Top Duskmourn Cards | Commander Clash Podcast 165

[@EdBurke37]

MaRo has said before that black getting tertiary access to enchantment removal was done primarily because enchantments only had two colors that could deal with them on the board while artifacts had three and they were doing more enchantment focused sets so they needed another color to have that ability. It's not a color pie break, it's a color pie expansion.

[@Welverin]

Also, black was the only color not able to deal with artifacts or enchantments, which was a glaring weakness.

[@isaacbuddy]

Crim's love for sword of body and mind has to be the best running bit on this channel. Almost entirely because it's not a bit.

[@breaky92]

out of all people, richard saying kona dies to removal is kinda ironic isnt it

[@drkatz1192]

This better get most votes. Man advocates for not playing spot removal, then says people will hand removal up and ready turn 3.

[@ForgetfulPaladin]

Crim looks like he belongs in this set

[@bhoare843]

Crim, The Devious

[@SWAT6809]

RICHARD, not every scary card is a combopiece that will get you killed IMMEDIATELY and will be hit by the single target removal that you DO NOT EVEN RUN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[@francisbacon223]

He's really gotta come up with a better take than this same thing every single week. Why even cast a single permanent if it just dies to removal? Why even cast spells? Why even play Magic? You'll just be interacted with. Better to just sit at the table with no deck just to be safe.

[@Tangart88]

Richard: i don't like spot removal Also Richard: Kona is bad because it dies to spot removal

[@RBGolbat]

Yeah, everyone else’s spot removal.

[@AxillaryPower2]

@@Tangart88 no, no, no, you miss understand. Richard doesn't like *playing* spot removal.

[@redram9]

Richard is right here though - who is playing Monster Manual or Elvish Piper these days? A 4 mana creature that needs to wait a turn to cheat something into play is to slow, and if it needs deck support for tapping, that is going to cut back on your ability to drop in huge threats. And whatever you drop in with Kona arrives post combat, so unless you are splashing red (and therefore not playing Kona in the command zone), you aren't going to attack with whatever you cheated in. A board wipe will ruin Kona's day over and over, even if spot removal isn't being played.

[@SlipDoodle]

@@redram9 I'd agree with you on all those points cause you're right when playing "Magic" but in commander (at least in the majority of pods I've seen both online and irl) people are way too lenient with the green decks and tend to let them do what they want. People start focusing a blue player for playing one counterspell but think that ramping to 5 lands turn 3 is AOK. I know "just play removal" is kind of a meme to most people but in very casual pods people really just don't play interaction. It's a lot of buidling board states until someone seems "too crazy" then someone boardwipes and then everyone races to rebuild. Thing is with the Kona player they'll reach critical mass on their lands by then so it doesn't matter they'll rebuild faster than the other players. And if you do run enough interaction to deal with everything you've then made yourself "look like" the problem and then you have no resources to face down the entire table cause they think you have all the answers. Again logically you're right removal and boardwipes wreck Kona, but commander players just don't play enough of them for it to impact the player with a billion mana. Can you tell I'm a little jaded with green decks lol (a little jaded with commander in general). That being said I'm definitely gonna build this lol sometimes it's nice just turning brain off, 5 forests turn 2, stomp stomp stomp.

[@casteanpreswyn7528]

​@@SlipDoodle I mean, in my experience the player with green in their identity is automatically enemy number one. Then again, I play Jolrael mld, so maybe that's on me. Lol

[@imaginarymatter]

The real manifest dread is Richard saying all my favorite cards from the set are bad because they die to Farewell.

[@EmbeJuicemazzopazzo]

top comment or this community is worthless

[@thedoritoviking]

Every single week!

[@jamesday123456]

I'm eight minutes in he hasn't said it yet. Will give an update.

[@tomdoetsch8603]

“That dies to removal, must be bad”

[@jamesday123456]

The twist Seth said it first

[@OstrichSoup]

A point in favor or The Mindskinner is that the way its worded, if you were to somehow ping each opponent for 1 damage with it on the field, then each of them would mill 3 cards. Since its effect prevents that 1 damage for each opponent and makes all opponents mill once for each damage prevented, then that would happen thrice in total milling each opponent for 3. Not sure how relevant that is, but it feels like a strong interaction

[@combatwombat8742]

It would be good with the new giggling skitterspike then

[@hectorrivera7452]

In a face-down deck, if you manifest Abhorrent Occulus, you can just pay 3 mana to flip it face up. You never actually have to exile cards from your graveyard!

[@mjhenkel1984]

ooh good call!

[@KVGKQuake]

They missed this interation on a previous podcast during previews

[@ajneubs]

Is Crim the only one who understands theme? If you’re a mill deck you mill em out, that’s the point of the deck.

[@alexandercurnell1142]

My question for Seth is this: do you cut generous gift, stroke of midnight, beast within, or chaos warp for withering torment? Do you run it outside of grixis? If the answer is no, then its not a beast within. That's one of the first cards people slot in *any* deck with green. I only slot in withering torment if I'm *not* in white or green already.

[@baconsir1159]

I probably wouldn't even play it in Grixis, you have both Chaos Warp and Cyclonic Rift

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

@@baconsir1159 I would still put it in grixis over feed the swarm

[@baconsir1159]

@@JamesCooley-q8b Well yeah, but I wouldn’t run Feed the Swarm in grixis either.

[@santiproductions9318]

@@baconsir1159 i play feed the swarm in grixis, but the commander is Marchesa so helps me get off the throne

[@DarthChocolate15]

I might run it in a GB deck alongside Beast Within... if I couldn't run any multicolored spells for some reason.

[@nonames6179]

Dying to instant speed removal is not a measure of a cards power level. Nadu dies to instant speed removal, hullbreacher dies to instant removal, bowmaster dies to removal. All of those cards are busted. It feels no different from saying smothering tithe or rhystic study is bad because it gets countered by almost all of the efficient counter spells.

[@Kestral287]

Eh... sort of. So in general, you're largely correct. However, it's telling that two of the three cards you named only die to instant speed removal after doing something. Kona can get sniped and you get nothing for it. I think the card is better than it's getting credit for from them, mind, because the window is pretty narrow to only instant speed interaction (presuming you're set up appropriately with a tapper, which is pretty trivial), but there are absolutely degrees of 'dies to Doom Blade' and some creatures die to it much more painfully than others.

[@nonames6179]

@@Kestral287 Bowmaster gets you an incosequential ping + amass and then can get immediately removed. You can kill a hull breacher immediately after it resolves before it has a chance to trigger same with nadu. None of them are that impactful unless they resolve and stick around to trigger. Same as Kona. That being said I'm not saying that those cards are comparable to kona, she is no where near their power level. I'm just giving examples of cards that die to instant speed removal that are still amazing. My point is that dying to removal is a bad benchmark for a cards power. There is an answer to almost everything in the game. Efficient removal is everywhere in magic now

[@ezraezra666]

​@Kestral287 Psychic Frog, Murktide Regent, and MH3 Tamiyo are all good examples of dominant threats that have no inherent protection and have to attack to get any benefit, but are still insane.

[@AdelaarGD]

For hedge shredder, Richard was really focused on incidental value, just wanted to say surveiling a land into the grave yward would also put it on the battlefield

[@nickp465]

Hedge shredder is gonna be an auto include in Yuma, the new desert commander. With Yuma, hedge shredder, and an altar of dementia, you’ll most likely be able to mill most of your deck and get all your lands into play with an army of 4/2 plants!

[@ColdSake00]

Richard: you don't need flying you can just attack someone open to flip dowsing dagger Also Richard: Kona won't ever cheat something in on turn 4 cause spot removal and it's hard to tap it.

[@Shimatzu95]

To be fair i started running dowsing dagger in agressive decks because of richard and there is (almost) always someone open early on and on later turn you probably have something with evasion.

[@Shawn-f3x]

Yes, because Rishkar, Peema Renegade and Cryptolith Rite (Which just got a new redundant version) aren’t two of the most commonly played cards in Green. Slap that 3-drop tap-for-a-bunch of Green aura on Kona and call it a day. Know a guy obsessed with Calix that is going to make me hate the very sight of Kona, and that’s cool. “Boring” is one of the most subjective terms in the English language.

[@casteanpreswyn7528]

​@@Shawn-f3x I literally don't know a single person in my playgroup or at my lgs who has both of those in green decks. Lol

[@Shawn-f3x]

@@casteanpreswyn7528 Wasn’t saying they’re generally played together. Just that both are very frequently played Green cards.

[@casteanpreswyn7528]

@@Shawn-f3x fair enough.

[@Kestral287]

Regarding black and enchantments: look at it from the other direction. What deals with the main permanent types? White removes artifacts, enchantments, and creatures (with downside unless it's with sweepers). Green removes artifacts, enchantments, and creatures (conditionally and with risk). Red removes artifacts and creatures. Black removes creatures. Blue removes anything, but only with countermagic or temporarily. Excluding blue from the topic then, three colors remove artifacts, four remove creatures (but one generally poorly), but only two enchantments. And enchantments are a very powerful card type, in part because they're hard to deal with. So adding more ways to interact with enchantments feels like a desirable thing to do. Conversely, black is the color that removes the fewest things. If we want to expand a color's removal identity to cover another type, black is very much the natural one to expand. This is just a natural blending of those two points. Add another answer to the hardest to interact with type and put it in the color that interacts with the least types.

[@danielsniff6405]

Strong agree. Plus black is the evil color, and enchantments are the most whimsical type (besides kindred, I guess) imo. Makes sense that the cynical color would be able to destroy their greatest foe.

[@LunaLasceria]

Yeah I don't really understand what Seth's argument against it is besides "As it has always been, so shall it must always be." Which, like, no. The Color Pie does not need to be an immovable object set it stone, never to be improved upon. There's a difference between unintentional Color Pie breaks because WotC fucked up and intentional changes to the Color Pie that the design team has no doubt discussed and deliberated over in detail. No, black getting enchantment removal does not mean that "The Color Pie has no meaning anymore!" as Seth has been known to hyperbolically catastrophize. It's fine.

[@Slippils]

There are also planeswalkers to keep in mind, which black can remove, but even in this it isn't unique as white and red have plenty of options as well.

[@Kestral287]

@@Slippils I don't put a lot of stock in walker removal because every color gets to do that via creatures. Like, you're not wrong, but it's far from unique - and also notable that Green has at least three specialized walker-killing creatures and probably more than that - the three are just the ones I know off-hand - so you probably need to include it as a walker-killing color and now we're back to "everything but blue, who has counters and bounce effects so also blue". Black *is* one of two colors that can kill a battle (outside of permanent/nonland permanent effects), but as that's across like two total cards, one black and one green, also not something I put stock in.

[@baconsir1159]

Not to mention Blue can definitely kill things permanently now. Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, Reality Shift, Resculpt, Ravenform, etc

[@zeroisnine]

Richard's Creatures: Just play after the 2nd wrath and win the game! Everyone Else's Creatures (according to Richard): They die to a board wipe! SUBSCRIBE ON PATERON FOR MORE INSIGHTS

[@zeroisnine]

Abhorrent is good though

[@MrGeoghagan]

The Richard special. Your thing is bad because it dies to removal before it can do anything, but mine is good despite having the exact same issue.

[@thebobbybabbitt7703]

Hexproof = dies to edict Indestructible = dies to exile No keywords = dies to anything So by Richards logic, don't play creatures, because they can be removed. Lol got it.

[@KVGKQuake]

You Can't play anything but planeswalkers and battles, cuz Farewell exists

[@Mecal00]

Crim is correct about Mindskinner, it's a great card. I have a Bruvac deck and mill is a legit way to end the game. If you can buff Mindskinner you can start milling everyone quickly. Plus you can have Bruvac in the 99. Plenty of protection spells, shroud effects, etc Edit 22:48 "just remember when I hit you I want to hear 'yes chef'." 😂

[@user-tx2mu3cr2o]

I feel like the important bit with fractured realm is like, it pays you off immediately as long as you have ANY engine on board. Like if you have a new admiral brass or something on board already, you're off to the races. It really turbos whatever you already got out and whatever you play later. It feels good for seven mana

[@melind82]

The first green put stuff into play card I can think of is elvish piper and nobody uses it because it has too many dependencies. Kona is better since it can go to the command zone and can place any permanent, but I think it'll be pretty rare to see.

[@danielsniff6405]

It's funny, I don't remember them talking about Eladamri kormecdal like that at all, even though it can also be your commander, requires basically the same amount of cards, is cheaper to cast, and has way more upside. Sure, it needs to survive a turn, but the ability to play cards off the top of your library more than makes up for it, imo.

[@DCode504]

Seth's "Black doesn’t need a Beast Within" cracked me up. Firstly, it's much much worse than Beast Within (hits 2 types of permanents rather than all 6). Secondly, Beast Within is a much more outrageous color pie break* that Seth, for some reason, has no problem with. *green having targeted creature and planeswalker removal at the same manacost as black is ridiculous

[@gretchling5012]

ah yes, beast within, from the famously color-pie-adhering New Phyrexia...

[@Alkhemia8]

green get everything it fine that just how it works for commander the other colors have to have downsides

[@casteanpreswyn7528]

​@@Alkhemia8 Beast Within literally has a downside. You give the controller another creature.

[@Alkhemia8]

@@casteanpreswyn7528 oh no a random 2/2 so scary and impactful it not a real downside unless your casting it on literal trash don't be silly

[@casteanpreswyn7528]

@@Alkhemia8 it is still a downside, even if it never becomes a threat. They now have sac fodder, they have a chump blocker, they can convoke with it, they can attack with it, they can use it to draw cards off of like 4k+ cards that are creature based draw. It isn't just "destroy target permanent" it *has* a downside. Acting as if it doesn't is just blatantly lying.

[@wintersmonologue]

I'm with Richard on Oculus. That card is insane. It's not toxril but it's gonna put in work. Odd card advantage and graveyard push. Love it.

[@BuckysKnifeFlip]

I feel like Oculus is going to be much better than people give it credit for.

[@zeroisnine]

​@@BuckysKnifeFlipit's fine. The reality is at the point Richard wants to play it, lots of things can win the game, but earlier than that it has playabilty issues.

[@gemyniraptor8626]

Seth fully embracing the troll to call any card Crim likes as a Stax piece, to make him tilted is the best new character arc of this universe

[@mashedmentality]

Crim please play Mindskinner and show them just how fast they can lose their whole library

[@UberNinjaNerd]

God, Seth's face while they are hyping up Withering Torment is absolutely priceless. I think Wizard's should give black a real Beast Within, then Withering Torment will be fine. All the others have a functional Vindicate. Red has Chaos Warp, Green & Beast Within, White & Generous Gift, Blue & Commit//Memory.

[@valun360]

I love Richard's takes cause they make me think more criticality about the game. However he says dies at instant speed a lot for someone so outspoken against spot removal.

[@RyuPlaneswalker]

Seth : "Should Black just have Ancestral Vision if it causes you to lose life" Necropetence says Hello Necrodominence Says Hello Sign in Blood Says Hello. Draw Cards and Lose life has been a thing in Black like forever, Could they print B : Draw 3 cards lose *Insert amount of life that would make it not busted* and it would absolutely not be a color pie break, I do not think it would be a good idea unless like you lost 8 life but they could do it and it would not be a pie break.

[@danielsniff6405]

Lose 13 life, because 13

[@troacctid]

Enchantment removal is in-color for black and has been for a long time now. Black has gotten a new enchantment removal spell at least once per year since as far back as 2019. This is like the tenth one. It's no different from vigilance in blue and once-per-turn card draw in white.

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

Yup

[@nicolasperrin4518]

To be fair the difference here is that it's a playable card, which is the first new one since Feed the Swarm, doubling the number of enchantment removal you'd have in mono black. Pretty big deal!

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

This is the second good one though, behind Feed the Swarm. Outside of those two cards black occasionally has gotten enchantment edits going back to 2019, which seems like about the right power level for black enchantment removal if it needs to exist.

[@baconsir1159]

1:03:48 - This argument falls apart when you realize bounce spells can hit anything, for extremely cheap. Not to mention it implies that Withering Torment will see play in 60 card, lol.

[@xxthevampirate]

Hedge shredder goes in every golgari and sultai deck. Green and black without using a graveyard is quite common.

[@leonjakobsen272]

I thought this at first too, but remember it only works with milling. Would you play it in something like Meren?

[@LordoftheSandwiches]

Isn’t meatloaf massacre on the field and Gary + saw in half like 32 damage to the table and you gain 96? Something like that anyway depending on how the triggers stack.

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

Yes it is a very good card

[@JimPea]

I like Kona for Henzie. You're already playing a deck with a bunch of big creatures, you can Blitz out Kona so it has haste, and you're not that sad if it dies because that's what was going to happen end of turn anyway.

[@Kestral287]

Eh, Henzie's had easy access to Fanatic of Rhonas for a while and it's... only okay. Even new Ghalta is pretty underwhelming in that deck.

[@Supermanisdeadman]

Richard: instant speed targetted removal sucks Richard: Kona dies to instant speed targetted removal

[@cruthius6154]

Mirror Room/Fractured Realm is an auto included in my Gyruda commander deck. I play clones and Panharmonicon in the deck. This adds both.

[@daneburke6592]

Ya, great there. I’m excited for it in my yarok the desecrated deck. Cloning big etb creatures that get double triggers is very strong

[@CouchtrollPodcastDS]

I’m on team Mind Skinner. Has a ton of flexibility for different deck types. I’m going blue mill and I will be using legend breaking clone effects and a few stax pieces to protect myself. Question: is the mill effect rather than damage a triggered ability?

[@danielsniff6405]

It's a replacement effect

[@ashsattva]

Great hearing the discussion as always!

[@crimsonleg4237]

People underestimate mill, and highly overestimate how often somebody will have access to their graveyard all game. Plus, there are many artifacts that can prevent people from accessing their graveyards.

[@Kestral287]

That sort of thing is hard to judge because it varies wildly between local metas. Last FNM I sat down with a mill deck and at the point he was lining up his first Petitioners mill, all three of his opponents had reanimation face up on the board.

[@ness81092]

The hedge shredder for my Necrobloom is chef kiss

[@Gweezy12]

I actually think hedge shredder is actively cannibalistic to the necrobloom. Ah mean maybe if you're just playing like abzan landfall. Mine sorta utilizes cycle lands to generate a huge graveyard and return everything all at once.

[@keithwynn8390]

The color pie is not an immutable object! Enchantment removal is a calculated, intentional addition to Black's suite of abilities to bring enchantments in line with artifacts having three colors they're weak to. The future is now, Old Man Seth!

[@dannyhightower2712]

Richard: Kona just dies and you can't expect to untap with it past one turn. Richard: Abhorrent Oculus is an army in a can that just sits out and makes facedown 2/2s that could be a powerful creature.

[@WizardLogic]

Surprised you guys didn't mention Entity Tracker in this. A mono blue enchantress is sneakily very powerful, and empowers the niche of pillowfort over traditional enchantress strategies.

[@mariahanover9335]

Their criteria for evaluating cards is driving me crazy. Every single card someone says, "Would you jam it in a random deck though?" I wasn't aware that's how people built commander decks. I thought you were supposed to build a deck that works with itself, not play 100 independently good cards that win the game by themselves. Every card should be evaluated in the deck it wants to be in, not is it good in every deck in existence. They act like if a card isn't rhystic study then it's bad.

[@SlipDoodle]

But that is how you evaluate a cards power. They're not saying these cards aren't powerful in their archetypes they're looking at them and how "meta" a card is. So yeah of course these cards in their respective decks are gonna be good, but when evaluating cards like how they do it you're looking at how splashable/jammable/whatever a card is on it's own in any deck. Thus the whole argument with Razorkin Needlehead and evaluating it as a hate card for draw. They're not saying if it's not a staple it's bad but this is what this podcast is about is finding the possible staples, not just good cards that go with their archetypes. I get what you're saying but that's just not the point of this particular pod ya know?

[@PolGamesOnTwitch]

I think they are mention that more like "is this something like Cyclonic Riff", a powerful card that could be in any blue deck. I don't think that double red ping dude it's good in any deck, but for sure a 2 mana "first strike" (only in your turn) pingy-on-draw it's really good, because, if that creature eat a spot removal, then the other powerful creatures in your deck are more safe for the focus. PS: and gonna jam it in my Nekusar deck for sure LUL

[@radiantburrito]

There are currently 4 black cards that destroy enchantments without an additional color investment. They are Feed the Swarm, Ghastly Death Tyrant, Shatter the Oath, and now Withering Torment. Just thought it was a good thing to bring up. ;)

[@Shawn-f3x]

By the logic in support of Withering Torment, Beast Within is not only not a pie-break for Green, we should keep getting more Instant speed creature Spot Removal, just so long as it’s not as good as White and Black’s best versions.

[@thetrinketmage]

I'm with Seth! Withering torment is my least favorite card in the set! Black already has discard, unconditional creature removal, and unconditional tutors! This is mortify in mono black! I think we need color pie restrictions for the long term health of the game

[@DCode504]

Love your videos, but do you use the same logic in regards to Beast Within? For some reason, green has instant speed targeted planeswalker and creature removal at the same rate of mana as black and no one is ever outraged about it existing while many complain about black enchantment removal. How does that make sense? Besides: There are maybe 2 commander playable discard spells in black, as evidenced by the Commander crew not even remembering discard existed when they ranked colors by the unique things they offered, so your list reduces to: targeted creature removal and tutors (frowned upon by many casual players). To be fair, it also has reanimation and sac synergies, but still

[@DylanHunter64]

​@@DCode504Notably, WotC has said that Beast Within is actually a color pie break. However, I think Torment is totally fine

[@thetrinketmage]

@@DCode504 I would argue beast within is a color pie break. Green get's to do almost everything these days and I'm not a huge fan of it. And yes there are not that many good discard spells for edh, but that doesn't mean wizards can't make some that are!

[@kermitdafrog444]

They should print a multiplayer thought seize: B, sorcery, look at any number of opponents hand. Choose up to one nonland card from each that they discard. Lose 2 life for each card discarded this way

[@Schiggy819]

Hedge shredder is wild, going to be the sole reason I revisit my self mill ramp tasigur deck. It was the first edh deck I built entirely from scratch. Can’t wait to get it together.

[@InOzWeTrust]

57:45 Richard lost count of targetted enchantment removal in mono Black they had a 5 mana disenchant in Eldraine 2.

[@IcyShyGuy]

The whole "dies to removal" is a pretty unhelpful argument imo

[@gamepro_awsome2948]

Psa to everyone you can kill people with mind-skinner by using dress down :). (You attack after they declared no blocks flash in dress down and now your 10/1 deals 10 dmg)

[@RasmusVJS]

People who complain about black having had enchantment removal be part of their color identity for a while now don't seem to be very consistent. The Color Pie is constantly evolving, but I never hear people complain about Blue having Vigilance, even though that would also have been a color pie break until recently. And no color had access to Rooms until Duskmourne, but I don't see people complain about that now being accessible to every color. But clearly everything that doesn't comply with the color pie from back in Alpha is a design mistake.

[@LunaLasceria]

Truly, the epitome of being a Boomer is not liking change just because it's change.

[@tomdoetsch8603]

While I didn’t build Yuriko, I built a number of Dimir decks from Zombies to Faeries and more but I have settled on Marvo 😂 and it’s so fun

[@baconsir1159]

I’d play Mirror Room in the Obeka, Splitter of Seconds. Fractured Realms doubles both Obeka’s damage trigger and all the upkeep triggers

[@bortron5000]

Richard comparing Crim brewing the Mindskinner to a Michelin starred restaurant was *chefs kiss*. Yes chef!

[@AxillaryPower2]

On Overlord of the Hauntwoods, "this is best in Enchantress and Token decks." Sounds *perfect* for my Anikthea populate enchantment deck!

[@thatepicwizardguy]

easiest (only?) ways to unlock a room outside of paying -> Ghostly Dancers on enter. Ghostly Keybearer on combat damage to player. Keys to the House mana tap sac. Marina Vendrell on tap. That's not many at all... fractured realm is probably not really happening. You might be able to pull it off in blue-green without a lot of issues or in a heavy artifact deck where you can make the cost not so much of a cost. Otherwise it's probably just a copy effect which has fake upside to a spell you'll never cast later.

[@yesimchar]

all i can say Richard is that hedge shredder goes insane in my mycotyrant deck.

[@srob127]

Overlord of the Hauntwoods is interesting. Wouldn't Bello, Bard of the Brambles allow it to attack the turn it comes down? 2 Lands in turn and a possible card. Doesn't seem terrible for 1GG in that specific case.

[@daneburke6592]

Yup! Seems great there. Same thing with the red one in bello

[@REWASDFGHJ]

Hedge Shredder fits in TONS of decks. Gitrog, Muldrotha, Meren, Jarad, Izoni, Stickfingers, Nethroi, Kethis, Anikthea, Sidisi, Teneb, Hazezon, Soul of Windrace, Slimefoot and Squee, Mimeoplasm, Necrobloom, Grolnok, Zask, Karador, Tayam, Slogurk, Flip Grist, Walker Grist, Colfenor, Storrev, Yuma, Amzu, Disa, Dogmeat, Kathril, WG Kellan, Tocasia, Swarmreaver, Winter (both)

[@totakekeslider3835]

The Mycotyrant, Coram, Mothman… pretty much any deck with Golgari in it ever.

[@oldpoetmen]

Totally agree about the state of Green. It used to be my favorite color in Magic for a bit, and I liked how even its limitations were perfectly flavorful; for instance, I loved that fight spells were cool payoffs for having large creatures, or you could sacrifice a smaller creature or one with Deathtouch for removal when needed. Now, with direct damage “bite” effects removing the need to risk your creatures (and obnoxiously turning into mono-G Murders with Deathtouch), tons of card draw, and even as much Exile-based enchantment and artifact removal as White for some reason, it feels like this soupy Do Everything color that doesn’t have an identity beyond just “the color that is good at Magic.”

[@elijahwalker323]

I still feel like the only color pie break Seth cares about is black enchantment removal. Anyways enchantments are getting very strong and if only 2 colors can deal with it it's even better.

[@maxpotter9363]

Re: Hedge Shredder - two of the more recently popular commanders this card really shines in are Disa, the Restless, and The Wise Mothman. . Also, Crim buddy I believe in the Mind Skinner dream. Can't wait for the clash buddy! Yes Chef!

[@giovannishepard653]

"Black shouldn't be allowed to deal with enchantments. That's why they should run a colorless card to deal with enchantments." Mmm yes very logic, much sense.

[@Byteside546]

What about red

[@JulioDRai]

This is what bothers me the most about the argument, colorless is the biggest "color pie break" in all of magic imo and Seth somehow hasnt realized it yet or just doesnt care. Also lets not forget its 2024 and we have so many more enchantment cards than ever like sagas, classes, talents and soon rooms some of which you must kill or they will win the game almost on their own.

[@taylornewman9561]

@@JulioDRaicolorless pays a premium to have access to remove those permanents or needs colorless sources to do it. I get what your saying for sure, but being efficient at removing something is very different than doing it for a high cost.

[@ducciotarno3900]

@@taylornewman9561 black is still worse than white and green at removing enchantment

[@Dragiceoriginal]

@@taylornewman9561But it’s not efficient. Green and white can remove enchantments for one mana. Black can’t do it at instant speed for less than 3.

[@Xcapitano]

I can’t believe you guys don’t know yet why wotc gave black enchantement removal… its because it was the only permanent type with only two colors who could deal with it… they gave black tertiary enchantment removal. Maro explained it several times on his podcast. Red can deal with artifacts and black can deal with enchantments. Blue can bounce or counter everything. That’s it

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

Yup makes perfect sense. Plus I'd argue black has some of the worst removal in the game

[@Xcapitano]

@@JamesCooley-q8b yeah black was the logical choice flavor wise and balance wise

[@Byteside546]

​@@JamesCooley-q8bwhite has the best removal in general, Black has the next best creature removal, green has the next best non-creature removal, blue can deal with anything but can require more to fully remove, red is definitely the worst at removal (it only has direct damage to deal with creatures and has select few options to deal with non-creatures Black is the most played and is in 11 of the top 15 most played commander color combinations for a reason.

[@bonidc6732]

​@@JamesCooley-q8b black is literally the color or removal it has the best creature removal in the game it lacking removal for other permanents was what made it balanced

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

@@bonidc6732 ok I'll play what is blacks best removal spell? Is it as good as swords? Beast within? Cyclonic rift? Chaos warp? Pongify? Farewell?

[@BrunoCasagrandaNeves]

I've finally found the word that summarizes the whole Richard EDH philosophy: fear Fear of removal, fear of hate, fear of heat, fear of bad draws, fear of scary art Well, fear keeps you alive, indeed

[@vaporeon344]

I think you’ve done a really good job summarizing this. And, I think it’s also something that people give Richard a lot of hate for. He prepares for the apocalypses that his decks are built to take advantage of. It’s smart deck building, even if it comes off as lame to people who want to burn fast and bright.

[@aaronwindham6065]

I absolutly love that black get enchantment removal, to many times am I completely hosed with my graveyard decks, anything in grixis I always struggle with it. Just wish it more artifact removal😊

[@tyberiousmcelvogue8396]

Hedge shredder + the oculus whenever you manifest dread you might get both if it’s a creature goes on the battlefield if the second one is a land it goes on the battlefield also

[@andrewwebb3813]

Mirror Room // Fractured Realm is definitely going in my Kairi Clones deck! The Mirror Room side is a clone effect which the deck already wants, and the Fractured Room side doubles up on Kairi's death triggers which is absolutely massive, even for seven mana!

[@DrukenReaps]

I think enchantments are too powerful not to have a number of good options to be able to remove them. And if I can do it in colorless I should be able to do it within every color too.

[@Bro490]

Giggling skitterspike + The Mindskinner. Since it deals damage to each opponent, and whenever an opponent takes damage from you EACH opponent mills, this is basically each player mills power x number of opponents number of cards.

[@seandun7083]

I agree with Seth on Withering torment. Adding "or enchantment" to infernal grasp should take more than 1 mana.

[@dopethrone191]

The hate for black enchantment removal is dumb. Green can do everything cats out of the bag

[@Target008]

Blue can exile an artifact and enchantments with ravenform. Red already broke the pie with liquidmetal coating and insert destroy artifact spell of choice. White has tons of counterspells even before reprieve dawn charm, and rebuff the wicked. I want to point out that black isnt traditionally considered to kill artifacts but it can with Gate to Phyrexia or og karn turning them into creatures and then killing with the normal black kill spells. (*corrected as per comment)

[@nicolasperrin4518]

Ravenform doesn't hit enchantments, blue can only bounce them.

[@Running-Commentary]

Regarding Withering Torment and feed the swarm Removal: Creatures - W, B, R Artifacts - W, R, G PWs - B, R, G Enchantments - G, W, ?? Enchants needed another colour able to deal with them.

[@Rule0Podcast]

An opponent's Kona, Rescue Beastie dropping an Overwhelming Splendor onto the battlefield will finally trigger my bucket list dream of picking up someone's card and eating it in front of them.

[@LunaLasceria]

Rustspore Ram was the first card printed which is now (through errata) a Sheep. Nyx-Fleece Ram was the first card printed as a Sheep. Gatebreaker Ram is probably the most famous Sheep. Bridled Bighorn was the most recent Sheep, in OTJ.

[@Shimatzu95]

I syraigt up only knew nycfleeve since i happen to own one and find enchantment creatures neat.

[@the_knut]

I agree with Crim on Kona. You can treat the deck like a reanimator deck, just loading up on vehicles/tap effects and big cards.

[@totakekeslider3835]

I have a green stompy deck (Ojer Kaslem) with 48 creatures in it. I’ve played it against my friends dozens of times and they know to hold removal for the commander. It still goes off every game and can stomp the table. I have huge bombs to play in my hand every single game. Kona is a turn faster than Ojer Kaslem. Yeah, it’s good. “Dies to Doomblade” is such a tired argument, especially from Richard.

[@Spotifist]

I agree with Seth, it’s not the card itself but rather the direction of the design. Mana identity gives the game depth!

[@Wuronjilong]

I for one am excited to play Giggling Skitterspike in my Feather deck! A deck that already draws a ton of hate now has an indestructible 1/1 stonewall blocker that doubles as a wincon once i get the engine going

[@shayneweyker]

MV's Grimore will probably be used in some kind of tokens deck that can make food and take advantage of Krark Clan Ironworks and blue sacrifice artifact tutors. Brenard seems the most obvious, but if you build around the Grimore any deck that includes blue, makes a lot of food, and can easily sac the Grimore and the food for life has a chance to make it good.

[@KadeoOConnell-tk3qj]

It's crazy to me the guys who go on and on about Surveil Lands..... Don't understand why Hedge Shredder is broken.

[@Diegesis]

Kona would be cool to play as a vehicle commander. use the vehicles to tap him but also use him to cheat out more expensive vehicles. some of those warhammer vehicles were a million mana and colorless to boot. you're still getting good use out of his ability but you're also not doing anything that broken. even the good vehicles are mid.

[@LoonerFlight]

Also the flavor of Withering Torment is on point. It's Valgavoth draining the hope (glimmers are enchantments) from the survivors

[@MrMalorian]

Giggling Skitterspike is amazing even as a fair blocker. Tons of ways to abuse, but even at the ground it's perfect.

[@dogmaenslaved5434]

I’m definitely jamming giggling skitterspike into my Eivor battle ready equipment deck as the backup commander. I also already got grafted exoskeleton in the deck lol

[@DarthChocolate15]

"Colors must strictly adhere to color pie, and you cannot have an effect". That's still true (in intention, cards slip through). What you're actually saying is "cards must strictly adhere to a definition of color pie from year XXXX". The color pie evolves and changes. WotC has decided to spread enchantment removal into blacks color pie, so three colors have removal for the type (just like Artifacts). It definitionally *is* in black's color pie, it's just a new addition to its color pie.

[@kylegonewild]

For me it was the original Children of the Corn around 6-7. I lived out around a bunch of farmland and that movie messed me up for a little while lol. Weird nightmares about corn for a while. I can look back on it now for the *rough* film it actually was.

[@TopdeckTech]

Mirror Room/Fractured Realm would go absolutely nutty in my Eloise aristocrats. Double clues, double surveil, double pings from Blood Artist or Mirkwood Bats. It's so so good.

[@representativejoints1188]

Prowl, Stroic Strategist is a 2/3 on one side. The glimmer is perfect for mono white etb.

[@seagrave764]

Giggling Skitterspike + Colossal Hammer and some sort of Counter doubler is gonna be fun, also looking forward to give opponents the Grimoir and make them discard

[@DerpyLaron]

7:15 Another advantage the sheep has over welcoming vampir, is that if you already have an effect like it out, it will trigger it. Welcoming having 3 power often makes it often not synergies with the low power matters/token shells it is is in. It's nothing massively detrimental, but if we get another effect of this kind welcoming vampire might be on the chopping block.

[@samogburn2662]

Doesn't welcoming vampire have 2 power...?

[@elitheworrywort]

The overlords are really good at full cost in haste enabling decks. E.g the jund ones all kick ass in Henzie, the temur ones in maelstrom wanderer, etc

[@k9commander]

Green had lots of card draw long before 2019. Enchantresses, Greater Good, Shamanic Revelation, Soul of the Harvest, and many more. 2019 just gave it draw that was less specific. Beast Whisperer, Great Henge, and Guardian Project are not restricted by archetypes. They just require you to play creatures.

[@FlashTheSlothDMV]

Against the odds Queza, Augur of Agonies and Marina Vendrell's Grimoire that's what we need to see.

[@useridkilla3698]

Hedge Shredder is in my Disa the Restless Goyfgate deck, but that's self mill. I have Morality Shift in it to exchange my graveyard and my library. If Disa, Maskwood Nexus or Conspiracy naming Goyf and Hedge Shredder are on the field, it results in all the creatures in my library put on the field and all the lands put into play tapped. If I have Gaea's Blessing, Ulamog or Kozilek in the library, that will make the rest of the cards get shuffled back into my library. Three cards on the field, one still in library and cast a seven mana spell is a bit much, but that is the big flashy play you get once or twice. Disa is a Hedge Shredder go well together.

[@capazity247]

Hedge Shredder as well as Abhorrent Oculus are incredibly busted if you run Zimone, Mystery Unraveller as your commander. Especially if you manifested Abhorrent Oculus and flipped it as it avoids the disadvantage of the additional casting cost. Very unique application of both cards though.

[@dustins9464]

I completely agree with Seth in regards to black enchantment removal. That ability isnt needed in straight Black, unless it is in Orzhov. Don't take that color combo strength away. I don't care what Maro says. Sometimes Maro is somewhere else in his discussions and decisions. Let Magic evolve slightly from the game that Richard Garfield intended it to be played. Black has discard, and a lot of it. Use the discard to its advantage. Always, just my opinion. Cheers!

[@Midragor]

I play Stasis in one deck Seth and it usualy end the game. It goes : Board Tap, swing in with 21+ power commander (Rhoda), Stasis to prevent untapping and finish the rest of the table in max 2 turns.