about what to do when you call 911 a close 2nd. Also the reason I’m glad I’m part of Marc’s AOR program 😎

[@johnbyman3605]

Many are commenting that Marc gave the better advise but I watched both videos and Marc and Massad both advised not to talk to the police. Massad however, further pointed out key crime scene pointers to CYA: The importance of being the first to call the police, you were the victim and would sign a complaint, you should ensure that evidence to prove your innocence is not tampered with or stolen from the scene by onlookers and that your potential collaborating witnesses do not leave the scene before being ID'd by the police. Lastly, Massad advises to respectively advise the police you will speak with them when you have your counsel present: Which is the same as invoking your right to remain silent but not overtly pissing the officers off doing it.

[@stevenmeatsandwich49]

I read a book Massad wrote, an he says to just tell the police you need medical treatment!!! The police can not question you while being medically treated, this will give you time to get your head straight!!! After a shooting most peoples adrenaline is pumping which make you a chatty cathy!!!

[@Steven-rp8zo]

Or you can just tell them you want to speak to your lawyer and will not be answering any questions. If you are an American it's your constitutional right, use it.

[@true1stresponder]

The police can question you while you are being medically treated. Please provide the court case that says otherwise.

[@sudokode]

"Alright, sir, tell us what happened..." *gives coherent summary* "Man, that guy was way too calm." "Put it in the report."

[@MagnumCreed]

Haven’t watched yet, but I’ve been wanting to hear this.

[@SK-cy2we]

Ladies and gentlemen, to protect yourself let alone your own family, you should be willing to risk any consequences or legal ramifications of your actions. If you lose in the court but your family is still alive, it was worth it!!!!!!.

[@admingeneral6532]

One advantage of saying nothing. If you are dealing with an officer or prosecuter who simply wants to hear your story so that they can then build their narrative AROUND your story to prove you did wrong (it is easy to make the evidence fit a bad narrative when they have more info)....then by saying anything....you have handed them their ammunition. If you say absolutely nothing.....they have to make up their narrative from scratch. If they have to do it from scratch.....it will be much easier to poke holes in their story when the truth comes out so you let them set themselves up for failure by making errors you can reveal in court.

[@davesbrewing]

As someone who has been through the system, I would love to have Massad Ayoob on my team, with that being said the idea that talking to the cops is a good idea is not so true. The cops have to deal with rogue prosecutors as well as the training to get the conviction, regardless of the facts. I also realize that I am not a lawyer and have not read every case that has stare decisis on my case , I will let my lawyer make the call as to what to say.

[@ShawnGS300]

You are correct. Just to add, the police are not your friends, they want to lock you up and put you in jail, that’s what they do. Same thing with the prosecutors.

[@davesbrewing]

@@ShawnGS300 Thank you sir.

[@chord972]

Excellent. Thank you.

[@baccable]

Great discussion gentlemen.

[@cosermann]

It can go wrongly for you either way (whether you say nothing, or if you adopt Mas' approach). If you keep your mouth shut, and exculpatory evidence may disappear, and/or favorable witnesses may vanish, etc. that could go against you too. As lawyers love to say, "it depends." There may be NO one-size-fits-all approach.

[@1watersthree]

That’s absolutely correct. You have to say something to establish that you were the victim but never anymore than the absolute bare minimum. The bare minimum would be call 911 and tell them you were in fear for your life, where you are at and to ask for police and paramedics. Don’t say anything beyond that and when the police get there only let them know that you were the victim and you have to let them arrest you otherwise you’ll be guilty of the charge of resisting arrest.

[@InGratitudeIam]

Then there's Paul Harrell's recommendation of taking lots of pictures of people, places and things before the cops arrive, in addition to remaining silent.

[@justindunlap1235]

Then take that sd card and put it in your wallet, because you will end up separated from your phone.

[@ASPextra]

I just can't imagine that's a good idea.

[@justindunlap1235]

Well not its a terrible idea to have a second copy considering things like this happen. This occurred in the county I live in. Where the prosecutor actually hid exonerating evidence from a cell seized after a self defense incident. Link to news story, m.inlander.com/spokane/blame-the-russians/Content?oid=11333979

[@InGratitudeIam]

@@ASPextra I think Paul was recommending that because when he was involved in a defensive shooting, witnesses and evidence disappeared. This way, he had a record of what was there at the time. You do raise a good point about something like that being used against you. In his particular case, Paul wanted to make sure he could prove that the scene he described at the time of the shooting actually existed and his attorney could use it as part of his defense.

[@ASPextra]

I mean, if you're in a remote area, waiting a long time for officers to respond, safe and bad guy is assuming room temperature, I suppose I could see it. Generally in suburbia? Less likely to be a good idea and could be taken as evidence of mens rea.

[@jonb102583]

I think getting Marc and Massad on camera together would be pretty cool to watch.

[@ASPextra]

I agree. Difficult to pull off.

[@jonb102583]

@@ASPextra Promise sammiches...everyone loves sammiches!

[@jamessavage8220]

Mas Ayoob's main goal with his statements and approach is to preserve the idea that you are innocent and prevent you from being charged if at all possible. It's also geared toward the person who has truly defended themselves. He makes it clear in step 5 of his approach is that you're very interested in cooperating further once you've spoken to your attorney. I don't think this is an either or situation. Both professionals have something to offer a self defense scenario.

[@theKashConnoisseur]

In another video it was brought up that, what if your lawyer's advice is to not cooperate with the investigation going forwards? If it's realized that your actions were either illegal or in a gray area, you wouldn't be advised to sit down and tell the cops everything.

[@stephanie_beth]

I find this and the second interview with Mark Victor incredibly informative. I do love and respect Moss, too.

[@williamrunner6718]

Great advice!

[@jaefrmbk2k]

ty much for this follow up 👍🏾🏆

[@asmamiller]

Excellent description of the job description of a CDL. I'm not sure many people really understand what the job of the lawyer is.

[@JT-xe7yi]

Massed won’t be defending you in court... stick with what your lawyer tells you to do. Shut up until they get there.

[@greatestever7623]

Yessssssssss 1000000000000%%%%%

[@musicman1eanda]

THANK YOU FOR THIS! Now I'll watch...

[@tedberwick3186]

Ty

[@billymitchem5256]

Great thoughts

[@timpatterson5905]

Anything you say can be used against you but anything you say can't be used for you. Found that out the hard way

[@MrCopTom]

Kinda weird and funny that when I first started watching your video > a commercial / advertisement video for Firearms Legal Protection came up before your video started. 🙂

[@johnwow4u]

Good show

[@jongreen5638]

I think the notable difference in prospective is that Marc is thinking about what will help you in court. Mas is thinking about how to stay out of court while giving yourself a leg up if you do end up on trial.

[@ASPextra]

That's a good perspective.

[@tomwinner5350]

Bingo. I’m having no issues comprehending what Mas was explaining. Bad guy did this. I thought I was in grave danger. I will 100% cooperate but I’m gonna stop and request legal counsel at this time. Don’t look guilty but keep your statement broad, this guy was going to hurt me/someone and I was forced to shoot. Omg I need to gather myself and get some legal council.

[@brandonfisher4436]

Yep Marc was a bit heated about this one and I get it 100%.

[@topazphoenix6301]

I really appreciate these videos. Every time Marc Victor is on, he challenges me to think and see different perspectives.

[@ASPextra]

Glad to hear it!

[@mannyaguilar67]

I concur. His videos are so educational. And I really appreciate how he is very conservative on his thinking regarding the use of firearms.

[@mikeford6149]

And this is why I'm a Attorneys On Retainer client.

[@SVTBansheeman]

I wouldn't taken legal advice from an instructor. But that's just me.

[@obsoletevalues6209]

Massad has served as a frequently-summoned expert witness in homicide court cases for 30 years, besides serving for decades in law enforcement as well. It would be interesting to know how many actual firearms-related homicide court cases both experts have participated in.

[@apuzyr]

Have you ever covered cases here in New Jersey? Apparently this state is very restricted; not allowing such a legal service.

[@muddyhobbs8543]

Like said depending the case

[@thebigokie6.4_392]

Marc knows!

[@MurraySellsHomes]

It's so interesting how this relates to family court as well. Pulling the trigger in other ways.

[@rationalthinker9181]

Realistically if you shoot someone and you aren't a policeman you are in shit. But one thing I know you can't talk your self out of prison but can talk yourself into it.

[@johnnyeubanks7657]

You will never go wrong excercising your right to remain silent and your right to an attorney PERIOD!!

[@ASPextra]

That's a fact.

[@calvinlong1265]

I had been told to tell the police that I'm going to cooperate, but that (1) I'm not feeling well and want to go to the hospital to get checked out (in my case I'd really need this), and (2) that I don't wave my right to remain silent, and (3) the right to an attorney and to have him/her with me during questioning.

[@mattc1602]

I think it’s horrible that someone will need an attorney when simply defending themselves. I like Marc and think he is right it’s just a shame lawyers, some policemen and judges have gotten us to this point. Damn shame.

[@ASPextra]

Welcome to the litigious society we inhabit...alas.

[@anonanon2614]

It's not a shame, it's vital to our justice system to have two opposing parties, that way we get close to justice

[@mikuspalmis]

@@anonanon2614 Not the point.

[@mikerenfro4608]

I can't wait for part 2!

[@FINfinFINfinFINfin]

Strange world when an off duty Brazilian Cop video gets 100 times more views than this video.

[@ASPextra]

Ugh! So true!!

[@earl240sx]

Thank you John, and Marc, and Massad for providing two very different perspectives on this topic. As someone who considers himself a reasonably intelligent person (yes, that is very open to debate), and like to think of myself as one of the "good guys", I have to believe that the correct answer lies somewhere in between the two given by Marc and Massad. While I do understand that, from the standpoint of defending yourself in court, the less you say the less there is that can be used against you, I do also believe there are times when saying the correct thing can prevent it from getting to that point. Not to mention, there could very well be circumstances where saying nothing could be putting your, the officer's, or other innocent people's lives at risk (e.g. if there were a second attacker who had run off). I will also admit, as someone who sincerely believes that the vast majority of police officers, and prosecutors (well, maybe not quite as high a percentage of prosecutors) are also good people, I probably still have more faith in our law enforcement system than many people, and certainly more than the average defense attorney.

[@SushiArmageddon]

Having more faith in the justice system than a defense attorney seems a naive position to take.

[@askunz1]

It would be great to have a video on the FISH case in AZ - got the burden of proof shifted. Very interesting facts. Very instructive.

[@ASPextra]

Yes but also no, and while the law changed because of Harold Fish, that didn't help Harold out at all.

[@askunz1]

@@ASPextra Yes I know. I think that case if very instructive to defenders. How the prosecutor made an issue out of the Delta Elite. I'd love to hear real reporting and analysis on it.

[@andycraddock7677]

I would love to be present during a discussion with John, Mr. Victor and Mr. Ayoob, because I would have a 1000 questions for them, most in the “Yes, ok but what if.....” category. This was fascinating. As always, thanks to John for posting.

[@ASPextra]

You can what if things to death, of course, and it's more fruitful to discuss the principles IMO.

[@andycraddock7677]

Active Self Protection Extra : Agreed, to a point. Even Mr. Victor posed hypothetical scenarios, which is what I meant.

[@forsakenquery]

The question I would ask Marc would be : if you were advising Masad himself, would you advise him to follow your advice or yours ?(removing the personality question of the defendant as well as negating much of the quality of judgment of the shoot)

[@17thwhiteprince]

I wanted more 😁

[@elite956]

I'm thinking about signing with Firearms Legal Protection.

[@j.j.2678]

seems like Marc had a few more points to go over, I would liked to know if there's a pt.2 of this video, if not there should be. Love to hear the experts discuss this more.

[@ASPextra]

There is indeed a part 2.

[@rtucker1004]

@@ASPextra #becauseASP

[@libarata]

Lol, a lawyer talking about being civilized. Good jokes!

[@waden404]

Prior 15yr deputy. Ayoob's video was good. Really great points. Now, as for Marks response......"is it a good shoot, is it a bad shoot?" That's up to a JURY to figure out. That is NOT up to the LEO responding. Refer the charges to the SAO or arrest. That is about the only thing the LEO can do. I appreciate the angle given from the lawyers perspective. My takeaway,,,,,,,getting a lawyer to discuss a 'what to do' video from his standpoint is gonna have its flaws. Lawyer is thinking about it from HIS training and what happens AFTER THE FACT. This is partly the problem with our culture now. Cops are going to hesitate due to the crap that has happened in the last few years. . One video is explained under the 'citizens hat' and this one is breaking down Ayoobs video from the advocate hat. Tricky situation, at best. Mark DOES have GREAT points here.

[@shadowgarr7649]

Wade, during your 15 years of service, did you encounter any 'bad apples' in law enforcement? If so, what did you do? The general public has seen the results of a bad cop's response. Now many folks don't know if the responding cop is the good guy or not.

[@JT-xe7yi]

There’s a reason why the cops use when they read you your rights the quote “anything you say CAN and WILL be used AGAINST YOU in a court of law” It’s the laws mission to do just that.

[@boztos6025]

Marc for the win. No doubt about it.

[@kathymobley6303]

I appreciated hearing both sides of the debate. I will still remain silent pending counsel but I did make up my mind I will speak up if evidence or witnesses are walking away without being catalogued or identified. (Are you going to let that witness go without getting a name?? Or, that's his knife getting kicked around over there). Except for that - nada. Zip. Name and I want to speak to an attorney

[@alanhelgeson690]

The very best legal advice I have ever received is Always keep your mouth shut and lawyer up ! As soon as possible !

[@MamboGuy914]

Does Marc have a retainer payment plan program? I love this lawyer!

[@crdowney1]

I disagree on the first impressions. With body cam, social media video, leaked security footage. By the time you get to the stand the first impression has been made, for better or worse. On the remain silent issue, I point to the Rittenhouse trial were the prosecution commented on Rittenhouse silence. I believe the trial starts a soon as you pull the trigger.

[@gwencrawford737]

"I believe the trial starts a soon as you pull the trigger." I would add to that... "AT THE LATEST". The trial begins in the moments BEFORE you use force (lethal or otherwise) to defend yourself. The decision making process you use to determine that use of force is NECESSARY to protect yourself, not only is going to weigh heavily in any legal outcomes... That same decision making process may be the difference between life and death in those fast breaking moments.

[@CaptVanO]

Mas is a retired cop and a shooting instructor. Great at both. Marc is a lawyer. A great one. I will take shooting advice from Mas but will take legal advice from Mark. No disrespect to Mas.

[@ASPextra]

Not a bad path to walk.

[@shadowgarr7649]

Always wonder when encountering a former cop how many bad cops did he take off the street?

[@nickcurry3051]

Glad to see this video! I really enjoy Mr. Ayoob as an instructor, but I take legal advice from my attorney.

[@GalileonPrime]

Apples to oranges. Ayoob's video was aimed squarely at the law abiding shooter, who acted in self defense. Ayoob presented a balanced view of police interaction at the scene, being an ex-cop and professional law officer trainer for many years, he has insight into the police mind set that an outsider like this attorney does not. This attorney on the other hand, has to represent both innocent and guilty shooters under similar circumstances, so naturally he has a different agenda. The key thing is, that as a defense attorney, guilt or innocence are only relevant in handling the accused and not in representing him. One of the facts that this attorney is not addressing, is that the officers at the scene can be called as witnesses during a trail and if you piss them off by not assisting with their investigation, it might cause them to describe your attitude at the scene as negative, obstructing and possibly withholding evidence. This might also be mentioned to the States Attorney, who will decide whether to go to trial or not. The fact of the matter is, coming across as a good, honest and concerned citizen who supported the police can forestall any potential problems. Full disclosure: I am in no way connected to law enforcement but, as CCW permit holder the last thing I need is a cop with a negative perception of me.

[@Johnny-dp5mu]

Agree, he wears one hat not two Lawyers with two hats which hat will he wear for you?

[@Steven-rp8zo]

You just characterized yourself and the situation as favorable to you, the defendant. That's assuming too much. The cop or the DA may not see it the same way. Just ask Kyle Rittenhouse. Many innocent men are sitting in prison right now because they assumed positive intent and everyone with a badge is a "good guy" looking for objective justice.

[@vidard9863]

the problem with your theory is you presume that you where correct and all knowing when you pulled the trigger. just because you were right, doesn't mean the evidence won't look like a bad shoot, and just because you were correct doesn't mean that you will explain yourself correctly or the officer will hear you correctly, for example if you *meant* to say " i couldn't get away. " and the officer *hears* " he couldn't get away. " or just *accidentally* wrote it down that way, it is a murder conviction. the key issue is as a lawyer what do you give as legal advice for a situation that hasn't happened yet, that your client will not be the one to choose to initiate? say nothing. that is the only advice that is *always* good. the third problem is the officer may recognize that you are trying to manipulate him by making a good impression while standing over your " victims" dead body, and decide to prove you are a sociopath. just because you *want* to make a good impression does *not* mean you will.

[@jabba0975]

"....if you piss them off by not assisting with their investigation, it might cause them to describe your attitude at the scene as negative, obstructing and possibly withholding evidence." Well then thank goodness for video evidence, when the cops can't destroy it, that shows what actually happened.

[@razorbeard6970]

It doesn't matter what the PD opinion is. If the subject invokes the 5th that fact can't be presented as evidence or suggestion of guilt by the prosecutor or any witness brought forth unless they want a mistrial.

[@jeffcj]

Interesting...

[@muddyhobbs8543]

Told you so

[@TheAndysim66]

Much better look minus the vest!!

[@paraAA82]

John...very good video...Well, it depends if you root for Mass or for Marc...

[@ridermak4111]

I think we have to keep in mind that Mas was talking to people who were justified, not to those who acted criminally. And he has seen the tricks used in the courtroom. The most important thing is DONT ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS. Instead of Miranda reading “anything you say may be used against you”, a more honest and clear wording would be, “Nothing you say can ever be used in your favor”. In that light, logic would dictate silence.

[@BigBearCarolina1]

Massad was speaking to the good guys. Attorneys, especially defensive Attorneys make their money off of both good guys and bad guys.

[@Treblaine]

"the jury are instructed they cannot make any negative inference from silence" Meanwhile, in the UK: "yes jury, you absolutely can infer guilt from excercising their right to silence and we strongly suggest you do. How dare someone actually try to use their right the one time they need it."

[@Dmv216661]

Please do a full podcast like JRE but with lawyers, and defensive shooters, and self defense guys and stuff. Something free form in the same way as joe rogans podcast where you dont set out to talk about specifics neccisarily unless something big happened. I'd listen in a HEARTBEAT

[@cam7105]

I think it really does depend on the kind of cops and area you’re in. A bunch of good ol boy cops in a small town probably are going to be deferential to someone in a SD situation especially if they’re licensed and the situation is somewhat obvious. In a large city that leans towards an unfriendly perspective of guns and ccw’ers then that’s a different scenario and it’s probably wise to keep what you say to a minimum. I also tend to think there’s a balance to be struck here. You want to frame the situation so they immediately know you’re the victim, eg “they came at me with a knife”, “he aimed a gun at me and tried to kill me” and then explain you want to cooperate but you need medical attention first and time to consult a lawyer. Ultimately, this attorney’s job is to make sure you win at trial, Mass’ advice is geared towards keeping you out of court to begin with. For right or wrong, if you refuse to say anything at all you will most assuredly be arrested, fingerprinted, and booked into jail where you will sit until arraignment, and if you’re denied bail, there you will stay until the conclusion of your trial, which could be weeks or months away. It’s possible to give enough information to establish yourself as the victim without talking your way into a murder 2 charge. Refusing to talk will undoubtedly piss off the cops who are not often shy about exercising their authority when that authority is challenged by your refusal to cooperate. Any video of people walking down the street refusing to show ID or answer questions illustrates this.

[@zplates]

What about changing Mas's point to point out evidence - to record / note evidence only for *yourself* to share only with your attorney?

[@careymcwilliams3277]

Good points. blanket rules and scrips could kill your case. Biowise, mind is gone and with it the legal jazz and its all about surviving when it goes down, so do what you need to resolve the situation and let the court do what it does, because if you debate too much and try to play chess in a dodgeball situation, court stuff won't matter, because your dead.

[@BigcatMilo]

A HUGE reason people don’t get a lawyer when talking to the cops (especially if they’re innocent) is $$$$. Why pay a lawyer thousands of dollars when they’re innocent.

[@kennethwilgers9684]

I think what Mr. Ayoob was trying to convey is what we all see when we watch the Dateline and 20/20 cases. All too often, the police get a first impression and run with it, and when they present it to the prosecutor, that office follows suit. He isn't so much worried about if the prosecutor is going to bring up the defendant's silence in court, because they aren't allowed to. He is trying to get the heat off of the shooter BEFORE any significant target is put on him or her. A smug response or no response by the shooter can prejudice the investigators, causing a great deal of stress, effort and expense to the shooter, whether or not there is a guilty verdict. If the officers get a favorable first experience with the shooter, it could mean a much easier road for the shooter, with no charges filed in the first place. I'm no expert. I'm just pointing out that Mr. Ayoob is arguing oranges and Mr. Victor is rebutting the argument with apples.

[@johnstack5008]

if it's clearly a good shoot, it looks like it doesn't really matter if you remain silent or not. You're not worried about being charged for anything. However, if it could be perceived as a questionable shoot, everything I'm hearing is that you should remain silent. But Mr. Ayoob is telling you to speak when the shoot could be perceived as questionable. He's not just going against Mark Victor, but pretty much every criminal defense attorney.

[@jefferypeterson2119]

I understand what the lawyer says. Whoever in reality people will come to a preconceived idea or feeling regardless what jury instructions are. You cant not unheard what is heard. People will still hold bias based on what is heard even though they may be told not to.. people are people.

[@janneskruger001]

Can't argue with Marc's viewpoint. With great respect to Massad, most people in a situation like that are bound to say stupid things. Better to shut up as a blanket rule. Especially in South Africa where the law states that you are automatically a murder suspect if you kill someone, no matter the circumstances.

[@FisherCatProductions]

Apples and oranges. I might agree...if I were in South Africa. Neither man can give a universal answer. Hard enough to answer to USA law--which is what they are speaking about.

[@fredeaster5962]

No matter how smart or educated you are if you do not have law experience don’t talk to the police regardless if you were 100% in the right. He is a former cop with years and years of experience in the police field don’t talk until you get an attorney you have no idea what type of cop comes to the scene

[@sonofjesus185]

What about using the phone call the police on speaker and take pictures the scene. Where the subject two went down at? Where subject one fired at like shell casings?

[@LifeUnlocker]

1:45 3:00 4:00 6:00 9:00 12:00 why remain silent 13:00 good shoot 14:00

[@lukenordvick1861]

I guess I’ll go with massad and Andrew Branca. Did this guy jut say not to be the first one to call the police?

[@askunz1]

EXCELLENT VIDEO - Summary - Criminal Defense attorney says SAY NOTHING, CALL YOUR ATTORNEY. Use of Force Expert has a different ideal scenario. Let your defense attorney hire the expert when that is appropriate for you. TAKE AWAY- have a good defense attorney number in your phone and on a card in your pocket, and call that guy as soon as his advice is relevant.

[@PPISAFETY]

I have trained with Massad Ayoob and have tremendous respect for him as a use of force expert.. But on this point I think Mas is a little bit out of his lane. I also spent 30 years in law enforcement and never saw a suspect improve his situation by talking. I've seen suspects who didn't actually commit a crime really look like they did just because they are scared. Prosecutors absolutely are not allowed to comment in any way, shape, or form in court on you remaining silent. If you want to see one try and get slapped down by the judge, look at the videos on KZbin of the Kyle Rittenhouse case, and watch prosecutor Thomas Binger get his ass handed to him in open court when he tries to mention this only in passing. The judge is furious. It's a big deal. I've seen this result in a mistrial on the spot. Finally, if you want to see what being helpful to us cops can get you, check out the Michael Drjeka case out of Florida. Drejka is the guy who pulled into his local convenience store, and saw someone parked in a handicapped space without a sticker. The girl inside the car had a back seat full of kids, and was waiting on he boyfriend, Markeis McGlockton who had another child with him inside. Drejka approaches and gets into a discussion with her that she turns into a display of drama. McGlockton, who is younger and stronger, comes up from behind Drejka and pushes him to the ground violently, with no provocation. Drejka draws his Glock 23 and fires one shot into McGlockton's chest from a seated position. McGlockton staggers back into the convenience store where he dies in front of his very young son. The whole event is caught on a security camera. This is arguably a good shoot. Drejka tried to be a good scout. He called the police on himself. He unloaded his Glock and secured it in his vehicle. He led police to the gun immediately. He pointed out the cars of witnesses. He told them generally what had happened and claimed self-defense at the scene. He mentioned that his father had served in the Highway Patrol, but forgot that didn't make him a cop.. He used what he thought were police terms like "21 foot rule" to explain why he fired. And guess what? All of his words were used against him in court. Michael Drejka was convicted of murder and sentenced to 20 years without the possibility of parole. He has already appealed his conviction and already lost. His life as he knew it is essentially over. And, as an added bonus he has already survived an attempted murder by a fellow inmate seeking to avenge his killing of McGlockton. Does any of this sound like fun? No? This is why real defense attorneys tell you to KEEP YOUR DAMNED MOUTH SHUT!

[@Nimbus495]

Turn your phone on & video everything.

[@marcoluoma3770]

Um. So the attorney says that we always should talk to the attorney first? Pretty easy to see the financial incentives for that advice.

[@lxvideostuff7200]

as yet another guy confirms, there is only 1 law - the jungle law.

[@dayjo325]

Massad never said to have diarrhea of the mouth.

[@firedrake7179]

THANK YOU JOHN!!!!! Many of us were really wanting to see this. You crack dealer now...