CRDA (Converging Runway Display Aid). Real radar tool used by controllers that I have developed for our software for future similar incidents. CRDA is a very useful tool to safely and effectively merge approaching traffic onto converging runways. CRDA creates a ghost target (yellow asterisk) which represents a simulated airplane that would land on a runway (35 in this case) respecting the minimum separation with traffic approaching the other runway (27R in this case). If the real traffic is far ahead or behind the ghost target, the separation at the time both airplanes reach the runway may be lost with the resulting conflict alert. Should a conflict occur, the traffic approaching the slave runway (35) would be the one conducting the missed approach, and not the one approaching the leader runway (27R). That's the explanation why Tower was giving PDT5901 s-turns, so that they would lose some time in order for the ghost target to get closer, thus gaining some separation behind FFT1384. Be advised this radar scope is a simulation developed by VASAviation and NOT THE REAL RADAR SCREEN. Some of the information displayed (altitude, speed or position) may not be exact though it has been created using ADS-B data.
@braincraven5 ай бұрын
I am impress with your visualization tool. It's nice to see how it looks to the controller.
@ABQSentinel5 ай бұрын
Wow, that's some really nice work and great attention to detail! As a pilot, I really enjoy listening to your channel and I appreciate all of the work you put in to make it as useful and accurate to real life as possible.
@doobybrother215 ай бұрын
Nice. Something similar exists in shipping. VTS (ATC for ships) uses this to have a ship wait to cross a main shipping channel (leader runway) when theres traffic or to expedite if there is space/time. Data like position speed and heading comes from the AIS systems.
@classicalroach5 ай бұрын
*for future similar incidents. Yeah.
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
@@braincraven thank you very much. Real controllers from all across the country collaborate with me to improve all details on the radar animation. It really looks very realistic and we are super proud of it.
@diecicatorce62595 ай бұрын
When ATC starts talking like an auctioneer, you know that airport is overloaded
@ValNishino5 ай бұрын
28L going once, 28L going twice, sold! The runway's all yours, United!
@pauld52655 ай бұрын
I would love for an actual auctioneer to make a spoof of this video.😅
@kaimanson31745 ай бұрын
Bro u read my mind...i was about to start putting some $ bills on the table.😂
@N1120A5 ай бұрын
Controllers generally have a cadence on the radio. It helps
@jamescollier35 ай бұрын
Well, it's consistent with destroying the country
@robertbutsch18025 ай бұрын
ATC has Piedmont and Frontier heading for the same piece of pavement. Frontier declares going around and ATC immediately tells Piedmont to go around, so now they’re headed for the same piece of sky. Crazy.
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
Just my thought
@joeythelemur25 ай бұрын
So ATC saw the potential conflict, and wanted to control which of the two aircraft would go around, then when the "wrong" aircraft decided to go around, he was stuck. Seems really bad all around.
@dallasC8225 ай бұрын
Seemed to me like the controller was lured into expectation bias on sending piedmont around. Watching this clip I was drawn into the same idea since frontier was slightly ahead of piedmont on the spacing. Full disclosure I’m not a controller
@andysPARK5 ай бұрын
Yup, crazy
@jimrossi47875 ай бұрын
I appreciate ATC trying to make it work, but an early go-around decision or instruction would have helped the situation immensely. Piedmont tried hard to comply, but at some point, someone has to say enough is enough. Also, if Frontier had used their full callsign and spoken slowly and clearly when announcing their go-around, tower might not have responded by sending Piedmont around. Tower may have thought that was Piedmont announcing a go-around.
@Michigan_Adventures5 ай бұрын
This is one where the controller really wanted to make it work but should have called a go around earlier.
@glenm995 ай бұрын
I thought that too, but on review I can't find when. Part of the controller's job is to make it work, if possible. At 2:25, "the speed and spacing's good." He's clearly reading that off his tools, not guessing. So his best information indicated that it would work. There would be no good justification for calling for a go-around at that time. And it's only a few seconds later that he warns 5901 about the possible go-around. He's on the ball, and he has a workable and clearly communicated backup plan, right? And it's still actually safe when he calls for the go-around. But 1384 did something unexpected... so in hindsight, it probably would have been best to confirm with 1384 that they understood the plan as well. But that doesn't seem to be common procedure.
@ysfsim5 ай бұрын
@@glenm99 agreed
5 ай бұрын
@@glenm99common procedure? They have two crossing runways active at the same fucking time. None of this is common
@cdhagen5 ай бұрын
@@glenm99 It's not a good system if it only works when ATC decides who goes around and who doesn't. Any pilot can decide to go around for whatever reason.
@AEMoreira815 ай бұрын
Or, once one pilot decided to go around, not instruct the other to go around.
@eugeniustheodidactus88905 ай бұрын
_".... everybody is cleared to land..... just be prepared to go around..."_
@l.lehrer71244 ай бұрын
THIS is the best LOL on the board.
@horvath834 ай бұрын
I will never ever understand that policy…
@discovery_a3803 ай бұрын
Exactly, why do you give a clearance if you are going to give it to all aircrafts at all times regardless of the situation?
@EstorilEm5 ай бұрын
Also, this controller was WAY overloaded for the 27s to begin with, but adding intersecting traffic for 35 to shoot the gap?! AND THEN this guy is also handling ground traffic! 🤯 He made a poor decision, but damn - severely overloaded.
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
He is not handling Ground traffic, he is just telling ARRIVALS the taxi route cause it's all straight ahead. There's a Ground frequency.
@twoleftnuts5 ай бұрын
He’s not handling the ground traffic. He’s just working to hand them off to PHL ground. Watch ADSB exchange or FlightRadar and you’ll see that the 27’s are overloaded all day almost every day
@ac9planespotting9055 ай бұрын
@@VASAviationtrue, but it takes away mental capacity in a situation where he needs full focus on the gaps… 😅 would be better to ship them off to the GND when vacated instead of giving them a quick taxi routing. (I’m an ATCO myself) Anyways, it’s impressive that this is their normal working method. It seems crazy to me and incidents like this one seem unavoidable to me as soon as one of the factors (speed, Wx, pilots etc) deviates from the “norm”…
@DLRPyro15 ай бұрын
His decision to land Piedmont on 35 increased his workload and stress level simultaneously
@icufly5 ай бұрын
@@DLRPyro1 he didn't decide to put them on 35, that is standard op for arrival banks at phl
@cwhitty055 ай бұрын
This is SOP here in PHL. They run it tight and often the spacing doesn’t work. One thing you can do as a pilot, is look at your TCAS and find the crossing traffic’s altitude. If you’re within 300ft of their altitude (assuming both aircraft are on a 3° glidepath), someone is going around. Adjust your speed until there is a difference of at least 300ft and you’re safe.
@ZacharyDussault5 ай бұрын
Fucking wild
@andmos10014 ай бұрын
Seriously? This is a recipe for mid air collision
@detroitbucknut5 ай бұрын
857's voice was like "yeah right, this isn't gonna work for anyone"
@TheJerseyAviator5 ай бұрын
Great example of how the Pilot has the final authority in any case. This was way too close for comfort.
@nitehawk865 ай бұрын
Same for Frontier. ATC is always telling planes to speed up on final, a lot of crashes have happened because a pilot accept it when they shouldnt. Frontier just says "negative" and there is no need for further discussion or threats of "I am gonna send you around"
@whatilearnttoday52955 ай бұрын
@@nitehawk86 ATC certainly shouldn't be micromanaging throttle settings during landings. Just nope out of that immediately. Don't even engage.
@RetiredEE5 ай бұрын
Would be interesting if planes had dashcams!
@superlogistics15 ай бұрын
Flying into the US is like trying to kill yourself with these so called ATCs。 Glad its only in the US
@sushka5 ай бұрын
Wow! I’ve been in a very similar situation at PHL just like this one. I was flying a Citation V, and Delta was approaching in an MD90. Spacing wasn’t good, tower called for Delta to go around, they didn’t respond. After two more attempts to get Delta to respond, I was then instructed to go around. At this time Delta finally responded and went around too. Next thing I see is a Delta MD90 coming at me, I leveled my plane at 400 ft and overflew the terminal. After it was all over, ATC thanked me for paying attention.
@gojibean34985 ай бұрын
Ugh.
@spinkid20002 ай бұрын
@@gojibean3498 "Thanks for saving your own life bro" smh
@efoxxok74785 ай бұрын
As a retired controller with 30 years experience I. Chicago I can safely say this is insanely stupid. From the moment I saw the controllers intentions I knew it would not work. Hitting the gap on take offs and landings are one thing, but there is nothing I would consider safe about this. The controller left himself with no outs. Add to that the fact he was working combined positions this was a clear recipe for disaster. If this procedure is SOP for them then a midair is inevitable
@JHollidayB5 ай бұрын
I appreciate a controller’s input. As a pilot and sim instructor, I thought it looked incredibly complex.
@MikeDCWeld5 ай бұрын
@@JHollidayBas absolutely none of the above, I thought it was incredibly stupid and dangerous. I would have initiated the go around as soon as the controller said I would be passing behind someone on the crossing runway. No, sir. Not happening.
@marcelszabo95855 ай бұрын
When you start telling airliners to do S turns for spacing...unable and then the decision is made for the controller one of ems going around.
@KennethAGrimm5 ай бұрын
As a retired ATC equipment design engineer, I concur.
@mattz12305 ай бұрын
or a Tenerife.
@rtroajax5 ай бұрын
"I wanted you to land, and Piedmont to go around"...Well what if Frontier has to go around for any other reason, outside of the dogshit spacing you provided? Are they just SOL? That was terrible.
@abcdfgh43215 ай бұрын
Right!? One bird or gust of wind in the wrong spot and you have a new fatality high score.
@connorb84645 ай бұрын
I thought the same thing. What if they have to go around for any other reason? Just crazy.
@AEMoreira815 ай бұрын
IKR? Frontier was probably watching and realized this wasn’t going to work. The first officer was probably flying and the captain was looking at his 9-o’clock.
@beenaplumber83795 ай бұрын
That perpendicular landing traffic scheme didn't seem to be working at all. Send a few to the parallel and let departing traffic wait a few minutes. This was too much like a video game.
@spinkid20002 ай бұрын
I think he was questioning Frontier to see if they mistook the go around order for them, that's why he answered with "I made the decision" probably wanted to say something else ..............................
@SimNico5 ай бұрын
This week's US ATC near miss just dropped ✨
@sandeegrey59775 ай бұрын
Yeah the US sucks
@QemeH5 ай бұрын
Another one! [Insert DJ Khaled meme here]
@LTIFEX5 ай бұрын
The week isn't nearly over yet
@IntoTheNothing15 ай бұрын
Week? You mean todays.
@captaincarl20795 ай бұрын
yeah because this never happens anywhere else, clowns lol
@silmarian5 ай бұрын
One thing that isn’t discussed enough is how atc is scheduled. They move through the entire 24 hour cycle, so each shift is earlier than the last and sometimes there are two shifts a day. The human body just doesn’t deal well with that kind of schedule. While I understand the argument that they need to be up to speed on all times of day, making people go from day to night and back over the course of a week again plays merry hell with their circadian rhythm.
@BruiserFL5 ай бұрын
This is soooo true. Better ATC rest rules are desperately needed. My ATC friend (Class B- major airport) got off work around midnight and had to be back 8 hours later. Oh, and they have a 45-min drive each way. I couldn't believe it when they told me that.
@Sn4k3f1st5 ай бұрын
is this one of the fields in which a (fully trained 10000% proven) AI would help?
@AwesomeReshiram5 ай бұрын
@@Sn4k3f1stlol hell no. ai fucks up giving me the location of pokemon in a pokemon game you don't want it handling planes.
@Jmjbs5 ай бұрын
@@BruiserFLwell that's just not true either your friend is exaggerating or he's counting his commute as his working hours. The current minimum rest is 9 hours and it's increasing to 10 hours next year.
@grayrabbit22115 ай бұрын
@@Sn4k3f1st NOPE. I say that as a pilot. If they were to start that crap, I'll be flying out of uncontrolled airports exclusively.
@scottadair49625 ай бұрын
S turns, speed changes, converging traffic on short final. Yeah this ought to work.
@aaronsmith18404 ай бұрын
Thats Philly for ya
@scpowered5 ай бұрын
It seems this practice doesn't leave any room for error. Both aircraft need to have an "out" AND be able to do so safely at the same time.
@rc24caldwell195 ай бұрын
Note to self....if offered a flight that connects in Philly, just say no....if that is Standard Operating Procedure there, that seems like an accident waiting to happen?
@twoleftnuts5 ай бұрын
They’re usually much better than this. Especially with the CDRP
@andrewfielding13425 ай бұрын
Happens everyday bro. 🤷🏻♂️
@AEMoreira815 ай бұрын
That usually means you’re on American. PHL is a fortress hub for American.
@MartyMcFly291675 ай бұрын
It is insane that this is allowed. Everything involved in this scenario needs fixed - better traffic flow, clearances, runway configuration etc.
@KevBotM5 ай бұрын
It certainly does, you can't just cut into safety margins like this. Things working out safely 99.999% of the time isn't good enough when almost 300,000 aircraft are handled per year and planes need to land every 30 seconds at peak times. But how do you fix it? You aren't allowed to reduce the amount of traffic or build more runways. Also, you have a budget.
@BenLovejoy5 ай бұрын
Also insane that aircraft are 'cleared to land' when there are other aircraft ahead of them. In any sane ATC system, the instruction is 'Continue' so that they know they can keep coming for now but a landing clearance is not assured until the runway is, you know, clear.
@HitechProductions5 ай бұрын
@@BenLovejoy 👏👏👏
@zone5photoYT5 ай бұрын
@@BenLovejoy that would be extremely inefficient and potentially dangerous. Setting the sequence early and getting those clearances done early frees up a lot of air on the radio. If every controller had to wait to clear an aircraft to land until the aircraft in front of them exited the runway there would be way more frequency congestion. This would result in confusion as everyone would be stepping on each other trying to get that last second landing clearance.
@BenLovejoy5 ай бұрын
@@zone5photoYT Not at all: It happens absolutely everywhere other than the US, AFAIK
@ep570885 ай бұрын
Feels like the controller was assuming / depending on Frontier not going around. Regardless of their decision to go around for this spacing, Frontier could very well have gone around for an unrelated reason, and the controller didn't seem to have space for that possibility.
@kid2digit5 ай бұрын
"I wanted you to land and the other guy was going to go around", just depending on who got there first? I imagine the controller standing there looking back and forth like a tennis match trying to gauge it. Madness.
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
The radar system would tell you who is going to pass ahead and behind
@pauljones63215 ай бұрын
Sorry ATC, couldn’t read your mind! How about communicating next time! Oh, and Piedmont thanks you for creating a very unstable approach, which is also dangerous. Good thing both pilots saved the lives of everyone on board.
@algernonftw425 ай бұрын
@@pauljones6321 He... literally said it out loud. ATC said on frequency that if spacing wasn't good, Piedmont would go around. And S-turns are not creating a "very unstable approach." They are a very common tool that professional pilots have no problem using for spacing reasons.
@MikeDCWeld5 ай бұрын
@@algernonftw42 Frontier fixed the spacing issue and the controller still gave Piedmont a go around, with a *_right_*_ turn_ no less. Of course, it never should have been an issue in the first place because crossing runways shouldn't be used simultaneously.
@whatilearnttoday52955 ай бұрын
There is an overlap in that Venn diagram where both pilots are confused and everyone dies.
@mrwjs5 ай бұрын
Let's add complexity and risk the lives of hundreds just to land a few more planes on intersecting runways. WTF!
@noahandthejets5 ай бұрын
That's kind of how it's done at LaGuardia. You can have a plane land on 4 and, as soon as it vacates the runway, a plane departures on the perpendicular 31. The cycle then repeats, with a plane landing or taking off roughly every minute.
@andrewfielding13425 ай бұрын
This is done all day every day at most busy airports. 🤷🏻♂️
@AEMoreira815 ай бұрын
Like LGA but even worse. In this situation, regional jets go to 35 from the south and everything else is 27R. Occasionally 26 is also used.
@icufly5 ай бұрын
better not hear you complaining about your 30 minute delay ever again in that case
@mrwjs5 ай бұрын
@@icufly Hmm, a plane potentially crashing in to my plane or a 30-minute delay... Tough choice.
@cageordie5 ай бұрын
So many S turns. This is not right.
@Ndub10365 ай бұрын
“Stabilized approach”
@cageordie5 ай бұрын
@@Ndub1036 Not challenging enough.
@Ndub10365 ай бұрын
@@cageordie too safe
@pzag7775 ай бұрын
I think they were left S turns.
@jimk51455 ай бұрын
@@pzag777 I see what you did there. For the record though, ATC did throw in a right S-turn, just to make it more super extra stabilized.
@86poulin5 ай бұрын
Same thing happened to me at BOS. We were on final for 27 and had a heavy that had at least 30 knots landing on 33L. They are bringing us in too tight. I decided to go around and if the heavy went around at all, it would have been close. Stay safe out there and make good decisions, ATC doesn't tell you when to go around, you make the decision to go around.
@craigmcallister23105 ай бұрын
“Cleared to land, number four” just sounds wrong.
@seanross95752 ай бұрын
Yeah, that's not a thing in Canada at least. You're number 4 in the approach. You're cleared to land once you actually have an empty runway in front of you.
@prosoto5 ай бұрын
LOL. We literally do this every day at Teterboro :D. That was nothing.
@lalomcnombres725 ай бұрын
Used to land 35 all the time with Air Wisconsin. It is extremely difficult to pick up the 27 traffic visually as the city in the background camouflages them. If we had less than 300' of vertical separation between us and the other plane on TCAS we would just inform ATC we were doing S turns for separation. PHL controllers do a wonderful job but you also have to be proactive in the flight deck and no what is and isn't going to work.
@jonathankleinow20735 ай бұрын
Is that why they're doing this? I'm trying to figure out why they would have any traffic landing on the intersecting runway rather than just sequence them in for 27R. If it was to get a couple more planes to land every hour, well, if (when) something goes wrong like this, now you're getting fewer planes on the ground and putting lives at risk on top of it.
@icufly5 ай бұрын
@@jonathankleinow2073 Just remember this thinking when you get delayed without weather or mechanical issues.
@lalomcnombres725 ай бұрын
Totally normal operation. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. We used to land 26 as well, but that went away per company or ATC, don't remember who. DCA also crams you in- we always would brief the circle to land 33 when on visual to 1 as it was pretty common to be changed right before the bridge.
@THATSMYCABANASHIRT5 ай бұрын
This is absolutely insane the rate at which these incidents are occurring,
@EstorilEm5 ай бұрын
That’s like people talking about record high and low temperatures every season, but ignoring the previous record (1/10th of a degree different) from the 1800’s. This stuff happens all the time, you just never heard about it previously.
@millerkarns5 ай бұрын
@@UncleSubBass Yep. Exactly.
@THATSMYCABANASHIRT5 ай бұрын
@@UncleSubBass I mean that definitely plays a factor but we’re definitely headed down a bad path. I think there were something like 23 class A and B runway incursions in 2023, up from 16 in 2022, and just in the start of 2024 alone we’re already at 7 serious incidents. We’ve gotten lucky but eventually that luck is going to run out. Something as trivial as a foggy morning could cause a major disaster, I feel like anyway, if we keep going in the direction we are going. (At least in the us) I also should state I think our ATC controllers do an amazing job with the resources they have available to them. They definitely need to hire more controllers and give them some help!
@whatilearnttoday52955 ай бұрын
@@UncleSubBass The stress is put on everyone by airport operators and FAA setting these standards based on profit.
@whatilearnttoday52955 ай бұрын
@@EstorilEm It's happening at an ever increasing rate.
@floatinflyinandfishing5 ай бұрын
OMG…this craziness will not end before someone is picking up parts off a runway. there is no way for a pilot to know what the plan is and the go around itself could cause a crash as it almost did here. he never mentioned who he wanted to turn right. had piedmont turned right there could have been even more conflict. THIS is deregulation and ceding to the industry gets you
@JohnD3575 ай бұрын
This is what forcing people to get an unproven jab gets you. Experienced people quit, leaving you understaffed and with inexperienced staff.
@logicplague5 ай бұрын
@@JohnD357That, and hiring people based on arbitrary physical traits.
@biscuitag975 ай бұрын
First S-turn request was pushing it, the second S-turn request was beyond comprehension. Bring them back around my goodness.
@Jsjsjjssjs5 ай бұрын
@@JohnD357you’re insane
@joeythelemur25 ай бұрын
Airlines were deregulated in 1978.
@ClayR115 ай бұрын
I often fly into PHL with my company. We land 17/35 because it’s an easy taxi into the corporate ramp. It’s amazing how they time it and just last week I did the approach and it worked out flawlessly. I can see how this can happen! Glad they all got out safe.
@NICU_Guy5 ай бұрын
This video reminded me of the Demolition Derby Figure Eight races.
@TrueSight_3335 ай бұрын
I'm a passenger flying into PHL tomorrow. This gives me great comfort =|
@FreshTillDeath565 ай бұрын
In theory, it should. With this incident so fresh in the tower's heads, they should be more alert. 🤔
@heyinway5 ай бұрын
sucks to be you....if you survive the landing, you have to survive drug infested Philly...best of luck
@notmyname9985 ай бұрын
Let's hope we don't find your flight on another youtube channel (if you know what I mean)
@jimosborne25 ай бұрын
@@heyinwaythere’s drug abuse in every county in America. Thanks to big pharma ( like the Zackler family)
@ma9x7955 ай бұрын
Good luck.
@skippynj19795 ай бұрын
I flew for Piedmont for some time. Both dash and 145. We used to use the tcas back than to estimate spacing. If traffic had more than 300 feet altitude separation on the crossing runway it work out well when landing 35 vs 27r. If you're altitude and your traffic altitude we similar, you were arriving at the pavement at the same time. I was a wimp. If it was looking close at 500 feet.. south side of the river we were going around. Glad everyone was safe and hopefully we learn from the incident.
@cantstandtheestablishment40045 ай бұрын
Simultaneous approaches on crossing runways...not very smart. It's one thing if you have arrivals on one, and departures on another (like at LGA).
@kevinscoggin32865 ай бұрын
I work crossing runways with arrivals all the time. This guy was just running it too tight. Gotta give yourself an out.
@AeroGraphica5 ай бұрын
Reminds me of the movie "2:22" (2017) , where the ATC prevented a collision in a situation that looked completely improbable at the time. Well, not so much any more...
@MichaelJM5 ай бұрын
According to the ATSB data they were within 75 feet in altitude when Piedmont was just beyond the end of the runway. At that point the 2 planes were around 1700 feet (in distance) from each other. It was around then that Piedmont started to go around and increased altitude, with a slight right. But it seems Piedmont almost flew right over Frontier probably within 100 feet in altitude. Importing the KML data into Google Earth makes this look insane. Controller should have called the go around for Piedmont much sooner.
@Honeycomblife5 ай бұрын
Atc needs to write doen a number! In this event!
@spinkid20002 ай бұрын
What is also scary is that the go around procedure for Piedment was to turn right which is where all of those inbound AC where lined up on final.
@buttersPbutters5 ай бұрын
ATC can't always get what they want. The pilot in command is ultimately responsible for the safe operation of the flight, and they also have aircraft and company procedures which may take priority over ATC instructions. In this case, ATC can't order Frontier to land if the PIC's judgement is that they need to go-around. In another scenario, ATC may not be able to get an aircraft to turn if they're executing the windshear escape procedure rather than a normal go-around. ATC can get themselves into a situation where they think they can vector their way out of it if it doesn't work, but sometimes they'll get an "unable" in response to their deconfliction instructions. Or somebody could be transmitting on the frequency when ATC wants to give an urgent instruction.
@beenaplumber83795 ай бұрын
The controller told Frontier after the fact that he wanted Jet Blue to go around. Maybe calling Jet Blue's go around earlier would have helped, or maybe letting both aircraft know his intentions earlier would have been safer. He knew what he wanted, but the pilots didn't.
@Taylexwow5 ай бұрын
2 intersecting landing runways is bad enough without trying to play how close can we get them......damn If you are calling out turns like that to keep separation right thats going to fail eventually.
@friendlygiant25025 ай бұрын
Remember the film, where the ATC asks the pilot in similar situation to - punch it!😅
@alexhndr5 ай бұрын
The day it actually said on real air frequency is the doomsday
@Dream.of.Endless5 ай бұрын
Yeah, but in that case, one was landing and the other that punched it was departing. Still, what can you say, too many liberties on a TV series.
@BlackOpSource5 ай бұрын
@@markgr1nyer That line is from a movie called 2:22, not Pushing Tin.
@rossaimer2285 ай бұрын
Our airspace and airports are saturated. ATC relies on pilot cooperation and precision flying to make it work. Occasional go-arounds are the result. Otherwise everyone will be sitting on gate holds for hours at a time. I understand these realities because I started flying 707s sixty years ago, and stopped flying private jets only six months ago. I sure am glad to be finally retired!
@gracelandone5 ай бұрын
Glad you made such a long career safely. I’m sure your experience will be missed.
@beenaplumber83795 ай бұрын
Go-arounds are fine, but this controller made safe go-arounds impossible. There was no plan-B.
@NorCalTRACON5 ай бұрын
If that was his plan, what would’ve happen if the Frontier needs to go around for a different reason?
@connorb84645 ай бұрын
That’s exactly what I was thinking. It doesn’t make any sense to me.
@caiolinnertel87775 ай бұрын
I’m retired controller and this “betting the come” as we used to call it, we most definitely how not to use positive separation. The CRDA tool is great, but this controller sure wasn’t using it. Scary
@overhead185 ай бұрын
People are assuming this type of thing is happening more often, not sure that is true. What is true is we have the data available to track, the ATC recordings and people like @VASAviation who take the time to put together these attractive videos which illustrate what is happening. Large airports have been using crosswind runways for a very very long time. New airports generally are being built with parallel runways. Seems safety is part of the reason, but the driver is getting the planes in and out quicker is easier with the parallel runways and planes can handle the crosswinds better than they use to. 10 years ago the only people that would have known about this event were the controllers involved, the pilots on the frequency and maybe the passengers.
@jimk51455 ай бұрын
So, it's all Victor@vasAviation's fault? I'd prefer to think that only awareness can lead to improvements.
@overhead185 ай бұрын
@@jimk5145 Why in the world would you think I was assigning blame to someone? I am stating an opinion about the comments here and on other videos that claim these events are happening more often. Your White knighting is misplaced here.
@Ba_A5 ай бұрын
Excellent video. This is really insane.... it's not a matter of "if", it's "when" 😮
@DesertEMT3205 ай бұрын
So, I have a question for any controllers here. What are the negative outcomes from not trying to do this kind of sequencing? Do controllers face disciplinary action for opting to create more spacing between arrivals? Are there fines involved from making aircraft late? Do air carriers complain about that, and does it carry weight against the controller? Is it just a function of how over saturated the system is that trying to create more space just clogs everything up worse?
@icufly5 ай бұрын
None. If they hold aircraft to go to the same runway they get blowback from management.
@BlackOpSource5 ай бұрын
The airport has an arrival rate - determined first theoretically and then operationally - based on both the configuration and the weather. You have to be able to keep operating near that rate. If the final controller can't or won't do that, they'll back up the feeder, and then the center. Initially, nothing would happen except maybe a conversation with the operations supervisor. If you kept it up, it would result in some retraining or possibly decertification eventually. The job of controllers at least at busy airports has always been to push as much metal as possible, and that fact means that they can't all be winners. Final sent PDT to tower out of position, and then tower tried really hard to save it. Personally I think he probably should have given up a mile or so earlier but I don't work at Philly. Either way, the reason is obvious: Every approach that ends in a go around is another three to five miles you're eating up on final, and it's another 90 seconds of spacing you'll never get back. Bottom line: The pressure is always, always on to run them tight, both as a matter of not screwing over the controller feeding you, and as an official matter of performance.
@williamedwards15285 ай бұрын
This is nuts, kinda like doing an airborne zipper merge. As others have said, it's only a matter of time before this too tight spacing leads to a disaster. Shouldn't have to do S-turns on final if properly sequenced.
@kiddi3smalls5 ай бұрын
It’s a tough job they have. Imagine just you sequencing 40-60 planes in per/hour non stop for 8 hours straight. Also keeping in mind standard approach speeds, wind/ground speed. These guys are under a tremendous amount of stress. But it’s the only way to sequence at Philly with the amount of traffic and runway configuration they have
@devinwright78285 ай бұрын
@@kiddi3smalls I'm a nobody, but this traffic seems so dangerous and reliant on perfect timing and decisions. No idea how this is allowed.
@adamw.85795 ай бұрын
@@kiddi3smalls Plus ATC have a line of aircrafts with very different approach speeds... tough job.
@charlesmoore17625 ай бұрын
" airborne zipper merge " EXACTLY! 👍
@jamesphillips22855 ай бұрын
@@kiddi3smalls Maybe they should install high-speed rail to relieve some of the traffic. Edit: remembered this is the East coast: there actually IS rail service on Amtrak. About 90 minutes to New York.
@swiftski5 ай бұрын
That was never going to work. Plan continuation bias from ATC for sure. Also - the separation needs to work even if both aircraft go around.
@hornetgamer89805 ай бұрын
The existence of the situation is 100% on people other than the pilots (primarily ATC but unquestionably those runways were being sweated to their limits). But I feel the lack of warning of the go-around call was a rare case of Aviate, Navigate, Communicate being applied correctly but inaccurately. A nudge to ATC that they weren't comfortable prior to the go-around would likely have resulted in the other plane being sent around.
@Avanti655 ай бұрын
Two airliners are going to collide on or near the ground at speed this year, the way we are heading. Let’s hope it’s not like Tenerife.
@michmart92615 ай бұрын
How is this "pushing planes onto the crossing runways with smallest possible sep" even legal?!
@whatilearnttoday52955 ай бұрын
Profit.
@icufly5 ай бұрын
as long as one is through the intersection before the other is over the numbers it's legal (and done dozens of times everyday at older airports with crossing runways)
@markmaki44605 ай бұрын
For some reason, i think of the old arcade game Frogger.
@EstorilEm5 ай бұрын
Controller sounded the part, and super confident - but WTF?! “You gained some speed there” - seriously? Oh damn, instead of 1/8 mile separation now you’ve gotta measure it in feet instead? 🤦♂️ This was never a good idea, but I’m not sure why approach didn’t just vector them into the 27 pattern instead of worrying about the intersection; with all that 27 traffic piled up, that looked like a nearly impossible feat.
@BlackOpSource5 ай бұрын
Presumably because the finals for 27 are already full up, so they start offloading to the crossing runway. Too many airplanes, not enough pavement. Common problem.
@theedisnotamused5 ай бұрын
With this many incidents happening, can we please start talking about the management in ATC facilities? While its understood that we have a lot of green ATCs these days, this happening this frequently isn't an individual ATC problem; its a management and leadership problem. The FAA has got to start pushing back on airlines and their insane demands that lead to this insanity being a semi-standard practice. Its only a matter of time before this madness gets hundreds of people killed. Min/Maxing the airlines' turnaround is not worth playing Russian roulette with the lives of the flying public.
@whatilearnttoday52955 ай бұрын
It's the airport operators and FAA sitting in a room deciding what is `profitable > safe`.
@FrankfurtAvgeek5 ай бұрын
Air Traffic Flow Management or Airport CDM would be great to implement like it is in the EU. Doesn‘t make sense to have 20 or more planes qeueing at the runway and waiting for takeoff with Running engines. Use the capacity wisely and not overload the controllers.
@rael54695 ай бұрын
WAIT.....Frontier said they were going around.....and then Tower told Piedmont to also go-around. YIKES ! Why not just let Frontier go around and let Piedmont land since Frontier called it first ???
@jonbaldwin5 ай бұрын
What did they even think they were doing on this one? Absolutely crazy...
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
It worked with the Falcon and it works every other day
@Strathclydegamer5 ай бұрын
@@VASAviation”this is how we’ve always done it” - that’s not a good argument. Not every safety rule has to be written in blood, it is possible to preempt and prevent. It seems every time someone from Europe, or somewhere else where having 4 aircraft all cleared to land on the same strip of land is viewed as insanity, raises concerns about how things are done in the US, they inevitably run into the “this is how it’s always been done and no-one’s died yet” argument. It just screams American Exceptionalism.
@Quotenwagnerianer5 ай бұрын
@@Strathclydegamer You forget the usual: "Our Airspace is too busy. We have to do it this way." excuse. Perhaps then make the airpsace less busy and reduce slots by at least 15%? ;)
@jonbaldwin5 ай бұрын
@@VASAviation you say it works every other day but you are one of the world's leading creators of near miss videos!
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
@@jonbaldwin talking about this one system, which created a near miss a few days ago. The rest of near misses are not related to converging runway approaches. Trafic jumping the hold short bar... that's not a system. That's a human factor thing.
@k2477-o3n5 ай бұрын
Having operated there for years, it’s amazing to me that PHL doesn’t have close calls dailyx
@bryan815845 ай бұрын
that's what you call a DAT, Dead ass Tie.
@suzieb83665 ай бұрын
it would only take a small mechanical incident or human error for that whole situation to take a fatal turn. That's a crazy overloaded airfield.
@MrKeithsplace5 ай бұрын
Dam that’s a busy place
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
And you're just visualizing PHL arrivals, not departures and VFR traffic around
@matthewmcmillan25074 ай бұрын
I’m surprised the Frontier decided to go around. Listening to the frequency, I would have assumed he knew both tower and PDT were clear that PDT would go around if spacing was too close. Them going around I think threw the controller off which caused him to tell the PDT to go around since he was already expecting for them to go around and not the Frontier.
@afrophoenix31115 ай бұрын
Was Tower also giving taxi instructions to ground traffic? I feel that's just begging for trouble. Running two (three?) converging active runways is already a huge workload. ATC staff are really getting squeezed.
@Matt-mo8sl5 ай бұрын
Man, I wish I coulda gotten an ATC job outta school but the FAA hiring freeze in the 90's kept me out and now I'm too old. I always feared those scenarios when I was in school, just too much on your plate. As a private pilot, I got boxed into a bad spot by the controller during simultaneous ops on intersecting runways. I recognized the potential conflict and was ready to act if needed and it was needed. Controllers can get themselves cornered. Sometimes, I'm glad I didn't get a job.
@onemercilessming13425 ай бұрын
Anyone who has EVER flown out of PHL knows what a disaster that airport is. It was awful in the 1970s and in the 2010s had not gotten any better.
@jochampley5 ай бұрын
A few years back I had a meeting in Philadelphia. As a retired controller who is familiar with what a cluster f@ck PHL is I chose to fly into Baltimore, rented a car, and took my chances on Interstate 95.
@onemercilessming13425 ай бұрын
@@jochampley It could have been worse. You could have taken the "Sure Kill."
@derimmor5 ай бұрын
This somehow remind me Figure8 racing. I dont think that its safe to practice that with airplanes o.O
@charlesmoore17625 ай бұрын
Exactly! 😁
@ronaldscott7815 ай бұрын
Very impressive. But at what point is there too many too soon? Seems like an insolvable problem with so much pressure to get them all on the ground on time and on target.
@andrasbagyuj15405 ай бұрын
That's a good example of having efficiency above safety on the priority list...
@TheHikingHoosier5 ай бұрын
Seems stressful having 2 crossing runways with landing traffic like that
@FlyingDoctor605 ай бұрын
This is yet one more reason why, despite three trips a month out of the southeastern US for business, I WILL NOT book a flight into or through PHL. Hope is not a plan, dude! Approaches need to be stabilized from both the pilot's perspective and the controller's too. If the controller can't be confident that the plan is going to work and that there's space for either aircraft to go around, then things are too tight and need to be changed. The moment the controller said, "If this doesn't work..." Spirit should have said, "We're going around, request vectors for 27R." That everyone survived this was pure luck, and that's not how any of this is supposed to work.
@sethpython89685 ай бұрын
Uhh… according to adsb exchange these planes flew directly over the same spot with less than 500 feet of clearance…
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
Approximately 300ft
@lastdance20995 ай бұрын
I can understand having planes take off from one runway and land on another in the case of intersecting runways, or even planes taking off from both runways, but planes landing on both runways? Seems like more risk than it's worth.
@amyyyyy245 ай бұрын
Good situational awareness from Piedmont to not turn right directly into oncoming traffic, assuming they maintained visual separation with Frontier. If I were the pilots, I’d be asking tower to write down a number…
@Mr_Plop15 ай бұрын
The real question is why is this person doing both local and ground at the same time? Dangerously high workload.
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
He is NOT working Ground
@Mr_Plop15 ай бұрын
@@VASAviation Wasn't he instructing AA to go to the ramp at 1:48, Bluestreak at 2:25, there were no runway crossing clearances involved, it could've been delegated to another controller.
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
@@Mr_Plop1 Tower instructing planes to the gate is very, very common since it's a right away taxi. Ground controller is busy with all other traffic taxiing to depart, tugs, vehicles...
@icufly5 ай бұрын
just say you don't know what you're talking about
@Mr_Plop15 ай бұрын
@@icufly enlighten us Michael Whitaker.
@davidwebb49045 ай бұрын
I dont like this dual approach layout. The sooner the new airport is built the safer everyone will be.
@oelschlegel5 ай бұрын
What new airport
@davidwebb49045 ай бұрын
@@oelschlegel The megahub in NJ that will replace PHL EWR LGA and JFK. Connected with the new high speed along the NE corridor. 10 runways. Will make DEN and ORD look a bit third world.
@pjotrtje0NL5 ай бұрын
@@davidwebb4904ehm, is that close to becoming a reality, or just someone’s wet dream?
@kjisnot5 ай бұрын
@@davidwebb4904 I remember flying into Denver a couple of months after it opened. The UAL pilot mentioned something along the lines of "Us pilots want to thank the people of Denver for building this airport. We love all of the space and long runways making flying a lot easier and safer for us."
@BlackOpSource5 ай бұрын
@@davidwebb4904 Anything is possible when you just make shit up, eh?
@joereedsmith15315 ай бұрын
IN the USA there has been 20 of these near misses caused by ATC this year alone. Its just a matter of time before there is a disaster. Next week or 12 months the clock is ticking and the FAA is to blame.
@neutralcommenter78005 ай бұрын
2:35 This is where the controller should have just told 5901 to go around. Once the controller observed the potential that "it's gonna be tight" then one of the planes has to go around.
@crypto17015 ай бұрын
Piedmont definitely should have been told to go around earlier.
@cheapercharlie5 ай бұрын
I don't understand why not get the Piedmont into the flow versus an intersecting landing?
@nathankoon77495 ай бұрын
seems like they were getting all the GA aircraft to land on one runway, and all the commercial jets on the other
@Christopher-cr4qk5 ай бұрын
Piedmont operates turboprop planes. In Philly they use RWY 35, since it is a smaller meter runway, that is perfect for turboprops, and they have different wake turbulence allowances than bigger type planes that were landing on RWY 27.
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
You land more planes in less time. Easy.
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
@@Christopher-cr4qk Piedmont uses E145, not turboprops
@Christopher-cr4qk5 ай бұрын
@@VASAviation ah really? i thought they use the dash 8.. or did at least thank you for the correction.
@CKOD5 ай бұрын
If you thought parallel approaches (The kind where planes are close, but not close enough they force the planes to sync up for the landing, and dedicate a controller and additional radio frequency to the task) was sketch, you'll love this!
@sethpython89685 ай бұрын
"I wanted you to land and the other guy was going to go around". damn I didn't realize ATC was in the cockpit making the final decisions
@ZacharyDussault5 ай бұрын
I'm just imagining that scene from Chapelle show where he was dressed as Rick James and kicking the couch but he's saying "FUCK YO STABLE APPROACH"
@theresacaron42385 ай бұрын
This controller is trying too hard to get everyone down seconds apart on crossing runways, insanity, especially when giving landing clearances to traffic that is following other traffic and nowhere near short final. Only in the US, I don't believe this practice exists in other countries, accident waiting to happen. The two intersecting jets decided to go around at the same time, very lucky that a midair did not occur. It is a question of when, not if.
@qwerty1123115 ай бұрын
You clowns have been saying it’ll happen soon for years and will be saying it in years. Tight sequencing at big airports has been a thing in the US for many years, yet I’m unaware of any crashes caused by it. In fact, the US has had a single part 121 passenger fatality in the past decade (southwest uncontained engine failure) and four in the past 15 years (three on Asiana’s unquestionably pilot error crash). Australia is the only inhabited continent with anywhere near that level of safety.
@MikeDCWeld5 ай бұрын
Actually, Frontier decided to go around but the controller instructed Piedmont to go around right after. He even initially turned them _towards_ the crossing runway's approaching traffic.
@oldguydoesstuff1205 ай бұрын
Why on earth is the controller attempting to land people on crossing runways like this? Put Piedmont into the conga line with everyone else. If they have to taxi longer on the ground, so be it. Are we prioritizing safety over profits, or profits over safety?
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
Both. This system works every other day when this configuration is in force
@oldguydoesstuff1205 ай бұрын
@@VASAviation Well, on a technical level, it worked this time, too. There was no crash. Planes managed to avoid each other and everyone landed uneventfully (even if a bit late). But how much extra fuel did those two planes burn by going around, and how much fuel might have been saved by the shorter taxi? More importantly, will the system work next time? Any system that demands precise timing between two planes on an intersecting course is, at some point, going to fail.
@VASAviation5 ай бұрын
@@oldguydoesstuff120 The system did work next time, you can see the Falcon landing on 35. And the next time, you can see it too. And the next time as well, also displayed. I guess the fuel burnt during these 2 go arounds is even less than the fuel burnt if all the arrivals for 35 would have had to fly the pattern for 27R, get in the conga line, and create a nice line of arrivals for 27R.
@userSchlonsch5 ай бұрын
What did the controller think was gonna do? The PIC has the responsibility for his plane and passengers, he’s not gonna commit to something like this based on a “trust me bro“. The controller might have wanted the other plane to go around and had a plan in his head but that would’ve required the Frontier pilot to give up control over the situation and rely on ATC and the other plane to do the right thing. Respect to the Frontier crew for realizing they weren’t comfort with that and making their decision, exactly the mindset I‘d want my pilots to have as a passenger.
@Flysooner95 ай бұрын
Nothing to see here. Standard day in Philly. Frontier dorked it up not knowing how traffic works in Philly.
@RadioNul5 ай бұрын
There are what, six different planes cleared to land at the same time, on two intersecting runways. US ATC needs to stop this advanced landing clearance.
@charleskennedy17125 ай бұрын
You can’t shoot the gap with two arriving flights. If one is taking off and one is landing then yes. But this is just crazy. American ATC begs for disaster, also illustrated by clearing four aircraft to land at once. In the UK, one aircraft is cleared to land at a time, the others are told, continue approach, runway occupied
@Timmie3605 ай бұрын
The visual on this simulated radar isn't great, but it doesn't look like there was any real danger. The Piedmont & Frontier both had a clear visual of each other & full control. Still a much smaller chance of disaster than when the pilots jumped in their cars headed to the hotel.
@broker50025 ай бұрын
It's a matter of time before we have a disaster.
@orlovsskibet5 ай бұрын
well that statement is always true.
@casperthegm7415 ай бұрын
Agreed, unfortunately. Most issues I'm seeing these days are related to either the ATC or pilots missing something during landing/takeoff instructions. Until staffing is worked out we really need to get some kind of automated system in place that backs up the human factor. They have TCAS for in-flight but need something like that on the ground.
Nothing has changed, that’s like saying it’s a matter of time before we get a heavy rainstorm again. There are thousands of flights a day, we just never used to hear about it due to social media / YT etc.
@millerkarns5 ай бұрын
@@EstorilEm exactly.
@rarefind3d5 ай бұрын
Another one where I was praying for a pilot to tell the tower they have a number for him to call. Insanity.
@weaselworm86815 ай бұрын
We used to have professional ATC with their own union. They thought they had more power than they really did. But there is a reason why ATC resources are scarce and we as nation decided to take that course. Cheaper but less safe.
@vinihfsx5 ай бұрын
They're waiting for a disaster. Then they will fix sometthing
@dafox04275 ай бұрын
@@weaselworm8681 I am certain that it has absolutely nothing to do with the year over year increase in air traffic and movements since the mid 80s coupled with the failure of the FAA to modernize and upgrade equipment as quickly. But, I get it. Blame it all on Reagan.
@Ghost_Hybrid5 ай бұрын
@@weaselworm8681 Since when do government worker unions push for quality of service?
@dashriprock43085 ай бұрын
@@vinihfsx If I was Piedmont, I would have requested vectors for 27R instead of accepting 35. Looked way too dicey with that many aircraft inbound for 27R. But that is just me.
@MrSamueljcat5 ай бұрын
Tic Toc Murica...Your Tenerife is not far away.
@generalsturgeon60074 ай бұрын
I am a Philly based pilot and the amount of times this has happened to me or in front of me is a high amount. Philly controllers like to keep it tight.
@brianporkchop22775 ай бұрын
23-year Class B tower snd approach controller here - They do this operatiom all day everyday and one got away from him a little. You can tell relative motion (not a collision course) from looking out of the window in the tower, and that information is not available.in this video, nor is the controller's experience from doing this operation successfully probably thousands of times. Trust me, it ALWAYS looks worse on radar than in person, He may have pushed an unworkable situation a bit or maybe not, but that's the stuff we deal with all day. Of course the comments are full of sensationalism and know-it-alls. Give us a big raise, more than one day off per week, keep.paying your taxes, and in no way do my opinions reflect the opinions of the FAA.
@goldboy35055 ай бұрын
Say what you will about the tower controller but these are 2 IFR arrivals inbound to intersecting runways. The approach control should have these guys separated not handing tower a DAT.
@IanGouki5 ай бұрын
Philadelphia Tower, possible ATC deviation. Contact FAA for retraining.
@gregaleksandrovsky58065 ай бұрын
Used to be based in PHL and landed 35 many times. I've had to go around 2x in Philly because of the spacing for 27R/35. The Frontier guy was probably unaware that the 27R arrivals have priority and 35 has to go around if spacing isn't good. From my experience there, if they ever asked for S turns, it usually meant it was never going to work. Also Approach has a terrible tendency there to make us go from 250 to 170 right away...which takes a decent amount of distance especially when descending.
@JohnLemieux5 ай бұрын
"I wanted you to land and the other guy was gonna go around" Not how it works!
@michmart92615 ай бұрын
Frontier going around definitelly ruined his plan, thats why it would have been nice to communicate that plan before.
@k1mgy5 ай бұрын
The controller did communicate his future intentions, but did not include the Frontier crew in the transmission. Crews landing have enough to deal with. Being glued to the radio and trying to piece together the (horrific, deteriorating) situation is not one of them. The controller should have stated his intention to BOTH aircraft, with a readback. VERY POOR FORM.
@feynthefallen4 ай бұрын
Traffic overload is really getting out of hand. It's only a matter of time until we get the big one that KZbin videos in ten years will claim "changed aviation forever"
@flomoose73155 ай бұрын
Jeez… ground, tower, intersecting landing, this amount of traffic… time for a second Controller- or a holding… Apart from all this: is this „make s turns“ on short final a normal thing?? Never heard it anywhere and never saw it in Europe…