Paleontology News: Theropods Were As Smart as Primates and Developed Culture

How smart were dinosaurs? Were dinosaurs as smart as primates? The debate over theropod intelligence is a continuing one, with factors like EQ and neuron density competing for respect in the scientific community. With isotropic fractionation, we learned that it's possible for dinosaurs as smart as primates to have existed. Megatheropods may have been among the most intelligent dinosaurs. How smart was T.rex? T.rex, if its neuron density was similar to those of its close avian relatives rather than nonavian reptiles, could be smarter than a baboon.
Dinosaur intelligence is a constantly shifting science, but a technique known as isotropic fractionation may hold the key to unlocking the secrets of ancient dinosaur brains. Suzana Herculano-Houzel investigated dinosaur neuron density and discovered that some theropods may have been as intelligent as primates and modern corvids, suggesting complex problem-solving, tool use, and culture building even in the world's largest terrestrial predators.
Links to studies:
Herculano-Houzel 2023: onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/e...
Herculano-Houzel and Lent 2005:
www.jneurosci.org/content/25/...
Capuchin Intelligence: link.springer.com/chapter/10....
Kverkova et al 2022: www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas...
Rogers 1998: www.sciencedirect.com/science...
Image Background: www.vecteezy.com/free-vector/sci-fi-background"

[@TheVividen]

Disclaimer: After reading hundreds of comments here and several expert responses to this study, I have some additional thoughts. It seems that it's swiftly become a misconception that "culture" as mentioned by Herculano-Houzel (2023) refers to human-like societies with complex tool use. In zoology, culture simply means learned group behavior that is shared socially. Many modern animals display culture, including orcas, ravens, dolphins, chimps, and even some fish and insects (Whiten 2021). Neither tool use, vocal language, or nongenetic ritual behaviors are required for culture to be present. Learned group behavior can even occur in animals with far lower neuron counts than those included in Herculano-Houzel's paper. I also want to make it clear (as mentioned in the video) that I personally don't find the idea of tyrannosaurus using tools in the method of primates particularly realistic. It's more likely that they were able to remember and utilize environmental cues to their advantage like elephants (which several of you have touched on in the comments). In addition, while this study is peer-reviewed, conducted by a neuroscientist, and certainly a powerful conversation-starter, it should not be taken as a definitive answer to the question of dinosaurian intelligence. It operates off of the assumption that phylogenetic proximity dictates bird-like neuron density in theropod dinosaurs. It also draws some conclusions that appear to be highly unlikely based on what we currently know (I specifically refer to the idea that Tyrannosaurus reached sexual maturity at 4-5 years of age, which I didn't mention in the video as this was intended to be more of a highlight reel than anything). Science is a sprawling, messy process, and studies that contain valuable information and propel us to further investigation can also contain significant errors. This appears to be such a study. That being said, Herculano-Houzel's work is significant and exciting and shows us a potential new way of estimating the intelligence of extinct taxa that is somewhat more grounded in modern neuroscience than EQ or absolute endocast volume. We do need to wait for more paleoneuroscientists to evaluate these numbers, but let's view it as a technique that can be refined and honed in order to increase our understanding rather than something to automatically attack or blindly accept. Studies Referenced: Dicke and Roth. 2016. Neuronal factors determining high intelligence. Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci 271: 1685. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4685590/ Herculano-Houzel. 2023. The Journal of Comparative Neurology. doi.org/10.1002/cne.25453 Whiten. 2021. The Psychological Reach of Culture in Animals' Lives. Current Directions in Psychological Science 30: 3. doi.org/10.1177/0963721421993119

[@anonperson3972]

Well said. Although as a wildlife biologist that's worked with cetaceans I would push back against the statement that dolphins don't have langauge. They have multiple dialects, and sounds within each dialect that correspond to individual identity, actions and objects. If that's not language I don't know what is!

[@Nika44]

Well dolphins have language. Also parrots and corvids have very high intelligence levels, use tools, some birds use fire as a tool to scare their prey. Corvids are I would say on the tribal level now, I would say parrots and dolphins are similar too. Plus parrots can use human language in context - yes I personally saw that when my quaker parrot is talking, he can use words in context, and many other people who keep parrots as their companions claim the same thing that their parrots at some level understand context of words, and for them it is still learned language not their own. When it comes to other animals language then primates, songbirds, elephant. And we don't know much about that aspect of animals so it may turns out that more animals can use an actual language. than we think. And about theropods...well they are ancestors of birds, and if they were somehow like modern birds then they could be pretty smart.But when it comes to t-rex using tools hmm I don't think it would be physically possible, raptors maybe but t-rex ? Not so much ;) But having high social intelligence like elephants ? Why not?

[@TheVividen]

@@Nika44 @Anon Person Those are great points! I didn't intend to imply that cetaceans didn't use language, just to point out that language is not a requirement for culture to exist. I've also encountered psittacids that have learned how to use English terms in an appropriate context.

[@bkjeong4302]

It should also be noted that given how smart crocodilians are, the idea Tyrannosaurids were somehow exceptional among large theropods in intelligence (which was on the basis of them having larger and more bird-like brains, while other theropods had smaller and more croc-like brains that were supposedly incapable of any significant cognitive capability) no longer has much basis, and that theropods in general were likely fairly intelligent animals. Keep in mind crocodiles are already smart enough to follow basic commands, play, and hunt cooperatively (as in actual cooperation) if needed.

[@yahwea]

... maybe

[@KingofTheGojiras]

I find it funny how the previous study on T-Rex's braincase already stated it could've had chimpanzee level intelligence and now this study talks about certain dinosaurs being able to form complex societies. Even crocodiles are cable of forming mini societies, on top of all the other intellect centered data you mentioned on how smart modern archosaurs are. Truly terrifying to think about.

[@nickmitsialis]

The trouble with crocs is, while they do form 'societies', it's more individual than team work related. They may 'team up' to dismember large prey but they still have the 'largest eats first; anybody who breaks protocol can be killed or eaten too'. I don't think crocs are at the stage of working as a team to hunt prey but who knows? On a possibly related note, There's a recent shark week episode involving tiger sharks who scavenge cow carcasses. Apparently, some times of the year teenage white sharks will join in the feed but the tigers organize in a 'vertical swarm of up to several dozen'--the feeders moved up the column towards the top to feed 'in turn' (Which is unusual because sharks usually feed in order of size), while at the bottom of the column was the largest tiger shark (often an old, scarred mature adult) who seemed to be there to keep the line moving and possibly keep away any interloping sharks from cutting the queue. It might simply be a wrong observation, but it IS interesting to think that this might happen. It's already known that white sharks seem to always be in a group/loose affiliation/school made up of the same individuals, year after year, so who knows?

[@spenceglumer2529]

just use the peaces of the West African bullfrog DNA to bring back t rexes & 2 make monstrous 25 foot large gorilla by genetic recreation in stuff

[@KingofTheGojiras]

@@nickmitsialis Yeah I'll admit crocs was a bad example however that study with the tiger sharks you bring up is interesting, could you link the study please?

[@KingofTheGojiras]

@@spenceglumer2529 What?

[@nickmitsialis]

@@KingofTheGojiras The tiger shark thing is from this year's shark week, for what that's worth. An episode called 'return to headstone hell'. The Tigers operating as a group was an observation by the divers/scientists in that episode that the tiger shark column operated in an orderly fashion, but at the base, near the bottom was a large, scarred up tiger shark. If it's scientific is another issue.

[@dominiquetits8605]

How amazing is it that in 1902, they find some bones and decide to call this animal "the Tyrant Lizard King" and now, years later, with every new discovery we find out how amazing this creature really is, and that it really deserves the title of King. What an amazing animal. Really brings a tear to my eye.

[@rodrigopinto6676]

The ultimate predator

[@andrew9021]

First comment I’ve spotted to refer to this creature as an animal and not a "terrifying hunter/monster/whatever". It may be small, but it’s definitely nice to see.

[@samuelshin593]

Well, the finders of t rex actually predicted a predator like t rex should exist

[@rorschach1985ify]

@@andrew9021 I'd call it a monster more out of respect to it's sheer power and cunning than anything to demean it.

[@pvhep4036]

Like all, current predators, crocs and gators, sharks, lions, tigers, wolves... they are misunderstood. Majesctic, all, in their own right.

[@JohnCena8351]

Everytime we learn more about this creature, T.rex becomes more and more terrifying.

[@justinianthegreat1444]

Imagine if the T-Rex is as smart as an orca, terrifying.

[@deinsilverdrac8695]

Wtf is wrong with t rex They got nerfed down with Haha you are slower than a man and had feather and were more of a scavenger. But now it's It's bite power is the strongest to ever exist, only giant crocodilian and megalodon could maybe surclass it, with bone crushing teeth. They were 2 Times smarter than crocodiles They raise their youngs and live in groups/family It had the second best smell of any vertebrate to ever exist The youngs were actually faster than the adult, and they could hunt with them or be a small game specialist by ontogenic niche partitioning. They would bite the face/skull of triceratops as a feeding behaviour His arms were quite strong in fact They had good eagle like vision They had good infrasonic hearing They could produce a deep low growl that would basically be felt through your body more than heard from your ears. They were more massive and powerfull than any theropod and maybe even longer than giganotosaurus, wich mean he is the largest Theropod to ever existed and only spinosaurus was longer by more than few dozen cm unlike carcharo, mapusaurus and gigano. They had more developped brain than baboons. Meanwhile giganotosaurus is just I have a giga chin and i am a bit longer And spino is Splish splash i am a oversised heron with a newt tail but bad swimming speed that is not a pursuit hunter.

[@JohnCena8351]

@@deinsilverdrac8695 absolute giga chad.

[@NanuqEditzS]

@@justinianthegreat1444 T-Rex had intelligence comparible to primates and those are smarter than an Orca

[@EmiWi]

it truly was the pinnacle of evolution for it's time. Imagine what an even more perfect being looked like.

[@dantewhite9117]

I've said before, and I'll say it again. Never underestimate predator intelligence, regardless of its species.

[@MustardSkaven]

Social creatures tend to be more intelligent. The social factor seems to weigh a lot heavier than the predatory factor.

[@squidward5110]

Oh yeah, this guy hunts 😎

[@CirrowProductions]

This doesn't make sense. So everytime you determine a predator's intelligence, it increases. So predators are infinitely intelligent.

[@samuelaraujomedeiros6682]

@@MustardSkaven Yup. Like elephants. Incredibly intelligent creatures.

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

Parrots are more intelligent, sorry

[@BragoTHEgraviyKING]

As someone else who commented on this topic said "Just because you have all the parts for a car doesnt mean you have a car" I will say the idea sounds awesome, but im not getting my hopes up on a t rex wearing a monocle

[@TheVividen]

As awesome as that would be...I feel that T.rex might be better-suited to aviators

[@samuelscott-schroeder8597]

@@TheVividenAngry upvote.

[@ginam5497]

They would not need them because they see better than birds of prey

[@geraldhuff7413]

@@ginam5497 which is insane to think about considering that t-rex was a grounded predator.

[@ginam5497]

@@geraldhuff7413 Yes

[@taylormccoy8339]

This study has a lot of problems and red flags. I think it would’ve been reasonable to include some of the statements from paleontologists that have been expressing loads of doubt and concern regarding the findings

[@Daily-PE]

I do agree like a ton of the t Rex brain was for senses like smell, and the amount of nutrients for the huge body and smarts would be impossible to feed

[@vinnygranata8363]

I think I’ll look up other paleontologists reactions and thoughts to the study. It’s just so interesting I want to believe it, BUT other professional opinions are in order! This study and what it proposes (potential theropod culture lol) reminds me a lot of the “three” tyrannosaur species study that was shotgun all over the internet not too long ago, I remember a LOT of reactions to it, both professional and unprofessional 😭

[@bbpoisonn]

@@vinnygranata8363 if we leave the culture part out, how probable is it that theropods were actually similar in intelligence to primates like the study suggests?

[@taylormccoy8339]

I’d suggest checking out Dr. Thomas Holtz reaction, it’s quite comprehensive

[@OceanMachine_]

@@taylormccoy8339 where can we find that?

[@christiancinnabars1402]

An important thing to note is that while these therapods would be _capable_ of developing corvid to primate levels of habits and understanding, it doesn't mean they definitely would have nor would it have really benefitted them to do so. It is briefly mentioned in the video, but a T. rex wouldn't really need to use sticks to prod or rocks to smash when it has massive teeth and a crushing bite force. They would probably instead use their intelligence to hone the behaviors that would benefit how they live. Using and improving on strategies that maximize hunting success, recognizing patterns to prepare for certain weathers or other environmental shifts, finding the best ways to rear their young with the lowest fatality rate, etc. So what most people deem as "intelligence," such as grouping together, creating tools, and building structures, won't really be the smartest thing for these animals to delve into. This study tells us approximately what types of concepts they can understand; how they put those concepts into practice is still unknown, and will probably be unknown for a very long time (as good as our guesses can be, they are still guesses in the end).

[@rubrawolf]

I agree. And it might not even be intelligence needed strictly for hunting, it could be rather like elephant intelligence today, where the oldest have detailed and incredibly good memories of where to find water in the midst of droughts, what routes to take that are safe for migrations, and what to avoid that might get a calf killed. That sort of razor sharp memory would be fantastic for a solo giant predator to have. T-rex might not need complex strategies to take down that duckbill, but knowing where to go when drought rolls in, because parents taught it 30 years ago, is great.

[@CS-us1xf]

You wanna see what a hunter animal with high intel looks like just watch any video with Orcas. T. rex could have just straight up toyed with their prey for fun, who knows. Orcas have no hands, but can set bait, traps, utilize their environment such as creating waves to knock seals off of the ice. Just saying, a lot of creative things animals could do. I’m curious to see how something it’s size on land would utilize its environment.

[@officersoulknight6321]

​@@rubrawolfThat's a good way to put it. Updating my comment to this

[@celtofcanaanesurix2245]

I always thought it was weird that scientists thought that dinosaurs weren’t very smart, as it was not in line with the rest of the dinosaur renaissance’s era of rethinking everything we knew about dinosaurs as well as making them more like real animals in our mind.

[@digiquo8143]

For a long time the idea was that intelligent thought progressed at a linear rate in the evolutionary tree and that we were the culmination of all 4.5 billion years of the Earth's goings. The thought that progress towards modern intelligence could have ever been setback or even been already achieved and erased just wasn't in the cards yet.

[@celtofcanaanesurix2245]

@@digiquo8143 that also seems very outdated, even before this discovery, especially since the news that Neanderthals were probably as intelligent as modern humans if not more so (if they were more so, probably their less social nature, only having groups half the size of human groups, and even more spread out being the reason why they didn't quickly develop technology)

[@digiquo8143]

@@celtofcanaanesurix2245 neanderthals and other pre-human hominids were viewed as just dumb apes until as late as the early 20th century. "Modern" scientific inquiry into evolution and higher regard for the intellect of non-human species is very recent.

[@gustaf3811]

@@celtofcanaanesurix2245 That's again hypothesis based on very little to begin with. Neanderthals were not as intelligent as humans, we know that due to having a lot of stone tools made by them. Yes they were much smarter than previously thought, but were they smarter than us? Very unlikely. Why? They had lived in europe for around 300 000 years and their stone tools very not as advanced as later humans who arrived just around 40 000 years ago and were still a very small population up until around 10 000 BC. So the neanderthals had stone tools that became a little more complex when the first homo sapiens arrived in Europe. Coincidence? I think not but the neanderthals were smart enough to mingle with us and have sex with us so they certainly weren't stupid. Neanderthals were definitely on the verge of being as smart as us but homo sapiens had figured out new weapons in a much smaller time frame than the Neamderthals had lived in europe. I think that's enough proof to say we were a bit smarter in some ways the Neanderthals were not.

[@kieferkippy]

@@gustaf3811 They are intelligent, the reason that we manage to be better than them is because accumulation of learned knowledge is slower for small populations. This is also the reason why human technology advance much faster on huge communities and slower in isolated tribes.

[@blobbertmcblob4888]

They certainly weren't stupid, but I doubt T.Rex was out there waging territorial wars and making tools. Like all animals, dinosaurs would have had their own sets of rules, and behaviors and even social structures. They would have been keenly aware of the other animals they shared a territory with. I'm going to use (intact)cats, as an example. Cats are insanely complex when it comes to their social system. They're solitary, for the most part, but can form friendships and even form little gangs. Cats, however, are dominated mostly primal instincts. An intact tomcat is very unlikely to tolerate another intact tomcat in his territory. Same goes for intact females, unless they know each other. But, I remember hearing a story of a big, intact tomcat seemingly mourning the death of another big, in tact tomcat, whom he regularly had territorial clashes with. When that tomcat was hit by a car, the other would regularly come to the spot where he was hit and just...sit there, he did this for several weeks, long after any scent would have been covered up or washed away. Your indoor cat is VERY aware of what goes on outside, you bring in scents whenever you come in and out, you bring in scents on your clothes, scents come in through the window. "Intelligence" is such a blanket term, sullied by the fact that we, as humans, tend to measure "intelligence" in par with our own. But there are many different types of "intelligence". They say that social animals, like wolves, are more intelligent than, say, a leopard, because being after to form complex family groups, and cooperate during a hunt takes direction and planning. Yet leopards, which are solitary, need to be intelligent enough to weigh the pros vs the cons of every hunt. I do not believe that dinosaurs were big, dumb, eating machines. I like to head cannon them having a mixture of mammal and birdlike behaviors and intelligence.

[@ksoundkaiju9256]

Rexes would definitely be territorial

[@Googlysaur]

Obviously tyrannosaurs can’t make tools, nobody said they could. However, they most certainly waged in territorial wars.

[@ksoundkaiju9256]

@@Googlysaur you dont know that if they can pick up a tree log and swing it around, that's a weapon

[@firegator6853]

@@ksoundkaiju9256 why would they do that when they have the strongest jaw to ever exist on land This paper seems to be very odd, they act like neurons are ONLY used for intelligence...neuron numbers don't mean better intelligence and that alone makes the intelligence thing fall apart

[@ksoundkaiju9256]

@@firegator6853 what if something is out of reach?

[@alienstar2088]

Rather saddening to have a species so vastly intelligent go extinct merely due to circumstance. It's always fascinated me on the speculative evolution of Dinosaurs had they not gone extinct, how long would it have taken for a species to develop Humanoid intelligence and what species would that Dinosaur even be?

[@pugasaurusrex8253]

On a positive note, they died so we and many others could live

[@iamThePaleowarist]

Dinosaurs did not go totally extinct, only non-avian dinosaurs did. As for their intelligence, ravens and true parrots are very intelligent animals, and the neo-theropod non-avian dinosaurs most probably behaved and thought as they do, not like humans, forming cultures and societies. Ravens have intelligence comparable to great apes, and they do not form any culture.

[@alienstar2088]

@@iamThePaleowarist Whilst that is technically true, not exactly my thought process. Obviously non-avian Dinosaurs bit the dust but, I prefer to ponder if that was not the case. Also, I'd argue Corvids have what some might consider to be culture. Culture in itself is a loose term because we are only aware of one in the entire universe, ours, but I define culture as different groups of the same animal possessing different ways to complete a task. We see Crows in Yellowstone hunting along side Wolves and even bonding with pups. As far as I'm aware, this is only apparent in Yellowstone to this drastic degree. Whilst it's obvious that Dinosaurs and Corvids do not possess the same level of culture as we Humans do, I like to imagine that, had their extinction not been the case, they'd get there eventually.

[@iamThePaleowarist]

@@alienstar2088 well, we will never know what would have happened if they wouldn't have gone extinct...

[@Mortablunt]

In good news, we don't have to contend with 4 tons of walking teeth with smarts to rival ours! We would never have made it with that out to get us.

[@geraldhuff7413]

If casual geographic has taught me anything it’s that smart animals know it and they make it EVERYONE else’s problem.

[@LeoTheYuty]

It's not like culture is hard to develop, even different flocks of chickens can develop different cultures, doing things in different ways than other flocks, and they're not really among the most intelligent birds.

[@blobbertmcblob4888]

That's not a culture, that's behavioral variant. Culture isn't just as simple as "act different than someone else" because god knows if that was the case then all the Twitter and Tumblr fucktards would be out there trying to claim their "transness" or "gayness" as a culture. Culture takes thousands of years to develop.

[@Betweentheraindrops8]

This makes me want new media depictions of theropod dinosaurs that the general public wouldn’t expect: less of the fast, loud, mammalian type of dinosaurs and more creeping, quiet, eerie behavior. Imagine a utahraptor using forest fires to its advantage like modern wedge-tailed eagles, and picking up a flaming branch and trapping human protagonists in a house or on the edge of a cliff so that the humans either burn or get eaten. Imagine a rex being able to recognize certain material like a large, sharp branch as being useful to stab at a human that might be out of reach, like a raven? Maybe be able to spend enough time watching a local human population that it recognizes certain nouns that get shouted, like dogs do? Or be able to use a stick to test a perimeter fence that might be electric, and then use a branch to push it down and walk over the fence post rather than the electric wiring, like we see elephants do? Creating a decoy like placing an object a human is looking for in a random spot to lure them towards an attack, or even lure the human away so that they can attack someone else who is more vulnerable? Recognizing itself in a mirror, and thus knowing to turn around a corner and pursue a human whose reflection it can see. Essentially, like the scene in JP where the raptor smacked its face on the reflective metal in the kitchen when trying to attack the girl’s reflection...but instead of falling for it, it’d know to round the corner and find her? Destroying human transportation so they can’t escape, or waiting by/in the human’s transportation? Heightened intelligence makes for such innovative scenes.

[@noahd395]

Raptors using fire as a tool was a thing in prehistoric planet! Excited to see it in more media

[@gustaf3811]

That's what we got with fallen kingdom more or less. Very little suggest these animals were on the same level of intelligence as humans or even primates.

[@GeteMachine]

The only way to do it, is if a real reboot of Jurassic Park were to do it. Only because it is where most of the general public gets their impressions of Dinosaurs from. Its what disappointed me so much about Jurassic World. They have no obligation to do anything better, but it would have done the franchise and people better if they did. Considering how Jurassic world ended up being a more chaotic, pseudo-alien monster movie instead.

[@dirt_dert_durt]

"It can't see you if you don't move!" - actually had the best binocular vision in nature "Its brain is the size of a walnut" -actually as smart as or smarter than chimps

[@kysergrovijohn4507]

Now I wonder if the Rex could see them in Jurassic park but just got super confused as to why the small naked monkeys weren’t running

[@TheGrimoiresVoice]

I always think that Grumpy is only a LITTLE accurate. Sure, real Tyrannosaurs were most likely not as intelligent as Grumpy, but as much as I hate that movie, they may have been on to something

[@somethingnotofthisworld2749]

Judging from this study, what was Sauropod’s intelligence comparable to?

[@alioramus1637]

Other sauropsid reptiles. Although papers about the brains of the basal sauropodomorphs buriolestes and thecodontosaurs show that basal sauropodomorps in the beginning of their evolution had similar brains to theropods but with increasing size and herbivory their brain sizes shrunk considerably

[@blobbertmcblob4888]

@@alioramus1637 Herbivores, in general, are "dumber" than predators. Prey animals don't need to spend a lot of time weighing things like pros and cons of an action. If they can outrun their predator, or fight back, that's all they need to know how to do.

[@LmaoMoni]

A cow

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

@@LmaoMoni being Eutherian (one of the most intelligent groups), cows would be much higher on the intelligence scale.

[@homebrewznz3482]

Donald Trump or Tyson Fury

[@Saberrex1]

This may or may not be accurate. The encephalization quotients between reptiles, birds and mammals are not equal. Beyond this, some of the data sets do not add up with the theory. Dr. Thomas Holtz, Jr., one of the foremost experts on Tyrannosaurus and its kin (and one of my favorite paleontologists of all time), had this to say about the discovery: "The author attempted an interesting question: estimate the total number of neurons in the telencephalon (the part of the brain that includes cognition, among other stuff) of extinct dinosaurs. How do you get to that number? The author took the estimated brain size and body size of fossil animals (based on previous studies) as well as comparable data of modern species. Then, using different alternative scenarios, she estimated the Ntel (number of neurons) for the fossils. The regressions included one based on cold-blooded extant animals and one based on endotherms. Here's where input from the paleoneurological community is important!! While it is true that the two major endotherm living groups (birds & mammals) have big brains, dinos didn't. Indeed, the newer generation of paleoneurologists have worked to map out in greater detail the inferred anatomy of dino-brains, their ontogenetic changes, and their diversity. So it is up to the paleoneurology experts to let us know if the values found in the new paper are reasonable, and if not why not. That's not my field. In any case, under the endotherm model, the estimates put big theropods with Ntel values in the primate range. Okay. I'm not equipped to say whether those Ntel values are likely. But at best, that is what the analytical portion of the paper finds. Everything else of significance about this is actually speculation based on these numbers, not actual discoveries. For instance, what does a baboon-like Ntel actually imply for the life and behavioral repertoire for a Tyrannosaurus individual? This is where we need the animal behaviorists who study modern examples to speak up. Do animals with similar Ntel values have similar cognition? And, in particular, what role does body size play in all this. If you have an Ntel equivalent to a baboon but a body the size of an African elephant, does that **really** mean baboon-level 'smarts'? So the author speculates on Tyrannosaurus tool use and other sophisticated behaviors on the basis of an Ntel estimated from one set of regression curves. Which is why people should be very very very cautious about these conclusions. But wait! There's more. And now we run into a case where the paper's conclusion (based on theoretical speculations based on their Ntel estimates) are in direct conflict with actual fossil evidence: life histories. The paper speculates that Tyrannosaurus must have had a life history similar to modern animals with similar Ntel values, so sexual maturity at ~4-5 years old, and life spans of ~42-49. The latter is higher than found in any Tyrannosaurus so far, but not impossible. But a sexually mature T. rex at 4-5 years old?? Although debate remains about the best curve fits for dinosaur growth curves, most of the evidence points toward small body size in Tyrannosaurus during their first decade. Even Jane is only about ~11-13. As shown by previous work, the best evidence for onset of sexual maturity in Tyrannosaurus was about age 13-16, around the same time as numerous other anatomical changes. Now, the idea of sexual maturity at 4-5 in Tyrannosaurus is fitting a mammalian growth pattern onto a non-avian dinosaur. But considerable work has shown that dinosaurs did NOT have such a growth pattern. Most of the total life span was NOT as adults.And I am NOT discussing mortality rates here. This isn't about the fact that most of them died young. This is about the nature of the dinosaur growth curve as reconstructed by multiple researchers. This makes non-avian dinosaurs different from their extant kin. Modern birds do have the potential for (relatively speaking) long adult lives. In both the case of Aves and Mammalia this may be the result of lower rates of young per clutch/birth. So, getting back to this paper, the attempt to force a mammalian life history based on a number of telencephalic neurons estimated from brain/body size doesn't match the fossil record. So, I'm not saying that the paper's primary analytical conclusion (the Ntel values) are actually wrong. I await what the paleoneurologists say about their interpretation. I'm not saying that the behavioral conclusions are demonstrably wrong. We can't say that at this time. What I can say is that I find it hard to justify the speculations based on the data and methods used, and I await additional comments from relevant subject experts." Suffice to say I agree with Dr. Holtz's analysis of the paper mentioned in this video, and I am of the conclusion that we need more evidence to either vindicate or rebuke this theory. If it should prove correct, then it means Tyrannosaurus was the most intelligent predator of its time and far more dangerous and majestic than we could have ever assumed, but if this theory should prove false, then perhaps the rebuttal of this evidence presented by Suzana Herculano-Houzel may help us determine the true intelligence of such dinosaurs as Tyrannosaurus rex and give us a better idea of what they were truly like.

[@ferociousrazordino3581]

I agree

[@ferociousrazordino3581]

But personally i think its about as smart as a cat or dog

[@Saberrex1]

@@ferociousrazordino3581 It could be that tyrannosaurs were as smart as ravens, for all we know. They have less telencephalic neurons than baboons and they are still smarter than baboons are.

[@kandyeggs]

I think another important counter to this paper’s conclusion is that a significant amount of neurons are used in interpreting sensory input. An animal with such immensely powerful senses of vision and smell would require a massive amount of neurons to interpret and remember those experiences. Sensory capability is not the same as “intelligence,” which we normally consider akin to problem solving. Chickens, for example, have extremely complex language and social behaviors (which they are born with, and aren’t learned), but are infamously poor at problem solving challenges they aren’t instinctively prepared to deal with, such as fences that they can mostly see through. I think a much safer conclusion to come to is that Tyrannosaurus could accurately form and recall memories attributed to sensory experiences more than jumping to assuming it had non instinctual methods of communication.

[@ferociousrazordino3581]

@@kandyeggs this paper is just about the telencephalon, not the whole brain. But yes it's true it would be way mroe complex than just neurons=neurons so baboon and rex are the same intellect, because t rex also has other things

[@comradejojo8412]

if this gets accepted and does not get counter'd by another discovery, this opens the gate for nearly zero answers and a lot of questions, How could a 10+ ton predator's culture be? Or what would they do with their tool using capabilities? Did they mourn the deaths of their comrades like corvids? These animals were probably cannibals, if they were smarter than corvids, this makes them close to elephant intelligence (probably not as much) was T.rex as ritualistic or emotional as an elephant, elephants buried the dead and would visit them, would a predator like do such things as well?

[@tozarkt9805]

I was thinking of how tool use would translate to a 10 ton predator, not only rocks, but maybe things as large as tree logs. Imagine a T Rex chasing a triceratops to a ditch it partially dug, or logs hidden by gathered ferns to trip up the animal!

[@HORRIOR1]

@@tozarkt9805 I doubt T-rexes would use tools or dig and set up traps. Their arms are far too primitive, the only thing they could use to grab something with is their jaws, and the only way they could dig would be with their feet, meaning if they fell into their own trap they would struggle to get out. An animal like T-rex would showcase their intelligence in a different way. Using blind spots of their target to sneak up on prey. Staying upwind to not let their prey smell them. Recognizing vulnerabilities in the defenses of other dinosaurs. etc.

[@Rhaenarys]

Tool use would also equal something like making a nest. While it wouldn't be a tool itself, they could use logs and rocks to form a protective nest for their young. They could've also used large trees to get at an itch on their back they can't reach like bears. Tool use doesn't mean picking up a stick to poke termites. There's many different ways of tool use, or environmental manipulations.

[@potaterjim]

You might enjoy the book series Farseer by Robert Sawyer. It's a fiction wherein T-Rexes survived and evolved to form a human like society. There's a bunch of fun little details about how their instincts shape their culture, such as requiring large amounts of personal space because of their territorial nature

[@homelochino3864]

the culture would probably be like the all tomorrows bone crushers or like chickens but more advanced, so basically pretty violent and primitive since you know, little arms

[@animationunlimited2958]

Jurassic Park 3 just aged surprisingly well!

[@ArawnsFire]

Once again, life imitates art. In the Jurassic Park franchise Dr. Alan Grant compared theropod intelligence to primates and dolphins.

[@germanscience7246]

Raptors watching theoropods get hyped up as smarter while pack hunting for them gets disproven: *THEY CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT*

[@GODEYE270115]

Year after year, decade after decade, Rex gets more and more terrifying and widens the gap with other predators. Proving again and again why it’s the King of Dinosaurs 👑 Could intelligence also explain why they inflicted so much brutality on each other? Especially compared to other theropods

[@trigz8626]

Usually forget that: Year after year, decade after decade, Trex get more and more studied than other predators, making him one of the best if not the best known dinosaurs. Its hard to compare something we know at 95% to something we know at 50%, because of course Trex will have more features than other since we are still trying to understand what giga and spino are looking like while we are at the state of wondering if Trex had monkey intelligence. Its like saying that a mineral vein is bigger than another one because we have been digging it for years and that we only see a small piece of the other. Who knows, the other vein could be bigger or smaller, only time will tell. Thats the funny part with paleontology, most of it is pure hypothesis until proven right.

[@rodrigopinto6676]

@@trigz8626 T. rex was the ultimate predator, the pinnacle of the theropod dinosaurs.

[@GODEYE270115]

@@trigz8626 I get your point, other theropods aren’t nearly as studied. But Rex having so many advantages over the rest and it being the final generation of predatory dinosaurs, kind of cements it being the pinnacle of theropods no?

[@creekkdrake1370]

no lie This beast full of power

[@subotnai1]

Clever girl 😶‍🌫️🥷🏽🥷🏽🥷🏽

[@niallmoseley6760]

Ive also thought if theropods were bird like they should be intelligent. And now we can realistically start imagining smart t rexes, smart spinosaurus and the jurassic park big brain raptors. This is awe inspiring stuff!

[@Dr.IanPlect]

"Ive also thought if theropods were bird like they should be intelligent" - it's the reverse! Birds are theropod-like because...they ARE theropods!

[@niallmoseley6760]

@@Dr.IanPlect very true, but because they came earlier we see them as more primitive. But apparently thats not necessarily true

[@OK-wh5vt]

This is not really true, most of them had crocodiles like brains Still doesn't meant they weren't smart

[@kyleellis1825]

Start imagining? Theropods have been given human level intelligence in movies since at least JP 1.

[@Dr.IanPlect]

@@niallmoseley6760 At the same time, don't overstate a tentative paper.

[@Gray-Wolf]

I think them inventing an advanced culture may be a bit too far, I think this is interesting and an amazing discovery but I don't think what we'd see as an advanced culture being invented by theropods is rather unlikely, who knows though, maybe they had a culture similar to that of crows and ravens. Edit: I will say it doesn't surprise me that T. rex is smarter than things like ravens and crows, especially since, as you said, ravens and crows are quite smart and solve puzzles.

[@superlegomaster55]

Even orcas today have cultures but its not like ours.

[@riotbreaker3506]

You should know that ravens and crows have cultures as well.

[@Gray-Wolf]

@@riotbreaker3506 I feel like I heard that in a article or something, I guess when I think culture I think religion and totems lol

[@Gray-Wolf]

Thank you for the corrections! When I think culture I think advanced human culture so I went ahead and edited the comment accordingly, thank you again :)

[@rubrawolf]

Don't think of culture as human culture. For ex, baboons live in very intricate societies with clear striations in social structure and behavior, and that's THEIR culture, they teach it actively to their babies. But nobody's holding sweet sixteen parties. So rexes could have detailed behaviors and interactions with each other, hierarchies and expected actions they pass on to their chicks. Nothing more than birds and mammals do all over the place today, but we don't think of big dum dinos being able to, with the exception of much hyped up raptors.

[@dynamoterror18]

I once found out some years back that triceratops' neuron score was over a billion, which is comparable to a horse. 🐴 I learned this from another video I saw a few years ago and I tried to find it again to see what source it used to compare the findings, but I sadly wasn't able to find it after looking longer than an hour for it. Still though, with a neuron score of 172 million, triceratops was smarter than most rodents, rabbits, bats, mouse lemurs, ferrets, hedgehogs, shrews, waterfowl, and landfowl.

[@alioramus1637]

he also said some ornithischians scored fairly high except triceratops it seems. which other ornithischians scored well?

[@dynamoterror18]

@@alioramus1637 Likely the ornithopods.

[@sonofjack6286]

@@dynamoterror18 Makes sense. And I'd picture a hadrosaur to be smarter than a ceratopsian anyways.

[@turtle5086]

Triceratops scored a billion neurons if it was a warm blooded but they assume it wasnt so they gave it a 170 million neurons the paper says. But realistically it was a warm blooded animal so having a billion neurons seems on point.

[@alioramus1637]

@@turtle5086 That's interesting. I always viewed all dinosaurs as endotherms. But a paper in 2022 conclude that dinosaurs were ancestrally warmblooded but some ornithischian lineages later evolved to be gigantotherms like ceratopsids, ankylosaurs and stegosaurs.

[@Ledecral]

I think I’m a bit middle of the road on this. I agree that they likely had greater POTENTIAL intelligence than the EQ model estimates, but we can’t be sure what their brains were used for. A T-Rex would likely be more in the intelligence range of a bear, since like a bear, it likely used a lot of its brain for a keen sense of smell. Still, this would’ve varied from species to species, and since we will never discover every species that ever lived, the possibility that a couple of dinosaur species developed culture isn’t impossible.

[@sui1162]

I feel like the jurassic park movies may have gotten the Tyrannosaurus rexs intelligence right. In the first movie its seen as extremely curious of the tour vehicles and managed to stealthy sneak up on the Velociraptors at the end. In the second movie theyre shown as intelligent, careing parents. Also they knew better than to attack the trailer that the baby rex was in and only attacked it after the baby was "safe". T rex in the third movie was young so we wont talk about him. In jurassic world the t rex is shown to make some sort of truce with blue after killing the indominus rex. Fallen kingdom doesnt really get much t rex action. In dominion its shown to hold grudges against other animals and also we see the buck and doe from the second movie at the end, still a couple. This suggests not only that tyrannosaurus, when they find a partner they stay with that partner for life, but were very sociable creatures that enjoy eachother company. Idk, I know that its just a movie and isnt really comparable to IRL dinosaurs, but for something as impact full such as jurassic park to get it right seems kinda neat.

[@Mikailodon]

Nice explanation!

[@jaromor8808]

this is actually borderline crazy

[@edwardoavila7666]

If this is true then predatory dinosaur behavior would be a strange mix of cats and birds, which is a pretty terrifying idea.

[@lakelewis8968]

Well this absolutely blew my mind

[@superfogg886]

Didn't watch the video, but long short story, the study says they have a lot of neurons in a certain region of the brain. In modern animal that region is related to elaboration of complicated operation, but in animals of that time it was basically the region related to processing olfactory information. So, congratulation! You showed that the T.Rex has a good sense of smell

[@chrisrandom1404]

Seeing a photo of Daspletosaurus Wilsoni does this mean there will be a video coming soon covering that discovery?

[@YOUR_DEATH_8_8]

That movie Land Of The Lost was ahead of it's time. Will Ferrell kept saying T-Rex had the brain the size of a walnut then the T-Rex throws a prehistoric walnut at them and it's the size of a car. 🤣

[@TheMysticSaint]

Thanks for bringing this research forward, I love learning about all the latest papers...without having to spog through research papers. 👍🏻 Also, as far as production goes, the music was awesome, might I ask what it is and where you got it? I'm kinda hoping it's just free background KZbin music. 🙂

[@tommytiger7459]

I would imagine them raising their young and teaching them everything they need to know. I always had a theory that t Rex lived in packs that would be similar to a wolf pack.

[@williamsparks1521]

Fascinating. An animal such as Tyrannosaurus Rex with such physical attributes that is even close to a Raven cognitively is terrifying. I happen to feed Ravens in my backyard and their group behaviors are extremely interesting.

[@JO-kp6lk]

And thank you, Dr. Alan Grant !

[@kuitaranheatmorus9932]

Yet again a really awesome video

[@garywebster3585]

Did T Rex ever stumble upon a Gorgonopsid fossil and say to itself " whatever happened to those little critters ? I'll have to give this some thought"

[@srobeck77]

No but it prolly imaged humping yur mom

[@gameknight_5203]

While I’m hesitant to believe this, I’m genuinely curious and interested in this, it is sad that we will never truly know. But it is quite interesting to know that perhaps we weren’t the most socially advanced category of animals

[@lovepeople777]

thinking about a dromaeosaurid using a stick to dig up termites like a chimp is one of the coolest thoughts ever

[@dinos9441]

Cool channel! News is always interesting)

[@deinsilverdrac8695]

Neurons doesn't= intelligence. Just impressive abilities. For exemple senses, rex had very large olfactive system and it may had millions of neurons dedicated to only that.

[@rodrigopinto6676]

The Tyrannosaurus rex was the ultimate predator, this animal was the pinnacle of the theropod dinosaurs.

[@jessehoffman2726]

Yes. Exactly. The t-rex had superior vision and a superior sense of smell to probably stay away from scout Apatosuaruses that were proactively protecting their newborns, as one solid hit from a supersonic tail swipe from one of those much larger and much stronger dinosaurs would have KO'd and/or severly crippeled any adult rexie. Perhaps some of the Cerotopsian species (who were stronger and more agile than the Rexies) may have subscribed to the same idea that "the best defence is a great offense" when it came to protecting the vulnerable in their herd as well.

[@franciscomoutinho4390]

Being Brazilian, just like Suzana. you don't need to make the spanish accent, in Brazil we speak portuguese so...

[@doslobos2989]

Lovely trumpet on the outro... more!

[@Sonstbenannt]

Thank you for that kind of video.

[@TheGreenKnight500]

Birds are theropods and many of them are quite intelligent, even ones that aren't predatory, like parrots. Therefore, it's not too far fetched to imagine a T-Rex having the intelligence of a raven or parrot. That makes me wonder if any of them would have been able to learn to mimic human phrases like ravens and parrots can.

[@Koraxus]

many birds like mockingbirds and lyres can immitate other bird sounds and even alarms it wouldn't be that surprised if some dinosaurs could. however, I believe most of them lacked the syrinx birds use for complex sounds

[@slimeinabox]

“We found bones, did math on them, did math on that, then did math on THAT and Dinos were _really_ *_REALLY_* smart for lizards.”

[@brodofraggins4688]

Good thing they weren’t lizards

[@slimeinabox]

@@brodofraggins4688 Bruh. They’re lizards.

[@brodofraggins4688]

@@slimeinabox nope. Archosaurs which also includes crocodilians. Birds are dinosaurs in case you didn’t know.

[@slimeinabox]

@@brodofraggins4688 Oh wow. Weird.

[@ravenouself4181]

This reminds me of the movie "Land of the Lost" where the MC insults a T-Rex by saying "it has a walnut-sized brain", and the T-Rex responds by bringing a giant car-sized walnut.

[@alexrivera-vr8id]

I really enjoyed the content, however the audio in this one was atrocious. Are you using a windscreen at all?

[@VictorianTimeTraveler]

It does make sense but I'm going to think about this for a while. (and read the study)

[@TheVividen]

That's always best practice!

[@thelaughinghyenas8465]

With that level of intelligence, could some of the smaller dinosaurs like troodontids have actually evolved sufficiently capable hands to build a culture? Another five or ten million years could have done it. Or was the remains of the dinosaur civilization long ago destroyed by geologic processes? Great for writers!

[@Spino256]

Sauropods: Has turtle like intelligence. (Extinct) Does not have relatives. Theropods: Smart as crocodiles. Closely related to fowls and ratites. Raptors: Smart as birds. As these dinosaurs evolved into birds, their brain became larger in size and smarter. Raptors are more closely related to songbirds and corvids than fowls and ratites. These dinosaurs even became smarter.

[@BearBrews]

I hope we're able to find a way to see what their patterns looked like. I know that's not likely but I want to dream haha. I like to imagine that many species had bright, intricate markings or feathers as displays. Either for finding a mate or social dominance. I wonder how their social structures were.

[@rockmuncher_98]

i find it funny how some people in the comment simply cant accept that a reptile could be as intelligent as a mammal lmao

[@mhdfrb9971]

Yup. Birds are also reptiles

[@rockmuncher_98]

@@mhdfrb9971 precisely my point.

[@Ligerbee]

Mammals can be considered reptiles too. technically

[@rockmuncher_98]

@@Ligerbee kinda but it’s a very big stretch

[@OK-wh5vt]

Its not that, but the paper is messing out a lot of things and jumping on conclusions way too quickly

[@cyberflightfpv4184]

It's so refreshing to finally see a video that is making awesome and exciting claims AND names names and cites objective evidence. Thank you

[@kennethsatria6607]

Good god they were predatory elephants, I kind of doubt tool use or even need to, but they definitely could have strategized or maybe had a complex language to impart information to one another. Maybe even if they didn't live in family groups they could socialize relatively peacefully like rhinos.

[@TheVividen]

Your idea of language is really interesting. I remember reading about baboons being able to recognize multiple words in sequence, so it certainly seems possible that animals of higher neuron count might be able to perform similarly.

[@chrisrandom1404]

@@TheVividen it's not surprising. Whales have their own unique language to communicate. Would it be that hard to think therapods could do the same?

[@firegator6853]

peacefully is an interesting term for an animal found so commonly with holes on the skulls which come from intraspecific combat

[@Azureblue25]

@@firegator6853 Then again, while it is possible that T. Rex may have lived in small groups, it’s also possible that small groups would’ve been territorial towards other groups that enter their territory, kinda like wolves, it could explain why we commonly see evidence of injury like the holes you mentioned on T. Rex because there’s a chance that these territorial clashes could’ve been common occurrences.

[@kennethsatria6607]

@@firegator6853 Only with rivals or in disputes, elephants and rhinos and hippos can do both agressive interaction with rivals and peaceful ones with family as opposed to some lizards easily cannibalizing younger members of their kind just for being too close.

[@papasmoke2982]

This whole video reminds me of that convo in the beginning of JP3 where Alan Grant talks about raptor intelligence

[@amandaburnham.8817]

This makes a lot of sense. Most hunting predators are much more intelligent than their prey in part due to the higher evolutionary pressures to capture or scavenge food. There's also the higher calories and more nutrient dense food they are consuming. All of this is theorized to have facilitated human brain development, why not in dinosaurs too? If this trend is widespread in today's animals, and likely in dinosaurs, then probably all life in some form as well. Very interesting

[@Remhad]

I always thought about this. Crazy how my mind predicted it. They just looked different, especially the Rex. They look so smart- something other worldly smart.

[@Dr.IanPlect]

drivel

[@herpderp3916]

I could see dromaeosaurs being intelligent on the level of corvids, but I'm not so sure about big theropods like rex. I was under the impression most of their brain was dedicated to sensory processing, rather than critical thinking.

[@blobbertmcblob4888]

Doesn't mean much, bears have a sense of smell that is almost 1000 times better than a bloodhound. Yet they're still capable of planning and can even be pretty devious by animal standards.

[@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8]

@@blobbertmcblob4888 bears don't also have bird of prey esque vision

[@andreafleming9022]

Hi vividen can I ask you a question.Can you make the math that you use for purussaurus and calculate Sarco size

[@ZonarohGaming]

I feel like with creatures like Tyrannosaurus or Alioramus, what their intelligence would look like could be similar to Orcas/Killer Whales. These would be things like setting traps/ambushes along migration paths that get used for generations, passing on knowledge of how to better hunt certain prey items, and also being able to work communally either in proper packs or in small family units for both play and survival

[@casek6930]

Anyone see that video where a caged eagle baits a crane (or something similar) with meat and when the crane snipes it the eagle grabs its head? Well that's how I imagine Theropods utilizing smarts.

[@captainnyet9855]

Multiple species of heron have also been observed using bait to catch fish.

[@ravagerlizard9800]

We should never underestimate the intelligence of any animal honestly a vast majority of them are smarter than you think, this does not surprise me at all, hell ravens are one the smartest birds alive along with parrots etc. As far as Lizards goes the monitor lizard has intelligence comparable to mammals also. AND just imagine how smart the dromeosaurid dinosaurs were!!

[@peterweinmann3722]

Waranarten und tejus sind nicht dümmer als Katzen. Reptilien allgemein sind nicht dumm Echsen und schildkröten sind schlaue Kerlchen

[@LARPing_Services_LLC]

I gave this video a chance without the best of expectations (there are just so many shitty "scientific" channels around, full of dumb and sensationalistic speculations), only to be gladly surprised by a well done summary of an actual scientific paper, rounded up with sensible, thought-provoking conclusions. Liked and subscribed. Keep up the good work, mate!

[@MylotheZooLovingScientist]

I don't know if I'm making a connection where there isn't one (I'm not a paleontologist, just interested in the field!), but it wouldn't surprise me if the higher-ranking ornithischians we saw on that graph were hadrosaurids, given their social nature and what we know about their capacities for creating / hearing complex vocalizations and for strong parental behavior. The prominence of theropods on that graph is really exciting, though; honestly, I've yet to consider what sorts of things they might have been doing with such intelligence. Really fascinating study, with fun and fascinating implications. I'd be curious to see how it's been received in the scientific community, and if there are any major opponents of or counterclaims against utilizing this vs. the EQ.

[@Lycan3303]

T Rex was peak evaluation

[@Ligerbee]

nah

[@rodrigopinto6676]

@@Ligerbee yes T. rex was the ultimate predator

[@Ligerbee]

@@rodrigopinto6676 Dragonfly?

[@Saurophaganax1931]

It kind of makes sense that T. rex would be insanely smart. Just think about the problems that an adult T. rex had to overcome. It’s an active predator, but it’s slow, incredibly slow. On top of that it’s tall, really tall. These are not good traits for sneaking up on and chasing down prey. And the handful of prey species, that it feasibly catch, ran the gauntlet from slow and probably solitary, but extremely dangerous; like Triceratops and Ankylosaurus, to swifter and more social Hadrosaurs, which were still pretty dangerous, on top of being nearly impossible to sneak up on. Honestly, despite T. rex’s famed strength, taking down one of these animals, without the aid of some kind of complex planning feels like a herculean task. Even with the aid of higher intelligence it still feels like it would have been a crap shoot, with T. rex failing more often than not simply due to the sheer formidable defences of its prey.

[@firegator6853]

thats the reason the study does not convince me...thats literally what all predators do they learn how to take down prey if a predator is less intelligent than that it simply will die before reaching adulthood and the size is not really a problem, keep in mind that the slow tall and big trex hunted prey that was also slow tall and big, and hell creek was an environment with lots of vegetation it was probably easy for a tyrannosaurus to perform ambush tactic and even if not, the foot structure of tyrannosaurus is designed so it looses less energy when running, even if slow it could probably catch the prey with stamina and would be a good explanation why the animals it lived next to are literally the biggest of their group....triceratops? biggest ceratopsian, ankylosaurus? biggest ankylosaur, edmontosaurus? second biggest hadrosaur

[@mhdfrb9971]

Then why Troodontids are so smart even though they're not the largest?

[@Fernsarenice]

@@mhdfrb9971 Troodon is a wastebasket of a name, and it takes a lot of calories to sustain a large brain and a large body, it would be extremely difficult especially for a carnivore and that's probably why they ended up being smaller, so if the troodon was actually smart I can't answer that question, I gave reasons why it wasn't the largest

[@mhdfrb9971]

@@Fernsarenice i said Troodontids not Troodon.

[@Fernsarenice]

@@mhdfrb9971 I was just shortening troodontids to troodon

[@JMoose]

Very interesting video. I think you might need a new microphone though, because those S's hurt my ears 😅

[@procow2274]

I thought something was up when i saw Rexy playing with a abacus 🤔

[@ZephLodwick]

This makes T. rex even scarier as a predator.

[@tyrannotherium7873]

I find it very hard to believe that Tyrannosaurus rex is smart as a primate I wouldn’t go that far it’s smart or may be smarter than a crocodile but not the level of primates

[@TheVividen]

I'm curious to learn more about that thought. I recommend reading over the study for sure!

[@foxxtitan7028]

Well nobody ask you to believe it. It's not a religion it's a scientific thesis with proofs. Go counter proove it then. So for now, it is how it is, right know.

[@tyrannotherium7873]

@@foxxtitan7028 What does religion have to do with anything I just find it very hard to believe because Tyrannosaurus may be a smart animal but it doesn’t have the brain intelligence of a primate

[@tyrannotherium7873]

Even Dr. Thomas Carr a paleontologist who studies tyrannosaurs even says that its brain was more crocodile than bird

[@foxxtitan7028]

@@tyrannotherium7873 What you don't get is whatever someone could say, paleontology is a field where everythings can changes tomorow, and everyrhing can happen. It is in constant evolution and changes. Nothing is set up in the stone. And anybody can chalenge already established things with work and proofs.

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

There's literally no way. They don't have the niche to need such intelligence.

[@davidhughett6081]

Fascinating!

[@nigerjohnson4977]

Rex favortism has always been annoying now its just gettin outta hand. And yea it might be one of the most common large theropod fossils, that doesnt mean those other giants dont have any that are also researchable.

[@TheVividen]

I'd absolutely love to see this technique applied to other megatheropods. Learning about how intelligence varied depending on clade and environment would be fascinating.

[@antoniocenteno1483]

Bro, T Rex was simply more developed, this ain´t fanboysm, it´s science

[@nigerjohnson4977]

@@antoniocenteno1483 so apply this lvl of research to other dinosaurs then.

[@kennethsatria6607]

@@nigerjohnson4977 Rexes have a history of continuing research due to good remains though, its not our fault some animals have worse luck fossilizing, even Rex has had its fair share of critics and counter arguments like the infamous scavenger hypothesis, but picking on them just cause they're popular is not any better than favoritism.

[@nigerjohnson4977]

@@kennethsatria6607 tell me the line where I was picking on them.

[@stickempires2608]

Forget what movie it was but the main Dino you follow had a rival which was a trex that killed an Anky by dropping a boulder on it. I think they definitely could have used traps and planning as well as social structures and customs in their small groups. Like killer whales in South America who beach themselves to grab things like seals. Definitely and interesting thing to look at. There is very few animals that have no intelligence at all and are just 100% driven by instinct and nothing else.

[@walter1383]

Using more advanced hunting behaviors seems like the most reasonable outcome, such as deliberately herding/pursuing prey into a dead-end gully to prevent escape, rather than risking a failed hunt on more open terrain. Otters and orcas do this as well.

[@stickempires2608]

@Demonstration yes thats the one ty

[@Spiny_21]

Does this apply to the 2 other groups in the theropod family known as the therisinosaurids and ornithomisaurs

[@taiko1237]

1:11 Correction: The book in question states that T. rex was ‘about as smart as a chimp’. An EQ of that level is actually reasonably high. A quick search tells me that chimps have approximately the same EQ (2.2-2.5) as a T. rex, as it states in the book.

[@minutemansam1214]

EQs are not translatable between birds, non-avian reptiles, and mammals. You need different formulas as these clades have very different brains. When using reptile EQ formulas, T. rex's EQ measures at a whopping 0.447.

[@creekkdrake1370]

This killer machine (trex) is pure of power, Smells, size, sight, bite force, this predator is so fearsome

[@rodrigopinto6676]

T. rex was the ultimate predator

[@stegotyranno4206]

Please stop exaggerating the claims of an already grotesquely exaggerated study.

[@akashselvam]

This study is wack lmao

[@stegotyranno4206]

@@akashselvam next thing you know Tyrannosaurus had a language haha

[@akashselvam]

@@stegotyranno4206 this feels like the hadrosaur breathes fire study lmao 🤣

[@stegotyranno4206]

@@akashselvam almost. More like the "overpowered hadrosaur can defeat any carnivore" theories

[@lorddarthfire1560]

I suggested that to my school teacher when i was younger with the idea that in the past 66 millions years anything they may had done would be by far too long gone and she laughed at me

[@CHAD-RYAN]

Turns out that they really were actually angry because they had all them teeth and no tooth brush.

[@jislh9453]

This could explain the tyrannosauroid bone beds

[@TheVividen]

That would make sense. Intelligence often comes from a social pressure

[@christosangelopoulos7694]

Why is it that T-Rex becomes more terrifying every day?

[@SilntObsvr]

As you're running through this research, I'm getting flashbacks to the *Dinosaurs* TV series from years ago -- daddy goes off to work with boots, vest, hard hat and lunch box, mama stays home to manage the house, teenager rebels (but, being family TV, always comes around by the end of the episode) and baby says "Not the Mama!" to anyone who isn't mama....

[@myleswelnetz6700]

When I hear the word “primate”, I usually think of the great apes (chimpanzees, bonobos, orangutans, gorillas, and humans). The therapods were obviously smart, but NOT THAT smart.

[@petersmythe6462]

Keep in mind 2 things here. 1. Vertabrate muscle cells are binary on/off. Unlike arthropods where control a single analog signal can tell a muscle made of many cells how strongly it should activate, you need a giant muscle controller to control large numbers of vertebrae muscle cells, as well as appropriate control logic to translate an analog signal into a bunch of nonmultiplicative digital ones. 2. neurons, like most cells, have proportionally lower metabolic (and therefore clock) rates in larger organisms. 3. the barriers to brain i/o scale based on area, not volume. And the barriers to distribution of information within the brain probably have a fractal dimension of like 2.25.

[@isaacA38]

in prehistoric planet the trex couple hunted during night (cuz they had better vision at night than prey) and set up a simple trap. One crack a noice to scare the pray to run in a planed direction where a second trex waited to jump in. That was such a cool thing to see

[@haroldotrotter9148]

New sub!

[@KingofGeo]

I liked it better when they could only see movement, it was like red light green light...

[@ministerofjoy]

Thank you

[@DirMichaelDavid]

brilliant

[@thenerdbeast7375]

I think the biggest implication for this is the possibility of complex social structures. We know because of dentition juvenile T.Rex likely mostly fed themselves but with this recent research into the complexity of their brains, T.Rex likely could still have strong family bonds not only recognizing their own young but socializing with them as well.

[@l-nolazck-rn24]

God, I'm so gonna remember this

[@FloatingOer]

A lot of animals have regional dialects/language, like birds of the same species making different songs/dialects in different geographic locations, this is also a form of culture. And we know that dolphins give themselves names (specific sound combinations that is used only to call on that specific dolphin), not to mention their pack hunting tactics, as well as cooperating with other species (like humans) to have a more successful hunt. And complex mating behavior could also be considered as a ritualistic behavior, which even the "stupidest" of birds engage in. It is even common among birds to find a lifelong mate rather than just simply mating and moving on, swans, penguins etc. Meercats have a vocabulary for specific animals and colors, warning sounds and reference to individuals, they also take turn to act as sentinels/guards while the rest of the flock go about their day. So there is a lot more to what culture than one might first think, and it's interesting how this sort of behavior could look like in more complex forms among dinosaurs.

[@SpazzyMcGee1337]

I'm not terrified so long as t-rex didn't invent a counter to anti-tank rifles.

[@tapewerm6716]

I have thought about this concept before! Even since I accepted the idea that birds are direct descendants of theropod dinosaurs, and I after understanding just how intelligent some birds and even reptiles are, I have wondered just how smart some dinosaurs may have been. The time spans involved, also, would erase any evidence of technology, tools etc. There were dinos with prehensile hands. I know there were was no human speech to mimic back then (most likely), but it's crazy to think of a dino doing what parrots and corvids do as far as human speech. If they ever make another Jurassic Park movie, it would be cool if they included a talking dinosaur.

[@astridvvv9662]

I've made friends with a mated pair of American Black Vultures over the last 5 or so years and let me tell you, they are SMART. And they are REALLY curious. All the time. About everything. This is how my boyfriend and I first made their acquaintance-they were fascinated by watching us do stuff. Also, they have a sense of humor and very much have their own individual sense of identity. They come right up to us, eat from our hands and use their beaks to feel our knees, elbows, toes, etc. They are extremely sensetive and gentle with their beaks. They play and enjoy puzzles. They absolutely recognize individual human faces. I have a vulture album on my phone where I save all their pictures. Right now it has 657 images. I totally imagine theropod dinosaurs when watching them. It's easy to visualize.