NTSB Board Meeting: Amtrak Passenger Train 501 Derailment, DuPont, Washington, December 18, 2017

[@othername1000]

Break ends, meeting resumes at 2:03:47 Another break ends, meeting re- resumes at 3:16:00

[@AEP817]

Would be nice if @NTSB provided the break end time stamps in the video description.

[@Bellman84]

I want to see the forward camera.

[@jaysmith1408]

Another common denominator is a poorly designed rail network that inserts unnecessary, inconvenient, and unusually slow for the territory, curves, in higher speed railways. Try putting a stop sign in the middle of I-80 in Odessa, Nebraska. You tell me one driver who would expect that, see it coming, or even remember it after being told about it.

[@yanDeriction]

Interstates are designed to specific standards, which is why you won't see stop signs on any road marked an Interstate (with few exceptions). Of course, any disruptions to freeway standards on a road are will announced with multiple signs, usually to the effect of "traffic light/stop sign ahead" or "freeway ends". The problem with the "unnecessary" curves is that they are actually necessary. Rail - especially passenger rail in the US - simply doesn't experience enough volume to justify high quality infrastructure. Acquiring the right of way (land) needed to maintain 80mph all the way, and building long overpasses (that have to be high if built over an interstate) - is really expensive, especially in a coastal state like washington.

[@jaysmith1408]

Very good, then i’ll bite. If per timetable, this only saves ten minutes (if i’m not mistaken, almost exclusively due to drawbridges and traffic), why put forth the millions to halfass an upgrade of a subdivision. to upgrade speeds to 79 mph, for only a couple consecutive miles at a time, but omit a key piece of infrastructure right smack dab in the middle of the racetrack? Either upgrade the line, and get a couple more minutes of time saving speed, or stick to what i’m sure is the only real time savings, and that’s distance and traffic savings alone? I’m sure having the line down at a continuous class 3 level, opposed to the class 4, would have saved millions, cost seconds, and omitted a 50 mph speed drop.

[@AEP817]

The land on either side of the railroad/interstate in this area is part of a military installation. There may be stand off requirements for easements through the base. You wouldn’t want the public too close to a ammunition bunker, etc. This line was also upgraded if memory serves to get Amtrak’s trains off of a section of the BNSF mainline.

[@EricHallahan]

Dedicated passenger rail is effectively non-existent in the United States. Almost all rail used for passenger service is owned by host railways; Union Pacific, BNSF, etcétera. There is a small section of track owned by Amtrak: The Northeast Corridor offers service between Boston and Washington, DC. The rail is designed for much slower freight service everywhere else, because freight really doesn’t care how fast it goes. Even in the Northeast Corridor, development in the area effectively makes upgrading rail impossible.

[@AtTheCrossingProductions]

This is what happens when safety systems such as Positive Train Control aren't installed to high speed rail, and big entities like Amtrak don't train their crews properly. I saw them train the crews in the middle of the night, that never should've happened. And the engineer had never been inside an SC-44 locomotive, only F59PHi's, NPCU's, and P42DC's. Had the NPCU from the night before not been swapped from that side of the set, this may not have happened. He wasnt familiar with the new Siemens gauges, and the giant sides of the SC-44's prevent some sight of a speed sign. This was ridiculous.

[@planck39]

It goes a little to far but Shinkansen Engineers must confirm that they've seen signs/warnings by handsignal by pointing to the sign or warning.

[@sylviaelse5086]

I don't know why train systems are still permitted to depend on the driver knowing where they are and going at the required speed. Technology to handle this is well established.

[@wasatchrangerailway6921]

It's called corporate greed----if the railroad could, and get away with it, they would pay their crews in chicken feed. They've already turned helper crews and yard engineers into black boxes! It's just a matter of time until there are no human crews at all. Once PTC comes on line, all human crews will be gone!!!

[@dknowles60]

at 129k per year i expect the over paid engineer to know where he is at at all times

[@sylviaelse5086]

@@dknowles60 It's desirable, but it clearly doesn't always work.

[@GH-oi2jf]

Technology which would have prevented this crash has been around for about 50 years, and has been installed in some places in the NE. I don’t mean Full-blown, computerized PTC. All that is required is a transponder in the track bed at critical points, and locomotives which can query and receive data from the transponder and act on it to reduce speed or apply brakes.

[@apollosaturn5]

I think the problem with GPS is that trains go through territories that do not have satellite coverage, and to establish satellite coverage in those territories will be very expensive. Cell phone navigation works by using cell phone towers. What would be more expensive, to install direct satellite communication in the locomotives or to build cellphone-type towers along the routes?

[@AaronShenghao]

Civilian GPS is also not that accurate (+- 1m) and subject to buildings and trees that isn’t a problem with planes. (Even clouds can increase error). Biggest problem is GPS does not provide instantaneous speed, meaning you can only get reliable speed when distance is already traveled (ideally greater of error range). Say error is 2-3 meters, you have to travel almost 20-30m to get your speed error down to 10-20%. That’s a problem and that is why phone speedometer seems slow to update/respond.

[@randomsanwhich2]

I thought locomotives are to correct an issue without engineers input especially in a safety issue. Why didnt the locomotive intiate emergency braking after the overspeed and no input after a certain amount of time. Also with technology today, why didnt the locomotive give an alert of an approaching reduced speed zone ahead ???

[@Kromaatikse]

You're talking about Positive Train Control. This is covered extensively in the proceedings and the report.

[@randomsanwhich2]

Yea I spoke too soon.

[@stuartadamsrailfanningvideos]

I know the engineer that was operating the train that day. One of my co-workers was injured. I also know 2 people that were killed. I work on a heritage railroad in Oregon.

[@othername1000]

Surely a massive government agency staffed by such distinguished professionals (many with PhDs) would be able, if willing, to edit out the frickin breaks.

[@AEP817]

Could be part of the wording of the sunshine act, they have to show the unedited meeting?

[@Tindometari]

@@AEP817 I believe it is a Sunshine matter, and iirc, I believe the reason why they're required to record the breaks is to eliminate the chance that someone might forget to turn it back on for the second half. What I don't know is whether that's in the text of the act, a judicial interpretation, or a prudent policy.

[@phillipkalaveras1725]

PTC is just a money grab and is used here as a cop-out. Creating an overly complicated system from scratch by people who have no experience instead of adapting a proven system that works and has been in both civilian and military use for years. I'm speaking of Garmin Ltd who has extensive experience integrating their systems into Automotive Aviation and Marine and could have easily and for a fraction of the money already spent adapted it for locomotives. PTC was mandated in 2008 and was supposed to be up and running by 2015 a date Garmen could have easily met. It is now 2020 and they hope to start testing the whole system at the end of this year. A multitude of systems all built by different agencies departments and contractors will all come together late this year and perform flawlessly... NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! If the whole thing is not scraped it will be at least another 5 years. You-know if the Engineer of Amtrak Passenger Train 501 had a $50 Garmen Nuvi in the cab this crash would not have happened.

[@GH-oi2jf]

The way PTC has been interpreted in recent years is over complicated, and it has led to delay in implementing safety measures. All that was required to prevent this crash was a passive transponder at a critical point in the trackbed and a system to read it in the locomotive.

[@seanmerritt3070]

I really do enjoy watching these board meetings but it makes me mental that Member Homendy talks down and is extremely rude to the staff. I understand the reason she is asking these questions but she acts like her children just stole something from her purse.

[@culleyderouin7434]

What I wanna know is why is Amtrak still in business?

[@luawoofe3558]

as a service to people who live in rural areas

[@apollosaturn5]

As a business, Amtrak would had bankrupted a loooooong time ago. But, it's kept alive by Congress. As Lua Woofe said, as a service to people, especially in rural areas. Although, I heard that Amtrak might replace their train service with busses in some rural areas.

[@kelleybrown1666]

You guys make public transport safer and more reliable. Thanks.

[@EricHallahan]

Member Homendy seems to be overly aggressive when questioning, seemingly preferring to point blame (something Chairman Sumwalt continues to reiterate is not the purpose or job of the NTSB) and introducing evidence for discussion than to actually ask questions. Her lawyer-like stance was, in my opinion, hindering to the discussion.

[@jefflewis4]

Eric Hallahan: That's not unusual for these sunrise meetings especially when there is loss of life. Sumwalt gets that way in some meetings as well. The have to be a little confrontational with the staff to flesh out details that might otherwise not make int into the final report. Bear in mind, they usually meet and discuss items with the staff before this actual meeting occurs so they have an idea what items need to be pressed a bit in the meeting.

[@EricHallahan]

jefflewis4 This is the first time I had seen this behavior, so I did not know if it was common or not. Thanks for the perspective.

[@AEP817]

@NTSB Ive ridden on a few Amtrak trains (Cardinal, Northeast Regional, Silver Meteor, Pennsylvanian and Crescent). my iPhone moving map display works about 60% of the time I am on the train. Trains run through areas where there are no signal for my phone. Between DC and Atlanta I was without accurate location services south of Charlotte, NC. In WVa its even worse.

[@AEP817]

SNLTheOffice There is a huge difference between being 1000ft+ above ground or being on the open ocean and having a moving map display on the ground where you may or may not have sufficient LOS to enough GPS satellites (its not just tunnels) a mountain valley and other line-side structures can cause similar issues. A railroad specific moving map display will need more resolution than your iPad or iPhone that works for an airplane. My iPhones map doesn’t provide accurate railroad location information (long abandoned lines are indicated, curves don’t exactly match etc). Waze is a little better, but the software automatically causes it to move me to roads. Its not like you can go buy a GPS device off the shelf and stick it in the locomotive. The software has to be written, track speeds would have to be programmed in, and it would probably be highly beneficial to cross-link it with PTC. All Im saying is that it’s disingenuous to imply oh you can just buy this off the shelf and it will work just fine.

[@GH-oi2jf]

A wide area network is not needed to prevent crashes of this type. All that is needed is a transponder in the trackbed and a system in the locomotive to read data from the transponder and act on it. The technology has existed for fifty years.