Pathfinder 2E: Persistent Damage

A breakdown of 5 general rules for Persistent Damage. Then a look at ways characters can get persistent damage. We start out slow and work our way up. First there is persistent damage that goes off on critical hits. This is spells, weapon critical specialization effects and ancestries. Then we move up to slightly better, spells with a save. Then the dual weapon warrior's flensing slice. Then rogues. Then monks. Then spells and attacks that deal persistent damage on hits...not just critical hits. Then a special look at the Oracle of Flames. Then the heavy hitters. Wild Druids, Alchemists and the Paladin.
I'd wish I could have added a couple more things into this one. As it is, I cut a lot of fluff out for time. But I would have liked to show how Persistent Damage works with damage averages. What is neat about persistent damage is, since there is a flat check, and the target might still have the persistent damage on the next round, you are going to add in a small amount of damage on the second round even on misses...and...even on critical misses. I'd have to lay that out to explain it, but it is neat. I might be able to work it in next week. Planning on a comparison between two unarmed combatants, probably a monk vs an martial artist fighter...but maybe an animal barbarian. Not sure yet.
Music: Kevin Macleod

[@jstabler881]

You forgot two of the most powerful persistent sources. Swashbuckler 8: Bleeding Finisher. Deal up to 6d6 persistent bleeding damage. Tyrant with Iron Repercussions: Deal up to 6d6 mental persistent damage. You can get both by going Swashbuckler into Tyrant dedication. Deal 4d6 bleed at 9 and 3d6 mental at 9.

[@LegendaryCMD]

Wow! not sure how i missed that swashy attack. At level 13 it would be 10d6 on a critical hit. THAT..is filthy!!

[@jstabler881]

@@LegendaryCMD one of my favourites. Keep up the good work!

[@davidioanhedges]

Swashy 8 is quite likely to hit, probably has a +1 Striking weapon Does 2d6 + 1 + Str + 3d6 Finisher - on a crit doubled .... and then 6d6 persistent bleed

[@LukeLavablade]

Damn, using Alchemist's fire splash damage to trigger the Flames Oracle aura is genius. Nice video!

[@Sombre_gd]

I'm not gonna lie, this is one of the craziest RPG build videos I've seen. Including the comments. Pathfinder really shines when it comes to crazy builds.

[@Carter933]

I'm thoroughly enjoying your Videos! Fun presentation and great insights!

[@andrewh5212]

"Wizard....I'm not gonna even look." I actually laughed out loud on that.

[@Em3.14re]

It's a pretty niche case, but the Arazni form of the Avatar spell has a one-action ranged attack that does 6d6 persistent bleed damage for an average of 21, and it has a range of 120 feet!

[@Icestud_49]

Dont miss out on animal companions persistent damage! The scorpion, boar, and bird can help you dish out some awesome persistent damage on hit.

[@LegendaryCMD]

Yes!! I cut them out due to time, but those are solid!

[@russischerzar]

Also a potentially interesting point: "Persistent damage runs its course and automatically ends after a certain amount of time as fire burns out, blood clots, and the like. The GM determines when this occurs, but it usually takes 1 minute." (CRB pg. 621)

[@LegendaryCMD]

Yes! Anything that could survive a full minute of persistent damage and still be up would be impressive. With your point, though, would good damage fade out after a minute? Bleed damage, fire damage...even mental damage, I could see how it would run its course. But good damage...I think that should linger until a save is made...especially vs an evil recipient. Hey, really glad you are here!!

[@russischerzar]

@@LegendaryCMD Well, I would explain it like follows: "There's powerful Good energy attached to the Evil creature, dealing damage to it. However at some point the energy that's left isn't powerful enough to deal damage anymore." Like a small battery that goes empty or something :D

[@linus4d1]

Great video. Persistent damage can often be overlooked as some players just look at DPS

[@TheLocalDisasterTourGuide]

At least 70% of my reason for watching this show is so I can store evil build ideas in reserve for the day I shed my Forever GM status & actually get to play! That Oracle/Alchemist build caused a genuine maniacal laugh! Great video!

[@borisdaanimal4014]

Savour the Sting! Clerics of pain are off the chain baby!!!

[@LegendaryCMD]

Savour it!! I love cleric and that would be a great focus point spent. Drop that one out there every combat and see what happens!!

[@domblebuilds]

You've inspired me, Crunch! I'll be back in a couple weeks...

[@lockepersonal]

Now they're adding martial weapon proficiency to rogues in the revised books, so I can't wait to build something that leans heavily into bleeds and poisons.

[@PyroMancer2k]

Persistent damage is one of the things I like about the Alchemist. The Acid Flask on Critical is awesome. In the Plague Stone Adventure my Alchemist Critical Hit opening attack with Acid Flask on the Act 1 Boss. It ended up winning us the fight because he never passed is save checks and everyone else in the party was rolling horribly to hit. We had whole rounds go by with both our melee heavy hitters missing every attack. And the end of the combat both of them were unconscious on the ground and only me and the cleric would still standing which the enemy was suffering from Acid and Fire Persistent damage. Since Persistent of the same type doesn't stack and they have to roll separately for each type the Alchemist ability to make lots of different types is great cause you can stack away all those types, especially with Perpetuals as you just rotate which ones your using for max effect. While most other classes have one type so they get no benefit from hitting a target again that already has it.

[@rafasiqalv]

Monks can get weapon specialization as a feat at level 2 - Brawling Focus - and if they did get Monastic Weaponry it works with the monk weapons too! Also, another point to add: Alchemists can further increase the persistent damage using Expanded Splash (needing Calculated Splash before) and Sticky Bomb, for a total of 3d6+8 persistent acid damage, making it an average of 37 persistent acid damage on a crit at level 12

[@Rob-uc2jh]

Assuming no resistance and that the enemy can bleed, mean damage dealt with Tiwst the Knife at level 17 is around 9.3.

[@russischerzar]

Two points: 1. Enervation deals persistent negative damage in a line (since you said you didn't see any other persistent negative damage) 2. Bombs are martial weapons, so higher level Oracles would have a hard time even getting a miss with them

[@LegendaryCMD]

Great points. That oracle would be better with some friends throwing alchy fire, than trying on their own. And enervation...I like that one, missed it. Glad you are here!

[@russischerzar]

@@LegendaryCMD Thanks! And sorry if my previous comment sounded a bit dry, I do love your videos and you did a great job with this one too :)

[@lightblckknight]

So, what about combined elixirs/poisons? 1. Can it be done? 2. Fire oracle alchemist with combined acid & fire bomb, how would that damage compare?

[@Feralhyena]

Wizards can get crit specializations when using Hand of the Apprentice. A neat idea would be to combine Hand of the Apprentice with a Spellstrike. Doubling damage and doubling Crit specializations, if your Spellstrike attack benefits from an ancestry feat, Arcane Fists, or Student of the Staff. Best part is that your HotA weapon only has to be a Melee weapon you're Trained in order to benefit.

[@LegendaryCMD]

I'm not even sure I can get my head around what happens when you make a spellstrike with hand of the apprentice. You hit with the weapon, and the spell goes off...causing your weapon to fly out of your hand and hit the target...again...and then it returns to your hand. I mean.. mechanics and damage aside, visually that's pretty rad. What do you mean that weapon specialization would go off twice on a crit?

[@Feralhyena]

@@LegendaryCMD I might have gotten a little ahead of myself, but the Strike made as part of the Spellstrike, read as written, determines whether or not the coupled spell is also a critical hit. So, on top of potentially quadrupling your weapon damage, Specialization damage and letting you apply both Strength and Intelligence to your damage roll, you could, if using 2 distinct weapons, which is perfectly allowable, as the weapon you're using only has to be in hand, not necessarily making the attack, have the Critical Specialization for each apply to the same critical hit. Now, there are a few instances where a redundancy wouldn't matter (using 2 swords, for example, or other weapon groups that automatically give conditions), but the best options are the ones that give forced movement, bleed, or picks or axes (doing this with Starlit Span is another level of odd, depending on weapon choice). The focus cost and having to track Weaknesses and Resistances separately are a pretty massive balance factor, imho, tho.

[@LegendaryCMD]

​@@Feralhyena Thanks for pointing this one out. The thing I like the most about this is how unique this is for a spellstrike. The better the weapon is, the better the spell damage. Instead of heightening (+1) or (+2), this would add more dice whenever you added a new striking rune to your weapon, which would be 4, 12 and 19...and when you got weapon specialization at level 7, at level 13 (when you increase to master weapon proficiency), and at level 15 with greater weapon specialization (and add to that arcane cascade damage...if you are in that stance) AND levels when you could add a property rune at 2, 10, and 16 (and really, after level 8 when you could add one of the elemental runes). AND, i'm with you on the double critical specialization effect. At first I thought there was no way you could add that twice, but it IS two distinct weapon hits, so I'll allow it...until some rogue developer crushes our hopes and dreams on how it's played.

[@LegendaryCMD]

@@Feralhyena Hey, what would you call this build? Any ideas?

[@Feralhyena]

@@LegendaryCMD The Bouncing Blade build sounds like an elegant description of what the build does, and you can adjust the name to fit the weapon. Alternatively, Arcane Fisher also is a good name, albeit one that invites head-to-head comparison with the Fighter and/or Gunslinger in terms of critical damage output.

[@SheppiTSRodriguez]

Enervation also deals Negative Persistent damage :3 and a great amount

[@borismilenski4759]

10:05 Yeah, I took Shocking Grasp with the same assumption: "People wear metal armor all the time!" ... And then the people we were fighting we either all undead skellies (with resistance 5 to electricity) or were wearing leather armor. Also, when was the last time you saw a wild beast brandish metal armor? :D

[@LegendaryCMD]

Yeah, while I was editing i realized how ridiculous that statement was! Glad you are here!!

[@rasleyforde2363]

Me and my players are not lucky enought to get rid of persistent damage on 2 or less turn, so this builds could be really scary on my table

[@squidrecluse2336]

So with multiple sources of the same type of persistent damage you just take the higher one, but how do you determine that with certain dice combinations? If you take 3d4, 2d6, and 1d12 persistent bleed damage which is technically higher? Or do you roll all three and take the highest result?

[@LegendaryCMD]

I was wondering about that too. On page 621 under "Multiple Persistent Damage Conditions" it says, if you get the same condition, the higher amount overrides the lower amount. And, also on 621, under the persistent damage condition, it says you roll the dice "anew" each time. (funny word there). With this in mind, if you somehow dealt 3d4, 2d6 and 1d12 persistent bleed damage at the same time...which would be hilarious, it would HAVE to be just one of these...not rolling all three and taking the higher amount (because it says the higher amount overrides the lower amount.) So someone would have to choose, either player or DM, which was higher. (take the 3d4).

[@zegyboo]

Hey Crunch, I'm about to start my first PF2 game and am playing an alchemist, but I wanted to double check the rules on Crits and Persistent damage. I couldn't find it (though my google-fu is weak for PF2-style), but where does it say what damage is/isn't doubled on a crit? (The GM is new too, so finding rules will help the whole group)

[@LegendaryCMD]

Hey, I'm excited for your game. That info is on page 451 in the core rule book, in the playing the game section. It's in the lower left part of that page under "doubling and halving damage." But, since you are asking about persistent damage with regard to critical hits, that isn't specifically spelled out there. It says, in summary, roll all the damage normally, then double it. And it also lists the one exception, that being damage specific to a critical hit. Since persistent damage would fall under "all damage" unless it was specific to a critical hit, which sometimes it is, I would double it. Now, there is one other section that illuminates this a little more. On page 544 under...of all things, "Splash Trait," it spells out the damage for an acid flask both on a normal hit AND on a critical hit, and indeed, the 1d6 persistent damage increases to 2d6 on a critical hit.

[@zegyboo]

@@LegendaryCMD Awwesome thanks Crunch =) That IS a weird place to find that rule. Glad you pointed me to it, I don't think I'd have thought to look there =P

[@Sombre_gd]

@@zegyboo Of course persistent damage does not crit. It is a condition. It's like saying if a damage would cause enfeebled 1 condition and you would argue after crit, it should be enfeebled 2. Page 451 - Doubling and Halving Damage says: a) Roll damage normally b) add all mods c) add bonuses d) subtract penalties. e) Then double it. You are NOT rolling persistent damage during your strike, but at the end of creature's turn. It's outside calculating strike damage.

[@Dramon8888]

You couldn't make the Oracle/Alchemist at 1st level because you need to be level 2 to pick an archetype. Unless you're using double class, that might be interesting.

[@alexsledge]

Co-Bald. :)