Bannings Mega Podcast | Commander Clash Podcast 167

[@thordagreat]

"We're recording this on a thursday. You wont see this until tuesday." Me who's listening on a saturday

[@jackl8025]

👁️👄👁️

[@kerthwack8470]

I fully believed it was tuesday for a good minute

[@brtthys1]

It’s not Tuesday?

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

Initially we were planning to stick to the normal schedule, but the editing was done early. Figured it was worth getting this one up early since its a timely topic.

[@Alex-eo8mv]

@@MTGGoldfishCommander will we have another video on Tuesday? :D

[@Larkinzzz]

There is no good time to ban expensive cards, and no amount of forecasting would have changed that. The rules committee has been too passive in the past, putting them in a situation of damned if you do, damned if you don't. The backlash around these bans has also proven that it's impossible for the rules committee to keep casual healthy while simultaneously catering to the cEDH format. Most bans that would vastly improve the casual experience would annihilate the cEDH meta.

[@lucascarmitchel9551]

They even had people complaining about them relying too much on rule 0. This is their way of shifting the lines to make it so you need to have fewer rule 0 talks.

[@Alkhemia8]

and CEDH will adapt and brew new deck that is the nature of a competitive format, the CEDH player who don't understand that just don't understand what it means to be competitive

[@chrisvanderheiden12]

But cedh isn't a format. It is playing edh with no limitations outside of the rules. Frankly, having practucally no bans for so long is unusual for a metagame. The majority of content creators I watch like the bans (from a balance perspective). I may be in an information silo (I don't really engage with online discourse outside of youtube), but I don't think anyone who understands what cedh is should think this is bad for the meta.

[@Welverin]

@@Alkhemia8 Yeah, the Play to Win guys seemed to be okay with the bans and looking forward to how things shake out after the bans.

[@djkrismilam]

Its 100% casual , cedh is a different animal in truth. Its confidence that is shattered. Conspiracy was really the closest this comes too i lived it and people left and never returned.

[@aaronwindham6065]

The hurricane has knocked out all of my internet, but I downloaded this video at the last vestige of humanity. ThBk you guys. It's absolutely hell out here, people are fighting over their turn at the gas pump

[@starmanda88]

I hope you’re safe dude. I live in south west Louisiana and we’ve been watching the news in horror at what’s going on there. Stay safe.

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

Hopefully you are doing alright! Stay safe.

[@aaronwindham6065]

​@@MTGGoldfishCommander this was a great distraction.

[@aaronwindham6065]

​@@starmanda88oh it's bad, Western NC is a different animal all the together. Northern sc, and we were lucky

[@retrofuturistJL]

Shut up

[@Evilkritter]

I hadn't thought about this being the first ban for the Covid Boom players. The severity of response makes more sense now

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

Literally a bunch of card game virgins that never experienced a ban before

[@jetvoidweller]

Holy shit you are right

[@jekanyika]

Golos was banned post covid

[@midwestindigo1397]

Honestly, knowing that does put a sour taste and my mouth for making such a harsh ban out of nowhere. They could have TRIED to communicate something ahead of time and just said "nah eff it".

[@josephpayton7522]

​@@midwestindigo1397honestly, if they had given a warning. The commentary would be even louder saying "DON'T DO IT." Even though the decision would have already been made. A lot of people have just accepted the announcement as final even if they don't love the decision.

[@ctomsky]

This ban is a perfect example of the Trolley Problem. Everyone misunderstands the point is not to argue about which bad choice is the worse choice, the point is to demonstrate that the only CORRECT choice is to avoid being in a Trolley Problem in the first place, aka, that these cards never should have been printed in the first place, but now that they do exist, there's no good way to deal with them, someone is getting hurt no matter what, and the options are to do nothing and let the problem continue to worsen, or to just pull the bandaid off now.

[@ArCSelkie37]

I mean they could have banned them any time in the last half a decade or so (or longer for Crypt). Lotus was something that they made comment on when it was revealed, before it was even playable... they have had all the time in the world to ban it. And if we're meant to believe that the RC is mostly independent from WotC, then they have basically no excuse.

[@ctomsky]

@ArCSelkie37 That's my point, that they absolutely should have banned them sooner, or for Lotus, vetoed it from ever being printed at all. They absolutely fucked up for allowing them in the first place, and for not banning them sooner. But that's the trolley problem, because at this point, what do you do about it? Banning them now sucks, and doing nothing also sucks and will only get worse. My hope is that this has been a moment of learning for them to take a more proactive role going forward.

[@ArCSelkie37]

@@ctomsky Ah sorry I thought you meant like the RC should have stopped it from being printed... which honestly they have limited capacity to do so. The RC exists at the goodwill/mercy of WotC. But yeah, the RC needs to choose to either actually be proactive with bans OR just entirely stay out of it. Either let Rule 0 do it's thing and hope players can weed out bad actors in their LGS or ban cards more efficiently... but definitely not this 50/50 where they wait for several years and then ban something. more personally... I wish they were consistent with their bans. If fast mana is a problem, ban fast mana... including their "iconic" sol ring. If they hate instant win combos like Coalition Victory, ban Thoracle + Consultation.

[@markmittelbach7975]

The Trolley Problem specifically is about the comparison of positive (do this) and negative (don't do this) duties, and to show an extreme example of the flaws in the argument that there are only negative duties. The point isn't really about which answer is right, but how a belief that establishes that there is only one choice that could possibly be considered right becomes absurd. It's a weird thing that happens deep in philosophy discussions that then gets taken out of context and looks very different. And while these things can have meaning outside of the original context, for the trolley problem the meaning gets extremely fuzzy outside of the original context.

[@TheEvolver311]

There is a list a mile long of cards people hate and would like to see banned for over a decade one of the biggest criticisms of the RC was that they don't ban enough and when they do it feels like they just ban a card they lost to the weekend prior. People used to joke that if you get a change to play a RC member make sure and destroy them with card X so they will ban it finally.

[@ryanjessome931]

Crim is more and more right every episode.

[@ptmountford]

And one of the others is more and more wrong every episode.

[@devinkerr5474]

I mean, individual opinions definitely apply across a spectrum, but I find Crim represents the every-player very well and represents casual play well, aside from my disagreements about ramp.

[@TerminallyNerdy]

You know at 30:36 I am with Crim. I want to collect cards, sure, but they have value to me because of how I obtained them and as part of my collection. Their value is personal to me. Like yea sure I got a fancy ass Extended Art Bowmaster and a One Ring now. But the memory of HOW I got those will always hold more value for me then the monetary value people outside put on them.

[@Welverin]

I have many individual cards worth more than my set of Fallen Empires, but there aren't many of them I would keep over it. It means too much to me to ever part with.

[@prod.fffeedback7679]

​@@Welverinsame here, I have binders of every set from revised to onslaught from my dad that I will be keeping for ever

[@Welverin]

@@prod.fffeedback7679 Sweet, a lot of cool sets in that stretch.

[@evangrescol7772]

I'm quite proud of pulling a Cavern of Souls in the mini booster i got from my Velocirampter precon, and part of it was the value and rarity. But ultimately, it's just another piece of cardboard I own.

[@devinkerr5474]

I have never met a collector who goes "Look at my 36 inch tall replica of Grimlock, it cost me $200, but I think if I hold onto it, it'll reach $500 and really earn a place in my collection." Collectors will brag about how much money they sank into a thing that has 0 value to anyone else JUST so they could hold it. They never hang onto the current value of a things

[@STS-qi1qy]

With Crim on the finance. I have empathy but you should *not* be viewing hobbies as investments. It's a hard lesson to learn but one that needs to be learned.

[@theelectricant98]

True

[@bobthor9647]

Thanks Dad

[@shrewder]

I have always treated MTG "finance" as a way for me to get out of the game and getting my money back. I've never tried to make money on it. And I have experience with this approach. I've dropped Magic twice. Each time, I essentially got back what I had spent on the game. If the game ever became a guaranteed negative, my evaluation of spending money on the game would shift dramatically.

[@josephpayton7522]

52:00 I started commander in Kaldheim with Koma. I put winter orb and static orb in my deck because it synergized with my commander without knowing about the secret sorta ban list. It took a while for me to realize you actually can't play those cards at a casual table. I just kept thinking people got upset because I was winning. Banning those cards would be INFINITELY simpler to new players.

[@Lucarioguild7]

I've seen a lot worse decks use stax pieces lol, at least your commander had inevitability

[@Scarletkillerxz]

I started around the same time and went through the same thing, didn't realize how much people don't like those cards but I thought they were a necessary evil. Its kinda dumb you have to go based on vibes

[@josephpayton7522]

@@Scarletkillerxz absolutely. I just thought I needed them or else someone else would win. I didn't know that's actually the reason they're shadow banned. Everyone is supposed to have fun, and we'll see who wins.

[@nicolivoldkif9096]

Yep, just ban cards that are bad for the format. MTG, at it's core is a 1v1 game. Lots of things just don't work in a four player game from a game design perspective that are just fine in two players.

[@ihateyou5463]

If no one said "hey i dont like the orbs, please dont play them" then theres an issue in your commander group. If you dont like a card because you percieve it as unfun then either say something or have more interaction. I promise winter orb isnt that bad compared to a lot of other things This comes from a man who fought in the trenches against hall of gemstones and iona shield of emeria

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

Finally, the voices of reason! Bannings are a necessary and normal part of any card game

[@bobthor9647]

What data should be used to make or not make bans ? The RC doesn’t use data and thinks their own personal philosophy is best

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

@@bobthor9647 normally the data you would use for a banlist would be based off tournament results, but commander is a casual format so that doesn't really work in this case. You could use the salt index as a point of reference, which they probably do already. Or you could pull opinions from a large group of figures in the community, which they already do with the CAG

[@alexmanzanares200]

​​@@prestonbeaulieu4379 Except the CAG wasn't at all involved in the bannings and were just as caught off guard, which indirectly led to more hate to the CAG. It got so bad that two of the 12 CAG members has resigned

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

@@alexmanzanares200 They were consulted. The RC asked the CAG "is fast mana a problem in EDH?" And most of them responded "yes, fast mana is a problem." Of course they didn't have a final say on what cards got banned, that's literally not their job.

[@alexmanzanares200]

@prestonbeaulieu4379 They were generally polled over the years about fast mana in general, that itself is incredibly vague and leaves out any sort of nuance of a conversation of what "problem" means and if those same members felt a sudden ban was the solution

[@bamjo9]

Man... This podcast was WAY more thoughtful, correct, and had better information than the commander zone one. Insane. Well done!

[@EDZ1LLA]

That sounds about right lol

[@LunarWingCloud]

A bit. CZ basically said all the same things these guys did. The difference is they went deeper into the out of game aspects and spoke more in general broad terms, which isn't inherently a bad thing. These guys get a bit more specific but it's also anecdotal, so not necessarily ironclad proof of their points, but just cases to think about. Neither is really that much better than the other. They both did good and just had different approaches to saying the same thing

[@spudster8887]

@bamjo9 the commandzone one was correct tho. Josh especially was 100% correct. The bans aren't good

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

@@spudster8887 I disagree!

[@bamjo9]

@@spudster8887??

[@webbc99]

Regarding Rule-Zero-ing these cards back into games: Here's the crux of it, these cards are actually the cause of a lot of power level mismatches and pubstomping, and now these sorts of players actually have to say "Hey, I want to run these busted cards against you guys and stomp you" before the game instead of finding out on turn 2 when they start going off. The people who play these cards at a casual level are not being genuine about their intentions. If you have a regular playgroup that all enjoys these cards, then it should be super easy for you guys to just rule zero them back in. But these bans protect players who are not cool with that, the vast majority of commander players who play with randoms at their LGS.

[@mark1A100]

yeah like i see your garbage 7 drop and you want crypt and lotus fine

[@rsqualo]

Rule 0 them in would work only if you have a pod with your friends but most people build decks to test them out against more pods and you cannot rule 0 them back in for all people. Some people will just call it out and you have to take them out of your deck? That won’t work.

[@abitofsupport601]

​@@rsqualoi feel bad for the people who want to play with these cards, but a basic level these cards hurt more players than they do help them.

[@cyriltournier]

There are plenty of casual decks with high powered cards.

[@HolyReaver97]

The only people making this argument are people who are too poor to afford the best cards. Blame wotc for not printing more, not people who work hard to fund their hobbies.

[@aramfingal]

Seth is 100% right. People just aren't used to this in commander yet. Just need to give it time. After the bannings there might be some other random card in your bulk pile that goes UP in value. It usually evens out on a whole as long as the game stays strong.

[@shawnbolton8987]

Mana Vault

[@oooldkel]

Seth literally had the worst take out of everybody he was very much I don't care about you how you feel how the community is responding I want this so it's good.

[@Chaunwilkerson]

@@oooldkel The community is overreacting. The ban list only affects pickup games, where those cards do the most damage.

[@jacobstarbrow6288]

@@oooldkel The community is split, half love this, half hate this.

[@bradcallahan3546]

Nice way to downplay the real issue here

[@mrbelbobaggins8959]

I’m curious about the new player argument Tomer made. Do new players actually check the ban list? When I started building commander decks whatever deck building website I used either wouldn’t let me add the cards or told me they weren’t legal in the format. I’ve still never sought out and read the ban list and I’ve been playing for close to 7 years. I rely on Moxfield or EDHrec to tell me if the card is banned.

[@wedgearyxsaber]

Just my two cents but I used to play with a friend in 2018-2020 and he had found a fastbond for 5 bucks and bought it and put it in He doesn't use deck building websites or catch up on the "in the know" of edh, and at the time, I was unfamiliar with the ban list so I wasn't aware it was a banned card till later I think for new players it's all dependent on how solidified they are in magic culture

[@GreatWhiteElf]

Yeah, I've accidentally played a banned card a couple times now. I think people blow it out of proportion. Because if we're talking about new players, they're probably not skilled/knowledgeable enough to use those cards in a way that would cause issues.

[@hannespaulsen]

I never checked it either. I joined my friends playing commander after some years of not playing, since i stopped playing legacy and would have prefered to stick to normal highlander. When i started playing again i first played my existing highlander deck with a commander in the right colours and a bit later spend a good amount of money to rework it into a proper deck under a new commander. Imagine my joy when my friends told me a year or so later that my commander Golos was banned after being legal for years and that they don´t want to play against a banned card. 😑 Which is why i checked the announcements regularly and did not buy a dockside or Nandu because they were on watched. I got f***ed anyway! So instead of spending a lot of money an a new shiny deck with a lot of bling, my next deck will be 100% proxy.

[@grantdixon36]

I started MTG and commander this year and I think this argument is ridiculous. Obviously you need to read the rules to learn the format anyways. The banned cards are the ones I don’t need to know because the deckbuilder tells me them, unlike the 10s of thousands of legal cards I could actually play.

[@unfrogettable9495]

i'm new from bloomburrow. I saw the news of the banlist and then started following it, to me these seemed fine to ban because coming from yugioh money should not stop a card from being banned; it's a toxic idea.

[@TheTamally]

Richard's reasoning for WotC consuming the RC is what has happened in the video game industry as a whole. Big AAA companies hired the best of the best, and dumped hundreds of millions into games, only for them to fall flat. Because at the end of the day those people who know what's best and want to help the game aren't the ones making the decisions. It's why indie games are so successful yet games like Concord fail again and again. The RC might not be the best, but at the end of the day every decision they make is with the intention of helping the game. If they were controlled by WotC, at the end of the day no matter what they thought was best they would be forced to do what WotC thinks will make the most money instead.

[@roelofftan8814]

sorry third remark richard: why even rule zero richard: rule zero has worked till now, lets keep goign with it i swear he is the actual joker

[@sosukelele]

i swear he's going to make *_me_* into the jonkler with these takes

[@stevenyukabacera160]

Richard loves being a contrarian. This is 90% of the reasoning behind his insane takes.

[@henryackerson7138]

He always brings the contrasting viewpoint so that the podcast isn't an echo chamber of everyone agreeing with each other. He doesn't necessarily agree with every point he makes

[@sreyn237]

@@henryackerson7138 I think you give him too much credit

[@henryackerson7138]

@@sreyn237 do you believe he doesn't know he's giving contrasting opinions?

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

Jewelled lotus came out in the same set as Hullbreacher btw. They did not give a damn about making healthy cards for commander.

[@laytonjr6601]

Hullbreacher is only egregious in combination with wheels, because they become "3 mana, draw 7, make 21 treasures, all opponents discard their hands"

[@spudster8887]

But jewelled lotus was perfectly fine?

[@bradcallahan3546]

Neither are an issue if you don’t suck at deck building.

[@Zarbon000]

They still don’t 😂

[@casteanpreswyn7528]

​@spudster8887 you're right, a turn 1 Sheoldred The Apocalypse *and* a turn 1 Teferi's Puzzle Box being possible on the same turn 1 is totally acceptable.

[@Xyariax]

They wanted us to have longer games... so i listened and switched my dockside and mana crypt for stranglehold and blood moon, and they were right... the game got a lot longer ;)

[@bobthor9647]

Cheers 😂

[@JustAnotherPest]

My favorite aspects of this whole debacle are the takes that are basically just "cards above a certain price point should be immune to bans" and "cards that haven't been banned for a certain amount of time should be immune to bans" but with a lot of fancy window dressing.

[@matcauthon9644]

I think you make a good point that is it hilarious for us to think that there is some kinda line of demarcation that these cards need to pass, to be "safe" but I do think that crypt being a part of MtG since the beginning should have ment something, and that it along with Sol Ring are sacrosanct. That being said the argument for Jlo would also be valid that it's a Commander made card. Regardless I do agree with you.

[@Worgalphihndor]

I'm really loving the hour and a half podcast. I listen to it on my way to work and while I get set up at work and more often than not customers interrupting me so it gives me something to listen to between

[@jaysonking4055]

I think it will blow over but it does have a chance to really shift community perspective on buying expensive cards

[@bobthor9647]

It does . But I noticed people still love wasting money on Collector packs of Duskmourn- so who knows

[@MrMartinSchou]

It is far easier to rule zero IN something than it is to rule zero something OUT. If there are only 4 people available for a game of Commander, "can I play with Dockside?" is a lot easier to get permission for than "can we ban all the expensive mana rocks?" The former allows someone to play with their deck, the latter is telling people to go rebuild the decks they brought.

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

Preach brother preach

[@dapperghastmeowregard]

One of my favorite comments was somebody trying to gotcha by being like "If I asked to rule 0 in mana crypt I'd be laughed out of the pod," to which somebody responded "So you understand why it's banned then."

[@CoL_Drake]

very good bans

[@exriel]

I just don't see how this is fundamentally different from finding out what happened to my Tarmogoyfs when I came back after a break. I have never agreed with Crim more on any subject.

[@metatron8578]

There is a big difference. You're still allowed to play Tarmogoyf in Modern like in the past, it just costs less.

[@ArCSelkie37]

@@metatron8578 Yeah people are really fixating on value, as if the only problem is the loss of value... rather than the loss of ability to play cards you like.

[@cyriltournier]

​@@metatron8578you're allowed to but you won't because the format has moved past it

[@exriel]

@@metatron8578 I don't play Modern, so that advice is as useful to me, as me telling you to go play Legacy/Vintage.

[@midnightmonty]

​@exriel then your reasoning is just fundamentally flawed. There is a difference between a card being banned and a card no longer being competitive in the format that kept it valuable.

[@PoopinaBucket]

For saying that it’s not appealing to new players argument: my 2 friends who got introduced into the game saw land destruction cards for seismic spike and wave of vitriol. I told them they are looked down upon and they didn’t add them. But you can’t say that a group of people aren’t going to play them because they’re not appealing. They did to them

[@bobthor9647]

I do not understand why Wotc reprinted Ravages of War . ravages and Armageddon should be banned honestly- but I’m the only one evil enough at my lgs to put them in a high power Deck I made . I’ve only played it a few times with mixed results

[@Optimator7]

54:40 Exactly!! Much better to have a large banlist to smooth out pick-up games and just add crazy cards after

[@sonchezz]

I think the RC made the right choice with all of these... about 5 years too late. Better late than never I suppose.

[@WhammeWhamme]

Mana Crypt should have been chilling with the Moxes from day one. The other three? A few years to see the metagame impact is not unreasonable.

[@Alikaoz]

​@@WhammeWhammeYeah. The Crypt ban hurt the most. Now the old cards I liked to play aren't worth getting anymore. If you don't play vintage, a good chunk of cards are just lost as game pieces.

[@KingZarathus]

Thank you for having a reasoned discussion about things. Not only should these cards have been banned but about all the other surrounding topics as well.

[@erfunk]

The RC probably didn't want to rock the boat while Sheldon's health was deteriorating or too soon after his passing. Here we are a year later, and internally pressure built up to the point they wanted to make up for lost time, somewhat.

[@NateFinch]

People say a 300 card banlist is bad, but this isn't 2003 anymore. We have scryfall and Moxfield and Archidekt.... I literally would not even notice a 300 card banlist because I just always build on Moxfield, so I never see those cards. I know a lot of people don't use a website at all..... But those people are playing kitchen table magic and probably don't care about banlists anyway. A friend of mine was playing prophet of Kruphix for years before any of us realized it was banned. And so... Once we noticed, he swapped it out. No big deal.

[@bradcallahan3546]

Imagine being so stupid that you let a group of nobody’s tell you what you can use 🤡

[@soron703]

Yeah even deck building apps allow you to filter by format legality so that you wouldn't even see banned cards.

[@huddleaw]

Should these cards be banned based on power? Yes. Am I surprised to see the commander community reacted this way? No. The EDH community has always been toxic. We're talking about the people who get salty when you Counter their spells, kill their threat, or attack them. We can't stop evolving the format because of these people. Also, you can just Rule 0 it back into your games if it's that big of a deal to you. If people consistently say no to your Rule 0, reflect on that. Maybe there's a good reason these cards got banned.

[@AbsaluteXero]

This is by far the most level headed and reasonable discussion i have heard on this subject. I thank you guys so much for releasing something that is not just kneejerk, the sky is falling, negativity. Great episode

[@icholi88]

Crim is right, he is desensitized to the loss because he has been in the hobby long enough to know better. Its only the newer players and investor people who don't understand you have to approach it as a game, not a portfolio. Take it on the chin and move on.

[@ArCSelkie37]

I mean for some people, even as a game, taking $100-$200 “on the chin” isn’t that easy. It isn’t all investors who are annoyed about it.

[@6ixpool520]

@@ArCSelkie37 Happens in any hobby really, just in a different way. You crash your bike and need to pay for repairs, your GPU dies just as it goes out of warranty, the cardigan you were knitting gets chewed on by the dog. Shit happens. At least this happened so that the game can get better and not for no reason at all.

[@deswide]

​@@ArCSelkie37If taking a 100-200 blow isn't easy for you then maybe you shouldn't be spending that money on a piece of cardboard in the first place.

[@ArCSelkie37]

@@deswide it doesn’t have to be a blow, like i can’t eat this month… but for anyone it would absolutely suck ass to save up for months to then get a card taken away. Unless you’re suggesting no one should save up for stuff they want? It sucks for anyone, and it’s just kinda gross and lacking in empathy to just basically say it’s as simple as taking it on the chin.

[@ArCSelkie37]

@@6ixpool520 i mean the difference with your examples is that they happen because of my negligence or at least not by the direct action of someone else. Like no one is coming in and forcefully bricking my PC, and if i crash my bike it’s because I likely went to fast and lost control. I’d be pretty pissed at someone if they decided to slash my bikes tires and i lost $100 to replace them… Also, i’d still be pretty annoyed if my GPU died for no reason.

[@MrABK108]

As owner of an etched Jeweled Lotus and a yellow Ixalan Crypt... and dockside of course... They should have been banned a long time ago or never made in the first place. I didn't play them anyway. The real problem is WotC not reprinting expensive cards driving the price to reasonable amounts. If they had reprinted JL 5 or 6 times it would have been a 30$ card. And the uproar would have been minimal. Let's remember that MtG is primarily a GAME so it can't stay under the heel of the collecting side. Ps. Personally I separate collecting and playing. I collect cards and secret lairs, but for my decks I just proxy them.

[@bobthor9647]

Yes - the RC should have banned them a long time ago . Why didn’t they ban them in 2023 ?

[@WushuTaz]

@@bobthor9647 Because wizards wouldn't let them. It's not the RC that gets the final say. It's Wizards.

[@toebeeNZ]

EDH was never a new player format, it sucks that it became the new player format and results in too many inexperienced players at pods that can't articulate what game they want to play, to make EDH new player friendly is extremely difficult, I've only ever really played with very knowledgeable, experienced, honest people and have never had any issue with communication and never needed a ban list. I don't know how you solve EDH for new players, perhaps printing something like the upcoming foundations, huge card pool and only legalize cards within that set and call it some EDH beginners league or something idk. The ban list was never supposed to exist, because experienced players can regulate their own pods that's why the format allows for everything, is playing biorhythm on turn 14 and having the elf player swing in and finish the game fun? Sure! Is someone cheating out biorhythm as early as possible and ending the game not fun? Sure! it doesn't take a genius to figure this stuff out it just takes experienced mtg players that aren't trying to abuse cards all the time. The real problem here is that EDH is not a beginner format and can never be a good beginner format without massive change, hell it isn't even balanced that the first player draws a card despite in cEDH showing a significant advantage to the first player.

[@Dstinct]

100%. The format is supposed to be played at home with your friends. It doesn't work correctly with strangers.

[@OScarTheWhat]

Why is banning a money card just now a big deal? Does everyone forget what card game they play? Banning big money cards it not new to Magic at all, I truly don't understand why this even a talking point. Financial issues should NEVER be considered when making bans. Otherwise the first party(WOTC/RC) will always be suppressed by the secondary market and will hinder balance in the long run Think about how many big money rares have been banned from every format, think about how those formats would look if WOTC worried about a card crashing in value. Thats a really bad way of thinking, bans should only consider balance. magic is not an investment, its a card game. Apparently this doctor guy is incapable of reading, I'm very clearly talking about the act of banning in general and not specially these bans lmao

[@jekanyika]

I totally agree

[@doctordistracto8390]

You're not wrong but the difference always was that it was wotc banning things because they objectively broke formats. This is 4 random dudes banning something because it doesn't break the format at all but 7% of high power games felt less fun to them.

[@TC-sl8ol]

​@@doctordistracto8390actually it's because they were required to compete at higher levels, and swung the game against anyone not running them. No cards should be compulsory.

[@doctordistracto8390]

@@TC-sl8ol There's always best available resource gainers that must be used to compete at the highest level, true for every single game that uses resources and always will be. Total non-argument.

[@ThePancaked1]

@@doctordistracto8390 So the only solution is printing something better according to you? This means people will have to look for the "new best pieces" which is totally expected. You somehow said a lot of words without saying anything at all

[@MOSTLYxTOAST]

As a cedh player, the original ban announcement was rough, and the financial loss sucks, but outside of a very small vocal minority, we are not calling for a split in the format. The meta will shift and new solutions will be found, it’s an exciting time for the community and many of us are welcoming the opportunity. That being said please don’t call for any more bans. The format is fine.

[@lVideoWatcherl]

Sol ring next

[@bencheevers6693]

Absolutely right, the anger should be at wizards for printing these as chase cards in sets right before they knew they were getting banned, when the format gets healthier which this objectively does, then I'm all for it. Also some people arguing that cedh needs these cards because that's where they were played are both wrong on where they were played and wrong their analysis, when a card should go in every deck it's not good for the format, it's just too much variance and doesn't provide anything beneficial.

[@ArCSelkie37]

Yeah the vocal minority are presumably the few players not playing blue.

[@jacobstarbrow6288]

Eh, let's see what wizards decides to print in the future.

[@MOSTLYxTOAST]

@@jacobstarbrow6288 fair lol we can’t trust wizards for shit these days

[@matanamir4359]

Got to say you guys, I have watched it again and you really get my subscription!!! Best Commander podcast I've heard in a while 🔥💪🏼

[@lukaspecson6095]

my entire playgroup declines to play fast mana as well, we all love the bans

[@6ixpool520]

Yep, my group stopped playing these cards soon after most of us tried running them. It just doesn't lead to compelling gameplay patterns. People will forget about the outrage by next year and the game will be better for it.

[@JamesCooley-q8b]

@@6ixpool520 Well said

[@bubb922]

Also the most recent MagicCon in a Box that Wizard's is selling has both Commander Masters and Ixalan Collector Boosters that went on sale right before the ban. Knowing that the 2 chase cards were about to be banned from those sets, it looks a lot like they were trying to offload them as they were about to decrease in value significantly. Anyone who ordered them before the ban and can't get a refund/already opened them is also getting hosed.

[@BsRascaL]

Tomer’s, “We’ll be sad!” talking about the share holders had me rolling 😂

[@ctomsky]

It is 1000% easier to Rule 0 in a banned card then to try and Rule 0 out a legal card.

[@GoDzJtFr]

Can confirm. My best friend used to rule zero in Worldfire all the time when it was banned because he loved the card so much and we we all cool with it because we were ready for that experience. Meanwhile it took me a year to convince my playgroup that Dockside was an issue because they had the mentality that "if it's really a problematic card it'd be banned."

[@hannespaulsen]

@@GoDzJtFr I have the total fliped experience. After Golos was banned my friends never let me play it again. I had spend around 600€ to upgrade that deck less then a year before.

[@GoDzJtFr]

@@hannespaulsen i don't blame your friends, Golos is an absolutely miserable commander to play against regardless of how it's built. If they're not agreeing to let you rule 0 it that's probably why

[@hannespaulsen]

@@GoDzJtFr Really? If that feeling would be a valid reason to ban a commander many of the decks one of the players would play over the years would have to be banned too! Or do you really think [[The Ur-Dragon]], [[Jodah, the Unifier]], [[Sauron, the Dark Lord]], [[Korvold, Fae-Cursed King]], [[Henzie "Toolbox" Torre]], [[Omnath, Locus of Creation]], [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]], [[Lord of the Nazgûl]] or [[Chulane, Teller of Tales]] and more are worse then Golos? It was just a convienient cop out for them to not run enough or the right removal and effects like [[Kenrith's Transformation]], [[ Oubliette]], [[Pithing Needle]], [[Control Magic ]] or counter. The problem with my usual round is that one player is really good in building these value pile commanders and to make them very resiliant. He does not run that much removal and instead always tries to out value the table. I am not as good in building resilient value engine and do not like that playstyle very much, so i am droping bombs and staples to fight his value engines down and win before he can not be stopped anymore. The other two players on the table were always bad at thread assessment and would only calculate board presence. They did not really come to grasp with the fact that that other player would next to always win if we do not beat him down enough. It was my only deck at that moment in time, i had taken my old 5 colour big spell highlander deck and started to use it for commander. I had tried to use Jodah, Archmage Eternal, but because of their bad threat assesment my deck was not resilliant enough deal with him getting killed very fast. Golos ramped me while dying which led to me at least beeing in every game since i had the mana to cast my spells reliably. Since they never put cards into their decks who could handle him and the deck beeing very fast occasionally the two weaker players were complaining a lot and used the banning as a convenient cop out to never let me play that deck again.

[@hannespaulsen]

@@GoDzJtFr I responded to you two days ago but some of my comments seem to get deleted: "Really? If that feeling would be a valid reason to ban a commander many of the decks one of the players would play over the years would have to be banned too! Or do you really think [[The Ur-Dragon]], [[Jodah, the Unifier]], [[Sauron, the Dark Lord]], [[Korvold, Fae-Cursed King]], [[Henzie "Toolbox" Torre]], [[Omnath, Locus of Creation]], [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]], [[Lord of the Nazgûl]] or [[Chulane, Teller of Tales]] and more are worse then Golos? It was just a convienient cop out for them to not run enough or the right removal and effects like [[Kenrith's Transformation]], [[ Oubliette]], [[Pithing Needle]], [[Control Magic ]] or counter. The problem with my usual round is that one player is really good in building these value pile commanders and to make them very resiliant. He does not run that much removal and instead always tries to out value the table. I am not as good in building resilient value engine and do not like that playstyle very much, so i am droping bombs and staples to fight his value engines down and win before he can not be stopped anymore. The other two players on the table were always bad at thread assessment and would only calculate board presence. They did not really come to grasp with the fact that that other player would next to always win if we do not beat him down enough. It was my only deck at that moment in time, i had taken my old 5 colour big spell highlander deck and started to use it for commander. I had tried to use Jodah, Archmage Eternal, but because of their bad threat assesment my deck was not resilliant enough deal with him getting killed very fast. Golos ramped me while dying which led to me at least beeing in every game since i had the mana to cast my spells reliably. Since they never put cards into their decks who could handle him and the deck beeing very fast occasionally the two weaker players were complaining a lot and used the banning as a convenient cop out to never let me play that deck again." I don´t think this post violates anykind of rule.

[@AntonioHachi]

If WoTC got control of the banlist we wouldnt see less Jewled Lotuses and Docksides... we'd see more Hullbreachers. You need a secondary group to be able to stand up and offer checks and balances. It's the same reason we have 3 branches of government. Giving one group all the power is not a good thing.

[@dariocampanella7992]

There is one is the commander advisory group. But they decided not to get them involved.

[@ArCSelkie37]

I don't buy this... What was the check and balance that allowed Jeweled lotus, Dockside and Crypt be unbanned for at least 5+ years? Only waiting until reprints to ban them. It hasn't stopped gross cards being designed for commander, despite the fact they supposedly get consulted. If there are checks and balances for the RC, they don't do a lot with it other than taking sponsorships for being the face of the format.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

On the finance side the rc is taking the anger over how wotc has used these as chase cards for premium sets so the prices never become affordable seemingly intentionally

[@ArCSelkie37]

Because despite their explanations/excuse/reasons… all 3 of the cards (no one cares about nadu) have been problems since they were printed years ago. Yet they only got banned relatively soon after expensive reprints. If the RC is independent from WotC (like it supposedly is), they had no reason to wait that long other than incompetence or because WotC told them about reprints. (I personally think incompetence). Lotus, if they thought it was a problem when announced, should have been banned soon after. Crypt should have gone along side the mox’s etc.

[@bethpitblado1588]

Finally, some reasoned discourse without ranting, crying, and someone wanting to rage quit the game. Thank you.

[@LoonerFlight]

Thanks for addressing how awkward Rule Zero interactions can be!

[@BucksBaller]

Richard not understanding checks and balances is so funny to listen to

[@alexmanzanares200]

Except Tomer is the one who doesn't understand it. The RC is not a check to WoTC, if the RC ever does threaten and ban new chase cards before Wizards can release it in packs or finish making money off it, Wizards will shut down the RC. Because the RC is just a third party group, a group that Wizards has allowed to exist. Important thing to note, they allow the RC to exist, if the RC steps on Wizards money toes too much they will no longer allow it to exist. You cannot be a check and balance if one of the aspects of that system can just decide the other no longer exist if it goes too far. There's a reason Sol Ring wasn't banned and why the RC waited until AFTER Commander Masters and Ixalan despite this conversation of bannings existing well before those sets.

[@EugeneHKrabsss]

I'm listening to this right as they announced the handing over of Commander to WOTC... crazy that MTGGoldfish discussed it and now we're here

[@devinkerr5474]

Your comment just made we search up the article. I can't imagine anyone on the RC wants to deal with that kind of flak while they are trying to promote the health of a card game.

[@devinkerr5474]

I read this announcement and see "We tried to keep this game you love fun, but you took it too far"

[@thesamuraiman]

1:15:29 It's interesting that Richard wants Wizard employees that "know game design" to work 40hrs /wk to run Commander, but then people complain that employees at Wizards that work 40hrs/wk that run Modern and Standard have made the formats unfun in the recent years.

[@ericmartin5344]

The fault is on the RC. 1. The RC never made tier list, so the ban list affects all players. They should have made a definitive power scale. 2. The RC is "the community". I expect wizards to dick me over, which is why I stopped playing standard. I don't expect the community to dick me over after these cards have been around for awhile... These banning are a result of the disconnect of the RC and the community.

[@EmTekTube]

100% this was a WoTC problem. I have a feeling the RC does not have the power to make bans that regular players think they do and probably wanted to makes these bans months if not years ago. But because Wizards had these cards already lined up in sets like LCI and Fallout they pushed back on allowing them to make the bans. I mean Olivia was the face of the Magic 30 announcement video for Magic's official youtube channel when it got released, I'm not saying she personally thought magic 30 was a good thing or that she's a bad person, but clearly members of the Rules Committee are working for Wizards in some capacity with WoTC's best interest and not the players given both the timing and how they decided to announce these bans.

[@bobthor9647]

A scandal that appears exactly to be scandalous - people will think it’s a scam. They may change their minds but not until they see hard proof

[@TheEvolver311]

39:26 Saffron Olive 100% correct

[@robertruybal7172]

They've talked about banning the mana rocks for years but they waited till after the sets they were chase rares to pull the trigger. Sounds convenient. In my opinion the issue isn't the ban, it's how the bans were handled. Does the RC discuss these things with WOTC? Would they dare do something like this a month before a set releasing these cards came out? Would they dare ban Jeweled Lotus prior to Commander Masters? Or ban Mana Crypt before the release of Lost Caverns?

[@traviscouch4257]

3 people on the RC are employed by WotC.

[@bencheevers6693]

Wizards sees their catalogue as reprint equity, both through secret lairs and reprinting in sets, they knew about this before they printed jewelled lotus and mana crypt, they used the cards to sold their sets to use their reprint equity, then they sold collector boosters with MB2 from commander masters and ixalan where those two chase cards are, then the bans showed up. It's absolutely despicable and that's what people should be mad at. The bans are really good for the health of the format.

[@Caliban_80]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Wizards is encouraging a more aggressive RC. This is a genius way for them to get around the issue of the RL. The RC can ban duals, cradle, diamond etc. and Wizards can fill that vacuum with new flashy crap in collector boosters.

[@jaronfranklin1]

I think it’s healthy for Commander to fall in line with most of Magic Formats where you should be extremely cautious of buying a $100 card unless you think you will get $100 worth of value from playing it. Also it’s a singleton format take advantage of it and don’t buy a Playset of Crypts when you only need 1

[@bluenewwave13]

Re: the discussion at 1:10:10; WOTC has officially taken over management of the Commander format. Hold onto your butts, folks.

[@dolando5031]

As someone who has played a couple of games online via Tabletop Sim or Cockatrice, the rule 0 shit is genuinely what prevents me from buying a paper deck and playing. From watching your channel and talking to some people, I feel like I overall have a pretty good sense of what is and isnt "cool" but its such an annoying obstacle to overcome trying to appease everyone. I've been in games online with randoms where a card gets played and you can feel the life of the table slowly drain, and it feels terrible to be a part of. I remember when I was first playing and didn't know better how worried I became about accidentally offending someone due to a card everyone hates that probably should just be banned. Richard's example of baseball, as someone who enjoys baseball, is pretty spot on. Its such an annoying mental game to participate in I just want it all to be written down somewhere so I can just know what to do. I can't even imagine what its like for someone less confident or someone who struggles with social cues.

[@NicolasandDad]

I actually figured out the perfect solution!! Super long story short, you remove bans… make sol ring the middle… games are either without sol ring, or with sol ring and all the cards that are just as powerful… RC now helps mediate if cards are left or right of sol ring…

[@olafwulfgarson1224]

How about Giant Lotus: 0 cmc, T: Sacrifice Giant Lotus: Add three mana of any one color. Spend this mana only to cast a commander with mana value 7 or more.

[@raccoonhatcity7627]

Print it, sell it, cya in 3 years.

[@sreyn237]

Refreshing takes on the finance side of things. Thanks boys.

[@MiqoteMatsiko]

I firmly believe that wotc will control commander if the committee bans things before release or before wotc is done selling the product. There's this known understanding between the two for the last 5ish or more years where you can see wotc's hand at work. And with the recent resignations from the committee, i don't know the process to replace them. I don't have confidence in that it won't favor the wants of wotc. I know there are house rules where we can just ban those at our table but if i go to a place or an event where they don't have the same rules or follow the established bannings (which i assume was the point of a ban list that most people could agree on) what do we all do. I don't know long term. I only owned a mana crypt that I've had since eternal masters and it is super played now. I'm satisfied with its lifespan. Probably now I'll only do mpcfill proxies now since my whole group and every shop in the metro area accept them in tournament play. Feels weird but I'll probably pare down my collection due to everything. Edit: I may just be some dummy who doesn't know anything.

[@ajallen212]

The NFT comparison is so fuckin accurate....no cards should cost more than 20 dollars at MOST. Nothing, no matter how old or rare. Also, the newest player at my table is currently brewing a winter orb stasis deck.....YES NEW PLAYERS PLAY THESE CARDS TOMER.

[@rich_raven]

As someone who owns a copy of each card including borderless foil version for cedh deck these cards needed to be banned for casual

[@bobthor9647]

What is “casual” ?

[@getgladnotmad4680]

We just played our first Friday night magic since the bans yesterday. My play group is a casual group that has some decks that are power level 8 and lower. The only noticeable difference not having crypt and lotus anymore in the group was that the people who run 4 cost commanders were not getting them out turn 1 or 2 or even 3 consistently. Which was wizards whole goal.

[@jamescalvert4471]

1:16:00 I have never trusted that WotC prints cards only for the fun of the game. Nothing changed this week. When profit vs fun comes up, those in charge choose profit. "Long term" health loses to "we increased profits this year."

[@blabik]

My only window to cedh is Play to Win channel. And their stace towards the bans was:"Great! Restriction breeds innovation. My Etali deck is toast, but i'm excited to brew again." I agree.

[@TMidander]

"You're gonna see this Thursday" oh no is the weekend already over?

[@martinheraud1744]

If we talk about consistency for bans aimed at casual, I think that the other fast mana (except sol ring) have a significant drawback for casual plays. Moxen cost an extra card and that is a real cost for casual decks, mana vault doesn't untap, etc.... Crypt is so free

[@nandopaiva4848]

Is Richard this naive? He really thinks Hasbro wouldn't suck all the community dry just for a bigger Q4 results?

[@devinkerr5474]

While I'm sure the company is soul less enough to do it , It also just doesn't make sense from a business stand point to bleed your target market for one big Quarter. Corporations have a legal responsibility to their shareholders to make them as much money as possible, so It makes a nice quarter, but then in the next shareholders meeting, it becomes the new target. You can drain your community once, maybe twice, but it would become unsustainable in the long term.

[@Shad932]

The one thing I don’t get in that discussion is that Seth brought up Nadu like it was a good point. WOTC banned Nadu before the RC did. If we agree it was a problem WOTC went against their own bottom line by banning a card from the most recent set faster then the independent RC did, yea they made the mistake of printing it but they also corrected it.

[@solkvist8668]

⁠@@Shad932the bigger issue is that it even got designed. It pointed out they explicitly design commander cards for sets that shouldn’t be attached to commander, and because of that they ended up just not testing the card at all. They banned it, but it’s just another card on the pile. It sits alongside cards like jeweled lotus, dockside, arcane signet, najeela, eminence as a mechanic, yuriko, smothering tithe, trouble in pairs and dozens of other cards made with commander in mind, many of which actively worsened the format/sped it up significantly. If you compare a list from 2013 to today it’s just an entirely different game, and it’s not just the power creep that is causing that. More and more of the cards were designed with commander in mind, since it’s the profitable choice. While few have been as egregious as nadu, a lot of this has been building over the past 10 years. It’s going to continue to be worse as well, as it’s been working. They make more money, they make the format worse, and in theory the RC was there to stop that. Unfortunately that is no longer the case. The last piece of the puzzle has fallen into place for wizards, and they now have full control over the format. Maybe I’m wrong, but I have no faith in wizards to behave when it comes to this. Commander has been their money maker, and they will print chase cards to absurdity.

[@nandopaiva4848]

​@@devinkerr5474 You're just missing how different people feel and how each one has a different level of tolerance. Taking 100k from 10 players is the SAME as taking 10k from 100 players for companies. If there are people rich enough to support it doesn't really matter if the number count decreased. You can see this in a LOT of business. For League of Legends, latest Ahri skin was almost $500. And for them it's worth to sell 10 units at this price than selling 100 at $50. This also happens a lot on mobile gaming. I'm pretty sure a LOT of players might quit if it comes to this, but I'm sure they will be plenty who will continue to support it. Hell, people paid almost $2000 for a Snapcaster Mage Miku just because it seemed rare. And that's what scares me the most, that I'll be shunned away from the game because I don't have the financial level to play it. At least we can all proxy, right? Right?

[@64lundyco]

Everyone seems to be missing the fact that if you break out cEDH into its own format with a unique ban list, there will still be people who play "casual" commander as powerfully as possible and then you just have two fractured competitive commander communities which is not good for anyone

[@mrbelbobaggins8959]

Wasn’t expecting this today. Let’s go!

[@leveloct882]

Seth: “is there proof? Wow, really.” Seth one minute later: “I haven’t seen anything.”

[@VRanger100]

Impressed how fast this podcast came out

[@DrukenReaps]

As for the "no warning" these bans come from the RC, not WotC and your tournament can easily say 'alright, those bans are in effect after this tournament.'

[@jekanyika]

I want to see these horse fights Seth keeps talking about.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

30:52 not me and Richard saying yes at the same time 😂

[@kstrohmayer88]

People got way too comfortable thinking of magic as an investment. If wizards had decided to print these cards into oblivion i dont think people would be complaining about "losing value"

[@MustangMike52]

It's them being able to play the cards they spent money on that makes them upset. You're right, if they reprinted the hell out of mana crypt I'd be stoked because my friends could get some and I could use mine in our group but instead some group of content creators wants to turn the format into their Cringe Zone meta that are 2 hour slogs because people are scared to end the game and be "mean"

[@kstrohmayer88]

@MustangMike52 if just wanting to play them was the thing that made them upset then odds are you don't care about these bans. If you have a group willing to play these cards then just keep playing them.

[@sagelwi09]

Let's check in on Tomer's called shot. It appears wizards is now taking control over the format.

[@sagelwi09]

Saw the announcement on Twitter as I was listening to the end of this episode.

[@JadeHex]

If you're mad at the RC for losing your expensive cards, look at the reason why your cards are hundreds of dollars first. Casual reminder Dockside got upshifted from Rare to Mythic, was not put in Commander Legends, and put the more expensive Double masters.

[@discoviolenza1984]

The bans only made me money all of my mana Vaults tripled in price. I still think they are inconsistent out of the blue, and bad it mainly hurt the kid that was excited to open a mana crypt in his Ixalan pack. I have seen at least six people sell out of the game at my LGS in the last couple days.

[@Optimator7]

Good points!

[@zDwayne1]

Wow it really does make so much sence for wotc to print out all the variations of MC in ixilan. Knowing full well it was in discussions of getting band. Great idea, just Superb!

[@Spanner1971B]

So is Richard saying he wants some sort of Spreadsheet where Commanders are listed with cards they are or are not allowed? "Kaalia? You can't play Jewelled Lotus. Thantis? Yeah, thats trash, yoiu can have JL." Weird take. You have to either allow or not allow. Not Spreadsheet permitted cards based on Commander.

[@dud_studley]

Plus, they already tried to do a more nuanced ban list with "Banned as Commander" to allow people to play certain cards in certain scenarios. They got rid of "Banned as Commander" on the basis that it's just easier for players of all experience levels to track things if the cards are just banned altogether. There's no good reason to make the banned list more complex by adding something like "Banned except when playing Commanders with mana value 8 or greater."

[@kuroXkaji]

That's not what he said at all lol. Some commanders go Off with JL some just get on the table. So is the problem Voja or is it JL?

[@randomaether]

I think a point system like canadian highlander might be cool

[@simple685]

Just have a major ban list with many many cards and have on the rc website 2 ways to play, ban list version or rule zero version. Put a huge emphasis on the choice before playing with your play group and thats it. Despite what certain people are screaming players do like having structure and this gives the best choice for both

[@justinwelsh9367]

Hard disagree with Richard. Companies do not care about the long term, they care about the quarter. They can, will, and have made the game less fun to make more money. They can't make the game too unfun but they will try their hardest to find the balance that makes most money.

[@njmaloney25]

Seth, there is no way the saying "I don't have a horse in this fight" is a thing but it is now my favourite way of saying it.

[@Kopekemaster]

27:28 this is what I've been thinking. Things like this bring it into perspective - if you are willingly paying $100 for a piece of cardboard, you may want to consider that you aren't buying something with any innate value, it's something that can contextually crash in price. I feel for those who have lost money as a result of the bannings, and I do think it's very important for Magic cards to have *some* secondary value, but bear in mind that you lost that money the moment you paid it for a piece of cardboard with value only created by its role in a game. That being said, as virtually everyone (including the RC) has acknowledged, the RC really did this in basically the worst way they could. They gave an explanation of why they don't like a watchlist, but that rings hollow when Dockside and Nadu already were ON the "watchlist". The watchlist doesn't need to be an official list of every card that might get banned, it's just when they discuss a card and say that they're concerned about it and are considering if it should be in the format. Just SOME degree of signaling that it may not be legal forever. Ban Dockside and say in the announcement that they're thinking of removing some other egregious fast mana pieces. Obviously some people would still have an issue with it when they got banned, but at least they wouldn't be blindsided. To be clear, I don't have a horse in this race. I have a copy of Dockside from the precon, but that's it (and I'll still keep it in the deck it's in anyway).

[@RicardoFukui]

Dockside was watchlisted by everyone who plays commander. and I had 2, one on my pre-con and other in my breya... this card needed to be banned and even the CEDH players know that.

[@edpaolosalting9116]

If you put a watchlist for cards, no doubt most MTG finance people will do a bank run equivalent to offload their possible losses. Lose-lose situation.

[@Kopekemaster]

@@edpaolosalting9116 but they *did* put Dockside on the "watchlist" (in the sense that I described), and I don't believe that happened (maybe I just missed it but I think it kept its value). Something I didn't realize is that they *kinda* took Dockside off the "watchlist" - basically, they had addressed keeping an eye on Dockside as a problematic card, then in their January 2023 update they said that they've decided to not ban it unless it suddenly becomes more prevalent in casual playgroups. Even then though, it's still them publicly acknowledging that it's a very powerful card that is possibly bannable, they just didn't think it was currently an issue in their target demographic - something that is subject to change. It's still *something*, some level of indication that this card is on their radar, and I think that's really all they need to do. I think most people's issue with this ban is the banning of Lotus and Crypt - people seem pretty unanimous that Nadu should have been banned, and I've seen people asking for a Dockside ban for a long time (much more than Lotus or Crypt). Between that and the RC publicly discussing concerns with Dockside in the past, it seems like most people don't mind that ban nearly as much as the others. Everyone just got blindsided by Lotus and Crypt. This is obviously just me talking from my personal (limited) experience, though.

[@bobthor9647]

The RC should use data and not their own personal philosophy. And really giving the job of managing a format this huge shouldn’t be the job of 4 volunteers. I say 4 because they didn’t listen to Olivia

[@rees1058]

You're not wrong. A lot of the community does love it. They're just not the vocal ones. The "aggrieved."

[@Chthuwu_OwO]

I actually agree with the RC about not consulting with the CAG. No matter how much you trust any individual person, if you got them all together in a room and told them a big secret, the news would leak. Once it’s leaked, there would be a long period of gray area until the official announcement where the more informed and ear-to-the-ground could potentially take advantage of less informed players and dump off their cards to them

[@alexmanzanares200]

Then why have a CAG? Hell its literally 12 people, if that is too many for the RC to consider effectively keeping anything from leaking, why not officially reduce the number to a more manageable count?

[@Chthuwu_OwO]

The CAG still offers valuable input and diversity of opinions, which would lessen by cutting members. It sounds like the RC got sufficient information to make their decision based on the questions they asked the CAG without having to divulge these bans, so there’s no need to spill the beans

[@fenixiliusstrife1253]

@@alexmanzanares200 Just because you higher an advisor, doesn't mean you give them all your secrets. You give them what you need them to evaluate : "Does fast mana need to go? The answer was yes. And it went.

[@alexmanzanares200]

@fenixiliusstrife1253 Except thats a incredibly vague way to gather infor or data especially since it was a bloody polling done over the years. It wasn't even "does fast mana need to go" but instead "is fast mana a problem". They didn't review more unto what the CAG members who voted yes may think on what a potential solution may be, what communication could be had, and hell even members among the RC disagree with how the banningd went. Some argued to had ban Dockside and Na instead and wait to see if their new tools they are developing rn will help prevent Jewled and Mana Crypt leaking into casual.

[@alexmanzanares200]

@@fenixiliusstrife1253 Fact of the matter the way the RC went about not only invited much more negative of a response than it should've had, but also opened the gates of unwarranted hate and criticism on the CAG to the point 2 members have already resigned. Even the RC acknowledged they're mistake in this and that things should've been handled differently on approach at the very least.

[@VexylObby]

Having an advisory committee does not mean you have a committee that makes the decisions. Just because one gives their opinion, doesn't mean their preferences are meant to come to fruition.

[@patriciaboggs8882]

Hilariously, the day before this video was going to be posted, it is already outdated! Why are you talking about banlist? The whole format just changed hands!!!!

[@lukusridley]

I think the idea that "normal players" are upset by these bans is bizarre. People who are dropping hundreds of dollars for mana crypts are the commander equivalent of people who buy prosumer audio gear; a loud and high-spending niche audience but absolutely not representative of the average consumer!

[@SamuraiJM]

1. Buy singles 2. Proxy anything over $10 👍 Also cards that should be banned need to meet all three of these criteria: 1. Powerful (format warping) 2. Popular (goes in every deck) 3. Salty (you hate to see it across the table)

[@Dstinct]

What this banning has done is reaffirm the charade that the format has always been, and has to be. It was created to be a causal kitchen table format among friends who decided as a group what the play experience was they wanted. This discussion is essential to the format working. A ban list should not exist for the format if it functioning as designed. In the beginning, it was a list of recommendations to help curate your play experience. Once it went "mainstream" and into the LGS, the format no longer worked. Sheldon had said on multiple occasions that the format is inherently broken and required the rule 0 convo in order to work. Now in a public environment, you are interacting with players with different wants and expectations. If a person wants a casual experience but refuses to convey that, they are going to have a bad time playing with players that find high powered games fun. A ban list doesn't work because a competitively minded player is going to use that as the ceiling they want to push against. You can keep lowering the ceiling, but they will just use that as the new one. A ban list cannot enforce behavior.

[@sethvoNhaNdorf]

So true! How players want to play should be, and is, up to them. Communication is the key!

[@bobthor9647]

Good points . As a player who frequently visits different stores and teaches new players, I prefer a very short banned list with an RC that doesn’t try to enforce their personal philosophy and leaves people alone .

[@harvest4396]

Thank you Richard for thinking of non content creators. I feel like this was the first time I agreed with everything Richard said

[@jcstaff1007]

32:31 Crim’s exactly right. I came into Magic in 2019 from playing Yugioh’s TOSS format where Thunder Dragon Colossus was like at least an $80 card and you NEED a playset of them to even exist in the meta and then it got banned. Everyone KNEW it was a miserable card to play against. They always got reprinted too or power crept so other staples like Infinite Impermanence were around $80+ and fell to like $40. It was absolutely expected to have reprints that lower the “equity” of cards. What you were paying for usually was the opportunity to play these cards first and in tournaments before they became irrelevant. That’s been all card games since ever. Either way, i see the reaction by players to be an incorrect assumption by them to think that this is somehow an investment opportunity due to the reserve list existing. The reserve list is the biggest lie Wizards has made to its consumers and the 30th anniversary was proof of that. Players should’ve known by that point that Wizards will do anything to make money and them convincing players that Volcanic Island will never be reprinted and is worth $500+ then making official “proxies” for $1000 is the lie being sold in plain sight.

[@brendans1983]

Comparing a ban, from another card game, where you NEEDED the card to play vs. a ban on cards that increased a deck's power by mere percentage points is not quite correct. I see what you went for, but the reasonings for the yugioh ban seemed legit, if you NEEDED them.

[@Mr.CrossFire]

Really like the deep dive on this guys. I like what Seth said about how to manage this better! I think all of this was fine. I think banning mana crypt that has been in the format from day 1 isn't great for view of the format. I think it is probably a good choice but the inconsistencies with the ban list is my big problem with it. Jeweled lotus is only slightly better from other 1 shot accelerates but agree it isnt great for the format. Sol ring should also be included too if fast mana is a problem. Saying that we can't ban it as it is format defining but saying we are banning for game play reasons is a pretty bad stance.

[@beverlyshields2399]

As tomer and Seth were talking about, the tcg market kinda feels like crypto. And that thing Richard said about a player buying with the expectation of losing at max 10% it just makes me realize how utterly delusional these people are. And to crimm's point, I just came back to mtg from playing yugioh, that market would make mtg finance guys hang themselves. the investor mindset truly doesn't make sense in a card game, these are game pieces and are to be treated as such.

[@JabeRaddle]

On rule zero and banlists: I was new to commander once. I had collected cards since I was a kid but never played any sanctioned or formal games. It was just me and my brother building decks out of what we had and playing for fun. So when a friend of mine in college told me about commander and gave me the low-down that it's basically a format where you get to play with cards you own and have a cool legendary creature as your champion of sorts I was stoked. I built a deck out of cards I owned that I thought were cool and fun. I didn't even know there was a banlist and never even considered it as a possibility. Some of those cards I owned and wanted to play were land destruction cards because I grew up playing armageddons and things like that. So I showed up to the LGS and played Keldon Firebombers in a game and everyone there groaned. Luckily for me, the people there knew I was new to the game and played along without making me feel bad. Another time I did the old Mycosynth Lattice + Vandalblast combo and the vibe totally changed. The people I was playing with got frustrated and asked me "do you have a way to win in the next turn or two? Because if not, you shouldn't do that kind of thing!" I was super confused at first. These were just cards I owned that I loved and to me it was every bit as valid of a play as anything else. But I learned from that experience. I learned that people don't really get mad when you kill their stuff, but messing with their lands makes them mad. Since I was going to this store with my friend mostly just to have fun I decided that I didn't want the awkward and tense vibes in my games and I gave up my land destruction spells on my own. There was no rule 0 discussion. No one mentioned anything about any unwritten rules or banlists. I just learned that it's less fun to play those cards than it seems when deckbuilding. I think this is a perfectly fine and healthy way for players to learn the format. If you play something and it changes the vibes of your game and makes you uncomfortable and have less fun, then don't play it. Hopefully the people you're playing with are gracious, roll with the punches, and kindly clue you in on the unwritten guidelines of the format. A huge long ban list of specific cards or a lengthy discussion about what types of things are not generally allowed would have been a huge turn off for me and I'm sure it would be for other newcomers as well. I think a lot of us have kind of lost the spirit of this format over the years and are too hung up on metas and what's best. I personally have the most fun playing janky old cards that I own and love and I think that's the most beautiful thing about commander.

[@vc.moser.ferrier]

To me it's not about communication. It just went from "don't have to expect such bans" to "what am I going to loose next, why am I suddenly unhappy to have a collection built? Do I like this game still nonetheless?" How could you have any confidence anymore?

[@theflintabletc]

I think Richard nailed it on the head at the end on consumer confidence...

[@as95ms98]

I cant wait for Jeweled Lotus' price to finish tanking so I can buy a bunch of them and sharpie over them as proxies for basic lands. 😂