Morals and the Metal scene - do we care?

[@ClyFaker]

99% of the time I refuse to separate the art from the artist. Not only because I no longer want to give them any money, but also because there are so many other bands out there worth listening to that they won't be missed. Streaming has made finding them a bit easier too. The only time I really separate the art and artist is when the artist will no longer financially benefit and/or is long gone. A prime example is H.P. Lovecraft. The dude was extremely racist even for his time, but I love cosmic horror (also called Lovecraftian horror). That said, I prefer the works inspired by his stories over the originals so I guess even that exception is a wash.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

I entirely agree with you, especially about the plethora of bands that deserve that spot. You also make an incredible point about financial profit - my girlfriend says the exact same thing and it is very much true about many of her favourite authors.

[@jaredlesperance6874]

Yeah ok, enjoy your ten albums then. These people that make music re just fucking people, they're flawed JUST LIKE YOU.

[@JD-vj4go]

Seeing my old high school metal head friends turning into alt right ghouls is so depressing.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

I'm with you. It sucks.

[@BloodandSoilNS]

We'll be the ones saving you far left freakshows when shit hits the fan. It's hard to believe there are people who still have not woken up. It's a joke.

[@diphenhydramine6072]

I may not agree 100% but I have always had the opinion that art and the artist are connected, and therefore, it's not simple for humans to separate the two.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

Thank you for being here! What situation do you find it easy to seperate the two? Personally, if the artist is no longer alive or otherwise not profiting off of me consuming that art, I won't care much.

[@allosanthrwpos542]

So I completely separate the art from the artist. My memories - my experience of the music in my ears - in my life , has absolutely no connection to whatever the artist is doing in the other side of the planet. I couldn’t even imagine stop listening to some of my favourite artists .. the list is getting bigger n bigger.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

Interesting! Is there no artist you look up to? Is it all completely disconnected for you? No interviews of the people that made the art you consume? Genuinely asking, thank you for sharing and being here!

[@allosanthrwpos542]

@ Marilyn Manson is one of the smartest people , watch any of his interviews , he’s also a musical genius , but I do believe he’s innocent. Now Phil Anselmo , I love his voice n lyrics but I don’t look up to him or his interviews I don’t care.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

@@allosanthrwpos542 I don't know him personally, I've watched many of his interviews. He may be smarter than the average musician, but not one of the smartest people, come on now. He literally settled a rape case out of court last year. Just because a judge didn't get involved doesn't mean he's just a perfectly nice and normal person.

[@allosanthrwpos542]

@ he’s not a rapist, he’s an easy target. You can look up colonel Kurtz s videos , but people just won’t. You won’t either, you’ve made up your mind. It’s painfully obvious how they’re trying to take him down . People nowadays just blame someone and then look away . You can prove or disprove r**e sadly. And it’s a huge shame for women that did get r**ed. Anyways to your video , my point is this : Anyone should be free to keep listening to the “cancelled” artists or not. To each his own.

[@odraciskatube7725]

first off though i was the only PHILOSPHER in the metal scene so glad to see another d> he was arrested put in jail and his name was no more in the band hence forth. does that mean the art died with that artist? yes there are rotten aples in every community but don't let it spoil your mind also shout out to melechesh they are doing awesome.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

If the messages of the songs contain any Nazi content or not doesn't matter to me - I personally don't want my money supporting anyone with those thoughts and ideals.

[@odraciskatube7725]

​@@mammothaudioengineeringthat is your good right, in choosing who you want and don't want to support and hardly an ethical dilemma i'm sure. (but i'm going to play the devils advocate for 2 small seconds) do you think a band's current stance could change over time? pagan winter, gorgoroth, drudkh and nokrunal mortum moved out of nsbm have they scored some sort moral redemption points?

[@mammothaudioengineering]

@@odraciskatube7725 the support that nazis actively receive in the metal scene is very much an ethical dilemma

[@odraciskatube7725]

@@mammothaudioengineering hmm i see you're point. to put it bluntly (correct me if i'm wrong) you see in nsbm nazi ideologies as not about artistic expression just hate and division? and you are in the right it does goes against the roots of metal. but is it the metal scene that is supporting nasi's or theyr'e own network(neo-nazi/nazi/skinhead) niche group that organize and support themselves?

[@mammothaudioengineering]

@@odraciskatube7725 in Switzerland, those bands get regular booking slots among other (not-Nazi) bands so it isn't even isolated - they just get treated like they're normal bands and part of the scene by bookers and promoters. Often, the audience doesn't really know what they're paying for at the end of the day cause not everyone is in on the issues of the scene.

[@Rich4Reign]

I tend to believe separating art from the artist is largely a personal thing. I have removed Godsmack and Megadeth from my library because of their political leanings, but I have kept Marilyn Manson. I think the proper thing to do is approach each situation with nuance and understanding they are not all the same. Manson is known for being an asshole, but the whole situation with him has largely boiled down to finger pointing with no evidence to prove either side. I am also an Angry Joe fan and he was accused of SA some years ago, but he was able to produce receipts that back him up. We've also seen things like Jussie Smollet using the disgusting behavior of the right to fabricate something that never happened to him. I think we need to wait and see what happens when allegations are made. I am a huge Harry Potter fan, and I think that those books are still great reads, and the messages of inclusivity in them are still valid despite JK's horrible stance on the trans community. It really is just gonna depend on the art and what it means to you.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

Thank you so much for your comment - this kinda comment is exactly what I'd hoped to read and I am happy to have attracted people to this channel that understand nuance. Again, thank you!

[@targard.quantumfrack6854]

I have the firm belief that Manson loves to play the asshole but he isn't really one.

[@Laurynassi]

What you described here is cognitive dissonance. All humans are capable of holding seemingly opposing ideas and acting on whichever is stronger, only later to contemplate whether or not it was the right thing to do. Just as supporting musicians for their art, but ignoring all the horrible things they are doing that go against all your instincts and beliefs. This is a psychological phenomenon.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

I am not so sure it can all be prescribed to cognitive dissonance. There's too many that just do not care, at all. "He did his time, so it's fine!" Has been said on more than one occasion.

[@Laurynassi]

@@mammothaudioengineering Well, yes, naturally people respond defensively. The whole cancel culture phenomenon is so polarising because it makes people who like what they like on a superficial level (i.e., the music is nice, I don't care about the artist) feel guilty and ashamed of their personal preference. And even if you are a fan, this kind of behaviour would persist (of course if you as a person are inclined to it). If you find some redeeming quality in a morally dark person, you can justify your tolerance for bad behaviour. This is something you wouldn't normally do for a person you did not care for in the first place (some criminal you saw on the news for example). The short-term satisfaction from listening to a song you love vs. admitting that the person you like/created music you like is a piece of shit. I think I know which on a personal level is more rewarding, but is it morally right?

[@mammothaudioengineering]

@Laurynassi you make many amazing points, thank you so much! It is so important to not shame people just for their superficial likes. That condescending behaviour is exactly what I strive to avoid. Educating them nicely is absolutely possible but we also have to choose our battles for these things. Not every battle is one worth fighting, especially when you risk antagonizing potential allies. I am VERY much with you. I realize how terminally online I am and that most people just don't really keep up and it's not because they don't care - they just do stuff outside of the internet and ultimately that is good, I think. At the end of the day I just wanna be the best person I can. Lecturing others condescendingly is not part of that, especially not about nieche topics like this.

[@Laurynassi]

@@mammothaudioengineering I totally agree. The best thing one can do for himself is be altruistic. At the end of the day, all those things that I said matter very little. The behaviour patterns I described are governed by the irrational mind, not the rational. To most people, it would sound patronising at best :)

[@fakechemicals]

I have some complaints and nitpicks but I'd rather use this space to expand on something that I don't hear people expressing often. Namely, the concept of "the death of the author" which is where the idea of separating a work of art or media from it's creator or creators. "Death of the Author" is not a way of thinking or approaching controversial art as an end user, that is to say that it has nothing to do with purchasing, supporting, or even enjoying a piece of media. "Death of the Author" is a tool of literary and media analysis. It's not about distancing the author from their work for your enjoyment, it's about putting aside what you know about the creator when interpreting and discussing the media in question. It allows the critic to look at an album as the album itself presents itself without considering influencing factors like the recording studio, budget, available technology at the time, and the zeitgeist surrounding the music scene or genre. Let's apply this to Burzum. With "death of the author" we can determine that the audio quality is poor, the instrumentation is clumsy and dull, the mastering leaves unpleasant and tinny sounds from what is likely cheap intruments, every song sounds like a poor uninspired attempt at baroque music. This analysis ignores some very crucial facts about the creator of the works; namely that most of it was recorded in prison using a very limited amount of secondhand instruments and with limited access to proper recording or mastering equipment. All of those mitigating factors can and should be considered when reviewing the work, because the music is meant to be evocative of baroque music but with a modern black metal aesthetic to update it for an audience that loves black metal, a genre already heavily influenced by baroque compositions. Bringing that in however means we need to consider composer Varg Vikernes' role in its creation. The fact that he was in prison for murder, his draw to black metal and baroque music comes from his white supremacist worldviews which suggests that his intent with creating this music is at least in some part hopes to inspire white supremacists and possibly even draw new people into that way of thinking by whatever means he can reach them. None of this is meant to be a true critical analysis of Burzum and its music, either part, I simply chose it because it seems the most appropriate for people visiting this videos comment section. The point is that separating the art from the artist isn't an ethos for choosing which art you enjoy and support. It's a tool that you use to gain a broader perspective on a piece of media to better understand the art not only as an individual piece but as a part of the greater media landscape. In short, you're supposed to do both, if you're not considering the authors input, influence, and intent behind the creation of the piece you are not examining the piece fully. You can absolutely enjoy a piece of media from a controversial artist, but if you're not mindful of why that artist is controversial and still supporting it then you are also supporting that artists views and actions even if you think that they are harmful.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

Great post and awesome write up, thank you so much! Just one caveat: "The point is that seperating the art from the artist isn't an ethos for choosing which art you enjoy and support" - that's where I disagree. I don't want to support Burzum exactly because of those views. I am not looking at this as a music critic, but as a human being whose actions have real consequences. I am not listening to Burzum not because I think it sucks but it's on principle. The quality of the music has no bearing in this - I don't WANT to seperate the art from the artist in an instance like that because I know me listening to it would literally support a murderer white supremacist.

[@allosanthrwpos542]

Marilyn Manson is 100% innocent though , it’s super obvious. He’s just an easy target due to his persona. Look up colonel Kurtz, she proves everything.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

Thank you!

[@marcgetz81]

With Marilyn Manson, I enjoy most of his music. I don't believe all the accusations against him, but then I wasn't there, so I won't say he didn't do anything but I hope he is living a better positive life. That being sad, I kinda separate the art from the artist with him I guess cause I enjoy his music so much. As I Lay Dying,I never really got into them so I'm not really affected like some people are.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

Thanks for your comment and being here!

[@Jorge-he6im]

I don't separate, I accept that we as a collective are inherently flawed and most have good and evil in us. Most music and movies are made possible by multiple people and many of them you will never meet. I use gasoline, clothing, electricity and computers knowing that many of those industries have done and still do heinous things. I consume art, music and films never knowing if the key grip of a movie is a murder, if a sound engineer is a rapist. I have listed to bands where the singer (male and female) have allegedly committed crime that is not confirmed. I am flawed I consume meat, terrorized ants as a kid, may have committed fraud and other minor crimes to the eyes of some. In short if I am flipping channels and run into The Naked Gun 2 and a half I am not loosing any sleep cause The Juice is in it but it is also ok for you to flip the channel. ✌🏼

[@mammothaudioengineering]

Love this comment - thank you for partaking in the discussion! You made many great points, I appreciate it!

[@JD-vj4go]

I have a hard time separating the art from the artist. I love Megadeth and Iced Earth but their fascist politics and support for dumb and absurd conspiracy theories kind of ruins it for me.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

With Iced Earth 100% with you. I am not sure about Mustaine and his views tbh - he just seems contrarian to me more than anything? Not sure, but I do see where you come from, for suuuure.

[@JD-vj4go]

@@mammothaudioengineering He's pushed those weird FEMA conspiracies in the past and promoted Alex Jones. Some of the lyrics on the new album are just embarrassing pro military junk. Which is too bad musically it's their best album since RIP.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

@@JD-vj4go yeah, no, promoting Alex Jones definitely crosses several lines. Fuck that. The pro military angle is also really weird, especially it being the person who fucking wrote Holy Wars. What a dude.

[@allosanthrwpos542]

I love iced earth , I just don’t hear “fascist” at all when listening to “the dark saga” or “something wicked” , I honestly don’t and I never cared either.

[@JD-vj4go]

@allosanthrwpos542 Singer tried to overthrow the government.

[@allosanthrwpos542]

So I completely separate the art from the artist. My memories - my experience of the music in my ears - in my life , has absolutely no connection to whatever the artist is doing in the other side of the planet. I couldn’t even imagine stop listening to some of my favourite artists .. the list is getting bigger n bigger. Metal does care , there’s people calling me all the -isms & -phobes, for listening to Pantera , Manson , Iced earth n most recently As I lay dying 😂 It’s so annoying being a strong anti rascist my whole life to be called one now cause I listen to that band !

[@mammothaudioengineering]

I mean, you ARE giving money to them and thus supporting them, unless you pirated their music. I get not wanting that label, but you have to see the dissonance in calling yourself anti-racist and then knowingly continuing to support proven racists. That doesn't add up for people looking at it objectively. Thank you for sharing, man, I really do appreciate it!

[@hardrockgaming2355]

I feel like Manson is different cause of how sketchy the accusers and a lot of their accusations are. Also I think it's foolish to separate the art from the artist for someone like Marilyn Manson who's so deeply intertwined in the lyrics he writes. I feel you can enjoy art that's inherently "bad" morally. Disregarding artists with evil traits goes against art imo because it's also part of the human condition, a massive part. Exploring your own mind, you'll run into good and bad and excluding either is dishonest as anti art.

[@mammothaudioengineering]

I agree! I don't seperate the art from the artist with Manson, I just have no emotional attachment to that situation so it would be fairly easy for me to not care. I do care on principle, I'm with you.

[@allosanthrwpos542]

My friend you’ve been lied to. Manson is 100% innocent , look up colonel Kurtz, it’s super obvious Mansons accusers are lying and he is just an easy target due to his persona.

[@gigeorge6sic6]

The most despicable thing (besides the obvious thing) about As I Lay Dying and similar bands is that they pretended to be a Christian Metal band and instilled false morals, in order to establish a fan base (who are more interested in the religious message rather then music). Once these bands “make it”, they first beat around the bush and then deny any affiliation with being part of the Christian rock scene. It’s like the South Park episode where Cartman starts a fake Christian Rock band

[@mammothaudioengineering]

Faith+1, but it's Metalcore!

[@Neeeg]

I didn’t know JKRowling was r/\cist I thought she was a feminist

[@mammothaudioengineering]

Plenty of racist stuff in those books, we just didn't get it as kids. The only named asian character is Cho Chang, which is not a real name. The Irish kid likes to play with explosives. Shit, she even had a whole story line where she makes Hermione look like the annoying one for wanting to free literal enslaved beings. JKR is incredibly ignorant of other coultures and minorities. If I was a Harry Potter character, my name would be Mohammad Al Arabi or something.

[@racer5-d4e]

i could never listen to All that remains any more once i found out Philip Labonte supports trump and is a regular guest on Tim Pool

[@mammothaudioengineering]

He's not just a regular guest - he's employed there. Yes, for real. Dude is a massive douche bag.

[@racer5-d4e]

@@mammothaudioengineering oh i didnt realize that?! What a scumbag!

[@DeftikAngling]

Metal welcomes all. True "inclusivity" That includes vile people. Don't like it, keep on walking!

[@mammothaudioengineering]

Look up the paradox of tolerance, my man