Miller's Musket Conversion: The Trapdoor We Have At Home

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In 1865, brothers William and George Miller of Meriden CT patented a system to convert percussion muskets to use the new Rimfire ammunition that was becoming available. Between 1865 and 1867, the local Meridan Manufacturing Company converted 2,000 surplus US Model 1861 muskets (mostly made by Parker & Snow) to the Miller system, using .58 Rimfire ammunition. The US military tested one of these conversions in 1867, and found it to suffer from some gas leakage and about a 3% misfire rate. There was no further Army interest, although the New York and Maryland state militias did both purchase small numbers of the guns.
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[@markchabot3684]

I have a trapdoor conversion rifle. It was built and patented by my great great grandfather. He only built two of them. Still in the original box with the bayonet and two boxes of 58 rimfire rounds. I found a copy of the letter from the army saying they were using the Allan conversion over his.

[@carlinglin7289]

Maybe Ian could do a video about it? Would love to see it.

[@stefanmolnapor910]

Email it to Ian Please

[@ForgottenWeapons]

I would be very interested in knowing more about these - can you email me at [e-mail]?

[@collind.5207]

@@garethrichmond4388 i don’t know why but I really like the placement of the congratulations.

[@Salieri47]

That is beyond cool!

[@lairdcummings9092]

Trapdoor conversions are probably the most efficient - and useful - fate for surplus muzzleloaders.

[@nialltomy15]

Except on basically all cases they were more expensive and inferior to dedicated breach loading rifles of the day

[@robertrobert7924]

They also did not have to pay a royalty for them because they were invented by a Federal Armory employee.

[@jerrydickerson1111]

And the us gov surplused all the repeaters like Spencer’s I’d rather have a spencer

[@Treblaine]

Don't look at it as "all these rifles are sitting around doing nothing" look at it as "look at all these arms factories sitting around doing nothing" That is the value of trapdoor rifles. Not in converting existing rifles but adapting existing production lines. Also steel quality was advancing so much in this time it was absolutely worth having springfield arsenal keep making new rifles with better materials, better quality control, and consolidating all their lessons from the war. The best thing to do with old muzzle loaders is sell them as they are, they may be obsolete but plenty would rather have any rifle at all. It would be fine for any medium game hunter, and countries like Japan at this time were looking for an upgrade from their smoothbore matchlock rifles. Also they may not be fast to load but they are still rifles, they can be used to teach rifle marksmanship, teach range estimation and how to adjust sights with much cheaper ammunition.

[@underpaidmook]

​@@nialltomy15 I mean, they were usually intended as a stop-gap measure to convert a bunch of existing rifles that would usually be obselete instead of having to find a design and retool factories to produce said designs.

[@ThePerfectRed]

Somehow this breech assembly looks astonishing modern to me. Pure functionality, straight edges and lines. Particularly that rear piece that you lift up looks like a totally today's creation.

[@causewaykayak]

I got that impression too.

[@Dunkopf]

Sure but it also seems more intensive to manufacture

[@craigthescott5074]

I have an Allin 50-70 conversion trapdoor that was found by my great grandfather in the early 1900’s at fort Lowell in Tucson. The story is he found it hidden up in the roof rafters when the fort was still standing.

[@johnwoods3184]

Being born and raised in Tucson Az. it's great hearing history of Ft. Lowell!

[@craigthescott5074]

@@johnwoods3184 yea John I live in Phx and I took my boys down to the museum they said I have the only known weapon from the fort. They have a few period weapons but none from the fort.

[@johnwoods3184]

@@craigthescott5074 Most awesome!

[@raijinmeister]

That trapdoor design is remarkably modern. What an ingenious piece of engineering.

[@Savage-cr1zf]

Pick one up at a local gun store in Maryland a few years ago. Thought it was a neat piece of history. Early cartridge development is interesting to say the least.

[@Marc83Aus]

Seems like a pretty elegant solution

[@calvingreene90]

One does wonder how many of the misfires were do to the ammunition.

[@volentimeh]

Indeed, didn't some arms have 2 different rim impact points to help prevent misfires from ammo production issues.

[@dwaneanderson8039]

Yeah, that or weak hammer springs. They probably left the original hammer springs in them, though it would be an easy fix if that was the problem.

[@calvingreene90]

@@dwaneanderson8039 But that is a problem with the gun not the ammunition.

[@sunnyglowvt]

I love musket conversions. Keeps the old timey look but using updated technology, so cool

[@robinblackmoor8732]

There is still is a Meriden Manufacturing company in Connecticut. I am not sure if it is the same one that the Miller brothers had. it is a machine shop and assembly company. There was a Miller brothers knife company way back when, that also might be related to this story. Connecticut has made a lot of stuff over the years All the factories in the mid-west get all the attention, but Connecticut has made many things and a lot of them.

[@bb5242]

CT was once an industrial powerhouse, but no longer

[@robinblackmoor8732]

@@bb5242 Not a powerhouse. The Colt factories are no more. The iron foundries that made cannonballs are gone too. It is a more specific manufacturing state now. Concentrating on certain items like submarines and helicopters. There are still a lot of machine shops in the state.

[@TheREBwater]

I particularly enjoyed this video. My Dad acquired several muzzleloaders his younger years I assume in the 1940s-50s. I have them now. A couple were flintlock conversions to percussion cap. This video goes to the next level. The smaller 36 caliber ones have the thick, octagonal barrel that weighs a ton (well, about 14 pounds). The weight has the benefit of steadying the gun when aiming. Beautiful rifles. The sound, the smell, the smoke. Ahhhhh! ALWAYS interesting. Thanks for this one!

[@codicusshafficus5055]

The engineering that goes into something like this is so cool! Repurposing your old family musket to use a more modern cartridge and use it for another generation seems like it would have been hugely beneficial to a lot of families back in the day. Thanks for the video, Ian!

[@AllAboutSurvival]

Haven't seen this before. Pretty heady cartridge for a rimfire case.

[@ShiceSquad]

I was thinking the same thing myself. It seems like these huge diameter rimfire cartridges would be an accident waiting to happen.

[@KJAkk]

The British used .577 in the Snider conversions.

[@viru52000]

Interesting that such a simple system would have any misfire issues at all. I wonder if that could be contributed to the early cartriges and not the firearm itself.

[@jonathan_60503]

Didn't early rimfire cartridges often have issues with primer coverage? If that was the issue in these trials then the cartridge contributed, but better design (striking more than one spot on the rim) could have mitigated the issue and raised the gun's reliability.

[@prophecy7777]

@@jonathan_60503 I was about to say the same- it could be the cartridge, but still it's more than likely that the same exact cartridge was used in the other trials at the time.

[@fabiovarra3698]

light strokes of the hammer?

[@lairdcummings9092]

@@fabiovarra3698 inconsistent ammo in those early rimfires + light strikes would be my guess.

[@iskandartaib]

​Reminds me of "The Boy Biggles". Before he became an ace fighter pilot he was a boy growing up in India. He got treed (I think it was a feral buffalo) with his rifle and ONE (rimfire) cartridge. He had a misfire. SOP was to remove the cartridge, rotate it a quarter turn and reinsert.

[@martinswiney2192]

This made me think what if the rimfire had become the standard for cartridges. Thinking of a .58 caliber rimfire. Imagine a Ruger 10/58. Same gun just 10 rounds of 58 rimfire in a rotary mag and a huge barrel. Now thats a squirrel gun.

[@MrJest2]

Only if you like "exploding squirrels" 😋

[@M.M.83-U]

4:04 Yes, indeed. A range comparison of some of those would be awesome.

[@michelguevara151]

these old conversions are ingenius, a testament to the times when there was still a strong 'make do and mend' ethos. there was a time that almost nothing was considered a 'throw away item'.

[@RodrigoFernandez-td9uk]

5:22 Au contraire, unsuccessful prototypes are the most interesting. That's why I watch this channel.

[@yt.602]

No such thing as less interesting when it comes to these historic firearms. The ones that fell by the wayside for whatever reason are often more interesting in fact.

[@Joe_Not_A_Fed]

What an ingenious, elegant solution. Thanks for sharing it.

[@cameronmccreary4758]

We could have dropped off a little bit more of the breech-block area; put a magazine in the bottom coming up and underneath and turn it into an automatic rifle, albeit a dirty one.

[@svenjonsson9]

That is an clever and elegantly simple design for a breech block and ejector, really impressive!

[@loupiscanis9449]

Thank you , Ian . 🐺

[@eksbocks9438]

4:03 It really is. I believe the Dreyse Needle Rifle was developed around this time as well. And it was basically the evolutionary link between the Musket and the Bolt Action rifle.

[@stumpythedwarf8712]

I love these videos the most of all your videos. Old guns. All are interesting, but yeah, this is my thing. Thank you Ian, as always.

[@CamoGuy76239]

Huh! Until today, I didn't know there were conversions from muzzleloading to breach loading rimfire cartridges! You once again blew my mind! Thanks!

[@Glurgi]

While the first attempts at something new is often to some degree a failure, they are also more interesting. I think you can see the thought process more clearly in a way, like in this case the rather simple way to lock the mechanism down for the back pressure. It would be interesting to know what kind of tools they used, my guess is a whole lot of files.

[@causewaykayak]

Short & Sweet. That was definitely interesting. A very nice looking and carefully made conversion kit. Probably made a useful 'Pot Gun' At that period in the UK you could have bought something similar over here. Interesting fine machining done in Meriden USA. The UK town of Meriden has similar tradition and provided a home for the wonderful Triumph motor cycle works.

[@acorgiwithacrown467]

That is actually really clever, its such a simple mechanism

[@ondrejzeman3899]

Just missed detail - there is pinned filling piece in hammers head, so the hammer has flat contact face with firing pin. In other conversions was convenient to form the pin the same way as original nipple for percussion cap.

[@MillerSean]

I'm a Miller Brother and I approve this message.

[@ShiceSquad]

A .58 calibre rimfire cartridge must have been a lot of fun.

[@rilesmattix5217]

*fumbles reload* *drops a cartridge*

[@MrJest2]

I wonder if anyone makes them anymore? Modern brass and primer coating with black powder, perhaps?

[@jasonz7788]

Great work Sir thank you

[@edlc6740]

Very simple and clever solution, nice gun to own and shoot.

[@richardanderson2742]

Unlike some rimfire arms of the era, the Miller conversions had a single firing pin and a small one at that. Given the state of rimfire ammo of the period, reliable rimfire mechanisms really benefitted with having duel firing pins, like the Swiss used.

[@NOFUNZONE]

love me trapdoors. (even the bootleg ones)

[@sealove79able]

A great very interesting video and firearm GJ.Have a good one.

[@rob1129]

I knew if I watched this it was going to send me down the rabbit hole of trapdoor conversions videos

[@KickyFut]

I mean, the channel ain't called Well Known & Popular Guns!😁 A very interesting conversion, creatively done.

[@puokki6225]

While they never achieve the level of borderline comical jank that bolt-action to semi-auto conversions do, cartridge conversions of muzzleloaders are always fascinating. You'd think it would have been a lot simpler than it actually turned out to be.

[@philllax1719]

I love the "we have at home" meme titles

[@rorypenstock1763]

That is one clever locking system.

[@korayreyiz3527]

i love we get meme titles now

[@nicklewis7291]

It's very interesting. It took the self contained cartridge from about 1812 when it was invented to get to the 1860s and 70s to where people were using in big numbers. If that type of thing were to happen with today's attitude, there probably wouldn't be conversions at all. That or, the metallic cartridge technically wouldn't have taken so long to spread which would probably result in few if any conversions. Thanks for bringing this history to us, your audience.

[@felixchaus]

As far as I know, there was cartridge guns fairly much with paper cartridges. For modern day the transition would be something like from metallic to a plastic. And since plastic is much weaker it would take time to ameliorate the gun making and conversions would be the way to go as there is just some strenghtening, chamber reaming and different extractor, and you are good to go. So either buy a conversion for 300 or might be working prototype for 3000

[@AndrewAMartin]

In my estimation, it wasn't just attitudes that delayed the adoption of metallic cartridges, but mainly the technology required to manufacture them economically. No military is going to field a weapon that, no matter how superior it is, they can't afford to supply with ammunition.

[@nicklewis7291]

@@AndrewAMartin You do have a point.

[@dannythehonestgamer6051]

While it would not be good enough as a military rifle it is good enough for most hunters at the time. After all whatever animal you are hunting do not shoot back at you in the time it takes to deal with a misfire.

[@stanalbatross8615]

Looks like one of the more reasonable conversions we have taken a look here over the years

[@AKS-74U]

Hopefully you can do a video of the musket conversions that uses the Rolling Block with the musket barrels. Chambered in .58 Roberts

[@The_Modeling_Underdog]

That new breech looks very modern and well machined. The Millers really put some effort into it. Sad they didin't put the same effort on effectively sealing the surfaces once locked. A real pity.

[@danjohnston3422]

I like it. Very slick.

[@aldi404]

The meme video titles are getting better ^^

[@simondudley5969]

Wow , really interesting. What a solution

[@happyhaunter_5546]

That's right, the square hole.

[@kevinsullivan3448]

3% misfire rate doesn't seem outrageous in early black powder metallic cartridges. You could probably mark that up to uneven distribution of priming compound as to light strikes of the firing pin. After all this wasn't a conversion from the Springfield armory, official source of Military weapons. I'm sure there was zero bias.

[@RedXlV]

Especially given that they're rimfire cartridges.

[@BokoDisraeli]

My late step grandfather was from Meriden, would have been cool to share this with him.

[@ftargr]

that action is obviously a Falling Door

[@eksbocks9438]

Pretty smart design.

[@SearTrip]

One of the Miller patents pre-dates Erskine Allin’s trapdoor patent, and I believe they sued the government over it. Not sure of the outcome, but the government testing of the Millers may have been an outgrowth of that.

[@geodkyt]

A 3% misfire rate is better than what I got with Remington Thunderdud, I mean, Thunderbolt, .22LR rimfire ammo in a modern .22 semiauto. 😁

[@TheWozWizard]

For all of you who are into this kind of thing the patent number for this invention is 47,902. By the way Ian, if you are interested in a data base of firearm patents for your archive contact me.

[@michaelnault5905]

Those boys could have gave Erskin Allen a run for it.

[@EdAHull]

I also have a Chabot conversion musket. I would like to compare it with Mark's example.

[@KaDaJxClonE]

I read the video title as: Mack Miller's Musket

[@michaelwhite9199]

Have you ever gotten a hold of the different Hall models? The video on the flintlock rifle hinted at further videos on the type.

[@spider439square8]

I own a musket for home defense, just like the founding fathers intended.

[@Blade_of_Violet_Chaos]

Blows a hole straight through the first ruffian. He's dead on the spot. Then fire my side arm and take out the neighbor's dog because it's smooth bore.

[@Roadk1ll21]

"That's right, the square hole" meme right there XD

[@WingMaster562]

Also the title too,, "The ____ we have at home"

[@GleichUmDieEcke]

This kinda makes me want a custom rifle in this vein but chambered for something ridiculous (for the style of rifle) like .308 or 6.5 Creedmoor.

[@777anarchist]

I find this very similar to the later Pan-Commonwealth bolt action to SL conversion venture. In a way.

[@ss181292]

Locking mechanism looks like it cannot stand powerful cartridge. Wonder if the muzzle energy of this conversion was comparable to original.

[@lewiswestfall2687]

Thanks

[@randymagnum143]

This Era is so interesting. Would love to see a cosmopolitan or gwyn & Campbell!

[@WalkaCrookedLine]

To me it looks like the firing pin passes through the breech block at an odd angle different in direction from the travel of the hammer face. It seems to me this would cause the impact force of the hammer striking to be substantially reduced before getting to the cartridge, which may have contributed to the reliability issue. Unfortunately Ian's film does not give us a good view of the firing pin from the inside of the chamber, which makes difficult to tell exactly how it works.

[@KillrMillr7]

American ingenuity, craftsmanship at it’s finest. We’ve always had a knack for making new and better ways of killing.

[@jensenwilliam5434]

Got to love guns!

[@stefanmolnapor910]

I wish i had that at home!

[@b0rd3n]

Brilliant

[@carolynlanger8383]

Thank you for this well-done segment on the Miller. I grew up in the area so it was especially appreciated. Do you have access, or information, on the Marsh Conversion of Samuel Wilmer Marsh? They seem to be very obscure. The most I have seen regarding the Marsh appears in the book "Misfire: the History of How America's Small Arms Have failed our Military" by William H. Halloran, 1994.

[@brianknight7897]

Please review the new Bond Arms Lever Action AR-15 frame rifle when it becomes commercially available.

[@alexeytoptygin7581]

You didn't mention this in the video, but I wonder if the latch on the trapdoor also acts as an out-of-battery safety? It seems to me in the footage at 1:58 that the hammer overlaps that piece and that if it wasn't seated it might block the hammer from hitting the firing pin?

[@caeserromero3013]

It's Miller time 🤣

[@LadyAnuB]

My first thought about seeing the shape of the conversion was what about gas sealing? I wonder if there could have been a way, using the tools of that time, to obtain a tighter seal on the breech?

[@volentimeh]

I thought the cartridge expansion provided the seal and the breech just stopped it flying out the end.

[@LadyAnuB]

@@volentimeh Yes but it still helps to have a tighter breech seal

[@jacobschuurman5209]

Did they cut or drill out a chamber for the cartridge?

[@crogsmash1611]

I have an old ass breach loader converted into a 10 gauge lol legal where I live because it's an antique

[@misolgit69]

I suppose the valid question was availability and cost of the ammunition

[@Richman0815]

I my opinion the Miller Musket Conversion is one of the better ones an it seems to be relativ safe. But I'm not shure if I would shoot this on a range by myself.

[@PRISMAS76]

I´m very curios about the MAXIM’S PROTOTYPE RECOIL OPERATED RIFLE, do you know anything about this, any available example for a video?

[@JCdental]

nerdd i mean really, you are just taking a stick with one end and giving it another

[@bulukacarlos4751]

Excellent video. The caliber of the musket was 58-60-500? Greetings from Argentine Patagonia.

[@therideneverends1697]

for early cartridge guns they would have the specifications of the cartridge printed on the gun due to the variety of proprietary conversions available. so for example 58-60-500 would mean 58 caliber, 60 grains of powder, 500 grain projectile.

[@bulukacarlos4751]

@@therideneverends1697 Thank you. I am aware of the nomenclature, I am interested in what caliber this particular model is. Greetings from Argentine Patagonia

[@therideneverends1697]

@@bulukacarlos4751 Greetings from California! as for the cartridge in particular, that i do not know.

[@littlehills739]

would have been nice if u drew a pic on the firing pin cant wrap me head around the right angle it turns ?

[@TheCosmicGuy0111]

Nice

[@fidjeenjanrjsnsfh]

What's the arm on the left for? The one with a cutout on the stock.

[@jasonbuck489]

I was not aware this even existed... I consider myself fairly well read and educated on old firearms, I'm not sure how I was not aware of this.... Very Interesting Video!..... Thank you!

[@randominternetguy]

Can we have more like 6p62?

[@pauloakwood9208]

Why keep the ram rod?

[@aristidessalazar9341]

I just discovered most of these rifles were sold to the Mexican republic to fight the French in 1867

[@thomasmolyneaux3700]

This rifle looks in really good shape for the age is it still able or safe to fire?

[@steveschainost7590]

This is my rifle, this is my gun. With I kill *****, with this I have fun.

[@gregabregar4105]

Not great, not terrible. 3,6.

[@jacknelson8601]

Ahhhh yes.........an early morning cup of Java, a hand full of almonds, a diet chocolate bar and thou! What an interesting tid bit of gun porn! Thankyou Sir Ian.

[@rilesmattix5217]

Diet..... chocolate bar?

[@TheArgieH]

​@@rilesmattix5217 On the shelf next to the diabetic chocolate bars.

[@jacknelson8601]

Why yes......yes indeed! Chocolate is on my diet. Just sayin.

[@iskandartaib]

What was it chambered for?

[@saitones]

Will we see you in John Wick 4? I hope so!