New Nighthaunt Battletome Review - Warhammer Weekly 05182022

Join us for another week of news, rumors and all things Warhammering! This week, we are breaking down the new Nighthaunt Battletome - are the Spoopy Ghosts finally getting their due, or does the greiving continue? Tune in and find out!
#warhammer #ageofsigmar #nighthaunt
0:00 News
14:00 Hobby Time
19:00 Nighthaunt Review
26:45 Allegiance Abilities
1:09:45 Processions
1:23:30 GS & BT
1:27:30 Heroes
2:38:30 Units
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[@tomrobertson5820]

I love listening to these long episodes while painting. Also adding points values to the Warscrolls is a great addition. Thank you Vince.

[@VinceVenturella]

You're very welcome!

[@kevinhulvey7018]

These only come up when I fall asleep. I swear I fall asleep watching something else, then I wake up and see my computer has been playing a warhammer podcast for 2 and. a half hours. I don't play warhammer and I've never consciously clicked on a warhammer video. Guess you guys are good sleeping material

[@VinceVenturella]

Yeah, that totally checks out. :)

[@majikmindstorm]

As a painter, I’ve been collecting this army for a few years strictly for rule of cool. I’ve got a few thousand points but never played them. Some of the most gorgeous models in the hobby, but never felt very strong. These updates have me excited to finally field my spooky bois, and just in time since they’re (mostly) all painted now :)

[@VinceVenturella]

Awesome!

[@manga3040]

I see what Tom means about this being an extremely frustrating army for new and Timmy players to play against because it reaches far into all types of debuffs. Funny thing is, I think that plays into who they are as an army. Even some of the most disciplined and hardened armies in the AOS world would likely find it maddening to fight a huge force of screeching, flying, ethereal, vanishing, mostly psychotic ghosts.

[@Clintv42]

Drink every time Tom says, “Let’s be clear”

[@VinceVenturella]

Please don't, you'll die.

[@itzyaboishannon]

Thanks for the review, guys! Really appreciate when you guys do these.

[@VinceVenturella]

Our pleasure!

[@donaldkelly9833]

I don't play any army scale games but it's always great to watch these to digest how folks are synthesizing rules text into strategy!

[@VinceVenturella]

Thanks!

[@ssnakeshitful]

Love the review guys. The geeat thing to mention about Slitter is that you can position your Hero *after* the model is removed, meaning you can prevent the enemy unit to get back in coherency with their own pile in move. Or, if you close in on a unit that is already attacked on another flank by another smaller nighthaunt unit (which will happen) you will automatically break the unit if it is stringed out and you remove a model from the centre. I love the Artefact and I'm terrified of the thought of my local Nighthaunt player using it against me. 😉

[@VinceVenturella]

Good call!

[@Vinigor222]

Another great show with lots of info and great debate. I play against Nighthaunt a lot so this was a great insight into their strengths. They are certainly more formidable now!! 👻👻👻

[@VinceVenturella]

Happy to help!

[@merlyn921]

Came for the weekly dose of awesome Warhammer discussion, stayed for the Bane impression 😀

[@VinceVenturella]

Glad you enjoyed. :)

[@miniaturestash]

Great episode thanks!

[@inquisitorsz]

I think you guys are underselling the black coach. The laser beam melts support heroes. In some match ups (like SOB) it does struggle. But it's overall dmg output is actually surprisingly good. But I do however agree it's currently too expensive.

[@VinceVenturella]

Yeah, it just comes down really to points for me, but it could also really use Run and Charge for it's role.

[@inquisitorsz]

@@VinceVenturella yeah that would be nice. I've seen people use it quite effectively not even being in combat. Just jumping around charging up and nuking heroes. Charging is a bonus. Could potentially be easy to zone out though

[@marc-andredeslauriers7687]

I see the work in these V3 books so far and can’t wait for StD to come out :)

[@VinceVenturella]

You aren't kidding.

[@krlda6]

Tom is back for this 😊😊😊

[@TheJhfkgf]

Damn, making me consider getting the dual box with DoK now...... Even though I haven't even started painting my Maggotkin

[@VinceVenturella]

Isn't that always the challenge.

[@morzorkatvfm]

Glaivewraiths look to be like an Aetherwings/Fellbats etc equivalent. Fast pinning units, likely used to absorb Unleash Hells. I can see a use for a single unit.

[@Eversca]

They're just badly designed. They do no damage for their points, and their one ability pairs terribly with what we actually need from it. Even for how bad they are, they might still be useful if they could be used as reliable deepstrikes chargers, but their ability is so horribly worded that you don't even get the bonus if you deepstrike them. In fact, if you decide to put them in the underworlds at the start of the game, they NEVER get their bonus, for the whole game.

[@VinceVenturella]

I would like them in that role, but they would need ot be cheaper.

[@teagancombest6049]

Chainghasts are better at that, because they're cheaper. Stalkers get nothing to make them good at that except that they fulfill no other role so they get default shunted into "chaff". The only thing they're good at is making a charge at one specific unit, and then immediately dying.

[@cmleibenguth]

High Lady Olynder stonks, esp. in her own host. If I were to play against a Nighthaunt person using these new rules, she would be priority number one to take out. Even ahead of the -1 damage guy. She's finally, in her own way, as powerful as the other Mortarchs. Need to keep her near some disposable bodies.

[@MKDietz]

Why in her own host? She does nothing more in that one compared to the others

[@VinceVenturella]

I rate her as well, I think she's solid. Could be a little (little) cheaper, but good.

[@hobbithubby5076]

The 120 points hike she got wasn’t worth her warscroll changes.

[@g00gly3y3s]

The waiting has paid off. I've had 12 spirit hosts and 10 hexwraiths built for years, trudging through (fun!) losses because I bought on a Rule of Cool budget. Now they're good and I'm going enjoy ever second of it.

[@g00gly3y3s]

Shoutout to Myrmourn Banshees for being insanely cool models that finally have reliable damage.

[@VinceVenturella]

Playing the long game. :)

[@henrymadden7447]

Very good commentary. I've watched a couple videos on this battletome and the rules were never summarized well in a big-picture sense. This video went over meta and micro details very much appreciated.

[@VinceVenturella]

Thank you, that is what we are going for, we want to really provide some deeper insights if possible.

[@BjornFriborg]

"Turns out the difference between 6" and 12" is a big deal" - Vince Perfect sign off line!

[@VinceVenturella]

There you go. :)

[@odeegrotsniffer4166]

Bummer about the scriptor mortis. I love the model, made me want to get into the faction. I'm still going to play it as I only play for fun and only play with models I think look cool.

[@VinceVenturella]

Totally fair, I mean, there is always room for a pet unit. :)

[@koujow]

I second the "Quicksilver Dead' is a reference to 'The Quick and the Dead'. Now we need ghost cowboy

[@VinceVenturella]

There we go.

[@scottbaker2451]

I'm running the Khorne dragon in a meme list at the Birmingham GT next weekend. Skallok's a Godbeast and has no ward of any kind lol. Wish the big gal had Nagash's 4+ MW ward.

[@VinceVenturella]

Hilarious.

[@TundraGheist]

Nice job Tom!

[@VinceVenturella]

Indeed

[@jordivermeulen2519]

The Spirit Hosts ability lets you allocate the wounds to any Spirit Hosts unit on the battlefield, you just need to have at least one unit within 3" to trigger the ability...

[@VinceVenturella]

Yes, but that's clearly an error, that will be FAQd

[@Stardog081]

@@VinceVenturella interesting..... is it to good or does it brake a rule completely?

[@IzzysIssues]

My buddy's Cairn Wraith was stuck in combat with a single one of my Liberators for two full rounds. Neither of us could roll to wound whatsoever

[@Phalanx167]

Overall, I'm pretty enthused with this book. Like with the current edition of 40k, GW has done an better job with intra-codex balance (inter-codex is another matter). There are still some very evident misses (Glaive Wraiths and Crossboos), but generally they have managed to given most entries a role worth consideration.That said, there are still some sticking points that frustrate me about the current book. 1. Most of the subfactions feel lazy and are uninspiring. They kind of just build your list for you in many ways be making you lean hard into a certain unit. I would have much rather seen a much broader theme applied, like giving you a bonus for running all the Banshee type units, namely Harridans, Myrmourns, and Tomb Banshees (maybe throw in lady O for good measure). With them you could maybe get some thematic benefit according to their theme. Basically I would have liked to see something akin to the old Battalion Warscrolls and the Broken Realms subfactions. A host of benefits built around a medley of units that share a theme. 2. The Hero Problem. Namely I am talking about all the heroes GW throws at us year after year for our factions, competing over 6 slots and often competing for roles in ranges where non-hero units might be even more limited. Already Nighthaunt have so many, and while I appreciate that they did a somewhat decent job at giving all of them a role this time, it would have been nice to see them tone back the hero range a bit or maybe make more clear power pairs so they have even more distinct roles. For example, I would have considered maybe cutting the hero keyword from Cairn Wraiths and Banshees and make them more like what they use to be: One model units with good abilities similar to Salamanders or Khorgoraths, and maybe help them out by letting you take up to 2 extra without costing reinforcements. Already in my past and current NH lists I am maxing out heroes and this would help alleviate some of the competition over the slots. Also, it's I still find Assassin/Hero-Slayer characters a tad frustrating. Sure they are definitely killier now, I fully appreciate that, but they are still pretty easy to punk out before they go and are often not damaging enough to be your first pick in a combat over a more numerous hammer unit. What makes it particularly frustrating is GW already has answers in their toolbox for this, the best being the ability for chaining activations, such as how the Vampire Lord got in the SBG White Dwarf update, or just letting them strike first (which a NH hero can essentially get if you roll a good enough charge and make your enemy fight last). I personally would like to see both of these solutions applied more often by GW in the case of more combat dedicated heroes or heroes that give buffs by slaying models (like Crypt Ghast Courtiers). Definitely looking forward to playing the book soon though, once I get a few more games in with the Vampires so I can shelve them for a while.

[@VinceVenturella]

That all makes complete sense, I especially agree on the subfactions as I said in the video. :)

[@MrNyerk]

Choosing Emerald Host for your subfaction in a 1K pts game (or a Path to Glory) is the best way to disgust your opponent for months. And the best way to stay alone at home when your friends meet for a casual AoS evening.

[@tylervaughan8736]

How do you get a +1 to hit and wound aura? Am i missing something?

[@VinceVenturella]

We talked about it in the show, but from the other units (such as the Chainghasts)

[@tylervaughan8736]

@@VinceVenturella Must of missed it! Cheers Vince!

[@SuperHughseff12]

What are your thoughts on the mourngul?

[@VinceVenturella]

Just not worth it sadly.

[@renatofornaroli]

A bit of an old video, sorry to necro this, but just wanted to add that Cairn Wraith and Tomb Banshees are from August 2011, while the Hexwraiths are from January 2012 according to my data. On another note, you did not mention the Mourngul as it's a FW model, but was wondering if you or Tom had an opinion. It is interesting because it now gets a 6+ ward, retreat and charge and still has the old frightful touch that does mortal wounds (you should be able to choose one of the two right?). It is expensive, but a -1 to hit bubble combined with -1 to wound from the Pendant or the Lord-Executioner is nice, 10 wounds with 4+ save, 6+ ward upgradable and self-healing is also not that squishy, and at full health it attacks like a Knight of Shrouds but with MWs...

[@VinceVenturella]

I’m not sure it’s still valid in the army, but I just think it’s over costed.

[@renatofornaroli]

@@VinceVenturella on that agreed! Thanks

[@tomcatminis]

Hey Vince, you mention Nighthaunt make terrible allies to bring into an army, could you do a show on the best armies to ally into each grand alliance with top pick units? I'm curious.. Love the show too :)

[@hobbithubby5076]

Order: Gotrek Death: Manfred Chaos: Be’lakor Destruction: Mega-Gargant (maybe Kragnos now?)

[@VinceVenturella]

I think that list nails it yes. Show done. ;)

[@rabidwhale]

@@hobbithubby5076 Why Mannfred? I understand the others

[@hobbithubby5076]

@@rabidwhale his warscroll ability and damage profile is fantastic. He doesn’t require allegiance abilities to do what he does. Death is kind of in a weird spot compared to the other grand alliances. The factions pretty much operate best when everything is kept to one battletome.

[@rabidwhale]

@@hobbithubby5076 Make sense, he loses a lot by not being in a soulblight army so I was just wondering.

[@walterdimmick653]

Excellent summary and analysis. I have a very different take on the power and point value of the Purple Sun. It is near perfectly pointed and powered up for this season. The season is meant to be about the "little guys" as clearly articulated by the developers. One way to emphasize the little guys is to deemphasize the "god guys". Because the god level model rules are so numerous and complex, this would be difficult to accomplish by tweaking their individual rules. I think the current Purple Sun was a smart way to do this because it is a very simple mechanism that is more or less uniformly applied. Now it may be that a person does not like the flavor of the current season. But in my view, it was a very good design idea and well executed. Comparing the Purple Sun to other endless spells is just not relevant in this instance. The purple sun "season patch" enables players to use their expensive and favored god models with their rules intact and interacting as normal, it means that you have to play them differently. This is really similar in concept to what you have to do with the galley vets, as you have described in detail in this episode. Yes, "endless spells" are arguably comparable in a logical framework, but when it comes to changes made for a season, one has to acknowledge overall game balance for the whole edition is NOT a thing in some instances, otherwise you could not really have meaningful or interesting seasonal flavors. Also in regard to beasts of nurgle, lol, "told you so" when book dropped.😉

[@VinceVenturella]

I understand that POV, but that is a lot of collateral damage.

[@warpstoneenjoyer8293]

The bodyguard rules need, NEED, to be standardized and tightened up. There is a big obnoxious "Or" that turns what should be an airtight rule (whether that hero can still use a ward if Drawn to War fails) into something completely ambiguous. The fact that this seems to be the standard wording for bodyguard rules going forward only makes it more frustrating.

[@jordivermeulen2519]

"Unless stated otherwise, the ward roll is made before the wound is allocated to the model in question." So if I read this correctly, you can roll for bodyguard *after* you make a ward save. This is stupid and needs an FAQ. It's extra stupid because in a relatively recent Core Rules FAQ they tried to clarify that bodyguards don't get a ward for wounds allocated to them, but then they immediately proceeded to write rules with different wording.

[@VinceVenturella]

The frustrating part around this is that many have it tight, but I think this one is clear, it says instead of making a ward roll.

[@HurtPower]

Only sad things are the black coach, hexwraiths losing the pass over mortals, it would have been so good with the retreat and charge 2" on them would been nice too

[@VinceVenturella]

I am okay, that new ability on HW is tight.

[@kuhvacako]

Vince! Drawn to War is badly worded in a new way, "Before you allocate a wound or mortal wound to a friendly NIGHTHAUNT HERO, or instead of making a ward roll for a wound or mortal wound that would be allocated to that HERO, if any friendly units with this ability are within 3" of that HERO, you can roll a dice. On a 3+ that wound or mortal wound is allocated to a friendly unit with this ability instead of that HERO and cannot be negated." the way it is phrased means after you roll that 3+ you can allocate that wound to ANY spirit host unit in your army, since it says "is allocated to A friendly unit with that ability" instead of "is allocated to that friendly unit". In that case, you'd be able to leave a unit of spirit hosts near a hero, have another one get frisky somewhere else, and allocate wounds destined to the hero to the distant spirit hosts instead of the ones near the hero. I don’t think I’m missing some kind of core rule? This seems weird but it seems to work as per RAW

[@VinceVenturella]

I am aware, I just don't think it matters because it will be FAQd. :)

[@drzephy]

I'm so happy that all the new books so far are really really good. It does make me nervous that one of them is gonna be bad tho :P

[@VinceVenturella]

Not if we can help it! ;)

[@mwyler3390]

This army must be hilarious for Tom, there was a great many "the funny thing is..."

[@VinceVenturella]

Indeed.

[@shadeling6717]

Is there a vid on the Johnny Timmy type of games in relation to AOS? I did a google search and got some MTG descriptions, but was wondering if there was some clarification. I'll also probably re-watch this weekend when I'm building/painting. Little bummed Harridans are almost the red headed step child of the battleline with a certain procession. Lady O and Harridans is what got me into Nighthaunts which got me into AOS. Needless to say I will be trying the quicksilver dead force with plenty of Harridans. The scriptor and Coach being bad is both a relief and sadness. I wanted to try to use the models, but i never bought them and it seems I can now save money, and not bother. Spirit hosts being a pain to build oh i know that pain i own 12. Spirit hosts and reapers were my preferred battleline in the old book. While i have I think 30-40 chainrasps i never really liked them. Things to consider for this book so far. Should I finally buy their endless spells for just the 1? To buy more Harridans when I have 20. I am missing a few units or doubles of certain leaders, but would I constantly run more than 1?

[@VinceVenturella]

There sure is such a video, I made it - kzbin.info/www/bejne/n5bQf3V7bpynopY and here - kzbin.info/www/bejne/p2SWd4ahrteDbac

[@voxkine9385]

All I know is that these last few books have made me excited for the new Gitz book… that is absolutely, 100% coming out next… 😭

[@VinceVenturella]

I am excited for them as well - I wouldn't bet on that last part. ;)

[@Stardog081]

Off topic question kind of..... Are all those trophies in Tom's background Warhammer related trophies?????

[@VinceVenturella]

Yep, various awards for warhammer (both gaming and painting).

[@eduardorodriguezcorrea7386]

What is jhonny? Timmy? NPE? missing these terms :(

[@VinceVenturella]

Psychographic Profiles (Johnny, Timmy, Spike) - we have previous shows on that explaining it all. Also, NPE is Negative Play Experience, same thing there.

[@jordivermeulen2519]

I don't understand Tom's point about the Krulghast somehow projecting a 24" bubble of -1 damage. It's just that if he's within 12" of a terrified unit, everything wholly within 12" of him takes -1 damage if attacked. That's 12", not 24".

[@danielo9141]

Its 24" diameter if he's in the middle?

[@VinceVenturella]

COrrect, a 12" radius is a 24" diameter. (more technically because of his base)

[@hobbithubby5076]

1:26:45 I really wish TOs would just do that if GW doesn’t. The army specific battle tactics & grand strategies are pretty much the biggest thing keeping AOS away from perfection.

[@VinceVenturella]

Agreed.

[@jakessofa8187]

Here I am, listening to the Nighthaunt coverage..... finishing my Black Coach le sigh

[@VinceVenturella]

It's not worthless, just not as good as we would hope. :)

[@jakessofa8187]

@@VinceVenturella Agreed :) I think what grinds my gears is the points cost, and that when you expend the Evocation of Death to cause mortals, you have to then roll and on a 2+ it occurs. At that points cost, especially after having to have removed or caused models to flee to gain the ability, it should just be automatic. Because, knowing my rolls, when I really need it that 1 is going to rear its ugly head.

[@phoulmouth]

I don't understand the scriptor mortis hate. I have used him, in one game he did 15 mortals to a GUO(round 2 and 3) and 7 mortals to a LoA(round 5). I mean, sure, he is swingy and very RNG based, but the damage potential and scare factor is amazing. My opponents are constantly trying to focus this guy leaving the rest of my heroes open to wreak havoc. Nagash: If they were to drop his points to the high 600 low 700 range at a minimum hand of dust needs to go. Tomb Banshee: Correct me if I am wrong, but if your opponent ONLY has 1 command point they can still issue their command to that unit that is effected by the banshee right? The wording on the banshee adds the +1 cost AFTER the command is issued, so if you still had more command points then you'd lose one. It doesn't actually make the already issued command fail if you can't pay the additional one. Craventhrone guard: These guys would make sense at 80 points as written, or it 24 inch range as priced. At 80 points you could keep a unit of 5 or 10 floating behind your melee line popping off a few wounds a turn. At 24 inch range they could hold an objective while popping off a few wounds a turn. As they are written I am in agreement, complete trash. Which sucks because the models are really cool. I really want to paint some, but I won't buy models I won't actually use in an army. Myrmourn Banshee: For me these are an auto grab. Even if I am up against someone not using caster their attack profile is worth their points cost right? @tom, why take a reinforced unit? At 8 models you have to have that stupid ranking rule effecting them making them spread out about as much as 4 would be able to right? Night haunt is never going to be a one drop list, take 2 units, that's 2 24 inch bubbles, way better than a 8 man unit. Spirit host: Assembly tip! Seriously, go check out reaper miniatures, do a search for grave stones. They sell blisters of like a dozen plastic grave stones that look amazing. Now glue one to the center of the spirit host base. Assemble each "wisp" of the spirit host, drill holes in the grave stone the size of the ends of each wisps tales, and glue them into the grave stone. ZERO frustration, and it's a cool little effect. I used those reaper gravestone on a lot of the models with really fiddly attachment points I was worried about breaking. Olyander's maid servents are coming out of grave stones instead of being glued to her, and the grave stone is also supporting olyanders tiny little attachment point. Some with my lord executioner. Harridans: As a Maggotkin main these guys scare the shit out of me. If my opponent is using the subfaction where these ignore my ward saves I'm going to be tabled in 2 tursn, 3 tops. Blightkings at a 4+ save vs 40 3/3 attacks? Sure, I get a 4+(3+) save but still thats a unit gone in 2 turns. I have already had a run in with a 10 pack of grundstick thunderers blasting my 20 plague bearers off the field thanks to the new admiral ability to ignore ward saves, and thats a once per game ability. These guys are terrifying and I think you all need to think on them a bit more. I don't have any of these yet, but I plan to get some.

[@VinceVenturella]

Many thoughts here for sure. I am not sure I read the Tomb Banshee that way, appeal to the core rules says you pay the point first, then issue, so you assumingly there is a failure clause there, but they clearly didn't word it perfectly. Yes, I agree, the Harridans are deeply terrifying to nurgle. :) Good thoughts all around.

[@phoulmouth]

@@VinceVenturella You're absolutely right on the tomb banshee, I read that completely wrong somehow. HAHA

[@beardhammerwargaming]

Myrmourn Banshees and Dreadblades, teleport them near spellcasters in the first round

[@VinceVenturella]

Sure, they're scary.

[@jordivermeulen2519]

The obvious target for Harridans that ignore wards is Gotrek!

[@VinceVenturella]

Sure, in that match up it's pretty great.

[@holyhandgrenade3]

On the subject of Kurdoss v. Lady O. Vince, you're right in that Lady O is a grab bag of abilities, which is great for when you don't know what's coming. The problem though, is her price point begs the question: Why not just bring something else to meet that need for less (e.g spirit hosts are essentially better ward saves for your heroes, and just get a better wizard or regen ability off another hero). Meanwhile, Kurdoss is cheap enough that I can then look at other options and still be like "I also have Kurdoss to deal with that issue) so in a way, both approaches are grab bags. But Lady O is package deal that you may not need and a bit pricey, whereas Kurdoss is one element in the hero package deal you can make yourself. If Lady O was a bit cheaper, I'd be more likely to bring her along since I think you were correct i saying she's a self-healing, resilient unit that needs to be focused or will just cause you headache. That same issue can be replicated by other units for cheaper in my opinion.

[@VinceVenturella]

All fair.

[@hobbithubby5076]

GW straight up turned NH into a blue defense deck… I couldn’t be happier!

[@VinceVenturella]

Indeed.

[@hobbithubby5076]

Come on Vince… join us over here at the ghostly boi table. You can make Rat Ghosts on Spooky ponies!

[@VinceVenturella]

Pass. ;)

[@garystephen8718]

Like for Rats. Will be getting Skaven side of new box, to start off a Skaven army.

[@VinceVenturella]

Now that's what I like to hear.

[@regshowfan1600]

GUYS THIS JUST IN, THE OLD PROCESSIONS ARE STILL AVAILABLE

[@VinceVenturella]

The new book being published will invalidate those old options. It's part of the general directions on using the most recent sources.

[@regshowfan1600]

@@VinceVenturella darn

[@michaelwright3886]

If I ever have a choice between hitting a button or not, in any situation, you bet your ass I'm pressing that button

[@VinceVenturella]

Press the buttons!

[@christophertaylor3770]

usually like for dogs, but liking for my lovely ghosty boys today

[@VinceVenturella]

Totally fair.

[@christianschmidt1784]

You could argue that stormcast are ghosts that made it to 'the good side' while nighthaunts got less lucky...

[@VinceVenturella]

I suppose so, though keeping a body is a nice upside. :)

[@christianschmidt1784]

@@VinceVenturella 😆 I wonder though. If stormcast get reforged over and over and over, they say they loose their human side. Does that mean they eventually turn inhuman aka nighthaunts?

[@manga3040]

Not luck just Nagash.

[@manga3040]

@@christianschmidt1784 Nighhaunt are not Stormcasts that reforged too much.

[@robertpastoris791]

Didn't they say the pen is mightier than the sword?

[@VinceVenturella]

They lied.

[@spartanpiplup6229]

I struggled getting into aos, they killed my boy vlad and I'm still disappointed he's not a mortarch, but the release of nighthaunt pulled me into the hobby kicking and screaming, then the thorns of the briar queen pulled me into warhammer underworlds kicking and screaming. Now I'm just waiting for a warcry warband from nighthaunt to pull me into that kicking and screaming.

[@VinceVenturella]

We can't get some ghosty Warcry soon enough!

[@Malisteen]

If only war cry were like kill team, designed to be a smaller scale, faster playing entry point to the main game, rather than its own weird separate chaos only thing with support for main game factions as an afterthought. It would also help if there were any sort of coherent messaging or labeling on what rules are current, or any commitment from gw on making those rules consistently available. War cry is a decent little game but good luck to anyone trying to buy into it, let alone trying to convince others to buy in with you.

[@regshowfan1600]

1:28:28 A model this size can never be given a 4+ ward it would make him unkillable A 5+ ward is reasonable

[@VinceVenturella]

Oh I agree completely, I was going to make the point, but it wasn't worth going too deep.

[@regshowfan1600]

@@VinceVenturella yes of course, i do think everyone deserves a chance to play with their toys, especially the big shiny ones. A 5+ ward on Nagash, as he is, would provide a great smoothing effect to spike damage from ranged power projection. Let’s be honest about the elephant in the room. Shooting. People are worried about shooting units lifting their best units. I think a 5+ ward would deter tha

[@JoakimDe]

”Nighthaunt specialists arent on AoS worlds…” Nighthaunt taking 2nd at worlds…😉

[@VinceVenturella]

I know right!

[@odeegrotsniffer4166]

Tom got pretty... zealous in this one.

[@VinceVenturella]

He loves him some ghosts.

[@brandondollar]

If you really want to make him a tough mouseman, put him on a Snowmeow.

[@VinceVenturella]

There you go.

[@AniccaVataSankhara]

cognitive dissonance question - how are individuals with physical attacks damaging ghosts in the Age of Sigmar world? E.g. is a fyreslayer's axe swinging through air when it lays into a nighthaunt?

[@VinceVenturella]

This I can easily answer because they have provided a lore answer. Basically, the ability to damage incorporeal things in the mortal realms (which are all infused by magic) is not about the weapons being magical, but about confidence and belief that you can. It's why the Sons of Behemat were so dangerous to NIghthuant until Olyander beat them once and had them believe they couldn't win for some time. So basically, if you believe you can damage them, the belief has power.

[@AniccaVataSankhara]

@@VinceVenturella thank you, Vince. that's a fun lore reason. I have the same reasoning about my mini painting. I believe I can paint and often that puts paint onto the mini

[@hobbithubby5076]

49:05 I cried too… I had hoped it was just left out of the leak, but I’m so sad for the loss of my favorite procession.

[@VinceVenturella]

Indeed.

[@kickedinbiccytin2233]

1:17:30

[@VinceVenturella]

?

[@demondude15]

oh no, they made it an army i want to play...

[@VinceVenturella]

Always dangerous.

[@warpstoneenjoyer8293]

Horde thinner? More like horde medium

[@VinceVenturella]

I love this.

[@garystephen8718]

It's not just about just being scared of the ghosts, it's about the magical aura of fear they project. At least, that's how I understand it.

[@ZacharyEvans]

And what they represent: The eternal torment at the hands of Nagash.

[@danielo9141]

Is it not just jumpscares on the charge?

[@VinceVenturella]

I guess, but even that seems shaky to me. :)

[@garystephen8718]

@@VinceVenturella True but if you take away the spooky side of them, then it's just a bunch of poor dead folks floating around saying Boo. And nobody wants that. Lol

[@11yoyomama]

Am I the only person in the universe who doesn’t know what “MSU” means in this context

[@VinceVenturella]

Multiple Small Unit, basically running lots of small, min size units to flood the board

[@11yoyomama]

@@VinceVenturella thanks that’s helpful Vince

[@dannythompson9642]

👍👍

[@VinceVenturella]

:)

[@phoulmouth]

300 model moves per turn is a complaint only if you are too stupid to make movement bases.

[@VinceVenturella]

Well, I think his point was sometimes, you are also needing to move quite carefully, so you would want to be moving them individually, but yes, it's a minor and or mitigatable issue.

[@phoulmouth]

@@VinceVenturella 100% agreed on the careful moves, but more often than not with a horde army like nighthaunts you're only doing that with 1 or 2 units early game, and maybe more later game after they have all been chewed up meaning significantly less moves. Plus, lets not fool ourselves, with the herohammer possibilities in this new book 300 model moves in a turn is going to be in the minority of games as we all know AoS players like using few how power models.

[@Phalanx167]

So gotta come out of the peanut gallery here and disagree with a random side take of yours for an inordinate amount of time here now. When it comes to your claim that "spooky ghosts" scaring people is just not believable in a setting where "mountains will eat you," it sounds reasonable on the surface, but I think it is a superficial take. When we take into account that AoS is a setting where souls are not only real and tangible, but are a commodity, life and death take on a different context. This is a world where the norm is when you die your soul either returns to your patron deity, or it moves on to one of the underworlds you may believe in that has formed due to that belief in Shyish. It is also where a world, where there are two major factions that subvert this; namely when it comes to Chaos and Death, your soul returning to your god or entering your underworld is the exception. If you die to a nighthaunt or to a daemon your soul is more likely to become the fodder or plaything of these creatures and their gods; tormented and twisted until it is eventually used up and your true essence is no more. Just take a moment to think of how seriously people in the real world, with no tangible evidence of a heaven or a hell, or gods, or daemons, but who believe in such things, take the idea of the afterlife and their eternal souls. It reaches the point where people will willingly expose themselves to grisly death as martyrs to achieve paradise and escape damnation. So in light of a world where these concepts touch daily life to a fair greater degree, getting gnoshed on by a mountain or stepped on by a giant for about a second of agony seems like nothing compared to the eternity of torment even a lowly Bloodletter or Chainrasp has to offer. Yes, a god-beast showing up, looming larger than life and then devouring you or stepping on you unawares is worthy of some pantaloon-soiling seconds of terror before it abruplty ends, but does not compare to the dread or having the presence of something like the lowliest Nighthaunt or Daemon around for the sort of everlasting horror and agony they will bring you even after you are dead. So yea, totally get that the idea of things like Skeletons and to some extent zombies (though they still have the horror of wearing the face of your loved ones, eating you alive, and then you returning as one of them to perpetuate this on others) being so terrifying in a world of colossal, rampaging beasts, and armies of Hercules' is rather silly and loses the scope of the setting in favor of playing on real world tropes. That said, when it comes to Undead like Nighthaunt, Vampires, and Bonereapers it takes on an even greater level of dread despite the fact that they are less fantastical and out of the ordinary. It takes one the desperate fear of losing something for greater than your ephemeral mortal life; they mere presence is a threat to something that couldn't possibly be more precious to you: a threat to your very existence in the form of your soul. Anyways, all this pontificating aside, I just found it a surprisingly surface level take from you Vince, and felt compelled to lay out my own perspective. Anyway, I loved the episode, especially the allusion to NH being the Bane/hipster of making being crappy cool, and have more to say on the tome I will post separately.

[@VinceVenturella]

I have thought about this deeply, it's not a surface take, it's a statement on the rules and versimilitude of the game world as presented. The issue with your description, is those aren't the characters in this story. You are describing how the people of the Mortal Realms would react to such things, the common folk. These are not the warriors of our armies. My stormcast are immortal lightning demi-gods riding on the literal will of their god to the battlefield to die and return again. Sylvaneth are grown by their gods and put into the aspect of the season of war from tended soul pods. Let's not even touch on the fact that skeletons and zombies are similarly "afraid" of ghosts, as are demons, immortal incarnations of base evils, desires and sin. These are not things subject to fear. Our armies are not the common folk rising up (for the most part, if this rule just affected "Non-Stormcast Humans" or whatever, I would have much less of an issue. I have no doubt that to a normal person, the manifestation of the potential afterlife would be disturbing, but we do not pilot (and these rules do not effect) the common folk. In epic fantasy, fear of such base creatures is no longer part of the equation. Hercules, or Achilles are not afraid of skeletons and ghosts, they fight legendary monsters and creatures that the normal folk can barely comprehend. THis is my issue.

[@Phalanx167]

@@VinceVenturella Completely fair points. Surface level was an unfair description. We do get to be the pilot seat of more mundane/mortal forces like Gloomspite, Dwarves, Cities of Sigmar, Skaven, etc. But your point stands as those are generally the exception. Things like other Undead and senseless, built to purpose Seraphon, or battlefrenzied orks and chaos warriors would not care about the nature of these ghosts. I still think however a Stormcast or Sylvaneth however would surely not be panicked, but would have dread facing Nighhaunt since they are in position to know best the sort of damage these sorts of entities can do even if you aren't taken by them (and not even Sigmar's finest are not immune to being taken by the Nighthaunt as we have seen in various short stories). Would it be fair however if the sort of fear caused by Nighthaunt was a more basal/primal fear, that no matter how far pasty mortal a living being may be, it still cannot get past without being entirely beyond their former humanity/mortality anymore (i.e. soulless/inhuman)? Entirely irrational fear, like how people can have of the smallest, most benign snake or spider, but in this case supernaturally heightened?

[@Phalanx167]

@@VinceVenturella Also I do agree that it could use a keyword on what armies feel the fear, like say a more broadly applied mortal keyword (like cities, orks, gitz, skaven, dwarves, lumineth, etc.), and arguably say daemons. Yes, daemons are not human, but they are composed of human emotions (not simply sins) and from what I understand can experience fear.

[@Phalanx167]

@@VinceVenturella One more note (sorry for the spam); if it's worth any consideration: Just as you correctly point out that the sorts of people in the setting of AoS that we command are not your ordinary, common folk, and instead of a heroic twist, Nighthaunt aren't just your common, real world depiction ghosts. It isn't Marley rattling his chains at you and giving you ominous but vague warnings about the future, or even a poltergeist jump scaring you through a mirror before it pummels the crap out of you, or a spooky ghost-nun that tears out your soul. A full-scale Nighthaunt assault is basically that 2011 movie Ghost Storm. It's described as a tumultuous, insensible tornado of noise, color, and agony. A wave of spirits crashing on you LotR army of the damned style. It's their cumulative effect accompanied by supernatural fear that could be considered the breaking point for the heroic, super-chads of the Stormcast or Chaos. Sure, a dreaded, soul devouring wraith might to a lightning forged Hercules be what a goose is to an average person, but if you multiply those wraiths and geese by even 10, 20, 30, even more, well then that's something to worry about. Add to that how unconventional the attack is; the unnatural speed, that it comes from all angles, that it ignores many of the principles that even that all but the most unconventional and monstrous corporeal foes follow, then I think it can be seen as reasonable how divinely appointed Heroes of the setting could still fear in such circumstances. The fear comes from compounding factors about the nature of their and not just simply their "ah, it's a g-g-g-ghost!" factor.

[@MrTBass11]

I think it is fair to say that Timmy players are welcomed to play as Timmy as much as they want. It is an hobby after all, we are all here for fun. BUT, if you are a Timmy player, you should be self-aware enough that you don't start whining if a Johnny's army do Johnny things and control you and debuff you. You have the right to play as a Timmy and i have the right to play as a Johnny. You have straight-foward tactics with warscrolls that are potent enough as soon as you put them on the table, we have complex plans with other plans in them and mediocre warscrolls that become amazing thanks to our smart moves, positioning and usage of the tools we are given. TL/DR: NPE armies are usually just Johnny armies and it is an excuse for Timmys to not learn to play against this type of armies. Otherwise this game would become just "You bonk hard, i bonk harder, then you bonk hardest, then i bonk hardestest" and so on and so forth XD

[@cyriltournier5784]

I mostly agree with you. It's the same in every game (see people calling for the ban of blue in MTG or the great purge against NPE during Warmachine's mk3). But it must not obscure the fact that sometimes control strategies are just too good (just like summoning).

[@VinceVenturella]

That's all a fair point, but psychology is psychology. We aren't dealing with robots, we are dealing with humans. Humans have bias and humans dislike loss A LOT more than they like gain. There are mounds of research on this. So armies that take away your ability to do your thing (LRL being the classic example of this, but old blue magic was also like this). Even if it doesn't win, it's often reviled, because it hits at the heart of what humans, as a species, dislike.

[@MrTBass11]

@@VinceVenturella Thanks for the response. I see your point, i really do. But i also think that playing a wargame is only partially like playing chess. There is also chance (dice rolls) and diversification (black and white against a ton of different armies). To me, having a meta is more important than having the perfect balance, and being a book rat even in the hobby is more important than "double-turn-i-table-you". But to each their own, i just think that, to make an example, there is A LOT of complaining about LRL, that control you till round 5, but not a lot for SCE that table you round 2. Which is better, having the chance to outplay your opponent for 5 rounds or simply packing everything up after half an hour because you don't have miniatures on the table with a SCE doube turn? The answer for me is: it is fine in both cases, just stop bothering me because i am a johnny and i love elves.

[@niilofriden4465]

.

[@VinceVenturella]

:)