OH DEAR! TIMING CHAIN CHECK [BMW N47 Timing Chain Noise and PicoScope 2204A] | Mechanic Mindset

[@jimjam1934]

Great video Darren, I've just carried this test following the video to check my wife's 318D with the N47 engine. We bought the car in 2013 with 88K miles and full BMW history and for piece of mind I changed the chains myself. The car is now on 175K and has had oil changes every 10K. Having done the test with the advanced triggers, the cam/crank correlation remains perfectly still, only difference between my engine and yours after the chain change is 7.1ms to the camshaft falling edge compared to your 6.4ms. I'm reassured that I don't need to do the job again yet and will keep to the 10Koil changes. Keep up the good work, you explain things so well.

[@MechanicMindset]

Good to know! Yes, I have also seen a varying space for the falling edge on these engines; not sure how to explain it yet. Couple degrees shouldn’t be too much of a problem. Glad you’re enjoying the channel 👍

[@mechanicmatt871]

Glad you demonstrated the advanced trigger setting, I haven't used it. An effective way to show cam/crank fluctuations, thanks mate

[@MechanicMindset]

Mechanic Matt It’s a nice feature right?! Been waiting for a chance to use it in anger 👍

[@DJ-tn7vj]

Bro you are killing me with the videos. I wanna sleep but can't stop watching your videos.lol. really like how you explain in detail. If you start an online class.im there

[@MechanicMindset]

Stay tuned; something in the pipe line. Click the link for the waveforms and enter your email, I will send out info nearer the time. Thanks for the feedback and glad you’re enjoying the channel! 👍

[@reynardbizzar5461]

Hello Sir. Yes I now see it’s not a 2020. Silly me. I’ve got a noisy chain on a 2006 318 with only 70000 miles. Enjoy your channel. Thanks.

[@nightkin8308]

Awesome work never knew about the advanced trigger will definitely make life bit more easier

[@MechanicMindset]

It really is a great feature. Especially having only 2 channels. Thanks for watching 👍

[@TheGibby3340]

Clever application of that trigger mode setting. To be honest I was completely unaware of that mode and its usage. Thx...Great Vid

[@MechanicMindset]

TheGibby3340 Good isn’t it!? 👍 2204A 💪

[@J.T672]

Great video Darren , my friend got the same engine with timing chain snapped at 38000 miles . BMW are going pick up most of the costs. This engine had all recommend services aswell .

[@MechanicMindset]

Glad you enjoyed the video! Yes BMW will pay for it on goodwill for qualifying owners. How crazy right? 38000miles!! What model and year is the car?

[@chrisbullen4317]

Brilliant video!! I wonder where I might be able to find a good wave form for an M57 engine

[@frankyv5999]

can't get enough of your vids.i learn soo much from it and how to get the best out of this 200 series scope. thank you very much

[@MechanicMindset]

Glad to hear it! It really is an awesome tool. Do you own one?

[@frankyv5999]

@@MechanicMindset i wish. I'm in the process of buying one hopefully by the end of next mont. however, i own a hantek 1008 but it isn't as fun as a pico.

[@motormind4788]

Fantastic, you showed me another little trick for my Pico! Very handy keep up the fantastic videos mate.

[@MechanicMindset]

Glad you enjoyed it - cool feature right?!!

[@motormind4788]

@@MechanicMindset ya it is. I have seen that menu but i have not had that much time to play with the Scope lately and learn all the features. I am hoping to get a bit of time soon to realy get to know my.little scope and have a vehicle i can test things out on. It is the best way to learn these things i think.

[@signummotors]

Thanks for the video, chain on my 520D F11 is quiet and being made after 01/03/2011 it should be on the 'safer' side, but was thinking about ways of checking it without dismantling - and found your video. Again, I was planning to get an oscilloscope for my Autel for some time, but you've convinced me to get the Pico. Will get one sorted next week. Thanks for the advice! I hate the approach of just throwing money at cars when they don't really need it, upgrading toolkit will help me to get better at diagnosing things more accurately, it was always on that 'someday' list.

[@MechanicMindset]

Music to my ears! Great way to keep learning too 👍

[@freakvan911]

great vid!!! great stuff darren!!! ive been using pico for a few years. scanner danner stuff is really good. but your stuff (advanced trigger settings ) awesome mate!!! keep um coming thanks!!!!

[@MechanicMindset]

Happy it’s helped! Yeah the PicoScope is a great tool; so much more to explore and you can get quite creative with some of the settings. Thanks for watching and the great feedback 👍

[@radoslavivanov9353]

Great video, thank you!!! I'm learning now with pico2206b, today I recieve ht201 and ht30a, pico2206b has good price on amazon last weeks.

[@MechanicMindset]

Cool, yeah 2206b is a bit more powerful. You will probably have a better zoom function than I have with 2204a. Hope you have fun with it!👍

[@radoslavivanov9353]

@@MechanicMindset Today I've tested BMW N45T with your method, the timing chain was OK, 2 signals are almost at the same position. And yes, the zoom function is great.

[@alrifainidal]

well done Matt. nice trigger setting i am glad you show me this . i was need it very bad because i have the same picoscope you have . pleas keep going and i am waiting to see after fix . best wishes

[@MechanicMindset]

Thanks Nidal, glad you are enjoying the videos, more to come. PS, I’m Darren, easy to maybe mistake me with Mechanic Matt 😂👍

[@alrifainidal]

i am exciting to see more . thank you very much i enjoying watching your videos best wishes

[@SamBrown-yk8py]

You can hear the rhythmical ticking sound occasionally - like a metronome.

[@J.T672]

Hi Darren , it's a 65 plate mini paceman with the timing chain failure . The car you demonstrated in your video , my colleague actually as that same car with the chain rattle, especially when cold . I'm a Toyota tech and we used in some toyota models ,1.6 ww and 2.0 ww diesel engine, which are actually made by BMW. Toyota recalled these vehicles for update, so if the chained stretched it would bring engine light on . I think bmw should do the same and take some responsibility .

[@MechanicMindset]

Ah ok, I think when other manufacturers supply engines they would usually agree what the warranty terms are in their contracts; it will be largely driven by cost and the brand buying the engines may have settled for the cheaper package and provide the warranty themselves. Tricky business!

[@MrFryfish]

You make me think of conspiracy from BMW; or lack of care...

[@baxrok2.]

Excellent info on the chain and scope use. Thanks!

[@MechanicMindset]

Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching

[@AldiShuli]

Great video and explanation Sir

[@MechanicMindset]

Thanks for watching!

[@SimplyDiagnostics]

Good use of triggers 👍

[@MechanicMindset]

Cheers, not had a chance to use those features in anger before 👍

[@easynotetj68]

Hi Darren Can you tell me where you get your wiring diagrams from it seems to be the hardest thing to get a reliable diagram thanks

[@MechanicMindset]

Hi, for this car I got it if the dealer tool. I use Haynes pro a bit - seems ok for the few times Ive had to use it. Although pricey but worth it if you’re pro. If not, I sometime a Find myself scrolling through Google. I found the whole OEM PDF workshop manual with diagrams for our Swift….for free!

[@russellmcallister6830]

Awesome video info darren. Thanks m8 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[@MechanicMindset]

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it 👍

[@Lnmoto86]

Do the pins holding the links together just wear over time which creates an accumulative effect with the over all length or is it just the guide and tensioner that’s responsible? I’ve replaced numerous timing chains but I’ve never measured the overall circumference of a used chain to check

[@MechanicMindset]

I think the tensioner may be the cause. Although I also heard something about one of the sprockets causing the wear on the chain. I’ve never heard of one coming back after, have you? ie, it’s on the 2nd chain

[@mahenderraj9499]

Useful video. Thanks for uploading 💐💐

[@MechanicMindset]

Thanks for watching!

[@Ris-v4w]

0:40 thb i can't hear it. but that's just because the actual engine noise sounds a bit awful to me...sorry. i would really like to have a side-by-side comparison of one with the issue and one without, to be able to clearly distinguish the timing chain noise. anyone found one on youtube?? thx

[@MechanicMindset]

Yeah sorry, I think it is quite hard to capture that type of engine noise on video. Probably need a different type of microphone and levels set correctly. To be honest, it wasn’t the worst I’ve come across and many are only noticed by a trained ear 👂👍

[@anidiotinaracingcar]

Shouldn't you be able to do that with only a scan tool (on the OBD2 port, I mean)?

[@MechanicMindset]

Not see the slack like that. Some engines will log timing correlation fault codes, this one didn’t. Some high end scan tools might have a check timing test plan, but not all makes and models of vehicle

[@rivolinho]

When buying a n47 engined car, is it important to check it from cold start? Will the chain noise quieten down when car comes to temp?

[@MechanicMindset]

Yeah for sure, especially when they are in their way out. Once the oil pressure comes up they quieten down a bit and might be alright for a few starts after

[@david619dc]

Hello ! Are you going to record a video after timing chain repair? would be nice to see an after repair video. Thanks

[@MechanicMindset]

Yes for sure! I have fixed it and just got to edit. The comparison is very interesting!! Thanks for watching 👍

[@david619dc]

Mechanic Mindset no no no thank you 🙏

[@ignaciorodriguez5001]

As far as i know bmw provides a tool to check the upper chain strech which is the one which fails due to lack of lubrication

[@yassin9749]

hi sir, im beginner electrician and i want to ask if this test u make to make sure if the timing chain is ok or u need to fix it without just going to mecanic to open the motor? and if u find the motor of the car vibrating whats the steps to check first till u get to this test? i will be excited to hear your fabulous answer and why not make a video about those steps will make nice success !

[@MechanicMindset]

This test is a quick way to check if the timing is ok and if the chain is slack. There are may reasons for a vibrating engine; this test is just one of them. It’s common on these engines 👍

[@gh-ke7by]

I've got a 123d 2008 and had a chain replacement couple years back, but it ran dry a little few month back after a oil leak now that's sorted I have a little rattle from the chain, been told might be worth trying to change the tensioner bolt that accessible from the outside, what do you think and where is it? Thanks mate good video

[@MechanicMindset]

Cheers. Yeah that tensioner isn’t too bad too get to. It’s at the back of the engine on the left side (looking at the engine).

[@gh-ke7by]

@@MechanicMindset great thanks, worth a go at for the £40 odd for a tensioner.

[@mich9511]

Great video. Very high quality and interesting material. How do quantify if chain needs to be replaced? Is there a threshold value of chain slack or you just look at the graph visually?

[@MechanicMindset]

Hi, there shouldn’t really be any drift between the two waveforms, and also compare a known good to check timing (see part 2 where we compare good vs bad). Thanks! 👍

[@bengkelbawahpokok6753]

Wow. This is a creative way to look at the slack. 1. However will this test be valid without a known good? After watching the latest video, I saw with new timing chain the cam still jump around a little bit although not as much but how would you make the call without a known good? 2. Will variable valve timing cause the cam position to move? Maybe not like this, but I imagine it might confuse someone if there are any abnormalities with VVT. Will it be wise to disconnect the solenoid?

[@MechanicMindset]

Great questions! 1. You will need a good reference waveform to tell if it’s correctly timed. To confirm the slack movement in the chain it’s worth remembering that this test was used to confirm our suspicions that there was an issue. I think using the degree rulers will help you decide, plus experience and helpful videos like this 😁 (see the follow up for comparison) 2. Generally, VVT will only move at a certain rev range. I would not expect it to vary like this. VVT units are locked by oil hydraulics. However yes, if you were concerned that VVT was causing an issue like this, disconnect and see if it changes The Fiesta we have had VVT so I will try and do a video on that when I get time Thanks for watching 👍

[@aranhaydar9195]

Thanks for the amazing demo

[@joshcatalano5127]

Hi I have no noise but how can I check my chain at all on n47 can you see it through the sump?

[@MechanicMindset]

No, it's quite a big job to remove the sump. You can check the timing and chain slack with an oscilloscope, like this. I also think BME have a tool which is screwed in to the tensioner hole, this measures stretch. Other wise you have to take the top cover off to check the timing

[@saibabupodala6297]

Hai One doubt we have 4 chanal pico scope we need to check Coraltion V8 HOW CAN WE do any option to 4 chanal 4cam sensors 1 crank

[@MechanicMindset]

Check bank 1, and then check bank 2 after? Or check inlet cams, then exhaust cams after. There’s options

[@saibabupodala6297]

Tq for your reply good day to you 🙏

[@TheDMGstudio]

Hi, I’ve just went through an engine overhaul after stem seals leakage. Had that fixed as well as the gasket however I’ve noticed that clicking noise which now I’m led to believe is the timing chain... problem is that car didn’t have this issue prior to the repair and my question to you is whether it was possible that the garage messed it up or I’m just the unluckiest person going ? Thank you .

[@MechanicMindset]

Hi, it’s really hard to say without hearing the noise. Has it ever had a timing chain before?

[@TheDMGstudio]

@@MechanicMindset covered 93k and don’t think it had which now seems more than certain hah either way I got bummed, appreciate the reply mate, thanks

[@ryansword2771]

Very informative video mate 👍 can you hook up an amps clamp to this?

[@MechanicMindset]

Thanks! What measurement would you like to see with the amp clamp?

[@markedwards679]

Do they always snap if slightly loose ?

[@MechanicMindset]

If they are left for a long time & ignored they snap. They don’t usually go without fair ‘warning’

[@jayz395]

What program do you use for your wiring diagrams?

[@MechanicMindset]

jayz395 I just get the OEM ones off ISTA/WDS (for BMW). Also have Elsa for VWG. Otherwise I just trawl the internet.

[@jayz395]

Mechanic Mindset thanks

[@richardjones3112]

Do you need a laptop with any particular specifications to run the pick?.Great videos.

[@MechanicMindset]

I think as long as it is relatively modern, it should be ok. Of course the more RAM it has and the better the processor is, the better it will all run. Unfortunately they don’t specify a minimum spec, but I run it ok on an 8 year old Lenovo Carbon X1 with 4gb RAM 👍 Cheers!

[@richardjones3112]

@@MechanicMindset Thanks.

[@bobbaxter952]

Thats the great thing about timing chains engines,'most' of the time at least you'll get a rattling warning first!I always buy chain engines.

[@MechanicMindset]

Haha, yes. Some people still ignore this warning and pay the price! I have always had chain engines too - mainly because I like driving BMWs haha

[@HH-uv4iw]

I would genuinely come and pay you to check this on my n47 320d !

[@MechanicMindset]

Haha, cool. How far from Leamington Spa? 👍

[@HH-uv4iw]

@@MechanicMindset just checked you're 1 hour and 40 mins away, im in surrey. Have you got facebook or whatsapp so i can talk about it mate?

[@MechanicMindset]

@@HH-uv4iw Bit far for me. You can find me on FB👍

[@HH-uv4iw]

@@MechanicMindset cheers I've dropped you a message 👍

[@nickayivor8432]

KNOWLEDGEABLE Mechanic Mindset Thank you very much helpful video 👍 Mechanic Mindset From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧

[@MechanicMindset]

Thanks! I love this test 👍

[@manojkumar-mk85]

N47 and N57 engine have timing chain problem. Upper Chain ⛓️ length become long.

[@MechanicMindset]

Never come across the M57 problem yet 😳

[@bengkelbawahpokok6753]

How long of a timebase can you get to before the sample rate drops significantly? I couldn't find a chart for 2204a that shows relationship between sample rate and timebase

[@MechanicMindset]

Hmm, not sure. I think I did 500ms/div and it wasn’t great when zooming. To be honest I rarely use the zoom function. I think the resolution is fine on this at a small time base (no different to 4425). Zoom and sample rate is one area that highlights the difference between the flagship scope and this budget model. 2204A is very powerful for the money though! 👍

[@alinduta5398]

are this sensors both hall efect?

[@MechanicMindset]

Hi, yes they are

[@david619dc]

Could this just be the vvt sys (vamos) ??

[@MechanicMindset]

Good way of thinking, however this engine doesn’t have Vanos, mostly only petrol have VVT (some diesels do). When looking at VVT, the valve timing generally starts to change at a certain rev range. Check out my new video when it drops to see what good looks like. Thanks for watching! 👍

[@gcmd5852]

How do you identify crank signal circuit? Looks like ecm pins 39 and 87 have the same symbols. Another really good video, I’m gonna try that trigger trick👍🏻👍🏻

[@MechanicMindset]

The P means something like ‘pulse’ so that’s a signal. U is power, M is ground

[@gcmd5852]

Mechanic Mindset oh, I’ll have to go back and look I didn’t catch them letters thanks. Seems the domestic ( GM ) that I work on are pretty clear, circuits are labeled signal, reference, low reference etc.

[@gcmd5852]

Got it, 5 volt reference👍🏻

[@MechanicMindset]

@@gcmd5852 Yeah all manufacturers have their own way of indicating the lines. Some better than others. You’d have to be in the know to spot this one. They also use a T sometimes for ‘timed’ signal, probably stands for something else in German, but that’s what they said it pretty much translates to

[@manojkumar-mk85]

Thanks for a informative video

[@macauleyholmes6403]

I keep looking at 125d m sports (13 plates) What engine are in these. N47? Most around 70k with my price budget

[@MechanicMindset]

I believe they are N47 yes. If it’s been done before, you should be good. If you go and see one; ensure the car hasn’t been started before hand and listen for a timing gear noise that quietens after a few seconds 👍

[@macauleyholmes6403]

@@MechanicMindset cheers what does it sound like, when I saved for next 2 months, think I’m going to ask a local mechanic to come with me for the extra pair of ears and eyes

[@MechanicMindset]

@@macauleyholmes6403 Good idea, just a bit rattly, can be hard to hear if it only just on its way out. Try and look for one that’s had it already ideally 👍

[@macauleyholmes6403]

@@MechanicMindset okay cheers, you think people/garage would be honest enough to say it has or hasn’t been done

[@macauleyholmes6403]

@@MechanicMindset because some are very shady even garages, my mum bought a lancer that no no problems then suddenly kept going into limp mode, they “repaired it 3 times” same problem so It went back

[@미스터쿠쿠-e1x]

brilliant! love tech!

[@MechanicMindset]

Glad you enjoyed the video - this is one of my favourites. Go check out the part 2 for comparison good vs bad 👍

[@d.d4184]

Brilliant video

[@MechanicMindset]

Thanks for watching!

[@johndouglas5720]

Hi Darren, just watched your video as I am having the same issue with a Mazda 3 2.2d, I don't as yet have a scope to diagnose the issue further. I was wondering if you had a DTC up also to tell you that the chain had stretched. I have a P0016 code on startup but if I clear it whilst the car is running it doesn't come again until the car is stopped and started again. Great video, really informative channel.

[@MechanicMindset]

Hi, I didn’t have a DTC and can’t ever remember seeing one on an N47… I have had these still running with piston touching valves and no DTC. It probably the main reason the snap; because people ignore the noise, or just aren’t aware. Cheers John!

[@SimBury1]

Nice video Darren and so informative - thank you. I’ve just got into engine diagnostics and picked up you channel from You Tube; brilliant content. How did you know to use Pin 87 and pin 62, when all the connections on the wiring diagram look similar for both sensors?

[@MechanicMindset]

Thanks for the feedback and good to have you on the channel. Basically 3 wire sensors have a live, earth and signal. There is a code on the BMW diagrams to identify signals. Also you can trace the wire to see what the source it. They also use DIN numbers to identify powers and grounds etc.

[@hardfixintosimple]

Hi. Where I can find to buy p2204 scope? In links is out of stock.

[@MechanicMindset]

Hi, sorry to hear that. They are always coming back in to stock. You could also search in google or try to buy direct from PicoScope. They are very popular currently! Good luck

[@hardfixintosimple]

@@MechanicMindset there is no link from whitch I will buy and % of the price goes to you?

[@MechanicMindset]

@@hardfixintosimple Sorry, I only have that set up with Amazon. Thanks for considering supporting the channel!

[@duanedonaldson2262]

Rising edge to next rising edge is a full tooth and that larger distance is 6 degrees, your chain is about 3 degrees flux. Your scope has cursors Mate, please use them and give an honest diagnosis, cheers.

[@MechanicMindset]

Hi Duane, so sorry your quite right! My focus in this video was use of the advanced trigger to hold the pattern and identify the slack movement in the timing gear. Check out the follow up video where we get the rotational rulers out to compare good to bad 👍

[@FREDRACECAR]

Awesome vidéo!

[@rosendomedina8933]

Thank You for sharing !!!

[@MechanicMindset]

My pleasure!

[@bluedeckelectronics]

Good video ! Thank you!

[@kaisslash5970]

Excellent video I have the 116D from 2014 with an N47T engine, do you know if it has the same chain problem?

[@MechanicMindset]

Glad you enjoyed it - check out the comparison to new too. This is one of my favs! As far as I’m aware, all the N47s are affected although not done a 116d before from memory (less on the road). My pal in Scotland did one on a Mini 2012 last week which is probably the same config as 116d. Also not done many over 2010. I would replace the top chain tensioner and keep the oil changes regular; don’t wait 20k for the service light to come on! 👍

[@benkr5870]

Nice video

[@MechanicMindset]

Cheers Ben!

[@stephanevaucelles6378]

thanks for video

[@MechanicMindset]

stephane vaucelles Thanks for watching!

[@aivarinno9257]

Nice. I like it

[@MechanicMindset]

Thanks for watching!

[@sara78130]

Thanks

[@nemz7505]

When the top chain is loose it'll rattle noticably on cold startup or if the tensioner is weak, whereas the middle chain makes a whooshing sound at around 1500 RPM when hot. Once you've got on to the sound, you can immediately hear it. Changing the tensioner will get rid of the top chain noise, but the chain will still snap.

[@MechanicMindset]

Thanks for the insights! Best to replace the lot to be safe. Parts are pretty cheap now. Cheers 👍

[@stevejelly3161]

I'm sorry for being "old and crotchety" ...... (and i thank you for the video) !!! . But those first generation 7 series BMW's would just go on forever !!! . (and they always had a "small end" rattle that would come and go during the warm up) . (it was a tolerance that the engine designers built in for reliability) . I'm sure BMW developed the "Motronic" fuel injection with Bosch ..... and the cars were sold all over the world !!! . The concept went right down the range to the 4 cylinder 316 !!! . May i kindly ask ???.... Am i missing something ???

[@LeeFall]

RIP headphone users 0:37 you will be missed.

[@gingerskydust6573]

Too bad no regular person has this on his house when buying a car 😂

[@MechanicMindset]

Haha, true! It does take some time to set up, but listening to the engine from cold will usually give you an idea if the chain is ok or not

[@yassin9749]

@@MechanicMindset whats the difference u notice between cold and hot engine?

[@MechanicMindset]

@@yassin9749 It’s worse when it’s cold

[@yassin9749]

@@MechanicMindset thank you

[@felixcat4346]

Timing chains don't just snap.

[@MechanicMindset]

Mechanic Mindset Diagnostic Coach program is here! Click link: www.mechanicmindset.com/diagnostic-coach

[@rajfell]

Good mechanics needs 30 seconds to be sure

[@MechanicMindset]

Yeah, if you know these engines, you know it's failed

[@jt4163]

😂😂😂... And now?..... Congratulations, now you definitely know your engine have a timing chain problem. So when you can hear it, just change it.

[@MechanicMindset]

For sure this car was destined for a timing chain. What we are demonstrating here is the power of this cheap oscilloscope; the advanced trigger that allows us to trigger the waveform without a cylinder ID. N47 are renowned for TC issues, you can use this technique to confirm the same problems on other engines too. Also confirm the timing 👍

[@GeorgeAusters]

That sounds completely normal... This was mine before and after I replaced it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lYi4gIKnorRjbq8

[@MechanicMindset]

I think it is quite hard to capture the noise with the microphone I am using. They can sound terrible - especially if valve is touching piston!!

[@reynardbizzar5461]

This is a good reason not to buy a BMW. It’s a 20 plate and making this row! Big Money Worries eh?

[@MechanicMindset]

Hi Reynard Bizzar this has a private plate; it’s a 2008 car. Although you are right, this particular engine has a known problem with the timing chain. Luckily it’s less expensive to fix them now compared to a few years back 👍