Is This Stax Piece Ok? | Commander Clash Podcast 164

[@laytonjr6601]

If you have a game plan that results in winning the game, everything is ok. If you play stasis just to do nothing for 30 turns, we're gonna have a problem. Edit: you have a weird definition of stax piece. I agree with Richard, if it's a 1 time thing like Bojuka Bog it's a hate piece, not a stax piece. Similarly, board wipes are not stax pieces: a stax piece is a permanent. Sure, a stax deck will play hate pieces and board wipes, but those are not stax pieces… Edit2: (I'll repeat what I said below in the comment chain since it seems I am top comment) Stasis isn't the problem, there are many combos with stasis to make it 1 sided. The problem is when you play stasis with no plan

[@kyllanburt994]

I agree with the fact that they have a weird definition of a stax piece. I also agree most of these are hate pieces/bears. I think hushbringer is a hate bear. However, I think Elesh norn is a stax piece. And a board wipe is a board wipe. I don't see that as hate or stax.

[@laytonjr6601]

@@kyllanburt994 To me, the definition of hate bear is a stax piece that is also a creature (so easier to remove than artefact or enchantment)

[@profanemagic5671]

They said that? That's their definition of Stax? Good decision to not have watched it then, lmao.

[@KelzBelzGG]

​@@profanemagic5671 ​you are still giving them interaction on their video. Do you just not like MTG Goldfish? This comment is so weird.

[@Celsior_Lux]

Sustained Tax. STax... the thing has to stick around and tax players in some way. Strange how they never define clearly what STax is for them in a video questioning if a card is a stax piece.

[@rennysama9752]

I think the opinion that "card name" is stax because it prevents me from playing greedy is a little silly. There needs to be ways to punish greedy play, and yeah, it sucks to be the one punished, but it also sucks if everybody at the table watches 1 player greed infinitely and face no repercussions

[@rennysama9752]

I think cards can be stax and also be necessary for the health of the game

[@Someone-lg6di]

That's hate pieces response to stop. If they r playing greedily, punish for overextending

[@troybone6849]

​@@Someone-lg6dilol what defines greed in a game everyone is trying to win in lol. Ridiculous concept. Stax is for pale incels

[@ImThatSmooth]

@@Someone-lg6di that’s why Notion Thief and Elesh Norn and others are necessary evils

[@mellowyellow5427]

Boys is it greedy to play islands???

[@andrewbeck3363]

As a graveyard player, I'm totally for people playing Rest in Peace. Since I'm all in on this unfair game mechanic that will win me the game, I should also be prepared to defend the unfair game mechanic that will win me the game.

[@frankomancer]

Exactly! My own gy deck isnt remotely unfair, but i still feel guilty sometimes due to the total absence of gy hate

[@Lucarioguild7]

I'm fine with Rest In Peace, but I really don't get the "graveyard decks are unfair" argument. To me that sounds like a power balance mismatch rather than an archetype needing to be completely shut down.

[@brunobatista9671]

If u have green or white in your deck it's fine, but grix or mono black it's kinda hard to get rid of rest in peace.

[@DemonBlanka]

@@Lucarioguild7 I'm playing my 8 mana guy for 8 mana, you're playing it for 1. It's pretty simple, graveyard strategies are trying to cheat the regular costs of spells (at the cost of them being vulnerable in the gy ofc) and if you're going to subscribe to the idea that hitting the graveyards is mean then graveyard decks are absolutely playing a less fair game than other decks, it's the same as why land ramp is one of the best things to do in commander because land destruction is taboo.

[@Lucarioguild7]

@@DemonBlanka If a reanimator deck is against a ramp deck, the reanimator deck might get it out first assuming they get lucky with self mill or discard outlets and happen to have the one card that reanimates for one but once a ramp deck is at 8 they can continue to play 8 drops the rest of the game. I'd hardly call what the reanimator deck is doing broken but as I said I'm fine with Rest In Peace and definitely wouldn't call it "mean"

[@tanvirrahman7339]

"stax haters are the greediest players in magic" - this episode, prior episodes and my exp at my LGS and conventions continues to reinforce this belief.

[@dariocampanella7992]

None of this cards are really stax, stax takes your will to play and trash it into the bin.

[@fabiogliosci8305]

If you have more than 1 stax piece on your side of the board, I don’t care, you are just going to die first lol

[@bartoffer]

Turns out when the game devolves to ships sailing past each other playing out their auto-include deterministic combos, all forms of interaction and disruption are rebranded as "stax."

[@Greg501-]

"I can't believe these people are trying to stop me from winning"

[@ryangainey94]

On the other hand, in casual, who cares about stopping your opponent as long as you get to "do the thing"? The competitive mindset is very different

[@Greg501-]

@@ryangainey94 I care about stopping people in casual from having free rein. You gotta work for that payoff.

[@ajtf8691]

@@ryangainey94 what if you don't get to do the thing because you didn't stop your opponent

[@CELatFIRST]

Most of the Goldfish complaints seem to be "That makes the game slow down" , but they run 5 board wipes per deck.

[@seanedgar164]

Cognitive dissonance forreal

[@DarthSironos]

Making the game slow down with little happening (Stax) and making the game last longer with lots happening (wipes) are 2 very very different things.

[@mrbelbobaggins8959]

Crim’s Propoganda and Ghostly Prison argument was top tier.

[@DemonBlanka]

Hearing Seth's pure cope on how Prop and prison aren't stax pieces/are okay. Brother, they are LITERALLY in stax decks!

[@INTstincts]

@@DemonBlanka Personally, I don't really think that they count as real stax... lands and board wipes are also in stax decks, that doesn't necessarily make them stax pieces. I think they're pillow fort effects, they don't deny your opponent any resources, they just make hurting you more difficult. Like, Thalia is stax because it denies your opponents resources to do their own thing. Prop and Prison just tax your opponents for interacting with you specifically. Is Fog a stax piece? It stops your opponents from doing damage to you, and they can't even pay mana to get around it. Rule of Law is stax, because your opponents can't cast their spells, but is Leyline of Sanctity stax since it stops your opponents from casting any spell that targets you? Notion Thief is stax, it stops opponents from drawing, so is Smothering Tithe stax because opponents can't draw without either paying mana or giving you a treasure? You can definitely argue that pillow fort falls under the category of stax, but I think that they're in stax decks to stop people from killing you while you assemble the lock, but they're not part of the lock itself, so don't really count as stax any more than a big indestructible blocker with reach.

[@EthanTowsley]

Hearing Seth argue not to run removal in one podcast then complain in another that one reasonable hate piece stop his games is Shakespearean tragedy (from a control player).

[@babatazyah]

Yeah it was pretty wild. Especially when Crim was arguing for Propaganda and the guys responded with "just remove it" as if they themselves run spot removal.

[@josipkukavica6867]

This is such a beautiful comment, it needs to be the top spot. Their response to any card is that its bad because it dies to removal and them non of them play any removal (except crim) and i really hate to a gree with crim😂😂

[@seanedgar164]

From a non-control player, I think all but Tomer have severe cognitive dissonance with magic lmao. Everything dies to removal but I only run board wipes and fogs

[@Gingerbreadley]

I love how Jake hasn’t been on here in years and Tomer still has chaos PTSD

[@brningpyre]

I think a lot of players have had to sit through a game or two with a "chaos" player. It's just miserable.

[@Gingerbreadley]

@@brningpyre it’s so bad in paper. Mtgo it can be ok if it doesn’t crash but the fact it probably isn’t there to try to win the game is the worst.

[@josephwodarczyk977]

​@@brningpyre miserable to see them leave!

[@smilesthomas44]

This is the podcast for Crim. Every point someone makes about 'this card is stax' Crim, in his infinite wisdom, says, 'So that means this is also stax, right?' And when it's the crew saying 'this card is okay', he goes, 'Great, so that means this is okay!' Oh no, I'm agreeing with Crim, what have I become?

[@kylesecord9960]

the real question should be "Does this stop Phil from randomly winning the game" Lmaoooo

[@Squee311]

lol seth saying stax slows games down and go faster when my man legit was timing out in mtgo by durdling and not winning the game...

[@baconsir1159]

"Donate Rest in Peace to the graveyard player" is evil, lol

[@epothos1]

They just sit there with cardboard that they want to shred staring them in the face 😂

[@REWASDFGHJ]

Useful concept to think of these three spectrum. Stax vs Punisher: If it is a constant disallowing of a normal rule of the game, it is a stax piece. If it puts a consequence to a normal rule of the game or common action, then its punisher. Weak vs Strong: This is how impactful it is to an affected deck. Broad vs Narrow: How many decks are affected. Broad implies most to all decks are hit by it (Grand Arbiter Augustin is broad, Rest in Peace is narrow) I don't think it's stax unless it is Broad & Strong. Weak+Broad: Speedbump. Just a bit of scaler disruption to buy you time to get online. Strong+Narrow: Tech Card/Tech Hate. These are for when you are weak to a certain mechanic or metagame your playgroup. ==This Video's Cards== Roiling Vortex: Weak Narrow Punisher, Weak Narrow Stax (this is both stax and punisher. It's narrow to both. It requires an activation which makes it narrower and weaker because it isn't always up) Rest in Peace: Strong Narrow Stax. Most decks don't strongly use their graveyard. Hard for aristocrats/yard decks. Totally fair Collector Ouphe: Strong Narrow Stax. Almost broad due to mana rocks, but that isn't locking up that many game actions. It's the most fragile permanent type and a 2/2. Notion Thief: Scaling Broad Stax. Scales with power of the playgroup. Flash gives utility which makes it stronger. Hushbringer: Strong Mostly-Broad Stax. ETB+Dies is a pretty big range, some decks won't care. Fragile small creature Panharmommycon: Strong narrow stax. Large booty, shuts down ETBs. Choke: Scaling Narrow Stax. Does nothing vs most decks, largely invalidated by non-type specific landbases. Not great against multicolor decks as they can fetch non-islands. Scales with power level. Archon of Emeria: Strong broad stax. Entering tapped is pretty slowing. Rule of law is pretty slowing. If you play this after playing 2 other spells you can lock in a tempo advantage. 3 toughness is a bit less fragile than 1 or 2. Chaos: Farewell: Not stax. It isn't a lasting effect. Exiling stuff isn't stax, it's just disruption. Linvala: Very narrow stax. Maybe you could call this scaling, but most creatures don't have activated abilities. This is just manadork-player whining. Opposition Agent: Scaling Stax. Scales in power and coverage depending on power level of playgroup. If it's clipping fetchlands and common tutors and stranding them in hands its broad and strong. Many decks don't care for tutors and many players eschew them cause they're boring and repetitive. Flash increases its strength. Propaganda: Weak broad stax. This is a minor tax. ==Some Other Cards== Yasharn: Scaling Scaling Stax. Based on your playgroup. It hits treasures, moneyfetches, sac engines, life costs. Kaladesh Kambal: Weak broad punisher Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: Weak broad stax Mind's Dilation: Strong broad tempo punisher (this punishes by developing your opponents board) Nezahal: Strong weak value punisher (this punishes with opponent card advantage value) Kaervek the Merciless: Broad strong punisher Drannith Magistrate: Strong Broad-Narrow Stax. It shuts off commanders which is broad and narrow at the same time. There's a 4th axis about how easy it is to break the symmetry of it. Some are default one sided, but others are

[@REWASDFGHJ]

Follow up thought: I think they are really focused on keeping their games condensed and short so it's easier to edit and consume. I think slow the game down cards are actually good, because it catches some players and makes them more vulnerable so other players can dispatch them. I love a Thalia or Archon or Deafening Silence, especially when your deck breaks the parity. It isn't you are ramping, but you are anti-ramping/anti-tempoing the opponents. They really focus on how 'landramp is uncontested one of the best things you can do' but disregard the option to constrict opponents so ramp/card draw aren't unbeatable win-alls. Not advocating for MLD, but just a bit of speed bumps can create openings for wins. They also didn't really cover the aspect of making deals with other players to remove permanents that cause you issues. That changes the hyper-geometric calculator, especially when people are friendly and good sports. I've seen players take out a speedbump or stax piece that didn't affect them much because it helped another player, or bought them an ally to deal with a mutual threat. That's desirable political landscape for a game. The magic that Richard seems to often want is just hyper-optimized podracing and I've played in those metas, they suck and turn into cEDH fast mana misery.

[@markmittelbach7975]

None of these cards are stax. They aren't even close. Stax reduces the resources for ALL players and requires deck design and play to win despite it also hitting you. If it doesn't hit you it isn't stax. Stax isn't a "sustained tax" or any of that, it's from Smoke Stacks. Yes, language changes, but there are already existing words that are still in use for what these other cards are doing. They are at most Tax cards, but most aren't even that. They are prison, hate or control cards. Calling them Stax just loses information.

[@FearOgre]

Choke does not scale with power level.

[@FearOgre]

@@markmittelbach7975 Stax does not come from Smoke Stacks.

[@TehHellequin]

There's two things that I think are key to these kinds of discussions: 1 - There seems to be a general feeling that, even though this is MTG, it's unacceptable to ever 'get got' by a card. ex: Rest In Peace wrecks graves for sure, but seeing it ~1/6 games is not really a problem, especially when it usually isn't coming down on 2. 2 - Building a deck with cards specifically to counter a deck you're opposing is inherently competitive, and is not the same as having a couple of 'incidental hate pieces' like Graveyard Tresspasser or Farewell. (which most would consider 'responsible deckbuilding' instead of 'building to counter')

[@maximillianhallett3055]

1-Those kinds of players are insufferable. 2-Naturally upgrading your deck to be able to keep up against your meta isn’t sweaty.

[@EmbeJuicemazzopazzo]

​@@maximillianhallett3055word

[@seanedgar164]

A player not being able to meaningfully contribute to every 6th game is a bad thing. Shutting people out of contributing to the game is not a positive thing to do, and should be disclosed

[@INTstincts]

for point 1, I think the people that complain about "getting got" definitely exist (and are insufferable), but in general I think people mostly are against the cards that "get you and don't let you stop getting got". Like, if you complain about getting counterspelled or bojuka bogged, that's weak sauce, you were interacted with, it's part of the game. But if you're in a mono-black graveyard deck and somebody plays Rest in Peace, congratulations, your deck now functionally doesn't work until you either draw your feed the swarm or somebody else happens to wipe all enchantments. You basically might as well concede. At a competitive level, sure, all is fair when you're trying to win. You can't complain about cards like this in cEDH, for example. But if we sit down to a friendly, casual game of commander, and you hit me with an Iona when I'm mono-color, I'm scooping and there won't be a game 2.

[@donb7519]

​@@maximillianhallett3055there's keeping up and there's making sure someone in your pod specifically doesn't get to play for a chunk of the game.

[@chenjamin1]

1. Stax is specifically something that stops a core part of the game to stop functioning, e.g. skips untap, only untap one land, skip other players draw steps, all opponents max hand size is zero etc. 1. If you are playing a strategy that abuses a specific mechanic e.g. graveyard , then its your job to protect your strategy. 2. Answers to specific game plans is not stax. As long as they can still play basic magic.

[@markmittelbach7975]

They seem using stax as "anything that makes it take longer for your opponent to win the game", which I guess is a concern if you play magic as your job and as your primary hobby, but just adds more confusion to a term that is already used in increasingly unclear ways. I know most people playing magic today have never faced off against "the stacks" as that deck is over a decade, so what stax does hasn't been burned into their memory. Language evolves but everything that is being called 'stax' has a better term that is currently used in magic, are much clearer in what they mean.

[@FrankPalombo]

Stax is strictly forced sacrifices

[@Vahnatai]

@@FrankPalombo Nah plenty of central Stax pieces are stuff like keeping things tapped down (Stasis/Tanglewire) or taxing (Sphere of Resistance, Ghostly Prison/Propaganda). Yes the original Smokestack worked like that, but it's a small part of the archetype. Side note that almost none of the cards talked about today were actual Stax pieces, they were almost all Prison and Hate cards.

[@FrankPalombo]

@@Vahnatai forced sacrifice is the only element to stax. If someone wants to bundle forced sacrifice with another element like tapping, call it something else.

[@seanedgar164]

​@FrankPalombo that's an incredibly archaic perspective. No stax plays smokestack anymore, it's an archetype. Same way delver can be run without Delver lol

[@gabe3704]

As a graveyard player I dont care if you play rip, but if I am mono black I am going to resort to player removal rather quickly unless I get to top deck one of 2 answers. Its fine to play into, just makes you have to play more careful and fairly cast your spells. As a whole stax is fine, what makes it miserable is when people play it without a plan/after someone else has popped off and before they can get answered simply because its in their hand at that moment

[@jamespatterson5644]

Player removal is permanent removal. if i can't kill the RiP, I will kill the player.

[@petrri323]

Commander players should go play Yu-Gi-Oh! Stax pieces often lead the game towards “fair magic.” You play a land, you cast a spell or two, then you pass the turn. In my opinion, most of the time people dislike stax pieces because they prevent players from doing many things in one turn. Which was the whole point of having a mana base in the first place, to limit how much any one player could do on any one turn. The whole culture surrounding commander as a format, Is one promotes excessive greed in every play. So playing stax, is “counter“ to the mainstream commander culture because it limits this greed. If we keep going like this Magic really will turn into Yu-Gi-Oh! Stax is not a bad thing, and you should never let people make you feel bad for playing Stax .

[@JoeyWheeler-m3s]

Exactly this. Play one game against stun and you’ll be crying for all flood gates to be banned. (Wayyyy better name than Stax imo) but I guess not all Stax are flood gates. Either way

[@chibichanga1849]

I think this came out most prominently in the Archon of Emeria discussion; while it felt like the game ground to a halt compared to a normal commander game, the fact is they were still able to play one spell per turn, they could play instants on other players' turns, and Crim had a plan for how to break the symmetry, flickering the Archon so he could advance his game plan. And they still had a problem with it. I don't think I would go as far as you in saying you should never let people make you feel bad for playing Stax. There are definitely cards that it would be fair to be salty about. But the whining about cards that slow you down to a leisurely Magic the Gathering pace is cringe.

[@donb7519]

Yugioh also has it's own stax cards. Like the infamous mystic mine.

[@christopherrue1773]

But then you'd be playing Yu-Gi-Oh...which sounds terrible

[@ImThatSmooth]

@@chibichanga1849 you should never be salty about any card being played unless it’s banned. Dont be salty cuz you wanna draw 45 cards in a turn and someone Notion thief’s you, people like you …. Only fun when you’re winning right? You can play Armageddon against me for all I care. It’s part of the game

[@JeffKGabriel]

all ive been hearing about is how you dont need to run interaction in commander- just let someone else do it and now i hear these same people cant handle a 2/3 archon of emeria i think thats on yall- i can understand a rule of law is harder to remove, but a 2/3 flyer? crim should keep forcing interaction back into this silly meta with even more archons lol

[@Ravarix]

Crim so right, Propaganda/pillowfort is stax. Some levels of stax are fine (proportional to power level of table). Attacking is a more basic game action you are being denied than Notion Theif fetches. Y'all also agreed Enchantments/Artifacts are also naturally more staxy because of certain colors inability to deal with them easily

[@thetrinketmage]

How does RIP totally shut off graveyard decks. Like sure you can't use your muldrotha but you can still hard cast your creatures. You can play your sac outlets and value pieces, you don't use them but you can still set up for when you find removal

[@dariocampanella7992]

Exactly so, if your average cmc is 7 because you are greedy then is your problem

[@jasonmolisani1864]

As someone with 2 aristocrat decks, let me assure you RIP shuts off my game plan. While RIP is out, things don't die. You don't get Blood Artist triggers. You don't get "when this dies" effects. All you have is a bunch of bad creatures that cost far too much for the power/toughness they provide.

[@raccoonhatcity7627]

Stax is the hero we need.

[@NFEast]

Surprised they never talked about Drannith Magistrate

[@dariocampanella7992]

Not stax. Ok to be fair if someone plays magistrate 70% percent of my decks will be fine because I have a gameplan that does not rely on my commander alone

[@velphidrow]

​@dariocampanella7992 Dan absolutly is stax, but it's not really a problem

[@BrunoCasagrandaNeves]

​@@velphidrowagreed

[@jackalvonstone250]

​@@dariocampanella7992 Not if they also have Knowledge Pool

[@VRanger100]

It's such a funny out of context clip at 34:51 Tomer: "I'd rather be Choked than Boiled"

[@discoviolenza1984]

Cards that target excessive card draw are good for Edh, except Wotc needs to figure out how to template them so they don't work with wheels.

[@lVideoWatcherl]

I do not think that is possible. Edit: it might actually be, but it wouldn't exclude all wheels. Template it something like "If an effect an opponent controls would make an opponent draw cards, ...". But that still doesn't exclude wheels, it only excludes the player playing the stax piece from abusing it through wheeling.

[@rennysama9752]

"When an opponent draws cards that are not the result of an effect of one of your cards..."

[@Byteside546]

"whenever an opponent draws a card from a spell or ability they control" excludes both wheels and the first draw of the turn.

[@Byteside546]

Fairer notion theif Flash Whenever an opponent would draw one or more cards from a spell or ability they control, they instead draw a card. Or "Each opponent can only draw one card per turn"

[@Someone-lg6di]

The other issue is the cards that hate on draw are never symmetrical and downright benefit the player who hates on draw

[@fenderslasher]

I'm fine with like 98% of all stax. The stasis or occasional winter moon deck designed to make the game agonizing for people is a pain in the butt. I get so much time off every week, I don't want to sit at a casual table and watch you dab for 90 minutes. It's a problem in the same way effective healing in D&D is a problem. The game really wants you to power through to a victory and going in the opposite direction from that or prolonging the encounter can undermine the fun of the game or consume vast quantities of time. Conclusion: what's OK and what's fun are two different things.

[@imaginarymatter]

A graveyard deck isn't truly a graveyard deck unless it has a way to play around Rest in Peace.

[@EmbeJuicemazzopazzo]

preach

[@seanedgar164]

Can't really stop it from deleting their yard, can't play until it's gone. I run spot removal to hit what actually matters. Sometimes shuffle in to be stronger

[@iBlurrrrrHD]

"Is playing a blocker stax?" 😂

[@FrankPalombo]

Only if it forces someone to sacrifice.

[@mashedmentality]

If one card completely shuts down your deck, then it’s one of two things in my mind. 1. The deck needs work, one card shouldn’t be able to shut your whole deck down for an entire game. Interaction and removal exist for a reason. 2. If there is one card that can shut down multiple types of decks for an entire game by just being played, then that card is inherently broken and should be banned.

[@hobez64]

If I'm playing a deck with a restriction or theme, sometimes I'll just get got by something, and that's fine, I can be at peace with that

[@al8188]

Stax pieces tend to either be silver bullets or contribute to hard locks. Outside of high-power casual pods where we all know whats up, I haven't seen a Winter Orb or an Omen Machine lock. For that reason I think stax's presence and the power level of stax is super misunderstood. If you're in a pod where Oppo agent isn't just a 3/2, you're probably at an appropriate power level for oppo agent. No one playing seriously is gonna Oppo a terramorphic expanse. Even stuff like Collector Ouphe, which is insanely strong, can be totally dead in the water outside of high power where people aren't deploying early Crypts and the like. All that to say, yeah, if you got reamed out by Blind Obedience, that is 100% on you baby. You were doing something particularly weak to this enchantment and didn't consider how to play through it.

[@seanedgar164]

Not everyone plays generic goodstuff deck. If my card advantage and spells are all synergistic with my sacrifice theme, I'm gonna be sufficiently locked out if Yasharn is in play.

[@WomenRespecter9000]

I run a colorless Kozilek The Great Distortion commander deck. The ENTIRE deck folds to a single Void Mirror. I've never run into one in the wild, but I fear the day.

[@KingRarecrazy]

Only one piece of black enchantment removal? That dates this episode!

[@xdelbarrio]

there is one in wilds of eldraine, although pretty unplayable at 5 mana sorcery speed, but we now have 3 technically

[@KingRarecrazy]

@@xdelbarrio playable is key. I don’t even think MTGoldfish noticed when it released

[@dariocampanella7992]

The 5 mana lession exists, is horrible but get the job done.

[@jamescooley5241]

I don't know if you meant the brand new spell in Duskmourn but that thing is disgustingly strong for black

[@maybeisuckatlife]

My take is that you don't need to know about one off stax pieces in my deck, the only time I'm talking about that is if my whole deck is stax pieces.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Should I be asking permission to play my taxation deck? It runs a lot of stax pieces, primarily in the form of taxation effects that give me incremental advantage rather than saying "no" to your plays. Though I do also have several pieces that just say no.

[@maybeisuckatlife]

@dontmisunderstand6041 I would let the table know what they are in for if it was me. Although depending on the commander they may already know.

[@ConManAU]

I have a simple heuristic: If it stops me from winning, it’s dirty stax. If it stops *you* from winning, it’s necessary interaction.

[@velphidrow]

The yugioh player philosophy

[@shilljonnyshill]

Crim absolutely bodied the cast with his arguments. Pillow fort is still stax.

[@mellowyellow5427]

Dude said humility was the same as propaganda. Actual garbage fire of a take.

[@Snowfox11]

When someone uses Naturalize to destroy my enchantment, I'm going to call them out for 'staxing' my enchantment. Didn't let me do what I wanted to do with it 😂

[@dementievatz]

For mono white in specific, I consider cards like Archon of Emeria and Spirit of the Labyrinth to be important tools to keep up with the advantages that other color combinations have access to. If you build to curve out with individually powerful cards, you can get an edge against people who are playing cantrips and ramp spells in addition to their individually powerful cards.

[@stormycat0905]

Yes it's ok. If it's on the battlefield, the stack, or a turn phase, expect someone to interact with it.

[@mightymjc10]

They mentioned that Rest in Piece was a narrow card, but I dont think they're thinking about how many abilities it shuts off. I run it in a Karametra deck because I don't have much grave interaction, but have to deal with Shirei, Muldrotha, Meren, and Necrobloom, so it deals with their strategy, but It also stops some secondary value abilities like dredge, emerge, flashback, persist, etc.

[@jordanlarson8310]

Crim is the most intellectually consistent on this topic. Either everything is cool or everything is stax. Personally I've been in some pretty degenerate games, MLD, hard old school stax, chaos (lol Tomer it's not stax). It's all cool as long as you are going to execute it in a way that leads to victory soon, and you don't whine when you get hit with it back.

[@TheTexasDice]

The big shift for rest in peace was the printing of "Feed the Swarm" 10 years ago, resolving RIP against a mono-black deck was basically game over. Kharn and Ugin were unaffordable cards for commander players and they had 0 answers for it.

[@ms.sysbit5511]

Nev’s Disc, Oblivion Stone, Unstable Obelisk, the Eldrazi titans, etc were answers to it. The issue was their efficiency and folks refusing to run some catchall answer. As a mono black edh player for over a decade I can state answers did and do exist. And Feed is pretty crap itself on every axis* except CMC. The new Withering Torment is magnitudes better so I’ll likely cut Feed outright and keep a few catchalls. Sorcery single target removal is pretty terrible.

[@thatepicwizardguy]

@@ms.sysbit5511 sure but if you want a good way to answer enchantments like RIP AND others... you're running how many of those cards exactly??? Oblivion stone is a terrible card. INSANELY slow and doesn't answer these things right away at all. Unstable Obelisk is a TEN MANA INVESTMENT to kill a single enchantment? get out of here dude lol you're really gonna HARD CAST eldrazi titans against RIP??? really?... they're in monoblack decks to cheat out from THE GRAVEYARD... so unless they're already in there how exactly are you dealing with that? feed has been THE ONLY reasonable answer besides nev's disk and boom pile but the latter two are definitely harder pills to swallow... you're also against a color that has teferi's protection AND a ton of ways to recur enchantments. agreed that withering torment is quite good, but saying there are all these other answers is crazy disingenuous when so many of these cards are stone cold unplayable in almost any deck lol

[@RyzinUpLoL]

Good luck having feed the swarm in your hand consistently in a 100 card singleton format though. That there is a possible answer doesnt mean that it is viable.

[@mrbelbobaggins8959]

@@RyzinUpLoLdude listed several other options also.

[@jasonmolisani1864]

The other part to consider is that black is the color that is best with tutors. Once you have that one catch-all in the deck, tutors give you multiple ways to find it.

[@barnburner1238]

Rule zero has just made bad deck building. People would rather not run interaction and pop off and moan when a “stacks” piece comes on the field

[@velphidrow]

100%

[@Cloudy573]

Effects that punish excessive card draw and ramping need to be more normalized. They're two of the most powerful things you can do and there needs to be powerful counterplay to match it.

[@willmcgraw5237]

The only issue here is that people don’t spend slots on enchantment removal because they geek out on their synergy pieces. If you play around counters and play enchantment removal (admittedly there are not super versatile enchantment removal cards in all colors)

[@hobbes9631]

List of things I learned from this video:

[@nathanshattuck4399]

I think the definition of stax should be cards that stop you from playing the game or cutting you off from resources until it’s removed. One time effects are not stax pieces. That being said, someone played a notion thief against my Faldorn deck and it was a blast!

[@Rob-ch1fy]

I've never understood why stax is evil and bad, but not playing board wipes is irresponsible.

[@imaginarymatter]

To be fair there's a decent amount of people who believe board wipes are evil and bad.

[@frankomancer]

because playing stax and playing board wipes or spot interaction are VERY different things

[@Rob-ch1fy]

@@frankomancer that really clears it up thanks Lmao

[@Alessandro-mg9oh]

someone plays stax = nobody plays no board wipes = game ends turn 5

[@joelhatterini6392]

Because most commander players have very little interaction. They overload on value cards and leave very little room for spot removal. If you need more than one board wipe to win a game, you're not winning the game.

[@jonathanrichman2330]

I sat down at my assigned pod at a FNM to see Jodah The Unifier, Omnath Locus of All, and The First Sliver. So I pulled out my Ishai+Kediss Rule of Law deck that just plays a bunch of effects that stop cascade+extra turn effects. Everyone else groaned and complained about the Rule of Law effects when they were already threatening to win by turn 4. The game was actually ok when everyone was just playing one spell a turn good stuff, until the First Sliver deck bounced all my stax pieces before it was Jodah’s turn who then immediately won.

[@moshjoshpitchief4418]

Tomer is spot on about Orcish Bow Master 25:00

[@jasonmolisani1864]

My thoughts on my opponent's playing the cards brought up: Roiling Vortex - Don't care Rest in Peace - I don't need a warning if you choose to run RIP, but, other than maybe Enchantress, you are now running a card with probably no synergies that only exists to mess with a type of opponent that you don't even know you will face. That is not the kind of deck building I like to see. I am not saying you shouldn't run graveyard hate, but I would much rather see someone playing a hate piece that also has synergies with the rest of the deck. Collector Ouphe - Don't care Notion Thief - Don't care Hushbringer - Don't care Elesh Noon, Mother of Machines - Don't care Choke - I don't need a warning if you run this, but I will judge you for running such a narrow hate piece. Archon of Emeria - Don't care Chaos cards - (not stax) I would want a pregame warning that they might happen Farewell - (not stax) Don't care Linvala, Keeper of Silence - Don't care Opposition Agent - Don't care Propaganda/Ghostly Prison - Don't Care

[@daithomas1430]

The issue is the definitions of Stax get mixed up, as someone who has played stax/prison in multiple formats this is the general rule of thimb: Stax - stops players playing some aspect of the game Tax - causes them to pay more for some aspect of the game (could be mana, life, card advantage, etc) Pillow fort - deters players from interacting with you. This can include tax and/or tax pieces

[@markmittelbach7975]

core aspect of the game, if it's a specific strategy that's a hate card. And the graveyard and tutoring are not core aspects of the game. The idea that stax makes people play 'fair magic' is insane, because stax is about making it impossible to play fair magic. Sure slang can have 'bad' mean 'good' for a while, but that's language being insane.

[@zephyrfyr]

Magic players want to play 4 player solitaire where the person who solitaires the best wins. Anything that stops them from building up their engine(s) is Stax/antifun. The reason why prop/prison isn't Stax is because you they don't interfere with me trying to play solitaire. Imagine a game of commander as a slot machine where hitting a jackpot is your deck doing its 'thing' and pulling the lever(idk is this how slot machines work) is setting up your board state, anything that prevents me from doing the latter is essentially depriving me of the dopamine hit of gambling and therefore is actively ruining my high Weirdly enough I do think that farewell does fit into the category of a antifun card but seems to be much more acceptable. My hypothesis is that it has something to do with how recently it was printed and how prevalent it was in standard sorta made people get used to it just like how people accept sol ring more than mana crypt but idk

[@dallis1155]

Richard giggling while Tomer goes on a rant about Scrambleverse brings pure joy to my soul 😂

[@crisgon9552]

If playing with random people I would only disclose if you are playing cEDH and full on stax/land destruction. Single staxs is annoying but fine. I play Tasigur the Golden Fang and i don't mind stax pieces. They don't need to be disclose. Every deck should have a backup plan and some sort of interaction

[@arthurvaughan3082]

I enjoyed the debate. I wish they had initially reached a consensus on operationalizing the term "stax" though. I think it would have added some clarity.

[@FrankPalombo]

Stax is strictly forced sacrifice

[@xTheIceKinGx]

I really look forward to your podcasts every week guys. You generate great discussion points and are very entertaining. Y'all are smashing this! :)

[@TehBoogyMan]

Rule Zero conversations in 2 years “guys my deck has magic cards in it”

[@Dragonspeaker]

So, from what I'm understanding, the general conciseness is that if the card stops my deck from doing it's thing then it's stax... I'm kinda with Crim, your deck should have a way to deal with something that can shut down your deck (yes, I know that's easier said than done). If you don't draw it, Oh well lets run it back

[@rarebabysteak3419]

Think of it this way, if the game goes longer you get to spend more time with your friends at the table so stax is really just friendship extending fun!

[@artman79]

I play blind obedience in my Delney deck cause it’s a life gain theme and I use the extort a lot. But it is technically a stax piece because it makes creatures and artifacts enter tapped, but I have never revealed I play in at beginning of a game. Idk maybe I’m wrong for that, but I have not really had to many ppl complain unless it’s like a haste aggro deck or artifact deck.

[@irou95]

My friend once said "I would rather pay 500 for a good manabase than 100 for a shit one" It's actually a good tip because eventually you will upgrade your decks to the 500 part and the 100 manabase just hangs around in your binder.

[@OceanicBacon]

the issue with warning people about Blood Moon is that then they fetch up basics and Blood Moon doesn’t work anymore

[@tanvirrahman7339]

or get targeted out of the gate b/c they are afraid a Blood Moon will wreck them while ignoring the obvious threat. Unpredictably, the clear threat who was left alone goes on to win. No one saw that coming.

[@rennysama9752]

Lie about having blood moon every game to trick your opponents into being less efficient

[@cablefeed3738]

At least they're playing with you.If someone told me they're playing blood moon, I just wouldn't play with them

[@rennysama9752]

@@cablefeed3738 do you feel that you wasted your time if you don't win the game?

[@cablefeed3738]

@@rennysama9752 I don't care about winning. I care about being able to play my spells even if I lose, in fact, i'm going to lose seventy five percent of the time, so of course, I don't care if I don't win.

[@neverstoplaughingcomedy386]

In my pod, one of the players plays mass land destruction. So far, nobody has had a problem with that deck. Then, I recently tried to put a possibility storm in one of my decks, and I was immediately declared the enemy of all mankind. I am forced to conclude Tomer is right, and chaos is stax.

[@wdeborde]

Alot of things people consider stax really aren't. If you know there are like a handful of cards in the game that completely end your strategy and you actively choose to not include the ability to deal with it, they aren't playing stax, you aren't playing well.

[@noahfriedrich4686]

Startled to see how many cards in their list aren't stax 😅

[@chibichanga1849]

It can be both. The fact that enchantment removal exists does not mean that Stasis is not stax.

[@ruecianbeoulve7770]

What if the rules and bannings page specifically says Iona is banned and people shouldn't play cards like that because it stops other players from being able to participate in the game, so I have to reluctantly take a 9 mana creature out of my angel deck that didn't cheat it into play but my opponent shows up with a blood moon against my 4 color Atraxa angel deck and i can't use my mana thus I can't remove the blood moon, is that me not playing well, or my opponent failing to be a good player in bringing a card that is definitely stax?

[@FrankPalombo]

Forced sacrifice is the only stax play.

[@talonjansen8926]

This is where it is helpful to bring up the difference between "hard" and "soft" locks, which once was very important in old Yugioh due to the competitive love for lock decks there. Propaganda and Ghostly Prison are soft lock pieces, where you still have the option or choice to do something. Hard locking usually requires assembling a combo or board state that prevents certain playstyles or mechanics or whatnot without there being much of a chance to react to it. In MtG I believe hard locks are called Prison decks.

[@hundredpercentjuice]

No need for an hour plus video, just remember the simple rubric - "MY stax pieces punish unfun strategies and lead to a better play experience both within individual games and for the community. YOUR stax pieces are cruel, break the social contract and imply that you are an anti-social narcissist."

[@ApxDoffy]

Richard's background looks like hes filming in the bathroom, and i love it😂

[@Llithiss]

Im just going to go with crim. Notion thief is good and helps shorten what would be longer turns. I love notion thief.

[@NerdHerder545]

To Crim‘s point about goad being a form of stax. If you can play disrupt decorum or some other mass goad effect it is often advantageous to skip your turn (through effects like Magosi the Waterveil or maybe even Meditate) because opponents often can‘t meaningfully interact with you and are forced to smack eachother for two turn cycles.

[@PitBossReplicant]

Seth, is the stax player in the room right now? 😂😂😂😂

[@deejayf69]

Crim really got you with the Propaganda. I agree with him. You can play it for sure, but it effectively removes the combat option for beatdown decks, and if that player was the threat, you don't have the option to knock them out anymore without paying a lot of mana. They're also a good example of cards that suck the higher up you go in power, as you win through alternate win-condition, which don't include combat, but brutally efficient in low casual.

[@jacksonleinweber3194]

My favorite time a notion thief was out was when my opponent had it on the battle field and then demonic consultation to thoracle. so in response when his library was empty I cracked a clue. Notion thief doesn't say may. 😂😂I didn't end up winning but I was so happy!

[@andrewwebb3813]

9:00 I completely agree with Tomer that RIP's symmetry makes it extremely fair and difficult to find a home for, but only at the deckbuilding phase. Once RIP hits the field, the only ones that don't want it around are the graveyard decks, and if they don't have an answer then they can't play the game, like at all. That leaves an incentive to the other players to leave it alone even if it shuts off their incidental Sevinne's Reclamation or something else.

[@DoggoCantSitStill]

This episode is just my magic shopping list of edh staples.

[@barrinburg612]

A little bit of stax is healthy, at least for my meta, it keeps a check on faster decks and kinda keeps everyone on a similar field. I have a deck thats strong but doesnt really get going till turn 5-6 i use stax to keep the field more even. Not everyones meta will reflect this so i think give it a try and see how it works for your playgroup.

[@TheWickedWeenie]

EDH players are fine with stax pieces up until you actually play them

[@AnotherGeekOnTheWall]

Tomer adding Thieves Auction is nuts to me. I'm completely with Crim on that one. You get to pause and "briefly" play an even more fun type of magic!

[@exriel]

The first Hushbringer/Ouphe/Narset in your deck is fine. Hushbringer with Ouphe, and Teeg, and Shalai and etc, etc. is the problem (in a casual pod). It doesn't require that many layers to be obnoxious.

[@christop3147]

On the topic of Rest in Peace, it might seem like it has no synergy but my War Doctor deck begs to differ. It wants anything to go into exile, that includes the graveyard player. It helps the gameplan to get as many time counters on the War Doctor as possible.

[@jamesc.7216]

Apparently everything is stax now.

[@the_names_rob]

Im a fan a light stax to repleace your removal cards. In my mono red goblin deck Im playing 3 non-basic hate pieces: Blood Moon, Ruination, and Winter Moon. In my Kaalia deck I run Phyrexian Censor, worse Archon of Emeria, because Kaalia lets me effectively double spell by cheating out a big creature then I can still cast a spell. You need to play these stax pieces to tempo your opponents while progressing yourself the same way you play removal. Not all out but not shying away

[@malikileefred6011]

I am THE John graveyard player. I love graveyard decks, I play them constantly. RIP is not an insurmountable problem. Does it suck that I can’t reanimate my eldrazi? Yes! Absolutely. However, in every color of graveyard deck I have played (those being Jund, Grixis, Golgari, Orzohv and Mono Black) you always have one option… just play the damn reanimation targets. Your deck should still have ramp and card draw. Does it suck to draw your Buried Alive? Yes. But you can still draw into and play your Void Winowers, Razakeths, Vilis or whatever your running with your normal mana. It is not hard, I’ve done it multiple times in Mono Black. If you get to turn eight with only five mana and are unable to play any of your big creatures, that’s a deck problem not a RIP problem.

[@lzan4gi]

Loved the video guys agree with most of it. TLDR: Fog is stax, Humility is fine

[@Tyabann]

Crim is the only person on this channel who actually knows how to play Magic

[@PalPlays]

I don't like Rule of Law effects, but I *do* like Curse of Exhaustion. That card neuters an archenemy so hard. I love it.

[@quintessentiald]

Rest in peace - pairs well with War Doctor, Kaya, and Ashiok. There are good deck building reasons to want stuff in exile as opposed to graveyard.

[@jarvvoitlus9458]

I think "speedbumps" that make your opponent have removal to be able to effectively execute their gameplan have become a more important part of my deck. In my Rocco Saltskitter deck, for instance, I typically only cast one big spell a round and then leave my other mana for instants. So for me, Rule of Law effects are one-sided, and they slow down my opponents development without shutting them out of the game.

[@RyanEglitis]

Stax is only stax if it sits in play and prevents you from removing it through it's own existence. Or if you use two or more pieces to achieve the same effect.

[@FrankPalombo]

Actual stax is simply forced sacrifice

[@andrewwebb3813]

44:00 At first I thought this take was insane, but then I remembered that I run Possibility Storm in my cast-from-exile deck to prevent players from casting spells from their hands and giving me the advantage as most of my spells can be consistently cast from exile. I guess chaos can be stax if weaponized properly. Not sure what to do with this newfound knowledge...

[@ericvernon1182]

Hey...I just wanted to say thank you for this great deck list... Can't wait to play all these cards with my friends!!!

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

Chaos is not stax. It might be annoying, but it's not stax

[@dariocampanella7992]

If you layer chaos over chaos than the game may become unplayable.

[@fakename3168]

If individual Stax pieces are a problem then you aren’t running enough removal the discussion on if it’s Stax or not sounds sorta like complaining about demolition field because it destroys lands like Armageddon

[@ethanglaeser9239]

I would never bother to clear Notion Thief. It is not stax, even if it is rude. It doesn't prevent fair play, it only prevents unfair play.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Notion Thief is doesn't prevent unfair play, it switches who benefits. You don't stop a single card draw with it, it just means the notion thief player draws the cards instead. It's definitely stax, but it's also asymmetrical stax that benefits the caster in addition to stopping the opponent. It's by far the most unhealthy and toxic card they talked about this episode.

[@ethanglaeser9239]

@@dontmisunderstand6041 I get where you are coming from, but I also disagree. Firstly, Notion Thief is a 3/1 creature, so it does not often stay on the board for long. The Flash ensures that it does draw at least 1 card, but it does not have any other protection. Secondly, while it doesn't "prevent a draw" like you said, the value of the draw does change. If we imagine a scenario where everyone is playing equivalent decks, a Notion Thief will give me approximately as much value as it takes from you. However, if there are power imbalances or playstyle differences, Notion Thief will not always be equivalent. If my cards are higher mana value, I can use fewer of them. If I have a combo deck, it may draw me into a fast win. The exact power of the draws is dependent on the context. Lastly, I disagree with the definition of "Stax" here. I do not define Stax as being "prevention effects". I define Stax effects as being those that punish fair gameplay as well as unfair gameplay. Notion Thief does relatively little against a "fair" deck. When in a meta full of combat wins and creature-based board presence, Notion Thief is just not as good. Notion Thief hates on the things that Commander players gorge themselves on, and punishes greedy and unfair play patterns. I would argue that the card is actually healthy in the metas that it is good in. Every strategy needs a counter, and every point of greed needs a possibility of being punished.

[@Finicky9]

Seth's guitar placement is giving me anxiety

[@0rbit4lFr4m3]

Archon works really well with Winota decks cause it does help advance the plan pretty well.

[@Belena711]

This video can be summed up as watching four guys struggle to define stax for an hour. Lol

[@FrankPalombo]

Forced sacrifice is the only stax play.

[@niceladlucas2440]

Tomers mic minorly messing up while he was very passionately monologuing made the experience of this episode that much better

[@MagusShade101]

15:50 the thing it does to further your game plan is help you not die to the things your opponent is trying to play from their graveyard

[@mennopijnenburg7158]

Hey guys, thanks for your efforts. I always look forward to these. Thanks particularly for the last 20 minutes of this podcast. Too often these episodes boil down to 'list of cards I like' or 'list of card I don't like'. Here you dove deeper. You started to explore a narrow concept of this game we love. It was interesting. Honestly, by now I think we know your opinions on Notion Thief, Farewell and Scrambleverse :) Spend an hour questioning why EDH has struck solid gold where Tiny Leaders and Oathbreaker rang hollow. Do you know? Which opinions are out there? Would EDH have floated to the top if Oathbreaker or Tiny leaders had been the OG? Spend an hour predicting, reasoning which aspects might mark a new breakaway format. Will it ever happen again? Or indeed, spend an hour to nail down what effect or dynamic typifies a card that needs to be declared before the game. Between you I think you will find remarkable insights and substantial common ground. These will be hours not wasted. Cheers

[@psychozen7169]

Crim like this list just solidifies my must have playlist

[@ElEndos2]

As a player who loves chaos (and mill, may as well trigger as many people as possible) I play scrambleverse, not thieves auction. That choice is because of time. It has never taken me 2 minutes to complete scrambleverse, but im not waiting ten minutes on you trying to decide which permanent you like best. As with any other deck, goldfish it and practice take faster actions. I think I resolve my scrambleverse faster than the average turn in my pod, and usually I don't do much else that turn. Also, best loss ever was losing my vialsmasher during scrambleverse and then die to its trigger when opponent cast a spell 😂😂 44:06

[@dylanbersano9488]

I think the one counter argument I have as primarily a blue player is this, choke is fine because I’m in the color that has counter spells and if I get caught lacking, I get caught. That’s not on the player playing choke; that’s on my ability to not properly threat manage