Marvel Dialogue HAS to Change

[@captainmidnight]

Do you think the MCU should experiment with less joke-y dialogue? Give to charity by going to www.givewell.org/ pick KZbin and enter "captainmidnight"

[@hunterrousseau3770]

I believe so. I think after the overall MCU soft-reboots after "Avengers: Secret Wars" they should take heavy inspiration from animated Marvel content like; "X-Men: The Animated Series, The Spectacular Spider-Man, The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur" much like Peter Safran and James Gunn's new DC Universe will take inspiration from animated DC content like; any of the in-continuity projects of the overall "DC Animated Universe (DCAU), and the show: "Young Justice" too

[@feeWAIVER]

They did with Eternals, and everyone hated on it.

[@FULANODETAL]

just HIRE real writters...with experience,,not noob ones with literaly 0 like in DR STRANGE MOM,,OR JESSICA GAO ..who only wrote a lame episode of rick and morty

[@NadeemShekh-uy9zn]

Yes absolutely its time to get serious

[@ArynWellspring]

I genuinely think it’s too late to change things up. The MCU needs to be put on ice after they close this storyline

[@spicymemes7458]

I remember early in the MCU that everyone was distinctive. Thor was Shakespearean, Steve Rogers was from the 40s, Bruce Banner was an awkward scientist. They all don't have to be as quippy and sarcastic as Tony Stark.

[@BlazingOwnager]

People are learning the wrong lesson here. Every single one of them was a quip machine in Avengers, but it worked because - and this is key - the writing was sharp and the actors were perfect. Once they started replacing comic book industry veterans in droves and replacing them with nobodies that tick the right political boxes, the writing took a 90 degree nosedive and now it's all insufferable. Seriously, go watch an old Marvel movie. The problem is not quipping, it's TERRIBLE quipping.

[@spicymemes7458]

@@BlazingOwnager I have seen it all at this point. Even when it was good, it was homogeneous in its design and execution. Has nothing to do politics, women in lead roles, etc. It became formulaic and stripped filmmakers of their individuality in exchange for the "sacred timeline" and nexus events that shan't be violated or risk jeopardizing the carefully constructed plan from the top I'd argue that MCU Phase One had characters that were distinguished from the rest, and after the first Avengers is where it started to mix. A kind interpretation is that it's a team and a family and spending time with any group for long enough and they adopt each other's traits. On the other hand, people liked the Stark Sass and wanted to give that to everyone. It made the movies light and airy, but losing their sense of uniqueness in between the characters.

[@fnordiumendures138]

@@BlazingOwnager Yes, it could be done, but in the long run it's unsustainable. If every character talks like Spiderman you only have one character voice. If every project needs a Joss Whedon, you can only hire Joss Whedon wannabees. The whole genre has painted itself into a corner.

[@One.Zero.One101]

It used to be that one guy in the group was the sarcastic smartass ie: Han Solo or Chandler Bing. Today even the serious characters are trying to be like Tony Stark.

[@martophrenia]

exactly, Whedon (and his co-writers on his shows) understood that characters HAVE to sound different

[@somerandolad]

Marvel should really learn that not every hero has to be quippy.

[@chasehedges6775]

Exactly

[@chasehedges6775]

To quote Elvis Presley: A little less conversation, a little more action

[@omariwalker1006]

Black Panther was a good example of that

[@angelantayhua3096]

And that every scene does not need a joke.

[@ultimateslinger9857]

I’d say it suits Spider-Man (duh) and iron man best. I like the jokes a lot. You can have others make them too, because humor is a very human thing. But definitely don’t for serious moments. That’s where some of the movies get it wrong

[@BatAmerica]

While the quips are annoying, the core frustration isn't just the jokes but how they fit these characters. While Phase 1 had its quippy moments, they worked in context, with Tony being the best example. It makes sense when he talks about getting shawarma or a cheeseburger in The Avengers or Iron Man because he uses humor to deflect emotional turmoil. Tony gravitates to humor through food since it is one of the few things he can unapologetically control. Meanwhile, what motivation does Captain America or Ultron have to quip when it doesn't feed into their handling of stress?

[@jeanking4686]

Ultron quips feels more like his emulation of human emotion while himself being disgusted of human and how they interact, sort of like a way of mocking them. And yes, after watching the charqcter of captain in the first movie, his quips in avengers and age of ultron feels more like he was a caricature of his own persona moresi than anything close to his characterization in the first movie. Marvel just saw audiences connecting with how their characters are shown through meaningful quips and thought to make more money every character have to have quips.

[@One.Zero.One101]

Today Black Widow is making quips, Hawkeye is making quips, Dr. Strange is making quips, Wong is making quips, Thor is making quips, Jane Foster is making quips, Valkyrie is making quips. It's a trope I like to call "Everybody's Tony Stark".

[@martophrenia]

Ultron is "the son" of Stark, he hates him but also wants to impress him, he thinks humans are the problem but still creates the body for himself that resembles a human, it makes sense for him to imitate Tony. And also the characters in the first two Avengers talking very differently, you can usually just read the line and attribute that line to a specific character

[@breadtubediet1524]

Ultron's quips make sense, he's the progeny of Stark and his quips act as kind of a mocking mimicry of humanity as Ultron sees it (through Tony Stark). Captain America, Thor, Dr. Strange, and Black Widow stand out to me as the most unfitting for quippy dialogue. Hawkeye can at least play up his underdog status in funny ways, and I thought Bruce's "I'm always angry" line in The Avengers landed perfectly. But those kinds of moments should be sparse for those characters imo. Let Iron Man, Spider Man, Starlord, and Rocket soak up the bulk of opportunities to quip. Let the serious characters stay serious to provide contrast and heighten the humor with their austere reactions.

[@bluerobin7051]

As an extension of this, the MCU Spider-Man movies are a perfect use of that original tone. Spidey should be making those dumb jokes.

[@NadeemShekh-uy9zn]

I genuinely believe James Gunns first Guardians of the Galaxy movie really has had a unintentional impact on the way writers write Marvel movies i miss when thor was written with a more serious shakespearean personality of the first thor movie

[@the_o_man]

Agreed. I hate how much Thor talks like a frat boy

[@derek96720]

I've been saying for years that GotG 1 ruined Marvel dialogue. Everyone was gushing over the quips in that movie so much that it caused Marvel to make EVERY subsequent film have similar dialogue.

[@luchomscyfy]

​@@derek96720I think it was Whedon. In Avengers 2 several characters are more quippy than the first one. Sure, GotG has some fault, but every movie has to have humor: Dr Strange, Anti Man, Captain Mehvel....humor miedo with action. And then, everything went to 11. More humor, than action, than drama.....than plot.

[@ThePrinceofHisOwnKingdom]

@@luchomscyfy AoU featuring a more quippy Avengers itself was a response after GOTG 1. I'm sure the studio had Whedon to do so. It's also not a coincidence AoU had the same production designer and cinematography GOTG 1. The fault is on the studio.

[@EpsiIonEagle]

Shakespeare in the park?

[@galactic85]

Studios don't want screen writers to write meaningful character driven dialogue exchanges. They want meme material.

[@rahbeeuh]

Memes are typically incidental. Forcing material to be memes kinda ruins it

[@THEINFINITIVERSESAGA]

@@rahbeeuh😮😮😮😮😮I feel personally attacked by this for some reasons

[@biazacha]

@@rahbeeuh they trying desperately to replicate Barbenheimer and failing during this whole year is the perfect example of it - there’s ways to non organically create a viral moment but big studios have absolute no clue how internet culture work.

[@ThePrinceofHisOwnKingdom]

Thanos' dialogues are meaningful and character driven. His memes are the most popular.

[@hariman7727]

The irony is that the character driven quips of The Avengers are what became the meme material.

[@StephenDukenski]

“Telling their stories in air quotes” nails it.

[@AlexTekle]

Like you said, I feel like a lot of popular properties nowadays are afraid of being sincere. Witty and irreverent dialogue can be fun but I appreciate stories that can also manage to be deep and sobering.

[@ljqbeqyxt]

I feel like stuff like the 2000s just endlessly making fun of frodo and sam for being “gay” was the death of sincerity in big movies

[@ljqbeqyxt]

like even the hobbit films threw some desperate “no homo” and “thats a man” jokes in there

[@hydra7427]

It's not just that they're not sincere, they feel embarrassed to exist. "Aw man, we gotta go defeat the evil supervillain? But that's so lame and cliche." Indirect mockery of the audience for coming to the theater.

[@maxpops8427]

Dial it back to the 2000s where properties we’re afraid of being quircky. Sometimes it worked like Nolan’s Batman but other times it didn’t

[@BP-dn9nv]

Star Wars comes to mind. If I'm to immerse myself in a fictional world like that one I need to feel like everything weird that happens is an ordinary occurrence in it. Constantly acknowledging how crazy everything is just takes me out of it.

[@paradoxinraindrops141]

It's important to understand Tony as a character was naturally funny, but as the MCU went on: then you come to understand Tony was a very hurt man who used comedy as a weapon and a shield. Even in the first Avenger's film, Stark was distinct from the other team members and he even butts heads with Cap (a man who worked with his father), who at first sort of thinks Stark is just another empty suit and a bully. But they eventually see eye to eye, and become good friends who respected one another as the films progressed. THAT is what is important. I don't mind quipsters, but when everyone is doing it you enter the realm of self parody which makes getting invested in the character drama and the threats they face all the more difficult.

[@neospock5034]

Tony being funny was strictly an MCU thing due to RDJ. In the comics Tony Stark was more of a depressed, dour type who rarely cracked a joke. Other characters (most notably Spider-Man and Beast) were far more quippy.

[@paradoxinraindrops141]

@@neospock5034 I've always heard this was sort of the case. But I still think them playing to RDJ's strength, it rubs off on the character well. And that stuff is present, without going fully "Demon in A Bottle" the films show the effects of Iron Man's depression, his anxiety and PTSD like in Iron Man 3.

[@rogueguardian]

I think it's one of the reasons why I love Ryan coogler and James Gunn for some reason they always knew how to balance the humor in a way that was genuinely funny, and it never felt inconsistent.

[@Vor567tez]

James has understanding of the character. I am curious to see his DC bcs he is getting Superman who is drastically very different from his previous characters. Gotg or TSS all had negative characters and he pulled them off well.

[@cahe6161]

Black Panther 1 and 2 humor isn't good (Except for M'Baku that guy's hilarious)

[@dragonsword8129]

@@Vor567tezI was nervous when I heard that he’s directing Superman, but all the stuff that he’s said about the character has gone a long way to fill me with confidence. He definitely seems to understand that Superman requires a different approach than his previous films.

[@Tokyoprism]

This is so false. Gotg2 is easily one of the most egregious cases of Marvels humor problem. That movie was so overloaded w humor, it was awkward in theatres because every other line was a joke, there were sooo many that didn’t land. Shit was just exhausting by the halfway mark. I’ll always remember that about that movie

[@antona.1327]

Of all the directors you could've mentioned, you definitely picked the wrong ones, pal. Coogler is guilty of the awful use of bathos (I don't care if it was his decision or MCU's mandate), but by god... Gunn is insufferable with the use of humor. I'm fine with you liking his movies - I don't - but don't lie and pretend that he isn't part of the problem with the MCU's humor. The worst thing of all, he doesn't even write jokes that are natural. He writes ugly, obscene, loud and obnoxious nonsense that verges on parody. And not even good parody movies, like Airplane.

[@YaleStewartArt]

"[They] feel like they've been telling their stories in air quotes" has gotta be one of the best summations of these movies I've read yet.

[@StuartLugsden]

The one thing they need to fix is the humour. Not every character needs to be a comedian. It works with Tony, some can crack a couple jokes every now and then but there are some who need to be taken seriously.

[@uncannydcmarvelous5732]

What about Spidey, the king of quips?

[@StuartLugsden]

@@uncannydcmarvelous5732 Yeah he works as well

[@Googledeservestodie]

Remind me of the Honest Trailer for Black Panther where he jokes that "he's not like the other Marvel superheroes because he.... Does. Not. Quip." And as the straight man and noble king figure it makes sense. I feel like they may have tried to do the same straight man noble character in Shang Chi, but then wrote in Awkwafina to provide the Marvel "Funny" which was a mistake.

[@captainjerry4146]

The only people who should be quippy or generally comedic are like Iron Man, Spidey, Quill, Drax and like that's it. Thor was never just the "funny" character. Thor was one of the most heartfelt, sympathetic and dramatic characters. And I feel like they sacrificed such a well developed character for a joke

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@captainjerry4146 His Shakesperean thing wasn't working though, that's why they changed him.

[@thegreatandterrible4508]

The issue is that the dialog was great, when it was Tony doing it. Making every character the wisecracker is boring. Actually think back to the movies before the Avengers. Only Tony quipped.

[@paradoxinraindrops141]

Tony was a sardonic quipster (and the more the films went on, you realized Tony was a brilliant but very hurt man who used comedy as a weapon and a shield). Cap was still behind the times, kind of a square but he was a stand up dude, Bruce was a nerdy scientist afraid of his shadow, Natasha was a stone cold badass and Thor was in that trasinsitonal phase, going from Godly strong man humbling himself to party bro Thor that we saw from Taika. And then there was Hawkeye, who rounded out the team as the everyman who was skilled enough to keep up with the squad. It's been awhile since I've seen The Avengers but Whedon's voice (especially comedically) was on full display. But the characters were distinct, they grew as a team over the course of the film (responding to an event that would feel street level in the current MCU). When everyone is an irreverent quipster, it makes everything sound one note and when no one is taking the threats seriously? It becomes hard to get invested and fear for them.

[@MatanVil]

Marvel needed either limit the number of quipsters, Ghostbusters would be cringe if everybody was like Peter Venkman (2016), or just have someone who has the Leslie Neilson-architype where he is just unphased by everything.

[@THEINFINITIVERSESAGA]

Bros acting like Tony stark invented jokes n quips abeg go n sit down fan boy

[@paradoxinraindrops141]

@@THEINFINITIVERSESAGA That's not what he's saying at all, just that part of the success of Iron Man was that more lighthearted feel it had. The film, for how utterly chaotic the production was, manages to balance the drama and comedy aspects well. Faverau likely wasn't aiming for Whedon's style exactly, but it landed close enough that bringing in Joss (who always had that style going back to Buffy) made sense. And it worked. Superhero movies weren't moody and edgy like Daredevil, they were fun and their characters had some pep in their step. It is contributed a great deal of success to the MCU. It's not being a "fan boy" to point that out, it just means you have basic levels of media comprehension.

[@thegreatandterrible4508]

@@THEINFINITIVERSESAGA I'm saying that Tony is a character who jokes around. Now that he's dead, it would be, say, Spider-man. My point is that it's not good for everyone to be the jokes guy. I don't really care whether the jokes guy is Tony or not.

[@TheShockVox]

I think the main problem is every character does it. Well every hero. Part of why I enjoyed Black Panther, the character, is because he was arguably the only main hero who didn’t do the typical MCU humor. Ever since Civil War when his response to Clint saying his name being “I don’t care”, I was in love. But anyway, it’s about which character does what type of dialogue. It suits Tony Stark perfectly. It suits him. Ant Man? Yeah totally. Hawkeye even has his own flavor. Ironically Spider-Man could’ve used more quipping in his thwiping. But when I heard Captain America do it in Age of Ultron, that’s when I first noticed the it’s not a one size fits all thing. Especially when it feels so jarringly out of character (there’s whiplash hearing Cap in Winter Soldier but then hearing him in Age of Ultro quipping at robots).

[@EdWedgie]

Yeah I’m tired of watching Chris Hemsworth laugh at things he knows isn’t even funny

[@BlazingOwnager]

I think the main problem is the current writers are bad at it. Do an experiment: Go watch some old Marvel movie clips. They are actually quick witted and really funny and enjoyable, even now. The WRITING went way down hill as they started dropping comic veterans and people that love this stuff for people who tick the right boxes.

[@GuineaPigEveryday]

I’m gonna be honest, this is why i really did not like the way they changed his character for Black Panther. He was perfectly written in Civil War the way that T’Challa refused to quip with the other characters, felt more in line with his comic portrayal, or at least from Earth’s Mightiest Heroes, then in Black Panther they kept having him make silly jokes like ‘what are those!!’ and stuff about his guards and it felt cringe. I love the sort of royal composed solemn/wise king character that i associate with T’Challa’s Black Panther, which is what they showed in Civil War.

[@georgezee5173]

Age of Ultron is horrible in the quipping stuff... As you mentioned, Whedon even made Cap have that kind of personality, even though most of the time, in that very movie, he was portrayed seriously. The worst Cap joke I remember was the one when they're surrounded in Sokovia, Thor shouts at Ultron something like "is that the best you can do??" and when all the Ultron drones appear, Cap looks at Thor and says something like " you had to say that...". Totally out of character and, especially, out of the serious tone they've been trying to sell during most of the movie (the film does feel a little bit like a Frankenstein in tone).

[@ShockwaveFPSStudios]

@@georgezee5173I don’t know bro, I felt like that line was funny as it fits Cap’s character Post-WS. Compared that line to the “I am Steve Rogers” line from Infinity War. It wouldn’t have been funny as it’s not something Steve would say.

[@darkwoods1954]

The problem is EVERY character in the MCU now has to be ''quippy'' and it makes the whole universe feel tongue in cheek. Like no one writing it takes any of it seriously anymore. So why should the viewer? It all becomes meaningless.

[@the_bru]

What you're discussing here is actually why I think Infinity War works so well. The heroes go in arrogant, quippy, thinking the battle is fun. And then they fail. They've been programmed to believe for 20+ movies at that point that everything would work out, and it doesn't. It was really effective, and it's still in my top-two Marvel movies as a result.

[@MorningChoco]

I disagree. The main characters' conflicts were not realistic because they acted like a comedy in scenes that should have been serious.

[@smelltheglove2038]

Any genre that’s been so saturated is gonna lose the interest of the general public. The comic book fad is done. Thank the lord.

[@Natta44]

"New haircut? I see you copied my beard?" Like how was this included on the battlefield in Infinity War? They genuinely act like this is a Friday afternoon at work. Then half of them die.

[@roguebarbarian9133]

@@smelltheglove2038 As much as the naysayers want to believe that; it's simply not true. Movies like GotG Vol 3 and Across the Spiderverse were massive commercial successes. People still want to see superhero movies, and I'd argue more so than ever, since the last crop has been so disappointing. They just want something better than the movies that flipflop between painfully paint-by-the-numbers, and mind-numbingly dumb. The moment a good superhero movie does financially bad, then I'll agree with you that people have moved on. But I haven't seen it happen yet.

[@grabble7605]

@@smelltheglove2038 Comic books aren't a fad. They're a medium.

[@joaquinwaters1810]

Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3 is a perfect example of handling this tone right. Even though objectively the film has far smaller stakes than Quantumania or Love and Thunder (saving Rocket and a few hundred test subjects vs. saving the entire universe), it feels so much more intense because the jokes (while there aplenty) are balanced by a sense of real drama. It never really felt like Kang actually could take over the universe, or like Gorr could wipe out the gods, because the heroes never treat the situation with that much gravity. But in GotG Vol 3, the Guardians are scared to lose their friend, and by extension the audience is scared because it feels like they really could.

[@nonbinarygenderqueerhomosa8820]

No guardians 3 was terrible at handling tone. There were too many important moments undercut by jokes like the among us scene or drax talking about taking a shit while telling starlord to move on. The move should have had little to no comedic elements

[@joaquinwaters1810]

@@nonbinarygenderqueerhomosa8820 hard disagree there, but I respect your opinion

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@nonbinarygenderqueerhomosa8820 When the MCU does movies that are 100% serious you still complain. So they can't win.

[@nonbinarygenderqueerhomosa8820]

@@ShadowSonic2 Who is "you" in this statement? Quips and the endless streams of joke in those movies are exhausting. Show me one marvel movie that is 100% serious because there isn't a single one

[@MQTate]

"Uhhh well that just happened" I say as I see this video pop up in my notifications and I start screehing with glee like a chimpanzee

[@Coolcoolcooldude]

Fun fact, that phrase has never been said in an MCU project so far. But it's that type of humor that the phrase represents. I don't mind humor in MCU projects, but they need to also have emotion behind it. Like Black Panther 2 had 3 jokes in it.

[@johnman8398]

@@CoolcoolcooldudeThat phrase/meme is a distorted representation of humour in the MCU and is the living embodiment of the problem with most MCU criticism post phase 3.

[@EdWedgie]

I’ve seen everything MCU since I was a 13 year old boy in 2008 and I just feel like I’m in too deep to stop but they also inspired me to actually branch out and look for quality movies and the difference is night and day with the dialogue.

[@galactic85]

I've watched since I was the same age. I called it quits. I just read the comics instead.

[@EdWedgie]

@@galactic85the comics are definitely better. MCU just simply got me into binge watching if I can say the least, I saw some earlier superhero films but never got hooked until phase 1 mcu lol

[@BlazingOwnager]

The MCU ended with endgame if you don't count the No Way Home and Guardians 3 epilogue.

[@EdWedgie]

@@BlazingOwnager you’re talking to the wrong person as if this hasn’t been said like a thousand times, shut up let people watch what they want

[@modernwarrior24]

​@@EdWedgiethe problem is they want everyone to be a tony stark. And the thing is not everyone is tony stark.

[@azn1011]

when it comes to the MCU, i think two things happened simultaneously: they over learned from both the success of their own movies (especially that first Avengers movie) and looked at the negative reaction people had to the overly serious tone of the DCEU (especially it's earlier Snyder lead films) so as a result they overstuffed their movies with the quipy, Whedonesque dialogue i do agree that a real sense of earnestness is really missing from Hollywood blockbusters these days. i think a part of it is the over reliance on sarcastic and ironic dialogue we've talked about but i also think internet culture, were everything is a meme or has to be a joke has also played a part. one thing i liked about last years Avatar 2 was that it treated the idea that this young Na'vi was talking to a whale like it was completely normal and not a joke at all.they didn't treat it over seriously but they treated it with respect and earnestness. that type of thing i feel is really missing from a lot of modern blockbusters.

[@benwasserman8223]

Well that is unfortunately part of the mainstream dialect. It’s why people constantly use overbearing Morbin Time jokes to wave away new movies/shows under the cynical belief that they’re destined to be terrible.

[@zenquantum1246]

Godzilla Minus One is a great recent example of how to ground a ridiculous premise through sincere characters. It felt fresh because every moment was taken seriously by the characters. Could two battleships successfully pull off a coordinated maneuver within feet of one another without practice? Absolutely unlikely, but you buy the determination of everyone involved and feel the stakes of what they’re fighting to defend. The wants and stakes of heroes and villains in the post-Endgame MCU have been too muddled to have that kind of impact

[@johnolmos8670]

Marvel made every movie a comedy. Literally after Avengers came out every movie was quippy quirky and sarcastic

[@mr.punisher5100]

They're doing a great job at comedy, unintentionally. I laughed when Kang got bombarded by ants, when Sam Wilson said "you gotta do better senator", when Monica said "they'll never know what you sacrificed for them", and laughed when Wanda started an exposition monologue when America Chavez was right in front of her. There's a lot more I could name too

[@tobiaslawrence8928]

Eh! Agree and disagree

[@BrokenCornholio1537]

@@mr.punisher5100 "you gotta do better senator" Good lord I remember that scene. Jesus Christ, you couldn't get anymore preachy and on the nose than that...

[@IvyInception]

I don’t think The Winter Soldier was. It had some humor and jokes but it wasn’t quips and quirky dialogue. I rewatched it recently and was surprised by how serious and intense it felt. It didn’t feel fun or humorous, I was on the edge of my seat the entire time. There are many other MCU films between Avengers 1 and Endgame that have serious moments but more of that humor. I would say it’s not that overwhelming or annoying in some of them, but to each their own. Civil War also felt more serious to me despite more quips with Peter and Tony.

[@rogueguardian]

The thing is the quipy dialogue works when it fits the characters. Spider-Man, the Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant man those characters feel like they would say certain things in The situations they find themselves in. When you make every character like that it takes away from what makes the others special. Not to mention classes with the tone. I know, comic books are campy but it doesn't mean they always crack jokes. I think it's part of the reason why most films feel the same.

[@lunaitor-uq9hz]

It's also important to BALANCE IT OUT Say, if a character just sacrificed themselves to save the multiverse and is currently dying in front of the main characters, neither the characters nor the movie itself should be making jokes, especially about the character dying because it's not appropiate (ejem-Quantumania-ejem) Pretty sure you can't just go to a funeral and start making jokes about the dead guy just in the hopes of lightening the mood

[@WarriorBoy]

This isn't just an issue with the MCU, but as referenced, major Blockbusters in general. I think another reason this approach to dialogue became popular is so that writers and creators can say they weren't being serious when they made it. The sarcasm and flippant lack of earnestness is a great shield against criticism, because on some level, the writers and creators are scared to sell this as what it is. A cheap version of "self-awareness". Its not shocking to me Godzilla Minus One was made that way. Japanese culture prizes earnest commitment to anything as a cultural value. I'm sure the attitude with them is that if they're doing a Godzilla movie, then they're *doing* a Godzilla movie. No quips about it.

[@Renoistic]

I do miss the earnestness we used to have in movies. But considering how the Avatar movies (incredibly earnest movies considering their budget) are relentlessly mocked I understand how big companies are afraid to go that direction.

[@whathell6t]

Nope! That’s a huge stretch. Godzilla in the same spectrum also has fair share of lack of earnestness in the Showa and Heisei Periods.

[@Peasham]

"Japan as a culture values earnestness" is hilarious to anyone who's actually studied any part of Japan or its culture. Minus One is a deeply divisive sociopolitical message, it is not the norm for Japanese media.

[@baggybones]

When I watch most animes (specifically Isekai or Shonen),I don't feel any type of earnestness, it's mostly just rehashes of previous stories but made considerably inferior. Earnest stories are AOT, Berserk, Vagabond or Vinland Saga,but those are a couple of exceptions,the vast majority isn't any different from the same Western stories you're criticizing. You just see it different because it's Japan (no offense)

[@lunaitor-uq9hz]

​@@whathell6tthe showa era ended 50 years ago and the last Heisei era movie came out literally 30 years ago, i don't think this is exactly a fair comparasion

[@malcolmroache3854]

Yup agreed. Its like every word of dialogue between characters is snarky. Yes people joke but nothing wrong with actually having conversations. Each character is different. Write to the strengths of that character. I just saw the What if episode of Nebula and every character sounds the same with dialogue. Nothing unique.

[@Coolcoolcooldude]

I thought Korg sounded different compared to Nebula.

[@umjackd]

Regarding Joss Whedon's body of work, I do feel like Age of Ultron is pretty fascinating to pick apart. I find it fascinating that Whedon had to fight the studio to keep the farmhouse scenes in the movie, and that fans are just as divided about that as Whedon and the studio were. To me, the best part of the movie was when it was being earnest and character driven, but clearly a segment of the audience and the studio feel differently. Without those scenes, it would have just been a fun romp of a movie, which is a lot more like recent MCU movies where the stakes never feel too high.

[@NadeemShekh-uy9zn]

I think whats missing is sincerity thats whats missing in these movies

[@Renoistic]

I think it's still there in some capacity, it's just that the dialogue and screenplays have gotten worse and messier with time, and it's become more and more obvious that the writers and directors are being lorded over by suits trying to increase potential value with no thought about the end result.

[@A-ds1mt]

@@Renoistic That and the paradox of wanting to keep expanding the Marvel Cinematic Universe while also not trusting it's audience to keep up and stay engaged. In the comics, if something is referenced that isn't explained in that issue, there will be a little box of text telling the reader what they might have missed, but they can still follow the story even if all that they know is that they don't know everything. The MCU dumbs down and drops storylines for the sake of easy consumption, sacrificing nuance and depth.

[@A-ds1mt]

TLDR rant: I don't understand why so many people liked the Loki series. I like the character but, the MCU apparently decided that his motivations from the first Thor movie and the involvement of Thanos in the first Avengers movie would be too convoluted, so they portrayed him as just a boring megalomaniac with one-liners and physical comedy instead of real motives or wit. It made his course correction feel forced and the show dull, IMO. Black Panther 2 was dumbed down as well. I realize that Chadwick Boseman's death resulted in some hasty rewriting but the political structure they established in the first movie was pretty much ignored in the second one until the very end of the movie. Queen Ramonda married into the Royal family and would not have had a claim to her son's throne; she was just a convenient place-holder until Shuri could become the next Black Panther. Would it really have been that difficult to have a different Wakandan tribe in charge for awhile? Maybe they do a poor job of handling the Atlantis problem to necessitate Shuri stepping up? No, but the MCU didn't trust it's audience to remember how the Wakandan monarchy worked so they substituted a simpler one. Zemo was a grieving military/family man in Civil War, but a snarky aristocrat in Falcon and the Winter Soldier because the show wanted a comedic relief sidekick and didn't care if it was consistent to the character. I've heard that the writers of Multiverse of Madness hadn't even watched WandaVision when they wrote Wanda's character and I can easily believe it. There's more examples but this is getting rambly.

[@rorylynch7775]

People always complain about Whedonisms, but imo the problem is more that other directors lioe Taika Waititi or Peyton Reed trying to copy Whedon when it doesn't suit

[@ThePrinceofHisOwnKingdom]

Nah. Taika had his own sense of humor for Ragnarok. He lost it in L&T. Also, I'd move away from directly blaming the creatives. Reed is undeniably a hack but copying Whedon is an input straight from the top. The top is also the one who hired him. The top is the problem.

[@stephenkellett7836]

Considering how Taika Waititi used humor selectively in JoJo Rabbit to mock Nazis without undercutting the horror and brutality of their effects on people, I'd say he knows how to use it and the issue is more people going over his head. Thor Ragnarok was a silly film and that was fine. Love & Thunder was a much more serious film but clearly had internal censorship limiting Gorr thematically and crap like the goats thrown in as a lazy attempt at humor.

[@dr.s8972]

They are all to blame. Whedon's style of writing is samevoice personified. And all his imitators are just doubling down on the unoriginality.

[@lokenontherange]

Ragnarok is as flawed. They're both films that toss out previous worlbuilding for comedy. They both denigrate their characters. Neither can take anything seriously enough.​@@ThePrinceofHisOwnKingdom

[@ThePrinceofHisOwnKingdom]

@@lokenontherange Ragnarok? As flawed as L&T? I mean, for starters, Ragnarok jokes are at least actually funny.

[@Eidlones]

Being sincere opens it up to being internet criticized (Videos about how things "don't make sense", like all those ones about how the castle in Beauty And The Beast doesn't make sense and Belle is suffering from stockholm syndrome), but if you undercut it with humor and lampshading, there's a layer of "defense" (against something that shouldn't need defending). Problem is there's incredibly few sincere big budget movies now, cause everyone's doing it.

[@florinivan6907]

But if nothing is sincere then there's no point in caring. Emotional investment requires characters that actually feel tense. No tension no point. Its just CGI with an actual actor in the foreground or his head.

[@Peasham]

On that topic and considering the video, it says a lot about Godzilla Minus One itself that reactionaries have to ignore its political message, the heart of its sincerity, to praise it at all. One of the actual wokest movies of the year, and some people just have to ignore it. Not that this video is reactionary, it just brought the movie up.

[@Igorgetyou95]

I miss 2012 Avengers where there was conflict and points being made. Even Bruce Banner in the prime of recasting and being stuck in film political limbo to where he didn’t have a follow up, he still managed to nail his dialogue. I also hated when they stopped using Lou Ferrigno for Hulk’s voice after Ultron cause you can really hear the major difference when Ragnorok came out.

[@ReinBelmont]

I remember in Dr Strange the villain had a motivation that was actually pretty interesting, time destroys everything and everyone we love, and for a second they almost let the villain let the conversation sink into relatable existencial dread but since it's a marvel movie they cut it with a joke, i think, I don't remember. Bro was about to explain why human instrumentality was a good idea but they didn't let him cook.

[@nightfurydraws]

actually the conversation ends when Stephen gets stabbed by a blade made of condensed air/mirror dimension matter. Kaecillius laughs because he sees his guy approaching, tricks/distracts stephen into looking for his sling ring, and then Kaecillius’ henchman throws the blade and stabs him.

[@BlazingOwnager]

Here is the thing, if you go back to old Marvel movies.. I mean I am talking pre Infinity War (not even pre endgame), the comedy was *really funny*. It's not that they are still quippy and doing what they always did.. it's that they are much, much worse at it. It's like a fast food place that's serving burgers, and one day it doesn't taste so good, so you think you're stick of burgers and need more menu options - but in reality, they started using poor quality ingredients and trying to hard it with deep fried lard.

[@definitelynotapervert5602]

I think a pretty perfect template from where Marvel should take their tone from is Captain America: The Winter Soldier. While the film had the occasional bit of levity, it was predominantly a very serious film that took it's plot and subject matter seriously. The same thing could be said for Black Panther.

[@tobiaslawrence8928]

You might disagree but Eternals, Werewolf by night, and moon knight a little bit

[@definitelynotapervert5602]

@@tobiaslawrence8928 Conceptually, those can work too.

[@tobiaslawrence8928]

@@definitelynotapervert5602 like tonel wise

[@definitelynotapervert5602]

@@tobiaslawrence8928 Pretty much what I meant too.

[@benwasserman8223]

I also think Whedon-like quips have an age range to them. With Buffy it made sense because these are high schoolers and teens often react to troubling situations with snark. Ditto Spider-Man. But with adults it probably feels less mature in the moment.

[@BlackShardStudio]

Another reason it worked so well for Tony S̶n̶a̶r̶k̶ Stark. It fit the rebellious, perennial adolescence of a rich playboy. Great dialogue tells us something about the character. Vision is verbose and philosophical. Thanos speaks with the fatalistic certainty of a demogogue. The patronizing, often obscure medieval vocabulary of (early) Loki's insults reflected his monarchist aspirations. Writers who turn everything into a quip do their characters a disservice.

[@sertorrhenclegane]

I don't know how much I agree with that. I don't find Dorothy Zbornak to be immature for making smart-ass remarks, and she was played by an actress in her 60s. I understand that Golden Girls was a sitcom while the MCU is superhero stuff, but I think it's applicable because sarcasm is a form of humor and, like any form of humor, it's all about the time and place.

[@202cardline]

Hmm I can kind of see this applying to Firefly; Malcom Reynolds has moments where he has no intention of acting like a tough guy and is fine with saying something cowardly, dorky and immature which breaks expectations. I think it works because those moments are what the audience would want to indulge in if they were there; running away because they don’t want to get shot, or being petty and poking someone with a sword because they were an asshat. “He’s very dangerous, If I’m not back, take the crew and the ship…and come rescue me” Of course Zoe quips, but mostly when she’s skeptical about something and is using sarcasm to express that. She’s the straight man to the sort-of-straight-man Captain. Jayne quips accidentally because he’s a lug. Wash is actually trying to be funny and lighten the mood. River can kill you with her mind. It’s pretty well balanced.

[@kendallrivers1119]

​@sertorrhenclegane But Dorothy 's witty remarks were brilliant and sharp unlike the more simple minded unclever nonsense from the MCU characters or other Blockbusters nowadays. Same with Frasier and Niles intelligent wit and sarcasm.

[@sertorrhenclegane]

@@kendallrivers1119 Well, obviously. My point was less about the quality of humor and more pointing out that one doesn't need to be a high schooler (or an adult in a state of arrested development) to indulge in sarcasm as the original poster seemed to imply.

[@MatanVil]

I feel like the type of humor as originated by Whedon's Buffy and Harmon's Community is that it kind of goes against the idea of "the nerd took over". When they keep lampshading the tropes it feels like the nerds who wrote this are ashamed by genre stuff, probably even more than before. And that kind of writing is based on making people thing that tropes and clichés are kind of a cardinal sin, which circle back to the point before. I guess that the backlash to that kind of writing is just younger viewers just excepting tropes as a role of like and not something to takedown, which might explain why anime is huge because they play everything stright.

[@StarryEyed0590]

That's such an interesting last point. Makes me think about the live action adaptation of One Piece and how easily it could have flopped, but it became a big hit because they respected their source material, leaned into what was great about it, and made an earnest adaptation fully committed to what it was doing, instead of trying to change it into something more generic or acting ashamed of their own material like so many other adaptations.

[@balsasjekloca9308]

Yes on the point about anime. Hell, even Jujutsu Kaisen and Chainsaw Man, two shows that lean heavily on humor and don't exactly play by the rules established by the genre, know when to drop the jokes and treat what's happening seriously.

[@leithaziz2716]

@@StarryEyed0590 We tend to call it the "Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood" method. Making a faithful adaptation of another medium.

[@spacebees86]

I'm glad you mentioned The Body because that's what I was thinking up until you did. Marvel needs it's The Body, it's Out Of Gas. It's Minus One. A grounding, humanizing story that real life people can connect with, even if theres a giant monster or zombies or who cares. The Walking Dead was good because of the people and their small stories, not the why or how zombies happened. Marvel needs The Sentry. not the new avengers version, but the original story. Hell, it would be call-back heaven too, revisit older productions before MCU was a thing. While also telling a sad story about a fucked up person.

[@Radioactive2321]

The Marvel movies that have aged well really leaned into their unique tones, which the 'Captain America' and GotG movies did fairly uncompromisingly. 'The First Avenger' was so shamelessly campy and yet had so much heart that it really evokes a classic feeling, while 'The Winter Soldier' turns heel and takes on a surprisingly serious tone. And the GotG trilogy needs no explanation. All of them have their quippy moments but ultimately take their characters and the stakes seriously and were clearly written with the goal of making a singular quality movie. Nearly every MCU movie of the last several years has felt like it comes from the exact same voice with little to no variation.

[@sterling7]

There's a time and a place. "Iron Man" knew that the death of Tony's fellow hostage to buy him time was not the time to make a joke; it also understood that sometimes "quippiness" is the character's way of dealing with stress, not merely the script or director's way of managing tone. When a character cracks a joke to conceal their fear or put off dealing with another strong emotion, it can work on a level beyond just puncturing seriousness. Done well, it can even *increase* the emotional stakes.

[@mandalorianhunter1]

I agree, less jokes, less trying to be funny, less vulgur talk and no more trying to make things light. Just straight to the point and honest conversations.

[@ShadowSonic2]

When they try more serious dialog, like stuff from the D+ shows, people just say it's boring. Like the dialog over grief from WandaVision, the response was "Ugh, this is too long".

[@Vherstinae]

@@ShadowSonic2 That's a twofold problem, in that the writers they have now can't handle serious dialogue (they can't handle comedy either, but the whizz-bang-wahoo will distract some people the same way that jingling keys does to an infant), and a lot of the people who watch the Disney+ dreck are the types who only want whizz-bang-wahoo and have no moral compass of their own, so because they're told that Wanda is the hero of the story they don't question why she can enslave a town and still be called a good person: the story (authority) tells them it is so, and thus it is so. They don't question why a mass-murdering terrorist can suddenly be forgiven and absolved of her crimes: the story says that she's sad and that's all the explanation we need, and so they believe that's all the explanation they need.

[@vp21ct]

My favorite MCU movies were always the Captain America movies. Both Winter Soldier and Civil War were incredibly high drama pieces that took their material dead serious, and both were stronger for it, I think. Part of this is that Earnestness and sincerity are already part of Steve's character to begin with, bit also that, while they did not shy away from comedic dialogue, they kept the focus on the drama that was unfolding, and I really like that.

[@masterseal0418]

Everything in this video makes sense. Many would complain Whedon's humor have plagued the MCU, but it wasn't that gratuitous compared to the more recent movies. I agree with Godzilla Minus One being a game-changer and proved Hollywood that more serious foreign productions based on their well known IPs would succeed. It's even one of the only "remakes" worth watching imo. There should be more MCU films that should balance comedy and drama, rather than make them uneven, resulting in mood whiplash; but we'll have to wait and see.

[@thibaud1832]

Love "telling their stories in air quotes". Well put.

[@davidhochstetler4068]

Watched minus 1 last week. Tried to watch Godzilla 2019 tonight. Couldn’t get through it. We need WRITING in media. Not $200 million in special effects

[@spencermalley10]

I wish the MCU was more earnest these days

[@JKDavitz]

What worked best about the way that Whedon used irony and quips in the MCU was that it was effective at relieving tension after it built up, kinda like giving the audience a chance to exhale after holding their breath But the way it got used later on doesn’t work in tandem with the tension, but undercuts it entirely

[@ellajorgi2478]

Oh, maybe that's why my favourite MCU movie is the second Captain America. Sure, it has some quippy replies but even those seem to be handled in a, idk, more adult rather than teenage way? While the overall tone - and themes - are pretty serious. Hell, just the implication that Cap, Nat and Sam are to be shot and buried in some dark alley in that one scene always gives me a shiver. All this is to say that yeah, there's so much room for different tone even within the MCU, and they even tapped into it already, so, like, there's no excuse to not do that again.

[@wdcain1]

This is another reason why Shang-Chi stuck with me. It had funny bits that weren't quipy. The bit where Katy made fun of Shang-Chi's attempt to change his name was so smart.

[@gracerigby361]

When the dceu first started with man of steel they kind of had a similar problem,the dark knight trilogy was a massive success so when Warner bros decided to start their own cinematic universe they looked at batman and went,ok people like dark moody characters so let's make all our films have that tone not realising that doesn't work with every character.

[@ScrubmanLowell]

You know what I loved about Barbie? Is that even though it was a comedy with 4th wall breaks and tons of memes, it also knew when to be sincere. Like when Barbie told that old woman she was beautiful. It was such a sweet moment without a hint of cynicism. Or when Gloria (America Ferrera) gave her monologue on how hard it is to be a woman, they didn’t end it with her quipping “Was that a little preachy?” or one of the characters quipping “Ok. You’re overselling it a little”. It ended with complete silence. It allowed the characters and the audience to just take it in. And also the ending when Barbie meets her creator and chooses to be human. And we see that montage of little girls having fun and living life. There was so much emotion and sincerity. And they waited until the very last minute to end the movie with a funny line from Barbie. Wrapping the entire movie with a nice bow. In my opinion, Barbie was a perfect example of a movie that balanced tone perfectly. It knew it’s audience well, and it respected its audience. And in return, the audience embraced it.

[@lasercraft32]

KZbin must REALLY want me to watch this, because it keeps showing up in my recommended over and over and OVER. Figured, "sure why not," so here I am.

[@giga_chad9]

Marvel with that “from the screen to the ring to the pen I’m the king where’s my crown” ahh dialogue

[@wipis59]

Wheedon did a great job with the first avengers movie because he let each character have a moment to show their personality and unique way of solving problems. And they were constantly a step behind the villain. By Thor Love and Thunder they are no longer solving problems or showing any depth of character. It often felt like a parody of a super hero movie.

[@omegaman2846]

The key is to keep in mind what the goals and personalities of your characters are. You can be as quipped or serious as you want if you keep those in mind

[@byDerick]

10 years later I still get chills from this

[@HoustonSoto]

I remember ten minutes into Age of Ultron I was confused as to why everyone of them had apparently attended comedy improv with Tony as their instructor and muse in between films.

[@discman15]

Whedon's dialogue gives me the exact same tension headache as a shrieking child in a waiting room

[@eoinbradley6842]

The reason quippy duologue works for Tony Stark or Peter Quill is they are both over compensating for the hurt in themselves, that they are all too aware of. Sure other characters can use it to break tension or match the tone of the film that fits the moment. Give me a story with a spoon full of sugar. Not a synopsis with a dump truck of industrialised sweetener.

[@MiloW456]

If they went more serious and gritty right after trying to do Gorr the God butcher, it would only make the gut punch worse.

[@canceltheapocalypse8190]

At some point, earnest expressions of feelings and drama became “cheesy” or “corny” such that writers felt like they needed to undercut it with a self aware quip robbing the moment of its emotional impact. It probably speaks to the cynicism of the times. Give me extra cheese anytime-I want to feel something when I’m watching films!

[@BatDad1984]

The thing about Wheaton's writing was it was very quipy, but when it was time for the serious dramatic moments the tone shifted appropriately. Love and Thunder lacked that. And I feel like people forget that Chris Hemsworth does serious drama pretty well. Alot of the comedic dialog they give him feels so uneven. Sometimes it works, but alot of time its inappropriate.

[@Crow_Rising]

I think the best way to summarize the MCU lately is "Tone deaf". The issue isn't their style of humor, but their overuse of it to the point of self detriment. They can't bring themselves to allow a more serious, perhaps even dark and/or somber scene to sell itself. They have an unhealthy obsession with taking these moments and cutting through the tension with a lame pun or something. When even the characters in the film are unable to take anything seriously, how is the audience ever going to be expected to? When scenes aren't allowed to stay serious because everyone in them feels the need to act like a clown, you can't complain when people start calling you out for the circus you're running.

[@Sharkpowder]

I'm happy to see your comic made, well done man, I was like what's this advert lol rare to see a critic advertise their own art so awesome 👍

[@sjbrooksy45]

Watched Ironman on tv the other day. It was SO good compared to new MCU movies. Sure there is humor in it, but the vibe is completely different. And, sure it is easy to forget that Marvel had some misses early on as well. IDK, I think they just need to tell some good character driven stories that happen to have super heroes in them. That's what made Marvel comics popular. Like Into The Spiderverse, Miles feels like a real kid.

[@NotHeresrsly]

When Infinity War came out, I was like, "huh - how are they going to deal with multiple characters talking exactly the same?" And I thought they handled it kinda well - the Iron Man and Dr Strange flying into space scene - talking At each other, like the two arrogant jerkstores that they were But yeah, still needs to not be the default

[@cosmokramer7396]

😆 Jerkstore? Was that a Seinfeld reference?

[@homielander5924]

@@cosmokramer7396they called and they running out of you

[@cosmokramer7396]

@@homielander5924 lol.

[@cade1866]

what you alluded to in the beginning of the video is exactly how I feel. I think this style of dialogue works for specific characters. RDJ, Pratt, and Rudd can make that work, not every character needs to be written that way because it works for those characters and that’s where I think they went wrong and overindulged

[@BrianRocksNow]

What Marvel really needs is a break. Take 2-3 years off. Then they can return with experienced and proven scriptwriters that actually like the source material. That way they can resist forcing every movie to build towards another Endgame. I think 1 Marvel film a year is enough. There can be unrelated one-off grounded films like what was done with Logan that could fit between a larger narrative. That'd potentially build similar tension to what Avengers did while not rushing the fanfare. 2-3 movies and +3 TV shows a year that all narratively connect (where missing one risks hurting the experience of another) is *insane.*

[@AarturoSc]

Unfortunately they can’t afford it. It’s not a creative drive what gets these movies out, but rather a business one. They can’t take a few years because the next best thing will make them completely irrelevant and the people will have moved on. That’s why the usual business model of the film industry is to milk things until they are completely dry.

[@tobiaslawrence8928]

If I was marvel I'd be focused on releasing animated shows and movies and specials. And then start making movies again.

[@shealupkes]

I can't help but notice they made the quip king learn quipping from the character who started quipping because of him, in fact I'd argue most of mcu tony's energy is ripped right from comics spider-man, so when they got someone to try and play spider-man they had to give him a different direction making him distinctly not spider-man, so we had an iron man in name only and we have a spider-man in name only, and a bunch of characters talking like iron man who became popular by talking like spider-man, so simultaneously everyone in the mcu is spider-man and the mcu is lacking a spider-man

[@dannyjarratt5414]

While watching What If, this video felt very, very, VERY apt! Every character had quippy one-liners regardless of the characterisation. Anything for a joke, but also it felt like it removed some of the emotional beats of the story. The Disney-ification and Spidermand-ification of Marvel feels very much in full swing. I did not expect Hela to have so many one-liners and be so dramatically different. She felt more like Spiderman that Hela!

[@Godfatherjrt]

Waititi and Gunn are the main culprits in taking the "Joss Whedon" humor and needing to beat you over the head with it consistently.

[@devincrusade3265]

Please just one Rick & Morty video especially with that season finale

[@mitch_universe4058]

I low key regret not buying binary sea issue #1, I hope it goes back on sale, hopefully when the next issue drops! I even tried getting one but I didn’t see the option to add to cart or anything, I’ll must have been too late

[@notthegreatestdetective]

i do think the older MCU films were more action films with hints of drama and comedy, whereas the more recent entries are treated as comedies with hints of action and drama, and the comedy often seems to undercut those moments rather than elevate them as they seemed to do in the past

[@mauriciocalasich]

agreed but dialogue is 1 of 1000 things that need to change.

[@letsgobrandon1906]

I think that's the most important thing tho.

[@_fendiman97]

They really don’t have to make every character funny cause not every character in the comics is joking around like that it’s mostly Spider-Man and Deadpool who tend to be that funny usually.

[@Renoistic]

That depends on the writers. Have you ever read a Weadon comic?

[@Hilversumborn]

Witty dialogue is like a food ingredient , if you keep putting in all your dishes, people will become sick of it.

[@Persephone_ch]

It kind of reminds me of why “The Citadel: Shore Leave” DLC is such a beloved expansion in Mass Effect 3. It’s the only thing like it. It has tons of quips, jokes, and fan service, but it’s the only thing in the game like that. Usually it’s contained in most stories. Even in ME3 Garrus is really the only character who could do something like this. This gives brevity, and makes the story still seem serious. Like if Shepard was saying this clown shit all the time over the course of the game (while earth was literally burning to the ground in the background) it would seem annoying, but if you contain it to small moments. It’s still entertaining but doesn’t derail the story.

[@aliminator1310]

Merry Christmas, Captain Midnight!!

[@muichirotokito7714]

Seriously tho, this shit feels like I’m watching a Disney Channel in 2006. 😂😂😂

[@thekid3947]

quick spoiler free marvel related review of Godzilla minus one Shikishima: "You took everything from me" Godzilla: "I don't even know who you area."

[@EJD339]

I don’t care for some directors but their films never bother me and I just leave it at that. Taika Waititi is the only director who genuinely pisses me off when I watched his last two films. I just don’t understand why he has to insert himself in every film.

[@DavidSilva-mn4dz]

There is a place to it... When you have a dynamic like Ben Grimm and Johnny Storm, Luke Cage and Iron Fist, The OG Xmen team. Just balance it out.

[@bobodo45]

This type of dialogue is why I think adding Deadpool is pretty redundant. I'm not asking the movies to get rid of the jokes entirely, just tone down the average to like Captain America 1 levels

[@jeremyallen5974]

The same problem plagued Ghostbusters 2016 Everyone was running their mouths trying to be 'funny' while completely forgetting that a story works better when people actually act like they GIVE A SHIT about what's going on rather than acting like everything is a joke

[@Martinmd12-zt7vu]

The reason marvel is not working is really because they are poorly written. It’s not that complicated. If all the marvel movies were 10/10s then I don’t think people would be complaining that there were too many of them. Godzilla Minus One worked because the characters were genuinely well written.

[@ShadowSonic2]

No it wasn't, it was a standard monster flick

[@Martinmd12-zt7vu]

@@ShadowSonic2 you didn’t think the characters were well written?

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@Martinmd12-zt7vu Not especially

[@Martinmd12-zt7vu]

@@ShadowSonic2 Agree to disagree then, though you have to admit that something about it is resonating with a lot of people that other movies haven’t been able to do recently.

[@thefilmwatcher1302]

We need Marvel movies that are written like movies instead of comedy skits/parodies. We haven’t had a single Marvel movie rated below PG-13 since the MCU began, yet the movies have increasingly felt like they’re made for children.

[@mediakira6621]

Dialogue needs to be less causal and less…Modern day dialect. Thor and Loki saying stuff like “guy” , “yeah”, “gonna”, “wanna”…never felt right to me.

[@futurestoryteller]

MCU Fans: "Not every character needs to be Tony Stark" Also MCU Fans: "EW why is Captain Marvel so stoic? It's BORING!"

[@evanrutledge-sz4yo]

Here’s what they need to change: 1. Not every single character has to be “funny.” It’s fine if they have characters that are quippy, like Spiderman, starlord, and iron man. The issue comes when A. Every character is sarcastic, not taking anything seriously with no one else to balance it out. And B. Having every character have the exact same sense of humor. If you have numerous comedic characters, they should have multiple different styles of humor, unintentional, sarcasm, dark and insensitive, quippy etc. 2. The writing needs to be more character focus instead of plot focused. What this means is that the characters should drive the plot, not the over way around. The plot should set up the character moments and should be fueled on the characters actions, both positive and negative. As a writer I believe that characters should be first created, and then tested with the plot, of course this doesn’t mean it’s the only way to do it, but I think it’s a good way to think about it.

[@martinadams8877]

hi cap, been thinking about tone a lot recently and agree with what you say. the humour can be done but it has to be good and at the right moment otherwise it pops the bubble of tension that was building and deflates everything, making everything silly. Black adam is a good example of this. there is 10 mins or so of real tension building towards the end and i'm finally getting into the film and then the chappy turns up in his van with his silly horn blowing and the kid makes a triangle above his head and the townsfolk turn up to bash the skeletons and the tension is lost as everything has been ruined (again). However as an opposite example look at something like bullet train. it has a very definite tone that it sticks to, similar to lock stock and two smoking barrels, snatch, pulp fiction, kill bill a little bit or even reminiscent of the first ant man movie. yes its silly all the way through but the dialogue is clever, thought provoking, insightful into characters, and actually funny and this is counterpointed by extreme violence to pull off a clever plot with a message. or think of the tone of cap, winter soldier; darker, spy film that takes itself seriously but puts a few wisecracks in the right place so as not to destroy that tone. recently dc and marvel have become tone deaf. every film is all over the place; is this a comedy, a horror, am i supposed to take this seriously, am i supposed to care. its as if the film makers have become afraid to take the content and characters and audience seriously and deliver a film with a thought through vision. enjoy.

[@futurestoryteller]

"Every movie is so serious, no one knows how to have fun anymore." "Ugh every movie is a joke now, it's like nothing is serious and everything is ironic" Literally every ten years.

[@RevOptimism]

I think the point is not whether something is serious or fun, but if it’s sincere or not. Something can be both serious and fun, but still be sincere in how it handles its subject matter. The point of this video is that the MCU’s treatment of its heroes and stories have been pretty insincere with meta humor that most of the time doesn’t land.

[@errwhattheflip]

Everyone's already mentioned it, but one of the reasons it worked so well originally was because there was still a unique voice for each individual character and there was a reason for it to be that way. Tony especially made the most sense because it's made pretty clear that his humor is more of a way to block out his conflict and pain and suffering, joking around while also going through things like ptsd, extreme guilt, near life-ending situations, and more

[@Martinmd12-zt7vu]

The fact that a Godzilla movie is beating Disney says a lot

[@ShadowSonic2]

Not really, Godzilla is a major movie Icon.

[@Martinmd12-zt7vu]

@@ShadowSonic2 That’s true

[@whathell6t]

⁠​⁠@@Martinmd12-zt7vu Plus! Anime weebs don’t like the Godzilla franchise and Tokusatsu medium in general since it’s too American and too political. It’s a big bias. They really ignore the fact that Tokusatsu is one of the huge reason for development of anime.

[@wannabehistorian371]

Ayyy G-1 shout out! I really do think that G-1 is an example to be followed; where’s the variety? G-1 gave that.

[@billlange9408]

Wheadon-ism as I've heard it referred to numerous times needs to go. It worked fine for his shows and even the first Avengers film (which is still one of my favorite MCU films). I think it fit mostly well in something like Hawkeye, but had almost no place in Black Widow. Thank you for bringing up Minus One. As a Godzilla fan for almost 40 years, it's the best G film ever made. Even more so than the original. It's the only G film where I've cared about the humans as a whole. There have been individual characters that have stood out over the 70 years of G films, but never the whole cast. I'd watch a film of just the human characters rebuilding Tokyo and their lives after WW2 and not even think about it twice. I'm pretty sure I know what you're one gripe was, and I would likely agree. Depending on if I'm right. lol. Phase 4 has been a huge experiment for Marvel. Its had some hits, but its had more misses. Now that we're in Phase 5, I think they need to slow things down a bit and focus on building up to the next big thing. With Jonathan Majors being out, they could still do Kang, but it might be a bit to shoehorn in. I think they start with someone like Doom and build from there. I hope they're taking all the criticism they hear to heart. The first three phases were so good overall and Infinity War/Endgame was peak MCU. I don't know that it'll ever be there again, but I'd like to see it try.

[@fedupN]

Hit the key points and I especially enjoy the mention of playing it safe. I know that is a key element for me. Initially, the marvel movies felt interesting and fresh. My favorites were Ant Man and Guardians because their styles felt different than the others. Then some executive saw Guardians of the Galaxy be gangbusters and said "copy that so we can get all the money!" Now, everything feels homogenized into "product." Marvel only engages its themes in the most milquetoast manner, barely even doing surface level so as not to upset any status quos. For all the flash, the movies are largely empty. Like a bag of chips with a whole bunch of air and not much else. The quippiness doesn't contrast anything, it simply fails to fill the nothing with more nothing.

[@BlamoStramo]

you need to watch Shin Godzilla, and GMK, and the original Godzilla for that matter if you want more of what you liked about Minus One

[@captainmidnight]

I love GMK, Shin is pretty solid too.

[@BenVaserlan]

If they want to go with properly witty dialogue, they should make Chuck Lorre and his writing group a billion dollar offer they can't refuse.

[@StewartFletcher]

What works with comic relief is that they *relieve* the tension. Someone has to actually BUILD the tension. If every character is ironic and sardonic and quippy and goofy then there's nothing to relieve. Everything is tensionless, bland, and safe

[@chrisr4023]

Even in iron man 1, the quippy dialogues were mostly Tony. It fits his persona. The movie was taking itself quite seriously in many scenes. If they can confine their current trend in dialogue to GOTG, Spidey, Deadpool and some characters only, they might have some good movies again.

[@RayMcElroy50]

Disney's rule: "You reference Star Wars or you're FIRED"

[@StuartLugsden]

What?