The Problem With The Terminator Franchise

[@Nerdstalgic]

Is Arnie the greatest action star of all time? Check out our other channel and vote! kzbin.info/www/bejne/oGa0dmpnbK13h6s

[@willier47]

Can we get a vid about Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles? I thought you were going to discuss that. It was a pretty good show. Didn't sustain enough viewers for Fox to keep it on.

[@ghallonefive]

Yep

[@Ganiscol]

Arguably. Everybody else is just running for a respectable 2nd place.

[@troeoekevorrochon5955]

t 1 i love t 2 i like t 3 i'm very meh about, t 4 i like, t 5 hate hate hate, t 6 hate it hate it hate it burn it with fire

[@SnowBunny_Elle]

3:35 Shows where YOU messed up...NOT the movie/franchise. It was YOUR opinion that was incorrect so you lashed out at any movie that came after. *** The place Terminator franchise screwed up is they do not understand their own Time Travel rules and they keep passing the Rights around so there the story has next to continuity unless we strain our brain to see it. BUT there is in fact a continuity...you just have not figured it out yet.

[@SnowyNightFlyer]

Terminator 1 and 2 are the only ones you need to see. They are nearly perfect.

[@mysterykiddo2167]

There are no other movies other than them

[@deleted_215]

Maybe also Salvation as a spin off but not part of the main series. I personally like that it tried to be different and tried to show us the war that was talked about so much

[@ranwolf7650]

I thought the tv series was good

[@dfunkt2291]

@@ranwolf7650 Yeah I agree - T1, T2 and Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (set a few years after T2) are all great. TSCC made a great third installment, and should never have been cancelled. Lena Headey and Thomas Dekker are great as Sarah and John Connor.

[@elkikex]

T1 is a little slow and feels dated, T2 is pure gold.

[@nicolasgarant9124]

I think my big issue with the franchise is it's overreliance on retconning itself. After T3 I was salty enough, Salvation kinda brought me back in, then Genisys really broke the camel's back and Dark Fate burried it

[@ic215]

T3 was great, the hell?

[@joey2894]

He said he was salty, most likely referring to the ending contradicting the victory and theme of Terminator 2 (future not set/no fate but what we make)

[@g.d.graham2446]

Salvation wasn't that bad, tbh

[@Mgbeatz_Icrowdx]

T3 and salvation were very good

[@shredd5705]

@@Mgbeatz_Icrowdx No, they are all pure garbage, T1 and T2 are the only good ones. Anyone disagreeing is simply an idiot with a bad movie taste

[@MidnightClubStillCancelledSoz]

The Terminator Franchise is something I consider a good opportunity that comes along, but then gets mercilessly exploited 'till there's nothing left.

[@apex2000]

Yeah no kidding, squander too not just exploited. I mean all good ideas wasted. While maring the originals.

[@worsethanhitlerpt.2539]

Yes in T3 Arnold is just a walking dumbass saying random robotic shit and you know the series is in trouble. He was a fully formed character in T2 and then they regressed to make him a joke in T3. Then it got worse in later sequels which seems impossible

[@brandonjenkins723]

Salvation is underrated as a stand-alone post judgement day movie. It really isn’t that bad

[@DasMuse]

Salvation is the only sequel after T2 that I watch regularly. I wish they continued that story.

[@Rg-fp2vg]

That’s where the story ends for me, with the alternate ending where John Conner dies and Marcus takes his skin and is the new John Conner

[@mercenaryknight5419]

@@Rg-fp2vg I disagree there, Only John is John Connor.

[@Rg-fp2vg]

@@mercenaryknight5419 John Conner is a legend, a name, an icon. Hope. He’s unbreakable and is not human. That’s why a machine leading the humans is so perfect but ironic

[@mercenaryknight5419]

@@Rg-fp2vg Only problem with that is it runs totally contrary to what the first two films set up. So while a lofty sentiment it fails continuity-wise. You can like it, but it does not gel with Cameron's vision, and that is a reason it was dropped. That and most fans would not go for the idea anyway.

[@chrisclark7285]

The problem with subsequent Terminator movies is they don't understand what makes Terminators compelling. The T800 was scary because the audience has no idea how, or even if, it can be killed. The T1000 ups the stakes by being even more tough. All the sequels after that have introduced terminators that are more capable, maybe even more dangerous, but they never feel unstoppable like the first 2.

[@voltinator]

I don't think the problem was the terminators that showed up later. They were really just adjustments on the T1000. The real problem was that subsequent Terminators didn't represent a social threat. The T800 was originally the embodiment of the unstoppable drugged out rapist - a real mythic bad guy in the 80s. The T1000 was the embodiment of the discreet pedophile - again a real social threat in the placid 90s. Where do you go from there? Team terminator???The black widow trope with a female terminator in T3 would have worked if John Connor wasn't a scrub and someone rich and famous which would have made more sense symbolically. And Terminator Salvation was a botched, overdramatic war story with no point and none of the aesthetic of a future war zone, again this attributes to the fact that there is no Terminator representing a dynamic social threat.

[@sm4carnageihope]

@@voltinator In defence of Terminator Salvation not looking like the future depicted in the other movies, it was only set in 2018, they were planning to further develop into the dark skies and lazer guns. But they never got around to those.

[@voltinator]

@@sm4carnageihope Terminator Salvation was the definition of mumblecore.

[@sm4carnageihope]

@@voltinator Yet I'd still watch it over the other post T2 films.

[@scottdick296]

@@voltinator That's a really good point. I don't know if I'd say the T1000 was playing on fears of "discreet pedophiles" though. I mean, it's about a troubled teen in foster care and his institutionalized mother being ruthlessly hunted and attacked by a guy in a police uniform, while a former bad guy dressed like a biker tries to protect them. The symbolism there isn't exactly subtle.

[@Spazzboy911]

Terminator 1/2 had an internal myth: the machine wars, and John Connor's rise to heroism. Terminator 3 was too 'close' to that myth, T4 showed a lame rendition of that myth, T5 ignored the myth, and T6 killed the myth

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

not everything has to be a "myth" for it to be compelling or a creative world and WTF is this "too close" to the myth in terminator 3? What? That doesn't make any sense and doesn't hit the problems with that film and T4 didn't really show a "lame rendition" but had messed up on a scattered few aspects.

[@Spazzboy911]

@@Gadget-Walkmen thanks for the creative input, beavis. really upping the average IQ of the conversation there, champ. we'll keep your notes in consideration.

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

@@Spazzboy911 WOW for real? This coming from the guy who said these extremely “myth” claims and somehow expect to make sense when said out loud like that and now you want to act like pseudo intelligential snarky responses? It’s not my fault that you can’t explain any of the crap you just said and you have to reply on snarky nonsense like that to mask your lack of clarity on whatever the hell that rubbish even mean your trying to say. Yes I’m sure whatever input I added will be great latter on when you or ANYONE actually learn how to explain what your saying with any of this vague false nonsense. Keep that on your notes when you get out class from school. Oh yeah and great late reply, I’m sure it took you a while to come up with that. Jesus imagine waking up to this day.

[@Spazzboy911]

@@Gadget-Walkmen ouch, my self esteem. your words matter to me so much, i'll be pondering this for years to come, haunted by what depth i'm missing out on, by how pathetic i am that some random fucking looser on the internet can so easily upstage me on a youtube video comment. however will i go on, living in such defeat. how will i face myself knowing how hard i've been pwned. oh the humanity. i must re-evaluate my life and the choices i've made up until this moment, and only you could have brought me to this revelation. thank you, stranger, for showing me the way with such wisdom and grace. surely, the world is a better place, all thanks to this comment you've gifted us.

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

@@Spazzboy911 Jesus Christ, really? Imagine waking up to this rubbish. How long did it take you to come up with this self wank? The term “random fucking loser” suits you perfectly with coming with load of trash garbage like this and delusionally believing this snarky deflection is making you look good for a fraction of a second. This has nothing to do with “upstaged” anyone in a comment but I’d guess that’s something that’s obviously too difficult for you to understand when you say crap like this.

[@atlas_vash]

The sarah connor chronicles should've honestly been the end because that show was incredible and really did well with portraying how tense it would probably be to be hunted by a killer robot and being on the run

[@dfunkt2291]

100% agree. I think T1, T2 and TSCC make a perfect trilogy, but TSCC should not have been cancelled when it was. Absolutely love Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles - it's way underrated / largely unknown

[@Nuke_Skywalker]

TSCC was amazing, especially later in the show.

[@CameronHuff]

Agreed

[@tanelviil9149]

"How The Terminator Franchise Terminated Itself" ---------------------- easy, crazy leftist WOKE people were let to make the movies after the 4 th movie.

[@NeptuneNoire]

@@tanelviil9149 This is basically all it boils down too. Salvation was the last major movie in the franchise that tried to keep it about the story. While Genisys and especially Dark Fate fcked everything up. John is no longer our hero, but some tiny Mexican girl from down south with an androgynous woman who is in love with said savior.

[@colinakersakers44]

It really sucks that this franchise fell apart. Especially since T2 is my favorite movie of all time

[@FinancialShinanigan]

More powerful than a unstoppable metal skeleton is movie studios' desire for money.

[@justiceplay_s]

As far as the films go yes I agree for the most part The game Terminator resistance is doing a wonderful job at showing a glimpse into that future war that we never got to really truly experience outside of flashbacks and the beginning of that said war

[@moe1829]

For me that game is the real sequel to T2 Everything else is bad fan fiction

[@TelestoTheBesto]

It's funny to think that the company who made one of the absolute worst games in existence went on to be the only one to make a worthy sequel to Terminator 2.

[@THX-bz8bi]

Terminator 1, 2 and Salvation are good.

[@tanelviil9149]

"How The Terminator Franchise Terminated Itself" ---------------------- easy, crazy leftist WOKE people were let to make the movies after the 4 th movie.

[@geraldstephens6612]

@@tanelviil9149 Including James Cameron, who regained the rights to the Terminator?

[@Coralskipper]

I'm still angry The Sarah Connor Chronicles got cancelled. It was so good and didn't feel derivative of anything. It was different and actually additive. I love the hinted at three side war that was going on in the future. I do understand it was an expensive show and didn't deliver the ratings it needed to survive, but man I miss it

[@redlightmax]

The Sarah Connor Chronicles lost me in the first episode, when... ...the teacher-terminator pauses his pursuit of John Connor to say, "Class dismissed."🤦‍♂

[@martymcflyy7933]

Of all the sequels salvation was the most unique. The others just tried to make t2

[@michaelmcdonnell3905]

They can't get out of T2 which is the template, we can't change the template.

[@g.d.graham2446]

Agreed

[@Mgbeatz_Icrowdx]

Agreed

[@roberttreacy8271]

I agree.

[@fluffywolfo3663]

When Dark Fate released, I was like "...Terminator Salvation? hey, I owe you an apology."

[@NostalgiaBoiLofi]

Linda Hamilton was a strong female lead. Awesome that James Cameron would write her in that way, especially so long ago when male leads were far more predominant.

[@irishspagetti6565]

yeah she was a strong female lead when it wasn't really political and it wasn't shoehorned in to please the woke masses like it is now

[@Iroquois2688]

The TV show was near perfection, I wished there was more attention being drawn to it since I know A LOT of Terminator fans had no idea how great plot in that show is.

[@lauroralei]

1 was a great movie. 2 was not only an incredible action film anyway, but it brought the characters back and completely subverted the premise. But you can't really subvert a subversion. All subsequent films should have just been completely new characters set within that Universe somewhere.

[@rasmuszembski1913]

The first two movies are masterpieces and more than enough for me to ignore the circus afterwards. I notice a similar pattern with genre switches in another franchise dear to me; Alien. The first movie was more of a thriller and the second more action oriented with a bigger budget, but they are both awesome in their own way.

[@maxrichards3881]

I liked every Alien movie to some degree except for Resurrection.

[@phoqueme]

What sucks about Terminator Salvation is that Christian Bale, as always, gave a great performance. I really liked his John Connor

[@mrliteral9347]

How does "great performance" = "sucks"?

[@MaxIronsThird]

@@mrliteral9347 Bc the movie around him isn't as good.

[@tanelviil9149]

"How The Terminator Franchise Terminated Itself" ---------------------- easy, crazy leftist WOKE people were let to make the movies after the 4 th movie.

[@rorychivers8769]

@@tanelviil9149 Are you going to post the same reply to every comment or do you actually have something constructive to do with your life?

[@tanelviil9149]

@@rorychivers8769 cry

[@darkwoods1954]

Salvation was a disappointment as it didn't reflect the amazing future war we'd seen in the flash forwards in T1 and T2 but it's still the only sequel past 2 that's worth watching. It at least does something different and goes where the franchise needs to if Hollywood insist on continuing it.

[@mrblob5413]

We never got that blue and purple laser movie.

[@JemRau]

@@mrblob5413 You can blame the Baywatch movie for that

[@cloudbyx9970]

tru dat... but i prefer Genisys over salvation because it didn't reach my expectation while Genisys isn't a great movie but it's fun to watch

[@rahiemturner9504]

@@mrblob5413Because it’s the early stages of the war you fool

[@RJTheHero8]

They cut out the original ending to T2 in favor of it being open-ended. Obviously, the original or "Alternate" ending wraps things up with a nice bow and does away with the possibility of sequels being made. It's not surprising that studio intervention put the kibosh to that because of their "my money" mentality. They'd rather milk an idea dry than let it die with dignity.

[@mrclaytron]

Yeah I totally agree. I was obsessed with Terminator in the 80s. Then when T2 came out I went totally nuts over it. T3 was a MASSIVE let down (though, it’s actually better than some of the trash that followed it!) Salvation was interesting. I was really pumped for this movie. I was cautious because I’m not a fan of McG as a director. But the idea of seeing the future war was very exciting. The trailer for this movie was REALLY good (although after seeing the film, I realised the trailer totally gave away the Marcus Wright plot twist in the film!) I actually thought the first half of Salvation wasn’t bad. But then it just turned to shit after the “twist” (which we knew was coming anyway) For me, there’s only two Terminator movies.

[@homelessjesse9453]

They really should've stopped after T2. Perfect ending. No reason to go any further. Why Arnold never went back to finish off the Conan series is beyond me.

[@osmanyousif7849]

They did Sarah Conner dirty in Rise of the Machines though....

[@plbenton]

These are my EXACT thoughts.

[@ic215]

Why do people keep saying T3 a massive let down. It clearly more closer to both films than T5 andT6

[@Mgbeatz_Icrowdx]

@@homelessjesse9453 money

[@makatron]

Out of all the sequels after T2, I like Salvation best. It tried to show us how have the work done by going back to save Sarah and then John have actually changed the future. It had loads of potential but then by the time you reach the third act you know they missed their chance.

[@worsethanhitlerpt.2539]

My friend had the DVD for Salvation and said it was the best Terminator movie. I just looked at him shocked like he just told me he was a gay Pedophile.

[@lateralhistory]

Feels really weird to have this conversation and not make any mention of The Sarah Connor Chronicles. Especially as it feels like everything that disappointed fans in the movies was provided in the show. Deeper exploration of the characters and themes, great action set pieces, and a tendency to avoid easy answers in favor of giving the audience something to actually think about. The show had some filler episodes and could be navel-gazey at times, but it was overall an underrated gem of 2000s television. I'm guessing it's not on any current streaming services, and / or Nerdstalgic is too young to have watched it when it aired? TSCC wasn't a movie but Cameron was still involved with the show and it feels like it warrants a mention in any discussion of the sequels, prequels and reboots of the Terminator universe.

[@dfunkt2291]

TSCC is actually the perfect third instalment after T1 and T2 imo. My guess is he has not seen it.... otherwise how could he omit it from the franchise? It's freaking great.

[@FearsEdge]

I felt like every other attempt to depict JC after T2 was just to undermine or eliminate him entirely. But TSCC does a great job of maintaining his future status as a messianic figure while still playing with and examining that idea and how it would affect other people. They even did a good job of showing how this boy has the qualities that would make him that figure. I would say he grows into a man over the course of the 2 seasons which is a feat in and of itself for a main character of a TV series.

[@darrell9616]

@@FearsEdge You must have watched a different TSCC than I did because I never saw anything in that John that would lead me to believe that he ever had a chance of leading a chow run much less an army.

[@FearsEdge]

​@@darrell9616 He showed bravery and the ability to act under pressure on multiple occasions. His scene where he interrogates Jesse is one of my favorites where I think it shows his maturity, confidence, and intellect. He was definitely still a kid through the first part of the show, making immature and impulsive decisions but I think he had become a man by the end, willing to trust in working with the machines (whatever faction that was, the show wasn't able to get there) if he thought it would help win the war. It's far from perfect, I would give the show like a 7.5/10 but it was way better than anything hollywood has shat out with the terminator name after T2.

[@darrell9616]

@@FearsEdge No question it was better than the movies. The show runner really made some head scratching decisions with the show. Conceptually, it was great, with good characters. The overall character development and pacing were very uneven. Your example was the only highlight for me regarding John. Otherwise, he exercised very poor judgement most of the time. If they had used Derek better, he could have helped John. IMO both characters were done a disservice, Cameron too. She should have been featured far more than she was.

[@brianblumenreich9026]

The Terminator and Terminator 2: Judgment Day are great movies! Two of my favorites!

[@MikeB12800]

It’s a straightforward story that really only had one place to go…. To the war. Instead they just kept recycling the same story. Salvation failed to focus on the war we know, that being John Connor leading the resistance…. Instead it was filled with characters we don’t know or care about, and John being a background character.

[@linkaran512]

Salvation was supposed to the first of a war trilogy. Shame it wasn't given a chance.

[@selfiekroos1777]

I don't care what people say, T3 wasn't bad. Not as good as 1&2, but not terrible.

[@anubusx]

It's hard to believe that Cameron is working on a seventh film.

[@arnavnigam9259]

​@@anubusx now, wtf they'll do

[@mahatmarandy5977]

Nice insights! I particularly like where you stressed that they need to understand *why* a property works. I feel like that's an increasingly serious problem. Since Star Trek came back, it's been stabbing around aimlessly in the dark with no clue what it's supposed to be, Stargate is about to come back, and they've already announced they're changing one of the core concepts of the show, Babylon 5 is being rebooted and, well, I'm fearful. Dr. Who has become more and more of a muddle. I don't resent these properties coming back, I would always welcome more of a show I love, but I often feel like the people who end up in charge of these franchises honestly don't understand what made them work.

[@johnwalker1058]

Thank you, you put it into words. If you don't have the original creator(s) bringing back a franchise or fandom, you need someone who understood the original creator's/creators' vision well enough to replicate them to a decent extent, at least for the core parts that are crucial to what made the franchise or fandom what it is. Sure, some minor changes here and there are fine, but if too much of what is central to the franchise or fandom is altered, and not replaced by something equal or better at least, then a reboot of such a franchise or fandom will look less like a resurrection done by Jesus and more like a reanimation of an undead corpse like Frankenstein. It will be a shell or husk of its former glory and fall very short to its previous, original version in terms of quality (likely to the point where leaving it dead or gone and moving on would have been more satisfying than creating something cringey at best or further polluting existence with a new abomination at worst).

[@mahatmarandy5977]

John Walker yes! Exactly! I like the Frankenstein bit in particular. :) I think the best example of a reboot I've personally seen was the animated remake of Space Battleship Yamato/Star Blazers, which didn't really have a lot of contact with the people who made the original show 40 years earlier, but who really solidly understood the core. They kept the bones of the story, expanded on the stuff that worked, dropped the stuff that didn't, added a lot of new characters and complexity, and ended up with a show that could justify its own existence as something more than a cash grab or nostalgia bait. Which, when you think about it, is pretty amazing when we're talking about a dumb cartoon about a world war 2 battleship in space. Because the people who remade it understood it and loved it, but weren't blind to the flaws. Meanwhile when Disney attempted to do a live action movie version of it in the 90s their script was just a complete abomination. The new lost in space is not bad either. Nobody is more surprised than me by that, but even though it is a much less faithful adaptation, The bones are there and they did pretty good stuff with them. Which I wouldn't mention except that this is the fourth time someone has attempted to remake that damn show before anybody got it right. (Including the orig nal, if i'm honest :) )

[@tanelviil9149]

"How The Terminator Franchise Terminated Itself" ---------------------- easy, crazy leftist WOKE people were let to make the movies after the 4 th movie.

[@PrincessAshley972]

Wait, they're bringing back Stargate?

[@mahatmarandy5977]

Undertaker9711 apparently. MGM has been interested in reviving the franchise, but that got put on hold when the studio went up for sale. Now that Apple has purchased MGM, there is still some significant interest in reviving it. There have been a lot of meetings with the producers from the original three shows, one of them has been assured that he will be in charge of whatever they end up doing, and MGM has also said that whenever Stargate comes back, be at next year or a decade from now, it will be set in the same continuity as the original three shows. It was moving forward, but then the studio purchase and Covid slowed things down considerably, but it is evidently moving forward again, though as far as I know no contracts have been signed. John Mallozi has been teasing little details about the new show though, and most people expect one within the next couple years tops

[@RyanAnthonyDigitalMedia]

I liked T3 & Salvation. You just can’t compare them to 1 or 2 cuz those are classics.

[@harrycollins3248]

Same.

[@guilhermehank4938]

I prefer salvation from all of the sequels since it's the only one that isn't copying 1 and 2

[@cloudbyx9970]

Judgment Day > T1 > Genisys > Rise of the Machines > Salvation i haven't seen Dark Fate yet

[@Mgbeatz_Icrowdx]

@@cloudbyx9970 it sucks , is like any other T movie that tried to copy T2

[@roberttreacy8271]

I agree. T3 and Salvation do have their issues, but I can’t bring myself to hate them.

[@dfunkt2291]

As far as I'm concerned, the only worthy inclusions are; T1, T2 and Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles. There's nothing else.

[@adamromero]

Even though it's not really a film, I'd throw in T2: 3D as a bonus.

[@zeo4481]

Lol keep going. Keep pretending everything you didn't like didn't happen. Good think you didn't design our world!

[@dfunkt2291]

@@zeo4481yeah that makes sense 🙄

[@ic215]

And T3

[@ther3aper561]

I remember liking Salvation because it gave a nice glimpse into the future, which is what I wanted growing up in the late 90s/early 00s. I'd have to rewatch it to see if I still felt that way, but when it came out I liked it enough

[@shawnkarg3794]

Now, one problem this franchise has had since T2 (and I love T2) the story doesn't lend itself to the scrutiny of being watched repeatedly. T3 is where it really starts to show. I think the movie works, if you just enjoy it for what it is, but the more you watch it, the more it starts to unravel.

[@Masada1911]

It was never intended to be a franchise

[@PatrickStewarts]

Correct it was only supposed to be 2 films.

[@KyleReaume]

The Terminator to me is the perfect and ultimate proof that a movie and it's one sequel does not equal a franchise and lots of things can be just two great movies. The issue with Terminator is that its not easily franchisable, especially since almost every film has to write a new timeline.

[@markchapman6800]

See also Alien and Aliens.

[@DinoDave150]

@@markchapman6800 Alien could have continued as a franchise, but they didn't need to keep bringing back Ellen Ripley and could have just followed a new protagonist since her story was done at the end of Aliens.

[@KyleReaume]

@@markchapman6800 Yeah!!

[@markchapman6800]

@@DinoDave150 I personally doubt it. The initial concept was inherently claustrophobic and thus inward looking, and would have taken some brilliant writing to successfully expand into a universe that could sustain multiple sequels.

[@tanelviil9149]

"How The Terminator Franchise Terminated Itself" ---------------------- easy, crazy leftist WOKE people were let to make the movies after the 4 th movie.

[@perfectionbox]

what's despicable about franchises is that you can never get closure, you can never move on. I don't want to be stuck in a loop.

[@Cheetowitcheese]

Am I the only one that likes the franchise as a whole? Granted I think the first two are classics but man did I really enjoy Dark Fate and was pumped as hell to see Linda and Arnold back at it again and man did it not disappoint. The climax of the film was some of the best stuff I've seen from this franchise but anyway.

[@NeoConnor1]

You aren't the only one. I enjoy the entire franchise too. I have accepted no movie is gonna beat T2, but it doesn't invalidate those films either. I also really enjoyed The Sarah Connor Chronicles as well, and feel that it's a follow-up that needs more attention.

[@MaximumAlx]

I’m a firm believer that terminator Sarah Connor Chronicles was truly the best terminator work since one and two. They kind of got it on all levels and hands-down has one of the best versions of John Connor portrayed in media that I’ve seen.

[@henriknobinder7395]

2:44 The problem is that according to the first movie's logic, there are no circles to close. What we saw in that movie was a closed causality loop. Skynet, in a desperate last-ditch effort to rid itself of its enemy, inadvertently creates the conditions for both its own and John Connor's creation. There is no "original" timeline. The past can't be changed. Things are happening the way they have always had. T2, by getting rid of this concept and saying that the past can indeed be changed, therefore doesn't close any circles, but rather opens up the possibility for further sequels with more and more inane wibbly wobbly time shenanigans. This is absolutely not unintentional. Rather, Cameron's reasoning for making the change was that there was no franchise potential for a story with a closed causality loop as its focal point. I would therefore actually go as far as to argue that while T2 is undeniably a good movie, it is in fact a terrible sequel to The Terminator as it undermines its premise and lays the foundation that makes all the movies that follow it so braindead. The franchise therefore shouldn't have ended after T2, but rather already after the first movie. If a sequel absolutely needed had to be made at all, it should probably just have told us the story of the war John Connor fought in the future rather than being yet another time travel story.

[@jacobsmith1877]

I loved Arnold in Terminator Dark Fate as Carl the draperies specialist.

[@mikaengelhardt1854]

I've been thinking about this for a while and if I got to continue the franchise, I'd go into a lower budget, horror-oriented direction more akin to 2020s "The Invisible Man". What if the protagonist knew that a Terminator was after them but didn't know who it was out of their circle of friends? Something like that. The end could have some action, but keep it more contained, character-based and creepy body-horror-y.

[@christophermoriarty3274]

Like The Terminator meets It Follows. I like it.

[@mikaengelhardt1854]

@@christophermoriarty3274 yeah, something like that. It could be a totally cheap movie to make and still be scary and effective.

[@josefagomezschmeisser8356]

Terminator among us, damn you are a genius

[@Skittenmeow]

Mika this idea is awesome!

[@KingOfMadCows]

It would have been interesting if they developed Skynet's side more. The whole reason why the movies happen is because Skynet was defeated by the humans and it's trying to prevent that from happening by sending Terminators into the past. Both humans and Skynet are trying to change date.

[@charlespuruncajas9663]

The franchise should have followed the future storyline Salvation established. The last two movies share the same theme: John Connor no longer relevant as a protagonist (making him the villain or killing him at the beginning), people and fans want to see his character arc completed

[@carrottopevans]

Thank you, Nerdstalgic! Great holiday episodes and always appreciate your attention to detail!

[@shane3x]

I think the tv show did what the sequels never could.

[@RafitoOoO]

Cameron punted Dark Fate really hard. With all the OGs back in town I thought they'd do a quality product.

[@HHH-ye1ro]

T3 was great. Really inventive. Loved the ending. The rest were garbage.

[@VanishedPNW]

You hit the nail completely flush, on the head, nailed it all the way into the board. 100% agree.

[@SimianScience]

3 shoulda been something closer to salvation with the opening of genesys to cap off the series. watching Reese come up and get sent back in time woulda been cool

[@TheJadedJames]

The story was resolved after Terminator 2. The only thing I think you could possibly do after Terminator 2 is a movie about the future war that ends with Kyle Reese going back in time, making the series a big loop. But every new Terminator movie is made hedging bets about more sequels. None of them seem to have a actual conclusion in mind, which makes them feel even more useless for undoing the ending of Terminator 2 and each other. The entire central conflict of the Terminator universe feels limp and pointless now

[@therealseanw.stewart2071]

Terminator is like Home Alone: only the first two movies matter.

[@velocix5443]

*Only the first one.

[@Arirezz]

Your "time is a flat circle" is basically just determinism with extra steps

[@roguerifter9724]

I actually liked Terminator Salvation. I remember going and seeing it with my parents for my birthday then seeing it again with my best friend the next day. It wasn't the All Machine War Terminator movie I had hoped for since I first saw T2 at a friend's house when I was eight but I enjoyed it and thought continuing from it would have been a much better path for the franchise then either Gyensis or Dark Fate.

[@captainvader921]

Honestly T3 is the only one after T2 that is the closest to a good movie I think, the rest can be forgotten about

[@starlighter93]

While the first two are obvious cinematic masterpieces, I still enjoy T3 and Salvation. In T3 I liked the idea that John is kinda lost and without a purpose, the idea that Judgment day can't be prevented only delayed. I also like the ending. Salvation had some good bits, too, though it didn't have that classic future war vibe. I saw Genisys in theatre. Haven't watched it again. The only thing I remember were the remade scenes from T1. But after that I stopped caring. Never saw Dark Fate, though.

[@jamesmoyner7499]

Two that was all that was needed TWO FILMS! No sequels, reboots, tv shows, just two films!

[@Scienceguy721]

I had an idea about where the Terminator franchise could go. I thought what if Skynet didn't just go after the leader of the resistance but anyone who gave humanity a fighting edge. For example, an engineer who makes the weapons that gives humanity a chance or the software engineer who makes a devastating computer virus. And there would be this twist, well not so much twist, that the Terminator sent after these new characters come from different timelines. That with each interaction a Terminator has with the past the future slightly changes. But because Terminators are as subtle as a fourth of July fireworks display, stories of metal men permeate the cultural zeitgeist it sort of creates this most likely future of Terminators but one that is not certain. Which would explain why every Terminator post T2 has different abilities. I just think this could have the possibility of maintaining the theme of the cyclical nature of time while allowing some room for expansion.

[@ufofireninja99]

They somewhat did this concept in the beginning for Terminator 3 where the terminator was killing off the young people who would grow up to be secondary leaders in the resistance

[@dfunkt2291]

You need to watch the series 'Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles' - set a few years after T2, and it does a number of these things. Lena Headey and Thomas Dekker and Sarah and John Connor... and Summer Glau and other great actors star. It's kinda fantatsic.

[@tanelviil9149]

"How The Terminator Franchise Terminated Itself" ---------------------- easy, crazy leftist WOKE people were let to make the movies after the 4 th movie.

[@Reijen]

As others have mentioned, media like T3 did show Skynet killing off younger versions of the resistance leadership. There was also a Terminator comic I read not too long ago about a Latina cop running from a terminator, because I think either she or her unborn child were going to be a leader in the resistance.

[@jbcatz5]

Dark Horse published a comic book miniseries called Terminator: Sector War, which was set at the same time as the first movie within the contemporary present day, but in another city and following another target for temporal termination. The Terminator franchise tried to center itself around the lives of Sarah and John Conner, how they were intrinsic to the dark fate of the future war, when there were other stories about other people waiting to be told. Dark Fate even straight up killed John in the prologue with little fanfare. The increasing use of time travel also served to undermine that in the original, it was a last ditch attempt by SkyNet to turn events in favour of the machines. By Genesys, it’s gotten to the point any John, Kyle or Sarah can stash a time machine for emergency use and jump ahead a few decades. It’s the set up for Sarah Connor Chronicles and Genesys.

[@CHRISPYakaKON]

What’s disappointing is that it has so much potential as a franchise despite the terrible sequels minus dark fate

[@shinndig1293]

I’ve learned to warm up and appreciate T3: Rise of the Machines more and more now after suffering through Salvation, Genysis and especially Dark Fate.

[@johnrb0213]

I strongly disagree that it overstayed its welcome. It just seems like these people have no clue what story elements and themes draw us into the series. A good follow up story code have been figured out from there .Real consideration for the style of the prior films. Real organic consequences of where t2 left off. Or tell a new story that feels like it comes from this world at LEAST. In my opinion ...beat for beat. .everything about it...Logan is the Perfect model for what a new terminator movie should be. Strip away the flash and get a focused, intimate road story going. Barely surviving. Not knowing how to escape this. ...no 3rd act cgi explosion. Just character and struggle. Honest to God I'd watch a drama about Sarah and John Connor rebuilding their life after t2 over some over the top Sci fi action sequel. Not that it's what I want...but THAT is a more natural story to tell in that world. Never should have killed John connor. Never should have done the trendy thing and replace him with a character to check off boxes for inclusion. The series already had a Perfect and believable badass in Sarah Connor. If I wrote that movie I'd have aimed for a road movie about Sarah and John taking out the last few remaining Arnold lookalike robots that came back in time. Just erasing what was left of sky net

[@mikey2toes966]

I think the squeals suck cause they rely to much on Arnold’s acting abilities. The first one made sense cause he was a machine wearing a skin suit. So he didn’t talk much and lost the skin in the end reminding everyone he was a machine. After that the challenge was to keep as much skin on him as possible to keep Arnold talking.

[@msgsgt]

The 3rd terminator was pretty good and had subverted expectations “the future /past can not be unwritten”. The whole time the audience is expecting to win and stop judgment day. The machines tried to kill John and John tires to stop the rise of machines. You can delay the end but ultimately the end is inevitable. Much like the popularity of the series. After 3 it looks like they tried to evolve by showing more of the actual war. All except dark fate which is just a re-skin reboot of the characters, i thought they told the whole story from John connors origins until his demise “becoming the terminator / leader /protector of Skynet”

[@Moody-Boy]

I'm glad someone else likes the third movie. My college roommate and I loved how the "bitch" get's it in the end. Haha!

[@ryanelliott71698]

0:21 yeah that pretty much summarizes it. Outside of Salvation, the ready just regurgitate the same plot of the first 2 with only tiny tweaks around the edge.

[@SrFudge]

As long as a series makes money it won't die anytime soon

[@bigb5362]

The terminator franchise hasn’t done very good money wise inna while lol

[@megaduck7965]

I had thought they weren’t able to self terminate , but the T800 proved me wrong at least four times

[@ontasbulent5709]

Terminator franchise: so the story is done it’s time for me to rest Hollywood: good joke I will not let you go until I can take everything single coin I can get from you

[@robmarconi6758]

There's not many movies where the director of the original movie becomes the producer of the sequel and the sequel being good occurs

[@grimm_destroyer5566]

All you need is T1 and T2 glad I am a literal Terminator and grew up off these first 2 classics lol

[@oftenspanx]

The first two, classics, with the sequel being the single best argument for the concept of "sometimes, rarely, a sequel can be better than the original" and while yes, it leans far more into action, is still horror. Less "unstoppable, literal killing machine out to get you and all you can do is run" (though that' definitely still there) it sheds light on the macro scale of the existential horror of humanity's doomed fate if they don't try to change it, the nuclear blast scene, while not exactly realistic, is visceral and horrifying. T2: Judgement Day is like the RE4 of the Terminator franchise; excellent action, still maintains horror vibes while escalating the threat to focus on not just John or Sarah's lives/wellbeing, but also bringing the WHY their lives are so important with all that's truly at stake. The rest range from "not that great - to pretty terrible" but are all, I would argue, fun. Then the latest film happened, and I personally add it to the first two as a must watch, because I found it to be pretty fucking great, and if you pretend the others after T2 never happened, fits much more nicely into the series.

[@cameronvincent]

A endless stream of comebacks to the first movie

[@graphosxp]

0:58 "..he dreamed of an unstoppable metal skeleton tracking him down attempting to kill him after developing this idea further.." That's a nice story except... "So, Ellison and his attorneys then contacted Hemdale (the financiers of The Terminator) and Orion (the movie's distributor) to discuss a payment or settlement, with the obvious threat of a lawsuit in case none was offered. And soon after this initial contact, Ellison's complaint received even more support. A Houston criminal defense attorney might have agreed that Ellison seemed to have some grounds for a lawsuit “About a week after my attorney contacted Hemdale, I got a call from the editor of Starlog magazine. ....It turned out Cameron had given an interview to Starlog and, after I began inquiring at Hemdale, [The Terminator producer Gale Anne] Hurd sent Starlog a legal demand to see the interview.” According to Ellison, Gale Anne Hurd then modified Starlog's article on The Terminator. She omitted a quote from Cameron in the article that read, “'Oh, I took a couple of Outer Limits segments.'” The reason that the Starlog editor had contacted Ellison was to provide him with the original version of the article, the one without Gale Anne Hurd's editing. Said Ellison, “At this point we went to Hemdale and to Orion and we said, 'I'm afraid we got him with the smoking gun. Now do you want to do something about this or do you want us to whip your ass in open court? We'd be perfectly happy to do it either way.'” Between the account of Tracy Torme and the Starlog interview, the attorneys for Hemdale and Orion quickly realized that they wanted no part of a lawsuit, by Ellison's accounts. “They took one look at this shit and their attorneys said, 'Settle.'”

[@tskmaster3837]

Good artists borrow, great artists steal, those that have fanboys get historical rewrites. But, yeah, I knew about the Outer Limit "inspiration".

[@graphosxp]

​@@tskmaster3837 I don't think Cameron is a thief. I would call 1984's Terminator mildly derivative of Ellison's prior art. By admitting as much Cameron attracted the infamous ire of Ellison who was very protective of his works. Ellison made compelling arguments that many writers are not properly paid and live hand to mouth as it is, and deserve to get their due if and when the money rolls in. As a young man I thought Ellison was a real a-hole, but now that i'm old I REALLY understand that money is even more necessary with increased age and ill health. This video cheats the audience of something wonderful when it leaves Ellison's contribution out of the Terminator creation story. The creators of the later "Terminator" sequels would have benefited from getting some "inspiration" from those classic "Outer Limits" episode!

[@nuyabuisness7526]

I honestly really liked Salvation because of the visual style and the attempt at world building. Unfortunately a lot of the script falls flat, but aside from that the visuals and cinematography are great, most of the robots look interesting and unique, and getting more than a keyhole look into the future only really spoken about in the rest of the movies was incredibly fertile ground for expanding the cannon without harming the rest of the franchise.

[@realnizefilms]

T3 was okay and had a good ending with all the bombs going off. Salvation was pretty dreadful. Genisys I enjoyed immensely because it was quite funny (rare for a Hollywood film) and the effects were way above anything from the series so far. But I agree it was also poorly conceived as an idea in the first place. I have to say that I LOVED dark fate and thought the film to be a crazy, weird, funny and quite touching finale to the series. Until T7 of course...

[@LeonWick526]

I'm fine with the franchise continuing after T2. It's just that they should've wrapped up the series with Terminator: Salvation because it would've been the perfect stopping point if it ended the war between humans and the machines. Sadly, it didn't and we got two more awful terminator sequels.

[@xanderfoley6641]

I was at least entertained by 3 and 4. 2 is great 1 is a bit overrated. I hate the rest

[@jr2904]

Agree, but I think 1 is underrated compared to its sequel. 3 had the balls to have a dark ending at least

[@nooch86]

Instead of making T3 into a serious, dark and suspensful movie with horror themes and a score that gives you a genuine feeling of dread but then soring emotional highs (almost making you cry over a robot), it instead was a steaming pile of shit that in no way captured the tone of the first two and was basically a parody movie. It had zero heart and emotion. It was an insult to the fans of the first two, because it decided to not take the story that we loved seriously and handle it with respect.

[@shr1mpsush1]

Say what you will about the franchise, but I think we can all agree that Terminator: Genisys is the worst one

[@jr2904]

For me it's dark fate, the first 5 minutes made me hate everything after

[@Benratbag1997]

The Terminator should never have been a franchise at all and should’ve been left alone as a 2-Part Film. ( _The Terminator_ & _Terminator 2: Judgement Day_ ) James Cameron said himself openly that the story was done with T2 and he’s completely disinterested in any more Terminator films being made.

[@donovandelaney3171]

There are actually seven Terminator movies. Terminator fans have forgotten about Terminator 2:3D: Battle Across Time.

[@ode4real]

The edit is so satisfying to look at. Titlecards blending into the movies production design.

[@hrdorn19]

Man, I’m just glad I came across this channel. Great content!

[@Educated2Extinction]

There's a serious flaw with the free will argument. One person not being able to change the fate of the world does not mean free will is nonexistent. It's just a demonstration of inertia.

[@Joseph-oo7pp]

I've always wondered if a reboot to the franchise could work. Not a soft reboot like Genisys, but a full reboot with an all-new story focused on a similar idea. Maybe even returning to the horror themes the franchise started with. But we'll probably never get another good one so who cares.

[@aakashsancheti9614]

The Terminator(1984):⬆️⬆️⬆️ T2 Judgment Day:⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️ T3 Rise of the Machines:⬆️⬆️⬇️⬇️ Terminator Salvation:⬆️⬇️⬇️⬇️ Terminator Genisys:⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️ Terminator Dark Fate:⬆️⬆️⬇️⬇️

[@MrUrlanjedozvoljeno]

T3 is still a good movie, with the real ending for this franchise. Everything that came after T3 is a mess and don't deserve any of our attention. :)

[@AWW8472]

If they make another Terminator, they need to go real high concept. I see each movie (and the TV series) as branches of a timeline. My new Terminator would reveal Skynet inadvertently created John Connor. In the original timeline, there is no John Connor to lead humanity against the machines. He is a myth, a trap set by the resistance to give Skynet someone to obsess over. Skynet-"Who sent you? Where do I find him?" Soldier-"His name is John Connor, and you'll never find him!"

[@AWW8472]

@@InfinitePublics If you can find it, read T2: Infiltrator, a direct sequel novel to T2: Judgement Day. In the story, Skynet has a conversation with the near-human Infiltrator. Skynet tells the Infiltrator it remembers coming online on two separate successive occasions. It is able to access memories from separate timelines. My story explores this as well as answering the question of why Skynet doesn't just nuke the entire planet instead of just the world powers in the Northern hemisphere. And why it would use time travel to solve the problem of John Connor. (Hint: it wasn't Skynet's idea.)

[@JoshuaG]

"Terminator Dark Fate" was supposed to be a recipe for success , you've got James Cameron back (check) , Director Tim Miller of the first deadpool (check). It was the tipping point in the franchise , but NOPE! , straight away in the opening scene they shot and killed John Connor , which HURTS MORE than the other preceeding movies did💔 its like a piece of your soul was just ripped out of you as a terminator fan.

[@EnterpriseKnight]

1:05 yeah he also got that dream from an Harlan Ellison Novel called "Soldier".

[@Bonko78]

Not even time travel can disprove that fate is real, unfortunately. Even if we go back and change the future, it's still possible that we were always destined to do that.

[@johnchedsey1306]

The TV show was actually really good. I think there was a lot more thought and care put into it than the post T2 movies. Though it was cancelled too soon, I suspect that it was going to jump the shark had it survived into a third season.

[@LAG09]

Ummm... Terminator 2 also had a marketing campaign that revealed the big twist of the "anrnie-nator" being a protector and not a killer. If you watch the movie a little closely you can see that this was meant to be a twist revealed during the first confrontation between the two terminators. Before which the liquid metal one wasn't even revealed to have been one, but played off as a Kyle Reese style soldier from the future.

[@disdainjames]

Obviously, I would have preferred they stop at 2. However, I always wished that terminator 3 was a darker movie. If they were gonna go all in on “skynet is inevitable”, they should have made the film about the hopelessness of the resistance, not just an action movie. If they returned to the formula of a human protector vs a machine, they could have made it much more interesting. The action and violence in 3 had no weight. It felt like watching a superhero movie.

[@ozymandiasthemisanthrope6919]

Terminator Salvation should've been what T3 was, and if a 4th was needed, it would wrap up the closure of the future war. That's what I always wanted from this franchise not for it to aimlessly milk itself past reverence or relevance.

[@bigbybrimble7799]

Terminator 1 was a product of its time. Cold War fatalism and techno-phobic anxieties mixed with the ascendant slasher film genre was a winning formula for something that was relevant. T2 was a subversion of that first films ideas, with America intoxicated on the fall of the USSR, an embrace of technology, and blockbuster Action films really in their prime during that time. The Matrix in 1999 basically took over for the franchise for the Internet era, and Terminator lost any shot at relevance it once had. You could make a decent Terminator film if you made it about our current anxieties about tech and automation, but that'd stepping away from all the signifiers the franchise has desperately held onto. It would mean dispensing with nostalgia, which ain't happening.

[@y2j1980x]

I feel so sorry for the teens of both now and in the future who, instead of getting lots of great new films (there are a few like Avatar) most of what they’ll remember their youth as contains (when they get much older) in terms of cinematic memories will be remakes and sequels and prequels. I was a child of the 80s and teen in the 90s and I thank god for that because I saw original, brand new stuff like Jurassic Park, The Abyss, Hellraiser and so forth - films I saw and had NO idea what to expect beyond the tv trailer - original content with a plot that could go anywhere. Also things like KZbin ruin anything new these days (eg John Wick, Hunger Games etc) because you can see most of the film from reviews and scenes you hear about. I feel so sorry for young viewers and movie makers today because it’s impossible to really have the great sense of not knowing what to expect from a film anymore. I remember when Blair Witch Project came out in the mid 90s and there was a time when everyone thought it was a documentary snuff film. Today? No way that works. The internet has removed any sense of mystery and created a perpetually cynical fan base especially in the young adult demographic; not their fault, they’re just exposed to too much reality now that all the fun and mystery I was blessed with is gone.

[@Ironheart73]

1. Nobody wanted to see an old Arnold Schwarzenegger play the T800 again. The terminator went from a badass killing machine who dissects out his own eye with a scalpel, to a grandpa named Carl doing drapes. Seriously? 2. Nobody wanted to see a spinoff focusing on the war in the future. That is the point. We invested in the heroes of the present because we do not want the dystopian future to happen. The enigma of what the future was like added to the suspense. 3. Nobody wanted to see beloved heroes like John Connor be replaced with a female lead just to pointlessly feminize the the franchize 4. The story was already closed in T2!

[@thetrickster240]

I've said for years that Cameron meant for the series to end at the 2nd movie all because story-wise, it really doesn't make sense. and the on going add-ons make it worse than ever, diluting an already finished product. Edit: That being said, if they really wanted to make money then they only needed to remake the first two, or make a cinematic universe out of it with converging timelines. Now that would be twice as interesting as the add-ons of today

[@TheHEROFamily]

I've enjoyed every Terminator movie except for the 3rd part.

[@vaibhavanand266]

As it is best said “You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain”. They did just that, they could have died a hero bout they lived. So, they are the villains now.

[@joseph7858]

thank you for your analysis! ☺️