Mormon Church Apologists...

[@Think_4_Yourself]

i think it'd be cool to make a list of all the "assumptions" that have to be made if you belive the current narrative of the church to be true. like it might be fun to go through the CES letter and more and list all the string of multiplied probabilities that a believing member would have to agree with and then realize how absurd it would be to assume as they do. nice video, good to see you back on TY. Congrats btw

[@ubermormon9611]

Love that idea!

[@T-41]

Thanks for doing this, and all the best to you folks with your new addition to the family! I learned enough about Mormonism when I was 16 to be suspicious. Nothing since then has changed the perception. Also computer and communication technology is great … when it works.

[@ubermormon9611]

When it works…..

[@johns1834]

Don't worry about church history, instead ask why every Sunday, mormons desecrate Jesus when the 'left over' blessed and sanctified bread and water is unceremoniously thrown into the trash, as mormon church leaders smile and speak of the goodness of the lds church.

[@kd3738]

Congratulations on the birth of your second child!!!

[@lesbrown8915]

Best wishes on your new child! Thanks for the pod cast!

[@Rcplanecrasher]

Congratulations on the second kid. As a father of a 5 year old and 2 year old, it’s definitely the hardest thing I’ve ever done. The amount of free time I had went to almost zero, and still is.

[@ubermormon9611]

Thanks you. I guess we should wish each other good luck!

[@reasonforbelieving8388]

Dude, it was casual and a little off the cuff - but you gave me new things to think about and consider. Well done! Never let perfectionism get in the way of putting something out there.

[@reasonforbelieving8388]

Also, congrats on the kiddo. Being a dad - and a good one - is something to treasure and be proud of.

[@ubermormon9611]

Thank you. I’m willing to be a sub part KZbinr as long as I’m a good dad.

[@cinnamondan4984]

My second was twins. Born in late October. I feel your pain (and pleasure)

[@JonathanWilliams-hb1be]

My basic theory of the case is that Joseph Smith was a talented storyteller and salesman. He was able to sell people on his treasure digging abilities while also entertaining friends and family with his stories about Native Americans. As his treasure digging opportunities dried up, as one can only go so far when the treasure always disappears right before it is obtained and the law authorities are on to you, he figured out a way to monetize his grift by actually producing treasure. He realized that while he couldn't actually produce buried treasure, he could produce the next best thing: the stories attached to the buried treasure. The genius was that the product became the stories written on the treasure, rather than the tangible treasure itself. He combined his two products to form something that was of actual value.

[@ubermormon9611]

This is a great theory!

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

You just want to make excuses for your fear to find out for yourself.

[@jeremycollins1068]

That theory doesn’t hold water. Doesn’t even come close to explaining his body of work and the enduring nature of it.

[@jonathanwilliams1641]

@@WatchingwaitingG2D Actually, I did find out for myself. Open up to info beyond the recommended "only faith promoting" and try a little critical thinking and you can overcome your fears. You should try it.

[@jonathanwilliams1641]

@@jeremycollins1068 The enduring nature of it? The Book of Mormon is proven to not be historically accurate. Would you say the Book of Abraham is "enduring?" It is completely made up and is a laughingstock for actual Egyptologists. To claim the Joe's body of work is enduring is one of the funniest claims I've heard on KZbin, and that is saying something.

[@thuggie1]

congratulation on your second child. i hope you are keeping well it is always great to see you posting. peace

[@sarastelcz2338]

It amazes me to see how stupid they think their members are.

[@ubermormon9611]

I wish it still amazed me.

[@Songsofourown23]

Lol Matthew P.Gill I love that you mentioned him.Did you know Moroni delivered the plates of Jaroneck and Aaroneck by Uber per his interview on Priesthood Discussions.

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

Similar to went, the stork delivered you to the gorillas. Made you what you are today.

[@hayteren]

For 200 years criticisms pop up. And for 200 years they fall one by one

[@ubermormon9611]

Are you saying this about the Book of Mormon? I think you might be living in a bubble with that one friend. Best of luck recognizing that.

[@hayteren]

​@@ubermormon9611 not only that. If you don't see how many "refutations" of the book and the Church in general keep falling flat, you must do honest research. Remember this, peace will be broken everywhere else on the planet, but you can come back to the Christ and his Kingdom. I would encourage you to read Don Bradley if you think it's illogical to believe The Book of Mormon.

[@Enos_Envy]

Congrats! Are you on TwXtter? Would love to see your take on a LDS apologetics series I'm doing for the next month.

[@ubermormon9611]

I’m not on the twitters. You can email me in the description.

[@Songsofourown23]

Great interview with Gene!

[@ubermormon9611]

Thank you!

[@mindieerb62]

The thing that gets me is that Joseph and his family didn't live in Palmyra when he was 14. Historical documents clearly prove it. He lived in Palmyra at age 18.

[@ubermormon9611]

If you could send those my way I would appreciate it. Email is in the description.

[@ZelphBallard-bg9mt]

Here's a thing none of the peeps who have had the second have physically seen the saviour.

[@DancingQueenie]

A new version is that Fannie Alger’s brother worked for Joe Smith SR. Joe Jr told Fannie’s brother that when he had the vision, god touched his eyes and ears so he could receive revelation. That would be what? Five versions? Saw it on some TBM channel so I just got the top line. Now I wish I’d paid more attention.

[@ubermormon9611]

Man I would love to be able to see that video. Do you remember what channel it was?

[@DancingQueenie]

@@ubermormon9611I cleared my history so I don’t have it. I tracked references from “reliable sources” including Dan Peterson and Hugh Nibley, which would make RMN proud of us. This is from FAIR - the writer of the 1893 journal entry says it was something they’d never heard of before. Yeah. Me too. Karl Larson and Katharine Miles Larson, eds., Diary of Charles Lowell Walker (Logan, UT: Utah State University Press, 1980), 2:755-56 [recorded 2 February 1893] 2nd Feb Thurs [1893] Cold and chilly. Attended Fast Meeting.... Br John Alger said while speaking of the Prophet Joseph, that when he, John, was a small boy he heard the Prophet Joseph relate his vision of seeing The Father and the Son, That God touched his eyes with his finger and said “Joseph this is my beloved Son hear him.” As soon as the Lord had touched his eyes with his finger he immediately saw the Savior. After meeting, a few of us questioned him about the matter and he told us at the bottom of the meeting house steps that he was in the House of Father Smith in Kirtland when Joseph made this declaration, and that Joseph while speaking of it put his finger to his right eye, suiting the action with the words so as to illustrate and at the same time impress the occurrence on the minds of those unto whom He was speaking. We enjoyed the conversation very much, as it was something that we had never seen in church history or heard of before.

[@DancingQueenie]

⁠​⁠@@ubermormon9611 Did you see my reply before it vanished? I’ll try again. Can’t find the video but found plenty of references. One from FAIR. Charles Lowell Walker’s journal. 2nd Feb Thurs [1893] Cold and chilly. Attended Fast Meeting.... Br John Alger said while speaking of the Prophet Joseph, that when he, John, was a small boy he heard the Prophet Joseph relate his vision of seeing The Father and the Son, That God touched his eyes with his finger and said “Joseph this is my beloved Son hear him.” As soon as the Lord had touched his eyes with his finger he immediately saw the Savior. After meeting, a few of us questioned him about the matter and he told us at the bottom of the meeting house steps that he was in the House of Father Smith in Kirtland when Joseph made this declaration, and that Joseph while speaking of it put his finger to his right eye, suiting the action with the words so as to illustrate and at the same time impress the occurrence on the minds of those unto whom He was speaking. We enjoyed the conversation very much, as it was something that we had never seen in church history or heard of before.

[@DancingQueenie]

Ok. I don’t see my replies. Google “John Alger on FAIR Mormon” and you’ll see it!

[@SploinkyDH.]

About to have my second. Congrats!

[@ubermormon9611]

It’s the greatest! Good luck!

[@JamesBPreston]

You go guy!

[@mindieerb62]

I the idea of moving beyond mormonism.

[@barbiechopshop9538]

I find myself wondering about all these apologists and the sophistry they are engaging in, surely on some level they are conscious of themselves carrying on with these disingenuous arguments. I would normally suspect malicious intent but perhaps that's giving these apologists too much credit and this is just another example of what Hannah Arendt calls The Banality of Evil.

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

You don't seem to be a real person. Just pretending to support this other pretender.

[@barbiechopshop9538]

@@WatchingwaitingG2D argumentum ad hominem

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

@barbiechopshop9538 Ah, the words used by hypocrites and cowards. In your case, much more, isn't it?

[@ZelphBallard-bg9mt]

No one has a major life event and then rights it 19 years later

[@ubermormon9611]

Thank you!

[@moonman5543]

Congrats, I miss your lives, content and discussions with other content creators

[@ubermormon9611]

I think I’m bring a consistent live schedule BACK!

[@dannylarsen4290]

"Snap decision"? These guys must think everyone is stupid.

[@ubermormon9611]

Well, they are so rounded by people who haven’t been taught to think…

[@TalkingtoMormons]

I'm glad you shared that with us. Was LDS for 60 years and full-time seminary teacher before waking up to the nonsense. @@ubermormon9611

[@ubermormon9611]

Wow that is a long time! Congrats on getting out and waking up!

[@Marc010]

Inferences and assumptions = "faith*

[@ubermormon9611]

For when the facts are not on your side…

[@Marc010]

@@ubermormon9611 I have a Mormon friend who dismisses every illogical story/claim of Mormonism as faith. I always ask, "Does that apply to any religion or just yours?" Congrats on baby 2!

[@ubermormon9611]

@@Marc010 Thats always a fun question.

[@Rcplanecrasher]

Nice apologetic straw man’s they have there. Just embarrassing. Not only did he not write it down he didn’t mention it to anyone not even his mom, it’s totally absent from her telling of the story. For all of the early members the “first vision” was Moroni’s visit. Then when he does tell it is a around the time when his authority is being challenged etc. hmmm. Then on the seer stone thing. The issue is he was pretending to see things in his rock and defrauding people, then when it becomes religious stuff coming out of the rock, now it’s real! No! You should be very skeptical of such a person.

[@ubermormon9611]

Well said!

[@tylerahlstrom4553]

Joseph’s first written account of the first vision is from 1832, not 1839. Emphasis on written, not spoken. Joseph mentioned this vision to people early on. So church videos showing people reacting negatively to him early on is accurate. Joseph was 14 at the time this vision happened. It’s understandable why he didn’t immediately think to write it down, especially considering his limited writing ability and it was at a time when writing material was not as common as now. I don’t think I made a written account of the day I got married, although it was a significant day in my life. Does that mean it did not happen?

[@are-jaypeterson6190]

Look. I am with you that apologetics can be quite awful but how is what you do any different? Are you not being an apologist of your world view?

[@ubermormon9611]

I don’t think apologetics are inherently “bad”. I think these arguments are silly and have obvious flaws so I pointed them out. I think that makes a small distinction between the way I am being an apologist and the way they are.

[@are-jaypeterson6190]

@@ubermormon9611 but couldn't someone make another video that points out silly logic in your video?

[@ubermormon9611]

@@are-jaypeterson6190 you don’t have to make a video. Point it out to me here in the comments. Where am I using silly logic? Anyone who is engaged in the online discussion can be called out and their points can be argued. I did it to these guys, now you are doing it to me and maybe someone will do it to you now. Fair is fair.

[@tam323]

​@@are-jaypeterson6190 what statements has he said that are silly and illogical?

[@are-jaypeterson6190]

I find it incredibly silly when people depict Joseph Smith as black or white. They either defend all things at any cost or they depict him as 100 percent a bad man and do not cede ground of any good. I think it would actually help your argument as the more relatable person here to share honestly perhaps some evidence you find compelling or other goodness coming from Joseph Smith or the despite seeing most of the evidence point against him being a true prophet. Overall as you probably could tell from the original comment I don't like apologists. Anyone who engages in it turns off a bit of their rationality to defend their position in front of their audience instead of being an honest searcher of truth

[@tviv1]

Wow, condescending and wrong. Interesting

[@ubermormon9611]

We should have been expecting it tbh.