Mill Vs Discard | With Spice8Rack

[@CardmarketMagic]

😱😵 Decklists: bit.ly/3CiSha9 More Feature Match videos: kzbin.info/aero/PLLHPZ4KRrrKuccXZnRFOb50QBfe4unMR5

[@Spice8Rack]

This game was so deeply instructive. My research will bear fruit before too long!!

[@SirToastyToes]

Truly the Urza of our time

[@Mwarrior1991]

your taunts pain me mi'lord...

[@renfineout5350]

It's wild to me that mill vs discard was released on a different channel

[@CardmarketMagic]

@@renfineout5350 This is not the final Mill vs Discard, it's a peek behind the scenes of some Cardmarket-funded research into the matter

[@johnterbot2829]

How is this not a partial quote of an existing flavor text in a game filled with mad scientists!?

[@MrBe56]

To me mill feels like an erosion of long term memoery, you dont realize youve lost it until you try and remember it. Discard seems like forcing your opponent to forget something they are actively trying to do through a spell that fogs their brain.

[@Kennythesamuri]

Long term vs Working Memory!

[@Aaarrrgh89]

Discard is a migraine, mill is permanent brain damage.

[@livedandletdie]

@@Aaarrrgh89 Discard is Norwegian, Mill is Swedish.... Flashback is Danish. Buyback is German, Recover is Finnish, Reanimate is British, Madness is Finnish... I can't think of more interactive mechanics...

[@FR0STBL0D]

@@Kennythesamuri Amnesia vs dissociation. Traumatised folks usually do know both ... and can tell. (And actually WotC did a great job in theme-ing the cards accordingly.) Among my kitchen table decks ... it's Ashiok Mill vs. Faerie Discard in mirrored colours. Both decks are dear to me and do have secondary creature win cons.

[@Redsword1550]

Makes sense how it works as a win condition too. The mill effects are like dementia, when you lose all memory completely and still try to function, you just can't.

[@NicolaiBolas]

11:50 "I thought this was mill, not exile." "Ooh. Burn... it's not that either." Spice8Rack cracks me up.

[@JimFaindel]

This only makes me all the more invested for the eventual release of your "Ethics of mill vs discard" 2 hours essay.

[@leonardoross8133]

Guess what

[@jeezuhskriste5759]

I think this is the closest game of anything I’ve ever seen. One player a single life away from victory, the other a single card away from defeat. Truly incredible.

[@KingOfDoma]

Which is fun to watch, but bad for research. If it all comes down to one single draw, it functionally IS a draw! Neither deck had the clear advantage! Jamin and Spicy have to play another 99 games to get a definitive result!

[@Thecalebpoe]

Thought you might enjoy this based on your comment. I was playing mill against burn one time. When I ended my turn he had no cards in library and I was at 5 life. Problem was he had a Rift bolt on suspend with a Guttersnipe in play. Rift bolt plus Guttersnipe did exact lethal to me on his upkeep before he could draw from an empty library. It was truly epic.

[@StiggyAzalea]

The way you worded that means you're talking about the same person both times

[@tannerfarley]

If this isn’t used as a resource at some point during the eventual mill vs discard video then I don’t even know what I’m doing on this planet

[@kingdavidsavior9473]

that’s if there is a mill vs discard video

[@dreamsalongthepath7377]

@@kingdavidsavior9473 that’s if there actually is another video.

[@lolthspawn]

The most historic moment in mtg history

[@NStripleseven]

The one time that the life-paying on the fetch lands matters

[@bestaround3323]

Oh, so that is why he couldn't do it.

[@heitortremor]

Big fan of the discussion from the players talking about their turns beyond the commentary while the game is happening

[@CityState_of_Valletta]

I thought it was a parody of those silly reality TV shows. But it did add a nice bit of commentary along with it intentions aside.

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

@@CityState_of_Valletta It’s not overhyped, which is what makes it good imo. Command Zone does the same thing, but they ham their reactions up big time, and they’re not particularly good at it. Exaggerated but empty facial expressions, half-hearted “intense” tones of voice....it comes off as an amateur attempt to create artificial hype. This just felt like natural post-game thoughts and reactions rather than hype.

[@drewgranger6037]

Tasha's Hideous Laughter in DnD, causes a form of temporary insanity. Hence the uncontrollable laughter. In Magic, the library represents your mind. Milling the library has always been a reference to insanity in Magic's history.

[@yakopc6600]

Spice knows that, they argued that it's a flavour fail because mill is a semi-permanent form of insanity while in DnD it doesn't have lasting effects

[@drewgranger6037]

@yakopc6600 Hmm perhaps tasha's should have been a discard spell then. Like 3 mana choose 2 to make them discard

[@Enja_Near]

I've always thought of cards in hand being conscious thoughts, and cards in library being subconscious ones, as well as memories.

[@kingofmayband]

Great take

[@jellysandjamz250]

I really appreciate the fact that you made Jamin’s life bar flash when he was hit for 0. It’s the little things

[@CardmarketMagic]

I'm thankful you noticed it :)

[@jellysandjamz250]

@@CardmarketMagicit’s actually been a dream of mine to somehow take a player out using a creature with base power 0; preferably a Birds of Paradise.

[@nilspipenbrinck8040]

Nice to see that - after all these years - we get finally a scientific study on that mill vs. discard topic.. 😆

[@smartkaboose3806]

Oh my god I can't believe the first official mill vs discard video is here 😂😂😂 I love it!

[@DigitalSniper45]

Fun fact: Otawara can remove Liliana permanently with her own ability.

[@CardmarketMagic]

That is fun!

[@zaneghiskhan]

How?

[@groynin]

@@zaneghiskhan I guess... If you plus Liliana with no cards in hand, and then the opponent has Otawara in hand and bounces Lili to your hand while the ability is on the stack, then you will have to discard her to the effect, removing her 'permanently'.

[@DigitalSniper45]

@@zaneghiskhan Exactly what the other guy said. Liliana frequently creates states where her controller has no cards in hand, but the opponent has 1. If Otawara bounces her with her ability on the stack and no cards in hand, she'll have to be discarded when the ability resolves.

[@TheStalk]

This collaboration had been amazing, all three videos so far have been excellent. And now, finally we get a bit closer to the most important video ever.

[@danielaxc2900]

The difference is one deck made my play group not want to invite me to anymore games and the other one actually got them to stop inviting me to games.

[@bestaround3323]

Which was which?

[@Talking_Ed]

@@bestaround3323 Yes.

[@smokyprogg]

@@bestaround3323 I had a friend build 8-rack and it was the most miserable time I ever had playing Magic. Mill is basically burn with a different life counter, but discard just draws out the game while forcing you into topdeck mode by the end. Yuck.

[@GamerdevilPro]

​@@smokyprogg you know you can just concede when they got you? Just go next lol

[@Krunschy]

8:07 This celebration is absolutely hilarious. Gotta love this chap for spicy stuff like this.

[@Cloudy573]

Wow, unbelievably tense match! And please keep bringing Spice back for more things in the future!

[@titos2x]

My friend was a magic semi pro back in 2008-9 and regional in pokemon and yugi-oh. He taught me so much about card games and their mechanics. I'm so glad you guys did this, because this was the epic match-up between me and him after learning from him. Shout-out to Justin from Georgia!

[@hallaloth3112]

Lol, this is how my mill deck usually runs! It either a) makes someone rage quit b) gets swarmed by creatures c) actually mills someone only to find they have for some reason put anti-mill strats in their deck d) once in a blue moon actually wins legitimately without someone conceding.

[@MansMan42069]

In Yu-Gi-Oh, there's an archetype called Lightsworn. Their entire gimmick is self-milling at the end of the turn. Lorewise, it's suppose to represent the Lightsworn as this corps of supernatural saviours that leave just as fast as the arrive once the catastrophe is averted.

[@ich3730]

how does milling yourself show them staying only for a short time? that doesnt make any sense xD

[@MansMan42069]

@@ich3730 because by self-milling, it shows that the Lightsworn can only remain for a limited time. They either win and leave or they die trying (decking out). That's why they have a card named "Charge of the Light Brigade", after the military disaster of a British light cavalry charge during the Crimean War.

[@wingofshu]

Dark world archetype is more interesting and aslo more completed as they had so few reprints just reading them mills your mind literly

[@calebd2376]

Spice 8 Rack is so amusing to watch and I wish I could watch them play magic all day 😭😭 I loved this!

[@thrillhouse4151]

Mmm, discard has many forms, and so does mill, there’s a bunch of green cards that self-mill, but it’s usually tied to getting something back. Self-mill in green seems to be about decay and the cycle of life, and self discard in red can represent a whole ton of things. The real Mill Vs Discard video would have to be like three hours to account for all the implications for every instant of mill and discard. When it comes to creatures that love straight up discarding cards in black there’s Specters, that discard on combat usually, and all sorts of rats, corrupt court officials, and now Virus Beetles that make an opponent discard when they enter, so there’s CREATURE aesthetics at play as well.

[@Meddling_Mage]

awesome matchup! enjoying spice8rack's involvement in the videos and fun to actually see him talking about 8 rack

[@vaggelisfear]

As a mill player on modern and discard on commander, I loved this video!

[@zanecords1821]

I'm really enjoying seeing my boy spice8rack with you guys at card market! A team up I didn't know I needed!

[@byrontheusurper6505]

I was like "oh a fetchland, he wins. What was the text on that again? Ooooh... OOOOOH!"

[@nihtwynn1022]

I see 8Rack I upvote I see mill I upvote I see Spice8Rack I upvote I see Jamin I upvote Seems like this episode was made for me. Now do Pioneer!

[@ravedave1272]

This video was a blast! :D Kinda sad, that this wasn't a Bo3 It was great to have Spice8Rack with you this week. The content was insane! :D

[@michaelhough5003]

This is before I watch the video. Mill is from the library, discard is from the hand. So, while both actions result in a card going to the graveyard, discard is stronger because it unloads your opponents hand. If your library is supposed to be your brain, the spells you remember, then milling is like making it difficult to remember something, like it's on the tip of your tongue, like you know you know it, but it's just out of reach. It's confusion, not paying attention. It's being a little disoriented until you eventually collapse. It's a slow, background affect. It's having your memory taken and slowly going insane. Discarding, then, would be more like suffering direct mental damage. Waking up with a headache because of a cursed dream. magically induced mental function reduction. A strong blow to the head, a blast of psychic energy, your brain rotting. Since your hand is the things you're currently able to do, it's like the thought you're currently having, is being forced out of your brain, and your brain can't handle having another one without help.

[@michawojtal3974]

The intro is unbearably perfect. Love it!

[@FR0STBL0D]

16:40 ... mill into exile ... has a lot of nonbo issues. It shuts down "drown in the loch" and many other cards that are useful in any kind of mill strategy.

[@byrontheusurper6505]

Never heard of urza's saga, looks rlly cool!

[@jimbojizums]

I have a Black Blue Zombie Mill deck that I love playing. It's not the most competitive deck ever but I still love it. I have went to great lengths to nerd out on it. It used to be more pure Dimir but now it's the Mill/Undead Alchemist deck.

[@m.fraguelaxd2546]

He did it. He made the mill vs discard video.

[@tameuktabi6121]

Like the background music, actually adds to the vibe without being intrusive

[@ty_sylicus]

Firstly, WE LOVE SPICE. Second, the hands and other on-screen reminders are a super way to help viewers track the state of play. Nicely done!

[@marcoottina654]

12:00 I don't know why Spice8Rack didn't used the Vision of Beyond to grab a land, cast the crab, second Vision and maybe put a land the other way is harder to use the Visions

[@findlayrutherford]

god I want spice to chase me around threatening me to play a game of magic

[@poketech7192]

Please do another Urza's AI game!! THAT WAS SO MUCH FUN!! I re-watched it twice!! PLEASE!!!

[@CardmarketMagic]

We have another one coming out in 2 weeks :)

[@smartkaboose3806]

@@CardmarketMagic LETS GOOO

[@derekso1950]

For me discard is limiting card advantage and flexibility in play and decision making. Mill is reducing future options and deck efficiency/usability by reducing possible draws and interactions in the deck. All in all one affects short term (long term if done repeatedly/and immediate winning power) and milling affects long term (and overall chance of winning/endurance if done a lot).

[@Loki-]

It must be really hard to get hand/board state(HUD) and commentary basically play by play, but it makes for an educational and fun viewing experience, especially for a newb like me.

[@Arkanemacht]

9:30 i think with laughter, the flavour could make sense if you see it like this: the laughter affects the player, who is a powerfull mage lorewise. Due to the uncontrollable laughter, he can't concentrate on casting spells, maybe dropping scrolls/tomes/ingredients. Maybe milling cards equal value instead of milling a certain amount of cards represents the dice-throwing on will each turn, with higher value cards representing higher willstat (maybe as in needing a high will to cast such powerfull spells/keep such powerfull summoned creatures under your controll?) maybe something in that direction, i am not sure what exactly WotC had in mind ^^'

[@radiantpython]

The beginning of this video sounds like something I would hear from Rhystic Studies.

[@draconianmethods704]

The more I watch Spice8Rack, the more I fall in love with the persona he portrays. Its just so FUN!

[@Ieafff]

8 rack is my favorite deck love the 8 rack gameplay keep it up!

[@MatteBlacke]

I really like all the people you have on your show. Everyone is really smart and likeable and has a unique personality

[@byrontheusurper6505]

The only person I mill is myself so I've played neither of these... maybe I should make a discard deck tho, sounds fun... for me...

[@ericdundas9768]

Tasha's hideous laughter doesn't seem on flavor, but the spell can be incredibly powerful and life-saving in combat encounters all throughout dnd gameplay. It's a little random, but could do a lot. That is similar in power to the card, so I like the application.

[@ich3730]

it also conveys the act of rolling dice for checks to see when you stop laughing. You essentially roll dice with your cards until you "roll high enough" to stop. The card is quite sweet with its flavor actually. Make your opponent laugh until they rolled high enough to stop, dropping all their stuff ( cards ) in the process.

[@shanewilliams4614]

Touch of idiocy would have been a better spell to call on for reference to that particular card

[@williamscerbo458]

There's been some good 8 rack representation on the channel recently, I love to see it. Would love to see more Pioneer games or maybe a CEDH game if you all are into that!

[@siradzki5905]

"I thought it was mill and not exile... graveyard... wise.." "Ooh! Burn!! But its not that either! ;-) Ha ha ha! We have fun." Your humour really speaks to me xD Another great video 👌

[@cosmicprison9819]

That ending was like straight out of any card-game anime episode 😂.

[@paperpauperplayer]

Spice calling you a bastard in the background at 12:20 for top decking pithing needle made me choke on my water. Lmfao

[@Ranakel]

I'm too conditionned. At the 1:38 smooch I smooched back without thinking.

[@livedandletdie]

From what I see, not enough synergy in the mill deck, where's the infinite triggered hedron and ruin crab landfalls, due to risen reef + Arcane Adaptation. Risen Reef + Arcane Adaptation + Hedron/Ruin Crab is scarily good of a combo.

[@FlourescentPotato]

lol, just lol

[@hermelin12]

This intro was very instructive. The video was great keep it up! :D

[@idanbhk3875]

Based on Hideous Laughter and the difference between black and blue, I think: Mill represents inability to focus, or losing the opportunity/time to take actions (having less cards) because your mind is locked/preoccupied/dazed. At the end, when you lose to mill, you run out of time / are too confused to see any options. You also can't really recover from that, since you did lose the time spent dazed. However, you still play normally, because when your mind is clear it works just fine. Memory erasure is also mill, not damaging your mind but making you forget that options exist (rather than seeing them in front of you and not choosing them). Discard, on the other hand, represents insanity or brain damage, limiting the options in front of you because of reduced mental "bandwidth" or because you take illogical/inappropriate/desperate actions, eventually leaving your mind too weak to make any choice except what is obviously presented to you. That being said, the cards aren't entirely consistent with any interpretation.

[@witchcraft2264]

Can't believe the long awaited mill vs discard video isn't even on spice's own channel. It is as great as always though

[@CardmarketMagic]

This is not the final Mill vs Discard video, just a first step down a long journey!

[@witchcraft2264]

@@CardmarketMagic I figured :)

[@snowhusk]

19:50 I literally groaned "Dude, goddamnit!", and slapped my windowsill as I watched this. Spice, you fool, you should have fetched for tapped dual land, now you got two lands in one pile that can't cast glimpse the unthinkable!! That being said, that game was incredible,d that game was beautiful, I'm genuinely genuinely moved

[@Saiku]

Homie was channeling The Mighty Boosh so much when he dropped the lose cannon line, not playin by the rules.

[@frenchertoast]

My god the subtle pause it takes to look at the 👌 I can't 💀 lov ya spice!

[@JegErDem]

Mill vs. Hand Hate is by far the best match up I've ever played.

[@munsterotaku3058]

12:10 when your own monologue turn out to be spied by your opponent

[@nickjoseph77]

Two minute intro was spot on brilliant. 😂

[@datawulf88]

Oh I loved this game. My temporarily most loved decks are Discard/8Rack and Mill. I really get some hatred in my playgroup for these decks, but it's so much fun playing. 😂

[@raggle_productions]

Thank you spice 8 rack for finally sticking to the bit.

[@SerifSansSerif]

It's simple. Mill targets your library specifically and is about removing as many cards (quantity) from your draw pile as it can. It's about limiting your options by just removing as many option as it can without you getting a choice. Discard is either targeting the hand or library or battlefield to remove specific cards, or force you to make a choice you do not want to make. Discard is cards that allow you to look at the hand and tell your opponent to remove one specific. It's a card that allows the opponent to draw, but it will force a choice and you HAVE to toss a card away. It targets the top card of the library like mill does, but it's about removing that card that was tutored for. Discard is telling your opponent they have to pick a creature on the feel and either return it to hand or sac it, but it's forcing again a choice. You're USUALLY having to make a choice that limits your options. EDIT: Self Mill and Self discard/cycling aren't really mill/discard. They're graveyard recursion decks, and the mill/discard are just there to fill the GY up.

[@alexiswigginton452]

Loved the intro soooooo much, couldnt stop laughing felt like i would faint

[@Moetastic]

Discard is like destroying someones short term memory/working memory and milling is like destroying someones long term memory. Milling to me is scarier, because its like you are losing your identity, whereas discard is like being distracted momentarily which can result in something not serious or serious, like forgetting to throw out the trash vs forgetting to turn off your gas stove.

[@danfrost2859]

I have been waiting, no, EDGING since your Yawgmoth RP video to discuss such things. THANK YOU FOR BEING SOMEWHAT MORE THAN LESS HONEST!!!

[@starryskies9655]

This video was so powerful it couldn’t be put on Spice’s channel

[@Evelaraevia]

Unbelievable how close this game was. Either one could have won this game too, but I still love mill even if it lost.

[@nicolasfurger1032]

I’m subscribed and Spice8rack makes it even better.

[@WibblyWobbly1905]

Whenever Tasha's hideous laughter ends for me in dnd the target is usually bound and soon to be killed, much like someone finding most of their library missing

[@JacktheDoctor]

I think discard is like a short term memory lapse if you will, can be due to hunger, tiredness, ptsd, drunkenness, etc. You lose what you are trying to recall at the moment, but you can recuperate later with time/effort. Mill is akin to developing dementia, it tackles your long term, olden days memories, and the more it progresses from mild cognitive impairment to full blown bedridden dementia, the harder anything is left to recall and closer death is, slowly, but surely. I think that's what both feel most like in real life equivalents.

[@nadrojylrach9637]

I absolutely loved the intro!!

[@igniortix]

Love this show. This video should be a peer reviewed paper

[@donmanoy]

I love Spice8Rack is rockin the Singaporean Kebaya. This pattern is usally worn by flight attendants of the Singapore Airlines. Awesome!

[@CasperGrimshaw]

I'm missing some specific interaction that I just don't see. Why was cracking the polluted delta at the end not helpful?

[@CardmarketMagic]

Because you have to pay 1 life to crack it, which would put Spice at 0 life, losing them the game, before the second land would even enter

[@moleculeman27]

That was mint! Thank you

[@DismemberTheAlamo]

Unrelated, I want both of Spice's shirt. The swag is just **Chefs kiss**

[@dangerdean9066]

What broke my mind was Tasha's Hideous Laughter

[@SeleenShadowpaw]

I actually think the flavour distinction between mill and discard is that black discard is usually about changing the current mind state of someone (Thought seize, go blank, davriel cane, megrim, etc) while blue mill is more about long term modification and like stealing hopes and dreams or confronting someone with with facts or realities that invalidate their core beliefs (Thought scour, maddening cacophony, nemesis of reason, etc). In blue black they kind of both mix thematically, especially in black milling effects, but neither the color pie nor the rnd/design team are perfect after all. I do however think there is a distinct but subtle flavor difference and it mostly boils down to how permanently you mess with someones head.

[@thejamjarastronaut]

I think the flavor for hideous laughter is there. I'd get pretty scared if I began laughing for no reason, and then couldn't stop, and then COULDN'T STOP. It's like the fuzzy duck meme in that it's yet another source of psychic damage.

[@PaganScholar]

I think Tasha's Hideous Laughter works flavor-wise as mill. The opponent is inflicted with laughter to the point where they start going insane, hurting themselves and destroying their library. Kind of like glimpse the unthinkable, you're messing with you opponent's head/library and ruining them from the inside out so they can't cast spells or they ruin their chance at casting spells. But I'm a weirdo and like eldritch horror madness stuff like that.

[@yeturs69420]

It doesn't do that in the game. It just disables a creature. It's like "lesser hold monster" It should be a tap and can't untap effect, or something

[@benkostowniak9826]

I think tasha's hidous laugher is more like you cast it on your opponent and (correct me if I am wrong) but in the lore of magic the players are wizards casting spells with the dek being the spells you know, so tasha's basically makes the wizard laugh and forgets stuff

[@Yan-my7es]

Is it pointless to combine both? I want to build something like a sacrifice, mill, discard deck...

[@PeteB90]

Never knew I needed an answer to this question

[@ja17979]

What happened at the end? That was poluted delta wasn't it? Cracking which would have milled 3 more causing the discard to loose. Am I missing something?

[@CardmarketMagic]

Cracked polluted delta costs you one life, and the mill player was at 1 😐

[@ja17979]

@@CardmarketMagic Thank you ! That was the missing part.

[@moralessanchezoscarelias6412]

Brilliant episode!

[@Arrowatch]

Was 'Didn't Say Please' not good enough to run in the sideboard for the mill deck? Counter spell + mill 3?

[@CardmarketMagic]

3 mana is a lot 😐 if the deck wanted counterspells, it would probably rather the card "Counterspell", as it only costs 2 mana

[@bestaround3323]

@@CardmarketMagic but counterspell doesn't mill three

[@CardmarketMagic]

@@bestaround3323 mill three is definitely worth less than lower mana cost 🙂

[@bestaround3323]

@@CardmarketMagic if you milled three more cards you would have won the game though lol

[@Smeagolthevile]

I won a 2 headed giant game w/ a pair of mill decks at one point. You dont want to run exclusivly mill, thats how you end up in these situations, you want to use some mill creatures (like wight of presinct 6) that are better w/ mill, inorder to give them a threat to have to worry about. Even if you cant mill them out, its life pressure.

[@theforesttroll]

I agree with the Tasha's hideous laughter point, stuff like Feeblemind or Phantasmal killer would make so much more sense! smt hthat deals psychic damage at least

[@pedrogonzalez5340]

Spice 8 rack not playing the 8 rack deck was a surprise twist XD

[@alicemursteinlesbefaen666]

holy moly more spice8rack!!

[@Jps927]

It’s Russel brand vs the science guy from crash course :O

[@MeriadocMyr]

I don't think asking for cards in library is legal in 60 card formats, since you can run more cards and you are not required to tell your opponent how many you start with. or did that change?

[@bestaround3323]

It was for the audience's sake.

[@CardmarketMagic]

The amount of cards in your library are always public information 😉 all the online clients allow you to see the total cards in players' libraries and, as the rules stipulate : >401.3. Any player may count the number of cards remaining in any player's library at any time.

[@MeriadocMyr]

Any idea since when this is a thing? because I am pretty sure it wasn't always that way.

[@CardmarketMagic]

@@MeriadocMyr since always. It's important to make sure your opponent has the correct amount of starting cards in their library.

[@MeriadocMyr]

That makes sense, maybe i have just been lied to, but then again it has been over 20 years so I am not sure. I still struggle weekly on which cards can target planeswalkers

[@Meteorlink]

huh neat, i actually won my first ever magic game against my brother with the rack because he misscounted his goblin red burn nonsense damage and i survived the turn with him at an empty hand