Naomi Klein: Tackling the “Doppelganger”, Disinformation & the Hidden Threat of Individualism

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Politics abhors a vacuum. Without credible explanations for the things that bewilder and exasperate us, people become susceptible to extremist conspiracy theories, hate and lies. So how does truth survive? In her brand new book, "Doppelganger: A Trip into the Mirror World”, award-winning journalist Naomi Klein, (author of No Logo, The Shock Doctrine, et al), describes being confused with Naomi Wolf, author of The Beauty Myth, as Wolf morphed into a conspiracy-minded anti-vaxxer during the Covid pandemic. In an era of all important "personal brands", Klein became absorbed in the deep fake, double worlds surrounding and sometimes coming to represent her online. Right-wing conspiracies feed off Left-wing silences, she concludes. In this far-ranging interview from her home in British Columbia, Canada, Klein describes listening to hours and hours of conspiracist Steve Bannon's podcasts, and researching doppelgangers in history and literature, in order to uncover why we have shadow selves, and how disinformation and conspiracy theories gain power. Join Laura Flanders for this charming conversation as Naomi Klein challenges us to overcome divide-and-conquer individualism if we are ever to tackle our real-life, systemic crises. And Laura shares a few thoughts on learning from our elders about the pre-digital age.
🔹 Topics Covered:
1️⃣ Disinformation & 'Mirror World Platforms': Why are alternative platforms becoming hotbeds for conspiracy theories? How can we address the spread of disinformation? What happens when conspiracy-minded figures are deplatformed from mainstream social media?
2️⃣ Draining Conspiracy Culture: Why does conspiracy culture hold such allure, and how do we drain conspiracy culture of its power?
3️⃣ The Pressure Cooker of Capitalism: Naomi Klein dives into capitalism and how it encourages us to "optimize" ourselves.
4️⃣ Collective Movement Building: Why collective action, rather than individualistic solutions, is the way forward to solve systemic problems.
5️⃣ Digital Identity Vs Real World: How is our perception of others distorted in the digital realm, and what can we do about it?
6️⃣ The Power of Activism: Discussing real human experiences, activism and community building to transcend the digital divide.
7️⃣ Learning from Our Elders: The importance of engaging with older generations to understand that different lifestyles and systems are not just possible, but have existed.
👥 Today’s Guest
1️⃣ Naomi Klein
Naomi Klein is the award-winning author of international bestsellers including This Changes
Everything, The Shock Doctrine, No Logo, No Is Not Enough, and On Fire, which have been
published in more than thirty-five languages. She is an associate professor in the department of
geography at the University of British Columbia, the founding co-director of UBC’s Centre for
Climate Justice, and an honorary professor of Media and Climate at Rutgers University. Her
writing has appeared in leading publications around the world, and she is a columnist for The
Guardian.
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[@0zoneTherapyW0rks]

Journalism needs to be restored to its original design. Touting official narratives for a living is a corrupt, lazy way to make a living.

[@bruces4515]

The terms "conspiracy" and "conspiracy theory" have different definitions. We have lost that distinction.

[@TheToltec]

One of the absolute funniest things in the whole wide world is when Ali G interviewed Naomi Wolf... My girl taught me that women overwhelmingly prefer to be referred to as beautiful than hot... But still that look on Naomi's face... hahahaha ❤️😅❤️😆

[@angelawildman122]

Naomi Wolf is creepy AF. It’s like she’s Klein’s evil twin from an evil parallel universe 🙀

[@FireweedFarm]

I just saw the Perry Mason episode where the word "doppelgänger" was used, and there are a number of other episodes of confusion about doubles. Also Bilko, (last episode?). Naomi Klein's thesis opens up thought on many things. I work on farm issues, and use a large amount of data to debunk various views that are not data based, but that arise from a key uses of data, invalidly used. So farmers, crops, (especially corn,) and states, (I'm from Iowa, which has been labeled as the "ground zero!" of this,) get farm subsidies, sometimes a lot. Likewise, some parts of the inner city get large quantities of food subsidies, and some families get much more than others, but that isn't valid evidence proving that they are in cahoots with "Big Food," big winners, where bad things in inner cities are "incentivized," (while good things in certain suburbs are not,) or that these inner cities represent the dominant lobby. Progressives know the truth about food subsidies, but believe myths rooted in the same logic when it comes to farm subsidies, and this in turn leads to all kinds of farmer bashing. They imagine that farmers in Iowa selling grain have the same interests as the giant agribusinesses buying it, and lobby for the same things. Farm Bureau, which is really an anti-farmer or "farmer front group" on this core interest of getting paid fairly seems to be a doppelgänger for the "Family Farm (Farm Justice) Movement." Progressives mostly don't look at the dominant economic context. Michael Pollan went viral taking this approach. Made money! Millions of farmers opposing agribusiness domination has been erased from history, in part because it's pre-internet. I just turned 70. I'm an elder, and Laura is right that we need to be listened to, because the young people that everyone wants to support don't know this deeper stuff. But Laura's show(s) is one that has bought into some of these myths, (which I reviewed some years ago, for example the one on the book Gristle). It's all about how it looks like adequate analysis, but isn't, just exactly as Naomi Klein has described it here. By the way, I've been banned from Civil Eats and the COMFOOD email list while trying to expose these myths. I think they have thought that I represent Farm Bureau! So what does that make me. I do, certainly understand why I'm misunderstood, I think. These are all good, well meaning people. Anyone can see a ton of evidence, (of history and of facts,) on my farm playlists.

[@snowstrobe]

I remember having to look up which was which a few years ago as I had got a bit confused, despite having read both of them...

[@carjam49]

I'm very glad I found this channel. The Shirley Sherrod story has troubled me for years, and I've always admired Naomi Klein. Actually, decades ago I also admired Naomi Wolf, so that's kind of sad.

[@LauraFlandersAndFriends]

Yes -- it's very concerning. Shirley Sherrod was on the show earlier this year: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bWbYdJJ7nr6ikKs

[@Ianpact]

Thank you, Naomi and Laura.

[@LauraFlandersAndFriends]

Thank you for watching!

[@gunnarhovde8230]

Thank you Naomi for giving me a reason for connecting to people outside the social networks and for ditching my iPhone in favour of a Nokia 3310

[@sublimeister9630]

The “threat of Individualism” also is a fascist slogan. There is no society without the consent of the individual, just as there is no “forest” because only trees exist (Osho). 🙏🏻😊

[@ladym1910]

I just posted a comprehensive comment critical of some of the information from this conversation and I find that it has been deleted. I assume it was deleted by KZbin. In the past when that has been the case, the owner of the channel has restored the comment.

[@James-ip1tc]

I am worried that many of my progressive or left-leaning groups have ceased in-person meetings due to ongoing COVID concerns, as if we are still in the harsh conditions of 2020. Unfortunately, it seems that only groups on the right are continuing with physical gatherings. Attempting to discuss this issue often leads to accusations of COVID denial, making dialogue difficult. I've been as nice as I possibly can and respect people's fears however I'm thinking that some people on the right may have had a point about lockdowns.

[@truthoverlies1820]

It would help if you stopped thinking in terms of left n right and replace it with truth and non truth.

[@sublimeister9630]

Naomi Klein seems to have forgotten Ralph Waldo Emerson & Henry David Thoreau… who inspired Gandhi. 🙏🏻😊

[@kathryntate6809]

Focus on the STRUCTURE.

[@kathryntate6809]

American consciousness was formed and developed for the profit motive of Capitalism, so it remains hard for people to be able to see.The operative word here is "structure"--how a capitalistic economy leads people into blind selfishness. A cooperative economic structure, on the other hand developed the ease ntial nature of all life: COOPERATION, a structure that brings all together.

[@MilwaukeeF40C]

Voluntary economic interaction is cooperation. Individuals might not do what you want. They might accumulate more wealth and power than you. Too bad.

[@angelawildman122]

Also I wish that Klein’s evil doppelgänger would stop insulting actual wolves with her last name. Real wolves aren’t at all like her!

[@MichaelShawcross]

Wasn't Naomi Klein a supermodel once? Maybe she still is.

[@lycanblud]

xD

[@NineInchTyrone]

So many conspiracy theories are TRUE

[@reinerwilhelms-tricarico344]

Her Doppelganger may be out there a bit and not easily agreeable, but the original Naomi Klein became a real tool of the "progressive" establishment, which is actually worse. I liked her once, and still like some of her work, but her social criticism is now mainly in defense of the status quo, trying to explain all the shit we have to deal with now, e.g. the dictate of the WEF and the UN, as "inevitable" outcome of the capitalist system. And according to both of these upper middle class, socially advanced, smart, and "highly educated" ladies, we are supposed to not give a damn about the working class, because presumably it got too easily captured by all the evil conspiracy mongers and "anti-vaxxers", and throw our full support behind Biden and Co to prevent Trump from happening, while postponing forever actual social change, and just keep dreaming a little about that grand "socialist" society of the distant future. So boring. So refined. So irrelevant. Nothing new.

[@johnsmith5139]

They are the inevitable outcomes of the capitalist system (well, not the UN). And she is criticizing the status quo: capitalism.

[@chrisd13086]

What? Lol

[@LastBref]

In other words, you're a Dimmy Jore stan and not nearly as smart as you think you are. Your entire criticism is full of falsehoods and devoid of actual substance. Please give us a citation of Naomi Klein saying "let's ignore the working class." You can't do it because you're making it up. Naomi Klein is anti-capitalist, class conscious and highly critical of mainstream liberals. Your whole thesis is baseless.

[@malcolmmarzo2461]

@reinerwilhelms-tricarico344: Your analysis is accurate. Thanks.

[@madnessintomagic]

Yeah. Let’s all just give in to the Trumpy slide into fascism because doing the right thing is too…. conformist? That’s not at all what she’s saying. Just because she explains that a thing *is* specifically because it IS a part of capitalism, doesn’t mean she’s excusing it. She’s just more accurately explaining it.

[@kathryntate6809]

Let us get very "real" about "disinformation"---our entire world is totally MAKE BELIEVE--And it is neither right nor left. Think it through.

[@johnsmith5139]

The world isn't make believe, it's real, and there are very real right and left wing forces, and they are substantially distinct from each other to justify the terms. We do ourselves no favors by pretending there aren't real political differences and that they don't matter.

[@SlickSimulacrum]

A dichotomy so abstract is useless to all but the most literate on its details. You are clearly not of the literate camp. Stick to the fundamentals, and stop pretending to know what that dichotomy is or is not. At least until you know where it came from, who it represented, why it represented them, and how narratives surrounding those representations are constructed, polluted, and misconstrued. Everything can be analyzed through the lens of left v right. You're just not well read enough to do it. Left v right is political philosophy, and almost nobody who uses the terminology understands it. Also, the political compass is just made up BS by people who don't have a clue. (just to be clear about how much you don't know)

[@fredgarvinMP]

@@SlickSimulacrum Eschew obfuscation, dude.

[@33333Tarun]

@@SlickSimulacrum Wow a classic shitlib.. do you even know what shitlib means you snotty snake you?

[@pelicanus4154]

Let me get this straight. Naomi Klein took a covid shot, Naomi Wolf did not and has been public about her reservations relating to its safety. This used to be called a difference of opinion & is protected under the first amendment. Now Klein has actually written a book throwing shade on Wolf b/c certain people (as far as we know) unrelated to Wolf have confused the two and now Klein's butthurt & effectively blaming Wolf for this. Here's a thought. Perhaps Klein should stop spinning on the confusion of readers too stupid to differentiate between her and Wolf. For the record I've read books by both and found each to be excellent. I've never confused them just as I have never confused John Irving with John Grisham. Klein should return to her area of expertise and leave the doppleganger woo woo to the pop psychology niche where it belongs.

[@LauraFlandersAndFriends]

Naomi Klein is not "throwing shade" at Naomi Wolf. Watch any interview from Klein and you'll see that. The book isn't "blaming" Wolf either -- it's exploring conspiracy culture, how Americans get sucked into it, and what we can do about this. You say you've read books from Klein, but if you haven't already . . . read Doppelganger. Just a thought!

[@TVRocks]

@@LauraFlandersAndFriends@LauraFlandersAndFriends Klein seems obsessed with Wolf. She repeatedly lied about Wolf, claiming she wrote a book with Steve Bannon and even made T-shirts with him. Please don't bother.

[@angelozachos8777]

So Naiomi Klein has designated herself official arbiter of what reality IS and what reality is NOT ? 😂 WOW 🤦‍♂️

[@59Gretsch]

I’m curious, did Naomi ever apologize for throwing her full support behind the socialist government of Venezuela? I don’t think so. When you look at the disaster, the total disaster that government brought to the people, how do they let her just distance yourself Or pretend that she didn’t wholeheartedly endorse that new government?