Hands-On With Dell's Controversial CAMM Memory

[@RN1441]

As someone who remembers the dark days of the early 1990s with RAM shenanigans in IBM, Compaq, Dell, etc. machines, I was horrified to hear that vendors were again developing proprietary memory standards, but reading that this has been submitted to JEDEC makes me much more optimistic. I'll avoid machines with this until it's formalized as a standard and shown to be actually interoperable, not a standard in principle only.

[@youp1tralala]

It is possible to install a SO-DIMM adapter on this model, though it is limited to 64GB

[@FakeGordonMahUng]

Yeah, dell has a fall back plan in case customers want SO-DIMMs instead.

[@sbrazenor2]

Just because something is a standard doesn't mean you can do anything with it after purchase. I'm sure that Apple's using some kind of standard on their embedded memory in the M-chips, but you can't exactly upgrade it.

[@kippie80]

I remember my 5,000$ 486DX machine having 32 Megs of memory with NeXT running on it.

[@Dragoon91786]

@@kippie80 Remember when we had to solder the RAM to the physical laptop board? 🤣💯 I was super little, but I remember those extra dark days. 🤣

[@korbensc7218]

Question: if the distance between memory socket and CPU is that important, why not just rotate the SODIMM slot by 180 deegrees so they are close to the CPU (like with CAMM)?

[@adventtrooper]

Might be the pin order is set that way, and rotating the SODIMM would require all the tracks to cross over to match a particular order on the CPU socket. I'm not familiar with the specifications, but that could create a track routing issue that's worse than the long track length (given all the tracks need to be the same length on a parallel bus).

[@RN1441]

@@adventtrooper Having routed a DDR3 design between an FPGA and a chip it looks nearly random to me anyway. Especially considering the package propagation delays.

[@FakeGordonMahUng]

I need to read the SO-DIMM spec from the 1990s and consult a laptop designer but looking around, they are all laid out this way. In a gaming laptop where Z height is reduced you get both SO-DIMMS on the board and both face each other with traces coming in further away. Looking around, that looks to be the conventional layout.

[@korbensc7218]

@@adventtrooper well in that case, I think it would be easy just to swap the connections and the SODIMM another 180 deegress, this time vertically, so the order is the same as before... I don't think that's the explanation

[@sbrazenor2]

Or, why not do what Apple did, and put the RAM inside the processor package. 🤣

[@tkpenalty]

It'd be good to switch to these so that soldered memory becomes a thing of the past, and forces dual channel configs universally

[@RN1441]

Soldered memory in lower end products will never go away as it's cheaper than implementing the socket, plus that fancy high frequency spacer, and the extra PCB for the memory module.

[@asrilhanif609]

yea it's suck when you get no display because of soldered RAM, you have to use proper equipment or change the whole mainboard instead

[@bazilxp]

Soldered memory is sickness introduced by Apple

[@erik5309]

@@RN1441 Dell's current Latitude 7430 and last years 7420 have soldered memory which drives me absolutely nuts as it means a memory issue requires a system board replacement. A bit ridiculous for a higher tier laptop IMO.

[@TabalugaDragon]

DDR5 is quad channel, actually. Dual per each so-dimm. So I'd prefer CAMM to be quad channel.

[@ChristianStout]

If this is what it takes to keep laptop memory non-soldered and it's an industry-wide replacement for DIMM then I'm all for it. But if parts and upgrade modules are difficult to find or overpriced, Dell can go pound sand.

[@AndreiNeacsu]

That older laptop brings back good memories of easy to upgrade/service/maintain hardware. It's not really doors, but I like those covers too. Also, everything on the lower side is a nice bonus too. I've had some horrible experiences with laptops wehere you had to remove the motherboard (and everything else) to repaste the CPU.

[@overPowerPenguin]

Well, yea, there are some junk designed laptops, older and newer, where you gotta remove everything, but I like the Asus Gaming ones / TUF, ROG, they are easy to work on, just remove the back cap and you got access to everything, fans, memory, HDD, SSD, really great.

[@AndreiNeacsu]

@@overPowerPenguin I have 2019 ROG Hero 3 (i7 9750H + RTX 2060 (non-maxQ)), and the power connector is garbage. It's two years since it started causing me problems due to the horrible sense pin in the middle of the barrel jack. What annoys me most is that I upgraded the RAM and added a 2TB Samsung 870 EVO SSD (besided the Intel 660p NVMe), and on my new laptop there is no 2.5" HDD/SSD slot, nor can I move the DDR4 memory into it.

[@dangerous1a200]

I have an old Compaq laptop 2005 ish and i just needed to check if the power port was working. I had to remove the keyboard, screen a lot of connectors, hdd , ram and then only could i remove the port. The cpu was even more harder to get access to so i just gave up and put it back together

[@AndreiNeacsu]

@@dangerous1a200 Sorry to hear that! I do remember that situation and have zero nostalgia about it.

[@CarsonG1017]

The iBook G4... 54 screws, both motherboard RF covers, and a good hour of your time. For what? To replace the hard drive. To replace the RAM, it takes 4 screws in that thing.

[@annihilatorg]

I like that pin-to-pin interposer as long as the replacement cost is negligible. SoDimm was great due to the cost to have a simple socket was just a couple dollars. Now you're looking at the interposer, screws, rivets or whatever for the guide, and a stiffening plate as additional costs and manufacturing complexity. You can see why direct soldering ICs has become the norm with fully automated pick-and-place capabilities in the factory.

[@Freshbott2]

I think ultimately most vendors will go down the soldered route. Even though this is more complicated than SODIMMS if the choice I’d been a thin and light soldered component and a thick replaceable one, they will always go soldered. Thin and removable is the only worthwhile alternative at the cost of complexity. For cases where it doesn’t matter i wouldn’t be surprised to see blank CAMM connections with SODIMM slots in them.

[@silver_surfer88]

Having an entire motherboard fail because of a single faulty memory chip is very common unfortunately, similar to SSD's soldered, its just an appalling bad design specially to the enviroment. I guess things will start to change if consumers vote with their wallets. Regulators must step in to ensure consumables parts arent integrated into durable parts.

[@benjytom7371]

I could not care less about the thickness of a laptop. As long as it's not over 2" thick, it's thin enough for just about anything I could want. But the performance increase is intriguing.

[@amos_bebeh]

@Armament Armed Arm more like: I don't care what other people think, I care about performance more than looks.

[@eric_d]

@@amos_bebeh While performance IS very important, I believe more upgrade options is much more important than the slight performance boost this new design MIGHT allow. This does not look like a valid solution. They're probably going to do it anyway, and it's going to make a LOT of people very mad.

[@rationalwatcher7739]

100%. I edit 4k in Adobe Premiere with a 10th gen i7 H, 64gb memory, RTX2070 MSI gaming laptop. It Rocks for editing in performance mode, exports to h.264 are accelerated via Nvenc, AVC/HCEV accelerated via intel iGPU Quicksync, and I get basically gaming desktop performance in a laptop body, just a little fatter than your efficiency laptop models for performance & air-flow. It runs the Adobe apps like it was custom made for editing.

[@arminbreuer7968]

You don‘t HAVE to stack SO-DIMMs; Lenovo has had them side-by-side for a while, and a single SO-DIMM slot is hardly thicker than this, maybe a millimeter or so.

[@rhuephus]

at this time of checking, Dell's CAMM 128GB is about $2,500 and is only for the Precision line, so I do not believe the "old" SODIMM type is going away anytime soon.

[@andycampbell324]

In the 2nd laptop if the SODIMM slots were rotated by 180degrees the connection distance to CPU would be the same as CAMM wouldn't it ?

[@KabelkowyJoe]

I made same point, but it only work with 2 modules, stacked one on top of another, adding to height, wont work well if you had 4 dims and that seems to be case. They put 4 dims next to each other, pair on top pair on bottom of huge module and connected using square sockets so every module, and every connection of that module have same lenght route to CPU, wouldnt be possible with 4 dims next to each other. Plus - it's proprietary you want more, have to ask Dell for it :) If this become standard why not?

[@18earendil]

@@KabelkowyJoe Let hope that this will be proprietary in the same way as Thunderbolt 3 is and that we get an USB4 deal after a few years.

[@TheDoubleBee]

Very interesting that it has pads both on the memory module and the motherboard and the pin interface sandwiched between. Would be extremely useful if the same same could be done with CPU sockets, so you wouldn't need to replace the whole motherboard if one or more pins in the LGA were bent.

[@mrlithium69]

I jumped out of my seat when he accidentally moved that pin-pad-interface-connector-bar-thing. Thats a gamechanger in and of itself.

[@FakeGordonMahUng]

That's a Great question actually...

[@suntzu1409]

Beyond the high capacity and high speed advantages, this is quite revolutionary Only a matter time until this gets adopted for CPU sockets

[@venvut]

This is useless because the problem with the bend pins is so rare that it is almost zero. I have built maybe over 1000 PCs and repaired 5 times more PCs and laptops and the only time that i bend a pin was on a AMD CPU that i dropped because cut myself on the case. Also the memory module is the same height from the main board as the old ones. Yep the double stack is bigger but in a laptop the tallest component was the cooling or the fan itself not the memory.

[@alc5440]

Dell uses the LGA interposer for a lot of their high density cables as well and I love the idea. It turns a motherboard destroying catastrophe into a few dollar part.

[@justinpatterson5291]

Interesting design. Wonder how fast/responsive they'll get.

[@ducnguyenminh6165]

the highest price you pay is the fastest memory modules

[@eric_d]

Not anywhere near fast enough to make it worth losing the extra memory slots. It will make "upgrading" much more expensive because you'll actually be replacing the entire module instead of adding a second, or third, or fourth module, as well as creating more e-waste. Bad design in my opinion.

[@technicallyme]

I would rather do this then have it soldier to the board. Does it need to be torqued specifically like some server cpus ?

[@Vismotrix-m]

couldn't agree more, ive had this old laptop with 2gb ram which is integrated into the motherboard, and it only has 1 slot for the expansion, i mean it could work but when i wanted to add more than 2gb it means that i am sacrificing the dual channel, it is infuriating

[@nnasab]

I am happy to see new technology in memory technology. I am old timer and my first computer had dim ic memory that you had to pry out of socket to replace with the same model. Then 30 pin memory was the big jump in technology. Now this is my 3rd memory technology jump in my life time. 😊

[@xud6405]

It actually took more space than modern SODIMM design. It only useful when you are design a system with large screen , in other word large board space, but want to made it thin.

[@VTOLfreak]

One of these modules can go up to quad-channel. So it can replace up to four SODIMM modules. And I agree, this is focused on thin designs, probably as an alternative to soldering.

[@nickm9102]

@PC_Modder I'm not sure I like this just yet. he made it sound like the chip footprint changes with the resource size so the 32GB is comparable but are they going to make thin laptops with huge areas of open space if it does need more space? Also, I am big on the idea of expansion over replacement making this a new standard will deture people from purchasing the 32GB option with plans to expand to the 128GB if they know that the 32 GB chip will be trash or parts drawered for them. This might be fine for a business environment where the mentality is NMFP, I 'm not the one paying for it. but in the PC environment this will lead to either less upgrades or less purchases the initial cost will be out of reach for high end chips and/or replacing a working component will become an unacceptable cost.

[@Odd_Taxi_epi04]

Aparently the area under the CAMM can be used to lay down low-z components on the motherboard side, as CAMM modules are always one-sided. So even though they are larger they potentially take much less space in the motherboard.

[@TabalugaDragon]

@@VTOLfreak but each DDR5 so-dimm stick is already dual channel, four sticks would make 8 channels.

[@n.shiina8798]

good idea as long as it become an open standard. the advantage over 1~2 SODIMM slot might be negligible but when you're going 4 SODIMM slot, this one have advantage on standard dual-channel configuration (i know DDR5 have 2x32b per each module but i still consider them as 1 main channel). less power traces going around, less contact points

[@jerrybrown6169]

beware anybody that replaces a ubiquitous standard interface that works well with their own stuff. I did not see any improvement in space but it appears that if you want more memory you need a whole new board, you cannot add on. I am sure it is cheap right? Well no, 128Gb will cost you over $2400 vs $ 770 for dimm.

[@Blackrhyme7]

If design engineer would reverse the socket so the connection would be on the cpu side distance would be the same, they could also turn it 90° and have each beside each other so it would be flat as that camm module and space wise probably would not be that much different

[@dorfschmidt4833]

That CAMM thing is BS.

[@fatman2876]

Not as sexy as so-dimm but beats soldered ram. I like it!

[@arudanel5542]

That's actually impressive, I'm actually wondering how that would work on an ITX motherboard, having the camm under the pcb like the second M.2 on many boards, freeing up space on top for other things. Heck, on ATX boards it could solve data issues, being right next to the cpu. Plus, having a flat ram module they could make waterblocks by EK, etc, for even higher overclocking. I hope this catches on, this could really fix a ton of issues with memory slots that have cropped up over the years.

[@tormaid42]

You can fit sodimms under a motherboard already though there are industrial ITX boards that do this.

[@TobyIKanoby]

I don't see the point, especially also now with DDR5 getting hotter than DDR4. In a laptop this kind of makes sense because it has to be a flat slab, on an ITX board RAM doesn't really take up that much space because it is vertical, ITX doesn't have to be flat, it's another kind of space restriction. On some ITX boards M.2 'towers' and VRM cooling easily take up more volume than the RAM.

[@aaronperelmuter8433]

@ Not AN AMD Nor Nvidia nor Intel fan Hmmm, why indeed? Are you also saying we should stick with crt monitors because they were great for about 40-50 years, so why not stick with them? Or single core cpus, they too were just fabulous for at least 25+ years, so why bother having 40, 50, 60+ cores when just one was so effective for so long? Seriously, DID YOU EVEN LISTEN TO ANY OF THIS VIDEO? AND WHAT SORT OF PROBLEMS COULD THERE BE THAT AREN’T KNOWN ABOUT? I MEAN, IT’S SO COMMON THAT A NEW CONNECTOR STANDARD COMES OUT THAT HAS PROBLEMS WHICH NEED TO BE FIXED. WTF ARE YOU ON, NAME ONE SINGLE TIME THAT HAS HAPPENED IN A CONSUMER RETAIL CONNECTOR STANDARD??

[@IvarDaigon]

For something that takes up the space of 2-3 SODIMMS laying flat I don't see how this saves space or thickness. All it does is mean that the user has to replace their entire RAM board with another expensive proprietary board every time they want to upgrade the RAM instead of just adding an additional SODIMM which means more cost for the end user. I bought a dell i7 laptop 8 years ago and I still use it today because I was able to easily upgrade the ram and storage.

[@Odd_Taxi_epi04]

Aparently the area under the CAMM can be used to lay down low-z components on the motherboard side, as CAMM modules are always one-sided. So even though they are larger they potentially take much less space in the motherboard. The problem with upgrading the memory keeping the old one in laptops is that usually it means running single-channel before the upgrade, wasting performance potential.

[@IvarDaigon]

@@Odd_Taxi_epi04 its a moot point when most consumer laptops are sold with low amounts of ram to meet a particular price point and make them more attractive to consumers. If the laptop does not have enough free ram for the given workload it has to use the swap file which is several orders of magnitude worse for performance than any gains you might get from using dual channel. What they should do instead of using CAMMs is have RAM soldered directly to the motherboard (like they do with tablets and phones) using two channels and then have another 2 cannels available as SODIM sockets. This would give the consumer the best of both worlds without forcing them to throw away RAM when they want to upgrade. It would also be cheaper to manufacture so everyone wins.

[@Odd_Taxi_epi04]

​@@IvarDaigon The problem is when laptops are sold with too low amounts of ram and you want to more than double that. W/o soldered ram you have the choice of selling the ram that came with the laptop to add bigger sticks (no difference to the CAMM). With soldered memory you have your max ram limited, and part of it will not run dual-channel. Worst case would be 68GB limit with 60GB not dual channel. And SODIM sockets will perform worse than CAMM due to the traces issue anyway, plus occupy more space in the motherboard. And if the soldered ram goes bad, it will also be harder to disable it.

[@IvarDaigon]

@@Odd_Taxi_epi04 nobody wants to buy low capacity ram chips from laptops that are several years old that's the problem.. all it does is create a whole lot of ewaste. Soldered memory is very reliable as it is used in tablets and phones that are intended to last just as long as laptops do. And and even if it does go bad you can always just disable that channel from the bios. As I said, if you have two SODIM sockets free then you never need to go single channel, ever. so you can blame laptop manufacturers for selling laptops with only one dim installed. But the dual channel vs single channel debate really doesn't make much difference to the end consumer anyways because you only really notice the difference when using high bandwidth tasks like gaming or running synthetic benchmarks. And in gaming the biggest bottleneck on a laptop is usually the GPU not the system memory.

[@DEMENTO01]

2:56 tbh u can get up to 128GB of ram on 2 sticks nowadays on DDR4 which SHOULD BE PLENTY, and ddr5 is literally 256GB PER MODULE, so it looks like theyre making up a problem to sell a solution... And even if thats not enough, 4 slots designs are usually placed on each side of the board and spread out so it just takes 1 slot of depth on each side and I've ever seen some have 4 on the same side spread out taking just 1 slot of depth, if need be they can put the 2 slots stacked on top of each other on just one side and it doesnt really take the same size as two separate ones either, its a few mm less thick. And for workstations it doesnt even matter bc the cooling solution will already require it to be quite thick like honestlky this all sounds so dumb. So I dont think that using regular sodimms takes more space than this and its an open standard, this on the other hand... im seeing many issues, like how all those pads could get some dust in them and not make good contact, the board might flex overtime, expansion due to heat and compression due to cold might make it worse, also, humid climate might do a number on those pads (like they do to the pads on hard drive pads that connect the PCB to the actual hard drive, which i have to do regular cleaning and maintenace so they dont rust bc i live in a 90%+ humidity environment) so in short: it's worse and its propietary af, i don't even wanna know prices bc i know how theyre gonna be. Also for ppl saying this could be used on desktops: for that it needs to be a normal standard (it wont) and tbh for that might as well put laptop sodimms on ITX boards, problem is cpus dont support that nowadays (afaik theyre still different voltage compared to dekstop but i might be wrong) all i could see this being used for is GDDR tho.... i really wish the vram could be upgraded somehow, 80% of these "obsolete" gpus just need a couple gigs more of ram and theyre decent....

[@shanent5793]

We'll probably have socketed CPUs with a similar connector in the future. The network switch companies are finding out that LGA is actually more reliable with very high pin counts (6000+) when compared to soldering

[@gabrielenitti3243]

i believe LGA is more forgiving with thermal expansion (let's not forget Nvidia bumpgate)

[@nickm9102]

I believe something similar is already in use. Not a removable plate but basically a socket that has it built in.

[@rkan2]

I mean... It will still have soldered/welded connections from the substrate to the chip..

[@nickm9102]

@@rkan2 yes, it kinda sounds like a straw man argument to me. There will be a fixed point somewhere so the Idea of board mounting vs. A socket of some kind for quick repair/upgrade seems more like an excuse to force new item purchase over upgrade/repair for longevity.

[@shanent5793]

@@rkan2 the thermal strain occurs over a much shorter distance in the case of the die/substrate interface, and PCB assembly isn't as controlled as chip packaging

[@mrlithium69]

I am very attuned to hostile hardware, and this does not bother me one bit. Consider the fact the alternative was Soldered on (terrible upgrade/repair) or SODIMM (weaker performance). I would be perfectly happy if this could be adapted into a standard, it would be similar to MXM for laptop GPUs (very weird at first but now very normal and nice)

[@theRayzz]

(15:03) ask Apple about their soldered memory. At least with this CAMM you have the possibility to upgrtade overtime. If you messed up with your initial Apple purchase (overpriced upgrades) you msut have to change the machine completely. We are yet still to see if their unified memory will survive in time. Your unified memory or SSD broke, trash your 3k$ computer and buy a new one. At least, Dell show some respect for the customers. my 2 cents

[@kkgt6591]

Even here there is considerable distance between cpu and the memory chips at the far end of the CAMM module.

[@dbsirius]

The worse thing is the amount of exposed "pins", which I could see causing an issue if debris got under it during upgrade/repairs.

[@rajdmohan]

SO-DIMM module's gold finger interface is probably acting as a higher impedance(signal integrity dependency ) stub which would be impeding the high speed / ultra low rise time signals of the DDR5 - so forth, the compression pins on the new module have a smaller cross resulting in lower impedance and also the DDDR5 signal trace routing would probably have better flexibility compared to SO- DIMM interface.

[@suntzu1409]

🤓🤓🤓🤓 /Sarcasmintended

[@jasonk5979]

I'll wait and see if it actually becomes a standard. Or just another abandoned proprietary impossible to find part. I do think it's better than soldered on memory.

[@iblackfeathers]

the trackpad is not centered. what were they thinking? might as well stick the trackpad flush to the left edge of the case. /s

[@mar4kl]

I'm skeptical, at least for the time being. My experience with late model Dell laptops suggests that Dell has been designing motherboards that are less tolerant of subtle differences in SODIMMs than those of other computer makers in what appears to be an attempt to get customers to pay premium prices for more memory at computer purchase time in order to avoid difficulty in finding aftermarket SODIMMs that work with their new Dells. In the mid 2000s, Dell had a reputation for using a lot of proprietary parts, and CAMM strikes me as the next step towards returning to proprietary memory. Saving space doesn't strike me as a priority on a Dell Precision laptop, which is positioned as a desktop replacement. I will be watching to see what JEDEC does with Dell's application and whether or not other manufacturers jump on it.

[@giomjava]

As a singnal integrity engineer, DDR4 routing and design qualification is the bane of my existence.

[@nunyobiznez875]

They need to make up their mind, whether they want to receive royalties or make it a standard, but not both. You can't say this should be a standard, and everyone should do it this way, so that everyone has to pay us royalties. That's a bit like wanting to eat your cake and have it too, and would make a cat fight understandable.

[@straightface311]

"Is it going to make me register? Please don't make me register!" 😆... I thought it was just me

[@sergioacuna1772]

In the fabrication, is more single for assembly, why the dimm, and so-dimm slots, have work soldering, and assembly, and how design, a best organization of the connections with the cpu, and ¿are possible a camm2 in a gpu in the back face?

[@LarsPW]

This type of memory module makes a future extension possible, but you have to exchange the entire module instead of just adding an additional RAM-module. The main challenge with removable electrical connectors at this part of a motherboard is to keep parasite capacities as low as possible because of the very high frequencies.

[@Underestimated37]

This is what I came here to say, this raises the total cost of ownership because to upgrade you can’t add memory, you have to completely switch out the existing memory. It’s anti-consumer and a significant drawback.

[@jeyendeoso]

what makes me most suspicious is the price. DDR5 is already not cheap, add on top of that a proprietary form factor, Dell's royalties, it's gonna be an expensive thing.

[@FakeGordonMahUng]

We covered this in a story and they said they opening it up to third parties so you can hopefully one day buy it from a module maker. It will take wide spread adoption for it to reach parity of course.

[@gregorstrohman3619]

13:29 are those two pins next to the screw-hole already bent?

[@eric_d]

I was actually looking at getting one of those Dell laptops to replace one of mine that's maxed out at 16GB RAM. Looking for one with at least 32GB, but with the possibility of easily upgrading to 64 or more if 32 turns out to not be enough. Now that I know about this new type of memory in that model laptop I'm definitely going to avoid it. It seems like taking several steps backwards. In the past we've been limited to either 2 or 4 memory slots in most laptops to now being limited to a single slot. I'm sorry, but a POSSIBLE small boost in speed is not worth the elimination of upgrade options.

[@rhuephus]

your laptop must be pretty old if your max is 16GB

[@eric_d]

@@rhuephus I have several laptops that are maxed out at 16GB. One's a Lenovo from 2015, one's a Toshiba from around the same time, one's a Razor from 2019, and at least a few others that aren't actually maxed out, but only support up to 16GB. You could say that both of my Surfacebook's are maxed out at 8GB, because those can't be upgraded. I have several more laptops with much lower capacity, but I rarely use those.

[@FrDismasSayreOP]

That looks like a very promising design! And thank you for making me feel old when talking about how many kids weren't born yet when SODIMMS came out. :)

[@agenttexx]

My work computers, Precison 3570s both have 64GB of RAM as do both of my home computers. 128GB is not far off. Our Engineering workstations routinely have 128GB of RAM.

[@retrocdtv]

They add cost to upgrade RAM Modules. As reusability is limited.

[@jstagzsr]

once you showed the pin layer come off i became sold on it. I'm all about it. idiot proof, mistake proof. if you break a pin, you replace the pin array.. thats amazing. So there are pads on the motherboard and pads on the CAMM module and a pin layer that goes between the two that is replaceable.. omg i love that.... I NEED ONE!!!!!!!!!!

[@rhuephus]

ha ha .. there's no such thing as "idiot proof" ...

[@doculab3d]

This is cool! I'd like to see more about new interfaces/standards like this. I saw your article on SD Express, a hands on video would be helpful to explain more about the pcie nvme interface and compatibility.

[@rps215]

Definitely interesting stuff and a step toward the much needed upgrade from SODIMM. I only wish that this is going to be a beginning for a new standard in laptop design instead of another proprietary parts nightmare of the 90s.

[@indask8]

Ebay filled with dead laptops with bent CAMM lga pins in 3...2...1... EDIT : 12:47 Actually, that's well designed, as long as manufacturers don't cheap out and solder that part on the motherboard.

[@timeTegus]

u can just turn around how the old ram is mounted and that the distance is the same. please think next time

[@charleshines2142]

One thing I like is that they designed it with being able to replace the socket in mind. That is good they did that since it won't be long before some klutz does an upgrade and drops something on those horribly delicate pins. If they are anything at all like the ones in CPU sockets they are horribly delicate. I recommend that you roll up your sleeves or wear a short sleeve shirt and do everything else you must to keep anything from dangling over those pins!

[@Takeitlightly6]

Arent laptops already coming with soldered on memory so that its bricked if something breaks from many years already?

[@asrilhanif609]

why don't they make a clip like sodimm so that we can change the memory effiortless? space thingy?

[@paulsim7589]

I love that Gordon unplugged the battery before pulling the ram out and the machine. Or touched the PCB under the BGA cover, then says don't do this :) - This was good and interesting. I don't mind this new thing. But I agree with other commenters that it is a Standard.

[@coburn_karma]

Maximum PC Gordan Ma Ung.....nice to see you again.

[@thegameplaychannel3471]

In SODIMM i have the option to upgrade ram without throwing away existing RAM and just add just pop in another stick of RAM but in this case we have to replace the RAM altogether.

[@markberger5739]

YOU may not need 128gb ram - others may need thatt & much more!

[@Thewickedjon]

for some reason, the older laptop gordon busted open to " explain" the difference between sodimm & camm, is more interesting to look at than the new one?? crazy, that looks like a high end device

[@captainkeyboard1007]

I have a liking to Dell. My keyboard, that is my computer as my powerful typewriter, is a Dell Inspiron. I had it since 2017, after I replaced a Cybernet, which was an all-in-one PC. From your show, I have a bird's eye view of the inside of a laptop computer. Your show was nice to watch. I enjoyed it a lot. Keep up the fine work. PC World is my kind of magazine!

[@sbrazenor2]

Even with the bloat that comes with the current software on the market, I can't think of any reason you would need 128GB of RAM in a laptop. There are likely a few niche applications that might benefit from it, but besides those niche circumstances, the average user isn't going anywhere near that in their usage. I have a system in my house with 32GB of RAM and I haven't gotten close to that with anything I've done. I mainly added that much RAM because I could afford to, not because it was necessary. All of that being said, I run Linux on it mostly and that's a lot lighter on the system resources. Storage, on the other hand, is a different story. Having a few extra terabytes is nice.

[@debbiebernhardt5406]

The games like modded minecraft, introduce new stuff increasing the amount of ram needed to play.

[@sbrazenor2]

@@debbiebernhardt5406 I doubt that the clients that buy workstation laptops are concerned with Minecraft running with mods. 🤣 Video editing for commercial work, or CAD applications with realistic rendering perhaps, but not games. I especially doubt a DoD user would be playing games with mods, considering that there are multiple vectors for malware in that. Usually those people aren't even authorized to install anything on their computers.

[@debbiebernhardt5406]

@@sbrazenor2 have you played tap limitless 5? It runs more than 500 to 750+ mods, all the mods have to be quickly loaded and processed. The amount loading into titlescreen is more than 30gb of memory used.

[@egbront1506]

I suppose RAM disks for VMs or the like but yeah, once you get to huge RAM requirements, you're usually on a Workstation.

[@remixedcat]

I make music and yeah! I max out my 32GB RAM Dell Precision T3600 quite often with just one project!! I needs moar ram but Im broke rn...

[@jfftck]

This looks like a great new standard, I hope it is adopted. Anything to avoid the all-in-one design that Apple is doing these days. I am not against having some of the memory baked into the SoC, but not having upgrade options is keeping me away from Apple.

[@Marcalitus]

I've seen these when they were demoing DDR5 and honestly I love it. I'll put this to be purchased because it's such more efficient than the amount of sodimms we have.

[@jerry1333]

I disagree that this is good thing. If other manufacturers won't follow same module spec it will be disaster, they can do interconnect model specific (like physical sizes) and You end up having to buy parts from them instead of any part You want (and they can charge You for lot more) and of course Camm modules will cost much more because it new thing and so on.

[@yuramsite]

How about the bank? Does it support multi-bank out-of-the-box?

[@IdeasAreBulletproof]

The Camm Standard is looking pretty good. It seems like an apple thing where the OEM was going with something proprietary instead of the standard Sodimm but maybe Camm replaces the Need for slaughtering Memory in Thinner laptops where there is one sodimm one saughtered or No sodimm all saughtered, It probably won't change in Chromebooks and lower end Windows machines with saughtered memory but still.

[@rajarshi07]

u probably mean soldering?

[@EbonySaints]

@@rajarshi07 Well, soldering is slaughtering in my mind, so it works either way.

[@VicharB]

So, after 12 months it is not "controversial" after all, as it is now being shipped as standard (JDEC) now, starting with notebooks like ThinkPad P1 in the form of LPCAMM2. Dell did something good, otherwise I personally never liked Dell notebooks. And the other beauty is that every stick/plank of LPCAMM2 is dual-channel.

[@welchianachi7707]

Same type connectors are used for years in DLP projectors.

[@homelessEh]

wait for Apples version to be Solid Soldered on with BGA...complete with heat solder fractures causing rampant failure! WAIT FOR IT! ITSSSSS COMIN!~

[@NullStaticVoid]

Well that sucks for people that count on buying a laptop with a stock amount of ram and adding ram on top of that. With 4 SODIMM laptops that was extremely common. When I worked in broadcast I saved our department thousands by doing a 2 SODIMM upgrade to a few hundred laptops. Only took me 5 minutes per laptop, and we rolled out those laptops over several months so it was an easy task to do while on the daily conference call. It's better than the Apple approach of soldering ram to the board, but only barely. I've seen a few laptops, I think they were HP? That had 16 gigs soldered on board, and then a second set of SODIMM sockets that could be populated in the future.

[@mysterychemical]

11:40 Why not have those pins on cpu side and not away from cpu?

[@Mr.Morden]

Am I crazy to expect CAMM sockets on CPU packages at some point? It would be a great way to use CPU pins for PCIe instead, while simultaneously optimizing DRAM traces too. Am I crazy?

[@aaroncheah2088]

My Precision M6700 has 4 SODIMM slots. 2 below the keyboard and 2 at the bottom. The laptop is thick and heavy with 32GB DDR3.

[@remixedcat]

how is yours doing?? I see those cheap on ebay and am tempted to get one!

[@dinozaurpickupline4221]

i would greatly benefit from a 8gig or 16gig laptop currently I'm stuck with sodimm 4gig,need to upgrade

[@Koeras16]

Is that why timings are so loose on sodimms ? (distance between the pins of the sodimms and the cpu)

[@professorXPM]

Back when Rambus first came out.. wait it actually died at the same time, cause it was owned by one company and only that company could create and sell the ram at an arm and a leg

[@lesslighter]

don't forget this has the same issues as nVidia's MXM format sounds good on paper but only time will tell if its a success story or a proprietary flop

[@FakeGordonMahUng]

I dunno, MXM was accepted by most and we saw many ATI designs on it too. I think it mostly went away because they wanted to move away from the form factor since Z height matters.

[@hermangutierrez5357]

But do u get dual channel with this?

[@michaelh9936]

Wonder if the modules could be designed to pass through the signal to another module stacked on top for two dimm per channel support (with each dimm already being dual channel).

[@dperreno]

I was thinking that was the design intent. You can put in a second module by removing the bridge plate. Maybe they are protecting for a future upgrade?

[@notawildthingy]

I still hold a grudge against Dell from selling me my first workstation ($3500+) with an obscure *BTX* motherboard, making it virtually impossible to upgrade later on.

[@barrybritcher]

Lol. Btx. Wow

[@DJdoppIer]

Yeah, hard pass on all that. Odds are that they will just solder that "pin board" to the motherboard, making it non-removeable, and if you bend / break any of those ram pins on the motherboard then you're fucked. Especially if there's only 1 CAMM socket. Sony tried something similar to this in some of their laptops back in the early 2000's and it wasn't well-received then either. This looks like an accident waiting to happen. I'm sure companies would love this as they'll get to sell lots more replacement parts, but this would not benefit the customer much. A negligible reduction in laptop thickness just isn't worth it to me. As for the decreased memory latency from positioning the contacts closer to the CPU, it's a good idea, but there are more practical ways to accomplish this than changing the ram's socket interface all together.

[@robertmaybeth3434]

My first thought is "proprietary" as the main, if not only true motive for this.

[@g.4279]

If they want to solder it, they will just solder. Soldering is thinner, cheaper, and even shorter. The whole point of this is to allow for upgrading.

[@shaneintegra]

I really needa get a new budget laptop. Tried sticking with socketed CPU's but they're completely not even comparable anymore. I wish laptops would have kept going that route but the slim design was worth the trade

[@rhuephus]

wow .. your laptops must be REALLY old if it has a socket CPU

[@belle_noire]

Okay but how slow was that startup?

[@hbarudi]

Looks good this new RAM technology, but the old technology they could just rotate it 180 degrees for it to be closer to the cpu?

[@protogenxl]

Didn't dell try pushing a ram standard in the 2000's name was like XDR-ram

[@VTOLfreak]

XDR was the successor for RDRAM which was marketed by Intel and Rambus. XDR did find it's way into the PS3 but that's where it ended. Expensive licensing and greed killed it.

[@HippieP629]

Came for the video, stayed for the Oakland, CA / Lake Merritt (The TOWN!!) tshirt =)

[@J-Pow]

9:52 That looks like my 2012 Origin PC laptop, which was built on a bulky Clevo body. Yeah, it's old and slow now.

[@grproteus]

Imagine if you could rotate the sodimm mountpoints so that the mountpoint is next to the cpu and you place your dimms rotated 180 degrees. Imagine if that were possible, right?

[@FakeGordonMahUng]

I'm going to guess that was looked at since, well, it's a lot cheaper and easier to continue on with the status quo. I also imaging with a 4 module design, that it gets very difficult. And remember, the way the traces run through a SO-DIMM, it's likely still at a disadvantage versus CAMM.

[@CoffeeMug2828]

i dont really get the thing about work laptops. they put those amazing chipset into it like the latest process and GPU only to underclock them making them basically on par with a desktop version of the previous gen.

[@josedelfuego]

What type of old laptop is that? I would to buy that one.

[@edwinmulenga4470]

Whats the model

[@tr8925]

Great vid, do you loose dual channel.

[@FakeGordonMahUng]

No.

[@mikestanley9176]

But how much does a 128 GB CAMM module cost as compared to the equivalent SODIMM ?

[@trustedsource1273]

My Precision 7760 wih regular SODIMM failed and Dell couldn't fix it so they replaced it with a Precision 7780 (one size and one gen newer that the machine in the video) I had added 64GB to the 64GB that came with the 7760, so the replacement came with 64GB. I opened it up and discovered I could no longer add another 64GB -- the 7780 has an adapter to use SODIMM and only two slots. So I checked out CAMM -- 128GB CAMM module from DELL is a whopping $2500! What??? The I found this memeory - DDR5 48GB sticks x 2 = 96GB. Mushkin Redline 96GB (2x48GB) DDR5 Laptop 5200 for $290 It works and now the 7780 has 96GB of DDR5 memory. Also note the Dell warranty provided me with an Intel 13gen machine to replace the 11th gen 7760. Happy about that.

[@plumleytube]

Sodimm Have changed over the years. As the DDR changed the location slot was moved.

[@openbabel]

Not interested in non standard components as it increases electrical landfill....but we might be interested in removing the sodium dmm and using an upgradeable M.2 second slot instead of RAM ? Clearly GPU in laptops are on their way out.....

[@Odd_Taxi_epi04]

M2 slot doesn't have anywhere the bandwidth or even the latency required for reasonable performing DRAM.

[@jasonhowe1697]

my question is what is the reality of 1 TB module within this specification.. My other question whether or not this form factor can end up a locked in non upgradeable ssd..

[@Dragoon91786]

Honestly, if they want to increase throughput, they could always just spread out the contacts wider and make even more connectors (say add 2+ more squares). 🤷🏽

[@bogdantotorean3656]

Can I install SODIMM Memory on a preconfigured Dell with Camm memory / module ?

[@FakeGordonMahUng]

There are/were certain SKUs that would you order with CAMM or SO-DIMMs as Dell knows some people want to still use SO-DIMMs. As far as the JEDEC final CAMM spec and whether that is supported or not is not known. In fact, I'm not sure sure if Dell is still offering the SO-DIMM drop in for CAMM at this point.

[@maxrsw4496]

I don't buy into the "a lot thinner" argument. Uh, cooling fans ARE and SHOULD BE the thickest parts. SODIMM never challenges that thickness and do we want lesser cooling? In the lower left corner, there seems to be 2 M.2 slots with some kind of dual-pads on them. What are those? One is a NVMe SSD, I take it. But the other?

[@FakeGordonMahUng]

I probably should have been a little clearer but the "thinner" argument is largely from the 4-slot SO-DIMM configurations which vendors have to use to hit the high-density requirements of some customers.

[@MrSchattka]

Soldering memory directly onto the motherboard? This brings me back to the 1990's and 16-bit 286/287 hardware.

[@jon9103]

Is this the same Gordan from Maximum PC?

[@seancondon5572]

Hm. Each of those LGA squares appear to have enough for the equivalent of one SO-DIMM's worth of contacts. So it stands to reason that one of these modules could be the functional equivalent of up to FOUR SO-DIMMs. I think this strikes a proper balance between space-saving and upgradability if you regard soldered-to-board RAM as best space-saving and SO-DIMMs as best for upgradability. One module, though, is bound to be more expensive.