Overwatch 2 Reddit Has Lost It

[@J.R.Swish1]

“I think Zarya is hyper-mobile because she can do that little jump tech thingy” - someone in the OW forums probably

[@michaualtington]

they should bring back that one april fools patch from ow1 where zarya actually was really mobile

[@Deusaga]

KZbin comment sections is just as loony. Some guy wrote a full essay in another post saying how great and healthy Brig and Bap were for OW1. Because he loved playing them. Delusions.

[@vivelespatat2670]

​@@DeusagaBaptiste and its 3 healthbars 😭

[@Savevade]

​@Klyttorius true youtube comments are pretty bad as well of just people arguing

[@Erwin0550]

@@vivelespatat2670 luckily that got fixed

[@reybutsquishy]

self harm is loading reddit and going to the gaming ones

[@36cowboysintotalatramranch]

My therapist told me "I think the websites you are using are harming you" 😭😭

[@Lordin_]

ANY GAME has a subreddit with 2 and only 2 things: a really good guide made by someone that put thousands of hours in the game The worst takes you couldn't even imagine a functional human being is able to produce.

[@eagerinspirit]

twitter will always be worse than reddit so at least reddit has that going for it. only the most insufferable people imaginable are consistent twitter users

[@TrueOracle]

No, going to any subreddit

[@soundrogue4472]

I learn that the hard way with game designers defending Seige's design choice of trying to force people to use godets that have a low skill floor versus players choosing higher skill floor guns to play with.

[@AbbyOW2]

FINALLY , someone else sees that "competitive"OW has started to devolve into the main subreddit but part 2.

[@s--b]

It got noticeably worse a few months ago. I'm assuming it's because Reddit started recommending it to people from the main sub. It's served a de facto second purpose as "Overwatch discussion but you're not at risk of seeing a Bronze's opinion" which worked for a while but it was only a matter of time until this happened since the only way it was filtered was just by flying under the radar

[@alanwiseman3235]

Good to see you @AbbyOW2

[@AbbyOW2]

@@alanwiseman3235 Whats up wiseman!

[@AbbyOW2]

@@s--b For sure, some of the stuff I been reading on there been rather... interesting.

[@PlainDoll]

What being f2p and majority of reddit being lower than gold does a community

[@slowpr0]

The guy who posted the comment about Sombra not being mobile is an extremely active user on /r/sombramains 😂

[@MasterMemo]

I feel like there's a potential comment that she's not hyper mobile in a fight like Genji or Tracer. Can't use invis speed while fighting, and if you use translocate, you can't escape. But out of battle? Nah she can go almost anywhere

[@assimilater-quicktips]

@@MasterMemoit’s a bit map dependent, but most maps have SOME geometry sombra CAN work with to fairly reliably escape fights

[@apocalypseap]

The guy who posted that is extremely biased. I mean, I'm okay with biases, as long as you self-check to a reasonable degree.

[@omars1369]

Every single comment and post that talks about sombra being a bad character design is bombarded with users that overlap with r/sombramains.

[@MasterMemo]

@@assimilater-quicktipsno I meant that if you translocate to dodge mid fight (like throw towards the ground) it won't be on cooldown to leave.

[@jacobishere5189]

This is the greatest Overwatch 2 Reddit Has Lost It of all time

[@KADOMETER]

of All Time

[@mango63676]

99% of dive haters argument is just :" wow they didnt let me get away with my horrible positioning, so yeah nerf genji"

[@J.R.Swish1]

You just summed up why Genji has been trash tier for over 5 years. Because they wanna cater to those “people”. That’s why there hasn’t been a proper dive meta since s10 of OW1 or even s1 of OW2 when heroes like Genji, Tracer and Winston were at their correct power levels before Blizzard introduced support power creep a couple seasons later. I didn’t mean to, but I just realized my support power creep statement works for both instances of OW1 and OW2 where supports ruined the game both time. And guess what: these supports that ruined the game are all dive hard counters or bunker heroes.

[@mango63676]

@@J.R.Swish1 brig is a prime example of this, the game died the second she was released, while she is a big counter to dive she's also a big counter to fun in general which ultimately put the game in it's grave, and to add after that they released Baptiste after brig, which is also a powercreep support character, funny part is that they didn't learn from their mistakes and with the release of ow2, the game kinda got revived, and died again because of the stupid supports they keep releasing

[@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong]

​@@J.R.Swish1Honestly, after the first few nerfs, I didnt agree with every single nerfs to genji. Idk why they keep stomping him down

[@nj4442]

@@J.R.Swish1 This has nothing to do with your point but the fact that you called them "people", like their humanity is being questioned because they dislike dive heroes is just funny for some reason. Based though

[@everynone1849]

"This community cannot make up its mind" - Even if Spilo got everything he wanted it wouldn't matter cuz two weeks later everybody would be complaining how stale the meta is. The problem is that your average OW player wants to load into a game, follow their bliss and play whatever random character they feel like at the moment, and "feel" like they had an even chance at winning based purely on their efforts regardless of what their team picked, the enemy team picked, or what map it is.

[@assimilater-quicktips]

Even in the worst of times I still believe low ranks get that dream though. When the enemy is a silver mauga, you can play anything even monkey. I’m not sure exactly where the cutoff would be for being able to play monkey into mauga but definitely it gets harder by Diamond. But bronze and silver players get that dream of being able to play anything

[@soundrogue4472]

So they just want an experience that's more like TF2 then. I still have to say it's funny to see a team of Spy's win against a normal comp team. Funniest shit I remember seeing.

[@AutumnReel4444]

​@assimilater-quicktips Based. Honestly, you can one trick at any rank, but you get punished a bit more at about Diamond, yes

[@PerpetuusTenebris]

@@assimilater-quicktips Incorrect. It's easier to play into counters at lower ranks, sure, but not even remotely close to easy.

[@assimilater-quicktips]

@@PerpetuusTenebris if a mauga is a problem in silver he won’t stay in silver. The only skill required is point and hold down left and right click at the bus that is the enemy tank. They’re in silver because they can’t do that. If you struggle against that on monkey it’s not cause they’re on mauga, they could be on anything and you would struggle

[@arororvidod]

Reddit becomes a much more enjoyable medium when pretending that the comments are not written by real human beings.

[@Axis0504]

same with teammates while playing ranked

[@TheYoyo369]

“REMOVE THE SUBREDDIT” has to be next viral clip surely

[@Mavvryck]

Your first point is exactly what I have been saying. Not only does balancing low skill ceiling characters to be competitive at higher skill levels just makes High skill characters unplayable at most of the ranks but it punishes you for trying to learn those harder heroes. That's something riot understands with league. Certain characters just become unplayable at higher levels because their linear basic kits that are easy to play work well at low elo but fall off at high elo where more mechanical heroes can take over.

[@MhnFive]

But in the same breath it must be mentioned that league is notorious for being accused of power creep and bloated kits that reward anyone willing to learn it with paragraphs of advantages. Imagine the absolute hatred that a character like K'Sante would bring in Overwatch. I'm also willing to argue that there are plenty of old and simple designed lol characters that are rather infamous for their performance. Many of the horsemen/women of top lane are very straightforward, for example. That's to say little of the fact that league is also a notoriously difficult game to get into. Shifting overwatch further into that direction IS something worth discussion, that's by no means a small thing.

[@Mavvryck]

@MhnFive there are tons of things wrong with league I'm not at all saying league doesn't have some of the same problems with power creep. My point is they don't balance garen and yi to be viable in challenger. They do have the same problem of deleting high skill characters because of how dominant they get but i also wouldn't mind seeing kalista zeri and azir in a pro game.

[@dashieldmasta177]

And then you run into people that started with those easier characters hitting a brick wall and having to completely change their hero pool to be able to do anything, realizing the fun characters that they like playing are intentionally bad, and dropping the game because it's quite literally stacked against them, and directly trying to force them to change. League has almost three times the characters on offer that OW has, and this is STILL a big issue with the game that leads to a lot of people wanting a serious experience to quit. These easier characters need to be balanced around not having that ceiling, but still being a generally useful pick that people can use, with good effort, to win games when they don't have strong lobby coordination. Ironically, Moira is a perfect example of this - extremely intuitive to play, has a kit that directly affects combat on multiple levels, a very versatile ultimate, and a good, frequently usable mobility tool to help her mesh with her current comp. Absolute blunders like Mauga and Bastion need to be moved towards that peg.

[@SaarlaneKretiin]

riot does not understand that. its the excact opposite. they only balance around wr% and certain data points. thats it. actual high skill ceiling characters are never allowed to be good, and comfort/popular picks are held in constant "viable" status

[@Mavvryck]

@SaarlaneKretiin oh they 100% have characters they nuke ie azir, kalista, now ziri but you can't tell me they try to make yi or garen viable at worlds.

[@Zhohan-]

"'Spilo, did you put your name in the Goblet of Fire,' Dumbledore asked calmly."-ass haircut.

[@chiefinasmith]

Your first mistake was opening Reddit

[@tsotnats]

The most important point I took away from this is that Spilo is a fellow Bionicle enjoyer

[@w_out7631]

Going back to the Broken by Design Tier list, notice how alot of the characters on the lower end are the Defense characters from OW1. 🧐🧐🧐

[@blazing910]

Yeah a lot of them are fundamentally flawed in their designs. The defence characters are also by far the most reworked from their original points already, symm torb hanzo bastion have all been completely reworked some multiple times. Let’s not forget that even the ow devs said they would not have added widow to the game in retrospect

[@vivelespatat2670]

​​@@blazing910If I had a nickel everytime the devs of a class/hero-based shooter wanted to remove their "Sniper" from their game, I would have 2 nickels, which isn't a lot but its weird it happened twice.

[@jond7851]

@@vivelespatat2670what other game are you talking about lol I’m interested

[@skarloeythomas5172]

@@jond7851 I think a TF2 dev commented a few years ago on how the Sniper is a problem they didn't forsee. Sniper's skill ceiling is infinite and the longer the game has gone on, the more people have trained to live and breathe Sniper, quickscoping across the map in a minimum of 0.125s or something. He might have said Valve would have looked at the class differently in hindsight.

[@MrDrManPerson]

​@@jond7851TF2 Sniper has been Pretty universally recognized as bad for the game. Has very little counterplay and can solo teams like nobody else.

[@wyattcalcote5867]

23:40 that is a classic Thought Terminating Cliché, a quipy one liner that is supposed to sound like it obliterated your argument without doing any leg work to disprove anything

[@I_m_him]

Reddit has fallen. Billions must downvote.

[@HalfAryanHunterGatherer]

Trillions even

[@thatonepronoun7503]

The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities.

[@assimilater-quicktips]

From my understanding it applies to varying degrees at all levels of competence

[@Arissi]

wtf spilocord reference

[@thatonepronoun7503]

@@assimilater-quicktips The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities.

[@assimilater-quicktips]

@@thatonepronoun7503 Some researchers also include the opposite effect for high performers: their tendency to underestimate their skills. In popular culture, the Dunning-Kruger effect is often misunderstood as a claim about general overconfidence of people with low intelligence instead of specific overconfidence of people unskilled at a particular task.

[@anonymoustaco8959]

This subreddit is a case study what you get when you reward and baby people who main low skill heros

[@PaulHoleybatch]

Or the official forums that prove this community is the one that understands their own game the least in the history of gaming.

[@anonymoustaco8959]

@@PaulHoleybatch they should just give like a flats or spilo a day to balance how they’d do it and lives would be saved, this game is nothing but a disappointment

[@scumknight6074]

Well the issue isn’t low skill anymore, it’s characters that have very little punishment for existing. Reaper, Bastion, Brigette. Fundamentally there’s not a lot of skill, but get they punished very easily which is what makes them skillful.

[@anonymoustaco8959]

@@scumknight6074my definition of low skill: characters that are incredibly easy to gain value on, esp compared to characters who “work harder” to gain value like genji tracer Ana

[@CelticMexican]

@@anonymoustaco8959 That's the normal definition, though I'd add low skill floor/cap. Like brig, reaper, orisa, mercy, moira.

[@Punchbadguy]

For the last portion talking about aggressive vs defensive characters I think you could take a simple look over at cod and see that people who camp are heavily frowned upon whilst people who run around typically have more fun. Having to make a dynamic choice over a simple choice is always going to be more fun.

[@madtonesbr]

The sub is slowly worsening, it used to be about pro play and the pro scene, and some meta discussion about the game from people who at least appreciated high rank play. Now it's being infected by people from the main sub meaning it's a ton of fantasy rework ideas, general complaints from metal rank players, terrible hot takes for upvotes, whining about punishments for leaving games, etc. I fully expect to see a lot of skin and lore discussion on there in the coming months.

[@Iceburn76]

Garbage takes and whining are all that reddit is.

[@swang8862]

26:52 this is what happened, this post got ALOT of attention from the people who play the characters he ranked most broken.

[@Bullskunk]

very interesting watching back the Lucio conversation in this video with Juno now in the mix

[@ninthfriend3347]

They did a follow post onto this video and yeah, it’s the reason why I stayed away from cow reddit. I thought this is competitive Overwatch subreddit, not Overwatch forum. I thought they have better understanding of the game.

[@madtonesbr]

I mentioned above in another comment - in the last year the sub has grown and gotten waaaay worse as people from the main sub have come with their stupid rework ideas

[@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong]

It genuinely has a wide varying quality of posters in there. Sometimes you get genuine great advice, other times you find the Kiriko/Mercy/Sombra mafia defending their horseshit takes

[@OpenKoms]

Lucio being a unique character is a Lucio design issue apparently lol

[@gregoryb6494]

Lucio isnt broken because he is the best MS nearly always, he is the best MS nearly always because only him and Brig are actually decent designs in the MS role LOL. They have the cause and effect completely backwards.

[@AIMLESS-NAMELESS]

My ow1 brig ptsd will not let me agree with you

[@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629]

@@AIMLESS-NAMELESS As much as l hate brig because her release she was so bullshit op+goats that l uninstalled the game and waited for ow2, her kit now after all the changes has a way better skill curve to reward ratio and ceiling compared to stuff like moira, lifeweaver and mercy. how do you fix this? you change those 3 characters, moira lifeweaver and mercy.

[@AIMLESS-NAMELESS]

@@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629 idk how you change them to make them not low skill. Ig you could make Moira beam like the sym change. I don’t think weaver is low skill I just think is play pattern is annoying for both sides

[@MasterMemo]

I think the point about mobility is the trickiest. There are counters to mobility, but that counter is CC. That's it. Positioning and aiming are just basic mechanics. It's while a decent Genji and Tracer are so difficult to deal with even when they're weak. Being able to dodge damage is the strongest thing you can do. Specifically, Sombra and Winston have good mobility to get into position and leave, but they have no mid fight mobility.

[@Carebear_Pooh]

The more balance/design discussions we have about heroes in overwatch, the more i appreciate how well the design of TF2 flows. The core philosophy is really strong: make 9 classes that are able to hold their own and interact with the other 8 in a very specific way, then give them different weapons as a way to shake up gameplay and playstyle. These sort of design/balance discussions at such a fundamental level were never at the forefront back in the day - even when it still featured defensive heroes and oneshotters like spy and sniper. I’m increasingly starting to believe that most of these problems stem from the developers not really knowing what they want overwatch to be, and as a result they swerve a lot and release a lot of heroes that end up like mauga and lifeweaver. I keep noticing this in interviews with the developers: they seemingly keep changing their mind and vision all the time. TF2 never suffered from players arguing how the game was actually supposed to be played. Yet we do see that clearly displayed here for overwatch. Bad players in TF2 genuinely just sucked in general, while good players were doing the things that the game asked from them. TF2 shows that defensive heroes don’t have to be unhealthy for a hero shooter and can actually be very fun to play against. i genuinely believe this to be possible for overwatch as well. I am aware that sniper oneshot specifically has been discussed many times, but the intensity of these debates never reached the intensity of the debates we see for overwatch

[@lamptowel]

nah defensive characters in TF2 are cancer, it's just that the good players that enjoy competitive play created a format where defensive characters are weak in order to facilitate the fast play that the movement characters enjoy. Ow just has too many characters, too much overlap, they have to add so many things to every new character

[@vivelespatat2670]

​@@lamptowelSomething tell me you tried to solo a Sentry nest as a Scout one too many times.

[@lamptowel]

@@vivelespatat2670 you are some random pubber lol please don't speak about things you don't understand im a demo player btw :3

[@MrComet101]

If you're telling me playing against sniper is fun, I would have to disagree

[@BrolympicBWL]

Also 15:14 I hate this whole “X is my main so…” the whole idea that because you main somebody gives you credibility is infuriating. You can main any hero you want and still be bronze.

[@EtonuiYoutube]

Rein meta is fun meta. Winton meta is W meta.

[@nurikkulanbaev3628]

L take

[@brown9671]

@@nurikkulanbaev3628 what metas do you like? mauga metas?

[@nurikkulanbaev3628]

@@brown9671 What made you think that, lol. Any HARD meta is unfun garbage. Winston, Rein doesnt fricking matter. Winston should NOT win against Rein in Kings Row, and Rein should not win against Winston in Gibraltar

[@brown9671]

@@nurikkulanbaev3628 yeah no hard meta is fun, but there are better ones then others. id rather have a winston meta then a mauga meta. also every meta doesnt have to be a HARD meta, if both rein and winston are viable in a meta, then you could do rein on kingsrow and winston in gibraltar no problem, the issue is when you cant do either because theres some infinite health pool tank on the other team

[@TractorProductions]

snorefest meta

[@shazbots]

I got recommended this video, despite not really being an overwatch player. I found your insights cool; I like analysis-related things.

[@soundrogue4472]

2 seconds in and I'm just thinking, "WTF?" I started dying after reading that. "Not hypermobile" HOW, HOW IS SHE NOT?

[@36cowboysintotalatramranch]

Read: "I frequently die because I throw my translocator in front of the supports and immediately uncloak"

[@lukasg4807]

I kind of agree with him, she's mobile not hypermobile (even if it's kind of semantics). Hyper mobile implies that there are normal mobility and immobile, and she fits better in normal mobility along with winston, dva, soldier/soj. Ball, doom, tracer, genji, kiriko, lucio, and arguably echo/pharah/mercy are all more mobile than sombra. Her stealth is only useful for staging so in a fight she only has the translocater as a mobility option. She's one of the easiest dive heroes to punish a bad engage/disengage because if you can follow the translocater she's dead every time. Sorry for the long response :/

[@soundrogue4472]

@@lukasg4807 Sombra is my number one DPS hero I would play; she is by far and away VERY mobile. She has the most mobility options you'll ever run across. When people mean mobility they don't mean speed they mean movement options. Her invis is a great example of a mobility tool with it being used to avoid getting into a fight AND for speed. That's two strong mobility tools she has, yes she has hypermobility.

[@madtonesbr]

@@lukasg4807 Saying Dva and Winston also aren't hypermobile is taking this from a bad hot take to an even worse one

[@lukasg4807]

@@madtonesbr they're not. They have normal good tank mobility, as opposed to low mobility tanks or no mobility tanks like orisa and hog. Do you really think they're in the same category as doom or ball because they can jump onto a roof?

[@Coryn_Bunnydeer]

5:27 shoutouts to the guy saying "Hog hurts me physically" beclaws same In the whole OW2 lifespan (I started playing OW1 at the end of its life), 90% of the moments I considered uninstalling the game was not due to PVE shenanigans that were happening, it was not due to predatory monetization, it was not due to toxicity. It was due to Hog's existence within it. So the pie analogy makes a lot of sense

[@abudgie6909]

Same here homie. I'm a winston main, so that makes me an extra hog hater, however he still ruins my games on the other two roles effortlessly.

[@averagedelta]

“I am biased, but for good reason”

[@kingvalor8265]

Just thinking about playing a version where those bottom 2 rows of heroes aren’t in the game got my mouth watering🤣

[@fateofsouls214]

If you remove those, you would remove Widow, Kiriko and Mercy. All of those have big playerbases and are a big revenue generators for the game. Mercy is the most played Hero in the entire game by a big step. Kiri is the forth most played hero after Ana and Moira (latter would also vanish). Widowmaker is 6th but at the same time the most played DPS. While you would like it, it would probably be a deathsentance for the game in terms of playerbase and income (and latter is already not so great).

[@Kat-xp8zn]

@@fateofsouls214 Bah, most people who play kiri either play her because shes broken or because they are high rank players. i remember when i was in gold and the only people playing kiri there eventually tend to swap to moira or mercy

[@vivelespatat2670]

​@@fateofsouls214I would give a kidney to see Widow being snapped out of the game.

[@BigMamaBlack]

Lucio boop get so much value compared to other boops because of his mobility. If he didn’t have wall ride and speed boost, it would be one of the worst boops.

[@Sahilow]

It’s the best boop because of its knockback

[@soundrogue4472]

25:12 Hack needs to be more like the backstab from TF2, the problem is the distance you can hack your target AND getting huge benefit out of being invisible FOR CLOSING THE DISTANCE! I heavily dislike playing Sombra now (which is why I quit OW2) because I get free value from invis. I wouldn't mind making it be more costly, more risky to hack my target instead what we got now.

[@MasterMemo]

I wouldn't say we get free value from invis, you have to do something with it. I mean, it's incredibly easy value, but nothing comes from it. But she was far more fun in OW1 where hack had more value than trying to cancel ults. Even when invis and translocator were on timers.

[@soundrogue4472]

@@MasterMemo That's because limiting her invis and translocator forced you to time when and where you'd be using her tools which is fun. Also how is invis not just free value? Just because you have to do something with it doesn't mean it's not free value. Free value just means little to no cost, nothing risky to pay for it, not much of a toll to pay.

[@omrizubary]

GOOD

[@MasterMemo]

@@soundrogue4472 I wouldn't say that timing was fun, it was just less annoying to other players. It's not more fun having a limit to doing stuff especially on longish cooldowns. It's why Bap lamp isn't super fun, because since it's powerful on a long cooldown, a misuse just feels bad. I guess you can call it free value. But being invis only matters if you can get where you want. Like first point Eichenwalde, getting through the choke can be hard because any dmg will unstealth you, so getting into position takes a while. Not saying that's bad. It does provide protection tho, you're right

[@soundrogue4472]

@@MasterMemo Correct me if I'm wrong but it's easier to shoot someone WHEN YOU CAN SEE THEM, RIGHT? Also the timer limited their power/ range and time of use. If the Bap Lamp was on a shorter time, wouldn't it be less annoying and force Bap to actually think when to use his lamp?

[@ecru_5819]

"Sombra is not hypermobile" Me, who has played Sombra alot since OW1 and some of 2 before uninstall: "Are you sure about that-"

[@kielmessersmith1956]

People just see Genji nerfs and arbitrarily decide he's bad, but he still has a kit with some of the most mechanical potential in the game. Plus an instant ability that resets on eliminations. No other hero has anything close to it for cleaning up a fight.

[@LeatherNinja]

I'm struggling to see how anything you said makes him a good character rn because he's not

[@kielmessersmith1956]

@LeatherNinja if you play him like a potato, sure.

[@JoseMendoza-dl4hg]

@@LeatherNinja I fail to see how he isn't a good character. He is consistently Top 5 in both pick and win rate at all ranks, many times Top 3. He was played often and to great success in the OWCS which is currently the highest tier of play where players min max harder than anyone else. Genji mains are just gaslighting the community and playing up the victim card. Same statements have been made ever since OW1.

[@LeatherNinja]

@JoseMendoza-dl4hg blade feels and is pretty terrible, and he doesn't have reasonably executable ttk anymore, so he feels terrible compared to other seasons (this is relevant to all characters but especially Genji). Doom was played in OWCS when Orisa was hard meta- if anyone on the ranked ladder tried something like that, they'd be in for a rude awakening. I watch OWCS often, and Genji was mostly played for cage fight blade and deflect works well against Mauga and friends. Genji was actually the worst dps in ow1; uncancellable deflect, low burst dps, high mechanical requirements, unplayable against hard counters. ect, so you can't make a case for players "gaslighting the community" there. Genji was in the top 3 pick rate in dps with a 52% win rate when he was bottom 3 in the entire game, a certified d teir pick. Kiriko has had 48% win rates across the board. Does this mean Kirko is bad?

[@LeatherNinja]

@kielmessersmith1956 he's not good he's just OK

[@psdjklgfuiob]

redditors mad that characters that counter well executed dives with 1 no-aim button are considered unhealthy.. hmm..

[@catkawa643]

Spilo, the good players quit, the game isn't fun for them rn

[@ayubious]

it's crazy how little most people know about how their respective competitive game is designed and what makes certain designs strong/weak and healthy/unhealthy, yet are so confident spouting their low-level takes

[@vladgaedel8521]

"community can't make up its mind" is somewhat a stupid thing to say, people don't need to agree with each other just because you throw them together into a lump

[@drmaidenless]

overwatch 2 reddit has never had it in the first place

[@tortue_]

i love spilo going all out, that team Schmungus analysis video was one of the best, BOGGUUUURR hahaha, the intro is really reminiscent of that moment

[@BigMamaBlack]

I don’t think that there are more mains of high skill characters. That is a GM prospective. As far as tanks, I don’t ever see monkey or rein “mains” anymore. Almost every tank player flexes or plays hog. Hog imo is much more rewarding than other tanks because you can land a nasty hook and almost guaranteed get the kill. Queen with knives doesn’t guaranteed kill.

[@timmtimm9729]

Well yeah but he’s in a “competitive” overwatch forum and so it’s reasonable to assume that the people speaking should be looking from a “GM perspective”

[@super64xd_]

Me who rolls out on reaper on the regular. No I'm not offended by what he said, I know my character is simple.

[@KingdomofArabia]

i dont play reaper but i think he requires the fastest reaction time compared to other heroes. if that counts for anything to you

[@soundrogue4472]

Edit: let me clarify, I mean the risk to reward; I am well aware Brawl has a lot of resource commitment which makes it a nightmare to play at times. 7:46 that's because Dive in general is a resource commitment, how many non-dive style of heroes are there where resource commitment is there? This has been a big problem for a while.

[@abudgie6909]

Brawl generally has quite a lot of resource commitment imo. With poke or midrange comps it really depends, since heroes like mercy or widow can be extremely low risk, low commitment.

[@soundrogue4472]

@@abudgie6909 Let me rephrase, Dive has the best risk to reward ratio compared to the others.

[@abudgie6909]

@@soundrogue4472 yeah I agree with that

[@scoutwithamedigun4976]

I really hope space ranger will fill the same niche as Lucio/Mercy of a high mobility enabler with low healing but unique utility. Something like an antigrav area like the anti grav cube from the finals to help teammates get to high ground, or jump boost to help less mobile heroes like rein still push points that normally take mobility to reasonably get to, like the high ground on esperanca mid. As much as i love lucio he does need some competition in the higher ranks

[@yur048]

Thats what happens when a subreddit gets big, especially when a subreddit is supposed to be educational

[@Milkra]

The overwatch subreddits are so funny. Like how are you gonna get no bitches AND be bad at video games bro pick a struggle

[@totalwhitetrash]

Lucio is the only reason i keep coming back to Overwatch. How anyone can claim he's broken is beyond me. He is the one character which, in my opinion, perfectly captures the balance of being pure, exhilirating fun, whilst also having a real and tangible impact on the match he's in. Even when I'm goofing around playing the silly frog boi, I'm still supporting and enabling my entire team. He is the textbook example of "support, NOT healer" Unfortunately 90% of players never took the time to learn his kit, he's simultaneously one of the most consistently popular, yet drastically misunderstood characters. Like spilo said, if Reinhardt literally requires a Lucio to be viable, then that's a Reinhardt issue. Luckily, Lucio is so perfectly designed, that lucio mains like me, are always willing to pick him to help out our Reinhardts. Instead of blaming us, push for blizzard to fix Rein, then we can both experience what good hero design feels like.

[@narcodixyadigg781]

I stand by the opinion that Overwatch content creators are just waiting for another company to do Overwatch better. The way we talk about this game and the concept of fundamentally broken heroes would take nothing less than full reworks or format changes. At that point we just need a new game.

[@Clarkzer0]

Many are, rivals is just around the corner and many are vocal about switching over.

[@narcodixyadigg781]

@Clarkzer0 That's good. It may just be time for a shake-up within the OW content creators' scene anyway. The old guard look more burnt out than anything (not Spilo exactly), so a change of game may do them good. At this point, we're just arguing about who or what *should* be meta, and it's all just opinion anyway.

[@Kat-xp8zn]

I hope so. the only reason i havent left ow is because no other company dares to create a char with the same skillset and kit Tracer has, the finals tried but its not the same, i think marvel rivals has brought the closest thing i can get so far, and if it clicks i will leave, and i think most people share the sentiment of being trapped into this game because there's no other one out there that feels the same

[@-NoNo.]

⁠@@Clarkzer0im excited for rivals but it has nowhere near the same polish as ow. it has a lot of frame issues and their balancing philosophy is ore than likely worse than overwatch.

[@1DanteadamS1]

15:19 i agree with this take. Oh yes he's the support that has the highest skill ceiling. He certainly has if you play like frogger. But does he REALLY need it to provide and make maximum value out of his most powerful utility - speedboost? Oh it certainly requires coordination with your team. I've been around OW since 2017, i've been there when brig released and she and goats tainted the game. I don't remember much of the pro games, they were always boring mirror matches though that's for sure, but recently hardbleu played 6v6 pugs, and they played goats mirror. And it was easy to see there that there's just one aspect that made goats have almost no weaknesses - they're ALWAYS where they want to be. Yes, every defensive ability imaginable and sustain are bad enough. But it really felt like it's their ability to instantly take any and every position they need to is the cherry on top, the last piece of the puzzle. And from the matches of ow2 pro scene that i saw i felt like i saw the same thing - whole team rushes and almost instantly take whatever position they want to take, instantly get there, get a pick or at least force opposing team out of position. From outside, it doesn't really that skillful, bunch of guys just stood close, one pressed 2nd ability button, then the whole team just pressed their assigned move forward button, and turned their cameras a little. And that alone is fine, the problem is that there's no match to it. It's incredibly hard to punish (because it's the whole enemy team riding a train straight at you), so hard everyone just resorts to mirroring the strategy, it means that there's no weakness to it that can be exploited. And that IS problematic to me. And yeah, i can imagine a few very specific, very precise, map dependant and very hard to set up ways to punish a very generic stand real close, press 1 button, move forward strategy. But no one ever bothers to pull of something like that. No one ever, at the highest tiers of play of ow, ever tries to play differently. And that's my problem. Also, the fact that only lucio provides speed isn't a lucio problem. But you never asked yourself, what if it's the amount of speed lucio provides is the reason no other support provides speed?

[@vanishhero964]

Haven’t seen the full video yet but I bet someone says something stupid like perma invisibility is actually fair and balanced

[@SamOliver4]

I don't think the comp OW subreddit has ever been THAT especially smart in their takes. I think there was always a reasonable assumption most people there were average-skilled players (gold/plat), just that they were more into high-level Overwatch esports, watched said esports, and therefore had a somewhat better understanding of how pro play worked. I think Overwatch University was always going to end up being the better sub for Overwatch design takes in the long run, especially after the death of OWL, but I haven't been to Overwatch University in a while so I could be wrong.

[@aerostrafe1075]

Sounds like what happens when a game goes FTP. You get some of the dumbest takes from people who played the game for 1 hour that day but spent 6 hours on the forums that day.

[@dmajorray6154]

I really do think when the blizzard team looks at "community feedback" its just everyone that sucks them off lmao.

[@X_MANGO__]

r/cow is a horrible sub. Everyone posts as if they are a top 500 player but in reality, the majority of the sub is 16 yo plat players. The mere mention of 6v6 is met with downvotes and name-calling. Very toxic people in that sub. Best decision I made was leaving that sub.

[@C-R.]

Reddit in general not just r/cow. People there think if you don’t agree with them you’re the incarnation of WW2 Germany.

[@lavenderlilacs]

deserved tbh 6v6 isn't coming back, and it won't fix everything. no reason to whine abt it

[@Nickelback8469]

People should stop mentioning 6v6, and while the name calling is unnecessary it 100% works both ways

[@josephreynolds2401]

Comp OW doesnt include 6v6 at all so it's not a sub relevant topic. No wonder they're getting dumpstered.

[@魚-c3d]

​@@lavenderlilacsoh, looks like a member of the sub has joined us.

[@nemir6872]

Bro should visit the Overwatch forums if he thinks this is bad.

[@josephreynolds2401]

People looking for honest to God help go to the sub though. They walk away with 100 different terrible takes that pass the glance test.

[@Iceburn76]

@@josephreynolds2401 their first mistake was looking to reddit for anything. You will find only madness and stupidity there.

[@pooclaw]

What if they buffed hanzo’s lunge and made it reset on kill like genji. You could even nerf his primary fire and lean into the ninja archer flanker archetype.

[@MIKEx2112]

I’m dead serious…….the hair is just awesome !!!!

[@soundrogue4472]

37:58 You wouldn't survive playing TF2 then; there is value in defensive more static plays, the problem is when you have no resources you need to feed into that defensive/ static play and I mean things like Pyro's Air blast, Engie's nest and Scout's Sandman. (Things like the kunai, cloak and dagger or the danger shield yeah you got a point) I know this isn't TF2 but my point remains the same It's a GAME DESIGN issue when defensive plays HAVE NO INTERESTING PLAYS! You can have defensive design be interesting even with chess for an example but again you need a COST! Hell my favorite support from league to play, super defensive abilities, ice wall and everything but her value the ice phoenix is having it where you are paying a cost for that defense. The problem with Overwatch is defensive plays or overly defensive plays = free value.

[@purplewine7362]

r/cow is not a better sub than the normal ow one. they just have more ego.

[@Kat-xp8zn]

Here is were you can find those dudes that think reaching top 500 on console with a ximmer means they are skillful players lol

[@Fishrah]

Off topic question for the void: thinking about things like Zen's low key walls and changing the projectile sizes to lower the basic core mechanic skill floor. What if there was an optional visual indicator for 'your reticle is on target'? Would that affect the floor without really disrupting the ceiling? ...I guess it would be really easy to program like a trigger bot to read the indicator pixels...

[@evankalis]

There is a parity associated with supports doing damage vs doing healing. Lifeweaver is a bad support because his cooldowns are only offensively useful in a way that makes his team more predictable.

[@Real_MisterSir]

Spilo reading reddit posts sounds more and more like Samito reading 5v5 comments 😂😂 love ya both. Hope you can stay sane in this increasingly insane community

[@YTHandlesWereAMistake]

I think to stay in this community is already a.. showcase of your mental fortitude, to say the least.

[@vivelespatat2670]

Maxing out your willpower stat has never been this easy

[@OhGeOw]

This is 90% of the PLAYER BASE, not just the subreddit, lost in their own heads

[@thiefpotato2759]

As far as your question about Lucio, I think 6v6 Ana was the only character that took as much skill as current Lucio. I am not trynna make this a 5v5 vs 6v6 debate, just stating my opinion. They just made her anti bot now, so her skill expression is a lot lower now due to her not needing the more situational plays she needed in 6v6. She can just anti the tank and get enormous value. Also, the only characters I disagree with is Kiriko being too high. I think she is never going to be balanced with her current kit. She either continues having the best defensive utility in the game or becomes an unkillable ult bot. I dont see it going anywhere in a healthy way.

[@maxxlawrence3910]

A thing with "skillful characters" Rein, winston, and to a lesser extent Lucio do not require a lot of mechanical skill to get value. Game sense is paramount with EVERY character; but less mechanically intensive characters shouldnt get more value or be more popular. I personally do not get the obsession with rein duels. There is minimal technical skill, its all ability balancing, who gets shatter first, who has the better backline. If Im on Queen or Doom, both characters which require more skill to play and Rein is dominating that matchup theres a problem. Not saying there is nuance to that dynamic, but I am saying that "skill should be rewarded" should be applicable to everything

[@Kintaku]

The idea that Tracer and Genji have problematic design is kinda crazy to me. I thought they have universally been seen as well designed pretty much from the beginning. They’ve gotten slight changes to adjust their space in the meta but there’s a reason they’ve barely changed functionally compared to Heroes like Mercy, Torb and Bastion

[@kodabear3358]

Low skill characters being meta absolutely punishes the low ranks unless they mirror/hard counter

[@willus259]

5:15 - Whilst I agree that particular heroes would hurt other the enjoyment for players (Moira, Mercy, Roadhog as used by Spilo in this example), is Spilo's point that higher skill requirement heroes going to hurt the enjoyment less? I somewhat agree, but I also see that if only the high skilled heroes would be more viable/meta then there's a risk of stale/repetitive gameplay. Then there's also the never ending argument between what's considered "high skill". Hit scan and projectile have different skill requirements and so enjoyers for either will typically say that one or the other is more high skill.

[@thenewmissinglink8501]

15:29 the obvious answer here was clearly Moira✌️, but yeah I learned very quickly that Reddit wasn’t a place for me to talk to people on because people say the most stupid things and get upvoted like it’s true 💀

[@shoppingcart238]

This is the most average reddit moment of all time, they never actually had brain cells it was a façade

[@thousandstar]

............this is why i only play quick play.

[@GentlyRains]

Funny- I don’t even touch Reddit lately

[@hitbyatank]

Lucio and Ana have to be the funnest characters in the game for me. Ana is so simple yet can be so powerful and Lucio is Lucio

[@BlindTheRogue]

"Nobody rolls out on reaper/bastion." Oh....👀 I'm...sorry? 😂

[@wififrfx456]

Reddit is self-harm in general regardless on what ever the topic is, whether it be politics or gaming. People are way too desperate to put post there dogshit opinions without putting any information in their brains first.

[@partyharderson]

Wow what a great idea for the devs to make a character invisible 100% of the time

[@nickmatzke9314]

0:23 haha didn’t expect to see one of my reddit comments on this video. (I’m the reply)

[@Greaseman762]

Every fucking game I’ve played yesterday, like 10ish games, almost every single one I had a fucking mercy player on my team, so fucking annoying

[@Ohyeah100100]

Vindicating to hear you dunk on turbocasual takes

[@ironman1458]

Why? Its a casual game

[@Ohyeah100100]

Because his opinions are similar to mine, but people don't often respect mine like they do spilos​@@ironman1458

[@konrah1486]

@@ironman1458Is that why the game director said their goal was to make the best competitive fps?

[@Excadunked]

Spilo's definitely sending some of these redditers to his lab for further testing 🔬

[@Kiba114]

the sub became bad just how the average player is much worse than before ow2

[@EgoistCat]

"crutch abilities" is a killer

[@AIMLESS-NAMELESS]

Gonna be real, Reddit never had it

[@P-39_Airacobra]

Practically everyone on the overwatch reddit is insane, that's why I left a long time ago.

[@UnshotSpy]

I'm not even a high level player, I've always been a high gold / low silver console player, and I still agreed with pretty much everything in that broken by concept video. These people just don't understand the game and it's insane.

[@shioramenrabbit]

I mean it makes sense, but I don't think that you addressed the outliers in terms of popular characters whose concept is pretty broken (Mercy, Moira, I might even put Sym into that roster). I think the argument there though is that they have a kernel of a very persuasively fun character within them but that OW character design can't really realize that, and if that's the case then maybe, these guys need an OW2 style rework. Mercy and Sym have both been reworked many times now and they can't get them right so I think that honestly something pretty drastic is needed shake-up wise (hell, I'd be all for a villain-era Mercy where they rework her into a assist-based mobility DPS with only a boost and better weapon and no heal except in ult or something). Moira is a weirder one because I actually think you don't need to rework the kit but if you did a hugely dramatic change in numbers to change her flavour it would probably push her into the right direction (lower cooldown on fade, lower heal substantially, increase damage slightly but increase how good your aim needs to be on tracking).

[@jose501504]

All of this would be much better if we had a Torb meta

[@derangedfreackingtwistedps5048]

And then space ranger actually did have speed

[@BrolympicBWL]

1:50-2:10 is why I took a break from OW2. Ana, Tracer, and Winston are the highest skill expression characters in their respective roles. They shouldn’t be out of the meta long if you want a healthy game

[@HalfAryanHunterGatherer]

Not ana lol shes all positioning and hitting dart

[@brown9671]

@@HalfAryanHunterGatherer is positioning and hitting sleep darts not skill expression?

[@negan4269]

​@zercherspecialist127 its not like ana has tough competition in the support category

[@ironman1458]

skill expression and power level are unrelated. you play difficult characters because you like the challenge not because they are the most powerful, the meta, free wins, etc. You want those characters to be perma meta then you are ruining what makes the characters fun and rewarding when any scrub in silver can get wins on "hard characters" If you had this type of logic in any other kind of game people would just laugh at you for failing the skill checks and thinking its the games fault rather than a skill issue

[@ironman1458]

Seriously this is the only "competitive" community where your baby tears would be validated instead of laughed at. I dont understand why this sentiment is so prevalent in overwatch only place I've seen so many bad players console and validate each other for failing skill checks. Losing to a low skill expression character doesnt mean the game is bad it means you are bad at the game, but you all would rather cry on the internet about moira, mercy, whatever, than accept that basic reality. I guess this is why everyone calls this a "baby game"

[@TheBenolan]

10 seconds in, ears bleeding. Achievement unlocked.

[@gengli9030]

If this is the level of the OWL coach, no wonder OWL died.

[@nevergon...9273]

Me and my freind duo one tricked reaper bastion to high masters a few seasons ago, i feel called out:(

[@soundrogue4472]

5:13 I somewhat disagree, niche characters don't hurt the game but rather un fun characters hurt the game. I don't find Hog fun to fight against but if you honestly had it where HP was on his hook, his hook was a projectile and could be damaged. I would have a much better time, punishing Hog for choosing a bad positioning and force Hogs to position themselves better. It wouldn't fix everything BUT would be a start.

[@maniacpwnageking]

Too jank

[@soundrogue4472]

@@maniacpwnageking Not really; we have plenty of characters where destroying their utility makes them shutdown for usage. Though you're likely a hog main.

[@maniacpwnageking]

@@soundrogue4472 Every other breakable object in the game is a deployable. Stupid idea.

[@soundrogue4472]

@@maniacpwnageking Hog Main whining he can't get free value from hook. Your only reasons for why this is a bad idea is because of two things; 1. It's stupid 2. Because only breakable objects in the are "DePlOyAbLe" Are you going to give me any good arguments or are you just going to keep arguing like a typical hog main?

[@bsgsmusic3451]

@@soundrogue4472He does have a point. Having a destructible projectile would be inconsistent with other projectiles and would likely confuse players. Plus, hook’s projectile speed is one of the fastest in the game. You wouldn’t have enough time to break it unless it was 25 HP, at which point you would get situations where hook would break on accident.

[@Discounted]

I once tried giving helpful information for being an effective DPS player on the Overwatch forums (as someone who hit rank 3 DPS EU). The amount of hardstuck sub GM's criticizing me was so ridiculous I gave up trying to help. There's a reason people are hardstuck I suppose, no ability to reflect.

[@Audioclass5]

Sombra’s range is way too far when you combo with virus She can sprinkler you to death from an unreasonable distance

[@greenpig1175]

Sombra has very high mobility, but I wouldn’t consider her an agile hero. Like compare her to Genji or tracer and you’ll see that her in fight movement options are VERY limited