Max Fisher on How Silicon Valley Has Rewired Our Brains | Offline Podcast

Max Fisher’s new book “The Chaos Machine” was written with Offline’s audience in mind. He sits down with Jon to talk about what his interviews with researchers, psychologists, whistleblowers, and Silicon Valley executives taught him about social media’s effects on our brains, our culture, and our politics. Tracing the creation of the Facebook Newsfeed to the election of Donald Trump, he argues that the fundamental design of social media platforms themselves have literally rewired our brains.
00:00 - Intro
01:04 - Interview start
06:20 - Why can't Facebook executives identify the issues?
21:05 - Ad Break
25:03 - Social media & identity
43:38 - Ad Break 2
48:03 - What can we do to regulate tech companies?
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Crooked believes that we need a better conversation about politics, culture, and the world around us-one that doesn’t just focus on what’s broken, but what we can do to fix it. At a time when it’s increasingly easy to feel cynical or hopeless, former Obama staffers Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, and Tommy Vietor have created a place where people can have sane conversations that inform, entertain, and inspire action. In 2017 they started Crooked with Pod Save America-a no-bullshit conversation about politics. Since then, we continue to add shows, voices, and opportunities for activism, because it’s up to all of us to do our part to build a better world. That’s it. End of mission.
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[@Conductoresque]

This book and these sources are going right into my thesis. Thanks for the hard work your team does to get these Offline interviews out. They help more than you know. Excellent shows these past two weeks.

[@carmenuljanicka6447]

Can I ask about your thesis/research topic? I am currently studying and about to write my masters, would love to hear about your work!

[@Conductoresque]

@@carmenuljanicka6447 Sure! I’m a psychology student, so probably some RWA/SDO research, maybe with some theory of mind stuff as well. I’m interested in the cognitive systems affected by right-wing extremism.

[@catherinesmith9820]

@@Conductoresque I hope you also incorporate something about deprogramming because we're going to need that if we're going to get past this.

[@mossydog2385]

This is my takeaway: one must remember that when you're on social media with even just one friend, unknown to you, you are also there with a social psychologist, a neurologist, a marketing expert, a human relations expert, and an expert salesman, and their only purpose is to keep you there. They also have access to everything you've ever even looked at online.AND in some cases, every foreign intelligence service and state sponsored malign actor MAY also be online with you, and their purpose for being there is much different. Swap "foreign intel" to "big corporate interests" and you have a pretty clear idea of what's going on unseen but affecting you personally. I know this sounds hyperbolic, but just going by what we've come to know since 2015, it would appear to be true. As for me, I no longer have any social media accounts except KZbin, i don't comment on many channels, and I tend to read few comments, and let's face it, KZbin's algorithm is pretty ham handed and it's "directions" are easier to spot because of the relative length of KZbin interactions. I hope this helps.

[@bethanythatsme]

Absolutely

[@Weemadaggie]

All this. I would like to add, that you can still have meaningful family and friend interactions online - just do it in places you have control over. I run a D&D Discord that also has become my main friend 'clan' if you will. We feel safe there, our numbers are so few that everyone knows each other(!) and because of that, social corrections still have impact (I.E. it matters if someone says 'hey, that hurt what you just said'). I don't think the human ape does well in groups so large where that impact dissipates. TLDR: Social media bad, online relationsships not bad.

[@ElaineMLove]

I agree with all that everyone in this sub-thread. I have a fb account, but I was decades late for it . I think I really started to use about 2016 maybe 🤔 fall of 15 the reasons I tell you this one I was in early 30's when came on scene and I didn't have access to the internet, didn't know that much about the internet at all and didn't really care about it. I and my friends were doing in person, phone, beepers, or writing hand written letters. So when it came time to set up fb account (my family) really wanted it for me. I still wasn't a fb person. Because I didn't understand itI was afraid of it,because I didn't want everyone to see me, I didn't want everyone to know what I was thinking, I thought it was me and I was insecure, anxieties crept in.I probably was but I didn't have of things I was feeling was true. Even now I have been keeping track of how much fb time a wk not much 15 mins. But utube am hrs. a day, listening to podcasts and I do comment. Gonna work on that. I'm also going see a a small group/friends ( no one writes including me anymore ) Great segment thanks!!😃

[@MasterOfDarkness42069]

You know what they say, "when the product is 'free', you are the product."

[@mossydog2385]

@@MasterOfDarkness42069 👍

[@davidallyn1818]

READ. THIS. BOOK!! I'm a data dude at UCLA and on the inside of machine learning for a while, and I can confirm Max Fisher's book is 100% accurate in his conclusions. Social media are addictive advertising machines - full stop, end of line. The way we interact with them should be treated the same way that casinos are regulated. What I didn't know was the extent those companies have studied - and ignored - the behavior they are creating in society. Thanks Max for doing this research and writing this book, and thank you Jon for introducing Max to me.

[@unvexis]

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." -- "I, Candidate for Governor" by Upton Sinclair

[@pattyayers]

Yes, exactly. That’s the “cognitive wall” that this guy talked about. I love that quote!

[@ElaineMLove]

@@pattyayers Ditto

[@francesbender9412]

@@pattyayers eeeeeed rd d

[@carolynallengreen]

Media has affected us deeply for a long time…I remember when New York advertising agencies used media advertising and placements to convince people that “We all need one of everything for everybody.”…consumerism. Social media is just an extension of this retiring process…

[@deborahmaupin5092]

Absolutely agree 💯 percent.....

[@carinamoses2704]

I think it was the great director and improvisational innovator Keith Johnstone who wrote or said "advertising is an insult to the human spirit" and that he wanted to take out a billboard saying that. What a wit. Maybe such a billboard wouldn't be a bad idea!

[@patrickmchugh4616]

Precisely. Capitalism and the consumer market is based on fostering and proliferating human desire. It just so happens that now human desire can be channeled into a small computer that everyone has access to 24/7. As you say, they are extensions of the same principle - media as a function of capital accumulation has always been motivated by ever-increasing viewership, longer engagement, more consumption. The rise of online platforms has simply exacerbated and accelerated this phenomenon.

[@EditorEastEndNews]

Many, dare I say, most "Offline" epis are good, but this one was great. I love when I learn so much as I did today. Jon & Max wove threads from online to so many important issues - politics, Charlottesville, etc. Thanks.

[@mjinba07]

Talking with my friends about the content of their extreme opinions (generated by social media), trying to interject some deeper consideration or moderating ideas, meets with recalcitrance, defensiveness, and either shutting down the conversation or risking misunderstanding and hard feelings. In other words, it's ineffective and it threatens the friendship. Yet talking about the negative impact of social media yields a LOT of agreement. It does feel like talking to an addict, replete with non-sequiturs and jargon. Addiction to the extreme ideas proffered by social media without considering the origins of those ideas. Like an alcoholic agreeing that too much alcohol is toxic, but getting their hackles up the minute they sense you might say something about their drinking.

[@LoneWulf278]

Well said! It’s exactly like that.

[@eh3477]

Absolutely ditto in my experience, except it's relatives extensively addicted to multiple media platforms. Any thoughtful in-person discussion is shot down and mocked. Then, a "poor-me" on how SM is taking up too much time and negatively impacting life. Ho hum.

[@bethanythatsme]

I've permanently deleted my social media accounts, other than KZbin. For my autistic brain, it has been one of the best decisions I've made. Each person's experience is so different, but for me, it was making me so resentful and impossible not to compare myself to others.

[@carmenuljanicka6447]

I did too. I keep up with the world via KZbin and communicate via messenger but otherwise I'm out 🙏

[@fredgolloway5506]

Smart choice!

[@ebbymarz3014]

Same and can vouch that I feel so much better without it 🙂

[@higgsscrapbook3019]

Interesting as always. I remember a biologist, who had talked to people from the Creation Institute, saying, after a failed attempt to lay out for them the evidence for evolution, that it’s very hard to make someone understand something when their salary depends on them not understanding it.

[@pattyayers]

Quote from Upton Sinclair

[@JerseyJersey100]

Whether it be mental health experts, neurologists, algo designers, scientists that study society, this is like the 20th very intelligent person to articulately describe the same problems created by social media

[@NikoMalekMusic]

I live in the Bay Area and the attitude of these tech workers when confronted with these problems is pretty much to shrug and say, “I’m just getting paid”. The only thing required for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing. That’s what I see at Google, Apple, and Facebook.

[@vafuthnicht7293]

Thank you @PodSaveAmerica for having these discussions, asking the hard questions and always bringing things back to "what can we do for ourselves, our communities, and our society at large, to overcome?" I appreciate you all so much!

[@catladygoddess]

Really enjoyed this. Thank you. Things really turned around for me when I saw how you could trace a straight line from Facebook to the genocide of Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar. And the analogy of the drug is something I have used with my clients as well. I am now better at catching myself reach for my phone in a state of mindlessness.

[@elizabethbetts3834]

I love the rapport of you and the guest in the room together! I know it’s not always possible in this day and age but it really does add something to the Offline podcast for you to speak to the guest about this issues, off-line.

[@patrickschmid3294]

As a computing dinosaur (I've written programs on paper tape) you cannot separate the design from the algorithms. The design was created to build the environment within which the algorithms run. They are symbiotic. Here is the clue you can use to tell when the design is trying to manipulate people. We used to call the design of the human interface as human factoring. Those of us that are experts at human factoring design pride ourselves in creating software that feels like a natural extension of your thinking. When the human interface has aspects that grate against the idea of being a natural extension you are seeing the interface trying to manipulate your thinking. Case in point, why doesn't Facebook give a thumbs down or bullshit emoji to "Like" with? Why do you keep complaining Facebook doesn't show your friend's posts, that it seems to push other content to you? Why does Facebook keep pushing people to use Public Groups where moderators can't moderate group speech? The answer to each question is Facebook purposely designed their human interface to be the natural extensions of their algorithms and not your thought process.

[@ElaineMLove]

OK so what does that really mean in layman's terms please. I need it broken down in simple, to the point. Ambiguity is not my friend when trying to understand. Because I tend to computer illiterate, go asking Why can't they just fix the thing so that it doesn't..... appreciate any and all knowledge of that "natural", "interfacing normally", so 😊

[@patrickschmid3294]

@@ElaineMLove Let me give it a try - Think of a program as being a person that is given a script to follow. They cannot deviate from the script. If a situation comes up the script does not know how to handle the program will crash. When you design a program you start by identifying all of the tasks the program must accomplish. A design for each task that includes how to capture the required information from the user, the calculations the program will execute with that information and what will be the results the program provides as output. As a programmer of 35 years I can look at any program, and given a few days of study I can start explaining what is going on. In the case of Facebook lets look at the environment. You do not pay anything for using Facebook. That is because you are the product that Facebook is manufacturing. Facebook is selling you to their advertisers and the Facebook interface is designed to seduce you into engaging with those advertisers. .Everything is geared around trying to seduce you into engaging with the content other people are producing. The problem is the algorithms, which is nothing more than a script stating the logical steps performed by a program, are designed to do their best to create a psychological dependency on that engagement with others. It does this by leveraging people's confirmation bias. Behind the scenes Facebook is building a profile of who you are based on how you engage with the content. They know what you like, what you don't like, and they know how to use their algorithms to serve up content that has the greatest probability of getting your engagement by appealing to your biases that they have been tracking. This is why Facebook does not let you have a BS emoji as part of the set of "Like" emojis. These algorithms work best when you can either like or respond with a strong emotion. It encourages the respondents to pull a response out of the bag of confirmation biases which in turn elicits knee jerk confirmation bias responses from others. The basic problem is the algorithms used by social media to drive engagement promote divisive responses that have turned these platforms into a target rich environment for internet trolls. I would offer two additional things to go look at. here is a link to a video I captured of Neil DeGrasse Tyson doing the Hot Wings challenge. He explains the basic problem of confirmation bias and the internet: facebook.com/pat.schmid.39/videos/1534350056714672/. And next find a way to watch the Netflix Documentary "The Social Dilemma" which does an excellent job of explaining the algorithms used by these social platforms in a way non-computer geeks can follow.

[@davidallyn1818]

@@ElaineMLove I like to think of social media like casino slot machines - the advertisers pay the money, the social media company gets the payout, the app is the actual slot machine screen in front of you, and your only job is to sit in that chair and push the button. Facebook, KZbin, Twitter, etc... are "advertising placement" companies - this is how they make their money. No matter what they say in public, what they really want is for your eyes to see advertising (they call it an "impression"). The more "impressions" they've made on you, the more money Facebook makes from your "session". With that goal in mind, they put advertising in and around the posts and then show you a feed of things to look at. Now, if you only looked at your friends' and family's posts, you'd be on Facebook for a maybe a few minutes a day. But, that isn't enough time - they need more of your attention to make more money. So they curate other posts for you to see that they believe will keep you in the app... pushing the button. The more you push the button, the more they understand what triggers you to push the button. They literally will put a post in front of you as a test - just to see your reaction. No matter how you react, they are able to better predict what you'll do next time. As you spend time on the app, the more patterns they are able to observe within the content, and the better they are able to predict what will keep you sitting in that chair pushing the button. Well, it turns out that "love" and "hate" are strong motivators for getting you to stop and look at a post, because they give you a small dopamine hit. So, in order keep keep you there longer, they will continually try to "one-up" the last post you saw. It becomes a vicious loop that makes every post more outlandish than the previous one. And, sadly, after a while of looking a more and more outrageous things - and getting all of those reinforcing dopamine hits.... we become addicted. Max Fisher's book goes into much more detail and explains it much better than I can - it's worth reading.

[@catherinesmith9820]

@@patrickschmid3294 I wish I could give more than one like and I second your two recommendation in your last paragraph.

[@Nihilist_Porcupine]

Incredible interview. This guy really has a way with words.

[@andreasheld2362]

Great episode filled with a lot of information I wasn't that aware of yet. Thank you, Jon.

[@TheSuzberry]

Sometimes I feel like I’m living in the stone age: no FB or twitter, no TV. Maybe I’m OK after all.

[@susanrobertson984]

But one cannot live without KZbin especially if we don’t have the other things. I use FB very little and Twitter only recently and I don’t enjoy either one. No longer have TV so I only get what the YT algorithm gods tell me in my feed.

[@suburbanhousewife40]

Amazing show. The study you explained about the positive effects of a 4-month Facebook detox needs to me shared more.

[@MyTopher21]

I just want to commend you, and thank you for these honest and thoughtful discussions. When you are willing to turn around and look at yourself and think about outloud how you have used your social media platforms to push out thoughts. It shows you genuinely care for others and honestly just want to see people living better. This conversation isnt possible on the right.

[@llcoolwill86]

Great episode. Thank you. Here's what I'm doing: I'm going to start making meaningful content specifically targeted to my kids and my irl connections. If other people flood the internet with wholesome, meaningful content, then the feeds of my friends and family will be cleaner because I'm making it for them and making it meaningful to them. so they'll see their self in my content. And I hope it catches on because I don't want to give my kids a world that doesn't make sense. I want to give them a world they can make sense of.

[@bre5112]

Dude just log off.

[@pattyayers]

It does kind of remind me of my alcoholic family member planning to only drink on certain days of the week

[@llcoolwill86]

@@pattyayers Idk, I watch the way my kids engage online and I just don't see how becoming a luddite will solve the problem.

[@llcoolwill86]

​@@bre5112 I'm not going to abandon my kids. They are online natives. I want to be a part of their lives. Jon Favreau said it himself when he said we are the design flaw. So instead of seeking out and pumping out apocalyptic content, I'm going to be the guy throwing the starfish back into the ocean. I know it's delusional to think it'll catch on... but I believe it will make a difference for my 4 sons. That's really all I can do.

[@kristinsewell1441]

I crossed through the space where Karens and Cancel Culture intersect. I had people from my classes insist on filling out an evaluation form despite having given me their feedback face to face. I couldn't understand why they couldn't just tell me what they thought I got wrong and leave it at that. They were frustrated because they couldn't get public approval from strangers. (They probably did on their private socials and they definitely went to their bosses with their complaints. Ask me how I know...) Essentially, they couldn't get a reaction from me that felt satisfying because I actually listened, apologized, and repaired... which is what I teach in my classes, ironically. Karens and Cancel Culture basically act on the same social urge. It seriously fucked me up. I had intrusive thoughts for weeks. I cannot imagine what it feels like for honest people to have a Twitter mob come after them.

[@eh3477]

Had a similar experience, and IMHO it was all about an incessant need for unlimited "likes", sharing drama and outrage with their imaginary crowd (though no outrage was necessary because the situation could have been fixed easily with an honest discussion).... and so on. It was just group/hive mind in the worst sense. Thanks for a thought provoking commentary on your experience.

[@latriciacagle4873]

I only have FB to keep up with six family/friends who live out of state. I set up my account to restrict posts to those six people. I wish I could eliminate the ads. I delete them. Other than FB, I follow a few KZbin channels. While I do follow a few political content channels, most of the channels I follow are gardening, sustainable lifestyles, alternative health, renewable energy technology, audiobooks and DIY home construction projects. I stay informed but I just can’t be bombarded everyday with the insanity of today’s politics. I try to devote my mental and intelligential energy on things that are more positive and constructive in nature. Edit: spelling

[@gcuneo81]

This is PEAK Offline- I could listen to these guys talk all day long

[@NikkLiberos]

I'm just going to say that I bought the ebook yesterday and got to page 46 in one sitting. I have been wondering about these questions since the 2016 election, not before. I read about Brexit and Cambridge Analytica, and heard about Gamergate (without knowing about the particulars) but I did not know about Myanmar but I have been seeing the societal changes supercharged by social media. The fact that hate is so easily and rapidly amplified is mind-boggling. And I am not going to forget about the positives of social media, but the negatives are terrifying, to say the least. As an English major and sociolinguistics geek, I needed this book (and its reference list).

[@MERollered]

great episode. The best day of my life in the last 2 years has been so far (after my daughter's graduation from high school), shutting down Facebook and insta. I shut down all social media for a time but KZbin. Now I bounce in and out of Twitter and Reddit, when I see the anger and the time spent on the apps or websites increase that is when I disconnect and take a breather from them again. But the only time I have any desire to restart Facebook is when I need business information and FB is blocking my ability to see it and that is LITERALLY the business's only web presence

[@pattyayers]

Haha, @Megan, same here with Facebook - business and/or Groups with which I really want to communicate. But no “Friends”! I feel like I have to go through a terrible part of town and am afraid I’ll get the grossness on me

[@MERollered]

@@pattyayers I know since Covid a lot of our local business have adjusted hours. We did the late night shopping spree to avoid the crowds (we are both have autoimmune issues) but wanted to pick up food because we were too tired to cook and I went to go see what was near us after we got home and unpacked and went to check a local Mexican restaurant and had that issue. Had to use my husbands Facebook account to see. But I have mental health issues without Facebook so add in those platforms and my bipolar ass is on it for hours at a time multiple times. So once I disconnected and got past the nervous grabbing of the phone I was so much happier and relaxed so I won’t go back lol

[@liaboyd8464]

Loved this discussion. Okay, I'm a social scientist, so, of course, studies and research tickle my brain in the right way. Max makes the research and conclusions really accessible, and the opposite of ivory tower condescension. Jon sharing his evolution adds to the feeling. Will be buying Max's book immediately.

[@samanthachurch]

As a fellow elder millennial, I feel like you're singing my life with your words. The internet was not always like this!

[@Zastrutzki]

Wow. I got out just in time it seems. Hate to say it, but these things should be regulated.

[@tammystockley-loughlin7680]

Most things need regulating...humans have not proven trustworthy...too much greed for stuff and power. I want those checks and balances until we humans have more of our shit together. Positive vibes from New Hampshire, remember to be kind to each other and yourself during these trying times.

[@vanessawhitneypro]

I've been a nanny for 20+ years... I limit electronics for kiddos... Even when the parents already do... It helps Their Brains... It helps My Brain...

[@amor7796]

Offline is getting such a pleasure to watch.

[@benpaholke3922]

This is a catastrophic antitrust problem. When these systems are so tightly consolidated, it leads to large groups being incentivized randomly based on how systems are building themselves without their builder's knowledge or understanding.

[@kerlygerl]

I’m feeling very lucky that I’m awful at social media. I’m always apologizing or warning people that I’m there but not really there at all and I’ve sincerely felt bad that I’m an absent friend on social media. But no more! Now, I’m pleased with myself. ☺️

[@dv8edpov345]

This is by far the best book written on social media to date. I love the studies and sources, and the info on those who have left and returned to some of these social platforms. I am so happy to be free of social media - and watch how often I login to KZbin as well!

[@alioxinfree]

Really useful, thankyou. 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽💜 My key takeaway is perennial: real relationships take real time facing each other. We can take advantage of new funnels to start things, but depth+longevity take same effort they always have.

[@tyrnill]

I really needed to see this today (and once I cleaned out all the "short-form" 🤮 content from my recommendations, I finally did! I really feel like social media has made me literally stupider, and I hate it. Definitely going to read Max's book and use that (plus my notes from Stolen Focus) to figure out if there's a way to build a healthy social media presence.

[@azusa9963]

This is such an enlightened view of the effects of the internet and social media. Thank you. I am going to check out this book.

[@philosophynerdlady]

Best episode so far!

[@jeannieluna3009]

As I hit the ‘like’ lol. I found this to be fascinating & it helped me understand me. I stopped using fb in 2013-14 because I found it to be to be angry & full of bs. The long & short of it is … I instinctively knew for my own mental health; everything you discussed & wanted no part of it. Never tweeted, no instagram etc lol. Yes of course it still touches my life; I’m here aren’t I 😊 but does not invade or assault my life. Looking forward to reading the book!

[@organictroll]

Good but scary episode! But, not to reduce what social media encourages, I believe right wing radio (and later Fox) set the stage for extreme outrage for decades.

[@pattyayers]

Yes it’s a whole devilish parade of causes and influences

[@elizabethramey-estrada364]

Llp

[@helanna9843]

I know from experience that social media has given me a shorter attention span. Thanks for this wake up call. I need to reprogram my expectations.

[@patriciarowan4104]

And this is why I watch crooked media almost exclusively. The podcasts on this channel are so enlightening. Than you Jon!

[@patriciarowan4104]

@@NEbluefire of course there are biases….they exist in almost everything you study. One must be very careful when doing research of any kind.

[@kristencollodi8728]

Thank you for starting this podcast. Watching today’s episode. Just wanted to ask watching this one have you tried to get NBC’s Ben Collins for an episode?

[@jaelo2314]

The taste of power for politicians is parallel to the greed of capitalism. Addictive speech, and products, are lucrative for many

[@RobertHollander]

Just as I reached the end of this episode, I ordered the book from Amazon. It appeared immediately in my Kindle app. I look forward to reading it.

[@amyschmidt1113]

What a brilliant study and so helpful to share. I wish EVERYONE would watch this and put it into effect in their lives.

[@Blonde111]

This year is the first time I’ve ever been on FB, essentially to sell items on marketplace. It is addictive, and as soon as I sell most of my items, I’m done. It causes some weird anxiety in me.

[@SashaMirpour]

This was a fantastic episode keep up the great work!

[@Sliverth]

Really really good talk. Thanks.

[@TheChurchOfDinoJesus]

Great interview, and a really important topic. Honest question though, what is the difference between social media today and (for example) the shock jock radio hosts who inspired the Rwanda massacre? Is the problem just mass communication in general? Max talked about a lot of great and interesting research about the way that social media is changing the way we think, but I couldn't help but think that the explanations for events like Trump or Myanmar might be more simple and much older than this.

[@curtisdush5686]

This is so interesting….thank you for doing this work, and thank you for this interview.

[@calvinbaxter7151]

Just got the book on audible! Pumped thanks for all you ro

[@Thanatology101]

Great work as usual. Picked up the Chaos Machine on Audible to check out, though he remembers Gamergate -very- differently from me. To be fair, I've never been a big tech social media guy so a lot of the discussion I saw around it was in games and a few smaller forums I follow.

[@CH-cd5um]

Amazing how dangerous the social media algorithms have become.

[@carmenuljanicka6447]

Great episode!

[@erm204]

15 mins in and I can already identify like half a dozen people I know that fell into the “I should be outraged too”. Eg people that couldn’t tell you who neera tanden was the year prior but all of a sudden she’s the single biggest threat to the progressive movement Edit: a word Update: As others have said, best episode by far. The argument about in/out group and specifically “identify threats” is compelling, and perhaps the best one I’ve heard that accounts for a wide range of online behaviors that effect “real” world outcomes/behaviors. Definitely going to buy his book when it comes out.

[@mitziewheeler8517]

I don't get on Facebook that much anymore and my groups are private. There's no politics in any of them. I got back to reading books and watching pod cast and old movies on my phone or computer. Oh and I will admit shop. Especially since covid. When I was on Facebook all the time my brain started melting.

[@laurafolsom2048]

I’ve never tweeted and stopped Facebook after tRump…never again will I be addicted to it. My life is so much better for it.

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you.

[@roryoconnor31]

Great information thank you

[@vorpled]

It can be weaponised for good, but it ends up being a drop in the bucket. An Australian Twitter user named PRGuy17 consciously parroted the forms and language used by the fundamentalist conservative media figures to fight for progressive ideas, and it gained engagement from both sides of politics and he really punched above his weight in terms of the influence he had on the political narrative. He had a cooker even go to court to unmask him, and then outed himself in a video interview before the ruling, with the genius move of having that video watermarked right over his face with the domestic violence conviction of that cooker. It was perfect.

[@10-AMPM-01]

21:04 - A guest speaker from Coca-Cola Atlanta came to my university to talk about marketing... She actually used the "fine in moderation" line. I asked how she handled the contradiction in serving size and American health... She showed how she would dodge the question as if it were a senate inquiry... That must have been what it's like to get stonewalled at a press briefing. But, I believe it's a similar experience of PPP, Professional Peer Pressure. Emulate the current leadership to get where they are. Emulate adults until you become one...

[@fridajaspers6066]

These last two Offline Podcasts have been really informative and engaging. And it so happens I'm halfway through Jon Ronson's 'So You've Been Publicly Shamed' (2015) at the mo, about online moral outrage and public shaming (or 'cancel culture') of individuals in and not in the public eye in the 2010s, how it affected their lives. It's only slightly out of date, since a lot has happened since 2015, but 'outrage' seems as pervasive as ever and it's more politically polarised than ever. Any meaningful discussion is very hard to have. Suffice to say, I ditched both Facebook and Twitter years ago. KZbin is the only online social media site I visit regularly and yes, OAN, Newsmax, Ben Shapiro and others have been suggested to me by the algorithm. I can say with confidence, however, had I not avoided them, my laptop would have been flung out of the window multiple times.

[@livenandlove1980]

This was excellent!

[@jgray2718]

I don't have any good takeaways about the problems here, but I do have a positive thought: I've spent the last 15 years as a college math/stats professor. I teach mostly (~75%) freshmen and sophomores who really don't want to be taking my class but have to in order to graduate. Especially in statistics, I've found that most people are interested in most things if it's relevant to them in almost any way. If they receive interesting or surprising information about pretty much any topic, they become interested in that topic, even if it's something they never considered before. It's basically the Wikipedia Spiral phenomenon. I've attempted to use this to make stats more engaging, though it's anyone's guess how well it's actually worked. The trick is that you find something interesting and just drill on it, finding out more things along the way - it's very satisfying, but probably only works because I'm forcing it. The idea here is that you might be able to drive engagement and also learning at the same time by deliberately showing people interesting facts about relatively neutral topics. You can already see this in KZbin shorts, and in the creators who do like "5 interesting facts about Manta Rays" or whatever. It's sort of a shotgun approach to see what might hook your interest, and that becomes part of what the algorithm knows about you, but I think maybe what it might not know or have a score for is how interested you are in new information, not just _which_ new information you're interested in. Nudging people to be more interested in more stuff might actually help them choose healthy directions. I'm skeptical of the overall effectiveness here (it obviously doesn't compart to moral outrage when driving engagement), but there's definitely _something_ there.

[@tbone5816]

Incredible podcast!

[@heikejonassohn3492]

I stopped to respond to newsfeeds with likes or dislikes a while ago and only do it on positive or nature and animal posts. Boy my feed has changed drastically 😊

[@KlausJLinke]

One big problem in my opinion is that the people who write the algorithms (and the ways they self-optimize) fly by the seat of their pants. I remember the early 2000 when Usenet groups were replacd by web forums, and big corporations like Microsoft set up research groups on how to do social media properly. I read some of the research, and those people didn't have a clue what they were doing.

[@jugalhemani365]

Great show. Cal Newport should be invited too!

[@oldnepalihippie]

I wish Max and others would step back and get the bigger picture. Social media in the 1600s was the town crier. Then we had the desktop publishing revolution, more social media. Then out come the internet, and we got social porn. It does not take a powerful algo or clever coding to inflame and addict peeps, we are built that way (as slightly smarter monkeys) it seems.

[@sarajacobs4670]

This was fascinating and absolutely terrifying.

[@mtaukiri]

Thank you! I've been off work for the school holidays and that's led me to be on social media (youtube & twitter) way too much. Worse still I'm following US politics since the overturning of Roe and the warrant on Mar-a-Lago... I'm not American! (I do glance at local politics but I'm just wishing for a new general election to rectify that s#@tshow.) It's all become an incredibly morbid fascination fueling my "moral outrage"! I'd managed to control this for many years ever since deleting the FB app (one of the best things I ever did) and even though I know it's consuming too much of my day I'm still finding it difficult to turn off. Fortunately, I'm back to work tomorrow which might just save my sanity!

[@tylerhackner9731]

We are living in a world

[@tammystockley-loughlin7680]

Indeed. Positive vibes from New Hampshire, remember to be kind to each other and yourself during these trying times.

[@timfriday9106]

lol i graduated High School in 2003, and i had myspace *only* until I finally got facebook in like 2010-ish and I have never really adopted another social media since then. i have a tictok/snapchat/instagram. but I rarely use them. I only have them for when there is a news story or whatever that is on another platform, I can check it OR, maybe more likely, in order to talk to a girl that preferred that particular platform to talk so I would basically just use it to talk to them. lol

[@billligon4005]

So I have learned to ‘delete’ my FB account for one month (or whatever the time frame that will COMPLETELY delete the FB account). I use FB to communicate with friends who travel, we/they post pictures and makes comments of what they are doing. So I try to do ‘reduce’ the number of people in my ‘friends’ group. The first time I deleted my FB account it had become so toxic to me I had to do something. So when I create a new FB account I try to use a different email address also. So you can also message your true friends that you are going dark for a month.

[@timfriday9106]

"it just didn't pull out" LOL

[@tomasinacovell4293]

Landlords (corporate) - The Bane Of Humanity!

[@tammystockley-loughlin7680]

Especially corporate landlords...I have had ones that would work with me when life happened. Positive vibes from New Hampshire, remember to be kind to each other and yourself during these trying times.

[@tomasinacovell4293]

@@tammystockley-loughlin7680 Yeah, that's what I mean! :) Landlords (corporate) - The Bane Of Humanity!

[@njosborne6152]

Never forget that this is a Utility and needs to be regulated as any other Public Utility 🇺🇸

[@ruthantiaobong3502]

I do not have social media I have a Gmail and I use KZbin. But I find myself running away from people that I just met who are obsessed with the grams and whatever the hell else is out there the tweets and s***. To me people like that come off as f****** insane. There's a certain point of I'm sure you want to see what your college mates are doing whatever but now it's like people are just obsessed with appearing busy or what somebody in specific is doing where it's like almost borderline stocking. Thank you for this podcast by the way that's what I wanted to say lol

[@ntaylo6299]

The concept of a platform that controls itself with no one with the will to control or stop it, tells me unplugging is the answer. Cut down on consumption or be consumed.

[@elizabethwilkerson5434]

They understand but they make so much money they don't care. Their attitude is "if I don't do it someone else will" so I might as well get mine while I can.

[@davidg4026]

Max was talking about small community chats on Facebook and he said, "it's a good way to kill 30 seconds at a stoplight." What??, Seriously Max??!! First, if you need to check Facebook for 30 seconds at a stoplight, everything you said for the past hour is useless! Second, how about being aware of your surroundings and the color of the traffic light while you're in control of a motor vehicle!!

[@NancyRose11]

Key words: "The systems learned..." "...under siege..." The "like/dislike" of AI taps into adolescent insecurities and our population is basically not adult enough to stand your own ground, stand by your principles, educate yourself. I got briefly OCD about getting emails, checking constantly, but could identify it as a problem and purposefully stop the behavior.

[@carinamoses2704]

I really dislike bullying, whether it comes from left or right. There is a lot of online bullying unfortunately. I like the block button. I hope when the pandemic ends volunteer political activism and community organizing can be easier to do offline since doing political activities and writings and such online, in a toxic political environment such as ours contemporary one which is still suffering from the damage done our nation and world by Trump is exceedingly difficult and also it is emotionally exhausting. But there is nothing to do but keep going!

[@mitchlauner9355]

No damage from the unrelenting denouncing of Republicans?

[@grantjohnston7148]

Interesting interview. Thing is a vast majority of people didn't bother with politics before tRump, COVID, George Floyd, tRumps reaction to COVID, the war in Russia, the assult on a woman's right to an abortion, and now the threat of fascism is a huge factor in explaining why so many are now involved with politics. Which of course is a good thing. Messaging in politics is very important in normal times, and much more so in our current political landscape as this interview shows so well. But Repetitive messaging is a huge factor behind the reason so many do not understand the moral issues we face with today's situation in the US as an example. Repetitive messaging over a lifetime simply cannot be overstated ! And is almost the one and only reason so many people struggle to understand the FACT that far right fascist individuals must be outlawed from running for office. The long term pernicious effects of repetitive messaging, and the fact so many accept falsehoods originally, then are exposed to repetitive messaging over a lifetime is how someone would believe just anyone should be allowed to enter into politics, when nothing could be further from the truth. This interview about social media and its effects, empirical evidence, history, brain science, and the pernicious effects of repetitive messaging combined all prove this point quite clearly. It may be difficult to understand for many, but only because of first accepting something as fact where there is none, while not thinking of the issue critically make one susceptible to believe non truths more and more as time goes by, and the pernicious effects of long term repetitive messaging ! Ultimately i see this issue of so many not capable of understanding far right fascist individuals must be outlawed to be the second biggest problem we face in today's world, next to the environment. Or some may say the biggest issue. Todays world is much too complex for people in politics who are basically morally challenged. Morally challenged means they are not capable of understanding the cause and effect related to the human human factor. As Conservative vs Liberal brain, and how alcohol effects your politics both show the lack of critical thinking will result in the individual as Conservative. So as they go further to the right, they become more Conservative, and less capable of critical thinking. Make no mistake, there is totally and absolutely no logical or sane argument to continue allowing far right fascist individuals to run for office. However there are almost an endless amount of reasons to outlaw far right fascist individuals from running for office.

[@grantjohnston7148]

The conversation of outlawing far right fascist individuals is very much overdue and urgently needs to be addressed.

[@coloradoterroir8736]

I don't know how I can say this more reasonably, but IT'S ABOUT ETHICS IN GAMING JOURNALISM!!!!1. /s

[@MrSaltphone]

not mine! I don't go on crap..if you want me to sign up, give my email, accept your stupid cookies, I'm especially not interested. Ever.

[@065exclusive]

We’re living in a world?????😟😦😧😧😲😲

[@alisonmcrae1281]

I logged off. Kept it off my tablet on my phone for addresses I want to keep. It is impossible to have a CONVERSATION on FB the forum is very easy to make short asinine retorts.

[@danuall5816]

In related news. Meta sued for $2bn over Ethiopia violence, Facebook's algorithm helped fuel the viral spread of hate and violence during Ethiopia's civil war, a legal case alleges. Deactivation is bliss

[@MargaretPinard]

I am the same age as Jon! Whew, feeling seen now with IM college comment 😅

[@energizme100]

I'm 52 yrs old, I have never used Facebook, twitter, etc... I have been a computer tech since I was 16 yrs old. The friends I have currently are the people I have chosen to include in my life. I never understood the need to keep in touch with people I went to high school or x girlfriends etc. . . I use my "smart phone for calling, texting & as a camera, music. That's it. Within the past 10 yrs, I have seen the IQ of everyone around the country fall dramatically. People seem to focus on tiny little grievances more & people seem to be more closed off. Democracy is ON THE LINE. Democracy requires the populace to be able to make choices and be critical about candidates based upon policies in which the PERSON has a history of legislating. I used to be an independent voter because, sometimes I would vote for both parties depending upon the candidate. NOT ANYMORE. GQP party is a party of FASCist's. PERIOD. CROOKED MEDIA was instrumental in helping me fill in my ballot last Pres Election. I live in CO, Everyone(all registered voters) In CO receives a ballot in the mail. Voting Blue all the way down the ticket is easy. Crooked Media helped me fill in the referendums (very confusing wording).

[@eek6764]

Yeah, I know for a fact that, as of 2019, literally 100% of Identity Evropa (now American Identity Movement) joined because of KZbin - specifically the American Renaissance channel. KZbin has done a lot since then to shut this stuff down though. It’s very noticeable.

[@alexsandrapowell393]

This is a problem for much smarter people than I, but does anyone know if any thinktanks have been created to try to solve this?

[@Imtrappedintheinternetsendhelp]

A drug that causes us to feel outrage, where those who are more “social” feel more outrage. We can often drink and use drugs safely because we know how to differentiate the effect of the drug from reality. But it’s a silent effect that we must know how to manage if we seek to differentiate outrage from reality, from machines that are programmed to affect our emotions.

[@tammystockley-loughlin7680]

So glad to never be Facebook...I would have had to not be friends with my family...I don't want to go that far,lol. Positive vibes from New Hampshire ,remember to be kind to each other and yourself during these trying times.

[@missy2244]

I’m a 70 yr old retired Psychologist/Happy Atheist. I’ll have another gummy and a couple of “pen draws”. LOL Namaskar Dear Ones:)):)):))

[@lnelson888]

Re watch Meredith Wilson’s “The Music Man”. Harold Hill gets the whole town to buy band instruments by creating outrage over a pool table. It’s an old technique..with a new very loud technological loud speaker…”we go trouble my friends!”

[@alanbarton2645]

You've missed old adages that dictate how ppl interact, the online platforms have just rediscovered how to make a person believe... whatever. The old adage, 'a person is smart, people are stupid'. Don't let other ppl influence what you think! Today, because of SM, ppl conform due to peer pressure. Haha, everyone on SM is definitely screwed! See you at armageddon

[@sharonp6672]

Why does John keep interviewing journalist?