The Problem with Mormon Testimonies

Рет қаралды 2,303

9 ай бұрын

#exmormon #atheism #jordanpeterson #lds #exmo
Street epistemology is a method of engaging in respectful and Socratic-style conversations with people to explore the foundations of their beliefs, particularly their deeply held religious or philosophical convictions. It was popularized by Peter Boghossian in his book "A Manual for Creating Atheists" and has gained traction as a means to foster critical thinking and encourage open-minded dialogue.
Here are some key aspects of street epistemology:
1. **Socratic Questioning**: Street epistemology is heavily influenced by the Socratic method, which involves asking open-ended questions to stimulate critical thinking. Practitioners often use questions like, "How did you come to that belief?" or "What evidence do you have to support that claim?" This helps people reflect on the processes that led them to their beliefs.
2. **Reflective Listening**: Street epistemologists actively listen to their conversation partners, not just to respond but to understand. This promotes a respectful and empathetic environment in which the person feels valued and heard.
3. **Doubt and Confidence Scale**: In some street epistemology conversations, a confidence scale may be used to gauge the level of certainty a person has in their belief. This scale helps individuals evaluate their convictions and encourages them to think about the reasons for their certainty.
4. **Avoiding Confrontation**: Street epistemologists aim to avoid confrontational or hostile tactics. Instead, they seek to build rapport and trust with the person they are speaking to. The goal is not to "win" the argument but to encourage self-reflection.
5. **Encouraging Self-Reflection**: The primary objective of street epistemology is to help individuals assess their beliefs critically. Practitioners do not impose their views but guide the person in examining their own thought processes and evaluating the evidence that supports their beliefs.
6. **Online and Offline Practice**: Street epistemology can occur in various settings, both in person (e.g., on street corners or at public events) and online (e.g., through social media platforms or video conferencing). Online communities and forums have emerged where people can share their experiences and receive feedback on their street epistemology conversations.
7. **Ethical Considerations**: Practitioners of street epistemology emphasize ethical behavior. They must obtain informed consent from the individuals they engage with and respect their boundaries. The focus is on promoting constructive conversations, not on coercing or manipulating someone into changing their beliefs.
Street epistemology has been used not only in discussions related to religion but also in conversations about various controversial topics, including politics, pseudoscience, and conspiracy theories. It encourages people to examine the foundations of their beliefs and, in some cases, may lead to a reevaluation or modification of those beliefs. It serves as a tool for promoting critical thinking and fostering more reasoned and evidence-based discourse in society.

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@andrewtheawesome 9 ай бұрын

Wow I resonate with this. This is very similar to why I lost my testimony. I had been in a process of learning about pyramid schemes, extreme political beliefs, niche beliefs like flat earth and aliens, and eventually cults and religions and I realized how much I distrust my own emotions and authority figures as sources of truth. Once I confronted my testimony, based on subjective emotional experiences, with that distrust, my testimony collapsed very quickly. It has helped me have such a great appreciation for the scientific method, which uses observations and data to objectively rule out things that we know are NOT true, rather than make claims about what is true. It has also helped me gain an appreciation for post-religious faith and intuition because truth is elusive, and yet we still have to make decisions and define values that we feel good about. Thanks for the video!

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

Thank you for that comment! Reading your thoughts really made me feel like we went through the same process. I’m glad we both made it out!

@henkaistudio 9 ай бұрын

@@ubermormon9611Many Mormons are turning into Christians and many other Mormons are turning into Atheists and Agnostics.

@synnocide 9 ай бұрын

First video of yours I’ve come across, and I’ve never been religious. The production value of this is great - thanks for putting this out there for us to see!

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

Glad you are here and thank for the nice comment!

@jerry_phillips 9 ай бұрын

I’ve had a witness of the Spirit at least four times in un undeniable way. The first occurred over 35 years ago. It’s often confused as feelings but thats like saying a breeze is cold. Cold is not a synonym for the word breeze. Feeling cold is the response and the breeze is the stimulus. That’s why Galatians refers to “the fruit” or in other words “the response”. When one has a witness of the spirit, that stimulus is so overwhelming that it produces the response of all those feeling described in Galatians. I had witness of the Spirit when I read the Book of Mormon for myself for the first time. I wasn’t expecting it and there was no prior stimulus or emotional build up. Much like an unexpected breeze. The experience was undeniable. Over the years I’ve tried to describe it but unless you’ve experienced it one is left with describing aspects of the experience but not the actual experience. What I gained from my experience was not specifics like your video talked about. I came away with a sure knowledge that God exists, is mindful of me, and that what I was reading was true. That’s it. Everything from then on was a deduction and required faith. As I look back I believe I was given enough to move forward but not so much as to effect my independent agency. One thing I’ve come to understand is that a witness of the Spirit is not exclusive to LDS. In fact its not exclusive to Christianity. That’s a hard concept for many to grapple with but nonetheless undeniable if one simply will listen and learn from those outside their faith. The Spirit testifies of truth. In my case it was the truth of God’s existence and The Book of Mormon. I’m not going to speak for another’s experience but I imagine another’s experience was a witness of truth within their context. The Spirit is not assembly instructions like you would need to Google. Does it take anything away from my experience that someone else outside my faith has had a witness of the Spirit? Nope. Why should it? I know what I experienced and got the message intended for me. I wouldn’t presume to speak for someone else nor deny the source of their experience but I’m confident God loves all his children and if they stumble upon truth within the context of the truth available to them he’ll want them to know it as well. Now just because I’ve had a witness of the Spirit does not mean I’ve never had my faith challenged. I’m well versed in all the controversies of church history and murky waters of apologetics. I spent many years steeped in controversial topics. Its an unending cycle of questions and answers until one finally decides to get off the merry-go-round and make a choice. I made mine you made yours. Ultimately for me it came down to choosing the side that was backed by the witness of the Spirit I had originally received. Both sides have access to logic and reasoning but only one side for me was undergirded by the Spirit. I’m happy and committed to my choice and wish you all the best in yours.

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

I appreciate you putting your perspective here and also for being respectful. Is there anything about the spiritual witness that you have felt that you find to be different from the people in the last clip?

@jerry_phillips 9 ай бұрын

@@ubermormon9611 That's a tough question because you're asking me to compare my personal experience with another's personal experience. Since I can't even adequately describe my own experience how could I compare it to someone else's? As I mentioned before I don't believe LDS have an exclusive to spiritual experiences. Also, I think many (including myself at one time) deduce more from their spiritual manifestation than was given to them. I'm confident the witness I experienced brought me to the awareness of God's existence and love for me and testified of the Book of Mormon. I've had to develop from that the rest of my faith and beliefs but I have had subsequent experiences with the spirit that confirmed to me that I was on the right path. It's as important to understand what message one is NOT receiving from the spirit as it is to understand what message one IS receiving. It's easy to confuse the message with what one deduces from the message. I've had many emotional responses to external stimuli like when I first saw Les Meserables back in the early 90's on Broadway. Those experiences though moving don't compare to a witness of Holy Ghost. They certainly stirred emotions but didn't change my nature like the witness of the spirit did. I could have never changed the path that I was on without the experience I had. Not everyone has experienced the Holy Ghost in a such a profound way. Some like my wife just gravitate towards God in a faithful way and don't need that. That's not me. It took more for me. I'm skeptical by nature. Also, I recognize that some have had that experience but have convinced themselves that it can be explained away psychologically. All the psychological explanations I've read seem very inadequate to me. It's amazing how in this world of instant access to information how truth seems as elusive and vague as it ever has been. We have far more video proof of the atrocities of Hamas for example than we ever had of the holocaust and yet just days later the whole world is debating the evidence. The "information super highway" is as full of falsity as it is of facts. Trying to deduce truth from Google, Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, etc etc is simply inadequate. A testimony is a not solely an intellectual process. It must be backed with a witness beyond our mere intellect. In my journey of weighing the evidence for and against my faith I've ultimately ended up with two large stacks of evidence to bolster each side. Ultimately I chose the side backed by the Spirit.

@thuggie1 9 ай бұрын

I never got up during fasting testament meetings. Getting up in front of 100 people to speak is my idea of a living hell.

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

You are not alone with that one!

@thuggie1 9 ай бұрын

@ubermormon9611 to me, looking back at it, you can see what it was about to create a unified experience. I think that is hard for me as I find it hard to understand other people. It's been more of an academic approach, understanding people's emotions intent, i feel emotions i find it hard to process them and see it in others. If that makes sense

@sachamo100 9 ай бұрын

I have been a Member for 40 years. As I learned more about Cults, the last few years I decided to investigate the claims of anti-mormons. I found so many parallels with the church that I felt compelled to continue investigating. I am mostly convinced that the church isn't what it claims to be. God people with lots of good principles but not God's True Church. I haven't lost my testimony but gained more light and knowledge. I expect soon to be able to reconcile my anguish over the conflicts that still exist in my mind.

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

What conflicts do you think are giving you the biggest headache at the moment?

@brettpinion4233 8 ай бұрын

WHY DO LDS REJECT GOD OF BIBLE & BELIEVE IN FALSE GOD OF Joseph Smith? ISN'T YOUR ETERNITY WORTH EXAMINING THE TRUTH? NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 facsimiles taken from an ancient papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus showing scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In Facsimiles Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE NO trace of the “Two million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. It would be impossible for these millions of dead warriors in armor to leave no trace. NO trace of the great city Zarahemla- it would be impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla (Alma 5:2; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace. NO trace of Jewish dna found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from time period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (Mormon scholar, DNA researcher):“We are in a dilemma, the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are not Hebrews, they are not Israelites. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005 NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. If the temple Nephi describes ever existed it could not disappear. NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings ever found anywhere as it is not a real language anywhere in the world. NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) anywhere. It would be impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed. NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet not one ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for highly advanced civilizations (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished. The BOM speaks of sheep, swine, silk, wool clothing & elephants existing in the Americas when they did not. 1 Ne.13:7; Alma 4:6; Ether 9:17 and 10:24 These were brought to America centuries later by Europeans. NO wheat, no goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no cattle, no chariot parts, no brass (Mosiah 8:10) no evidence of the listed Kings in BOM, no Jewish relics or Jewish Temples from supposed Jews, no metal plates like Nephites supposedly used, no middle eastern seeds growing, "which were brought from the land of Jerusalem ... and grew exceedingly" 1 Nephi 18:24 There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the Book of Mormon. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “The first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists” conceding 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77) CAN WE IGNORE THE LACK OF EVIDENCE FOR THE THE BOOK OF MORMON AND JUST TRUST OUR HEARTS AS TO THE TRUTH OF IT EVEN THOUGH IT CONFLICTS WITH THE BIBLE? NO! D&C Section 9:8-9 - tell us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you" The Bible warns us against this subjective type of truth test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be deceived. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL." The Scriptures, however, are infallible and can never be wrong (John 17:17; Psalm 119:128; 33:4; 19:8; Romans 3:4). This is why the Bible frequently urges us to study and meditate on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS have gone out into the world." Mormonism claims the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods . However, this is a PROVABLY FALSE claim. The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was corrupted and "plain and precious parts" were removed after the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and abominable church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Most Mormons believe this is the Catholic Church formed in the 4th century. Nephi claims this church was founded by the Devil (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively examine the Bible & BOM. BIBLE: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll, which is the oldest known copy of the Book of Isaiah dated to 180 BC. Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said. Also, if they had been corrupted, Jesus would have corrected scripture instead of affirming it! Jesus sd:“ I told you EVERYTHING written about me in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46) Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Joseph Smith was wrong. These scrolls pre-dated Catholics, and are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity". 1Nephi 13:25 LDS Apologist Wayne Ham admitted the Isaiah scroll does not support the the BOM. Apologist Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, of BYU, said the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Professor Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984) IS THE GOD OF THE BOOK OF MORMON THE SAME ONE AS IN THE BIBLE? NO! In the LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26) "Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of LDS members. Like Joseph Smith, this was the goal of Satan, to be like God and have worshipers. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God ... I will be like the Most High”’ (Isaiah 14:12-14) The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the book of John. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 150 AD, around the Apostle John's time) John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google) John 1:1 Joseph Smith translation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and NONE support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted. Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17) The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous. God is much greater than the humanoid of Mormonism and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS. Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "many wolves in sheep's clothing" will come trying to add to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and taught you can become a GOD. It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for the lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal God found in the bible. "The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269 Apostle Orson Pratt, in The Seer, page 172, “the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion was a Polygamist…the Messiah chose to take upon himself his seed; and by marrying many wives, … The son followed the example of his Father" God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, which is why he does tell us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version fails the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless.

@GodlessUkr 9 ай бұрын

Hey there! I'm an ex-Pentecostal Christian from Ukraine. The things you're talking about are so close to what I've experienced. Even though Mormonism is pretty far from Pentecostalism when it comes to doctrines, but holy s*** it's so similar in mindset! Almost identical! When feelings and anecdotes are considered as evidence... Totalitarian ideologies usually have the same ways of affecting people's emotional makeup.

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

It’s really is crazy! I have a Pentecostal friend out here in Utah and we have talked about the similarities. Thank you for the comment! I hope to maybe cross paths again one day.

@davidteeples2558 9 ай бұрын

Love your stuff thanks! Are you high or intoxicated when doing these videos by chance?

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

I’m always high on life. Other drugs, not so much. I am curious what makes you wonder that.

@davidteeples2558 9 ай бұрын

@ubermormon9611 i dont mean to hurt feelings. I really do enjoy your videos. I resonate with pretty much all of your thoughts and ideas and really appreciate your wisdom. It seems at times that your reactions are slightly delayed, slightly slurred speech, almost like you are really tired or high. Wondered if you used any drugs to help you relax or something is all.

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

Haha I am definitely tired and I talk too fast. Don’t worry I didn’t take offense to anything you said. I thought it was funny. Please comment more! I love the community here!

@Misnjef 5 ай бұрын

Appears possessed I would say

@LogicalKip 8 ай бұрын

Great video ! If you like Street Epistemology and think it's a good way to check if you're being fooled into something with no substance whatsoever, you should try it on things you believe about Jordan Peterson. Take any important claim you believe about him, and ask yourself what convinced you this is true, if it's reliable, and if you would use it for anyone.

@ubermormon9611 8 ай бұрын

I think that sounds like a fun idea. Do you have a suggestion off the top of your head? If not, thanks for the cool idea!

@LogicalKip 8 ай бұрын

@@ubermormon9611 I can't, because only you know what you believe. But since I saw him tagged even though he wasn't relevant to the video, I concluded some of his ideas/work must be pretty important to you. And since he often talks about complex, unusual, dare I say even foggy stuff, putting some clarity on what exactly you agree on and why, can be helpful and even fun.

@ubermormon9611 8 ай бұрын

@@LogicalKip oh I see where you are coming from. I talk about things he taught me the most in the Noah’s ark video I did. And the recent one with his name in the title. This could be a really fun video to make. I’ll have to think about it for a while:)

@LogicalKip 8 ай бұрын

@@ubermormon9611 If you ever do, reach out to the SE community, they would love to see content like that and are starved of content creators lately. Maybe one of them could even do the interview. I hope you get more subscribers ! You have potential.

@moonman5543 9 ай бұрын

I always recommend the book, "the phantom God" by john c Wathey. He provides a viable nueropsych theory for religious phenomena such as testimony. He relates a testimony of heavenly parents to the phenomena of a phantom limb using an innate neuropsychological model of "mother". It is a highly recommended read by me for former mormons to reconcile testimony with doubts.

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

That sounds awesome! Thank you for putting that rec here!

@moonman5543 9 ай бұрын

It helped me a lot when leaving the church after experiencing a testimony

@moonman5543 9 ай бұрын

Here is a good video with his theory if you're interested. He actually references a research or Mormon testimonies kzbin.info1PX3ugV9Crk?si=AXskUdJwKGxYzEql

@cinnamondan4984 9 ай бұрын

As a member of the church who converted and never had a TBM moment I never understood what it is like to take everything literally. My wife and I are devoted to the church and God but we see the church as more of a vehicle rather than the vehicle. When we say that the church is true we don’t feel we are being disingenuous but we certainly don’t mean it the same way that many do. I can understand what it must be like to be a TBM and then read something like the CES letter…must be like bait and switch.

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

It did feel that way. I have often said that if I had been raised to be a literal believer, the church may have been a healthy place for me to remain. Thanks for an understanding comment.

@darrylkirky 9 ай бұрын

My greatest hit with holyghost in lds church bare testimony and pray benediction by me with apostle present was my grace conversion and a coffie etc before attended church and apposite thanked me for having holyghost that touched the hearts of many

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

You have the benediction while an apostate was attending your ward? Which apostle was it?

@darrylkirky 9 ай бұрын

Apostle haight. Who even personally wrote back to me as I see him off at airport and kissed his wife. Just proves the power of grace that is the Christian way to serve got not earning or becoming worthy of grace but a free gift. The great secret is no secret at all but christian lds most are not to answer to man pope or prophets for they have no power over me. The gospel of love sufficient and most respond to love and light and if ask me my radiant secret I bare testimony of grace and leaf many lds to the cross glory to God not me.some bishops stop me from such testimony of grace and testifying of the power and blood of jesus christ.such Pharisee self rightous leaders I rebuke if try manipulate or control me. My humility is in serving christ not man.thankyou friend for your comment. Bless you.

@plumbersteve 9 ай бұрын

Waitaminute. Am I supposed to keep my grass tall during winter?

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

Apparently the answer is short. Like two inches is a good height. It’s also not a bad time to put down a fall fertilizer. Usually something with a high percentage of quick release nitrogen.

@Post-MoMitch 9 ай бұрын

That video of Applewhite was also a HUGE shelf weight for me. When I was in my dark night of the soul, I prayed to God asking him to give me a sign. The Spirit told me it wasn't true... 6 months later I was out for good.

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

What was it like to receive a spiritual witness that the church wasn’t true? I bet the next 6 months felt very strange.

@Post-MoMitch 9 ай бұрын

@@ubermormon9611 it was what finally allowed me to look at the critical side of Mormonism to find the objective truth. One of the hardest things I had to do, but so worth it. Officially removed my records just 4 months ago, and life is good! But yes, it was strange and hard. For those 6 months I tried to be "nuanced" or PIMO but I couldn't do it for very long. Glad my wife was willing to learn what I learned, otherwise a mixed faith marriage would have been tough to do.

@LogicalKip 8 ай бұрын

The spirit told you that the spirit doesn't exist ?

@Post-MoMitch 8 ай бұрын

@@LogicalKip the spiritual feeling that I've always been taught was "the spirit" told me that the church wasn't true. Then I started to critically think about that, how could it testify of truth and give me conflicting answers? Didn't make sense. Once I was able to recognize that I can often control that Spiritual feeling it made more sense why I was getting conflicting answers. Since removing my records, I still feel "the gift of the holy ghost" all the time. The church teaches that's not possible, as that gift is reserved for members. So yeah... It's all BS

@FearAndTrembling 9 ай бұрын

The first example you used about Mormon prayers for answers made me think of Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things," and it's clear why other Christians have major issues including Mormons under the label of Christian.

@FearAndTrembling 9 ай бұрын

The missionaries at the end even divide faith from reason! The majority of theologians for the last 2000 years have said the opposite because Jesus is Logos. Ugh, Mormons....

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

That clip was particularly interesting to me because it felt like they were trying to explain the value that Mormonism puts on faith. I’ve said very frequently that the more evidence AGAINST your claim in Mormonism, the more virtuous you are for claiming to have faith.

@FriendOfChrist 9 ай бұрын

I'm one of those Christians who would never label mormonism as Christian. Christianity has much evidence for it's claims, mormonism has none. I'm thinking of scholars like Dr. Gary Habermas, Dr. Mike Licona, and Dr. William Lane Craig when it comes to evidence. However, there are many more great apologists that cover evidence. For the most part, it was the evidence that convinced me and brought me to my knees.

@FearAndTrembling 9 ай бұрын

@@ubermormon9611 My degrees are in philosophy, and that kind of Kantian/deontological approach to the faith annoys me too. It's not more moral because it was hard, and it's not better faith if it's nonsense.

@BeaversAndDucks 9 ай бұрын

Have your political views changed since leaving religion? No need to be specific, just curious. I live in Utah for a bit and was always so frustrated with the blatant mixing of religion and government. I remember a city counselor (or something like that) saying how he serves God and a constituent replied he wasn’t elected to serve God, he was elected to serve his constituents.

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

They did change at first when the pendulum first swung. Since then, I have moderated and become much more of a centrist with some views remaining center-right. It is a weird mixing on religion and politics here for sure.

@BeaversAndDucks 9 ай бұрын

I truly find it fascinating how people do so little self reflection. I grew up in a very religious family, but I cannot remember a time I truly believed in a higher power. Idk if it how my brain is wired, but from a very young age I always had these questions, and I never felt comfortable with the idea that my family’s beliefs were actual truth and I should follow suit only because I was born into it. At times, I honestly envy people who can have such confidence in something based on feelings.

@sarahpinho1114 6 ай бұрын

From a very young age I was trained by my parents and church leaders to bear my testimony in church and say that I knew the church was true. Of course I didn't know it, but I was supposed to say it. After years of conditioning it felt wrong to not say it, because everyone else was. As a missionary of course I said it.. if I didn't I'd be sent home as a disgrace. I wanted to know it and convinced myself I did. Of course I regret saying it, and have since then changed my belief system. If someone wants to accuse me of lying I can honestly say I was doing what I thought was right, and above all am grateful to no longer be in an organization where I'm pressured to say whether I know anything to be true.

@ubermormon9611 6 ай бұрын

If you don’t know it’s true, say it until you know it!

@sarahpinho1114 6 ай бұрын

@@ubermormon9611 haha yeah exactly

@karenschmidt965 8 ай бұрын

Why do LDS not pray about the D & C and P of GP

@ubermormon9611 8 ай бұрын

Why do they use prayer at all when it is such a bad way to figure out what is true? They are currently using a slippery slope fallacy method. The method is this, if the Book of Mormon is true; it’s All true. I think you bring up a good point because each new thing is a new claim that should be independently verified.

@charlespalmer5014 9 ай бұрын

I have borne my testimony many times in my life, but I have never been my testimony believing that absolutely everything in the church is true. Anyone who does is foolish to do so. Human beings are not capable of paying attention to every single thing all the time. What we do is pick and choose the things that bring joy to lives, and help us improve ourselves. Then there are the things outside the doctrines of the church, the people. In order for people to be emotionally safe and healthy. We have to set boundaries. The LDS church does not like boundaries, or having people be critical of it. It is important for mankind to have the freedom to speak. People at church should never be offended by somebody who disagrees with something a church leader says! It's called the first amendment. If we truly believe that the constitution is a divinely inspired document then church leaders need to be tolerant of critical speech. The other thing about people is the inherent ugliness of them. No one should trust a bishop they don't. Nobody I go to church with is worthy of my trust until they earn my trust! We should only trust people in incremental stages. We definitely shouldn't trust somebody because of their title. Nobody at church should ever be concerned about other people's, I can have a testimony of the book of Mormon but not have a testimony of paying tithing. There are no absolutes in this world, except for birth and death.

@brettpinion4233 8 ай бұрын

@TtotheMIM 9 ай бұрын

Here's a counter-argument for you to consider: What if you started your objection from the wrong perspective? You've stated your concern on the fact that some Mormons have a "testimony" of the truthfulness of their church that's based in "feelings". Understanding that "feelings" is not the official description of what a testimony is or comes from, what if these people are just being people. People hate being left out of what others are experiencing. FOMO is a perfect example of this. Wouldn't it be possible that the source of a religious testimony is something else, but everyone who wants to fit in only knows how to do it with feelings? Also, are you using a video of 19-year old volunteers as an official stance of the Mormon church as a whole? I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that their training for this is only 3 weeks long. Why are you arguing with them? That was just weird.

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

When you say feelings is NOT what a testimony comes from, what are you suggesting it comes from? I don’t see how it could be anything other than feelings. I don’t not think that the earnestness of a feeling equals truthfulness of that claim in reality. As for the missionary clip. They are simply parroting preach my gospel which was written by the leaders of the organization. They are also parroting Moroni’s promise which comes from the corner stone of the religion. I don’t feel like it is a misrepresentation of the way the church leaders have taught the missionaries to help people gain a testimony that “the Book of Mormon is true and the church that claims it is also the one true church.”

@TtotheMIM 9 ай бұрын

@@ubermormon9611 Testimony is not inherently a religious word; it's functional in that we can use it to identify a type of person (a witness). To have a testimony is to be able to stand as a witness of something. It's the same as for a witness in a courtroom. They testify of something that they've seen, heard, felt, smelt 😂, etc. To give your testimony is to share an experience that you had. It doesn't really matter what your emotional feelings are on the subject...unless your testimony is that you had emotional feelings on a subject. That would be a lackluster "testimony", which may be exactly what you're describing. It sounds less like you were deceived and more like you were just seeing people ignorantly do it wrong.

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

I understand your point about testimony is court and I think it is a good one. In a religious context, since no one has seen, felt, heard or smelt God or Jesus, a testimony is a feeling. Have you been Mormon before? Because this is very commonly how the word is used in a Mormon context. I also made a point to mention that I am talking about the “Mormon conception of testimonies” at the beginning of the video.

@TtotheMIM 9 ай бұрын

@@ubermormon9611 I appreciate the thoughtfulness in your replies. Unfortunately, that's not usually the norm for these types of conversations. I am not a Mormon, but I strive to be a seeker of truth wherever it can be found. This is what I've found as I ask myself honest questions: Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that the Mormons are right. That means that there is a God that we used to live with. We agreed to follow his plan, which meant that we would forget him while we went into something resembling a simulation (I'm not saying that's what's happening by the way), and we would do our best to be good and kind and loving to each other. Throughout time, God calls prophets to orient his followers to help make the world a better place. Just say that were true... How would you know? Put another way, you're in a room with a door. You're told that there's somebody on the other side of this door. The person on the other side of the door follows the exact same rules as the Mormon ideology of God. How could you know that there's somebody over there? The concept of faith would just be the starting point. That's where "feelings" come in. That would be the beginnings of understanding to strive to find whether or not something's true. However, testimony has to be knowledge. It can't be just a feeling. Testimony is a fulfillment of faith. So how do you build a testimony on something you only have faith on?

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

@@TtotheMIM this is very interesting for me because I agree with everything you are saying. This is the problem with Mormon testimonies. They are claims that people make that are based on feelings and on faith. As a person who was deeply Mormon for the first 23 years on my life I am telling you that the way I am describing Mormon testimonies is the way that word is used in Mormon churches from Utah to Scotland and Peru (at least three different places I have attended Mormon church). You are right, a testimony shouldn’t be based in feelings. You are right, a testimony is a proclamation of concrete knowledge. Mormons don’t quite see it that way. For them, testimonies are a thing they know “spiritually” that can only be known “spiritually”. How did they arrive at that knowledge? The Holy Ghost made them feel something and they took that as an answer to a question. I disagree with it as much as you do. That is how they see it and why I made this video.

@chrewtransformation 9 ай бұрын

20:36 No they didn't have freewill, it was "bounded choice." Sounds like what is taught in the Book of Mormon when it says you're free to choose eternal life or eternal damnation. It's simple. Black and white. And Mormonism has all the power, truth, authority and answers. Just be exactly obedient to the church leaders and you'll be saved in the highest degree of heaven 🤦‍♂️

@ubermormon9611 9 ай бұрын

That along with the fact the church no longer claims that we have “free agency” now they call it “Moral agency”. Bounded choice is a better description of moral agency.

@chrewtransformation 9 ай бұрын

@@ubermormon9611 oh yeah good point