Norman Finkelstein: There is no hope | Israel-Palestine Debate and Lex Fridman

[@LexClips]

Full podcast episode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4nCfJehpKyridU Lex Fridman podcast channel: kzbin.info Guest bio: Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.

[@readynowforever3676]

Phenomenal stuff Lex. Will you please consider having a response analysis to this classical debate from Dr. Dan Schueftan and someone very intelligent and informed from the opposite political spectrum ?

[@undercoveragent9889]

You demean the subject matter under discussion and disrespect Finklestein and Rabbani with this, Lex. You should be ashamed of yourself. The money-lenders plying their trade in the Temple on the Sabbath are a metaphor for men like you and Piers Morgan. You are not only profiting from a genocide being waged on _religious_ grounds, you are attempting to prolong support for it by bringing on a 'celebrity' whom is ignorant of the history, the politics and religion surrounding the subject in order to weaponize his popular appeal for the purpose of increasing _support_ for genocide. You are guilty of a very grave crime, Lex, and you should be held to account for it. And if I were you, I would _pray_ that there is no hell in which I could burn for eternity because believe me, you have certainly _earned_ a place there. Norman Finklestein, however, _will_ abide with God if it _is_ the case that your prayers do not fall on _deaf_ ears. If God _is_ listening, pal, you are doomed.

[@MarionThi]

Why does Yemen support Gaza? They have a faith ☝️✌️❤️‍🔥

[@Oregoony]

Given his cadance, attitude and manor Norman is a disingenuous person. Destiny was right to call-out Norman's BS.

[@BaschBarrage]

whenevr I see Destiny in debate, the onIy thing I see is, he used to beBuIIed a lot and being shushh down, and as he is 35 now, he will do his best to get the Iast word and interrupt evrytime he can so onIy his point wiII be heard.

[@Middlelaneonly]

No one can wake up a man who’s pretending to sleep. (Old Apache proverb)

[@odoylerules4503]

I like that very much

[@philosophicaltrainer2610]

That's one of the most brilliant proverbs I have come across. Incredibly deep

[@HopeForPeave]

Through force u can, but the consequential response then cannot be determined.

[@fazlijaarifi688]

Gold,solid gold!!

[@2ichtwerker]

True wisdom. I like it.

[@henriettal8893]

‘Destiny’ is an embarrassment to himself and to this discussion. Finkelstein: “There IS no hope…I am not happy to say that.” Destiny’s idiotic, childish retort: “ Of course you are.” Seat-filling middle-schooler at a post-doc seminar.

[@Prometheus70747]

He's basically a troll. He never makes intelligent arguments

[@dfmrcv862]

His response is accurate, though. Finklestein's reactions on Oct 7 showed he is happy when stuff like this happens, and only backtracks when it suits him.

[@Prometheus70747]

@@dfmrcv862 That's a very subjective observation. Let's stick to facts, huh? Finkelstein is 100% correct on that. The UN has established the blockade as illegal and as a human rights disaster. Destiny asked for evidence for Finkelstein's claims and he got it. Then just deflected by attacking Finkelstein's personal character. Cheap troll move.

[@AlexAlex-xy9vb]

Finkelstein is incredibly dishonest. Always quotes international law then celebrates when Hamas or the Houthis break international law. He’s a fraud and always has been.

[@Wate]

If you think that was a childish retort, I'm dying to hear what you would call Finkelstein's name calling

[@choukribendiha9044]

“The threshold of complete imbecility “ is a gem 😂

[@TurtleTube123]

It's actually one of the many times Mr. Finkelstein lost my respect. Whenever someone goes the ad hominem path, I start seriously doubting anything and everything he says

[@DomCoreLeon]

I agree. It was disappointing and even more so that people seem to have enjoyed it or think its a "gem" ​@klgamit

[@kmg474]

In fairness. It is insulting to Norm to put him on the same panel as "Density".

[@markrutledge5855]

​@@kmg474But he accepted the invitation so that cannot be an excuse for poor behavior.

[@kmg474]

​@markrutledge5855 Well, on reflection, Norm probably was a bit rude, but I understand his sheer frustration at trying to debate people who simply aren't educated on the topic.

[@oliveoil5789]

Mouin Rabbini is such a professional speaker and conducts himself with class. The young man speaking on the pro-Israel side is a disgraceful, arrogant man who was way in over his head.

[@Kamfrenchie]

Nah, that's finkelstein

[@tiktokviral6218]

@@Kamfrenchieyou support destiny you cant be more pathetic lol 😂

[@Stable_Genius]

​@@Kamfrenchienah, it's little stevie

[@Kamfrenchie]

@@Stable_Genius not really no, it's finki "i rejoiced on october 7th as Israel was humbled " And "i have no sympathy for Charlie hebdo"

[@lancemanfredi6123]

Such shallow comments from some

[@javi3701]

How can they dismiss everything that critisizes them, forget Amnesty international, forget the UN, forget the ICJ, these people are criminals through and through.

[@martinwhitney9343]

they all are. there are no good guys in this endless shit show

[@JackSack-w5h]

Finkelstein literally said the same shit against the UN recently when they said there was evidence/proof that Hamas raped civilians on Oct. 7

[@srrs7928]

@jjd2737 How much are they paying you?

[@rap1897]

​@@srrs7928how much is Hamas paying you ?

[@ambimu55hak]

@@jjd2737blah blah f***ing blah

[@gri7]

Why is Destiny there. By what metric is he qualified

[@aidoskashenov4532]

Mr bonabelli can distinguish netanyahu and erdogan since 2 month ago so he is qualified to defend zionism

[@MrEmreWawa]

marketing, clickbait, etc.

[@oliveoil5789]

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@toneloke454]

Who cares, he’s a good debater, and finkstein is a pro at using cheap debate tactics to run away from every difficult point made.

[@PoeticAmmunition.]

​@@toneloke454 Those cheap tactics called facts?

[@Harlem1mentality]

How can you measure starvation? We know that we have 6 deaths from starvation but how many others have died from illnesses that were exacerbated by famine. To say that people are not starving right now is crazy. It’s obvious that international law only matters to others

[@chrishernandez8504]

Well how have they been saying that Gaza is starved if you can't measure starvation? We measure birth rates, death rates, obesity and so on ... So what are you talking about other than doing the same mental gymnastics Norm did in this conversation? And destiny said they had six cases of starvation today then he said "I'm talking about before Oct 7" he was the one that brought it up so who's comment are you arguing with?

[@jaykay415]

how come you never see skinny adults around these few children we have seen medically suffering?

[@mmagician748]

So when we see videos of people eating grass and animal food and sleeping for days to wait for aid and scooping rice from dirt its just Hollywood filming there next movie 😄

[@Harlem1mentality]

@@jaykay415 we saw images and videos of skinny adults. When The IDF released the images of the Palestinians men and children almost naked restrained with dogs around them.

[@Harlem1mentality]

@@chrishernandez8504 what you mentioned were all the easy quantifiable things. You can see obesity, you can weigh it. You can calculate birth rate and deaths very easily. Starvation can be tricky to calculate but we know how much aid is going it. We know the size of the population. We know the minimum amount of calories needed to survive. By looking at all the numbers you can say yes they are starving in Gaza.

[@OfficialSolidState]

Stop reading internet comments, it's bad for you

[@noahhardy1658]

Thx I needed that😂

[@srrs7928]

I can't stop, there's just too much stupidity I have to refute! Someone help me!

[@KinanSamsung]

Stop treating them seriously, most of them is just hasba rat troll

[@tarikrobot8568]

True.

[@chanegun]

Thank you

[@AssociatedMindsTV]

Destiny has nailed his own credibity into a coffin during this entire debate. He literally allows himself to be filmed dismissing the hunger of 500,000 children and needs to hear someone explain the metric before he can even begin to care. What a shell of a human being. Cooked himself publicly.

[@smith46695]

Ya and it’s all on hamas they poked the bear and they don’t give a shit about the Palestinians the steal their money and food you have no idea what you are talking about

[@johns9969]

My understanding is he's a lifestyle influencer/TikToker that wondered into the wrong show.

[@da7me22]

The guy literally says Jim Crow is not apartheid. I was blown away by this.

[@sidenote1459]

​​​@@da7me22wait really? I might have missed that. Why would he say that!?

[@Firstname_Surname]

​@@sidenote1459because he cares about the meaning of words

[@osakagrindset]

4:59 "actual starvation"? Dawg this destiny dude is fucking gross. What a disgusting way to downplay the consequences of Israeli actions.

[@mikes6962]

It’s always the virtue signaling in comments like this. No one is downplaying anything. They’re stating that there are actual metrics by which you can measure whether actual starvation or famine are occurring. It’s just logic and facts. Also, why not say Israeli and Hamas actions? Huh? Why only mention Israeli actions? What about if Hamas used the humanitarian aid for food instead of rockets?

[@osakagrindset]

@@mikes6962 If buildings, people and infrastructure are being bombed to smithereens, and Israel is restricting food and aid allowed into the country, and people are being gunned down when they try to access the very little flour they even are allowed... Exercise a bit of critical thinking skills mike; I'll let you take care of the rest lil bro. To come in and say "🤓☝actually" which is the way you interpreted this 'Destiny' person's comment is still fucking stupid and callous. Also, stop trying to psychoanalyze strangers on the internet based on a single comment talking about 'virtue signalling' or whatever. It's fucking weird and you don't know me, my intentions, or pretty much anything.

[@osakagrindset]

@@mikes6962 If buildings, people, infrastructure are being bombed to smithereens, and Israel is restricting food and aid allowed into the country, and people are being gunned down when they try to access the very little flour they even are allowed... Exercise a bit of critical thinking skills mike; I'll let you take care of the rest lil bro. To come in and say "🤓☝actually" which is the way you interpreted this 'Destiny' person's comment is still fucking stupid and callous. Also, stop trying to psychoanalyze strangers on the internet based on a single comment talking about 'virtue signalling' or whatever. It's fucking weird and you don't know me, my intentions, or pretty much anything.

[@notsoeloquent]

Palestinians are way up on obesity chart. Look up the numbers. They have definitely not been suffering from hunger. I hate to bring this up but you went there yourself. The amount of international aid per Palestinian far exceeds average annual salaries in most countries.

[@osakagrindset]

​@@mikes6962 If a buildings, people, infrastructure are being bombed to smithereens, and Israel is restricting food and aid allowed into the country, and people are being gunned down when they try to access the very little flour they even are allowed... Exercise a bit of critical thinking skills mike; I'll let you take care of the rest lil bro. To come in and say "🤓☝actually" which is the way you interpreted this 'Destiny' person's comment is still fucking stupid and callous. Also, stop trying to psychoanalyze strangers on the internet based on a single comment talking about 'virtue signalling' or whatever. It's fucking weird and you don't know me, my intentions, or pretty much anything.

[@Archontides]

06:06 the person with the light blue shirt denies that people in Palestine are starving.. Insane

[@j_sr3608]

And we are supposed to expect honesty and sincerity from these genocidal invaders. This is the standard of recording history in Israel, no wonder they are shocked when hit with facts.

[@THEOAKCAT]

They weren’t before 7 oct…. And they are barely any cases of it having now

[@j_sr3608]

@@THEOAKCAT "barely". Say no more. That is some progress from complete denial.

[@edinahalilovic4248]

​@THEOAKCAT I hope you and your kids live like Palestinians under Israhell occupation. I would like to see how you would feel???

[@CC-uq4hu]

@@jjd2737exactly ❤

[@Brian0wns]

What if we remake Friends episodes and these guys are forced to share an apartment in 1990s NYC?

[@President_NotSure]

not enough land in the world to make that work

[@jimmylee9120]

​@@President_NotSurecause the pro Palestinians will always resort to violence first and play victim later😂

[@Norseraider84]

😂❤

[@mofishin2648]

Finklestien already has a hard time getting along with his neighbors, calling immigration and child services over noise complaints .. lol

[@MrMAXZ888]

Finkelstein would try to evict everyone.

[@orooropaa1846]

"I don't remember one occupation in which the occupier presented himself as the victim, we are the victims, we are forced to kill their children, poor us.” ~ Israeli journalist Gideon Levy

[@HankSemoreButz]

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Change my mind…

[@Input-vh7vu]

He modified Golda Meir' words.

[@BarcaHannibal]

On the contrary i remember many terrorist states, starting a war they couldnt finish and once they get their rear handed to them, they play the ultimate victim card.

[@isaacbenharush8027]

BTW... why Gideon Levy as a super lefty journalist do not give up on his condo and give it back to Arabs back ??? isn't he part of the occupation? You know ---> " Walk it as you talk it "

[@HankSemoreButz]

@@isaacbenharush8027 good point

[@nk-gp1ml]

Destiny should rename himself Density to better describe his intelligence level.

[@bayuprawitasari1894]

😂I was actually thinking of SpongeBob would be more appropriate for him

[@EcchiRevenge]

duplicity

[@funworld3433]

If they don't care about international law ,why do they ask for help from the international community to label hamas as a terrorist organization

[@bayuprawitasari1894]

It is called double standard hypocrisy

[@deanmcinerney2324]

Yes... there's also this odious idea that the difference between Israelis and diaspora Jews is that Israelis don't care what anybody thinks of them. Obviously there's lots of chauvinists there who genuinely don't care, but seriously, what a load of shit. Why then has Israel expended so much effort to cover everything up over the decades if that's the case.. The nation seems to have a narcissistic personality disorder.

[@danghoangluong2942]

Because international law apply on them but never applied on Gaza/Hamas. At this point, they sick and tired of that double standard. Honestly, they would be extremely happy if Gaza is treated as a non-state actor who waged war on them and they have every right to defend themselves from Gaza.

[@owaismattoo99]

Forget the law! Forget the independent report! Norman just calls it as it is. Israel is a pariah state!

[@isaac.anthony]

Norm is based!

[@dondiegodeazambuja9410]

Israel is not? What unbiased person would go through. The hoops cover ups simple fact that it bribed Britain so it can steal the lands of Palestinians?

[@Input-vh7vu]

😂😂😂 if you don't have any points of advantage from law or independent report you refuse them😂😂😂 Arabic style. Then don't refer to both items in other cases. Norman is de classed entirely. 😂😂

[@dfmrcv862]

To be a Pariah you have to be an outcast. Israel has the support of most of the free world. Norm is just an idiot.

[@samara6041]

💯💯💯

[@mohamedhany9535]

14:24 .. so now the formal qualification of genocide according to "international law" is considered, but when Finkelstein mentions law Benny Morris goes on to say "forget about law" .. hypocrites

[@isaacbenharush8027]

Do you comply with International Law ?

[@mohammadabuobayda447]

@@isaacbenharush8027Yes. In fact, armed resistxnce is completely permissible against occxpxtion and aparthxid under international law.

[@isaacbenharush8027]

@@mohammadabuobayda447 ... two qouestions: 1- By international Law am I allowed to respond to any violence that goes against any country? 2 - Is Hammas signed with International Law ... if not.. why? ... I mean they want recognition from the international community

[@mohammadabuobayda447]

@@isaacbenharush8027By international law means something that the UN already recognize as occupation or apartheid where you are subjected to ethnic cleansing and severe oppression (which the UN does in this case), you are recognized the right for armed resistance. Once the first is recognized you are permitted for the second regardless of who you are. What happens with Hxxmxs is only western double standards and rxcixsm, rights for me but not for thee. There are many examples of western colonialists labeling armed resxstxnce as txrrxxrism, for example, nelson mandela and george washington because it challenges their control. Many countries don't recognized Hxxmxs to be a txrrxxrist org. only the west who believes people can be ethnically cleansed, robbed, and killed and shouldn't do anything about it, but then talk and judge people because of HuMaN RiGhts.

[@helios9025]

Destiny and Benny Morris are not the same person???

[@akap_987]

Destiny is a joke! Why would he be even allowed in this group of educated men? It’s a disgrace to allow him to speak on such a serious issue when he knows absolutely nothing and has no maturity, grace or manners.

[@ultimateyagerman]

the lowtestiny fanboys wanted this and Lex wanted views. Simple as that

[@roxananazar2379]

Even jews who visited Gaza, had expressed their horror of how Israelis treat the Palestinians.

[@nesvidal9336]

Hate is born from the other's hate. Do not single out the israelis.

[@bigdaddy7729]

@@nesvidal9336born ??? They are the one who gave Jews homes when no one would ! How is that a hate ? Then they turn out (thankless and that’s why no one wanted them ) and killed , rape, and decimated the same people who opened the door to them . And nearly every Israeli settler school teaching hate 100x more than Arabs ever could . You all just can’t stop lying do ya ?

[@NoName-cu4gr]

@@nesvidal9336Who are the colonial imposter occupier, the land thief and the insufferable liar... the cognitive disonence of the zionist is incredible.

[@changstein]

@@nesvidal9336we should when its currently happening. shame on israel

[@nesvidal9336]

@austinwillis6776 , no wonder palestinians suffer more than the israelis. The more you hate, the more you suffer.

[@fluidvisions2787]

Destiny is the kind of guy that gets punched in the face for being himself.

[@realmo2009]

😂😂😂😂

[@napchill]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@husseinbonaud1883]

Everything about this guy is irresistibly punchable.

[@karimtarig88]

Agree 😂😂😂😂

[@husseinbonaud1883]

He is eminently punchable

[@faizana6091]

Bringing destiny on this makes this whole episode nonserious

[@syalem]

everytime this man opened his mouth was to cause chaos and disturb the discussion with the most unhinged talking points, thankfully most of the time he was mute, probably because he is way out of his depth, probably (btw he completely dismissed international analysis of the situation cuz he doesn't like professionals or something lol).

[@martinquinn3709]

he’s embarrassing

[@lievenyperman9363]

You mean mister Borelli?

[@astroflyinsights]

On purpose

[@OmEvul1415]

Fecalstain made everything chaotic.

[@faridacasmally1978]

Why does the Pro Israel side has such high temperatures issues when speaking, it is very hard to follow the young man, he should not be speaking if he has a problem with factual , he seem to want to win an argument by putting guess percentage, they are high trained players

[@derekgornall]

Uhhh.. the first 10 mins were Finklestein speaking frantically in high pitch

[@OrionBlaze]

watch the entire debate. Finkelstein called destiny a moron and dismissed him every time so at this point they were just tired of him

[@Moth-Grinder650]

I can tell you didn’t bother to watch the debate. This is the last 30 mins of the debate while Finklestein spent the first 4 throwing adhoms and misquoting Morris to his face.

[@dutchdario635]

In here it sure seems like that But if you watch the full debate It’s pretty obvious that that’s because Finkelstein was acting like an asshole for the entire debate before this

[@Devic13]

That's his style. He's an internet debatebro

[@Tygrus758]

"Forget about the law."

[@MysticWolf1223]

Literally their whole argument was, forget about the law and listen to our law.

[@anaesthesia1549]

@jjd2737 Without the UN and international law Israel is an illegitimate state.

[@PoeticAmmunition.]

​@@jjd2737 How much do they pay u

[@srrs7928]

@jjd2737 Dude, just give up. No one is reading all the crap you keep writing.

[@immortalnightbody]

@@jjd2737 No one cares bro. You sound brainwashed and no one cares about your world view. Maybe don't set up European Colonies on other people's land. You get what you get.

[@KemRoss]

Norman Finkelstein, you are debating with fools sir, no matter what you say they will giggle, they don't care what is right, they don't care about law, they don't care about human life.There is no hope.

[@youngscholarslibrary]

Norman is the fool. Why should I be affected by a war I have no part of due to the Houthis?

[@TNTspaz]

Are people just stupid on purpose? It takes two seconds to try and verify most of Finkelsteins claims and find out they are either false and purposefully malicious.

[@mikesweetwater3209]

@@youngscholarslibraryselfish brat. We should always stand up for people who are oppressed. Israel will pay one day! There will be justice! 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

[@KentBuchla]

Finkelstein doesn’t actually care about international law. He only asserts things when they are beneficial to the current moment.

[@madmonkeys88]

Just wondering, norm called his immigrant neighbors apes, and said that they should move to a zoo enclosure. Then he said he would toss them some bananas. Then he called child protective services on them, and the department of immigration. Then he stood in front of there door with a knife and a gun and started bashing the door. He was then arrested. What do you think of all that?

[@Kyle-hq2rm]

This debate is unwatchable because of Destiny.

[@Ali_Baalbakii]

hes a moron that's why

[@pudgywudgy7111]

He made a career from debating, not being a genuine intellect

[@olivetreelighthouse8659]

I don't know him, and I know that I don't want to hear him speak ever again. I only came to check the video because or Prof Finkelstein and Lex.

[@osagieagho7375]

​@@olivetreelighthouse8659 I tell you. It is absolutely draining hearing him talk. Seriously lex should have done better. You don't bring a dog to a lion stand off.

[@teardropsonmyfallen]

Are you fucking Delusional??? I can see you're Normie but Jesus

[@DriveandThrive]

6:20 how evil do you have to be when you say only two children have starved to death...

[@moffat5914]

Omg he didn't inflate numbers to stir up emotions how evil of him.

[@DriveandThrive]

@@moffat5914 2 children dying of starvation is more than enough. If that doesn't "stir" your emotions you're a monster

[@roykeane1922]

@@DriveandThrivewhen you are discussing rationality of war and military action, there has to be a level of emotional distance. This would be a pointless barbershop level discussion without an ability to do so.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

Listening would be a good thing for all adults to relearn.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

@@AdamDorfman82 I don't know these guys, heard of the destiny dude ... But what I'll tell you is calling someone a moron is ..... Practicing a very old, dead, psychological diagnosis that is unbecoming of a productive debate.

[@markool88]

@@AdamDorfman82 how do you know that 15000 dead are Hamas militants?

[@suuujuuus]

What did you say?

[@markool88]

@@AdamDorfman82 How do you know that 15000 Hamas militants are dead?

[@isaacbenharush8027]

@@TRYtoHELPyou if I understand you correctly if Destiny is a moron ... so Finkelstein is an idiot with a diploma !

[@samsonlovesyou]

"If you want to forget international law, then you have no right to complain about October 7th" *SILENCE* Boom! Check. Mate.

[@lahcinedaimin2926]

So don't cry when they are hiting you so hard. And don't beg us the Arab for help.. Booom...Booom .. ..

[@fazrul78]

​@@lahcinedaimin2926 they fight against Idf terrorist, arm settlers but Idf with full arm fighting civilian.. What the coward..

[@doesntmatter4136]

huh? they arent asking you to do anything, they handle their own problems

[@WeeklyTubeShow2]

If they dont have the floor, mute their mic.

[@biccpap]

Yo whats up remix

[@rfish67]

Bonnell and Morris interrupt constantly. They talk and talk, but they don't listen, because they assume they know it all already.

[@OrionBlaze]

did u watch the entire debate? they started talking over Finkelstein because he would talk on top of everybody all the time

[@kingmidas430]

Politics aside I watched the whole debate and it was not close who interrupted the most. Norm F. would talk over everyone and had to have Lex step in multiple times.

[@peterbluesman]

@@kingmidas430it’s not a competition about who interrupted, it’s about factuality and positioning, and respect for external sources, those supporting the Zionist cause refuse to accept that there is anything such as human rights or international law, suggesting it’s ok cause that is not how the world works. Yes, we know it is controlled by the powerful, by corruption ,wealth and greed, but is that really the kind of world we aspire to.

[@sirsaltysnell8367]

When a dude that speaks at 3 words per min, quoting people own books to them, while interrupting to not even answer any questions what do you think iis going to happen?

[@thefeverdream]

@@OrionBlaze I’m convinced these are all 14-year-olds that didn’t watch the debate

[@JustErics101]

Destiny isn’t wrong to ask about the metrics of famine/starvation but when 5-6 reports are all saying Palestinians suffer serious food insecurity problems, that should get you to stop and think. read the reports.

[@toddy914]

He just pointed out that having food security problems is NOT the same as having a rampaging famine/starvation in your population. What's the issue? Go check some pictures from Yemen or Ethiopia with children who has bloated stomachs, because they have such a severe nutrition deficiency in their fluids. That is an actual famine in progress.

[@elioredry]

He doesn’t say there isn’t food security… finkelstain just trying to compare it to starvation.. which he normally does the slippery serpent

[@TRWA77]

Cry more Jew hater

[@fat_man4578]

When a country controls the food amd the calories intake while also bom*ing civilians that want food , and has an official member saying to stop the food from entering then it's simple to see why

[@carokann4397]

​@elioredry these aren't finklesteins opinions, he's just reiterating the written record

[@aidoskashenov4532]

Mr bonabelli finalized his transition into full on white supremacist according to this video

[@xYouthAttackx]

Excuse him, he doesn't know the definition of Apartheid 😂

[@gofigure17]

Apartheid is a specific thing. It is a top-down system. Jim Crow was a defacto apartheid that happened in the American South. It was not federal policy.

[@chrisbeffa8890]

In Finkelstein's defense, they all at some point during this debate asserted that there was no hope. Benny Morris seemed especially pessimistic elsewhere in the debate.

[@broshawnjackson154]

Is the guy in the middle a moderator or on Israeli side?

[@chrisbeffa8890]

Lex? He's the moderator and host of this channel. My guess is he's a centrist on this issue with perhaps a slight Israel bias, but I don't think he's ever made his position crystal clear. He plays devil's advocate a lot and does a lot of bothsidesing so it's hard to say.@@broshawnjackson154

[@dondiegodeazambuja9410]

An Arab nation like turkey can resolve this. It just have to step in a commit some of its 1million troops to protect the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. If Israel attack, turkey activates article 5 of nato and ask them to step in . Let Israeli fight nato, or settle for a secular democratic state. Or move back to 67 borders and let the settlers fight it out with Turkish or Palestinian soldiers,

[@formulaic78]

@@broshawnjackson154 He's the moderator. Not sure which side he might lean towards. His reaction to Norman may be that he hopes this discussion can be productive, but Norman's take is sadly entirely correct.

[@broshawnjackson154]

@@formulaic78 ok

[@jimmyn9947]

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. Mark Twain.

[@Montezuma0]

Finkelstein is the biggest moron in this debate

[@notquitehim]

Why on earth is Destiny there?

[@olivetreelighthouse8659]

I don't know who he is. All I know now is that he's a racist and that listening to him I feel sick. So hopefully never again.

[@prashantjain9901]

i was wondering the same. May be to irritate everyone. You need a guy like him to get more views. Always the most irritating characters in the debate bring in more interest.

[@farahdeeba2993]

If I just cud give a thousand thumbs up.

[@omarnaga5936]

because shapiro was terrified to show up

[@hioctane9318]

Lex, this was a great debate. Really well moderated. But Destiny does not have the credentials to be be there with respect to the rest of the panel

[@xenaluck]

he is the average joe on the panel for what thats worth. stubborn af.

[@JackTheAverage]

Norm doesn't have the credentials either, he's a phony pop-historian who cannot engage with a single idea in this conversation.

[@JackTheAverage]

Finkelstein would make David Irving blush in the way that he conducts his pseudo academia

[@mofishin2648]

I keep seeing these comments but none of them point to examples where Destiny was out of his depth. Benny, the actual historian agreed with all of his points. Meanwhile everyone on the other side is just impressed with Norm calling him names but not being able to refute his points ..

[@guidingdads]

Credentials does not imply justification of merit on a cause or subject. Idiot ​@@JackTheAverage

[@Thunder2823]

3:00-4:00 was devastating “What every Israeli fears the most…the law”

[@rodolpheraymond]

Benny is intellectually dishonest for not going against Destiny when he hits the treshold of complete imbecilities

[@moffat5914]

Benny literally backed up every point destiny made you total dunce😂 he spent most of the time laughing at norm behaviour like a child

[@rodolpheraymond]

well that's what I'm saying innit?@@moffat5914

[@StraightAhead135]

@@moffat5914and benny morris looked ridiculous for backing him up

[@morahman5496]

Destiny is a fool why is 😂he in this conversation

[@Chalk89]

Did Lex give the fourth seat (Destiny’s) to the highest bidder?

[@undercoveragent9889]

Lex was hoping to co-opt Destiny's celebrity to increase support for genocide.

[@Kamfrenchie]

@@undercoveragent9889 what genocide ?

[@broshawnjackson154]

​@@Kamfrenchiethe one they showing you everyday. Man something is clearly wrong with you.

[@idontwantcorporateretaliat6301]

that PAC paid top dollar for Mr. Botticelli

[@undercoveragent9889]

@@Kamfrenchie And it worked, I see.

[@leninswalrus]

12:32 talking about the gravest condemnation delivered in the most civil way possible.

[@mouwafakchourbagui8296]

We've reached the point of having a pro-genocide vs anti-genocide debate. Bravo humanity

[@phirephly4588]

That’s the sticking point. No agreement on the meaning of genocide in this case.

[@EzDoesntExist]

That kid should’ve stayed home it is offensive for pro-israel more than anything

[@leithsapitan1428]

Standing with Israel! You shut up.

[@gorgioarmanioso151]

ahha Mr. Brocolli is debating people that are far too smart for him.

[@Trickyksa]

​@leithsapitan1428 So when you go to a theatre do people like you confuse Darth Vader and think he is the good guy ?!

[@leithsapitan1428]

@@Trickyksa when you go to Gaza to celebrate pride month do you get thrown off buildings?

[@gerontion1011]

@@leithsapitan1428 Who asked lol

[@ironknightgaming5706]

Norman demolished Destiny.

[@corneliusattenborough3935]

How?

[@Prometheus70747]

😅​@@corneliusattenborough3935

[@AlexAlex-xy9vb]

Not at all. Finkelstein was properly called out on his dishonesty. He always cites to international law but then ignore international law if it doesn’t suit him. He’s a fraud and always has been.

[@HopeForPeave]

@@corneliusattenborough3935how didnt he?

[@wesrichmond]

@@corneliusattenborough3935 By every metric possible.

[@billroberts6797]

Hey Lex, don't you know how to moderate a debate? Important rule for debate, "instruct debaters not to interupt each other!"

[@ineedscissors6176]

He only ever did that with Norm despite others doing the same shit, Lex showed no moderating chops whatsoever and clearly was biased towards Morris/“Destiny.”

[@JamesGodfrey-zn9fs]

Lex took a side so he obviously wouldn’t moderate a debate if its advantage to his own views

[@MalcolmFather]

He literally invited them to interrupt each other in the first 20-30 mins of the debate. Horrible decision.

[@___Anakin.Skywalker]

Shame on Benny Morris Norm buried him for being a simpleton though.

[@Cécile-v3m]

Gaza is not a neighbour, it is an imprisoned neighbour.

[@nawaf9948]

8:02 i hate when people throw this shit to irretate the other guy . it gives me a clear picture that this guy doesn't want to debate

[@itayr15]

because norm didn't answer anything, pathetic, it's his entire justfication for october 7 which already crazy, but he doesn't even know anything about the justification he uses for terror, actually insane

[@novastanswhitneyhouston]

Calling him a 'fantastic moron" and dodging the arguement while he presented a perfectly valid arguement anout the intent of genocide is worse.

[@brp01234]

@@novastanswhitneyhoustonsaying "take Gaza down is not genocidal because taking Russia isn't genocidal" is assinine By that logic when Iran says "death to America death to Israel" is not genocidal. Do you realize how stupid destiny is? And why norman tried so hard to ignore him? If a dog barks at you do you bark back ?

[@KlausMosh]

​@@novastanswhitneyhoustonprefectly valid argument like nuking 2 million people isnt genocide?

[@gh0st409]

Destiny is such a weasel

[@The42n8s1]

Yeah, he's awful here. Completely out of his league.

[@iiCodMasterHD]

It’s crazy how he thinks he’s an intellectual

[@TheLastEmperorXiXinPig]

@@The42n8s1 This isn't complex math or physics, this is desert people throwing rocks at each other.

[@Rebelconformist82]

I thought exactly the same. Right little brat

[@onlyicedcrybaby7297]

Fink is literally pro houthi here and your brain thinks destiny is detestable?

[@BuffyandClyro]

What is Destiny doing a part of this conversation? What could he possibly contribute?

[@DrOSami]

"Forget the law, forget the UN, forget independent, take only my word, trust me bro"

[@crunkalac]

Forget your eyes as well don't forget

[@mahaaboulela]

Thank you Mouin Rabbani, thank you Norman Finkelstein.

[@srrs7928]

"I'm not happy to say that" "-Of course you are" Tells you everything you need to know about mr borrelli.

[@Kamfrenchie]

Well no, Finkelstein is just a massive fraud

[@dfmrcv862]

That he speaks the truth given how Norm reacted to October 7?

[@Letsplay222]

It was a pretty low thing to say. Far worse than name calling.

[@mickeyg9020]

You gotta admit tho. Norm has profited a lot off this conflict 😂 ​@@Letsplay222

[@lololounge8281]

That was actually a legitimately disgusting thing to say to any person.

[@cheesy132]

I used to enjoy reading books by Benny Morris. This interview has helped me lose all respect for him.

[@anne1068]

Given the number of children who have died, either they are being targeted by the IDF or the IDF keeps missing their target. Facts are facts. The truth will come out eventually, probably sooner rather than later thanks to social media

[@raivolution]

Well if you popping out 5 kids a women, the Israelies are helping them.

[@1Deep43VA]

Why is Destiny there?

[@Superbluegiant]

Idk your mom just randomly dropped him off

[@1Deep43VA]

@@Superbluegiant ooOOOoo… someone’s knickers are in a bunch. Let me guess; he’s your favorite content creator? I know this may be your shining moment to defend him online, but it’s actually a relatively common thought, as he’s the odd man out here. And don’t worry, I know the answer. He’s there because he’s Lex’s friend. He just shouldn’t be.

[@Superbluegiant]

@@1Deep43VAno really your mom went to the studio and somehow convinced Lex

[@1Deep43VA]

@@Superbluegiant Oh… someone’s gonna double down. So cute. What else did she do? Really use your imagination

[@PoeticAmmunition.]

​@@Superbluegiant Are u 12

[@michaelmiller6878]

If these supposed experts/intellectuals can’t do anything but argue and yell at each other through a 5 hour debate, how are we to believe there is any hope of this ever being resolved? Proof that there are limitations to Lex’s theory that people sitting down and talking will provide a solution.

[@raaid85]

no this is for us to.learn. and i learned that israel.is an illegal occupier and an apartheid state committing a genocide and all that is not an opinion. the only reason for no solution is western complicity and backing

[@Ph3nom1998]

I feel like Destiny being there reduced the quality of the whole debate significantly. The lack of respect towards him is obvious, even from Benny. And I’m saying that as somebody who is more familiar with Destiny than the other men at the table.

[@The_ScapeGoat]

This debate is about 2 groups of people who openly want to exterminate and genocide each other. Both sides are over represented with liars and bad faith propagandists. I feel sorry for the children born into this situation because they truly are innocent.

[@undercoveragent9889]

Lex is only interested in drumming up support for genocide.

[@immortalnightbody]

Lex is an idiotic centerist whose view would fall apart at the first sign of personal strife, I promise you.

[@coder001]

How do you reason with someone who says forget about the law, the international court, the human rights groups, apparently the only thing that matters is power and force to get what you want. In a way they’ve become brats like a child who always gets what they want, they grow up offended by everything and ashamed of nothing.

[@djpaulcfunkeddub3951]

"Isreali's and only Israelis can investigate Israel's international crimes against humanity, war & war crimes because they will do it best"

[@gumbygreen14]

Lex went into this wanting to defend IDF, but even he couldn’t help but acknowledge Finkelstein’s valid points

[@gombosandrei]

I agree there is no hope for Fienklstien to get Destiny's name right.

[@user-ys4og2vv8k]

No hope for you to write Finkelstein's name right...

[@Christian-ry3ol]

None for you to get Finkelstein's name right too.

[@theredgoblin562]

You used his internet name no one cares to remember that shit

[@BluesSky]

It’s not because he doesn’t know, it’s a direct insult and it’s hilarious quite frankly.

[@farahdeeba2993]

It’s simply not worthy

[@spartacusforlife1508]

By what metric are Palestinians starving? Was that question asked of jews in nazi concentration camps?

[@mikiafu]

While the Sudanense prosecuted by the Arabs have been starving and no public uproar.

[@spartacusforlife1508]

@@mikiafu using your logic we shouldn't have had the Nurembourg trials because Turkey wasn't prosecuted for the genocide of the Armenians

[@mikiafu]

@@spartacusforlife1508 why?

[@garvinwalker9093]

I think Density could be honest and acknowledge that this particular discussion was a bit too complex for him & he was ill-equipped to sit with these guys.

[@autonomousindividual7780]

I find the gay guy very rude and way out of his league. He's there as some sort of actor furthering an agenda. Really believes in the talk-over technique. If you watch carefully you can see they (he and his partner) place no value on Palestinian life. They deflect whenever you get them in a tough spot.

[@Mr.BigCog]

That's crazy, bro.

[@Jadbgjoka]

I literally thought you were talking about Finklestein until the end lol

[@uchennaabosi7651]

He doesn't care for any life apart from his own.

[@mikes6962]

Don’t think this is true whatsoever lol. Also why just talk out of your ass? He’s some sort of actor? He’s been a popular streamer and figure for the last 15 years lol. It’s not like he’s some hidden actor who randomly popped up.

[@autonomousindividual7780]

The use of "actor" can apply to more than just celebrities. I fully realize he's not a member of the screen actors guild. Probably never been on the red carpet.A popular streamer actually makes the point. They're are being offered, and taking, money to support Israel. Finklestein has little else but destroy himself by courageously fighting this cause. He has nothing to lose because he lost it all long ago. @@mikes6962

[@RyanFagan_RealEstate]

This convo is a mess

[@carefulcarpenter]

"TRUTH is context-driven; deceit is agenda-driven; those not interested in accurate evidence are not interested in truth." cc. 2020 Note: It appears that YT is treating the text window like the Gaza Strip.

[@kevindonnelly8235]

Destiny is a horrific human

[@smith46695]

Explain?

[@backwardthoughts1022]

neocon gamer educated on glenn beck.

[@Godfrey544]

@@backwardthoughts1022 ins't he progressive?

[@davidchristenes9062]

​@@Godfrey544The guy did 6h defence on a genocide. Progressive??

[@Godfrey544]

@@davidchristenes9062 wouldn't be the first time. But Destiny is in fact yes a progressive.

[@LoraHC]

7:25 Did he seriously just ask him to explain the metrics used by various sources to quantize famine or starvation? What does he want? A blackboard presentation with the equations and data samples? The sophistry of this dude if off-the-charts... He will literally single out anything that will put his opponent into a defensive position and hence make him "win" the argument. It's so infantile that it makes me wanna vomit -_-

[@Italiana71]

8:02 I can no longer take anything Destiny says seriously. +1 million displaced people didn’t pack for a 5+ months picnic! Humanitarian aid has been insufficient most times and blocked; fact. (For argument sake, the who and why is irrelevant to that fact) How Destiny can deny that Gazans “are on the verge of famine”, is inconceivable to me.

[@afarro]

The guy next to Destiny looks like his lawyer ..😅

[@Harlem1mentality]

14:20 Jim Crow was definitely apartheid! South Africa came to the United States and basically took notes and improved the methodology of racism. Segregation was a law based on race. Red lining the same thing these were laws targeting one group of people

[@okyes5671]

Sorry but it wasn’t. Jim Crow was not us federal government policy so can’t be considered apartheid

[@david300m]

Lex must have a bottle of whiskey under the desk. I would.

[@mtzmechengr5781]

Palestinian people have been miraculous in their courage, resistance, and bravery while facing one of the most brutal but also cowardly oppressors in modern history

[@mikesweetwater3209]

Well said ♥️🇵🇸

[@charliebarton]

At any point in this does anyone ever talk about how or why it's in America's interest and the interest of European nations to support Israel? Israel, right or wrong? Who gives a damn. If it weren't for western / American support that country would have folded during the Nixon admin.

[@olivetreelighthouse8659]

RFK Jr. said in a video Israel is very important because of the regions' oil. He's worried about who will control all that oil if Israel disappeared. So, to those politicians, Palestinians can be exterminated as long as they can keep their control over the Middle East.

[@BluesSky]

Israel and Saudi Arabia, really creations of British Intelligence BP.

[@proceduralism376]

It is in American interest to support Israel because it's an American state in a resource rich area. The Europeans are still under American influence, they were since the Marshall plan.

[@bocchithean-cap3404]

Israel had nukes by Nixons admin Finkel supporters once again proving themselves illiterate

[@danghoangluong2942]

It wouldn't. It had nuclear weapons

[@notanemoprog]

Best thumbnail ever😵‍💫

[@gh0st409]

You clicked

[@notanemoprog]

Of course@@gh0st409

[@GulDukat479]

The thumbnail captures my feeling listening to Finklestein perfectly

[@Andyyyk47]

I find it quite disrespectful towards Lex's invited guest, Finkelstein, especially given the fact that Destiny and his army of losers have been trolling Finkelstein ever since this aired.

[@mofishin2648]

@@Andyyyk47 I don't like to hear about trolling but it's kind of hard to feel bad for Finklestien after the way he treated his actual neighbors calling immigration and child services as well as many threatening letters and improper use of a hammer on their door over noise complaints.

[@calebleforte9176]

what's wrong with destiny's beard lol

[@NickQuinn1986]

As much as I love Lex as a human being he’s pretty terrible at managing the space. Zero intervention

[@sharshabiel]

The time for discourse must come to an end. One can’t have a rational conversation with someone irrational.

[@משהכן-ש3ח]

As an Israeil, I am ashamed and embarassed by the blabber and double standarts exhibited by Dr. Morris in this debate.

[@zahrahnicholls4711]

Norman is a great educated man, the world is benefiting alot from his knowledge.

[@Letsplay222]

I find it fascinating how important it is to Borelli and Morris for everyone to agree that Palestinians killed all or or almost all of the civilians on October 7th. It so important for the Palestinians to be the most monstrous attackers and the Israelis the most competent defenders because if that is not the case it makes the IDF's actions since October 7th more difficult to justify. Hamas have to be illogical comic book villains or Israel's actions are wrong.

[@Liberta-ls6xw]

How to take LEX seriously when his focus is on advertising for corporate interests. Shows who’s his boss

[@akymny]

As a Yemeni and am not Houthi, i totally support them standing with Gaza ... The Palestinian issue comes before any Yemeni Issues

[@crunkalac]

Infants dying, and then Benny moves the goal posts. THAT'S DISGUSTING.

[@habmann]

Such a dumb question! "By what matric are they starving?" Lol. Destiny is looking for a "metric" in order to consider starvation is lethal. smh

[@aidoskashenov4532]

Mr bobachafutti learned the difference between netanyahu and erdogan 2 month ago so he is fully qualified to defend zionism

[@Superbluegiant]

According to your mother he is fully qualified

[@vanessac1965]

Watching Zionists argue for Israel reminds me of how my narcissistic ex would argue. Deflection, gaslighting, denial, whataboutism, guilt tripping, victimhood. You can be a lawyer for hours and get not a single bit of accountability or admission from them.

[@okyes5671]

Hahaha. Lmao projection much? Accusing one side of being wholly evil and never accepting any responsibility or faults while literally doing the same thing yourself? Palestinian hypocrisy at its finest.

[@clorofilaazul]

I'm sorry, Lex, but I can't listen to this. A woke guy trying to be smarter than Finkelstein? Come on... You, Lex, should have moderated more this debate. And why the hell did you bring Destiny to debate Finkelstein? Come on, Lex. You should know better.

[@deanmcinerney2324]

Destiny is here because undoubtedly Destiny proposed this to Lex, set it up and figured himself in. Destiny is ruined by the debate bro culture, which is largely about not shutting up, bamboozling by talking fast and playing gotcha. I am glad Norm put him in his place to be honest.

[@rajatank2023]

i know this is a serious debate involving civilian deaths but at 0:33 after norman said theres no hope and destiny said "of course you are" Normans reaction was hilarious i cant stop laughing

[@backwardthoughts1022]

destiny pouting directly afterwards as all the adults in the room cringe is honestly funnier

[@okyes5671]

Norm called him a moron like 20 times

[@meistereder9135]

​@okyes5671which he is

[@jimmyn9947]

Engaging with the fools in their argument of ignorance or manipulation, you'll eventually be drawn into stooping to the mocker's level and behaving foolishly yourself. Therefore, do yourself a favor and pity the fools but avoid the pointless argument. By wiseman

[@rexsauce]

"if they nuke gaza and kill 2 million people idk if that qualifies as apartheid" - mr. borelli

[@KOZ-k1p]

My God the top Israeli historian is shrinking from his lack of any logical legal moral judgement

[@seanpenfold4374]

Wow what a disgusting human being Destiny is, 'by what metric are the Gazan's dying of famine', unbelievable.

[@bdbusiness7896]

Destiny is completely out of his depth. Why is he even there?

[@3rdCoastAlliance]

Nearly every video featuring Destiny on Lex's channel, gets over 1M views.

[@Stable_Genius]

​@@3rdCoastAllianceThat doesn't answer the question.

[@3rdCoastAlliance]

@@Stable_Genius Fair enough. I'm my perspective, Destiny is here because he represents the common layperson who takes it upon himself to do research about a geopolitical issue before adopting any strong beliefs. Whether you or disagree with his position as of right now, I'd be careful to callously dismiss him because he's a non-scholar on the subject. He represents hundreds of millions of non-stakeholders who started off sympathetic to Palestinians (and remain sympathetic) but acknowledges that their support for Hamas as a liberating engine is untenable.

[@Stable_Genius]

@@3rdCoastAlliance The other 3 individuals with Steven at that desk have decades of experience reading/researching this topic. Steven spent what, a few days trying to prepare? He came off as weasely little troll who was completely out of his element. I can appreciate Steven trying to learn as much as he could, but this wasn't the place for him. Steven and Vaush, for example, would have made more sense.

[@3rdCoastAlliance]

@@Stable_Genius Stephen spent about 3 months researching the topic. I'm aware of the credentials of everyone else at the table, but I don't see an issue with him being there. If Stephen is so remarkably out of his depth, then the questions he raised could have been answered easily; but some of them weren't. When you observe Mr. Morris (his debate partner and most knowledgeable person there), he didn't correct Stephen, not even once. Stephen was on his good behavior UNTIL Finkelstein repeatedly called him names. Even Mouin Rabbani (Norman's debate partner) was trying to reel Norman in because he tilted so hard.

[@Persistentdreamer91]

“Destiny” having a Starbucks coffee on the table… enough said 😒

[@azalia423]

Indeed, Mouin Rabbani held himself above Benny Morris and Steven Bonnell, maintaining sense and humanity, leaving them sputtering, growing more shrill and vicious.

[@aucontraire593]

Norm: "There's no hope, and I'm not happy about that" Destiny: "Of course you are!" 😅

[@questionable-ethics]

I think I would have enjoyed a debate between mouin and Benny. I feel they could have sat for hours and it would have been civil, while both offering measured takes on the topic.

[@thin_individual]

I'm still waiting for a sound argument for why we should not take any UN, amnesty international or humna rights organisations' assessment of the sitauation. Seems like just ignorance to me