Nintendo's backward compatibility Problem... | MVG

[@RyJones]

A friend wrote the emulation layer for Xbox. He wrote an auto patcher. It was a lot of work, but they were able to generate per-game patches for almost all titles. There were 20 or 30 titles not released on physical media in the US, so they sent a Microsoft employee out to second hand stores in Akihabara to find the discs. I don’t remember the pull forward, but it was almost 100%. There are a lot of funny stories there, but that’s another day

[@drueckglueck9918]

a friend of mine, made a xbox 720 it is was more power full than any console, even today. It was ready for 8K. Source trust me bro. But that's another day

[@yellowblanka6058]

@@drueckglueck9918 This person provided specific details, and is posting from an account with personal uploaded content and his picture, not the usual rando with a random avatar posting from an empty account - I'm inclined to believe him.

[@yellowblanka6058]

@@ahoyrobi I would imagine because said consoles released a lot of content that appealed to regional tastes in their home region. The Saturn/Vita had a ton of RPGs, which are incredibly popular in Japan and more niche elsewhere, the X-Box had a ton of FPS/sports titles which tend to do well in the West and so-so elsewhere.

[@JediMB]

​@@yellowblanka6058 Plus, the auto-patching the Xbox 360 did for its backwards compatibility is actually something we've known about since around the time the console released.

[@jakesteel2423]

My uncle works at Bungie...

[@OwtDaftUK]

If it isn't backwards compatable with the orignal switch than that's a huge fail.

[@clydefrosch]

Historically, re-releasing games on the next system is a lot more profitable that backwards compatibility.

[@morriganrenfield8240]

@@clydefrosch if they do it they will have a massive problem in that the other systems ARE. The marketing nightmare that would unfold could break their next system.

[@Linkenfant]

then

[@valrond]

​@@morriganrenfield8240 And all Nintendo handheld were backwards compatible too, at least one generation.Except for the Switch.

[@mexmexican8619]

I’d rather play a powerful new console that’s not dragged down by backward compatibility

[@polar-star64]

I actually think this'll be one point in gaming that if it doesn't include backwards compatibility it'll genuinely be a huge deal. I can see a lot of casual consumers getting very upset if they have to manage two portable consoles. It'd be a huge blunder of Nintendo can't get 99% compatibility working.

[@viridionwaves]

They could certainly get away with it, but it would be a big disappointment for people playing switch games. Imagine bringing that whole library forward... For me, it's a huge reason to upgrade. Without it, I won't upgrade for awhile. I've got plenty of switch titles I'd like to finish first.

[@HUYI1]

@@viridionwaves and they will and fools will continue to keep throwing money at this anti consumer company smh

[@MaxOakland]

Agreed. People are pretty used to backward compatibility these days. It’s not like your phone games need to be repurchased when you buy a new phone. It won’t destroy the Switch 2 but it could stand to lose them some of the people who never bought a Nintendo console before, which Nintendo should want to avoid

[@noahheninger]

If Nintendo was smart, they would make every Nintendo game ever, playable on every Nintendo system going forward via an online store and/or subscription service. It would solve most of their challenges with piracy.

[@bikechan9903]

No, because you'll still buy it to play the same Mario game, the same Kart game, and the same smash game all over again.

[@eformance]

I think it's likely they will build in a compatibility layer. Dynamically recompiling shaders and perhaps an ARM compatibility mode. ARM has a long history of hardware compatibility support.

[@beardalaxy]

I was thinking, if Vita games can be made to run on the Switch what is stopping Switch games running on the Switch 2 with the same method?

[@KarrasBastomi]

I think better solution were they just embed tegra x1 in the new silicon. Tegra X1 is tiny in modern standard. With 5nm or hell 7nm, it would occupy next to nothing. Nintendo can leverage the X1 by using as OS processors in the background to adding support like discord etc.

[@vaibhavdabwalv1]

Skyline is already doing it. It's a compatibility layer with some yuzu code.

[@beardalaxy]

@@vaibhavdabwalv1 oh yeah you're right lol, totally forgot about that.

[@sarowie]

I do not think that CPU compatibility would be a big deal, but the GPU could get really tricky. Modern Vintage Gamer said you can simply swap you graphic cards and update the driver on a computer; no: NVIDIA sometimes has to quirk their drivers for certain games and GPUs to work proper. Smaller games have to do the leg work them self and release patches. That is with an abstraction layer and testing on many GPUs during development; the switch is one plattform. There is no good way to have and test abstraction, so some hardware quirks are just part of the game.

[@cryangallegos]

I was thinking about this just yesterday. It's an absolute deal breaker for me, especially after *so* many Switch releases were basically just up-rezzed WiiU releases.

[@BigSnipp]

So you just won't buy the new Switch or its games?

[@Getlucky12]

@@BigSnipp yeah

[@BigSnipp]

@@Getlucky12 I get that and would feel screwed too, but there's no way I'm skipping BOTW 3 on the Switch Pro.

[@Getlucky12]

@@BigSnipp ok

[@rj_4mp100]

There are more Switch exclusives than Wii U ports. I’m constantly surprised seeing this opinion thrown around in 2023, it was only true in 2018 lol. Did yall just sell your Switches in 2018 or smtg?

[@TrinhNguyen-85]

The switch 2 or whatever not only needs to have backwards compatibility but also improves the resolution and framerates of previous generation games. It would be a disappointment if this doesn’t happen

[@DidoInFlames]

100 % agree

[@undergroundhiphopfan6335]

They don't necessarily. It's only quite a limited market that would care about that.

[@flameshana9]

Millions of Pokemon fans: Nah fam, 13 fps is good enough for me!

[@flameshana9]

Millions of Pokemon fans: Nah fam, 13 fps is good enough for me!

[@HaplessIdiot]

Good luck they are probably gonna go with amd chip so nothing is going to be automatically backwards compatible

[@LoneWolf1985BK]

Really hoping Nintendo does backwards compatibility. That was a huge selling point when I bought my series X.

[@briandadude]

Well yeah there's like 5 Xbox Series exclusive games.

[@rommelbonsun2665]

Edit: Wish the Xbox S/X doesn't have huge DRM or some games require internet connection to play Xbox one games on Xbox series S/X especially the digital primary owned games, even though the game was design to be play offline. Native Xbox series game's works offline without update or internet test. Imagine if the server went down and backwards compatible no longer works. They did update the Xbox series X so that backwards compatible doesn't need internet check but mainly working on physical but not all Xbox one games work offline.

[@jimmyjay689]

Why? U talking about OG xbox and 360?

[@princessscotchtape8931]

​@@briandadude Correction: 0 as they all come to PC anyways.

[@blendpinexus1416]

bruh, your series x can run all the way back to the og box. you got 4 generations of xbox right there (tempted to buy a series s for reasons)

[@HalfpennyTerwilliger]

I'm just one customer but backward compatibility is critical for me. It took 4 years of Switch games release to convince me to buy one. A backward compatible follow up would be an early purchase for me, followed by an ongoing software attachment. A non backward compatible system would have me explore my backlog and waiting for the new catalog to convince me if ever. Since I also own a PS5 and an XSX, I have options anyway.

[@MRTOWELRACK]

Backwards compatibility is my number one priority. I don't have the Switch yet because I got the PS5 but I have plenty of friends and family with Switches, so I've been waiting for the Switch 2.

[@skycloud4802]

Backwards compatibility is essentially going to decide whether I get the next Nintendo or not. I've been tempted to get the Steam Deck for a long time now.

[@applehazeva2739]

@@skycloud4802 as someone with an functioning brain and alot of knowledge and deep dive behind Nintendo's shady buisness, Get the Deck. Hell you can play Xbox, Playstation and PC Games while you at it

[@samgee500]

I'm waiting to even buy a Switch for this very reason. I don't want to get stuck with 30fps 480p if I don't have to.

[@jilp2002]

​​@@samgee500 shut up

[@2handsome398]

I'm gonna take a wild guess in that they'll go with a compatibility layer similar to the Wii U running Wii games, with the games running on a tweaked version of the Wii's OS and the hardware limiting itself in that mode with likely some API wrappers. It worked really well at the time with only a tiny handful of games having issues. As far as the cartridges go, they could do something similar with what they did with the 3ds.

[@cryangallegos]

That's what I am hoping for. The Wii mode on the WiiU was pretty cool, and we still use it

[@stuartmcallister3341]

It wasn't so much a compatibility layer, as the system had to reboot into that environment. A kind of multi-booting that computers have. Even the 3DS did this with DS/i and GBA titles, though that at least could list the titles within the 3DS OS.

[@2handsome398]

@@stuartmcallister3341 Good point, and ya it would be nice to have the ability to see your games within the main OS. In both cases it works quite well for the sake of compatibility.

[@toxithot]

similarly, the initial wii consoles would do the same with gamecube titles.

[@Matt__B]

The Wii U is a hardware solution. They designed the Wii U CPU and GPU so that it had those of the Wii built into them in a fashion that allowed them to re-use most of the common architecture. It's so good that you can even put the vWii into backwards compatibility with the GameCube with the aid of hacks, and almost every game will work on it. I don't think we'll see the likes of it again though, as it was an expensive exercise that didn't really help the Wii U in sales much. I'd think it far more likely that they'll do it in software, either with game-level patches - with the onus being on the developers to provide them - or virtualization and automated shader recompilation.

[@desertdude540]

Another option would be to create a decompiler for precompiled shaders and automatically recompile them for the new architecture. For cartridge games, this could be done the first time the game is played and the results could be cached in on-board flash storage.

[@manoelBneto]

The GPU binary problem also applies to PS4-on-PS5 and XboxOne-on-XboxSeries, as the GPU architectures are vastly different. Both consoles solved it by using modified GPUs with extra BC modes and it's entirely possible for NVidia to offer similar modifications for their next Nintendo SOC. The issue of the drivers being included in the games is fixable by including replacements in the new console firmware and hot-swapping when loading a BC game, which is how PS4 games (which use a different graphics API) work on PS5. This time around Nintendo won't be able to slap an underclocked off-the-shelf Nvidia SOC and call it a day: none of Nvidia's SOCs after the X2 seem to be "tablet-ready" and the bigger focus on AI components means it will likely need to be more customized than the X1 was. Nvidia itself is also probably more on top of this since after the Switch's success this is their sole foothold on the console industry.

[@beardalaxy]

There were a lot of fun tricks going in between the GB and the GBC so I don't see why other fun tricks can't be done with the Switch and Switch 2 :)

[@manoelBneto]

@@beardalaxy There's DS (and GBA) on the 3DS as well.

[@gustavrsh]

It would be cool if Nintendo went the AMD APU route

[@c4sualcycl0ps48]

Not to mention Nvidia tried to outright buy ARM a few years back. Nvidia probably would rather pull an Apple and develop an ARM SoC fully in-house instead of tacking their GPU tech onto a licensed ARM design

[@clebbington]

@@gustavrsh I doubt they will - ARM (on a modern process node, that is) is still more power efficient than AMD's mobile APUs, and I doubt they'd change the architecture if they want to have any shot at backwards compatibility at product launch

[@keyboard_g]

I wouldn't expect emulation. Translation like DXVK probably would work, but I fully expect Nintendo to put the work on the developers to recompile and resubmit games.

[@faustianblur1798]

DXVK simply implements the D3D API in terms of the Vulkan API. It sits between the game and the driver translating graphics calls. On Switch the driver is compiled into the game, there's no way to put anything between them.

[@faustianblur1798]

@@WhiteG60 That obviously wouldn't be at the driver level then. The hardware is reading command buffers produced by the driver. This would class as low level emulation instead, and would be a lot less simple. This whole discussion misses the more pressing point that DXVK (or command buffer translation) would not translate the pre-compiled shaders used on Switch. On PC Vulkan can compile and run the same shader code as DX12, but an Ampere or Lovelace GPU can't run shaders already compiled for Maxwell.

[@faustianblur1798]

@@WhiteG60 what you're suggesting isn't getting between the game and the driver. It's getting between the driver and hardware. On Switch the driver is compiled into the game, it's not a separate library being linked at run time, it's not a part of the OS. There is no longer a distinction between the game and the driver. Thus there's no way to get between them.

[@MrSlowestD16]

@@faustianblur1798 IDK much about the driver architecture in Horizon OS or whatever Switch's OS is called, but it's likely the case that MVG saying "the driver is bundled into the game" is an oversimplification. Generally graphics drivers are divided up into a kernel module and a user mode driver library. It is likely the case that the user mode driver is the only thing that is bundled with the game. I would be quite surprised if it's hot swapping kernel modules with every game launch. The kernel module is necessary for address patching into kernel space (references to buffers), semaphores for command buffer timing, etc. It is very unlikely they allow a publisher developed game to monkey around in kernel space with that kind of power. So that being said, it is most likely very feasible to put a low level emulation shim between the driver & the game to do necessary command translations on the fly. The problem I see comes with what you referenced earlier, the compiled shaders. There may be some way to do a recompiled and optimized translation like that on the fly but I have no idea how that would work, I don't think it's possible on the fly on something that low powered. And yeah, agreed that you likely can't just re-use them. So yeah, it certainly wouldn't be like DXVK, but they should be able to do something of the sort there, but IDK how they'd handle shaders at all., and I certainly don't think they'll cough up the tough for a TX1 order. I don't think they'd completely kill back compat, I think it'd piss a lot of people off at this time, so not really sure what their options are all things considered.

[@zultriova89]

From what i heard, Nintendo ask developer to make their game 4K ready ( more likely upscaling) for the future..

[@billcook4768]

Love the technical talk. I don’t understand most of it, but it’s fun to listen to.

[@shitoryu8]

Same

[@SamuraiPixelCats]

I kindof agree that not having backward compatibility won't hurt Nintendo in the long run, but I think including it will help with early hardware adoption. Personally if I know the next console will still play my existing games I'll go ahead and spring for it early on since there's already an established library. If not then I would probably wait a couple years for the new library to fill up before springing the money for a brand new console.

[@edwinvargas7969]

I personally think this, plus making specific titles BC, would be their business-preferred option. They literally dont need a new switch, but just to give a refresh with enhanced graphics for the smaller portion of the fanbase that really wants it, while new software piles up, which will slowly induce the rest of the base to switch over. And they can keep doing this every 5 years or so, so that the switch remains cheap too.

[@viridionwaves]

Exactly. I'm in this same boat. It'd be a shame if it wasn't backwards compatible considering the huge switch library. People will still buy it if it's not, but I won't buy it for a few years if it's not. I've still got switch games to finish. If it is though, I wouldn't mind getting one around release. One of the things that made their older handhelds so useful and popular was the backwards compatibility and access to older titles.

[@VariantAEC]

NES was the origin for Nintendo's console market... SNES wasn't BC. N64 wasn't BC. GameCube wasn't BC. Wii was with GC only. Wii U was BC with Wii and GC (iIrc). Switch isn't BC. Could Switch 2 (or whatever Nintendo decides to call Switch's successor) have BC? Find out, sometime in the undisclosed future! (GameBoy Pocket through the Nintendo DS were all BC with the OG GameBoy through GBA while N3DS had BC with NDS software so BC is only a problem for Nintendo when it comes to home consoles for some reason.)

[@edgaracosta9976]

But the thing is your average consumer isn’t stopping from purchasing the new console just for not having BC. Nintendo is a games company more than a technology company. Maybe this was different during their NES/SNES/N64 days, but what drives sales is an innovative console gimmick with your new Marios, zeldas, and all other games that help sell the system

[@VariantAEC]

@@edgaracosta9976 To drive home that fact point the nay-sayers to The Nintendo Switch's sales!

[@MKfelidae]

Nvidia could also include a binary translation layer in the updated SOC's driver. They have in the past done similar things between GPU architectures to optimize games for specific architectures

[@seeibe]

Ah yeah, back when Nvidia actually was a company targeting gamers. Somehow I feel like a big reason the new Switch is taking so long is that Nvidia is expecting Nintendo to pay PC gamer kind of pricing, and Nintendo won't have it.

[@vanillawaluigi7650]

Nintendo hasn't ordered any Tegra X1 since their last order of 30 million in mid-late 2021, since Nvidia stopped producing the X1. Its highly unlikely to see a hardware based back-compat implementation unless Nvidia has a translation layer created to convert Tegra X1 calls into the new chip.

[@Noxer77]

Id bet money that it will run through a translation layer that or no backwards compatibility at all lmao

[@joesterling4299]

Which is a possibility MVG didn't cover in detail. The new hardware could be made to have a mode that mimics the old; and in this case, it would be money and design time well spent.

[@Draggobuttboi]

Isn't that what the wii u did? If I recall it had a tri core powerpc cpu and when running original wii content it would reboot into a different mode closer to the wii

[@Beavernator]

​@@Draggobuttboi That's also why you could spoof it to run GameCube games... Friggin love my Wii U...

[@isaiahkern9434]

@@Draggobuttboi wiiu is a bit different. To give comparison I'll use the 3ds. The 3ds uses two processors, arm 9 and arm 11. Arm 9 is responsible for backwards compatibility. However what's responsible for output, attached to the main 3ds display. Is actually arm 11. As the 3ds technically has a capture card built in, specifically due to this issue. In other words, arm11 actually taps into arm9 data lines responsible for video output. The wiiu, has 3 pieces. the powerpc CPU. And two "gpus", aka what'll just call gx1 and gx2. When the wiiu goes into wii mode, it clocks down the cpu, and turns off the multiple cores present, down to one. And then reboots, shutting off gx2 entirely, and using gx1. (There's a specific chip designed to act as a video interface, that interacts with gx1, before being pushed to the hdmi or component/composite cables)

[@xAfroMetalHead1990x]

I laughed out loud when you said they may just overclock the Tegra X1😂

[@heisenbergwhite00]

It's Nintendo, you never know, they might just actually do that, they literally did that from the Gamecube to the Wii, the Wii was just little an overclocked Gamecube, so I wouldn't discount as an option that Nintendo might be considering. Which would be a joke for sure lol

[@Matanumi]

Yeah but then the system would be something else. Like folding screens or two screen system

[@estignatic]

@@heisenbergwhite00 Isn't the Wii U a super overclocked GCN?

[@heisenbergwhite00]

@@estignatic i don't think the Wii U was a GCN, I think the Wii U was actually totally different than the GC and the Wii

[@estignatic]

@@heisenbergwhite00 I thought they were similar since the Wii U could play both Wii and GCN (hacked) perfectly. They are all PowerPC based.

[@glitchy_weasel]

I definitely hope Nintendo and Nvidia figure something out; given how manny good Switch games are there, back. comp. would be a way to get newer fans to play those - unless of course, Nintendo would consider more profitable to re-release them instead lol

[@Matanumi]

It was a solid excuse for the break off for the Wii U 3DS error to switch. They can't pull that shit off again without massive controversy

[@Matt_Duke]

It would be an insane never ending controversy, every other platform offers back compat. I doubt people would accept that when it's feature normalized on the entire rest of the market.

[@Bob_Smith19]

People will buy regardless of comparability. The average consumer does not watch this channel. As long as they have IP like Mario and Zelda people will buy their product.

[@lordmuaddib]

@@Matanumi eh, i would argue the wii u hw is quite capable, what took the console down was the stupid pad no one liked. and the games gave a clunky experience when paired with that. both consumers and developers quickly went away. but there are great games nonetheless. almost all were then ported to switch

[@jimmyjay689]

The Nintendo way...smdh

[@godribbon]

I think there's a disparity between how much people play old games on new hardware, vs how much they want the option. IIRC it was Sony who talked about that market research and I think it was a way of dismissing Xbox's achievements, but just because I'm not constantly playing Xbox 360 games on my Xbox Series X, doesn't mean that I don't want an easy way to do so when it suits me. Backwards compatibility is a huge deal for game preservation, and as the medium matures I think it's absolutely essential.

[@b_e_p_i_s_m_a_n6212]

As others have pointed out, some sort of API translation layer a la DXVK would probably be a solid option. Maybe Nintendo could also go the way of Microsoft and opt for something similar to their Smart Delivery, with older Switch games getting some form of performance boost. The translation layer could act as a sort of fallback if the game hasn't been patched for the newer hardware.

[@qlum]

The problem is not the API but rather the compiled shaders / gpu drivers. They will probably update the API but making that backwards compatible isn't really the issue.

[@crimson-foxtwitch2581]

I think it’s also worth noting that not all of the hardware needs to be pure software emulated thanks to ARM64: the PSP’s PS1 emulator only emulates the GPU components and runs CPU instructions as native code.

[@xBINARYGODx]

@@crimson-foxtwitch2581 sure, but that doesn't mean it works just like the switch - Tegra1 is just some arm stuff the same as your phone, and tegra 2 is noticeably different. A lot of the issues is with the gpu bits on top of that.

[@Sephiel263]

Thing is, they HAVE TO make it work if they want the system to sell because there's no way anyone can make the legal nightmare for Smash work again.

[@leeartlee915]

Nintendo doesn’t care about that. They really, really don’t.

[@leeartlee915]

@@Scarabola So were plenty of people who bought Gamecube’s… and Wii’s… and Wii U’s. Nintendo still doesn’t care if you can’t play it on their new hardware.

[@wanderingwobb6300]

Of all reasons this is the hill you're going to die on? As if smash hasn't had 5 different releases up to this point?

[@Parker--]

They have to because of Smash and it's potential licensing issues? lol. Adorable. Hell, Smash might be the perfect reason to not have BC that way they can sell you the game again.

[@barcster2003]

​@Leeartlee they got away with that a bit becuase of the form factor changes

[@OGGIdris]

Imagine you bought most of the first party titles on the Wii U, then rebought them on the switch. and then with the new consoles you gotta buy the games again.

[@Aki_Lesbrinco]

Well, you don't have to buy them again. No one is holding a gun to your head. If you played those games on Wii U and then on Switch again, do you really need to play them again on different hardware?

[@skycloud4802]

@@Aki_Lesbrinco that's not the point though is it? It's pretty scummy corporate behaviour and I don't condone that.

[@nodzee97]

Just pirate at that point

[@KaitouKaiju]

Pirating games you already own is morally correct

[@allenbocephus]

@@KaitouKaiju It's not pirating if you already own them...

[@jordicoma]

There is another solution, a automate proces to recompile the shaders for every game. This is possible, as its currently the way that the emulators work. It reads the precompiled shaders and then it recompiles for the host graphic card. Then the rest it should be easy.

[@jja2000]

Yep! The video talks about the UDA architecture when it comes to gpu drivers but forgets to mention that pc games like Forza Horizon 5 and Borderlands 3 (those are the ones that I can name from the top of my head) have Shader Compilation after every driver update. If I had to guess this will be a fallback option for games that haven't had an "Official" patch yet, a bit like how Xbox Series consoles did the Xbox One console backward compat.

[@Vitreia]

Reticulating splines, but this time for real!

[@skatcat743]

Nintendo could get these precomputed and distribute along with update data.

[@francoisdb6924]

@@Vitreia SC2000 get out of this body :)

[@kosmosyche]

Basically, this is mostly a software problem that can be easily solved if there is a will from Nintendo. Legacy modes for older software and hardware are not exactly unheard of.

[@beebot]

An auto-patching layer would be fairly trivial to implement I'd imagine (into the new OS), with full library compatibility released in steps. But I also wouldn't be surprised if they forced a login/stream option to prevent piracy which they are currently pretty salty about.

[@beardalaxy]

It's only a matter of time before the Switch 2 gets pwnd and it hasn't even been announced yet lol. I think the reason people haven't been as dead set on looking for a software hack for the newer Switch models is because it's much easier to obtain an OG one and if you're really looking for a new one like an OLED then the hardware hack is perfectly fine. When the Switch 2 comes out, people are gonna be firing on all cylinders to get that think cracked.

[@sarowie]

I can imagine that some games for some specific reason in certain areas get strange visual glitches (that can be game breaking). Getting to 99% compatibility is a thing; but even Switch Online N64 emulation is not perfect (and we know that nintendo applies some runtime patches to some specific games to workaround certain issues).

[@admonius9668]

To be fair, backwards compatibility has always been a thing. I remember watching a video about the SNES where parents were upset they couldn’t use NES games on the new console

[@gokublack8342]

Lack of backwards compatibility is what made me sail the high seas in the first place

[@human_brian]

I think a standardized translation layer wouldn't be too horribly difficult in this case. Translate the GPU and CPU calls on the fly to the new hardware. We're talking ARM64 > ARM64 and Nvidia to Nvidia hardware. They aren't that much different in how they accept and process the data. There will be issues with some titles but those can be resolved with title specific patches.

[@Intelligenz_Bestie]

EXACTLY i do not understand MVG's point here at all, how does he thnk the ps5 did backcompat with ps4 ? RDNA isn't GCN

[@ItDaBiz]

Assuming the new console will even be ARM/Nvidia based. They could easily go for RDNA2 instead, seems to be the most popular chipset out atm and we know Nintendo prefer proven hardware.

[@faustianblur1798]

@@Intelligenz_Bestie AMD has stated that RDNA has full support for the GCN instruction set. Meaning shaders and command buffers compiled for a GCN GPU will run natively on an RDNA one. That is not normal practice and none of Nvidia's architectures are backwards compatible like that.

[@0x1D3A]

@@faustianblur1798 Maybe Nvidia and Nintendo are planning new architecture that is compatible with Maxwell

[@faustianblur1798]

@@0x1D3A That would be ridiculously expensive. Hence why AMD made _all_ their RDNA line backward compatible even though they only needed it for the consoles. If Sony and Microsoft didn't account for such a huge volume of their chip production it wouldn't be there. Nvidia have much more profitable markets than Nintendo consoles, they really don't need to take that sort of hit to make Switch users happy.

[@larrs8887]

I play so many ps4 games on the ps5 and really enjoy the improved performance of many titles, to be honest for indie and lesser end games I prefer the ps4 version over the native 5 as there are no really improvements aside from file size compression and load times. My entire ps4 library lives on an external drive and I keep the internal ps5 ssd for the new more graphically intense games. I like the direction of travel for a gen free future, you have the platform and all games work regardless of the era, like with PC. I really hope Nintendo also embrace this approach as well as I’d love to still play og switch games in the future. One concern I have about switch hardware is that you need a working battery for the console to boot, even when plugged in. I’m concerned that when the battery dies the console won’t boot. Some mods are being developed to get around this but it’s a little worrying for the long term.

[@VariantAEC]

Gens still exist but nothing gets left behind... like how PS used to do things up until PS3's mid-lifecycle crisis. PS4 BC on PS5 is a return to form for PS.

[@iseptimus]

If they don't provide back compat, Switch 2 is dead to me, actually Nintendo is. I've invested too much (physical games especially) into the Switch for it not to work on the NG version. Adding Tegra hardware for BC is pointless, why would I want to pay for new hardware when my back catalogue runs as crappily as it does now?

[@xtr.7662]

well because they wont upgrade every game even if they can you wont get 60fps patches like on the xbox only for special games most will only have more stability and higher dynamic res anyways

[@lpnp9477]

Best to emulate them. You can play Zelda and Pokemon and everything else at 60fps with patches. I'm finally getting around to playing last year's Kirby game since I found the 60fps patch.

[@RETR0_P0CKET]

You completely overlooked the most likely solution, translation. They can develop a software translation layer for the new hardware. Since the two SoCs are so similar a translation layer should be very efficient compared to emulation. They are also using graphics APIs derived from the same ones used on Switch so I’m sure that continuity will add to efficiencies in translation. What am I missing? NVida and Nintendo will make this work. The future of Nintendo depends on it.

[@soviut303]

While I don't disagree that backwards compatibility via a translation layer would be good, Nintendo's future has never depended on backwards compatibility.

[@RETR0_P0CKET]

@@soviut303IMO it’s not something they can afford to overlook with so much riding on Switch 2. They only have one platform now. It’s certainly possible the Switch 2 could be a massive success without it, but that would be an incredibly stupid risk to take for no reason.

[@soviut303]

@@RETR0_P0CKET What's riding on Switch 2 that wasn't riding on their other consoles that weren't backwards compatible? For example, I can't plug a GBA game into my DS, nor is any of the software compatible.

[@RETR0_P0CKET]

@@soviut303 The stakes are higher because they only have one platform. When Wii U failed they leaned on 3DS. They’ve always leaned on their handhelds. That’s the difference IMO.

[@soviut303]

@@RETR0_P0CKET Perhaps, but there's no saying the next console will even be anything like the Switch. The switch may become their new handheld while they experiment with something completely different. Besides, they've got massive war chests built up from the record setting sales of the Switch and their first party software that's bolstered further by their online service.

[@MalibuRacer102]

No back compat is a great way to piss off 120+MILLION Switch owners! Can’t see Nintendo doing that.

[@Saz103]

I also want to say that the fact nintendo are still announcing dlc and season passes to existing software and are releasing tears of the kingdom on the og switch should show that they are at least aware that we can have some accsess to these titles on the next console.

[@iseptimus]

Nah, they'll just sweat the Switch for 2 years after the NG release. I hope it isn't the case, but Nintendo hate their users and only want to rinse them.

[@prodyg]

that doesnt say anything

[@barcster2003]

Yeah it would suggest that since they are releasing all of this stuff they would at least think of keeping it backwards compatible.

[@lpnp9477]

They continued to release 3ds software even after the release of the switch with no backward compatibility so I'm not so sure. This is Nintendo were talking about. They don't do 'consumer friendly'

[@prodyg]

@@lpnp9477 this is exactly my point

[@strsocerplaya9]

I'm not getting the next system if it's not backwards compatible tho...we have 5 switches, one for each of us, and a ton of games. And we're happy enough with these.

[@AZ-74]

the dock could be one big switch cartridge adapter

[@VSMOKE1]

That would be pretty cool imagine that you can insert your cartridge into the dock and install your game onto the switch digitally

[@skycloud4802]

@@VSMOKE1 very interesting idea.

[@ItsKevRA]

MVG out here spittin’ out more great content that I somewhat understand.

[@TomaszKucza]

He doesn't understand it either and is talking bullshit to get more views. It is a non-issue.

[@ItsKevRA]

@@TomaszKucza Okay, random guy in the comments. I totally believe you. 100%

[@ItsKevRA]

@@TomaszKucza Hmmm, who should I believe. The game developer who made a 12 minute video going over the problems thoroughly, or some random guy in the comments who’s educated response is “this is bullshit.” …. Hard to believe, but imma go with MVG on this one.

[@HenrikoMagnifico]

The biggest reason I don't think they'll do backwards compatibility with the Switch is market saturation- there are already Zelda, Mario, Mario Kart, Pokémon and many more games on Switch. Keeping backwards compatibility could be one more reason for people who bought the new model to *not* buy the new exclusive games, such as Mario Kart 9 (whenever that comes out) or the next mainline 3D mario game, Pokémon games etc.

[@barcster2003]

I think its a mistake to not have backwards compatibility.

[@ThatGamingGuyfromthe70s]

PS3 to PS4 , no backwards compatibility, 117million PS4 consoles sold. BC is not a given.

[@Dairunt1]

While you're correct, it's still not a good competition. The PS4 had its generation handed to it because of the Xbox One's and Wii U's disastrous marketing. Xbox One didn't have BC as well. However, both PS5 and XS have BC solutions, and Nintendo would be several steps back in that regard. Even if there's no native support and games have to be updated manually, I hope they're free upgrades like PS4 to PS5.

[@Saz103]

Yeah but the ps3 did not sell that well, the switch is nintendos best selling console it would be extremely stupid to not add bc.

[@OrtadragoonX]

@@Saz103 It sold around 84 million units. Financially it was a flop (stupid high R&D and high manufacturing costs) but it sold reasonably well and actually outsold the Xbox 360 worldwide.

[@Nexus9_KD6-4.8]

I'll make it simple for them. It's backwards compatibility with my vast library that I've accumulated or no buy.

[@AndrewJamesDaniel]

I love speculating about gaming hardware and what I expect from Nintendo is a surprise - they rarely follow any standard industry pattern, or even their own patters. They will doe something strange and unusual with their hardware, and that makes it all the more interesting

[@flameshana9]

Interesting and frustrating.

[@allenbocephus]

and obnoxious...

[@MrMark1]

Be very interesting to see what they do next. Just hope it's not all digital

[@Nobbie248]

I wont be buying it if its all digital thats my only issue

[@SlartiMarvinbartfast]

If they cease to produce physical media I'll not be buying the console. The customer should have control of what they own, not the developer/distributor/publisher. I hate the way that digital media takes the ownership away from the customer (and yes, I know even physical media is a 'licence to play' but you know what I mean). Digital only games can be removed or disabled at the flick of a switch and that's incredibly anti-consumer.

[@Dave102693]

That’s the cheapest option though lol

[@Mintcar923]

I’m don’t think all digital would be a good idea even tho most things are nowadays.. No one bats an eye with Steam tho interestingly.. I’m sure big N has the power to implement both physical & backwards compatibility like they’ve almost always done so everyone would be happy

[@Dustin34]

​@@Mintcar923because steam games are always supported no matter your pc since "PC2" isnt a possinle comcept

[@Neil_Hanson]

This is Nintendo we're taking about here. I fully expect no back-compat, and full price ports of certain games.

[@ThomastheDankEngine8900]

Maybe even subscription only backwards compatibility like how they do for retro games

[@АлександрТерехов-ж3й]

​@@ThomastheDankEngine8900 almost all handhelds from Nintendo except the switch were backwards compatible

[@hanro50]

The compatibility break between the switch and WiiU made sense. Totally different pieces of hardware and architecture. Between the Switch and whatever comes next I would say there is less of an excuse. Unless Nintendo is planning to swap CPU architectures again, most games should be compatible. The only outliers would be games that bypass the graphics API and talked to the GPU directly. Although in these cases you could probably use an emulation layer to circumvent this. Other then that I would expect Nintendo has something planned to slow down emulation devs from emulating the next generation of Switch...

[@Tephnos]

Couldn't Nvidia just give Nintendo access to depreciated Maxwell shaders on a custom chip and then there would be unlikely to be any issues with BC?

[@callumsparrow4379]

The most probable scenario in my mind what’ll happen is that Nintendo will offer two variants of the Post-Switch console: a more expensive version that’s backwards-compatible with physical Switch titles and a less pricier option with no physical backwards compatibility.

[@MrNachoChannel]

I would not be against this but I don't think it would happen. I just want backwards compatibility on all devices moving forward. We should have the technology to plan this stuff out but we don't, and then we shoot ourselves in the foot later trying to make it work.

[@Saz103]

I mean its still gonna use a cartridge because its handheld, I imagine they could just use the same cartridge slot like the 3ds but the access to games will be limited to 1st party and 3rd party developers.

[@hikkamorii]

@@Saz103 or they could be all digital. I don't like this future, but it makes a lot of sense for publishers.

[@skycloud4802]

Interesting idea. Sony had kind of done something similar to this with the PlayStation 3. Having the launch console very pricey but very versatile, with backwards compatibility, extra USB, and even a SD card slot I think? The models afterwards were much cheaper, but too many things were getting cut out which I didn't like, such as the PS2 compatibility. I think Nintendo has also done a similar approach, keeping backwards compatibility at launch before cutting it down the road once the current portables success is established. Like the DSi cutting the GBA slot I think, and the Gameboy Advance Micro not being able to play Gameboy games if I remember correctly.

[@nodzee97]

Sounds like a marketing disaster

[@e2rqey]

I expect the Switch 2 to be wayyy more locked down than the OG Switch. That being said, I'd be shocked if they actually managed to address software piracy and homebrew to a level that would really stop it or significantly reduce it.

[@vaibhavdabwalv1]

It's a tablet from 2014. Even the steamdeck can do it. But then it's Nintendo a company known for not having the best consumer friendly practices

[@latt.qcd9221]

Being able to play my entire Switch library at better framerate and updated visuals so they're at least as good as the PS4 is the main reason I'd want to upgrade. I'm interested in buying my entire library again. Not to mention, a large portion of my library are special, limited edition ports of games that won't be getting a second port on new hardware.

[@viridionwaves]

I think you mean "not interested"

[@railerswim]

10:29 If the rumor is true that Nvidia stopped producing wafers for the tegra x1, then overclocking while can be done is not going to be the route Nintendo takes. It's totally plausible that switch production is going to dry up and a new SoC is going to happen whether Nintendo likes it or not

[@chemergency]

Similar thing factored into the Xbox 360's release being fast-tracked to 2005, since Nvidia declined to continue supplying the video chip for the original Xbox and Microsoft simply wasn't going to be able to produce anymore original Xbox units, which is also why Microsoft has since-severed ties with Nvidia for all their future Xbox hardware.

[@VariantAEC]

@@chemergency Your story is at least plausible. PlayStation and Xbox used Nvidia and if Nvidia forced everyone to move on possibly breaking terms, it would make sense that other manufacturers would go elsewhere. AMD might be nicer to their partners than Nvidia.

[@SalivatingSteve]

@@VariantAEC AMD is definitely way nicer to their partners than Nvidia.

[@FoxbatStargazer]

Is there a reason a wrapper/translation layer can’t handle this? They don’t need to actually run the NSO drivers, just re-interpret calls based on identifying the NSO version from a known list? Shaders can still be extracted too if the format is standardized?

[@Dairunt1]

Even if we're talking about GPU emulation and enable a "hybrid" solution doesn't sound so bad; the base Switch handled GPU emulation like a charm with Mario 3D All-Stars. Wii games ran flawlessly even though only part of the game was re-compiled.

[@japzone]

Yeah, if Apple could find a way to get x86 software to run on their new ARM SoC, I find it unlikely that Nintendo couldn't pull off a similar feat with two ARM SoCs. Obviously this could lead to a performance hit, but as long as they can at least match the native Switch performance then it should be fine for most people. Shaders and Binaries could also be re-compiled on first launch, or Nintendo could compile themselves and have the Switch 2 download the shaders and binaries when a Switch game is inserted/downloaded. There's a lot of theoretical ways to do this, especially when both SoCs are known quantities.

[@MK73DS]

Shaders need to be recompiled on the fly, which will introduce stutters. The problem is not the CPU, the instructions, it's the GPU and shaders. This is also where all emulators struggle the most. Projects like Skyline do just that, they run the CPU code natively on Android because it's the same architecture, but GPU is really what's limiting them for now (they're doing great progress each day however)

[@kamilciura7953]

​@@MK73DS Thing with shaders is that you can pre-compile them. It is a viable option when it comes to emulation and what some developers use on PC (although ALL of them should provide it), when you are launching the game for a first time. There is also a case of Steam Deck - there's only one configuration to worry about and Steam OS is delivering pre-cached shaders generated using Fossilize toolset. You are downloading them with the game. Steam has also allowed sharing pre-cached shaders between Linux users for a long time now.

[@MK73DS]

@@kamilciura7953 Did you watch the video? Shaders don't work the same way between PC games and Nintendo Switch games. Talk to any Switch emulator developer, they'll tell you you can't extract all shaders from a game and precompile them. This has to be done on the fly. Of course, you can cache them, but they have to be compiled once, and you'll experience stutters the first time. Sharing shaders would require a ton of work from Nintendo to precompile them all, and there's some legal issue sharing them too since they contain proprietary code.

[@mrhobs]

Thank you, I’ve been waiting for this video. I appreciate your thorough analysis!

[@jimechols4347]

They've had this ability for a while now. It's called a graphics API wrapper. Kind of like what they did with Windows 98 voodoo fx glide to work with Windows 10.

[@circuit10]

As he said the GPU driver is statically linked into the game so replacing it would be difficult

[@clebbington]

​@@circuit10 Nah, they could still do it with a wrapper. It would intercept API/library calls and replace them with patched ones. They could write a translation layer to interpret the compiled shaders/drivers, or even distribute replacements/patches/etc through the eShop

[@circuit10]

@@clebbington They could still do it but it would be a bit of a hack since they’d have to hook into the calls to the original driver and replace them, which would be a bit harder

[@MattBeaver]

Nvidia could have a NVN to NVN2 intermediary stub just for this purpose, it would handle translating calls from NVN to NVN2.

[@deus_nsf]

exactly, just like what Proton does with DXVK (but more complex I guess).

[@guspaz]

The trick is that NVN and the rest of the GPU driver stack is statically linked into the game's executable, but that's not an insurmountable problem.

[@MattBeaver]

@@deus_nsf Exactly what I was thinking. They can run a stub before the main executable and dynamically relink the NVN functions to NVN2 using their associated mappings. I would say this is similar to what TheFlow did with PSV and Android games.

[@johnsimon8457]

@@guspaz is it possible that a developer would modify the driver themselves to get additional performance or work around bugs - thus breaking this “Patch the driver” strategy unusable?

[@chinodigitalbath]

Thanks for your thoughts and opinion, very competent...as always! Personally, if Nintendo doesn't make the current switch library (or at least the ones that sold well so far) compatible in some way, I will "boycott" buying the new "Switch 2"...this would be a real problem and cost Nintendo quite much customers I guess...maybe this move would even turn out more expensive in the end, due to the loss of customers, instead of patching the games up, in order to make them compatible for the next switch model.

[@leeartlee915]

This is just silly.

[@chinodigitalbath]

@@leeartlee915 Please be so kind and let me know what you think about the issue and what you consider to be silly. 😀

[@tanos857]

Fingers crossed to migrate our games to the new hardware. Also a better eShop. 😮‍💨

[@cedwardsmedia]

The greatest disappointment I ever found in Nintendo was their discontinuation and end of support for the 3DS. I hadn't been so excited for a Nintendo product since the NES. While the 3D wasn't perfect and wasn't for everyone, I absolutely loved it and I really enjoyed the ability to set the depth used. It's truly a shame that Nintendo dropped the feature. Heck, I would've been satisfied with needing special glasses for it, but apparently they don't care.

[@argylega]

I treat my PS5 & Series X as upgraded models of the last-gen systems. I love the fact that those libraries are seamlessly compatible with the new hardware, often with upgrades, and I don't feel like I've "abandoned" my backlog of titles by upgrading. Yes, you can keep old hardware connected, but there's finite space and it's just a hassle. I want the same from the next Switch, and if it doesn't provide that I will be extremely disappointed. I would gladly pay a higher price to have that backwards compatibility.

[@asmodeusml]

If anything is stopping Nintendo from incorporating backward compatibility into their next console, it is probably not the hardware/software challenges, but security concerns as we all know that backward compatibility layer is a great potential point of initial entry for hackers.

[@philo23]

I would have thought there could be some kind of compatibility shim between the old drivers/shaders and the new hardware, kinda like the x86 emulation on Apple Silicon via Rosetta

[@ozordiprince9405]

Same, I'm not sure what MVG is thinking that translation and emulation layers can't easily fix driver issues. I mean there's a 19 year old girl that currently working on Linux drivers for the M1 and M2 chips. What makes a little driver compatibility issue a roadblock?

[@boshi9]

Rosetta 2 is the most impressive emulator ever made. It's way beyond the technical capabilities of Nintendo.

[@my80chevettes]

New SOC with an integrated x1 on the die is most likely. Same cartridge slot with improvement in throughput. Just my two cents

[@rougenaxela]

I wouldn't entirely give up on Switch games running without recompilation. Yes, the embedded driver stack is a hurdle, but it's not an insurmountable one. Speaking as someone with a lot of experience tinkering with various sorts of binaries, it's entirely possible that with some clever engineering, they could implement some auto-patching of the object files to run with a different driver stack. It wouldn't be simple, far from it, but it should be possible with a few clever developers with the right skillset working on it. The number of versions of the embedded driver stack in use is likely relatively limited, and those versions are likely what an auto-patcher would need to go out of it's way to target, rather than target individual games.

[@cgarzs]

Nah the nintendouche strategy isn't that hard to work out. It's pretty simple, they just go: "How can I be as big a c***t as possible today".

[@joes3461]

I liked the expanded explanation from a game dev perspective. I hope that backwards compatibility does happen in whatever form. Yes the way they did it like the 1st gen wii and gamecube compatibility would probably be best. But who knows at this point. Nvidia could have some magic going on with the next chip nintendo picked and was added with little cost. Time will tell. If need be I'll continue to keep a switch 1 for what may not work if it's not compatible on the switch 2.

[@JagGentlemann]

Interesting how this was expected and a non-issue before and now there are problems everywhere.

[@BennyBsolo]

This is click bait ...... there are NO problems .

[@JagGentlemann]

@@BennyBsolo I know, my comment had some sarcasm, I controlled myself so I don't sound like an asshole.

[@Dairunt1]

I'm a little lost; what's the problem with having the same cartridge format on the newer system? DS and 3DS games shared the same cartridge format no problem.

[@VSMOKE1]

They'll probably say something about climate change and it helping the environment and people will eat it up

[@VSMOKE1]

@@Dairunt1 I'm saying that will be there justification for not adding the cartridge slot, my goodness man keep up, these are billion dollar companies that Like to virtue signal it's just my opinion man you don't have agree with it.

[@Matanumi]

Its an expensive Preparatory card much like the SD card was for the Vita

[@skycloud4802]

I think the main issue is likely the size capacity and cost. I presume the Switch successor will have some ginormous games at a whopping 80gb or more, similar to pc and the latest PlayStation/Xbox installs. Unless, maybe of course Nintendo do something special with it, like getting manufacturers to install games through a code in the box and WiFi, or need of install through heavily compressed files of the current carts (much like on pc with disks).

[@syrozzz]

It's a bit of technological dead-end. Not fast and not big enough for modern games in the current state.

[@liamflan9553]

It will be backwards compatible with the Nintendo switch itself, like it has a dock. But it won’t be backwards compatible with switch game’s specifically. Give me a heart bro

[@AxelStone]

it would simply make non sense if the next switch didn't have backwards compatibilty. 120+ million consoles and many more games are out there.. it would not make sense to somewhat ignore this huge audience in some form.

[@jamescampbell6728]

I believe the Tegra X1 is out of production because it is so old so Nvidia stopped making it. There was a report a while back about how Nintendo stocked up on those chips when it happened. So unfortunately they won't be able to include one in the next switch

[@RamblyBear]

With the amount of Switches sold every year, I just dont see Nvidia stopping production. The Switch sells more units a year than many of their modern GPUs.

[@APopov]

There are at least 3 Tegra generations after X1. Currently Switch is the only real-life mass produced device with Tegra in it (AFAIK), so I guess NVIdia will do their best to continue partnership w/ Nintendo.

[@TheOldMachines]

@@APopov Audi Dashboards are Tegra based

[@Xirtamani]

Nah, it isn't. There was a bullshit report from early 2021 that they'd stop production in 2021 - and nothing was ever heard about that again. 16nm production lines are probably pretty cheap at TSMC nowadays. Maybe they paused it for a bit and then produced a big chunk again or whatever, but there is no good info to be found that they actually stopped producing them.

[@sdfxcvblank5756]

I'm willing to bet that that stockpile was actually for the wafer to be on the new switch hardware, honestly only a first reservation run makes me backwards compatible after that the game's library should have filled out by then and it's not really needed at that point

[@bobbobbins4877]

Considering that the Switch is still selling well, I expect that it will still be 2/3 more years before we see them release a new system. The longer they can hold it off, the bigger the potential leap forwards in system specs.

[@carlborch1887]

Imo, the Switch's guts say more about Nintendo's lack of attention to specs and desire to create a system that has a gimmick. I'd be surprised if the next console they release will have internal components that are relatively new. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the components the Switch used at launch were already roughly five years old iirc.

[@bobbobbins4877]

@@carlborch1887, it runs on an overclocked NVIDIA Tegra X1, which was two and a half years old when the Switch released. Nintendo are the only company who sell their hardware at a profit, so I wouldn't expect their next system to be a Rolls Royce if it's in a similar price range. But graphics and performance in the portable market has improved rapidly in the last decade, so hopefully a new Switch would benefit from that.

[@Enraric]

I think the next Switch will be backwards compatible because, historically, Nintendo has been very committed to backwards compatibility. Every handheld Nintendo has released has been backwards compatible, and the Wii and WiiU were backwards compatible as well (you could even move your digital purchases from your Wii to your WiiU, despite Nintendo not having an account system in place on the Wii). I suspect the only reason the Switch is not backwards compatible is because of the form factor; there's nowhere on the Switch you could put a disc drive for WiiU discs. Unless the Switch's successor radically alters the form factor again, I believe it will be backwards compatible.

[@TimDespairBear11]

Committed to backward compatibility my ass. They removed GBA support from the DS when the dsi came out, and they removed GCN support from the Wii after a few years. Wii and Wii U were literally the only back compat Nintendo home consoles.

[@16xthedetail76]

You need to consider game sizes as well, these cartridges cost shitloads at those larger sizes and they're still not enough. I don't see it happening.

[@TheOfficalAndI]

Switch has a pretty big library of games. It sold really well and users already have a lot of games and digital purchases. Whenever a new console comes out, people wanna play games on that and expect an improved experience, as you said. Though older switch games could have all sorts of improvements on a newer console too. Not just fps and resolution, but also screen[size}, audio, ergonomics and battery life. Without backwards compatibility Nintendo would have to pump out quality games for it, so people would be interested in a purchase. Also, it would suck if not a single previously purchased game would run on the newer console. It'd be like releasing the 3DS without DS support, I highly doubt Nintendo would do that.

[@klti0815]

Nintendo being Nintendo, I can see them embrace the opportunity to sell you the games you already own again. And they will definitely go even crazier in terms of security, encryption, etc to completely kill emulation, and real backwards compatibility would always be a hole in that. And third party publishers will probably port their big sellers, to squeeze more money out of them. The financial incentives really are heavily against backwards compatibility, even ignoring technical feasibility.

[@DanielHaywood]

I think the "patch required" route is the most likely. Depending on the form factor of the hardware they might also drop the switch cartridge slot and do some kind of ownership verification via your Switch and your Nintendo account to play the game digitally on Switch 2

[@IsraelLlerena]

Hey! What’s up?

[@briandadude]

Ownership verification thing will not happen. They would have to verify every time you launch a game. Nope

[@blendpinexus1416]

would be annoying but very possible

[@DanielHaywood]

@briandadude seems to me they may have some way of registering a specific cartridge to a specific Nintendo account such thar that cartridge couldn't be sold and then registered to a different account. If cartridges have some kind of unique identifier then Nintendo could allow you to register the cartridge once and only once to your account, transferring it to your digital library permanently. The only blocker would be if cartridges have no unique identifier, then Nintendo couldn't stop multiple accounts from registering the same cartrige.

[@cryangallegos]

@@DanielHaywood I imagine that would run foul of the EU

[@AQLV]

NVidia's Maxwell 28nm microarchitecture was not only the last NVidia architecture to use Planar transistors, it was already based off the 4 year old Kepler v1 architecture from the GTX 600/Quadro 2/3/4/5000 series. The chip in the Nintendo Switch is based on technology that is older than the Xbox One/PS4/Wii U... Preliminary GK1XX series dies were rolling out of TSMC in July of 2011... 12 years ago!

[@IdiotRace]

Wow, never knew that about Maxwell. Although even then it's wild to think that the 900 series came out 8 years ago.

[@RipstickRimmy]

Yea they released tegra x1 in 2015 2 years before the switch was even made. They were already outdated on release day. With how cheap chips are getting you would think Nintendo would make a break from these bullshit low end specs.

[@Xirtamani]

The fabrication process is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. And if you wanna go that route... EVERY chip is based on DECADES old technology. Also even the newest Lovelace etc isn't entirely new, parts of it are very well based on Kepler as well. This is not a bad thing or something that makes sense to criticize. On a sidenote, they use FinFET in the shrinked version of the Switch SoC (TSMC 16nm).

[@RipstickRimmy]

@@Xirtamani those chips are BASED on old hardware...they are not old hardware. I'm literally saying that if nentendo was giving you a gaming PC. They are basically building one with a 10th gen processor and a GTX 960 in it. Then selling it to you for prices like it was current gen. They need to finally decide if they want to keep up with competition or stay a handheld that is meant for children and Pokemon weebs.

[@xtr.7662]

it doesnt really matter when the tegra x1 released it was the high end mobile chip

[@JohnSmith-bt4lf]

I could see a potential scenario where digital backwards compatibility is supported, but not physical. There's a precedent in the form of the PS Vita, which could play digital PSP games but obviously not physical ones due to the lack of a UMD slot.

[@Papinak2]

I was thinking the same, it would fit Nintendo's efforts to steer people towards digital distribution and subscription models. However, people still want physical copies, as evidenced with current Metroid Prime situation, where people are waiting for physical availability instead of digital version.

[@Sarge92]

yes but no psp to vita was a format swap from optical disks to flash cartridges so yeah of course that didn't work but for the switch there's no logical reason to change the cartridges they do NOTHING special there essentially sd cards with at best a security chip inside there isn't much sense to changing the cartridge between versions because there's nothing to gain other than forcing people to buy more games at least with PSP they wanted to swap from optical to the smaller game cards

[@IanSane]

I feel like the consumer expectations for Nintendo's next console is a Switch 2 with specs that can pull off 4K and backwards compatibility. BC seemed like a fun bonus during the PS2/GBA days where all the games were physical but with online stores and accounts the expectation is to still have access to your existing library with new hardware. Aside from this potential backwards compatibility issue I've also heard rumours of Nintendo going with something unexpected, like what the Wii was compared to the Gamecube. Either of those would be a huge mistake. Nintendo's history has had them flip in generations between runaway successes and flops. They come across less like savvy company that's got their finger on the pulse of the video game market and more like a scattershot company that sometimes hits on wild guesses and has good enough business sense to survive when they guess wrong. I can't help but think of the transition from the Wii to the Wii U where it was clear that they did NOT know what the market wanted and had gotten lucky with the Wii. The Switch is a brilliant concept but it's also a fairly straightforward one. But Nintendo doesn't really understand straightforward iteration, they tend to think more in gimmicks. So my concern is that rather than do the conventional Switch upgrade we all want they figure they'll need to come up with a "new gameplay experience" that may or may not land.

[@supereliet1179]

i appreciate that you give detailed explanations about why you make these inferences

[@ryanrdlps]

One of the absolute most well-thought-out presentations on this in the industry. Your insight and developer knowledge really goes a long way to making your content entirely it's own thing!

[@hteekay]

If Nintendo don't plan for any backward compatibility then they better not use the name switch or make another hybrid again unless they want to repeat another Wii x WiiU situation.

[@captaincrunch1707]

Their next hybrid will sell like hot cakes no matter if it’s $400 or called Switch2. The hybrid platform is a PROVEN winner

[@jacquelineliu2641]

Isn't the Wii U fully BC with Wii though?

[@theshadowdirector]

If they go the route you suggest, patch all their first party games (excluding stuff like Labo) and try to get this parties on board. I think they would get away with it if they focus on and prioritise the best selling and highest rated third party games. I doubt many people will cry foul if most of the eShop shovelware is left out.

[@Linktothepast83]

And who says there is ever going to be a Switch 2 in the first place? It is Nintendo we are talking about here, going to a completely different direction than what the public asks for is not unheard off for them but the standard.

[@GO-tq6hs]

I remember when the Switch was launching and people were asking about Eshop backwards compatibility and nintendo just kept saying "we will have more to announce later" and then they dropped the switch online thing and were just like "yeah thanks for buying stuff on the eshop idiots".

[@Dairunt1]

I sincerely hope their solution is emulation; if Miyamoto is confident that backwards emulation is easier than ever then some GPU emulation solution had to have been done by Nvidia and Nintendo.

[@andreaciccarello]

Emulation is the last thing that they’ll do.

[@Dairunt1]

@@andreaciccarello There's always the idea that maybe Nvidia took the time and developed that solution in house instead of Nintendo. If there's no bc attached then what stops Nintendo to get AMD or Samsung to work on the next chipset? Nvidia has to convince them to keep working with them.

[@xtr.7662]

full emulation is just stupid even the steam deck which has a much more powerful cpu than the next switch will have struggles playing heavy switch games the max you can expect is semi emulation like the xbox 360 on the xbox one and wii on wii u

[@Elchinodawn]

@@xtr.7662 idk but you are kinda confident steam deck is more poweful than a console you don't even know its name yet, not saying it can't happen, but still

[@xtr.7662]

@@Elchinodawn its pretty much 100% chance the next switch wont have a cpu as powerful as the steam deck and 16gb ram

[@deraile]

MVG: "I don't want to be a bearer of bad news, but..." *_Becomes what he sought to destroy_*

[@DBDickerson]

I see what you did there using Shantae as an example :) It's cool how you brought that title to the Switch yourself.

[@jmo1205]

I love these videos. Your content is always so well put together. I aspire to gain this knowledge on your level one day. Bravo MVG!

[@majinchibi]

I think they will prevent backwards compatibility from happening. Not only because of the work but because of the profit. Some of us bought "virtual console" titles on wii and wii u. That should have been easy to port to the switch... *BEEEP* wrong, sorry, we have a "new" online service now, you cant keep any of that. But thank god they found a way to not get trapped in that corner again. They just turned the retro games in a live service. They would give too much away if you can just buy games one time and keep them over generations. :/ I am so glad about my chipped Mariko Switch. Retroarch and ScummVM on the go :)

[@Demokirby]

I do think one advantage of seamless backwards compatibility is not just playing older games, but also seamless development for Switch Indie scene, since there is likely a lot of developers make less demanding games who may have ongoing projects or low demanding projects who would be able to stick with developing on the switch rather than moving to a new architecture and this would make the new Generation transition seamless for Nintendo if they already have new games coming out.

[@dante19890]

Or you do the classic Nintendo move. You dont have backcompat and release remasters of popular switch games in 4k(ish)60fps for close to fullprice for the new system XD

[@dataterminal]

9:55 While market research suggests backwards compatibility may not be as important, it can't be used to deflect and say gamers want to have new experiences with the new hardware. Otherwise, it wouldn't account for why games are re-released on new hardware if it doesn't support BC or the publisher wants to rip the consumer of more money for a game they already owned.

[@thinkhector]

Agreed. Backwards compatibility is something everyone says they want, and research show they barely use it.

[@Dasaltwarrior]

I think Nintendo got bit by the remaster bug with the Switch. If there will be backwards compatability with brand new hardware, then its going to be intentionally limited We might not see 60 dollar re-releases like we did with Tropical Freeze, but I think we will get more in the way of remasters and ports rather than any software compatability. I don't know if Nintendo is will to leave that concept alone now that its clearly got a taste for it in recent years I'm also concerned that Nintendo is looking at the other platforms, all of which boasts backwards compatability, and double down on their forced scarcity practice they've been doing as of late to make their catalogue seem more valueable than it is. They're the only brand that has the library to get away with that, and I would not put it past them to do it after the Switch's success Hell, Metroid Primes physical release was out of stock for maybe a week and a half and it was already being re-sold for absurd prices. For a game that was being advertised as digitally availabe for the foreseeable future

[@HUYI1]

Yep, ding ding ding! We have a winner here! If they can get away with ripping off mugs to buy a metroid prime "remaster" and the 3d Mario trilogy "port" *cough, it's a bundle of overpriced ROMs* then they will get away with anything they greedily can and will if continue to let them, they have no intention of preserving anything for consumers, remasters are a big business now

[@Markimark151]

If the next gen Switch doesn’t have backwards compatibility with the current gen Switch, it would be their Achilles heel and would fail! Lots of people would be outraged, especially the large library of Switch games that wouldn’t be playable! Please don’t screw this up Nintendo!

[@railsrust]

Surprised nobody ever considered that they could just make a die shrunk Maxwell chip with a ton more cores in 7NM or smaller. Yeah it wouldn't be the newest architecture, but it would be much better in performance and keep the compatibility. There's a million alternatives they could go with that would work nearly as well that others have discussed. Even some hardware alternatives. They'll make it work. Since the Wii and the Gameboy Color they've done a pretty good job with backwards compatibility, and it was always a hardware solution. Hell, even the Wii U had the hardware to play Gamecube games, they just never made a disc drive that could accept the discs. This is why modded Wii Us can play Gamecube roms without software emulation. The only reason the Switch didn't have compatibility is with Wii U is probably just because they had a change of form factor ALONG with the architecture working against it.

[@nickwallette6201]

It's possible I didn't understand the actual problem here, but if all games link statically to a bundled-in SDK that Nintendo provided, what's to prevent Nintendo from swapping those libs for ones that are compatible with the API from the old gen, specifically for the purpose of providing transparent back-compat?

[@cyberrb25]

I don't think they'll keep the Tegra X1 SOC till the end of times. At some point they'll upgrade the SOC in their systems. They might have (say we have another refresh) a new SKU with the same chip but again smaller, and squeeze even more battery, but at some point this conundrum will happen. I think the new idea is the translation layer as a way to get games not made for your system. We've seen it on the Steam Deck and also in the Intel ARC lineup of GPUs. It could be that the "Switch 2" will have a small overhead in the style of this compatibility layer and maybe have some games with a "Switch 2"-specific executable on the side, at the expense of the developer. What is also true is that, as we see dynamic resolution and framerate, it actually could be easier, or plainly feasible, for games to simply perform better if specs are better. But this might be me.

[@NeilWatchesYT]

What if they embedded a Tegra X1 onto a dock similar to the Gameboy Player on the GCN? They could then recycle old stock into docks, and sells Back-Compat Docks for a premium.

[@Xirtamani]

Don't give them ideas for fucks sake :S.

[@beezle1976]

That'd take away the ability to play original Switch games in portable mode and has zero benefit vs just including it into the console itself.

[@willwunsche6940]

Honestly this makes me want them to wait a couple more years from today to release new hardware. I don't want a new Switch to be less powerful than a Steam Deck. Every year longer they wait they have access to new technology to build their next platform on

[@antayat123]

I've got to say these backwards compatibility issues with consoles, in general across all platforms, is one of the largest issues when attracting new gamers or exciting PC gamers away from PC's.

[@lpnp9477]

It pushed me away from consoles towards pc many years ago. Ain't coming back. I still own a switch and buy switch exclusives begrudgingly but I don't touch multiplatform stuff on it or own the other machines. Then I emulate the previous generations.

[@antayat123]

@@lpnp9477 I picked up a switch so that I could collect physical again. I can't do that with PC any longer. This issue and others have pushed me back to PC again too.

[@lpnp9477]

I feel you, physical is a big advantage consoles have. Though I get the feeling they will try to make digital only the future like Microsoft tried ten years ago. I'm personally fine with that since I don't collect physical media but many people enjoy it and it would be a shame to see it no longer be an option.

[@clebbington]

This is how I think Nintendo will do this - they'll strong-arm developers to recompile their games with the updated Switch 2 SDK, and then implement Smart Delivery-like system to distribute the updated binaries. They're going to say "Hey Dev X, your game is going to lose Nintendo licensing status and be delisted from our storefront if you don't recompile it in the newest version of the SDK." Developers will go into the new SDK, set a compile target as Switch 2 (or whatever it'll be called), and then export the new binary and submit to Nintendo. It's up to Nintendo to make the new SDK so good that it can auto-patch on recompile, but I think they could pull it off. As far as cartridges go, if you insert an original Switch cartridge into a Switch 2, it will just download the Switch 2 binary to the internal storage or SD card - kind of like Smart Delivery on Xbox. If you try to run the cart offline, you'll just get a "This game requires an update in order to run. Please connect your Switch 2 to a network and try again."

[@Monado.]

Honestly I'd say overall Nintendo has been pretty good with backwards compatibility despite the many differences in hardware between their consoles and handhelds over the years. And I feel if they were to not give the Switch any sort of backwards compatibility they'd be shooting themselves in the foot, especially with how much they're still pushing this hardware.

[@wpouser]

The overclock option, for me, sounds like the most plausible one, since it's what they did from game cube until Wii-u basically.

[@beardalaxy]

The Wii isn't an over clocked GameCube, it's just 2 GameCubes strapped together pretty much. The Wii U is very different and includes Wii hardware inside of it.

[@thomasemory4352]

@@beardalaxy it’s an overclocked gc

[@ihavenoideas5844]

@@beardalaxy the Wii's Broadway CPU and Hollywood GPU are literally just the GameCube's Gekko and Flipper overclocked by 50% It is not "2 GameCubes strapped together"

[@realKryptic17]

Sorry about all the attention this got, just feel assured you made a great video! And the internet is just being the internet about it and there's no good reason for those who have acted out unreasonably. They likely failed to even actually watch the video. Anytime who has seen your content knows what to expect, and appreciates your insights to be sure! You're a brilliant person. Keep shining!

[@adlorin]

But as per backwards compatibility, a solution could be that games’ companies would have access to the tools to export the existing code to, so that it could recompile it to the new architecture. In fact, they could also use this as an opportunity to add visual, game play, and regional (language) enhancements to make this version more compelling. The end user might simply need to download the switch 2 version from the game shop, if they already purchased it. Or perhaps, a small upgrade fee of a couple of bucks. Most people don’t mind paying a little for receiving an upgrade.