Predestination - Mastering Reformed Theology chapter 6

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@fresholiveoil6490 8 ай бұрын

"If you could screw up God's plan, you would." I don't agree with some parts of Calvinism, but that is one of the most based statements on humanity that can be made.

@a.39886 8 ай бұрын

-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out. Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption. God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4

@ccrow3355 8 ай бұрын

So its God's plan that you sinned? What a stupid quote

@Crusader926 8 ай бұрын

@@ccrow3355 allowing it to happen is not the same as being responsible for it to happen

@timothyvenable3336 8 ай бұрын

Amen!

@marvalice3455 6 ай бұрын

@@ccrow3355 it's not that his plan is that you sin, but more that his plan is such that you sinning or not is not sufficient to destroy the plan.

@TheStarshipGarage 8 ай бұрын

I was predestined to click on this video.

@josephshirambere3290 8 ай бұрын

same

@michaelbanda9993 8 ай бұрын

I was predestined to reply to this comment.

@elijahcandage 8 ай бұрын

@@michaelbanda9993 I didn't want to but I was predestined to like your comment.

@MSKofAlexandria 8 ай бұрын

@@michaelbanda9993 I was predestined to reply to your comment, and also predestined to end this reply with a period.

@noahporing 8 ай бұрын

I was predestined to be the fifth😅reply on your comment.

@perfidious333 8 ай бұрын

“Btw, the Disney sequels are not cannon.” We’ve found an elected one, boys!

@Istobias 8 ай бұрын

Yesssss!!!!

@JWARStudios 7 ай бұрын

There will be many false sequels in the last days.

@Orthosaur7532 7 ай бұрын

@@JWARStudios 😂😂

@Echarterisc Ай бұрын

@perfidious333, Jesus revealed that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world, the elect and the reprobates. All the elect are predestined to be saved because they are the children of God and are born believer, all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are the children of the the devil and will never belielive nor repent. Example of the reprobates are found in John 8:44 where Jesus said: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Example of the children of God can be found in Romans 8:14-16. and in Psalm 82:6

@kaiserconquests1871 8 ай бұрын

If there was one thing I agree with it was "Disney sequels are not canon"

@aelarlightbringer6372 8 ай бұрын

If we're using them as an analogy, the sequels are the Book of Mormon.

@michaeltagor4238 8 ай бұрын

@@aelarlightbringer6372you mean the Quran

@venmarobinson2424 8 ай бұрын

Facts straight up facts, couldn’t said it any better.

@AetherScientificCorporation 8 ай бұрын

@@michaeltagor4238both*

@thomasc9036 8 ай бұрын

...none of the Disney book or story adaptions are canon.

@sesshomaru9512 8 ай бұрын

"Oh no, predestination isn't as bad as you think!" *looks inside* "It's exactly as bad as I thought."

@c-qpo 8 ай бұрын

It’s just as bad as you thought because you don’t understand how Bad you are

@theankotze1292 8 ай бұрын

Amen. A bunch of garbage theology

@olekcholewa8171 8 ай бұрын

It's even worse than I thought. It's pure aids.

@RamonIsHim 8 ай бұрын

Genuinely disgusting theology coming from supposed Christians The Holy Spirit will tell you what the truth is. Calvinism comes from thinking way too hard about how to turn Christianity into an exclusive elite club.

@pedroguimaraes6094 8 ай бұрын

@@theankotze1292 Yeah, the garbage theology that almost all Europe and America held during the reformation and until the last 200 years and that Athanasius, Augustine, Aquinas and a lot of important theologions much more intelligent and devoted than you and your pastor/priest believed.

@john-xp4em 8 ай бұрын

"The 👑GREATEST Man in HISTORY" had no servants, yet they called Him Master. Had no degree, yet they called Him Teacher. Had no medicines, yet they called Him Healer. He had no army, yet kings feared Him. He won no military battles, yet He conquered the world. He did not live in a castle, yet they called Him Lord, He ruled no nations, yet they called Him King, He committed no crime, yet they crucified Him. He was buried in a tomb, yet He lives today! "His name is Jesus❤"

@a.39886 8 ай бұрын

@MauricioLSB 8 ай бұрын

You know. I now understand why there's such amount of atheist people coming from protestatism. This is definitely not for a weak and childish mind

@SayWhat6187 8 ай бұрын

Amen!

@BarryvanderMerwe 8 ай бұрын

Amen

@mezke.official 5 ай бұрын

Amen 🙏✝️❤️

@basedthomasaquinas 8 ай бұрын

this sounds a lot like Animal Farm "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"

@betrion7 8 ай бұрын

How about everyone is equal but some are first among equals?

@basedthomasaquinas 8 ай бұрын

@@betrion7 that too sounds the same

@Commandosoap777 8 ай бұрын

@@betrion7you just said the same thing again in a different way

@betrion7 8 ай бұрын

@@basedthomasaquinas welp that was the point; that's the pope. You should know that Thomas.

@basedthomasaquinas 8 ай бұрын

@@betrion7 nope, that's the Pope in Orthodoxy's view, in Catholicism the Pope is the head of the Church, not a primus inter pares

@SrSiervo 8 ай бұрын

The key to understanding predestination in the Ephesian passage is to recognize the super important modifying phrase "in him" -used in Ephesians over ten times. What was predestined therefore was not individuals to salvation but the 'vehicle' for that salvation, which is Christ. (Which the video gets right) Whoever would humble themselves and get in the vehicle (i.e., respond to the Gospel) will be saved. God predestined a 'vehicle' to leave the 'station', and it's guaranteed (predestined) to reach its 'destination'; and anyone who responds to God's invitation and gets on it will be saved. Those who refuse to get on will be lost. God predestined these as the available choices, but he didn't predestine which choice you will make. That is the fatal mistake Calvinism makes in their understanding of predestination. Contrary to their system, the offer to be saved is clearly open to all according to the Bible (which the video incorrectly disagrees with). The Roman's passage on predestination is not talking about individual predestination either, but rather, that all those who would be saved are "predestined to be conformed to the image of his son...", i.e., sanctified. In other words, God's purpose for all who come into the 'vehicle' (Christ) is that they become like Jesus in every way, i.e., in all their character. May God bless our Calvinist brothers and sisters, our contentions are not with each other, but with false doctrine that seeps into the church. "Doctrines of demons" as Paul says, that work to cause division in the body, and distraction that hinders the work of the Gospel and diminishes our view of God's love and grace. None of these teachings existed in the church before Augustine. It is very significant that none, literally zero, of the early church fathers, the men who led the church after the Apostles for almost 400 years, taught or understood election and predestination this way. Augustine was formerly a Manichean in his philosophy and that heavily influenced his understanding of predestination. Namely, it caused him to have a gnostic & deterministic view of all things. Scholar Dr. Ken Wilson has done some great historical work on that regarding those documented gnostic influences on Augustine -please read him. Calvin just picked up where Augustine left off and ran with it. By the way, the video is mistaken in saying Aquinas held these same views, his views on election and predestination were very different from Augustine. Calvinism contradicts scripture which says God loves and wants all to be saved, and that he shows no partiality, nor is he pleased with the destruction of the wicked. (Ezekiel chs. 18 and also 33, among many other passages). Calvinism distorts God's character, and his will for all peoples. I believe there are many sincere and God-loving Calvinists, but this part of their theology is badly mistaken. God loves them, and they'll be saved if they believe, but this heretical teching will burn up on judgment day.

@neoturfmasterMVS 8 ай бұрын

I don't know you did alot of work to reexplain Ephesians in a sorta skew way. It would be simple to read that "in him" people have been predestined for salvation. See how easy that was?

@robertshrote6243 8 ай бұрын

I've been doing a deep dive on election and predestination and have reached similar conclusions. For those interested, William W. Klein's book "The New Chosen People: A Corporate View of Election" is both detailed and scholarly and goes through almost all the relevant texts dealing with election, predestination, etc. in the NT. I found it very helpful and it gave me a better understanding of Jewish and early Christian thought on these topics.

@torshavnnewell 8 ай бұрын

@@robertshrote6243 what does corporate mean in this context

@robertshrote6243 8 ай бұрын

@@torshavnnewellCorporate refers to a category of people in this context. The closest analogy I can think of is the concept of sets within mathematics. In math, a set is a collection of elements. Sets and elements are independent entities, since sets can be empty (composed of no elements). A set is analogous to a corporate body of believers (or in other terminology, the elect), and an element is analogous to an individual believer (someone who is among the elect). This idea tracks well with the concept of Israel's election in the OT. Israel is selected as a people, as a corporate entity, and is given the task to be the light of the world and proclaim the truth of God. Membership to Israel, the people of God, is determined by adherence to the Law, ancestry, and for males, circumcision. In the NT, Paul continues with this concept of corporate identity in his epistles. In most notably Romans, Paul explains that the Law and circumcision are insufficient to be considered part of the people of God. No one in Israel is without sin despite having the Law. Furthermore some Gentiles do what is required of the Law despite not having it and not being circumcised. Paul explains that Jesus accomplishes what Israel has not done and indeed could not do, He fulfills the Law, and He condemns sin and defeats death through His crucifixion, death, and resurrection. Through faith in Jesus, not through the Law and circumcision, we can be considered part of the people of God, part of the new Israel, the elect. This is accessible to both Jews and Gentiles alike. As a final remark, corporate election does not refer to the idea that salvation somehow depends on the actions of or is through group members. This is not biblical and is heretical.

@torshavnnewell 8 ай бұрын

@@robertshrote6243 Thanks, that's good to know

@srleplay 8 ай бұрын

This comes from everyone interpreting the Bible, quoted passages mean that God chose everyone in Christ but everyone is free to reject the calling. Parable of the Talents said by Jesus himself tells us our free will is paramount

@ikemeitz5287 8 ай бұрын

"This comes from everyone interpreting the Bible" as opposed to the one person whom you happen to agree with. Who coincidentally is the only one who should be allowed to interpret the Bible.

@srleplay 8 ай бұрын

@@ikemeitz5287 Councils of bishops with unbroken apostolic succession aren't one person

@GreenGoblin107 8 ай бұрын

You cannot reject the calling. If you could, you’d have power over Gods will. No one has that. ”For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?“ ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭15‬-‭24‬ ‭ESV‬‬ bible.com/bible/59/rom.9.15-24.ESV

@scorpionjaxxer339 8 ай бұрын

@@GreenGoblin107yes, you most certainly can because God gave us free will.

@GreenGoblin107 8 ай бұрын

@@scorpionjaxxer339 Slow down. Take a deep breath. Now, actually read the scripture I sent; pray about it, read it again, and then pray some more. You’ll be fine.

@CadenMiller-l8u Ай бұрын

This was the topic I’ve struggled most with as a Christian, but now I understand: God ultimately knows whether or not we will be saved since he knows the future, but it’s still up to our free will. Even though he knows the future, he didn’t decide who gets saved, we decide.

@lofg6926 27 күн бұрын

So that's basically no predestination whatsoever, cause it's illogical. Yeah, I agree.

@pr1sm828 18 күн бұрын

@@lofg6926How is it illogical? God’s will shall be done regardless.

@Victoria_Loves_Jesus 8 ай бұрын

"For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL men, especially of those that believe." 1 Tim 4:10

@Ezk47 8 ай бұрын

This verse is completely meaningless if God predestined some people to hell and others to heaven.

@Troublechutor 7 ай бұрын

@@Ezk47 Everyone that believes in original sin also believes that they require salvation just to avoid hell... hell is the destination, salvation is exactly what it sounds like. When Jesus tells the thief on the cross that they will be together in paradise... he doesn't say "if"

@Ezk47 7 ай бұрын

@@TroublechutorOf course he didnt say "IF" the thief was on a cross aswell. There was nothing he could do. But that verse doesn't explain the predestination doctrine. It shows that Christ can forgive the sin of man even on the cross because He is God.

@Troublechutor 7 ай бұрын

@@Ezk47 So the thief could have rejected salvation after Jesus told him he was bound for paradise with him? The point is that Jesus didn't say to the thief "we're going to be in paradise together IF you don't (insert bad thing here)" He stated a fact of what the future that didn't have conditions, which doesn't allow for the possibility that it won't be true. Look at it another way, Jesus told Peter that he'd reject him 3 times before the rooster crowed. Lucky guess?

@Ezk47 7 ай бұрын

@@Troublechutor It wasn't a lucky guess. If Jesus is God, then of course, He knows whats going to happen in the future. If you put It this way..

@nateq 8 ай бұрын

God is omnibenevolent, so He doesn't love anyone less. It's in His will for everyone to be saved, so He chooses everyone. We have the option to then choose or to not choose God. Our free will is the only area in which God limited His sovereignty

@shleepz 8 ай бұрын

So there's a chance God can want to save someone and fail and lose them to he'll? Doesn't sound very all powerful

@audreyc3398 8 ай бұрын

@@shleepz Some argue the points about free will and "choice hell" (vs punishment hell). Regarding free will, you can't have a genuine relationship with a robot, or someone who's forced to do X. Choice hell is the idea that people who don't try to be Christ-like are incabable of experiencing Heaven because it's so contrary to their nature, like in C.S. Lewis' "The Last Battle" (when the treacherous dwarves are in Aslan's country but they don't see/hear/smell the beauty around them and they can't enjoy it)

@shleepz 8 ай бұрын

@PsycheReveals God chose Israelites, Abram, out of the nations. No one has a problem with this. Suddenly when God is consistent and does the same thing in modern times everyone throws a fit

@p.j.obrien7034 8 ай бұрын

@@shleepzCreating mankind Good and them descending into wickedness doesn't sound all powerful either. I have the power to stop my dog from barking. I can take its life whenever I want. Having all the power doesn't mean using all the power. Sometimes you restrain yourself, especially when it comes to the things you love.

@TheJman423 8 ай бұрын

@@shleepz God wants to save everyone. Its of that person's own choice that they go to hell. Welcome to Christianity!

@oscarmarquardt3783 8 ай бұрын

6:26 But Luke Skywalker doesn’t truly have free will, since he only does and says what George Lucas scripts him to do/say.

@through-faith-alone 8 ай бұрын

in the context of the story, he does. He is a player in the story. That's the point.

@disguisedcentennial835 8 ай бұрын

@@through-faith-alone the story isn’t real. In the context of actual reality, he has no free will and isn’t even real. That’s the point.

@through-faith-alone 8 ай бұрын

@@disguisedcentennial835 IF the story were reality, he WOULD have free will. That's the point.

@jonazo7188 8 ай бұрын

Imagine if George Lucas wrote himself into the story to tell the emperor, “I wrote you to be evil. Your fate is to be thrown down into the core of the Death Star and exploded to death and there’s nothing you can do about it because that’s how I wrote the story.” Would that have made the story better?

@quietmousse 8 ай бұрын

Isn't the real question: did Mark Hamill have the free will to accept the role of Luke Skywalker 🤔

@toluwalasearinola2908 8 ай бұрын

I don't subscribe to this predestination of a thing..i think i am predestined to reject predestination

@CristOportunidad 8 ай бұрын

Bro got Soteriology 101'd B)

@tjbol 8 ай бұрын

You don’t reject predestination brother. You and myself reject the presupposed definition of it. The Bible teaches predestination, and it’s a great doctrine concerning eternal security.

@cesarvasquez9839 8 ай бұрын

Nah. Jesus never taugth predestination.

@ansich3603 7 ай бұрын

@@cesarvasquez9839which Jesus are you following??? Islamic Jesus??? ITS LITERALLY EVERYWHERE IN THE GOSPEL 😂 John 6:44 (LITV) No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. John 15:16 (LITV) You have not chosen Me, but I chose you out and planted you, that you should go and should bear fruit, and your fruit remain, that whatever you should ask the Father in My name, He may give you. John 6:37 (LITV) All that the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will in no way cast out. Mark 13:20 (LITV) And if the Lord had not shortened the days, not any flesh would be saved; but because of the elect whom He chose, He has shortened the days. John 17:2 (LITV) as You gave to Him authority over all flesh, so that to all which You gave to Him, He may give to them everlasting life. Matthew 10:29 (LITV) Are not two sparrows sold for an assarion? Yet not one of them shall fall to the ground without your Father. I can give you many more especially from the teaching of apostles and OT. Predestination is 100% Biblical

@GospelOverCulture 7 ай бұрын

@@cesarvasquez9839if you don’t believe in predestined, you would have to believe God is not all knowing, and that’s heretical. Ephesians 1:4 “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love”

@spyfox315 8 ай бұрын

The Luke Skywalker analogy seems like a bad one because Luke doesn’t actually have free will. What Luke does is determined by what George Lucas wrote, if Luke wanted to quit his training and go work at a bar that’s not an option…If we are set on a script we cannot override the script, the same way a robot cannot override what it’s creator designed it to do. Am I missing something here?

@disguisedcentennial835 8 ай бұрын

It’s not a bad one at all. It’s the best one.

@spyfox315 8 ай бұрын

@@disguisedcentennial835Can you explain how a character who’s actions are predetermined by a script is different from a robot who’s actions are predetermined by it’s programming?

@duppy9012 8 ай бұрын

I was thinking the same thing, i am surprised he managed to record, edit and upload that clip without seeing how brain numbingly stupid it was to say a fictional character who's every action is controlled to the finest detail by the author has free will.

@disguisedcentennial835 8 ай бұрын

@@scorpionjaxxer339 exactly why Calvinism doesn’t work. 😊

@yunaru3643 7 ай бұрын

@@scorpionjaxxer339 The analogy is good. The theology is bad. That's what he meant.

@santiboy1127 8 ай бұрын

Yep, and this is where I part ways with Reformed theology. Love it a lot and I agree with a good chunk of it, but I simply cant look at calvinism and say its an intellectually honest view of the scriptures. Either way though, I love all of my brothers in christ and wish everyone Godspeed! This series has been epic Zoomer, your channel is such a blessing! Keep up the good work and God bless!

@pedroguimaraes6094 8 ай бұрын

For me it is simply impossible to read the scriptures and not see the complete sovereignty of God from beggining to end and to read Romans and not see the Apostle Paul speaking clearly about predestination. It's a lot of desire not to want to believe in predestination

@santiboy1127 8 ай бұрын

@@pedroguimaraes6094 Not at all, but I wont get into the nitty grittys and argue lol. Romans 9 is talking about God electing the Nation of Israel and how no one can question his decisions. because he is God. It is not talking about salvation however, and there are many times that the Lord says he wants all to repent and come to him, which would not make sense if he was the one choosing. Now of course, he did technically choose who will be saved when he elected to create this universe, but he knew that it would only be the people who heard his gospel and came to him. In fact, I believe God is more sovereign than calvinists do, because I believe that God can get his will done through our free will. Now. Again, I love you brother and I dont wanna start quoting scripture and get in a huge discussion with you over secondary topics. I hope you have a blessed day!

@pedroguimaraes6094 8 ай бұрын

@@santiboy1127 I completely disagree with your exegesis of Romans lol. But as you said, this is an impossible discussion to resolve here, so I'm just going to make a small correction to the end of your comment. We believe that God is Sovereign and that human beings make their decisions freely (they just can't choose God). This is what the Wesminster Confession o Faith says in its chapter 3: "1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.c" Providence means that everything that happened was preordained by God according to his will, but God did so using the free actions of his creatures. One example that illustrates it is what Apostle Peter's said in Acts 22: "This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men." - God planned the crucifixion of Christ and preordained it to happen since the beginning, but God did not force the will of men to crucify Christ and they were harshly held responsible by Peter. So, having clarified this and undoing the strawman that is commonly said, the problem that Arminians and other Christians who believe in free will have with us is simply about God's Sovereignty in election, it is something very specific tbh. They believe that there is some human participation/cooperation and we do not.

@santiboy1127 8 ай бұрын

@@pedroguimaraes6094 Thank you, Godspeed brother.

@thomasthellamas9886 8 ай бұрын

@@wrongsuitnotie8427Church father heretics would prolly disagree. The disciples would bend the knee to daddy Calvins superior theology

@uglinus 8 ай бұрын

How can you say that God chooses who will be saved? Then why evangelise? I agree that God is the one that saves, we don't do that ourselves, only through his grace, but I have to make that choice for myself if I want to reject or accept Jesus.

@michaelbanda9993 8 ай бұрын

Ahh I remember when I thought this same way

@AndrewEtmus 8 ай бұрын

“How can you say that God chooses who will be saved?” Because Ephesians 1:4 says that God “chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.” Also because God is sovereign. “Then why evangelise?” Because, while God is ultimately sovereign, he often works in and through secondary causes. As a biblical example, Joseph’s brothers meant their actions against Joseph for evil, but God worked them for good.

@Jupinoloper 8 ай бұрын

Evangelism is a way that God draws people to Him

@MSKofAlexandria 8 ай бұрын

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Before Abraham was, He was. He gave you the slightest bit of power that trembles when compared to His. You cannot reject Him.

@srleplay 8 ай бұрын

@@MSKofAlexandria Bfr Abe was, He is, God is timeless and unchanging. Both Old and New Testament are full of people rejecting God. Your view is that God created some people just for him to damn them to eternal suffering, contradicts whole bunch of direct quotes of Jesus and you can forget benevolent God and objective morality with that stance

@BasiliscBaz 8 ай бұрын

I am thankful that God predestined me to don't belive in predistation

@tomtemple69 8 ай бұрын

"I am thankful that God predestined me to don't belive in predistation" you should learn spelling lol

@BasiliscBaz 8 ай бұрын

@@tomtemple69 english is not my first lugguage, sorry and autocorrect thinks he knows best

@bigtruth9653 8 ай бұрын

He's predestined to spell predestination wrong

@tomtemple69 8 ай бұрын

@@BasiliscBaz ok, well your comment is basically blaming God for having bad/incorrect theology you think you're being funny by saying that when in fact it's blasphemy YOU are the reason you have bad theology, God is not to blame

@disreceded 8 ай бұрын

@@tomtemple69ok so God is the type of God who would save random people then make sure other people will not have faith and throws them into hell. Doesn't sound like the omnibenevolent God I knew. calvinism is basically unconditional favoritism

@BrandonWilliams-wf6hg 8 ай бұрын

This just seems like mental gymnastics.

@harrygarris6921 8 ай бұрын

@@SilentEcho4178 sure, but the idea that God being sovereign means he has to control every outcome is actually a really bad way of understanding sovereignty. Ironically if God is unable to grant his creation any kind of agency then he isn’t actually sovereign.

@Commandosoap777 8 ай бұрын

That’s because it is

@duppy9012 8 ай бұрын

Yeah... except no one for the first 1500 years of Christianity believed that so... kinda cooked yourself there bro.@@SilentEcho4178

@disguisedcentennial835 8 ай бұрын

@@SilentEcho4178 the fact Calvinists literally use the same argument as the Mormons is all the more evidence of Satanic influence. “Erm, but the words are in the Bible.” My brother in Christ, your _definitions_ of them _aren’t._ No Arminian is against predestination and election; we are against _your_ “predestination” and _your_ “election.”

@RedeemedReformedRenewed 8 ай бұрын

@@SilentEcho4178 A refreshingly logical response to an angry comment. (:

@Nitnelav1994 8 ай бұрын

It's not that the sequels are not canon, they're just apocrypha

@patrickbuckley7259 8 ай бұрын

Bad Apocrypha like Gnostic Gospels...

@AarmOZ84 6 ай бұрын

Nothing can thwart God's love for us, not even ourselves. Predestination is why I can say I am not save by my own works by solely by the works of Christ Jesus. Soli Gloria Deo!

@datdwaa1532 3 ай бұрын

I'm also not saved by works so that's why I bully my grandmother on a daily basis but oh I'm saved by grace!

@4clover689 4 күн бұрын

@@datdwaa1532that’s Antinomianism, if you are truly saved then you can’t help but bear good fruit

@pipandlou 2 күн бұрын

Christ is the better version of Adam!! A near half century later and it finally makes sense to me! THANK YOU! 🥰🥰🙏😍

@art3misxp784 8 ай бұрын

I was predestined to reject Calvinism ☦️🇻🇦

@pedroguimaraes6094 8 ай бұрын

You will still be responsible for every theological error you believed.

@MatthewPatel-hx4ci 8 ай бұрын

@@pedroguimaraes6094 Nope, No free will therefore no moral responsibility.

@pedroguimaraes6094 8 ай бұрын

@@MatthewPatel-hx4ci You still have volition, we do not claim that you are a robot.

@art3misxp784 7 ай бұрын

@@pedroguimaraes6094 so Redeemed Zoomer is wrong? You guys do hold to the belief that only Calvinists are saved? That’s all I needed to hear. Have the day you deserve.

@pedroguimaraes6094 7 ай бұрын

@@art3misxp784 i did not say that. Everyone who believes in Christ is saved, but we will still be hold responsible in some way by our mistakes lol

@TheOtherCaleb 8 ай бұрын

Being judged (to eternal torment forever in hell) based on characteristics that we cannot control. Ah, Calvinism.

@neoturfmasterMVS 8 ай бұрын

You where predestined to be silly.

@charles21137 8 ай бұрын

That’s like saying “I didn’t choose to be a person who would one day murder, I can’t be he’d accountable!” Riding off of that logic, you can’t blame God if he sends you to hell because he didn’t choose to be a perfect and sovereign Lord.

@TheOtherCaleb 8 ай бұрын

@@charles21137 If you, in fact, had literally no control over murdering somebody, then the sense of the first person goes away completely. It’s an illusion. There’s no “you” doing it, just a mechanistic organism. There’s no “you” to be held accountable. “You” didn’t do anything. You just fell in line for what was necessarily doing to happen. And just because “you” have proximate feelings about an action doesn’t change that fact. Would you accept or reject the notion that one cannot be held to account for something that they have, literally speaking, no control over?

@ngzchongsoon9147 8 ай бұрын

when does it say in this video that human are robot irresponsible for their acts?

@TheOtherCaleb 8 ай бұрын

@@ngzchongsoon9147 Calvinists don’t claim that, but it’s the entailment of their philosophical commitments.

@OneDayataTime-l4v 8 ай бұрын

I was predestined to say predestination is the worst heresy of them all and about as Christian as Islam.

@paulwoodhouse3386 8 ай бұрын

Yawn 🥱

@tomtemple69 8 ай бұрын

so Islam has a more powerful God than Christianity? and no, predestination in Christianity is not the same as Islam

@Commandosoap777 8 ай бұрын

@@tomtemple69it might as well be because in islam god also choses who he saves and the rest of us are wasting our time. Calvinism is silly imagine not being able to say god loves you ; the best u can do is he might love you

@ikemeitz5287 8 ай бұрын

smh, all those heretic theologians ruining the church (Clement, Origen, Augustine, Aquinas, Wycliffe, Staupitz, Calvin, Zwingli, Anselm, Ursinus, Bunyan, Knox, Edwards, Owen, Spurgeon, Warfield, Bavinck, Cranmer, Vos, Machen, nearly all the puritans, and so many thousands more. Not to mention the strongest proponents of this theology: Moses, the prophets, Paul, John, and Christ). Without these "heretics," we wouldn't have the church at all. You can disagree with them, but saying their doctrine is "anti-Christian" is simply ignorant.

@ehhhhhhhhhhk 8 ай бұрын

Based

@hismajesty6272 8 ай бұрын

As someone considering Anglicanism, I’m glad I’m finally getting a good explanation on the ideas around Predestination. God bless.

@tjbol 8 ай бұрын

Don’t jump into presuppositions and in a set of propositions that fit your “liking”. God desires that you study, 2 Tim. 2:15, and show *yourself* approved unto Him. I recommend “Beyond The Fundamentals” here on KZbin to consider that this doctrine is not Biblical.

@adamdaniels1368 2 ай бұрын

I am a Baptist. The thing I love the most about Presbyterians (Presbyter = elder) is that emphasis on the church structured operationally in a biblically sound way. The Bible is clear how churches operate by way of Elder and deacon and I think that is an issue big time in the American church. The elders are supposed to direct the operations. Nowadays pastors do everything it seems.

@RussianTankMan501 8 ай бұрын

Mr. Zoomer, I know you don’t know who I am, but I just want to thank you. Your video on the books of the Bible on May 13th is what brought be back to Christ. Without you, I would be so stressed, melancholy, and a worse person if I didn’t know Christ (although I do now think that God used you as an instrument of bringing me back to him.) So, thank you very much. Keep doing this work for the world. Have a good day.

@ierofei 8 ай бұрын

>RZ: Augustine believed in predestination >Augustine: Writes an entire book outlining why free will is necessary for salvation

@voicedrewxyz 7 ай бұрын

Both of these statements are true.

@heckinbasedandinkpilledoct7459 6 ай бұрын

Augustine is all over the place. Why take his opinions seriously?

@TheFriendlyBaptist 5 ай бұрын

This was great, Zoomer. Thank you for being faithful to the scriptures and clearly showing nuances and where other positions differ.

@larryrzv6173 8 ай бұрын

Amazing, just amazing. I love this channel, I am not a native English speaker so it is hard for me to understand some words, but just by listening and reading what little I understand I can understand everything because even though I don't understand English completely, I understand completely the message of God and that is all I need to understand what this channel of Sound Doctrine has to share from God.

@Catholic_Papalist_Hunter 8 ай бұрын

Laughing in Lutheran

@tomtemple69 8 ай бұрын

Lutherans hold to single predestination not knowing the logical consequence is double predestination 😂

@jyu467 8 ай бұрын

@@tomtemple69 The Lutheran position is that the finite mind cannot understand the infinite. Much like no one can fully understand the Trinity, no mortal man can fully understand the relationship between God's sovereignty and our free will.

@JamesPreus 8 ай бұрын

Calvinism is like 'God is sovereign, he can do anything, except be physically present in the Lord's Supper, if he did that he would explode'.

@NotAGoodUsername360 8 ай бұрын

Seriously, did no one read the Parable of the Sower? Jesus even explained that this is exactly what he was talking about. The seeds are sown everywhere, but it doesn't always take root.

@Heretoga 8 ай бұрын

@@NotAGoodUsername360 Yes i was thinking about this during the video too.

@andymontes3980 8 ай бұрын

Thanks for this video!! Now im most definitely converting to Eastern Orthodoxy!👍

@abford03 8 ай бұрын

Glory to God!

@Commandosoap777 8 ай бұрын

Based on

@Stones-ARock 8 ай бұрын

based

@azers8298 8 ай бұрын

« So God create you as the vilain. And you can’t do shit to change that. And he will torture you for eternity for being the vilain. But he loves you. Just a little less » Yeah, you know what? I’ll go check lutherianism.

@TemperedMedia 8 ай бұрын

So, you're a villain? Of course not. But, are you going to argue that the fiends running the nations into the ground with their glass empires of greed and power are not villains? That God does not love them less because he created them to usher in the End of Days?

@DrGero15 8 ай бұрын

He created Adam to fail too according to Calvin. “Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” John Calvin's Institutes , Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7.

@azers8298 8 ай бұрын

@@TemperedMedia Maybe i’m the vilain, i don’t know. It’s litteraly stated in the video above. But what i am is not the point here. Let’s take some of…not very nice people. Pol Pot, to take an extreme. If God created him, refused to save him, and decide to torture him for eternity, do you see it as love ? Because if you consider it as a sign of a fatherly love, you grew up in a pretty messed up family.

@Jupiter__001_ 8 ай бұрын

@@azers8298 But God did make Pol Pot in order that he might do what he did. God still loved him in spite of his wickedness.

@TemperedMedia 8 ай бұрын

@@azers8298 "Refuse" insinuates Pol Pot wanted to be saved in the first place. If you ask any atheist how they would feel about spending all eternity worshipping Christ, they will say it sounds awful. Ultimately, whether or not you are the villain *is* the point. It's the reason for the church, regardless of whether or not a Calvinist or Arminian or non-denominational chooses to accept the mission. It's always been my passion to want to help people understand what they believe and actively choose to pursue the path they are on, because God put us all on our paths for a reason. He is ultimately in control of this path, and no matter my flailing, I cannot alter it. Doctrine is an important part of a believer's life, as they help make clear definitions for the substance of their faith. Believers ought to want to explore the heights and depths of their worldview and lay the foundations of their faith. It helps them endure the rigors of life; an unshakeable faith is of utmost importance. A believer with firm doctrine is unable to be deceived by Lucifer, whose ultimate goal is to scatter and assail the faith of the elect. However, doctrine is nothing without action (see: the book of James). So, whatever it is you believe, make it certain and act on it. Atheists are capable of doing as much, to their demise...

@Spear1002 7 ай бұрын

God is in control. He is the creator. What more is there to say. Thank God He is in control of my life. What power do I have to decide my own destination? We are all sinners and any decision I make would come from a sinful heart.

@Goingwithafakehandlehere 8 ай бұрын

This has always struck me as a weird argument that you just need to step back from to understand. God is outside time, knowing the end from the beginning and how things will ultimately turn out doesn't mean He caused the thing. Due respect, but I think believers in predestination boils down to a poor understanding of God's relationship with time

@BARDICON 8 ай бұрын

God knows how everything will turn out... Good. Does God have a choice in what he does or doesn't do in time? If yes, does he know what the consequences of his actions will be in time? If yes then you are stuck with the reality that every action in the timeline was caused by God in someway.

@BasiliscBaz 8 ай бұрын

Idea of predistation was predistend to be false in bible when is stated "is in Will of God to save all"

@TemperedMedia 8 ай бұрын

Did you watch the video?

@andrewvela6107 8 ай бұрын

Errrrr 🚫 first Timothy out of context. In context, it’s about praying even for the more fortunate of Christians and that God desires for all Christians to be saved.

@pedroguimaraes6094 8 ай бұрын

So God want to save everyone but somehow He can't? Sorry bro, this is not the God of the Bible. Every time God is portrayed He is portrayed as being sovereign in every possible way and the apostles talked about His sovereignty in predestination so many times that is crazy.

@Commandosoap777 8 ай бұрын

@@pedroguimaraes6094god respect our free will loool it’s ironic a Calvinist thinks this dude you literally are the poster child of what atheists think Christians are according to you God literally didn’t give any human alive rn a fair chance since none of us were able to choose him in eden we are born sinful. Ur idea of god is the same an atheist has

@DrGero15 8 ай бұрын

@@pedroguimaraes6094 So you don't think God wants to save everyone?

@chrisjohnson9542 8 ай бұрын

As a reformed baptist, this was a really good overview of predestination and a helpful tool for people who don't understand or who object and have misconceptions of what calvinists believe. Most people who are against predestination are ignorant that that word is in scripture and deals with the subject pretty intensely. I think I would be more of an infralapsarian but I heard Kieth Foskey say "I don't know and don't care" and I can heartily amen that. Some things aren't revealed to us finite mortal pea brains and thats OK.

@johannesdekoning3765 2 ай бұрын

This is terrible. Only a cruel God would choose to condemn those He loves to an eternity of suffering. The faith can NOT exist without humanity's free will based choice to accept Christ and follow Him, whilst maintaining God is NOT the most cruel being one could imagine. Even the devil has the decency to HATE those he torments. So, for my own sanity (and because I refuse to believe God would even create beings to just condemn somewhere down the line), I'll just pretend I never saw this and move on with my day.

@danielrodgers5390 8 ай бұрын

"And btw the Disney sequels are not canon" 😭💀 this man is so good at sliding in quick jokes

@mysteryman8122 8 ай бұрын

If Gods love is infinite how can he love some more than others?

@hyperteleXii 8 ай бұрын

It's infinite, but conditional. Sinners get less, because they deserve less, because they sin?

@mysteryman8122 8 ай бұрын

@@hyperteleXii If it's infinite how is it conditional? that makes no sense. What do you mean sinners get less? we are all sinners.

@tomtemple69 8 ай бұрын

@@hyperteleXii nope, God cannot love less or more, He loves infinitely and perfectly do you love your friends in the same way as your spouse the same way as your family the same as your church?

@hyperteleXii 8 ай бұрын

Where's the connection in your mind between infinity and unconditional? If you had infinite money, you still wouldn't give any to murderers, would you? Sin comes in different qualities and quantities. A murderer sins more than a drug addict. The more you sin, the less of God's love you receive. My personal understanding is that this isn't so much a judgement from God to be undeserving, but simply the natural/divine consequence of choosing to actively sin. That is, the more and worse you sin, the further *from* God's infinite love you position yourself, thus receiving less. Similar to how we might say that the Sun's energy is practically unlimited, but if you choose to go under shade, you'll naturally receive less of it by your own free will to seek shade. @@mysteryman8122

@Commandosoap777 8 ай бұрын

@@hyperteleXiithat would only work if we got a say in our sinful nature but we don’t

@elizabethclaycomb5176 8 ай бұрын

I love how deep these videos are. They get me all excited about reading the Bible, and I notice things I didn't before

@jamesmartinez2350 8 ай бұрын

Augustine wasn’t anything close to a Calvinist, let’s just all agree on that

@Commandosoap777 8 ай бұрын

Calvinists have to say that since their fanclub has no ties to any early church

@jamesmartinez2350 8 ай бұрын

@@Commandosoap777 oh but they can cope by quote mining

@abhin.v4981 21 күн бұрын

It doesn't make sense for a just God to predestine people to hell for what Adam did. If it is just , then the word justice has no meaning.

@timothyeyo9245 8 ай бұрын

'Free will' is NOT self-determination. It is the moral freedom to do that which one deems to be good or fulfilling in some respect. Self-determination to mean deciding your own 'fate' is completely alien to Christianity. It's a bad conflation that needs addressing.

@a.39886 8 ай бұрын

1-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out. Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption. God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4

@timothyeyo9245 8 ай бұрын

@a.39886 Your argument is valid but your initial premise is unsound. God's creative will is indeed free and it is precisely for that reason that God by necessity has created and sustains all things. For the purpose that his name is glorified to the end of the unity of the Godhead. The opposite is quite true, God would not be free if he couldn't seek that which would bring him glory. Your second premise is sound, no one forces God to create, nor can they, he does it out of his wisdom and sovereignty. Indeed he has created some for his name's sake as objects of his glory and others as objects for his wrath. This may make him seem to some as a self-absorbed narcissist, but it is far from that. It is so that we may enjoy him fully and share in the riches of his grace as all things are reconciled to him for his good purpose. Yes God is sovereign, but that has little to do with the retribution the angels have and will receive for their rebellion. They were fully aware of the ramifications that their actions would cause, but they still chose of their own free will to rebel against God. Unlike us, they do not second-guess, once they set out to do something, they are fully committed to it. They seek neither forgiveness nor redemption. Even if they did how can their sins be atoned for? God is just by nature, therefore he must punish sin. Angels are not generational like mankind is, each is its unique species. A mediator would therefore need to pay that debt over and over as many times as there are many angels. After all, if it's to be done for one angel, it is only just to do the same for all the others. This is all assuming that there is even a sufficient sacrifice that can be made, given that angels are immortal creatures, how would one made in their likeness make reparation for their sins? Remember the wages of sin is death.

@a.39886 8 ай бұрын

1) God wasn`t forced to created he could chose to not create unless you are bounding his attribute of freedom to only create. 2) God know beforehand he created he will create something he doesn`t want (sin) and due to his will of creating that most mankind will be doomed to eternal suffering in hell because this bring glory to his name. 3) God wants that people to be in eternal pain in hell or he won`t create the ones that will end up in that place@@timothyeyo9245

@heterian97 7 ай бұрын

So, God decided that the best way to show his glory is to create people that are destined to eternal suffering, for absolutely no other reason? Contrary to his benevolence, free grace towards humans, incarnation as Christ, and so many other things somehow don't prove. Hmm...

@timothyeyo9245 7 ай бұрын

@heterian97 You make it seem like that is somehow unjustified. God is good and his ways are perfect, we sometimes don't understand that. Evil is necessary to glorify what is good. If there were no darkness, how then could the light be appreciated. Suffering and adversity refine virtue enabling growth. Some endure to the end by God's grace and others fall by the way. It is out of his benevolence in the first place that he offered up himself, but not everyone accepts this gift, those who do are enabled to do so FOR his glory.

@Liberaven 5 ай бұрын

Ezekiel 33:11 is very clearly saying that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, instead hoping that they live and change their ways. If the wicked are the non-elect, then this suggests that the non-elect can change and become elect.

@JESUS_Saves3747 5 ай бұрын

2 Thessalonians 2:13 “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”

@Nukatha 8 ай бұрын

Yeah, no. Luther had it right. Christ died for all. Irresistible Grace is nonbiblical.

@TheNabOwnzz 8 ай бұрын

Romans 9:19.

@iamthasecond 6 ай бұрын

Christ died for all clearly with the divine understanding that the solid minority of people would actually accept that free gift of salvation. He technically died for the elect. John 3:16 clarifies that well: "That whosoever believes." Everyone emphasizes the "whosoever", while it's the "believes" element of that verse that's critical to the Calvinist perspective. It's the qualification for salvation.

@ryleighloughty3307 4 ай бұрын

Do you believe that everyone will ascend to heaven?

@tbrskiv 8 ай бұрын

That's so pure and perfect. Thanks!

@selliri590 8 ай бұрын

It would be easier just to to say, “God doesn’t control people or predestine them, he just knows what will happen”

@troyhare6312 8 ай бұрын

He does predestine though. Scripture explicitly says this.

@theisaiahcc 8 ай бұрын

But, as the video explains, that isn’t what it is. God chooses people in Christ by His own determination. Not based on “what will happen” or what people do.

@MSKofAlexandria 8 ай бұрын

It sure would be easier, but God can do no wrong

@TemperedMedia 8 ай бұрын

I don't think you understood the video, then. Which is fair imo, because it's pretty heady to think upon. But mere foreknowledge of our choices makes us the ultimate authority of our lives, as God chose to respond to our free will, rather than His will being imposed upon us.

@harrygarris6921 8 ай бұрын

@@troyhare6312 Does scripture define predestination as "God chooses before creation who's going to heaven and who's going to hell when they die?" No, it doesn't. St. Justin Martyr was the first Christian to talk about predestination after the writings of Paul and he talks about it as God's foreknowledge of our will. I think it's pretty safe to conclude that a second century Jewish Christian saint understood the context of the early scriptures and the faith taught by the apostles better than a 16th century French lawyer who was completely removed from all of it.

@devinarmstrong7857 8 ай бұрын

Since I'm a Baptist I've found myself butting heads with you before in your videos, but I recently Joined a reformed Baptist church and this video helped me a lot in understanding my own views and coming to terms with calvanism. It was very difficult for me to accept limited Atonement after I heard someone say "Well Jesus didn't Die for all!" So I started reading and studying to come to a conclusion and it's been a few months since then.

@RedPigSpartan 8 ай бұрын

Sounds like that person is a heretic

@devinarmstrong7857 8 ай бұрын

@@RedPigSpartan he may have misspoke in a way he didn't realize would affect my understanding of reformed theology, but he seems to hold to limited Atonement, verbatim.

@Commandosoap777 8 ай бұрын

Go back to being a baptist that person told u the truth these Calvinists just like beating around the bush

@a.39886 8 ай бұрын

@Aidan-ku6tz 6 ай бұрын

yay, free will in everyday choices. Great to know I'll one day burn forever for something completely out of my control.

@Dl-mg3ow 5 ай бұрын

If you love God with your whole heart, soul and mind. Is it out of your control it’s simply your choice either you love The father with your whole heart soul and mind or you love the world and the things in it?

@JESUS_Saves3747 5 ай бұрын

@JasonHoltz 8 ай бұрын

I personally would like to add that while St. Thomas and Calvin had a view of predestination which is much more similar than people think it is definitely distinct

@spencers6263 8 ай бұрын

Anytime I hear Calvinist make an honest claim like all we are characters in a book thats already been written like Zoomer used in this video, that we should be happy and find joy in that and try to paint that reality idea as beautiful and humbling is fascinating but in a sad way because makes God seem very weak and distant despite the attempt to articulate it otherwise. Especially the last couple of minutes. Edit* added clarification on my opinion.

@Commandosoap777 8 ай бұрын

Really i get the opposite feeling they come off as extremely un empathetic cool you’re happy god chose you. What about everyone else? This idea of non believers being bad guys is cartoonishly dumb

@DrGero15 8 ай бұрын

Calvin was more honest about it. “Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” John Calvin's Institutes , Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7

@spencers6263 8 ай бұрын

@@Commandosoap777 I agree with you. I wasn’t very clear. My B. I added more clarification in my comment

@ikemeitz5287 8 ай бұрын

"What if it turns out that we are robots, after all? Clay fashioned into marvelous robots, rather than being left as mere clay? Should we complain to God about that? Or should we rather feel honored, that our bodies and minds are fashioned so completely to fulfill our assigned roles in God’s great drama? Some creatures are born as rabbits, some as cockroaches, some as bacteria. By comparison, would it not be a privilege to be born as an intelligent robot? Indeed, what remarkable robots we would be! Capable of love and intimacy with God, assigned to rule over all the creatures. Is it not a wonderful blessing of grace that, when we sinned in Adam, God did not simply discard us, as a potter might very well do with his clay, and as a robot-operator might well do with his machine, but sent his only Son to die for us? Risen with him to new life, believers enjoy unimaginably wonderful fellowship with him forever. As we meditate on these dignities and blessings, the image of the robot becomes less and less appropriate, not because God’s control over us appears less complete, but because one doesn’t treat robots with such love and honor." - John Frame, Systematic Theology pp1127-1128 The "robot" or "book character" analogies are not good analogies; our relationship with God is utterly unique. But it is better be a robot under God or a character in his book than autonomous outside of him. Our worth and dignity INCREASES as we are nearer and nearer to his will. Autonomy from God is distance from the only source of meaning, value, purpose, and dignity. From what does a desire to be autonomous proceed?

@spencers6263 8 ай бұрын

@@DrGero15 exactly! I added clarification in my first comment. It sounds like something terrible and horrible but we are trying to be convinced that it actually isn’t.

@timothyvenable3336 8 ай бұрын

This is one of the best videos I’ve ever seen. No lie

@jackshadow325 8 ай бұрын

Calvinism is an atheist factory.

@iamthasecond 6 ай бұрын

Lots of things are an "Atheist factory" when misunderstood. The question is: Is the concept biblically accurate or not. It seems to be accurate.

@jackshadow325 6 ай бұрын

@@iamthasecond It’s not accurate thankfully. Calvinism, correctly understood, leads to nihilism.

@iamthasecond 6 ай бұрын

@jackshadow325 No, it can lead to a nihilistic perception of reality... if misunderstood. I personally wouldn't identify as a calvinist, but double predestination is certainly biblical with a complete understanding of the scope of physical and spiritual reality as revealed through scripture and human observational experience. People who use calvinism as a justification for a nihilistic perspective don't understand that they are not equal with God. God's actions and human actions are compatible yet different... vastly categorically different. What particular issues do you have with Calvinism?

@jackshadow325 6 ай бұрын

@@iamthasecond Calvinism is not biblical. It’s only when one reads the bible through a lens of extra-biblical philosophy that one comes to those conclusions. That’s what Augustine did, and Calvin after him. Listen to modern day Calvinists defend their position - their arguments are purely philosophical with sprinkles of bible passages to make it seem biblical.

@iamthasecond 6 ай бұрын

@jackshadow325 Ok, but historical church figures aside, does double predestination defined as God electing certain people before time to spend eternity with him and also marking out certain people for eternal damnation accurately represent biblical theology? It seems to me that Ephesians 1, Romans 1, Romans 8, Romans 9, Jude, Proverbs 16, and Proverbs 20, along with pretty much the entire book of Job indicate God's sovereignty is so great that he controls every good and bad circumstance that occurs, and every person who does and doesn't spend eternity with him no?

@Sirkazzerino 5 ай бұрын

The author analogy to describe God is EXACTLY how I've described predestination for years. I also find it fascinating to continue arguing against "predestination" as a basic theological tenet, when Paul uses the EXACT word to describe our adoption into Christ's kingdom (eph 1:5)

@JS_Guitar09 Ай бұрын

That is referring to the method God chose to save us by. Not the Calvinist predestination.

@achristian11 8 ай бұрын

Thankfully Calvinism is not Biblical and it’s wrong! Praise Jesus Christ ❤

@SirMicahBroch 8 ай бұрын

Sure bud. Not like Calvin got his ideas from the Bible or anything...

@InquisitorJack 8 ай бұрын

Yeah! Calvin didn’t study and cite the Scriptures when making his theological claims, just made it up whole cloth!

@Commandosoap777 8 ай бұрын

@@SirMicahBrochJWs also do that this argument falls flat since many have twisted scripture before

@SirMicahBroch 8 ай бұрын

@@Commandosoap777 JW's actively change scripture to fit their own theology. Calvin did not.

@Commandosoap777 8 ай бұрын

@@SirMicahBrochhe did tho lol and his fan club today does too maybe not zoomer and his version of Calvinists but i seen multiple that flat out deny we have free will even tho the bible says the opposite

@zuffin1864 8 ай бұрын

Best video on this topic I've seen. Even with Jesus having paid for my sin, my nature since the fall is to be sinful, so I would still need God to change me to see the light of Jesus because I am by nature a sinner

@WolfingProgress 8 ай бұрын

I’m left more confused about predestination than I was coming into this video. Edit: Predestination is real.

@Lukemacleary 8 ай бұрын

Right? He's not making a great case.

@GreenGoblin107 8 ай бұрын

”For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?“ ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭15‬-‭24‬ ‭ESV‬‬ bible.com/bible/59/rom.9.15-24.ESV

@WolfingProgress 8 ай бұрын

@@GreenGoblin107 alright. I see where you’re coming from. Maybe I should attend a Calvinist church to learn more.

@disguisedcentennial835 8 ай бұрын

⁠@@GreenGoblin107 that verse cannot mean what you’re saying it means. In the context of Exodus 33:19, Moses freely asked God to go before him, then God replied he will, but because God chose to (and not to repay Moses for anything). It does indeed depend on God, because while we’ve reached our hand out, he’s under no innate obligation to take it. He put himself under an obligation by choice when he proclaimed all who reach their hand out will find it taken and themselves lifted up and away from the cliff.

@clay._. 8 ай бұрын

Don't worry, so are the Calvinists

@enzi_r9810 8 ай бұрын

I think it's another level of understanding to clearly understand our sinfulness to the poin we truly feel that it's right and just if God don't predestine salvation to some (maybe me). This really heart-breaking ngl.

@lmae8337 8 ай бұрын

So is predestination like this? Destined to live: 1) Born in a Christian house hold. They might have strayed away but someone in their life corrected them and they remain steadfast in faith. 2)Was born in a non-Christian country following a different religion but discovered Christ while abroad or on the internet. 3) Was born into a loveless household and later ended up in prison and found Christ before execution. Destined to die : 4)Was born into a Christian household . Later rejected Christ and died in Sin. 5) Born into a false religion and remain devoted to it. Died rejecting Christ.

@EliasRJr01 8 ай бұрын

Ask him about elect babies you’ll be even more disgusted 🤢

@DrGero15 8 ай бұрын

It's quote a bit worse than that actually. “Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” John Calvin's Institutes , Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7.

@Jupiter__001_ 8 ай бұрын

That's it. We are predestined by way of circumstance and our individual nature in our heart (e.g. two different people may be born under the same roof, but one turn to Christ because of his curiosity and desire for higher things, and the other turn away because of his worldliness.)

@a.39886 8 ай бұрын

123-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out. Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption. God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4@@DrGero15

@divan_dt 2 ай бұрын

I'm just so conflicted because this all makes sense but I've been watching content speaking against predestination and that also makes sense. From my perspective, a lot of the answers to the questions like whether God loves everyone in the predestination model just sounds like a bunch of rambling and word play. I cannot wrap my head around the fact that he loves everyone but doesn't give some people any chance to come to him at all. Like zero chance. Still a great video and made a lot of sense. Made my head hurt so thanks.

@Victoria_Loves_Jesus 8 ай бұрын

Calvinism is the most hopeless anti-gospel on the face of the planet. "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL men, especially of those that believe." 1 Tim 4:10

@iamthasecond 6 ай бұрын

It's the last statement in that verse that brings the Calvinist position home...

@Footrot13 8 ай бұрын

Thanks for the well put together and thoughtful explanation. It would be great to to see one on the “making God the author of sin” question as some well meaning and intelligent apologetic people are attacking reformed theology in this way.

@bun197 8 ай бұрын

why would God will someone to be out of love only to inevitably cut them off from him? it makes no sense unless they chose the separation

@tannerfjeld1046 8 ай бұрын

We did choose the separation from God in paradise adam is the father of us all

@scorpionjaxxer339 8 ай бұрын

@@tannerfjeld1046you missed the whole point, re read the comment. God Bless you and have a good day

@nefelibata263 8 ай бұрын

@@tannerfjeld1046 I did not choose anything. I am not Adam.

@laurentroland6847 7 ай бұрын

@@tannerfjeld1046 Ezekiel 18:20: The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

@scorpionjaxxer339 7 ай бұрын

@@tannerfjeld1046 you have a point but it doesn’t prove calvinism whatsoever

@Ana-yx9vu 3 ай бұрын

Hi, I just wanted to let my comment here. I was on a group to study the bible and learn more about Jesus. I didn't know the person that leaded the group was a Calvinist, which at the beginning I had no issue at all. I have to admit the discipline on the bible and the way to pray that I learned on this group it was amazing. But honestly at the end it left me more confused and disappointed. He mentioned that what he believed was that the humans we are on a total depravation. The ones who will be saved are choose by God only, so basically what I understood is that my family and people I care for are doomed, there is no other way they are saved if God did not choose them, and he said that all what I can do is to pray for them and request God to have mercy. Another stuff that really shocked me was that he basically said everything that is not in the bible or does not comes from God is from the devil. Other things that also were mentioned by him is that we should not ask God for protection because that's an offense, if we have the HOLY SPIRIT on us we shouldn't worried about it therefore we shouldn't ask for it. Other stuff he mentioned is that God doesn't listen to the sinners only the ones who obey him and are under the grace. If a person reads the bible and does not convert into Christianity is a demon. And something that he told me personally is that I was chosed by God and if did not repent, deny myself and follow God right now. God literally will drag me back to him and it wouldn't be nice, literally I would be forced . Honestly this whole thing shocked me, brought me down and made me feel really bad about myself. I honestly thought on stopping and quitting, but I decided to continue looking and start to learn more about the bible and Jesus. There were a lot of things that really made me question about God, his love, his salvation and about the religion. He also gave us the advise go don't go to Catholic and other Christian churches that does not follow this kind of believes as they are not for God anymore and they became herectic. On a point I really thought it was more of a sect than a community for God. The other thing is that on this group they mixed a lot the conspiracy theories with the religion. I know not all the Calvinist are like this, but I don't know how this person arrived to all these conclusions. Thanks for reading. I just wanted to share my personal experience.

@Commandosoap777 8 ай бұрын

The our father according to Calvinist : our father who predestined us i neither agree nor disagree with your judgement just as you predestined me to

@johnnydegiorgio 5 күн бұрын

This series is incredible bro! Thank you! 🔥

@DruckerYTA 8 ай бұрын

Great video as always

@MatthewPatel-hx4ci 8 ай бұрын

You were predestined to say that. Were all NPC'S!

@DruckerYTA 8 ай бұрын

@@MatthewPatel-hx4ci Was your pointless reply predestined too?

@MatthewPatel-hx4ci 8 ай бұрын

@@DruckerYTA Yes and your obvious question was answered too.😁

@JasonJrake 8 ай бұрын

Individualistic predestination is one of the worst ideas to survive the reformation. But I’ll still give you a thumbs up for not misrepresenting me us non-Calvinists. Few do these days. Thanks for being one of the “nice” Calvinists so that I can enjoy your other videos 😅.

@samuelcallai4209 8 ай бұрын

With all respect, it's astonishing how anyone can believe in Calvinism

@GreenGoblin107 8 ай бұрын

@samuelcallai4209 8 ай бұрын

@GreenGoblin107 I totally agree with that, literally. One doesn't need to be a calvinist for that. I'm molinist and agree with unconditional election.

@Troublechutor 7 ай бұрын

This might be the first explainer on Calvanism that didn't make them sound like lunatics that I've heard since I was a young man. Thank you! "If you could screw up God's plan, you would." - If you only knew...

@antoniopinheiro8485 8 ай бұрын

Btw, the Disney sequels are not canon

@5dszmusic 8 ай бұрын

I’m glad you finally made a video on this, if only for me to say that it is because of this doctrine I deconstructed my faith. Dodging the belief in absolute determinism is shady. If you want to be a true Calvinist (all five points, because if you drop one you have to start dropping more because they’re all intertwined) you have to accept that every r*pe, murder, death, torture, war, genocide, and abortion was pre ordained by God to happen. Meaning he “wrote it out” to happen that way before time began. Just because he KNOWS everything that will happen doesn’t mean he CAUSES it to happen. It’s insulting to the idea of a “loving” God and makes him the author of all evils that man commits.

@waffle5115 8 ай бұрын

"If you could screw up God's plan, you would." Even a worstie is so true twice a day.

@roneldell5137 8 ай бұрын

1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV) "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, *SPECIALLY* of those that believe."

@maxzation 8 ай бұрын

Still, I feel that Molinism explains everything better, and it has the best apologetics

@AntoRevanth 8 ай бұрын

I agree

@harrygarris6921 8 ай бұрын

Yeah it's more consistent with scripture but it's important not to assume that the more a theological system makes sense the more true it is. This is one of the easiest criticisms of Calvinism in the first place. God is not constrained by the human capacity for logic. Romans 11 is used so often to defend the doctrine of predestination but ironically the chapter ends by saying that God's judgements are "unsearchable" and that we cannot know the mind of God. We would do well to be wary of theologians who claim this knowledge.

@tomtemple69 8 ай бұрын

oh really? how does God know what a man who He hasn't even created will do in a situation? the man doesn't even exist with any attributes or desires yet Molinism is just the default position for people who can't stomach the truth of determinism...

@tomtemple69 8 ай бұрын

@@harrygarris6921 "Yeah it's more consistent with scripture but it's important not to assume that the more a theological system makes sense the more true it is." 1. it makes less sense than determinism 2. it's found NO WHERE in Scripture, it's a unbiblical system that is overlaid on the Bible, it's doing theology backwards

@Commandosoap777 8 ай бұрын

The enlightened centrist position

@glitchorange5351 Ай бұрын

God gives us FREE WILL 😊, People should stop thinking in their Logical way and start to trust in God's Logic, which is more than our reality.😊

@yafethtb 8 ай бұрын

So, does this mean when God gives a spirit to a fetus, He has already put a hardened heart on him/her so he/she cannot and would not choose to believe Jesus when he/she grows, whatever happens, and however he/she got evangelized?

@pgpython 5 ай бұрын

No predestination is in the end result. So if a person was hardened at birth but over time god softens that person to cause that accept God. The essence of it is that we are born in sin and by ourselves incapable of pleasing God. We need God to send his spirit and cause our hearts to accept Jesus. That's the predestination part. Now that could happen early on or it could happen in our senior years at ninety before we die. The point is it is God the father causing us to accept the son Jesus through his spirit which he predestined us before the foundation of the world.

@yafethtb 3 ай бұрын

@@pgpython So have God chosen who will be blessed by His Spirit before they are born? Because the elect term feels that way for me. My church is based on Reformed theology, but when I learn about this election, I can't help but ask this question. It feels like He elects whoever He likes and He sends His Spirit to them so they can understand God's words, repented, and then be saved. And He let the other babies that will never accept His words, because they are not His, become the path that will never grow any seeds dropped on it. How to reconcile these seemingly contradictory things?

@greenacresorganics7922 8 ай бұрын

Thank you for explaining the 5 points of Catharism.

@roneldell5137 8 ай бұрын

I used my Free Will to watch this video

@jeffallanday 5 ай бұрын

I actually did not want to watch this video so I am wondering why am I here watching it. Did God determine I watch it?

@simeonsmit6623 6 ай бұрын

I like R. C Sproul's take: Yes, we have free will... and we freely choose to sin!

@duppy9012 8 ай бұрын

What a terrifyingly sad outlook.

@Troublechutor 7 ай бұрын

I'm not sad... but I do worry for people.

@abenezerwallelign 6 ай бұрын

Woohoo!!! I am loved and the best part is that i ain't in control of that!!!

@ClaytonHatfield-do5mn 8 ай бұрын

Zoomer, did you read any of Aquinas' Summa article for this video? Your points read as paraphrases of Aquinas. If you haven't, I'd recommend you do, because Aquinas gives the clearest proof of predestination, as well as the compatibility of our free will and God's absolute sovereignty, that anybody could have written.

@redeemedzoomer6053 8 ай бұрын

I am aware of Thomas's view, it's the same as Infralapsarian Calvinism

@a.39886 8 ай бұрын

12-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out. Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption. God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4@@redeemedzoomer6053

@lifewasgiventous1614 3 ай бұрын

Man, how great this stumbling block is for me.

@fij715 8 ай бұрын

This means you don’t believe that God loves everyone. This means the Jesus suffering on the cross is meaningless. This means life is pointless. This can’t be Christianity.

@Yoran87935 8 ай бұрын

Where does he say Jesus suffering is meaningless? That people dont believe in Jesus is their own responsibility

@TemperedMedia 8 ай бұрын

I had a nice, long answer written out and then my browser crashed. Sadge

@shleepz 8 ай бұрын

The opposite means Christ can die for someone and they still go to he'll, that's also meaningless. God generally loves his creation but he specifically loves his sheep and dies for them. John 6, John 10

@DrGero15 8 ай бұрын

It's Calvinism. “Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” John Calvin's Institutes , Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7.

@fij715 8 ай бұрын

@@Yoran87935 If everyone is already saved or not saved the death of Jesus and His existence is pointless.

@Anthony_Ashbaugh 3 ай бұрын

So predestination doesn’t give you free will to come to Christ so you don’t have free will. But you had free will when you didn’t exist and Adam fell from grace? Bro what

@Holytuna1982 8 ай бұрын

I would argue Calvinism cannot be correct since the Bible on multiple occasions refutes the notion of Total Depravity. Jeremiah 18:1-10 being just one example. However, what I despise most about Calvinism is how it slanders the purely good nature of God. For instance, to say I am guilty because of Adam's sin is different than saying I acquire the consequences of his sin. If God held me guilty for what someone else did before I was born, while at the same time creating me in such a way that it was not in my power to reject sin and pick God, the act of God's creation would be one of evil and cruelty. Since God's grace is the only thing that can pull one from sin, if God creates creatures without sufficient grace, he would be acting more like the immoral pagan god Zeus, who could randomly cast lightning bolts on who he pleased. The true God is both completely good and just and should not be characterized as an evil tyrant.

@theonlylolking 7 ай бұрын

Your thought that it slanders the perfect goodness of God is literally the same thing as was stated in Romans 9. "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." And what was the response? "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." So you must reconcile that you are the pot that repliest AGAINST the Creator in Romans 9. "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" This is kind of humorous and sad that you are literally doing this and I bet you also even read Romans 9 which is just so interesting.

@LukasPorter1 7 ай бұрын

read roman’s 8-9 it reinforces total depravity so hard and it shows how biblical calvinism actually is ”For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.“ ‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭7‬-‭8‬ ‭ESV‬‬

@Troublechutor 7 ай бұрын

Job had his life destroyed BECAUSE he chose God. It was done to make a point. IIRC people died in the process... just to make a point about Job's choice. We benefit from this lesson at the great expense of Job, never-mind the people that died just to deepen his despair. I'm not sure if you would characterize that as "cruel" or not, but it would certainly feel cruel to Job. God did this, or he allowed it to be done. I don't know how to reconcile this against the idea that God does things we don't comprehend that seem cruel but have higher meaning or purpose. FWIW, Job did a lot of observing the "creator/created" dilemma he was in as well. Its possible to know that God's nature is purely good, and still not understand how these things we see as cruel could be allowed to happen. That's a path we all have to walk down at some point.

@heckinbasedandinkpilledoct7459 6 ай бұрын

@@LukasPorter1how can you give someone a law that they can’t keep? Calvinism is absurd

@pgpython 5 ай бұрын

@@heckinbasedandinkpilledoct7459that's the point of the gospel. None of us can keep God's laws by ourselves. Our default supposition is to suppose that in our own strength we can meet God's laws but we can't keep God's laws and is futile to suppose we can. We need to be made new with a new heart to obey God but only God can do that. It's not something that anyone can contribute towards. The problem is that our default state is to try and please God by ourselves which put us under the law which leads to death.

@markbrotherson 8 ай бұрын

Love all your videos!!

@MacRiocaird 8 ай бұрын

Why would God choose to create sentient beings and have them suffer for all eternity?

@rinnegan111 8 ай бұрын

I struggle to mentally accept predestination because of this. but if God has meticulously created every individual, knowing exactly what environment he will have them grow up in and with what personality. Knowing that because of a combination of circumstances and personality they will never get a chance to know God truly. How is this person any different than someone being predestined to hell. I guess my opinion is free will isn’t really that free when our upbringing influences our thoughts and decisions and if God controls those factors isn’t he already creating people with no hope in choosing him?

@theonlylolking 7 ай бұрын

Read Romans 9. It answers your exact question. "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

@Troublechutor 7 ай бұрын

Why would sentient beings, knowing the options, choose anything other than salvation?

@mitchwatson6787 7 ай бұрын

@@Troublechutor have you ever spoken to a person before?? 🤣 We can rationalise anything

@heckinbasedandinkpilledoct7459 6 ай бұрын

@@theonlylolkingsounds like a demon, honestly 🤮🤮🤧

@robpetry84 8 ай бұрын

Good explanation brother. I go to a Presbyterian church in the EPC. Just ordered 4 Presbyterian stickers from your shop. Make some shirts!

@richardmcduffie-nt9lk 8 ай бұрын

Were the sequels predestined to be terrible?

@prodigy1979 4 ай бұрын

Calvinism makes the most sense to me since quite some time now. I am 100% depending on God and I rejoice in it.

@danielsuttles7452 8 ай бұрын

So I have some serious questions Please, no arguing but I would love all of your input What is it called? If you believe that God doesn’t know THE future. But /every possible/future, and that your choices, existentially affect the world around you and therefore the future. Not to say that God is not ultimately in control, but that he has relinquished like 95% of it to either Chance or human involvement (evil) And is there any biblical proof of that?

@Barri-rj9vt 8 ай бұрын

It's called Open Theism. Haven't studied it much, but seems ridiculous on first impression.

@danielsuttles7452 8 ай бұрын

@@Barri-rj9vt hmmmmm thanks for the input 😁

@Quin_BNK 8 ай бұрын

I believe so. As if you closed a jar with soil, plants, and water and made it a closed, automanaged (eco)system.

@audreyc3398 8 ай бұрын

We actually talked about this not too long ago in one of my classes. I'm definitely not going to do it justice, but I'll try to go over what we talked about. That idea sounds like Open Theism, which is a response to the challenge between God's Omniscience (all-knowingness) and man's free will. Open Theism is the idea that: - There are no true propositions about the future because it doesn't exist yet - God doesn't know about the future (because the future doesn't exist yet) - God is just really good at predicting human behaviour Therefore, God is omniscient and man still has free will There are some very problematic implications of Open Theism such as: - God makes promises/covenants, but if he doesn't *know* the future, then He is either: a) lying - which God cannot do b) predicting - but since there are no truth values for the future, what for sure guarantee do we have that it will come to pass - the above, could arguably result in a), because God explicitly promises something c) the future is locked when God decrees that [insert thing] will come to pass - therefore no more free will (or limited free will), among other things - the above seemingly defeats the purpose of Open Theism, which, as you recall, tries to make sense of God's Omniscience and Free Will. - The Principle of Alternate Possibilities is another response to Omniscience vs free will (similar to Open Theism); it states that a person is morally responsible for what he has done only if he could have done otherwise; it could be applied to the above in order to resolve some of the free will/future locked tension I am in no way an expert on this, feel free to correct me if I didn't say something right or if I left out something important I think something more along the lines of what C.S. Lewis described in Mere Christianity (The chapter called Time Beyond Time), where God sees all of time because He exists outside of time, but that doesn't affect our free will any more than if He were just observing the present moment kzbin.info/www/bejne/mYeQeneNj52pj9U

@danielsuttles7452 8 ай бұрын

@@audreyc3398 bro you’re gonna ask me to correct a dang essay !!! I am a dumb dumb and I’m thankful for any advice I can get thank you 🙏 Your input/opinion is infinitely valuable to me.

@micahyoung5229 Ай бұрын

predestination is crazy town coocoo bananas. gods not gonna predestine people to hell. he gives you the choice to choose life and if you dont wanna believe in christ than you choose the world

@TheOtherCaleb 8 ай бұрын

Every Christian believes in predestination my brother. Even the most liberal of liberal humanists during the late reformation believed in predestination. Predestination is not the same thing as predestinarianism.

@ralfbo685 8 ай бұрын

Predestination is not determinism

@TheOtherCaleb 8 ай бұрын

@@ralfbo685Correct. Predestination is just a Christian doctrine with numerous interpretations.

@DaneSchieferHome 8 ай бұрын

What is the source material for St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine?

@Motosapien46 8 ай бұрын

It'd be interesting if you did a video on theories of atonement that talked about the non forensic views. The idea that "sin" is a legal problem seems to cause more issues than it resolves.

@mgraysonhay 8 ай бұрын

And yet, the Bible constantly talks about forgiveness of sin in legal terms such as “justification.”

@Motosapien46 8 ай бұрын

@@mgraysonhay there's actually a pretty interesting history of how so many Latin legal terms were roped into use. Mostly because tradition says Latin was the language of theologically smart people. The funny thing is that Paul, the one most attributed with heavy theological language, never used terms like propitiation, expiation, vicarious atonement, etc. He used terms like "set right" and "kept right", only using a legal sense to reach the audience which was used to a legal system. Look at Jesus and what He said it takes to be saved, no legal language at all! It's all about trust and having a changed heart.

@mgraysonhay 8 ай бұрын

@@Motosapien46 …except those terms are all over his epistles…and the epistles of the other apostles as well. Are you doubting the inspiration of the words of the Apostle Paul and others who used such language?

@Motosapien46 8 ай бұрын

@@mgraysonhay I'm saying Paul didn't speak Latin so he never used the word justification... He spoke Greek. Even so, the meaning of justification today doesn't mean what it meant originally. Justification wasn't a legal payment. Justification was setting things right like the way when you use MS Word and you justify the paragraph to the left, right or center.

@mgraysonhay 8 ай бұрын

@@Motosapien46 lol I’ve never heard the term “justify” used in that context, like ever. But since you discredit what Paul says, what about Jesus when He says He who does not believe on the Son is *“condemned already?”* (John 3:18) Is that not legal language right there?