Why Racers Can't Let Go Of These "Outdated" Wheels

[@christianborris6754]

So funny to hear the mechanic talk about Finn's bike being unrideable.

[@paulwintermute1495]

100% none of us mortals could ride those bike. They only start to work at speeds we aren't even close to.

[@streddaz]

It’s like an average car driver trying an F1 car. You need to drive to the limit to make them work. Same would go with these DH bikes.

[@trailfork7815]

I've ridden the bikes of local pro riders and boi the bike is like a brick if ridden normally.. the suspension is so stiff because of how hard they push the bikes a normal tune would bottom out the suspension so much during a race

[@skippylegrandgourou2069]

It make sense, i rode many pro riders bike and they are stiff AF ( my gambler also came from a pro rider). They push hard on corner and are super fit. Also Kevin Joly fixed / tuned my bikes many times, great guy with good tuning tips and he was not charging much.

[@postridesends796]

Never ridden a pro DH bike, but enduro bikes are so nice and supple. I own a pros world cup bike and sheesh it's smooth

[@jacobd8826]

The conversation with Finn's mechanic was really interesting. I was curious how they collect data on shaft speeds on the suspension and such. I like the technical discussions overall, keep this sort of stuff coming.

[@Happy_Biker]

BYB Tech

[@leezy7201]

Thank you, Henry!!! That is Pinkbike. Faith restored.

[@lynxg4641]

Excellent job Henry, some great interviews and also thanks to the mechanics for giving such in depth replies, was very interesting. Also really cool to get an update on the FW stuff, really interested to hear what they say after this weekend about the new steel front tri.

[@RC-fp1tl]

LOVE YOU NEKO!! You make this engineer happy with all the cool detailed info about tubes and manufacturing methods. Thanks!

[@gaspertolar7950]

ok so when do we get kashima coated spokes??

[@Cajo22]

😂

[@trailfork7815]

Don't give them ideas...that would probably be $10 for a spoke tho

[@BenSch100]

LoL - the current gold kashima forks are not bling bling enough!! 🤣🤣

[@RyanBuildsWheels]

HA! Love it!

[@ImMediPac]

Yes please😂

[@aberdeendeltaforce]

Frameworks are on to something with steel, in my personal opinion steel is the best material for DH if engineered correctly. I think marketing departments are the ones pushing fancy materials. You have to ride one of these steel bikes to see what I mean. They feel amazing. Well done frameworks for the R&D into the use of this material in DH. ❤

[@dmitryhetman1509]

It is, on other hand if use carbon and doing analisys helps to understand how to make carbon frames better

[@dmitryhetman1509]

Steel is great material, considering how cheap it can be

[@Anthonyholdway]

Went from 35mm rims down to 28 spank rims love them grip is mint stability is mint thought I'd have tyre roll but thicker casing it's perfect tyre has a good profile too hooks into berms nicely

[@simonadams4807]

Great video and interviews. Some really insightful answers from the mechanics.

[@hudsonlucier7646]

Would love to have more chats with mechanics on suspension setup if they are willing to chat.

[@natej7929]

Great content Henry and PinkBike! Love the in-depth conversation and digging in to get more insights into the process. Bravo!

[@flow.lights4684]

Amazing video, one of the very best I have seen for tech insights. Would be great to have more of these at each round with different or even the same mechanics. Great questions by Henry too.

[@robertg4249]

Great video, more of this pinkbike, Henry good job

[@leomarado]

Great questions by the interviewer, I really enjoyed watching the video!

[@branna8829]

Hey Henry, there a few details thats worth noting when talking about fork dampers and the way they manage oil volume. All dampers injest oil if its readily available in the lowers as the shaft seals used tend to only have sealing capactiy up 1m/s, which is way below normal shaft speeds for compression stroke, this is not linked to using full travel at all. Marzocchi was the first in the MTB world to accept this reality and use it, but eliminating the lip keeping oil out of the damper but maintaining the lip to keep oil in, therefore allowing basically free rotation of oil from lowers into the damper then expelled out the top again. as a fork damper is working at a direct 1:1 ratio with the wheel motion it does not need to create as much damping force as a shock, which is having to create force divided by the leverage ratio, i.e. for a 2.4 ratio (at an instenanteous point of travel) a shock will have to create 2.4 times as much force as a fork damper for the same result at the axle. This is done by creating a pressure difference across the damping piston(s). However oil has a maximum pressure difference before cavitation occurs, so the oil has to be pressureised to keep both sides of the pressure difference close enough to maintain consistency, thus this system is completely redundant in a fork damper (with exception of a damper working on a too small a volume of oil). Also worth noting that removing high speed adjustment from external means and leaving it as shims has always been the preferred way for maximum performace, however pesky customers get in the way of reaching peak peformance regually (C1 rockshox air springs are a classic example).

[@tommyking207]

I can attest that those ex471 rims are outrageously strong! 👌

[@RyanBuildsWheels]

Some great insights from Aaron there, really appreciate his openness in sharing what he can. I'm going to start selling more high polish spokes from here on in ;-).

[@nomadcarpenter8549]

This is interesting. More of this type of thing

[@kylanjosiah]

Love this breakdown/interview style video!! Great spread of info and personality :)

[@nickthaskater]

Running 26" 36-spoke Halo SAS wheels with DH tubes wrapped by DH Minions. They are an indestructible combination.

[@stevel2303]

This excellent from Henry 👍 Keep it up Pinkbike 😊

[@johndef5075]

Im running Sun Duroc 30s with 26mm internal width. Fairly light for alloyrim. 2.35 tires. Feels good to me.

[@steve101968]

If you ever fancy a gravel bike, id recommend steel. A lack of suspension and tyre size means your going to feel the stones the potholes ect, steel just takes the edge of it

[@isaactrockman4417]

Especially a steel bike with a curved fork. Acts as a little spring

[@yamahschector]

These hoops run amazing for the last 9 years laced to I9 torch hubs on my 14 trek slash. The bike gets climbing trail days along with chair lift bike park days. If the wheels were boost and 29” they would go straight to my new hardtail.

[@lemonpaper]

I feel validated. My 2011 stumpy has really narrow rims. When i added a 23 Orbea Oiz to the fleet i was kind of annoyed at how many more pinchflats i get. It’s obvious looking at the wheels and the snakebites why that is.

[@phonebem]

I vaguely recall from way back in the day that narrower rims were more resistant to pinch flats than wider rims because you had a greater volume of air between the rim and the obstacle. I haven't been able to find anything to confirm or disprove this though and we're depending on memory from about 30 years ago...

[@lemonpaper]

@@phonebem in my experience they really are more resistant to pinch flats because a narrow rim most often bites at the thick tread area of tire instead of the thin sidewall area.

[@sholehan]

Great tech stuff, Henry is good at this. Looks like he's had a little dirt nap recently too 😉

[@keeperofthedeep0049]

Imagine Being so tuned into your bike you can feel spoke color,,

[@ainmeile]

HQ bike nerding is my jam.

[@skobli617]

Top insights! Great questions

[@rubenvor]

Those were some very interesting questions and answers. Ty Henry 👌

[@notbitter8670]

Super interesting, good work Henry and team!

[@NotADuncon]

It's funny looking back I remember the times where DT had the absolutelly worst DH rim ever produced called DT 6.1. Those rims dented from looking at them and they held the tire so bad one could lose a tire on a TUBED rim/tire that's fully inflated (my tire fell off on a straight lip on a 3 day, non dented wheel)

[@markclancy5714]

nice work NIco is doing with Frameworks bikes

[@clintosorus2647]

Everyone at the trails will be running silver spokes now.

[@martindepunkt3770]

That was really good 👍 Not just the average marketing bullshit. Its the details. Well asked , good questions… please more of that nerd stuff. 🤓🙏

[@gravityprospect]

Another Reason for the people sticking with the ex471 is probably the fr541s not living up to the hype. A lot of my buddies and also me had to change them out after 1 or 2 months. Most of them due to massive bends in the rim well. Word on the Street is that the prototypes / test rims really were that sturdy but the material destroyed the machines and DT swiss had to change something. So it looks like they keept the sturdy rim flanges but had to reduce the support of the rim well. So now the flanges are beasts but the energy of the impacts gets transfered into the rim well and easily denting it so it to a point where it won't hold any air. I know around 10 people who bought that rim and discribed problems like that and now everyone just goes back to the old 511, 560 or 471. I hope that this will get better soon but I guess there won't be a update until someone with a bigger audience experiences tries them.

[@Ganiscol]

Actually, the 541 is virtually the same as the 511. There are only minor difference in material thickness you need a caliper gauge to measure. The 471 is the same as the other two in that respect, its just narrower. And that means its better protected by the tire, in particular the middle tread pattern typically covers the entire rim, whereas 30mm wide rims usually end up hitting a rock with the flange between the middle and shoulder knobs, where there is the least rubber to soften a hard impact. Also, its harder for a rock to hit he rim well directly because its narrower, it will usually hit both rim flanges (again, better covered by the knobs) at the same time, which is structurally stronger than the well. The downside of a narrower rim is, however, it gets bent out of shape easier in the lateral direction than a wider one. Of course the 541 rim was overhyped, I knew that the moment I got my hands on the first one. Its a clear downgrade from the 560 which was a downgrade from the 570 - its almost like DT Swiss is mocking us with going lower in model number as the rims become weaker. The two good things about the 541 are: They went back to the pre 2018 manufacturing process that is more refined with a nicer rim joint and smoother well and also anodize them again as opposed to painting them. And the decals look better. 😅 Oh and I'm a commercial wheelbuilder, I've built hundreds of wheels with each of these rims and seen all kinds of damage you can imagine to all of them.

[@avlehtine]

Goddammit, just have new wheels on the way with the FR541s.

[@mrvwbug4423]

@@Ganiscol Good to know with the 541. I had a set of FR560s on my previous bike and actually really liked them, they took some serious rim pings without any denting at all. I suspected the 541 was going to lose some strength with the 30g weight loss.

[@madeiradriftin4429]

@@Ganiscol Thanks for the input..really nice

[@CreatureSkateboardC2]

Jeez talk about wheel expert

[@thomaswayout9081]

running ex471 since a LONG time, no plans to change .... at all. for me simply the best rim you can buy.

[@KlintonSilvey]

I trust the narrower 471 over the very disappointing fr541

[@julianeldridge1268]

Good gravel rash Henry! What did you do? Or not do?

[@pulDag]

Great insights. Thanks you.

[@grantschoen1726]

3:22 that is insane if a rider can feel spokes rubbing together while the wheel is flexing... next we're going to be told we need to lube our spokes 🤦‍♂

[@spills_n_thrills]

Wheel builders will say spoke tension doesn't affect ride feel and to build a strong wheel you need to take the tight side up to the rim maker's recommended max. Race wheels are only built for each weekend so I guess they don't build for long term reliability

[@RyanBuildsWheels]

This. But at pro level stuff like this building with lower tensions to help a wheel track more or get the feel a riders wants is absolutely something that's possible and desired. Those of us who are mere mortals and won't be getting our wheels rebuilt or tuned after every run will have to stick with a custom blend of spokes to suit our rider weight and style, and a high, evenly balanced tension to keep the wheels durable to spoke fatigue.

[@lolandypanda]

It is funny how mr. Henry advertising suntour NEW technology, which is being used in rockshox charger dumpers for ages now... Probably he's excited about that, pretty much as everybody else excited about everything else in promotional videos...

[@ML_314]

Hey there, thanks for the insider info you provided to us :) By the way a question for a downhill/enduro newbee: What rear tyre in 27.5x2.4 can you recommend? From a freind I can get an Assegai for the front. I thought about DHR II MaxxGrip DD for the rear then. Good choice? It's for an E-Bike which I'd like to use for single trails as well as one or the other bike park. Thanks :)

[@g.w.customcreations3534]

Try a continental DerBaron, reasonably stiff carcass, so rolls VERY fast for such a grippy tyre, great for tubeless, plenty bite on almost all surfaces, but never feels draggy. 🤙🏻

[@hitterrudolf-patrick1681]

DHR II DD will be great. Although, I wouldn't recommend a maxxgrip in the rear, only if you plan on racing or you are ready to replace the tire often. Maxxgrip in the front is a must, but in the rear it will just wear down too quickly. Go for maxterra in the rear if you have the choice.

[@ML_314]

Thanks to both of you for the advice :) I will try Continental Kryptotal and Argotal on my normal Enduro Bike this season. The I can find out myself what the difference between the brands and compounds feels like :)

[@phonebem]

Tire choice is pretty subjective but you're not on a bad path with a DHR II rear, I personally prefer a Dissector though. Since you're on an ebike, there's no reason to not go full-grip and go with an Assegai too if you want uncompromised grip...

[@natureboymtb]

Great content! 💪🏼😃

[@MS-fo8vr]

Great video, more of this!

[@dydanz]

nothing outdated as long as it work. single-speed, hardtail, chromoly, etc. has been there for decades...

[@jonnoMoto]

those bleed ports are nothing new, at least in motorbikes. my 20yr old 48mm showa cartridges have those for the same reason

[@emrhomeworks9979]

So by "Racers" he means Troy...the rest is pretty legit though.

[@madjh8]

No way, I use duke alloy wheels with 25 internal width. It is the best choice for rear. narrower and fast, fron wider and grip.

[@Jpwillia1]

I had one of those rims, dented and wouldn’t hold air on first ride 😢

[@cycliststrainingpartner8877]

I just build up a beautiful set of FR541s and dented the rear rim to flat on first ride 😅

[@BenSch100]

Do you guys run inserts? Sounds really bad if they dent and loose air so easily.

[@symmetricon1982]

​@@BenSch100I've gone thru 2 541s on the rear... Pure shit wheels

[@Tanner731]

frameworks guy saying you can do more with aluminum in the cnc is confusing to me as someone who runs cncs, yeah steel is harder to cut and a little more expensive but anything you can make out of aluminum in a mill or lathe you can make out of steel

[@maffin2917]

He says you can do more......without paying a wieght penalty.

[@Photosbydrew]

Getting some amazing info out of the boys.

[@kobemaui9983]

Liking this content keep it up👍

[@Matt-vp6eq]

Ask your girlfriend out the blue: love, what spoke tension do you run?

[@Cajo22]

😂😂

[@rpiian]

Here we go with the silver spoke thing, now everyone will be running silver! 😂

[@bryancook7541]

Still rolling on my Mavic 321D 26'ers on my restoMod'ed 01Straight8

[@LKnight32]

Has Rim technology really moved on if the top end of the sport still runs 10 year old rims? 😂

[@KlintonSilvey]

The new fr541s are definitely destructible. Big disappointment

[@melbournechugging2999]

Because the mtb industry is all about money bunch of greedy people

[@nanaluke]

Everyone's going to start loosening the nipples on their wheels now 😂 buy shares in your local bike shop, mechanics are going to be inundated with wheel rebuilds lol

[@blangeleven]

The specialized riders certainly look like they run fast rebound to me. Buuuut what do i know.

[@literallyanythingelseother]

Look, heres the reality. 25mm interal was already a perfect size. It had been like that fir years until 2.4+ tires became the new trend. These massive tire trends will wain, and 25mm internal will he waiting for you just like before. The change to 30mm is all about volume and letting people rock 2.6 tires. Its just a fad!

[@duckey599]

henry? did you crash again? :p

[@BGraves]

Why design a bike to be flexible when the suspension does that

[@sergerasklad]

Suspension only works in vertical plane, flex covers the side loads

[@tomnutting3836]

That’s not what suspension does bud Flex in their terms is literal and torsional Suspension is vertical damping of impacts

[@Mile-long-list]

Too rigid means brittle. There has to be some flex. Without it the rest would have to be incredibly thicker materials and heavier

[@Cajo22]

Separate but complementary points…😄

[@ethanspilker7839]

Go ride a few different frame materials back to back and find out. Or even just different frames of the same material. Flex characteristics are extremely important when it comes to how comfortable you are on a bike. My experience is in motocross. I grew up on steel framed bikes in the 90s and early 00s. Once I finally bought an aluminum framed bike, I was never able to get comfortable on it. It was so much more rigid. I was getting too much feedback and having to try and mentally filter what feedback I actually needed to pay attention to from the feedback I needed to ignore. It was also more fatiguing just because it felt like it was rattling me to death. When it was time for another bike, I got one with a steel frame and it was like going back home. I'm more comfortable and confident in corners because it only gives me the feedback I need. I'm not guessing at what the front wheel is doing. It's telling me all I need to know. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[@boogiedownbronx73]

this dude talks so posh

[@streddaz]

He’s just British, that’s how they talk.

[@douglasdimwitty-zs9gx]

Henry sucks, bring back Ben

[@gregorythompson5826]

You suck!

[@elliotwilliams7421]

Sssshhhhh

[@brianburdett3463]

Explain how rim technology "has moved on a bit" from the EX471. Besides the width of course.