Noam Chomsky - Work

Source: • Noam Chomsky - The Rel...

[@moonrakerone]

It's like that joke about Friday. "Thank God it's Friday. Thank God 5 out of the 7 days of my life are over. Now I'm gonna spend 2 of those 7 days drunk so I don't have to think about the upcoming 5/7ths of my week."

[@yamanosu9463]

@smooth operator it's even crazier to think about weekends are basically a modern invention 😂 I can't even make it through most work weeks. How tf did humans even survive working 14 hours a day their whole life

[@CIARUNSITE]

Here I am, waiting for the bus. Eleven more years of school to go. Then college, then maybe graduate school, and then I work until I die. -Calvin

[@Theroadneverending]

If you spend two days drunk instead of two days trying to break free that’s your own problem and you deserve no pity.

[@cjlooklin1914]

You just described 2019-2022 for me. Finally taking small steps to have some semblance of am actual life

[@cjlooklin1914]

@@Theroadneverending I think you're just a narcissistic asshole, man. You just broadly gestured towards all of society and called it a personal problem, ¿Que? XD

[@jacob_ian_decoursey_the_author]

It’s not that I don’t enjoy work. I enjoy work, activities one might even call “backbreaking labor.” What I don’t enjoy is compulsory work that encompasses the majority of my conscious life for something as abstract as a wage and in service to a large employer I have no stake in.

[@DrSanity7777777]

"If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[@doggydude4123]

@@Kevin-jv7mz Who would be doing the distributing labor?

[@sultanfarouk5518]

In a context/situation where you are not forced into labor - How is it 'compulsory' if you choose to work there? If you dont 'enjoy' it, why not put in the hard, valuable and much needed work required to have a business venture of your own?

[@63Limar]

@@sultanfarouk5518 if all choices available for you are bad and you are forced to work or starve is compulsory. I wonder if you would say the same argument, if Jews, who are being sent to death camps, could choose to go to Auschwitz or to the Majdanek. To be able to have a business venture of your own you are risking too much unless you are wealthy and can afford to go into debt.

[@justnoel4088]

@@63Limar met a boomer once who has this so ingrained in his mindset that he tells ppl like me they should be thankful and owe the faceless company they work for is paying for their living . . .

[@seneris]

There aren't many sins worse than robbing someone of their entire life

[@coastTOcoast533]

Nice to hear Chomsky with a solid interviewer who pushes back and makes him go even deeper.

[@smhsophie]

For once

[@pragmaticpolitics1413]

But he can never be pushed out of his depth

[@Peter_Kropotkin]

Just a 10/10

[@Trowa71]

The interviewer is definitely asking the questions of the very well informed audience.

[@beaubiden3244]

That’s what she said

[@minamur]

This really speaks to me. I used to be a programmer, now i'm a janitor and more happy by far. As a programmer i routinely felt what i was working on was ultimately useless, or that if it wasn't useless it had to be squeezed in in a rush that didn't allow for the project to be done in the way it should. Janitorial work is more of a chore, but i have autonomy and i can see the improvement to the world that i make every night.

[@JimTheCurator]

Are you serious? How are you doing financially? I'm contemplating stepping back from a fairly well-paying job in order to find something less stressful, less time-consuming so i can pursue my dreams. Would leave to hear more from you.

[@perciousmatter7001]

@@JimTheCurator your dream is probably the dream of many, its probably not a dream but a wish

[@JimTheCurator]

@@perciousmatter7001 well, at this point in time, I've got the same job but I'm set to reduce down a day, so it's becoming more manageable.

[@gooddogreallygooddog6157]

Jim, the Curator hope you are doing well

[@sarabb2056]

Good for you. I code and find the pressure of deadlines to be stressful. Its difficult to solve problems under pressure.

[@erickreyes9707]

“The joy is in creating, not maintaining.”-Vince Lombardi

[@erNomic]

We still live in a primitive society fighting imperialism just as we did 1000 years ago. Cell phones and shiny plastics have most of us fooled.

[@askaichin]

And National/Ethnic/Racial politics

[@HeathWatts]

Yes, every sixth months the rich throw a new toy at their serfs and the serfs zone out again.

[@HeathWatts]

@@askaichin If all humans had adequate food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare, most of those problems would melt away. Hungry, homeless, desperate, and overworked people are looking for a scapegoat for their problems. The rich are happy to point out that some "other", rather than the rich themselves, are our problem.

[@gwills9337]

@@HeathWatts yes, we have plenty of everything so that everyone can live a healthy life. The problem is our economic and political systems will require exploitation and profit to move. Only when we stop blaming each other and demand a fair share of society will OPTIONAL EVILS like hunger and homelessness fade.

[@HeathWatts]

G Wills I agree Millions of people starve around the world each year because they can't afford food, water, or medicine. Capitalism is murdering them for profit. How do you suggest we stand? We seem to be very unorganized. Even in so-called developed countries such as the US and those in the EU, workers are overworked, underplayed, and desperate. We need another labor movement.

[@songsabai3794]

When this interview was conducted, 'permanent debt slavery' had yet become the norm in mainstream society.

[@skyguy5587]

Song Sabai yupppp

[@nickb5689]

Debt is the yoke. We have to somehow make our own world or be a slave. Either way we must work bard to survive. I built my own little house and had no mortgage, but ruined my back, ha

[@jerryrichardson2799]

Nope, read _Monopoly Capital: An Essay on the American Economic and Social order,_ by Baran and Sweezy.

[@joshuapray]

I have always wondered what Noam Chomsky does in his free time. At 1:50 he answers the question (at least in regard to the weekend before this recording), and damn what a satisfying answer! This man is a hero.

[@coreycox2345]

I don't think anyone does things like that every weekend, Joshua Pray. It was good, though.

[@thomasbroleen4241]

He's a Muppet who lives in an ideological fantasy land. IDIOT.

[@JP-wx6uh]

@@thomasbroleen4241 Well that certainly seems like a logical presumption - people with PhD's are muppets. Yeah. That seems to make sense. However, I think we can't be too sure that they're all idiots. I think you're on to something profound though. Can't wait to see the peer reviews from your publication on this argument.

[@thomasbroleen4241]

@@JP-wx6uh Ah didums, did somebody criticise your hero, never mind won't be the first time or the last. Maggot cast, idiot bit. Thomas Sowell is plenty peer reviewed, I'll take his opinion over a pseudo economist any day of the week darling.

[@JP-wx6uh]

@@thomasbroleen4241 I don't believe Chomsky is a hero, he just uses common sense. He is quite the critic, but his criticisms are justified.

[@Deurhzd]

What sucks is the accountability, specially to people you do not respect. A man could build a pyramid by himself and not care about it, and it wouldn't even stress him out significantly. Make it a managed environment and it is hell.

[@edwardjones2202]

Exactly. Hierarchy and management are the worst. I prefer cleaning to office work because you're left alone and there s a start and a finish to the task.

[@ps123fan]

because some people feel ohh do it this way, this way or something? yea solitary work could be chill more than with many people in some instances.. cause with people there's just always some drama almost.. well i suppose thats what its like with bosses on some level.. but the comprimise point he made is a good point..

[@martinrev2.08]

Yea authority and threattening you on an existential level is pure stress

[@zuesr3277]

chomsky is so precise, professional I could imagine interviewers sweating to interview Chomsky one needs wisdom and insight years of training

[@keithklassen5320]

This interviewer seems quite confident and comfortable politely contradicting Chomsky, and I feel he does a fine job of questioning Chomsky's ideas. In this interview Chomsky is going pretty far into speculation, and while it's interesting speculation, he's really leaning into believing what he *wants* to be true, not what is immediately evident. Now that's not inherently wrong, we need people to go to those new places and build new worlds in their minds so that we can use their ideas to refine and improve what we have. But here Chomsky seems to be quite optimistic, perhaps even Pollyanna-ish.

[@ashutoshsingh3204]

@@keithklassen5320 What is immediately evident?

[@kylewit924]

Learning itself is a perfect example of the benefits of conscious work, as opposed to unconscious or forced work--in joy and fruitfulness!!

[@butt317]

In a society where people who do essential onerous work do it by choice and aren't devalued by the wage and class system, those workers would become highly valued among the community.

[@jabberw0k812]

It seems like many criticisms of this idea assume that the vast majority of production and labor in our current system happens because it's necessary for humanity. But consumerism creates markets to feed capitalism, not to feed people. I question how many of the jobs people have to do to pay their rent are actually necessary labor. The interviewer asking "But who will serve us ice cream on the beach?" comes to mind...

[@caspar_gomez]

"because much of the most meaningless drudgery can be taken over by machines, which means that the scope for really creative human work is substantially enlarged"... oh noam you sweet sweet man.....

[@wotwot6868]

This is gotta be one of the best lesson from Prof. Chomsky.

[@Ben-bg2lp]

His statements 50 years ago still holds true now and you can see it in Amazon's warehouses.

[@Peter-vc5ut]

The glaring assumption in Chomsky's proposal is that everyone knows what their talents are/what they'd love to do. The way our society/education, financial systems and parental upbringings are wired, the task of finding out what one truly enjoys doing and can do that consistently with an incremental level of involvement over time requires a fair degree of introspection and trying out many different things before you find what you truly love to do. Our society doesn't usually allow for that kind of time or truly encourage that kind of mind set. Very few people can spot their true passions early enough to shape their lives around it. Many never find it. And then, there are those that find it out when they're older, their minds trapped in the sunk-cost affect scenario, and real financial and familial burdens, where there seems to be no way out other than withstand unprecedented rejection, hardships and loneliness and alienation. I completely agree with his proposal and it'd be a great society where everyone does what they love and the residual tasks are evenly shared. But it's quite likely a utopian idea unless one proposes how to shake and break down the existing systems that push us all in the hamsters wheel in the first place.

[@timdrhookmccracken]

Well of course Chomsky isn't talking about THIS society, is he? That's the whole point of the discussion--how work SHOULD be viewed, not how it IS. Cop on, my good man. We never move forward as a species without Utopianisms. It's about imagining a better vision of society and then striving for that vision.

[@Peter-vc5ut]

@@timdrhookmccracken if one can't suggest even a broad pathway from how it is to how it should be, there's isn't much point being a political/economic analyst/professor despite the merit of one's view point, isn't it? he narrates a great vision like so many others but reality is that when you're starved dreams shrink to a plate. same way telling a depressed person to be happy works. it doesn't, really.

[@gustavoarellano4722]

Good interview. Gotta love the knowledge of this man. Love his work.

[@mdvann585]

chomsky is dead on with his assessment of work-the main reason that technology is a natural adaptation of man is to free us from work that is unsatisfying so we can pursue whatever things that gives meaning- yet because of man class order technology has not only not free us it has made man work harder at tasks that are unhealthy for us AND many are working without gaining the means of subsistence

[@ps123fan]

that be the best.. but then they have to reform schools, and in what way i suppose.. i mean to me... give the stsudent a week free outta the month, pay the student to learn, i dunno something.. some change..

[@LewisCannon_]

This is great, nice upload!

[@aaronkeithhoffer7969]

When he said basically, “if in a redesigned and optimized society, we find that it doesn’t make for enough want to do ice cream vending for ice cream vending sake then, then by golly we’ll have to roll up our sleeves and all pitch in” I lost it. He’s way funnier than people would have you believe. Usually at the expense of a hostile interviewer.

[@truecult666]

One day a month, we all need to share the burden of posting content on only fans. It's important work, and we all need to chip in.

[@DrSanity7777777]

"I've had the best possible chance of learning that what the working-classes really need is to be allowed some part in the direction of public affairs, Doctor-to develop their abilities, their understanding and their self-respect." - Henrik Ibsen, An Enemy of the People, English adaptation by Max Faber (1970), act II, p. 28. Mr. Hovstad is speaking.

[@bradfordmccormick8639]

I recently read that Abraham Lincoln thought the main difference between slavery and wage labor was that the former was a permenent not a temporary condition. I always resented being a wage-slave subjected to the coercive power of a manager. And as for commuting: I envied Japanese WWII kamikaze pilots who only had to make their commute once.

[@mattgraham8868]

Thanks for the upload

[@Discovery_and_Change]

1:14 wage slaves who will do any work because otherwise they'll starve 5:42 design social institutions so that some people are compelled to do that work (that no one wants to do) 6:16 in our society, the people who do unwanted work are paid the least 6:46 undesired work is given to wage slaves

[@danigiammarco7968]

Studying 21st century skillsets at the moment, I like his idea of doing the 'crap' work in a shared fashion. Humans still need novelty, don't like being ordered or owned, and like feeling achievement. If you're lucky enough to get yourself a job that intrinsically motivates you, that's amazing! If you haven't gone to find this, I think it becomes a philosophical question; are you motivated enough to enjoy life besides wage slavery? Can you overcome this, philosophically? Can we educate people to do this work and maintain their own identities? Is this whats already happening? I hope that all people can educate themselves to find meaning in the work that they do, and enjoy what they can in life without having to suffer from desires they cannot achieve.

[@Peter_Kropotkin]

:Co-ops for shitty jobs

[@jasonl8326]

The Amish and other such religious communities come close to Chomsky's ideal view of work. Individual members in these communities are usually trained and work in a particular area (farmer, carpenter, etc), but when the need arises members are called upon to pitch in and help in ways outside of their "job" (a carpenter may be asked to help with the harvest, while a farmer may be asked to help with a barn-raising). This leads to more well-rounded people and perhaps to less job "burnout".

[@sillyputtyisfun7567]

The fact we needed Noam Chomsky to talk about it to realize it shows how out of touch the corporate world as a whole is with the mental qnd physical healtu of its workers.

[@DJAntonetti]

Research Jacque Fresco and The Venus Project for some ideas on how we could move into the direction of machines fulfilling the mundane tasks and much more! He's who I think about when Chomsky talks about machines working for us instead of the other way around

[@Theomite]

You ever get the feeling that if Noam Chomsky handed you your own ass in a lecture, you'd walk away feeling grateful and fulfilled?

[@jakwire]

[science, tech, and intellect have not been devoted to the question -- or overcoming the onerous and self-destructive character of the "necessary work of society" -- the reason is the assumption that [some will do it or starve] and the rest of us ignore it.] -----> in this thinking people who do the gritty work that robots can't do would be among the wealthiest in society... or we'd all take turns on the crappiest jobs... I'm in agreement.... we are now testing the basic function that would make this work Universal Basic Income... will be very interesting to see how this unfolds! I would be happy to work/live in a town where most days I do work that I love -- AND would be okay with having to take my turn hauling trash or cooking, or completing whatever training necessary to help stand guard. As much as I've worked in capitalist structures all my life -- the kind of thinking Noam Chomsky represents makes sense to me. I'm not all that inspired by what some call 'the finer things' and much prefer enjoying time with people in simple ways -- sitting round a fire, eating, listening to music...

[@soxysoxy3277]

epic

[@samuelkostov]

I love this comment! One issue with UBI is that within a capitalist society, with the monopolies and unequal wealth distribution we have today, UBI would result in a lower class that is reliant on the upper class, with one being in a constant state of superiority. We must work towards another system before implementing UBI, to prevent setting our classes into stone and living the rest of our lives divided up into the rich and poor.

[@gwills9337]

@@samuelkostov we already have what you described; an oligarchy society that grows from eating its own. UBI will enshrine a minimum dividend to citizens - Aristotle even knew this was required for Democracy back in pre-history. You're just adding more steps. UBI is a liferaft that gives the working class the breathing room to SEE, THINK, and PARTICIPATE in modern civil society.

[@ps123fan]

yea that makes sense.. ohh today i'll do.. but life isnt like that for most people school is to fit into a mold, and your in a specific job.. like a robot sort of..

[@dylantierney6407]

Brilliant interviewer and interviewee

[@johngrotefeld6302]

Monasteries of varying traditions can provide an amazing space of healing, peace and transformation. People pay to visit; can find insight there (tasks will probably be shared in a fair way...). Ice Cream Vans are pretty rad too.

[@jacobzaranyika9334]

Thank you 🙏 Prof Norm

[@davefischer2344]

Omg love this

[@thepsycho-tropicsbyjdmckin9417]

What I have learned from Professor Noam Chomsky. He is always correct because he doesn't talk about issues that he hasn't resolved. Professor Chomsky has taken on, as his own, public matter's of how to achieve peace and Humon dignity. A hard lesson I have had to learn is that, at every point of my disagreements over any issue that I have made an attempt to bring through a different understanding of all issues I can think of... those issues that are at the heart of the average person's concern's, I have been wrong in my suppositions. My answers to the problems brought up in and around the obvious -to a range of language that is hidden in convoluted and purposely complex discourse that form an argument that is contradictory to rational conscience and good ethics...which may be difficult to some people to over come, Professor Chomsky makes, what seems to be almost instantaneous parsing of what is real and what is not real. What is valid an what is not valid. In full, Professor Chomsky is able to bringing forth, with ease (wisdom gained through a lifetime of dedication)* what is and what is not the truth. Professor Chomsky has been a stable force against my dreams to have more money than almost any-one else, more comfort, more of every thing I want than every-one else. The American Dream? Why not. Because some people will find themselves living in terrible situations (your fellow American) hungry, starving for food and away out of devistating lives, that no one really wants to be a part of or pay attention to. I give up on rationalising my own ignorance in favor of my own selfishness. Man, I have spent the last 30 Damn years of my life wondering where the reward is or isn't. The reward, in full, is that I have come to terms with an ephiney I had today. 52 years of work being egotistically sublime. I must be really special to throw every decent idea I have had, out the window for a deep concern for the welfare of my fellow Humon being. (My rather idiotic fantasy, that I wasn't making these efforts for my-self.). Again, In full, there isn't much, at all, that I haven't given away. .. ideas and physical things, that were not difficult to keep. In other words, easy to give a-way. Thanks for that dash. Just when I feel like I am "really some-thing" I take a quick look at my, (excuse the familaraty, please) ...I take the last glance at the truth, just to make sure, and there is My Chomsky meter. Not what I was hoping for. Go ahead, quit trying, use what you have gained, move on to that great American Dream. The same place that has , not all the time, however; most of the time... those people who are dying on the assembly line to get paid less than people who have some how rationalized, that they and not every-one on the planet is equally and infinitely valuable. That is just the way it goes. Get used to it... maybe some day we can all be comfortable enough to be able to think, or even pray to your choosen faith. Have you seen the look in a starving child's eyes? It is that we understand that... or we continue to decide and fracture our country to a point where it will be a commonality, that American's will start to murder American's. One murder is too many murders. And, social Justice will not come upon the death penilty, where the victims include the nurse, doctor's, Corrections officers who are doing this as part of their job responsibilities. Does, a person go out for a stiff drink after the job is done. Do they go home and cry because, as part of their job responsibilities... that they murdered a Humon being? Or both? Do they get paid extra for the repulsive aspect of thier effort. Have they succeeded? Have we as a Country succeeded when we pay more for pet food than a person who is starving to death. Whose comfort zone no longer offers the thought above their own survival or is that you? Is it my-self? Damn. Will we be blaming G-d for the state of the nation... Social Justice in this country is unspeakably astray toward the disenfranchised- where ever they maybe. At long last, take the words In God We Trust off of USA currency.The word's don't match the actions. *I can't tell you there is even a little change in his abilities as far back as I can reach into his past. I only say he has always been as brilliant as he is -to this very moment...that is too discouraging to say. I had to say it any-way. It has He nows what he is talking about more than any person I have ever encountered, in any-way.

[@hitoshijohnson]

You don't hate Mondays, you hate capitalism.

[@dewok2706]

...this niga out here saying people in the USSR/Maoist China didn't have work weeks

[@ChilsonTV]

let's be real tho, anyone who's ever sold ice cream for a living (me) knows nobody is doing that job because they want to... it sucks. if you disagree, ask yourself why you're not selling ice cream in your spare time.

[@faithalessandri968]

I agree. People should make their own damn ice cream cones

[@dazpatreg]

@@faithalessandri968 yeah very good, however someone still needs to make the cream and the equipment

[@sirnikkel6746]

People wants ice cream sometimes. Whoerever who wants to generate profit from this need can work and invest on it and assume the responsability. About the job being shitty or not, is just in you to give it the prespective you want: It is crap? It is good? It is fullfilling? That is just in you. If it is paid less, look the work market: Who much people can make and are willing to do the same work that you? It is submitted to the same rules of supply and demand that any good or service.

[@johnfallon8296]

Great topic.

[@greenspringvalley]

If undesirable work is too difficult to share or take turns, then it's skilled labor. Also, if the workers keep some of what goes to owner for profit then they can make the same money working at a more enjoyable pace and supply is still met because more people can also do this work because it's more enjoyable.

[@sirnikkel6746]

You had defined a co op

[@carllelendt5452]

This is such an excellent topic! Should be getting huge traction with lots of books published I'd think a person's job, career would be a contributing experience in the ongoing actualization process.. I think we can see how society especially now is more of an antagonist to actualizing. -Keeps people more at a hand-to-mouth, frustrated primal level of functioning, as they'll be easier (more predictable?) to mind-manage and profit from, exploit etc.. Keeps out-of-date, unevolved consumer markets in-place/protected!!. When I finished high school, I went straight into a local junior college, which was perfect since I was clueless (and skill-less). Thus I didn't expend massive money on a degree that might've been a bad fit. As it was, following JC (publicly funded), I spent about 7 yrs. of occupational pinball, randomly bouncing from one (low paying in most cases) job to another. Those job experiences were still effecting me psychologically, in positive and negative contexts, in varying degrees. But it was always, materially/economically, hand-to-mouth during those years, regardless how personally enjoyable, rewarding. I did pick up some good stories along the way though. However I think those destitute years of pinballing around from one job to another was very!! valuable. Maybe some people don't need so many years, if any?. Just the same, I think it was good. It's just that I think many of us could, building from aimless occupational pinballing, continue to personally "evolve" ourselves, push onward!! And I also think it's a "two-way" street in which society can make material and qualitative!! contributions to individual experiences, rather than undermining, even ruining people's lives, now literally killing people who end up self-medicating to numb their psychological grief/pain from lifestyle aimlessness, emptiness etc... So this is a "throw capitalism out entirely!" Or, instead, git rid of destructive, shallow-minded, control-freak capitalists! -Then manage society qualitatively, holistically! by more strategic, efficient blending of economic (capitalist/socialist) systems!. My opinion is, done right, we can, as a society, experience a very positive synergistic result, giving it an almost built-in immunity to some societal toxins.

[@carllelendt5452]

Just as we're told there has to be perpetual growth, economically, I think society also needs to be growing, evolving, actualizing. And this is where our captains of economic industry and such shoot themselves in the foot by opportunistically impeding or interfering with ongoing societal evolving, since they see it's profitable to do so. So, thus far, my opinion has been that capitalism can (done right!) do better. But existing capitalists, by impeding growth, blocking ongoing population evolving, cause wide-spread etiolation, which, in turn, then becomes widely profitable, as capitalism cashes-in on all the resulting societal malfunctioning. My thinking is, we're meant (by Nature) to always be on a continual positive growth "slope" (positively evolving in terms of actualizing, as individuals, thus yielding a more actualized and actualizing society or civilization)..-ascending (hence a 'healthy, natural' resistance), not kept perpetually floundering/groping. So where we had a positive slope, we flatlined, and, in my opinion, are now on a negative trajectory. And noteworthy, I'm using the slope term in broader context than just its usual economic use. These other forms of growth add additional dimension which are in qualitative and perhaps are more difficult to "chart" and otherwise work with..

[@celestialteapot3310]

Re - Alan Watts, it's how one sounds if one is English, middle class, and has been to the University of Oxford, unlike myself for instance; English, working class and Manchester... quite another kettle of fish altogether.

[@marcusgorvin175]

Hello I had a friend from Manchester who laughed at American attempts at the English accent for just this reason!

[@celestialteapot3310]

Marcus Gorvin​ Those of us with regional English accents are often regarded as less intelligent by spectacularly stupid people claiming to speak so called "standard English"

[@davidjones500]

Is right lad.

[@dudedude2938]

Celestial Teapotm

[@GreenMorningDragonProductions]

Celestial Teapot True, and furthermore, the problem you outline got compounded by people like Anthony Burgess and Tony Wilson, who deemed it necessary to talk posh to get taken seriously as intellectuals. Brian Cox, to be fair has retained something of his accent, and has gone for the "Well-spoken Northerner" option. Americans mainly don't have an ear for English accents anyway - I grew up in South Manchester and have never lost my accent. But my classmates and teachers at the University of Michigan just luuuurved my "Bruddish accent!". Americans think John Oliver sounds sophisticated and smart, but to me he sounds like Jasper Carrot's intellectually challenged younger brother.

[@VR_JPN]

Quite interesting how the "onerous work" example given by the interviewer is "selling ice-creams on a beach, on a public holiday". I don't think he's qualified to discuss this topic.

[@HNWRobertPaulsonHNW]

Abbass Hussain yeah what a sociopath

[@avamasquerade]

@@HNWRobertPaulsonHNW nope, just soft.

[@spfcasual3786]

Noam's example was a mechanic. Both of these two have no idea what qualifies as a shitty job. Intellectuals...

[@Victoriens]

@@spfcasual3786 His point is that a lot of work that may not seem onerous at first glance reveal themselves to be so once you look at the conditions that make it onerous, such as arbitrarily assigned schedules, enforcement of arbitrary policies which can oftentimes make no sense and are never explained, the mental burden of being constantly watched by an overseer to whom one is responsible, and so on. That shittier jobs than the ones he described exist doesn't serve to disprove his point; it only further strengthens it.

[@cookiestar3069]

Wow. So plainly and clearly explained.

[@GreenMorningDragonProductions]

The opening question was a very good one!

[@5Gazto]

Land management as in Feudal systems, or production management as in modern economics (capitalism/socialism) are really two sides of the same coin. Everybody needs to own some land and/or means of production to avoid the feeling that one is being pulled by the strings of someone else. Truly smart and lucky people can manage to gather to organize high tech agriculture and self sufficiency to the highest degree (still relying on currency for buying the equipment, renewal, etc.)

[@ethanmcnary9119]

Preach

[@nickb5689]

Longevity, quality of life, and work satisfaction ,with people as tools of either capitalism or socialism, means one has to create ones own world or serve a master's world of whatever design.

[@Lanooski]

vastly better interviewer than i'm used to on these

[@-delilahlin-1598]

"I say it seems to me that if human intelligence were devoted to asking how technology can be designed to fit the needs of the human producer instead of conversely, that is: now we ask how the human being, with his special properties, can be fitted into a technological system designed for other ends -- production for profit -- my feeling is that if that when we've done the redesign but the *really* unwanted work (which is far smaller than you suggest, but whatever it is) let's say, whatever amount it is, notice that we have two alternatives: One alternative is to have it equally shared; The other is to design social institutions so that some group of people will be simply compelled to do that work on pain of starvation. Those are the two alternatives."

[@Kingfish179]

It's refreshing to be reminded of a time when two individuals with diametrically opposed ideological viewpoints can have an honest, civil and rational discussion.

[@pantera29palms]

This is an interview. Nobody interrupting each other…and if one disagrees he does it respectfully. Damn, the times have changed…

[@mpumelelomdlalose8159]

I know the job satisfaction and longevit relation is true because Chomsky, Fresco and many others went beyond the 90's

[@hendriksmedia]

A mind like a steel trap.

[@dorianphilotheates3769]

If neurosurgeons were to be paid $20/hr. and public sanitation workers $120/hr., most people would strive to become rubbish collectors...

[@stupididietmoron9996]

people dont become neurosurgeons because of the pay they do it because it fascinates them lmao. you really think someone would join a field that specialized just because of the pay? that probably accounts for less than 5% of people. Also were imagining a society where everyones base needs are met and people arent allowed different standards of living because of which work they do

[@dorianphilotheates3769]

stupididietmoron - Fascinates them, eh? Let’s see how many would be “fascinated” by this grand scientific discipline if its practitioners were paid minimum wage, or better still, if they had to pay out of pocket for the privilege of working in the field...

[@stupididietmoron9996]

@@dorianphilotheates3769 you think they would stop being neurosurgeons? are you really this stupid

[@dorianphilotheates3769]

stupididietmoron - The overwhelming majority would; and yes, I am.

[@ps123fan]

@@stupididietmoron9996 yea excatly..

[@djtan3313]

Correct, Master Chomsky. “If one loves his job, one does not even work for a day.” - Confucius We should strive to bring about such a system.

[@bgbrthrswtchngu2012]

If we had the capability of creating a system where everyone enjoyed what they were doing, we would probably be in a situation beyond the actual need of anyone to be doing anything. Work would be nothing more than to keep people occupied with their time. In fact, a little discomfort makes leisure time more enjoyable.

[@sirnikkel6746]

@@bgbrthrswtchngu2012 Ancaps, ansynds, mutualists and ancoms want a word with you.

[@ps123fan]

@@bgbrthrswtchngu2012 haha thats (: well if robots did take over most jobs, people do whatever, i mean maybe world will be a better place, people be more naturally social then.. not forced, get up everyday, work, work, work, that is tyrrany imo, and people will stil lform gruop and do what they like, but it will be more natural i think, people will still do stuff.

[@bgbrthrswtchngu2012]

@@ps123fan No. You go home. Eat an lunchable or whatever you do in there. Don't come back until you are older than you are at this moment. You have much to offer the world and we at the U.N. anxiously await your glorious return, king of Wakanda.

[@Shiro46AV]

The interviewer kinda sounds like Alan Watts lol.

[@celestialteapot3310]

Anarcho Vegan l think it's Peter Jay, similar background but very different world view.

[@Shiro46AV]

Allan Jones Thanks for the info. Definitely didn't sound like Watts worldview. Watts probably would have given a super long explanation that lsd and orgies are the answer to everything in life... "Orgy-porgy, orgy-porgy!" Just kidding, I actually really enjoy Alan Watts work! 👍✌👌

[@celestialteapot3310]

Anarcho Vegan​​ Yes, Watts' world view seems to get more relevant with age. Peter Jay was Ambassador to the US in the seventies, he's in his 80's now

[@Doctor_Subtilis]

How is anarcho veganism supposed to work? Animal products are kinda essential for non-commercialized human life, for materials and nutrient cycling. Veganism makes sense in a grocery store but not anywhere else

[@TheAlechoc]

This was my first thought as soon as i started the video ahaha

[@mikeostrowski2157]

This is what journalism used to be. Now it's all about working for a company that wont let you talk about what you want to.

[@TieDef]

The fact that the interviewer's example of work no one would want to do is giving ice cream to children on the beach makes it really seem like he's a stooge for Chomsky. That's a job that would both be very obviously enjoyable to a great many people, and is one that would be easily automated (ice cream vending machines are everywhere in Japan).

[@mtoad]

I don't think so. I suspect he came to that example by discounting an obviously onerous task like garbage collection--one that would certainly be a focus, in Chomsky's vision, of our combined effort to automate or alleviate--and attempted to choose a task that struck him as more subtly onerous, and one that may likely be low on a list of priorities for automation.

[@wordwarrior2350]

It is not just a matter of work it is more the "Career" where a person is on one track to the so-called, top. The stress of competition drives them to drugs, drink, and other forms of corruption which shorten their lives.

[@wordwarrior2350]

@K lake I don't disagree, but it has always been that way, one way or another. Just be satisfied that it is NOT You or Me.

[@well.thy.one.]

People will properly compensate any tasks that are strongly undesired.

[@bluefrogmarch]

Complete financial destitution is one hell of an 'incentive' (or disincentive, whatev) to give your life 'meaning' and discourage 'idleness'. People spend their freetime brilliantly, but social relationships in the public discourage people from participating in the traditional labor force. Some people just wont put up with it.

[@narutofan4545]

Based brother

[@proteus4301]

People might not be convinced by what Chomsky says here or regard it as irrelevant. But it is actually crucial that we begin to explore alternative ways to organise the economy, how and what we produce and a way of collectively deciding how we shape outcomes that benefit us all. The contemporary era of capitalism and nation states is threatening the future of viable human survival and moving on from this era and ending the self imposed danger critically requires a new economic system devoid of wasteful and dangerous competition.

[@jacobzaranyika9334]

I can’t believe they still went ahead to do that after I shared the video of the little girl with the red coat. Things are worse than I thought. We are ALL in trouble unless some of us stand up and reject the way we are headed.

[@BenJehovah6969]

It's going to take more work than they have to energy to do......

[@VeganSemihCyprus33]

There is a 4th society, where undesired work is done by machines and AI. As in the Venus Project :) A brilliant and bright idea for planning the society of the future!

[@Strangepete]

yes!

[@melikey0187]

The problem is that we as a society need to force these changes, unfortunately there seems to of been some backsliding and infighting because it seems fighting for gender rights before others humans rights seems we stopped caring about others and starting looking out for ourselves.

[@EmperorFool]

Ice cream vendor on a hot summer day can't be rewarding? Geez, every single customer will be so grateful for your mere presence, let alone your having a good selection or a cheery demeanor. Compared to working on a hot steel smelting line? FFS, was this interviewer that daft?

[@deplaneetegmont]

Add a fat sound system in your truck, your own original flavour combinations and some topless girls on the beach. What was this guy thinking?

[@jamesboulger8705]

I always wondered why people had not examined the notion of essential work services as some sort of civil service that is rotated. There is more than enough people to go around and haul the garbage once a month. Certainly there are enough rich people and trust fund kids playing playboy for most of the day as well. I think the shift would have to be seeing it as your public duty as some government constraining your liberty. I suppose a more worker's council like system where one feels they took part in the decision making would give the sense of it being equitable and that you were a part of the decision process. That shift feels difficult, almost insurmountable, as people have compartmentalized hard positions on the right and left with heavy use of rhetoric relating to the "government" and "liberty." Well isn't the government supposed to be the people? This is just a government of actually being the people. Anyways, this issue of not feeling a sense of public duty is already a problem today. Companies and businesses will ache about taxes and slimming profit margins but give no thought to the wear and tear they put everyday on our roads, bridges, and other public services. Nevermind other investments from the government like the internet, which has enabled individuals to makes billions and billions.

[@s3fruit969]

Holy based

[@faithalessandri968]

I think any work can be good if people are paid well for it.

[@SoundsSilver]

Chomsky’s view of service work is so positive it borders on naive, though perhaps this is a reflection of the changes that have occurred in the nature of this work. Did a cashier in 1950 take pleasure in dealing with customers? Might today’s cashiers do so as well were they liberated from the starvation wages and economic exploitation under which they presently suffer?

[@spfcasual3786]

Just say it. Chomsky doesn't know wtf he's talking about when it comes to shitty low skill jobs.

[@hey-its-me2848]

It wouldn't be as bad if they would pay us everyday we finish our shift, but they wait two whole weeks possibly a whole month that means we working for free there has to be something that can be done to change this its not fair!!!

[@dantrizz]

I was so surprised to hear the interviewer say that there's no way to see a craftman's joy or social nobility in selling icecreams to people on the beach. That strikes me as obvious. If you have your own business you get to sell what you like, which could easily include creating different designs and flavours and what have you, and you get to make people good when they're slightly suffering from the heat. If that's the sort of thing you like in life then, this easily fills those criteria. To hear someone not even remotely consider that before Chomsky offers any repost seems like a genuinely lack of real empathy for people, in terms of who they are and what they truly value in life. And a lack of deep and "true" empathy seems like the biggest problem we have in the world

[@elainema5950]

Current transition period to find meaning in life

[@Scrinch_stole_schristmas]

Interesting that he brought up the job of an ice cream vendor as one with no job satisfaction...because I very well could imagine a friendly old grandpa absolutely adoring the opportunity to make children’s days with some ice cream, I see people in that job oftentimes extremely happy purely based on the fact that by making other people’s day enjoyable (through ice cream), that leads to a sense of satisfaction that you are, in a very small way, improving someone’s life

[@eternity8811]

Yeah it's such a noble job getting kids addicted to sugar.

[@mcguzzetti]

Can anyone make out the title of that book next to Noam? The one with the peace sign on it

[@MyRobertallen]

Circa 13:00. Work becomes onerous when one is forced to do it- on pain of losing one's job- under oppressive conditions or in a manner one finds wrong-headed. The 'cheery' ice-cream vendor would quickly lose his sanguinity were his boss constantly watching him or forbidding him from bantering with customers.

[@Keaggan]

He's talking about paradise rule in the new system. It won't be achieved via human constructions but rather under Godly rule.

[@pa_blo4220]

I guess Chomsky is saying that our present system is based on the assumption that people do the work they do solely through need for money (bread). What he is proposing is a system based on the assumption that people do the work they do because they chose to. How does one then chose what work to do? I think it takes a certain degree of 'knowing' oneself to be able to fulfill themselves as far as work life goes.

[@aaronsanders6162]

pa_blo no shit. You’ll be forced to live a life of your own choosing

[@ssssssssss1638]

under a different school system that would be a lot easier, our school doesnt help people ask those questions it just gets people to memorize and repeat the things theyve memorized. A better system would be a deweyite system where kids are taught to inquire rather than memorize

[@ductanle2806]

@@ssssssssss1638 There's already one in Finland. I would also want to add that school can teach independent thinking/question everything. 12 years are way too enough for that.

[@phootphetishphilip5551]

My dad said there's only one true pleasure in life *....BEER* 🍺 🤣🤣😂

[@comedyislyf]

What's the name of the book/essay(s) where Chomsky discusses this issue in detail?

[@lewisfarrant1569]

His book 'On Anarchism' might be a good place to start bud :)

[@bubblepopshot6891]

The essay quoted by the interviewer at the beginning is "Psychology and Ideology"

[@d.m.collins1501]

As far as what to do with necessary drudgery, I think there's a fourth option, though maybe it's kind of a subset of option 2: a "work lottery."

[@d.m.collins1501]

Or rather I should say a "work draft." Everyone takes a ticket, and the losers are forced to do the shit work for a while. Of course, we treat them like heroes, and pin medals of Foucault's severed heads on their chests etc to help them appreciate the work more. We could also supplement the draft with "free enlisters" who don't necessarily want to do the work, but want the glory, just like people now join the military not for the love of killing but for the love of country and honor. Needless to say, these types will get laid a lot.

[@ThePeanutButterCup13]

@@d.m.collins1501 Interesting lol

[@lokiikol2917]

I think this is what we are al craving for. Meaningful jobs

[@nolives]

The host also ignores automation of drudgerous jobs...

[@Pedro-ds3cq]

A world without Chomsky will be a blunt world

[@waindayoungthain2147]

Yes, my Father, I’ll try. Please give me your mercy please if I couldn’t.🙏🏼😊

[@tinnedtuna8242]

One thing I don't understand within Chomsky's vision of work is how the distribution or organisation of labour is to be managed. A modern city is an incredibly complex tapestry of both working people and work to be done. The labour market serves as a reasonably efficient way of managing the supply and demand of the necessary skills and capabilities. It has some every significant failings, but nevertheless it does create an acceptable balance between what's needed and what's available (in terms of labour supply). I find the prospect of managing this process, in the absence of market mechanisms, utterly bewildering. I see two major issues with what he is saying. 1. The completion of complex projects requires the long term commitment of individuals to roles which help to deliver those projects. The market creates specialisation within stable roles that serve a crucial role in the delivery of such projects. If people are to be completely free to choose their own work, then how can complex projects be delivered. If, for example, hundreds of men decide they don't want to do some laborious aspect of building a highway, and walk off site. How do you respond to this? Share this work between all other members of society equally as Chomsky suggests? How is that to be organised? What about the work those people had been doing? 2. Let's imagine that in the absence of market mechanisms, the vocational instinct of human beings still leads them to pursue specialisations within roles which are valuable for the completion of complex projects. And let's imagine that the guys doing the laborious work on the highway don't walk off site, because the satisfaction of delivering such an important piece of infrastructure had sufficient meaning and important to provide them with the motivation to continue. I still struggle to see how you will not over time create a stratified society of highly skilled individuals who have a disproportionate control over decision making. Even if you have an anarchist system at the beginning, a hierarchy of sorts where the authority of knowledge becomes entrenched seems inevitable. Am I being pessimistic? I just can't see how this would work in a large scale and urbanised modern society.

[@thomase13]

I have thought for some time that the third option he mentions would have to be the way: everyone has a good standard of living but those who take undesirable jobs get more money! How else but by setting up a positive incentive like this could it work? My dentist is absolutely fascinated and totally passionate about teeth, but how many people like that are there? Most dentists (and I've seen many) are clearly in it for the money and they absolutely deserve it in my opinion because it's a horrible job I could never do but everyone needs dental care!

[@MassDefibrillator]

The existence of massively useful open source projects with long term goals disproves your first point. Wikipedia is one example, Linux is another and github a third. And again, for your second point, there is no need to imagine, the examples I give are proof that people do this in our current social dynamic. As far as I can see, the only real point you have is that some work is less rewarding than others, I think this comes down to three things: Autonomy, Master and Purpose, thing like linux and wikipedia encompass all three of these things, whereas, things like laying down roads only really encompass purpose and mastery, so it's naturally less desirable work to do. Ironically, the more you automate a job like laying down roads, the less mastery is involved, and the less desirable it becomes, but you simultaneously remove large amounts of necessary labor. As far as I see it, these sorts of argument that Chomsky outlines are greatly connected with automation and bullshit jobs that currently exist in capitalism. For example, there is an absolutely HUGE amount of work that only exists because of market competition, things like advertising, corporate lawyers, large amounts of finance jobs etc, as soon as you get rid of capitalism as it exists, you suddenly need a lot less highways as well, as people don't need to drive from suburbs into cities nearly as much. As for a hierarchy developing from control of highly skilled work, I agree that something would naturally evolve like that, but here's the major difference between that example and capitalism. In capitalism, increased automation (read technological development) leads to increased disparity of power, as peoples labor becomes less valuable, but simultaneously more productive. We have seen this with the ramping up of a disconnect between wages and productivity since the 70s. Now, instead, apply this same logic to a worker controlled system, automation start to take control, so labor becomes less valuable, but you instead have the opposite effect: now we see that labor becoming less valuable actually distributes power more; highly skilled people, especially ones who's work impact the basic needs of a society, have their power distributed to society when their work becomes more automated. They key point here being that automation is owned by society at large, rather than specific corporations.

[@nickjames7914]

Tinned Tuna Great points!

[@perfectionbox]

Left to their own choices, people always form groups that have "too many chiefs and not enough indians." It's why we have money and power dynamics-there isn't enough time to argue with those who don't want to clean sewers and flip burgers.

[@gaming4K]

3:13 i have wrote about this on my reddit share the work what we need to do and don't do the work which is wasting the human power don't make toys for kids what they throw away in few months weeks or even minutes. Indians, Asians, Africans could share the work the necessary work we can make so much food if we make the vertical farming cheaper we can exponentially increase the food resource from vegetables increase housing by just not do the work what's not necessary to our fellow humans survival. so so much could be done by just giving the people opportunity to work and get what they need to work. We can make buildings as many as all humans need yet we keep it for those who have money to buy them. When we could give the technology to those who needs houses who needs food etc.. I WOULD WORK FOR THEM MORE HAPPILY THAN WORK FOR MONEY...

[@PappyMandarine]

The interviewer doesn't get it. The main and implicit point here is that 90%+ of current jobs will disappear in a society described by Chomsky, precisely because these jobs are not contributing to the community overall. Think about advertisements, marketing, shitty entertainment, celebrity culture, fashion, luxury, fast food and so on... These only exist in our current society BECAUSE the dirty work gets done by slaves, while the richest fraction of the population gets tremendous fabricated needs. The day we all gather and think collectively, an entire & huge segment of the economy is going to disappear. Corporations will be ruined and so on... The other key element that has to be considered is that such society will only be possible after the consciousness of humans evolve considerably. Capitalists will acknowledge that they were more the slaves of money rather than its masters; and the working-class will understand the false consciousness in which it was imprisoned. Everyone will have to be very highly educated to understand these things. It is utopian in that regard as the exact opposite is happenings before our eyes, but not utopian in the sense that it is inherently impossible.

[@north407west5]

Shitty entertainment, celebrity culture, fashion, luxury, and fast food are things that people want. They by no means only exist because they get done by slaves.

[@ps123fan]

corporatins are.. they gave.. what they even give us, some.. entertainment i suppose, but look at the enviourmental problem.. you know its.. some rich fucks, elites keepp delaying it, keep delaying it cause they want money, money, money or something, somethomes i ask myself what do most people even think about? not new solution like, i dunno less work.. how can humans not give a fuck but also give a damn at the same time.. i dunno take sports.. it makes no sense on some level..

[@PappyMandarine]

@@north407west5 Manufactured "needs" or more accurately manufactured desires. If you want to build an evolve society, it cannot be based on primal and unresponsible desires. Yes, the kids I teach all desire to eat candy, all the time. All human beings have a tendency towards idiotic hedonism (a phrase by Mark Fisher). But at some point, we need to go beyond and go back to the older philosophical & ethical notions of "good". Otherwise, we're just going to destroy the planet because we want the things that destroy it. Is it paternalistic? Most certainly, and I don't see it as a major problem. It's either that or pure & endless infantilizing - which capitalism in its most advanced form is doing to us.

[@MigorRortis]

I don’t hate work, it can be fun. I hate busy work.

[@The31JOEISANERDS]

anyone know what the essay the interviewer refers to at the beginning?

[@bubblepopshot6891]

The essay quoted by the interviewer at the beginning is "Psychology and Ideology"

[@circumscris]

I want to fimd the full talk. Who is he debating with?

[@abside30glu]

NOBODY BUT NOAM CHOMSKY IN THE BASIS OF ALEXIS DE TOCQUEVILLE COULD ASUME MICROMEGAS ROLE HERE AND NOW… PLEASE DO WHAT DEMOCRATS JUST CAN DO. DO DEMORACY NOW ! 2017.12.14.

[@sariahlace5944]

I don’t believe,working for wages,is the answer. we could all just do,what we love,and benefit,each other,whilst doing it. simple logic,which we as humans don’t seem to have. the way the work system is set up basically makes us,selfish greedy,sick and desperate.

[@laverdad8915]

interviewer also sounds like Earl Nightingale, lol

[@ericdyer3007]

Not whatsoever