Promising Pitch Falls Apart After Shocking Revelation | Dragons' Den

Prior to even pitching the Dragons, budding retail entrepreneur Ellen Green made it apparent that she was looking to win backing from Touker Suleyman on the grounds that she and the fashion mogul had “clear synergies”. Green did go on to secure an offer from Suleyman but ultimately walked away empty-handed…
An international sensation, Dragon's Den features entrepreneurs pitching for investment in the Den from our Dragons, five venture capitalists willing to invest their own money in exchange for equity.
#DragonsDen #BrandUK #OffShore

[@bluebadgeco1346]

Wow! The video of my 2016 Dragons Den pitch has resurfaced :) Reading all your thoughts and comments has been great. I’m very proud to say, 6 years on, Blue Badge Co is thriving. We still design and handmake our products in the UK. We have a strong team and continue to employ people with limited work options. Making our products in the UK is still a big part of what we know makes our brand special. Our commitment to ethically sourcing and manufacturing products means we don’t produce lots of surplus stock and offcuts are donated to reduce waste, I can’t say this would be the case if production had moved offshore. Not taking the offer was the right decision for me and the company. Dragons Den was a nerve-racking but brilliant experience and I’m grateful for the opportunity which really helped the business grow and secure further investment - Ellen x

[@ellengreen2971]

Green&Heath is our new luxury lifestyle brand, made in the UK :) Supporting UK manufacturing, which we need now more than ever.

[@federicapitzeri3571]

That was an awesome pitch and you showed them your numbers Ellen! 🎉

[@Chloe-oq3ug]

The only blue badge wallets I ever buy! You have such lovely stuff and it lasts so well

[@Mogamishu]

And yet you made the classical schoolgirl error of revealing who your preferred investor is, which seriously hurt your presentation and ruined your chances of getting an investment. Your inexperience was painful to watch.

[@Mogamishu]

@@ellengreen2971 you actually responded to your own comment from a different account?

[@royfr8136]

Never say you prefer a certain dragon... it hurts their huge egos.

[@fsu3941]

yeah basically they want to have the last say. so they say IM OUT rather than letting the person pick their choice first.

[@redrobiin]

Unlees it's Peter or Deborah it's ok lol

[@PhilosophyofElivagar]

9/10 I'd agree they act like petulant children, but I'd say that this case was needlessly rude.

[@xeox4280]

Dragon? You mean pig

[@noahshipman3564]

Yeah but it also ruins your chances of negotiation. Your first choice dragon obviously isn't going to budge once they know that you want them

[@jinaabaapsabkabaap6342]

Tip.. do not tell deborah your preffered dragon isn't deborah. She is a real life DRAGON.

[@franciscolaurean8550]

Don't think it's just Deborah that feels that way you shoot yourself in the foot by taking everyone else out of the equation

[@MegadetH666ksa]

@@franciscolaurean8550 you shoot yourself..... in the food????

[@franciscolaurean8550]

@@MegadetH666ksa oh must had hit wrong key on accident lol

[@MitchellTF]

Offer her a princess as a snack

[@starsigngirl9789]

I’ve allways fancied her she is the dragon 😂

[@miyolinux]

Deborah's actual reason for changing her mind was hearing that Touker was her preferred Dragon...

[@jamiesmusic]

She's a child, always is

[@chintoki]

Pretty much.

[@martinhill8896]

Pretends to be this compassionate person on twitter but her ego is out of control. Her constant patronising shaking of the head is horrible.

[@boykhan22]

Debra is racist

[@TheKING-il3dx]

Thats her ego.

[@Bondek1996]

Deborah's face...If only Duncan had been there, his eye roll would knock Earth out of orbit.

[@sammyleet03]

Brilliant 🤣🤣🤣

[@Fiskie666]

Hahaha :D

[@benwpersonal]

Never tell a dragon that they are the one you wanted over the others - noob mistake

[@yebo-gogo]

It's so silly, yet you see lots of entrepreneurs do that all the time. By showing your hand you're severely crippling your ability to negotiate. While removing competition by making the rest of the big egos mad. It's a classic schoolboy error

[@bluceree7312]

@@yebo-gogo I understand it may not be strategically a good tactic to disclose the favorite investor but by god the dragons can be drama queens sometimes. If they like and really want the product/business they won't bat an eye when someone does that, they'll sell their own mothers to get the deal.

[@SpyroTek]

@@bluceree7312 Someone told Sara Davies she was 2nd choice behind Debra and she took it on the chin and was still happy to invest.

[@bluceree7312]

@@SpyroTek Yeah, I remember that one. Sara is the coolest and would have invested in this Blue Badge too, and made it great.

[@SpyroTek]

@@bluceree7312 Definitely. I wonder if Debra cares more about being on TV than she does the actual investments.

[@adhc8560]

She was doing so well - great presentation, knew her figures, very personable - why did she have to go and tell Deborah and Nick they were the second choice? That was a dumb mistake.

[@helenaville5939]

It also handed immense power to Touka. Fatal mistake.

[@flare90]

Yeah 😔 she probably regrets it the minute it came out her mouth.

[@skoumastv]

Its called honesty and its what God likes. Usually dyslectic people are called lile this by society because they are honest

[@garybuttherissilent5896]

@@skoumastv huh? dyslectic doesn't mean autistic ya goof

[@tylerberry5704]

I think she was incredibly brave for declining Touker’s offer instead of just folding like many entrepreneurs do

[@torguy5763]

That's pretty dumb of her, she claims he's her favorite Dragon, yet she doesn't know he is known for taking things overseas. Then to add insult to injury the fact that she singles him out as her favorite Dragon is just asking for no deals.

[@ry6222]

Dyslexia for ya lol

[@shock2311]

@@ry6222 What does dyslexia have to do with it?

[@davidholt9388]

Did she want the money or did she want publicity, shes switched on ,might of been her plan .

[@glutton8055]

@@ry6222 dyslexia doesn’t make you retarded

[@Fiskie666]

I think it was on purpose. She didn't seem upset at all. She was just there for publicity.

[@HighTen_Melanie]

As a blue badge holder due to being in a wheelchair I can confirm these wallets are a waste of money. They slip down the dashboard.. not easy to rescue with limited use of my arms! The best one I’ve found is a metal locking device that is secured by a bike lock wire via your steering wheel. You don’t have to over reach, it’s displayed on the dashboard and it’s secure.

[@getin3949]

I agree and why do you need yet another piece of kit to have either slide off the dash or off of the seat or if you drive a truck like I do, fall out of the door pocket? We in the U.S. have to display our tags on the mirror so they wouldn't even work here anyway.

[@shanethesaiyan511]

I had the metal locking device and the blue badges still got stolen. Someone broke into my car and bent the metal and smashed the plastic covering on top and stole them. I cancelled the badges straight after but its still unfortunate that the device didnt save me paying for a broken window ha

[@HighTen_Melanie]

@@shanethesaiyan511 Blimey! That’s crazy!

[@Tim_3100]

I have one bought from eBay its pretty good never slides even if i forget to take it off dashboard when coming down out of carpark. but i know some are not good but ethierway its better than not having a holder at as most council's don't give a cover anymore.

[@Tim_3100]

@@shanethesaiyan511 that sucks its pretty good around my area thankfully.

[@jenbeulke6395]

She absolutely blew that pitch the minute she told them she had a preferred dragon.. Blew that big time

[@sailorman8668]

Thanks so much for pointing out the obvious, lol.

[@jenbeulke6395]

@@sailorman8668 aren’t you a ray of sunshine

[@sailorman8668]

Yep.

[@JazzyMarineVet]

Telling Tuka he is your fav dragon is like being in a dance club and you walk over to a group of girls and ask the pretties/finest girl in the group to dance. When she turns you down, the other girls automatically turn you down for asking the other girls first. DUH

[@buckethead133]

That sucks 🥲 I can relate to that.

[@lukegale7812]

Better to be rejected by the honey. Imagine being rejected by the ugly one

[@Kelsey1994]

@@lukegale7812 that’s awful. I bet you’re single.

[@lukegale7812]

@@Kelsey1994 It was a joke. Who is rating these girls as prettiest to ugliest anyway

[@Kelsey1994]

@@lukegale7812 there are nicer synonyms. Even just least attractive still implies they're attractive just not to you or compared to the most attractive. I admit I overreacted when replying initially tho lol idk what I was annoyed about irl that made your comment trigger me lmao my bad 😅😂

[@StorytellerDan]

Such crybabies - The valuation is too high... So what? Doesn´t stop you making an offer. - Made in the UK does NOT mean it can´t be exported to places throughout the world. - Waaaah, waaah, I wasn´t your number one choice. So what? A lot of us didn´t get picked 1st at soccer practice etc.

[@sirhenrysimmerson9385]

The made in UK was the only thing that sounded good

[@jennamilleryall]

I really like that the Dragons weren't able to strong arm her into giving up more equity than she was willing to part with.

[@scootsmcgoots]

You see it time and time again. The person pitching makes a claim that he/she has a favourite dragon, which is such a bad mistake. Not only for the obvious reason that the others' delicate egos are insulted and they are alienated but then the preferred dragon cranks up the greed and the percentage skyrockets because the remaining dragon realises they have no more competition. Puts the ball entirely in their court and removes any real negotiation power from the person pitching. These dragons are greedy vultures and out for blood.

[@alexharrison2743]

You could say they're like gold-hoarding dragons

[@BeastTheMadness]

I mean it felt a bit like "ok as long as it's Touker we can go off shore" but then when others pointed it out she started to backtrack. Knowing how much they do care about UK made stuff that was a big mistake. And just made her look not sure about her vision/not genuine 🤔

[@diana-pn2hu]

Update: Received another offer outside the den. Apparently turnover increased by 50% over 3 years

[@KENDYKICKSLONDON]

Shuuuut uuup!!

[@caitlinlindsay8418]

Then the business dissolved 🙃

[@diana-pn2hu]

@@caitlinlindsay8418 thanks. Link?

[@HighTen_Melanie]

@@caitlinlindsay8418 The Blue badge company is very much still alive and kicking. It won’t let me leave a link but you can look them up.

[@lukegale7812]

@@caitlinlindsay8418 Mong

[@thejuiceweasel]

Classic Touker. Basically, take the percentage the entrepreneur came for, double it and add 20 to get a Touker offer.

[@centralprocessingunit4988]

toxic

[@pimpozza]

Nothing like a good ole *SPOILER* in the title! They do this too often.. 🙄 Edit: They since changed it to a slightly less spoiler title 🤭

[@socialjusticewarrior2316]

worst title of all time.

[@DragonsDenGlobal]

What's wrong with the title? ☕️

[@socialjusticewarrior2316]

@@DragonsDenGlobal it is a spoiler... it lets us know what the end result is before we have watched it

[@pimpozza]

@@socialjusticewarrior2316 They changed it and now ask what's wrong with it!

[@eskmob1960]

@@DragonsDenGlobal is that you jenny?

[@Jordothecat98]

“Specializes in offshoring” I think might be the most brutal burn of a dragon I’ve ever seen

[@rohilthomson]

As much of an insult as telling the sky that it's blue. Touker always talks about his contacts in China, he never hides them and brings them up as a positive point actually. He's not some pseudo-moral philanthropist and doesn't pretend to be one.

[@TheLocalLt]

@@rohilthomson in the current climate he will soon be moving them to India it’s fair to say

[@mesushantmt]

The narrator addressed him “Offshore Supremo” 😂

[@jasontownsend9460]

I like how touker just owned it too. Based

[@palepro3511]

Alternative title: Jenny uses her Telekinesis powers to influence all dragons to be out.

[@technoshaman001]

Lol

[@human1414]

Telepathic *

[@eh4372]

I wonder what the outcome will be ?

[@pimpozza]

Hnmm.. who can tell.. nothing given away in the title, Erkay 🙃

[@antonydandrea]

As soon as she said Touker was her preferred dragon and also she wanted to keep in the UK, even I know he does things abroad!!

[@DesertObserver491]

It's probably her first time negotiating with multiple major investors and that too while being recorded for TV so in that pressure situation, in my view it's an honest error to have slipped up (specifying your preferred dragon) but no harm discussing a possible deal with Touker which Nick was aghast about (even though T indicated offshoring, she likely wouldn't have settled for it post-deal) and the other two just pulled out due to hurt ego. In the end, I'm glad she stuck to her boundaries and turned down the remaining offer (and the other deals looked weak too), she's definitely capable of managing without them.

[@zydhas2838]

The narrator tries to make it seem particular, but great/solid business--> dragons are partial to it--> valuation is seen as ludicrous--> someone makes an offer for an even more ludicrous amount of equity---> Deborah takes back her offer because she feels offended (but claims the reason is because the person is lacking in integrity): is a formulae for about a third of all DD pitches

[@DavidSmith-oy4of]

I think you're overvaluing that.

[@imalwaysright1408]

You make a solid argument with lots of potential. Unfortunately, you abbreviated Dragons Den, and for that reason I’m out

[@topsupp]

Wow. I can't believe she left with no money after that pitch!

[@technoshaman001]

Yeah eh

[@Jessica7318]

- Sometimes a dragon will say: "You're asking for a small amount of money, it's not enough to compete in this market place, I wish you luck, but I'm out." - Other times they'll say: "If you'd asked for a smaller amount of money, I might think: 'this is worth a punt' but at this amount of money, it's just too rich of a valuation, so I'm going to be out on this one. - Sometimes a dragon will say: "If I invest in something, I need to be passionate about the idea, and I need to know enough about it. I don't know anything about this market place so I'm going to be out." - Other times a dragon will say: "I don't know a lot about this market place, but that's alright. Because you're very good! I believe YOU have done your homework and you've got a good head on your shoulders so I very much want to invest in YOU." - Sometimes a dragon will say: "Good pitch, nice little business here, solid numbers. Unfortunately, I'm invested in a similar company, so I'm afraid I'm conflicted out of this investment. I can't back another company that may end up competing with my pre-existing investment." - Other times a dragon will say: "I'm actually invested in this space. I've gone through this journey with a few other entrepreneurs. So I am the ideal investor for you. I know what pitfalls you're about to run into and the obstacles ahead. I can save you a lot of time and money and help you navigate what's coming. So I'm going to make you an offer..." etc. Very often, we as viewers watch this show and we root for the entrepreneur. This isn't a bad thing, but we can find ourselves thinking that if their pitch is good, if their numbers are good, and they make a good impression, we believe they 'deserve' investment. When the dragons don't invest, we find it unfair or we feel the entrepreneur got screwed. The dragons look at this a different way. - A dragon may see a good pitch, but think to themselves: "There is a good chance a 'better' pitch comes in the next 5, 10, 20 minutes, next hour, etc. I'm going to save my money and not take a go on this one. - A dragon may see a pitch where the entrepreneur is struggling, and see a chance for a great play. "I can get a great stake in this company at one hell of a bargain because they're desperate. It won't take much effort on my part, I have the contacts, if it works, I'll make a killing, if it doesn't, it cost me pennies on the dollar to take the gamble. Why not." - A dragon may see a pitch that simply grabs them entirely. It's a pitch in a sector the dragon knows well, the dragon loves the numbers, the deal makes sense. They make an offer because if they don't get it, they will actually feel a sense of loss that they didn't get the deal. Other times, the dragon makes an offer that is so good by the numbers that if they get it, they feel they made a great deal. If they don't get it and someone else gets the deal, they don't mind. "I'd make you an offer, but... this needs a lot of work. A lot of work. I'd need 50% for that money." - And when the entrepreneur asks if they'll go less, they explain that no, no they won't. So if another dragon comes in and says they'll do it for 40%, this dragon doesn't mind because the other dragon may have an easier time with the investment. - Kevin O'Leary in the American Shark Tank has told entrepreneurs before: "You have a take it or leave it offer on the table." and he's outright told them: "It's worth this because this is what I want, and this is what I can do for you. If you say yes, we'll get to work today. If you say no, you go back out those doors, you're dead to me. Someone else will come in with an idea, take my deal, become extremely successful, go on to do great and wonderful things. But not you. So... the choice is yours." heh. This can sound extreme, and even seem like bullying, but the dragons don't have infinite money. We can see hundreds of pitches, but they don't have the time for hundreds of investments each. - Sometimes a deal is not taken, because while it's good... it's not great. And the dragons wait for something great. You'll recognize lines such as: "Ooou. There's a battle between my heart and my head here. On this one I'm out." or "This is a good business. It's a good one for you. I just feel it's a little small for me at the moment, so I wish you all the best but I'll be out on this one." - Sometimes a deal is not taken because it's just bad. The dragons can point out where it's bad. Lines such as: "Your valuation is crazy." or "Your product doesn't solve a problem." or "You have a good product, but a terrible business." or even: "I'm just not excited by it. There's no wow factor here for me. I have to be passionate if I get involved. So I'll be out this time." etc. There's a lot that goes into a dragon's consideration of investment. And sometimes the entrepreneurs can get unlucky. A dragon may be willing to take a punt on their pitch, or not. A dragon may like the idea that they have a similar investment, and want to back this one too... or they may say they don't want to back this 'because' they have that other business in a similar space. A dragon may say that they trust the entrepreneur's knowledge of the industry, and will back them because they like them. Or the dragon may say that no matter how great the entrepreneur seems to be, they (the dragon) just don't know enough about the industry, so they'll be out. Oou, here's one you may have heard too: "You've got a great business here, a fantastic product. The dragon to my left is actually the perfect investor for you, so I'm going to go out and leave the floor to them." or "Investor X here is an ideal investor for you, and they have just gone out. So that's an easy decision for me. For whatever eason they didn't like it... I won't like it... I'm going to go out but wish you all the best." The more deals a dragon takes the less time they have to devote to the next deals they take. Some deals will take a great deal of time from their schedule, others might be quicker investments with a little up front work but then not much in the follow-up letting them focus on something else. Sometimes the enemy of great is good. And sometimes deals are refused because the numbers don't make sense, or the product seems underwhelming. While those are the easiest instances for viewers to relate to and understand; there's so much more that goes through a dragon's mind when deciding if they want to back an entrepreneur standing in front of them there and now.

[@human1414]

@@Jessica7318 tldr??

[@TboneSteak1992]

Spoiler

[@DreamBelief]

My issue is, as a person who uses disabled parking, I really don't see a use for this at all. You don't carry your parking permit around with you everywhere!

[@ItsEllaBella]

Thanks for spoiling the video by titleing it "How on Earth did she walk out with no money" 🙄

[@naiboz]

She doesn’t need a dragon to be fair

[@TheKING-il3dx]

Exactly

[@victoriaknapp7475]

She’s just there to advertise that’s all.

[@yagovich8473]

Enjoyed watching Deborah's face go all uncomfortable as she was left out of the discussion and then exiting under the pretence of Nick's reason for exiting.

[@alexdavis5766]

I have one of these and love it. Had it for 7-8 years and still going strong. Recommend them to all friends/ family who own them.

[@robstrains8711]

She walked out with no money because you had Debra Medan throwing her dummy out of the cot as usual and the rest being over the top greedy.

[@Jessica7318]

- Sometimes a dragon will say: "You're asking for a small amount of money, it's not enough to compete in this market place, I wish you luck, but I'm out." - Other times they'll say: "If you'd asked for a smaller amount of money, I might think: 'this is worth a punt' but at this amount of money, it's just too rich of a valuation, so I'm going to be out on this one. - Sometimes a dragon will say: "If I invest in something, I need to be passionate about the idea, and I need to know enough about it. I don't know anything about this market place so I'm going to be out." - Other times a dragon will say: "I don't know a lot about this market place, but that's alright. Because you're very good! I believe YOU have done your homework and you've got a good head on your shoulders so I very much want to invest in YOU." - Sometimes a dragon will say: "Good pitch, nice little business here, solid numbers. Unfortunately, I'm invested in a similar company, so I'm afraid I'm conflicted out of this investment. I can't back another company that may end up competing with my pre-existing investment." - Other times a dragon will say: "I'm actually invested in this space. I've gone through this journey with a few other entrepreneurs. So I am the ideal investor for you. I know what pitfalls you're about to run into and the obstacles ahead. I can save you a lot of time and money and help you navigate what's coming. So I'm going to make you an offer..." etc. Very often, we as viewers watch this show and we root for the entrepreneur. This isn't a bad thing, but we can find ourselves thinking that if their pitch is good, if their numbers are good, and they make a good impression, we believe they 'deserve' investment. When the dragons don't invest, we find it unfair or we feel the entrepreneur got screwed. The dragons look at this a different way. - A dragon may see a good pitch, but think to themselves: "There is a good chance a 'better' pitch comes in the next 5, 10, 20 minutes, next hour, etc. I'm going to save my money and not take a go on this one. - A dragon may see a pitch where the entrepreneur is struggling, and see a chance for a great play. "I can get a great stake in this company at one hell of a bargain because they're desperate. It won't take much effort on my part, I have the contacts, if it works, I'll make a killing, if it doesn't, it cost me pennies on the dollar to take the gamble. Why not." - A dragon may see a pitch that simply grabs them entirely. It's a pitch in a sector the dragon knows well, the dragon loves the numbers, the deal makes sense. They make an offer because if they don't get it, they will actually feel a sense of loss that they didn't get the deal. Other times, the dragon makes an offer that is so good by the numbers that if they get it, they feel they made a great deal. If they don't get it and someone else gets the deal, they don't mind. "I'd make you an offer, but... this needs a lot of work. A lot of work. I'd need 50% for that money." - And when the entrepreneur asks if they'll go less, they explain that no, no they won't. So if another dragon comes in and says they'll do it for 40%, this dragon doesn't mind because the other dragon may have an easier time with the investment. - Kevin O'Leary in the American Shark Tank has told entrepreneurs before: "You have a take it or leave it offer on the table." and he's outright told them: "It's worth this because this is what I want, and this is what I can do for you. If you say yes, we'll get to work today. If you say no, you go back out those doors, you're dead to me. Someone else will come in with an idea, take my deal, become extremely successful, go on to do great and wonderful things. But not you. So... the choice is yours." heh. This can sound extreme, and even seem like bullying, but the dragons don't have infinite money. We can see hundreds of pitches, but they don't have the time for hundreds of investments each. - Sometimes a deal is not taken, because while it's good... it's not great. And the dragons wait for something great. You'll recognize lines such as: "Ooou. There's a battle between my heart and my head here. On this one I'm out." or "This is a good business. It's a good one for you. I just feel it's a little small for me at the moment, so I wish you all the best but I'll be out on this one." - Sometimes a deal is not taken because it's just bad. The dragons can point out where it's bad. Lines such as: "Your valuation is crazy." or "Your product doesn't solve a problem." or "You have a good product, but a terrible business." or even: "I'm just not excited by it. There's no wow factor here for me. I have to be passionate if I get involved. So I'll be out this time." etc. There's a lot that goes into a dragon's consideration of investment. And sometimes the entrepreneurs can get unlucky. A dragon may be willing to take a punt on their pitch, or not. A dragon may like the idea that they have a similar investment, and want to back this one too... or they may say they don't want to back this 'because' they have that other business in a similar space. A dragon may say that they trust the entrepreneur's knowledge of the industry, and will back them because they like them. Or the dragon may say that no matter how great the entrepreneur seems to be, they (the dragon) just don't know enough about the industry, so they'll be out. Oou, here's one you may have heard too: "You've got a great business here, a fantastic product. The dragon to my left is actually the perfect investor for you, so I'm going to go out and leave the floor to them." or "Investor X here is an ideal investor for you, and they have just gone out. So that's an easy decision for me. For whatever eason they didn't like it... I won't like it... I'm going to go out but wish you all the best." The more deals a dragon takes the less time they have to devote to the next deals they take. Some deals will take a great deal of time from their schedule, others might be quicker investments with a little up front work but then not much in the follow-up letting them focus on something else. Sometimes the enemy of great is good. And sometimes deals are refused because the numbers don't make sense, or the product seems underwhelming. While those are the easiest instances for viewers to relate to and understand; there's so much more that goes through a dragon's mind when deciding if they want to back an entrepreneur standing in front of them there and now.

[@ASY2311]

I mean... She definitely fucked it up. Came across as rather foolish in stating she preferred Touker but then agreeing with Nick that offshore was out of the question (despite seemingly discussing it with Touker), and subsequently then turning Touker down for that reason.

[@Jessica7318]

​@@ASY2311 Hello Alec. Mentioning a preferred dragon is certainly a risk for entrepreneurs. On the one hand, the specialized nature of the dragons makes certain potential partnerships 'no-brainers' An example would be Canada's dragons den where Jim Treliving (Boston Pizza) was essentially a favorite for anyone coming in pitching a food product. Arlene Dickenson specialized in 'marketing' and Robert Herjavec specialized in 'security'. These dragons slip into niches where they're associated with a certain business element. Kevin O'Leary for instance has always been associated with financial institutions. With 5 dragons you pitch to, you certainly run the risk of alienating 4 by picking 1. You amplify the chance that that 1 may be interested however. (And that's the thought behind it) but if that one dragon is interested, you don't often have to 'say' that it's the dragon you want. It's fairly implied. If you 'say it' it puts the other dragons in a tough spot. I'd also point out it's different if a dragon asks you who your preferred dragon is. In this case, she volunteered it without it being asked of her. Sometimes you'll see the dragons gauge the entrepreneur's interest by asking who they want. Part of what looked so foolish for this entrepreneur is how quickly she flip-flops.She seems like she's floundering saying whatever might preserve any given dragon's chance of investing.

[@hugoschkiglitz]

These Dragons can be super inconsistent tho.. I think a lot of time the reasons they give for declaring themselves out is complete BS. Literally just watched a gin business pitch before this where Deborah declared herself out because the valuation was too high. In this pitch she had no problem rearranging the valuation with an offer

[@Jessica7318]

This is true Hugo, but there are a lot of things that go into a Dragon's analysis of a business. For instance: - Sometimes a dragon will say: "You're asking for a small amount of money, it's not enough to compete in this market place, I wish you luck, but I'm out." - Other times they'll say: "If you'd asked for a smaller amount of money, I might think: 'this is worth a punt' but at this amount of money, it's just too rich of a valuation, so I'm going to be out on this one. - Sometimes a dragon will say: "If I invest in something, I need to be passionate about the idea, and I need to know enough about it. I don't know anything about this market place so I'm going to be out." - Other times a dragon will say: "I don't know a lot about this market place, but that's alright. Because you're very good! I believe YOU have done your homework and you've got a good head on your shoulders so I very much want to invest in YOU." - Sometimes a dragon will say: "Good pitch, nice little business here, solid numbers. Unfortunately, I'm invested in a similar company, so I'm afraid I'm conflicted out of this investment. I can't back another company that may end up competing with my pre-existing investment." - Other times a dragon will say: "I'm actually invested in this space. I've gone through this journey with a few other entrepreneurs. So I am the ideal investor for you. I know what pitfalls you're about to run into and the obstacles ahead. I can save you a lot of time and money and help you navigate what's coming. So I'm going to make you an offer..." etc. Very often, we as viewers watch this show and we root for the entrepreneur. This isn't a bad thing, but we can find ourselves thinking that if their pitch is good, if their numbers are good, and they make a good impression, we believe they 'deserve' investment. When the dragons don't invest, we find it unfair or we feel the entrepreneur got screwed. The dragons look at this a different way. - A dragon may see a good pitch, but think to themselves: "There is a good chance a 'better' pitch comes in the next 5, 10, 20 minutes, next hour, etc. I'm going to save my money and not take a go on this one. - A dragon may see a pitch where the entrepreneur is struggling, and see a chance for a great play. "I can get a great stake in this company at one hell of a bargain because they're desperate. It won't take much effort on my part, I have the contacts, if it works, I'll make a killing, if it doesn't, it cost me pennies on the dollar to take the gamble. Why not." - A dragon may see a pitch that simply grabs them entirely. It's a pitch in a sector the dragon knows well, the dragon loves the numbers, the deal makes sense. They make an offer because if they don't get it, they will actually feel a sense of loss that they didn't get the deal. Other times, the dragon makes an offer that is so good by the numbers that if they get it, they feel they made a great deal. If they don't get it and someone else gets the deal, they don't mind. "I'd make you an offer, but... this needs a lot of work. A lot of work. I'd need 50% for that money." - And when the entrepreneur asks if they'll go less, they explain that no, no they won't. So if another dragon comes in and says they'll do it for 40%, this dragon doesn't mind because the other dragon may have an easier time with the investment. - Kevin O'Leary in the American Shark Tank has told entrepreneurs before: "You have a take it or leave it offer on the table." and he's outright told them: "It's worth this because this is what I want, and this is what I can do for you. If you say yes, we'll get to work today. If you say no, you go back out those doors, you're dead to me. Someone else will come in with an idea, take my deal, become extremely successful, go on to do great and wonderful things. But not you. So... the choice is yours." heh. This can sound extreme, and even seem like bullying, but the dragons don't have infinite money. We can see hundreds of pitches, but they don't have the time for hundreds of investments each. - Sometimes a deal is not taken, because while it's good... it's not great. And the dragons wait for something great. You'll recognize lines such as: "Ooou. There's a battle between my heart and my head here. On this one I'm out." or "This is a good business. It's a good one for you. I just feel it's a little small for me at the moment, so I wish you all the best but I'll be out on this one." - Sometimes a deal is not taken because it's just bad. The dragons can point out where it's bad. Lines such as: "Your valuation is crazy." or "Your product doesn't solve a problem." or "You have a good product, but a terrible business." or even: "I'm just not excited by it. There's no wow factor here for me. I have to be passionate if I get involved. So I'll be out this time." etc. There's a lot that goes into a dragon's consideration of investment. And sometimes the entrepreneurs can get unlucky. A dragon may be willing to take a punt on their pitch, or not. A dragon may like the idea that they have a similar investment, and want to back this one too... or they may say they don't want to back this 'because' they have that other business in a similar space. A dragon may say that they trust the entrepreneur's knowledge of the industry, and will back them because they like them. Or the dragon may say that no matter how great the entrepreneur seems to be, they (the dragon) just don't know enough about the industry, so they'll be out. Oou, here's one you may have heard too: "You've got a great business here, a fantastic product. The dragon to my left is actually the perfect investor for you, so I'm going to go out and leave the floor to them." or "Investor X here is an ideal investor for you, and they have just gone out. So that's an easy decision for me. For whatever eason they didn't like it... I won't like it... I'm going to go out but wish you all the best." The more deals a dragon takes the less time they have to devote to the next deals they take. Some deals will take a great deal of time from their schedule, others might be quicker investments with a little up front work but then not much in the follow-up letting them focus on something else. Sometimes the enemy of great is good. And sometimes deals are refused because the numbers don't make sense, or the product seems underwhelming. While those are the easiest instances for viewers to relate to and understand; there's so much more that goes through a dragon's mind when deciding if they want to back an entrepreneur standing in front of them there and now.

[@yankochoynev652]

@@Jessica7318 tl;dr the ivestors are entitled to their money and can make a personal choice whether to invest or not. They don't really need to give a reason on why they won't buy equity. Just like you (refering to the op, not the person I reply to) don't need a reason to decline buying some useless thing a salesperson tries to sell you.

[@Jessica7318]

@@yankochoynev652 Hello Yanko Choynev. Sorry it was too long for you to read. You may find we're in complete agreement had you read it. To sum up what I said: - The dragons may decide one day they want to invest in something, and decide the next day they don't want to invest in something very similar. - I explain a number of things the dragons often say that to many people feel 'hypocritical' but as you allude to, it comes down to a dragon's choice. They may feel like taking a gamble on something one day, but that in no way entitles another entrepreneur to feel like they 'have' to take that same gamble another day. Essentially my message points out that a lot goes into a dragon's decision to invest, or, in this case, not to. We as viewers can get wrapped up feeling the entrepreneur 'deserves' investment if they do well, but this isn't the case. Many people can 'do well' but just not get the funding they need. It's the world of business. Thank you for your opinion and I'm sorry it felt too long to read my last message.

[@yankochoynev652]

@@Jessica7318 I read the whole thing before I commented, I just made a summary for the op or others who won't read it. I think your comment was excellent! However, I'm not reading that second comment since I'm at the middle of preparing dinner atm xd

[@Jessica7318]

@@yankochoynev652 Hehe, thanks, misunderstood the tl:dr to mean it was too long, you didn't read it, but that you'd put your opinion heh. Didn't think it was: "her's the tl:dr of what he said". Thank you very much. :)

[@jackdiddIey]

Thanks for spoiling it lol

[@readmyprofiledont5060]

Don't Read My name;":''

[@SRC267]

@@readmyprofiledont5060 You want 🍪

[@Clavinovaman]

But you still watched it, huh?

[@AB-nv4ge]

Stating preferred Dragon in front of other Dragons is a big error!. No different to going for a job interview and stating preference for a competitor but needs a job and this one came up. No chance!

[@jmhj_]

cheeky title change to remove the spoiler

[@Lowkeyyshorts]

Deborah felt alienated 😂

[@rodhuy01]

Damn. Was here to see toukah offer some FREE office space. No wonder the deal didn't go ahead.

[@fretfulbadass]

Just in time for lunch! Blessed beyond. 🤗

[@bambieyedgirl7846]

Some cheesecake over here :D

[@bradster00]

This goes to show that you need to have a clearly defined mission statement before trying to seek investors. She was just a bit all over the place with mixed brand messaging.

[@mutomboinprogress]

12:46 😂😂😂😂 what? These punnnssss! They make my day, I tell you.

[@rudra7615]

People sometimes forget this isn't speed dating but pitching for investment. Two different things altogether

[@sebbepersson6819]

Interesting how Nick was asking for 12.5 for half the money, and Touker wanted to partner up with him getting 17.5% for half, and he turned it down! I know it was because he didn't want to focus on outside the UK, but still he would get a partner and higher percentage, and turned it down straight away

[@ASY2311]

Not really suprising. Hard to work with someone if you have different ideas for direction. There would be conflict and likely far less would be achieved over issues with decision making.

[@ashleelmb]

Maybe a contradiction in a business means more to him than a 5% share increase.

[@Kian-ww2hi]

well no one loves to hear that you’re second choice

[@cam_z]

Pls upload the Screen Machine pitch from s06e02 lol pure savagery from Peter and Duncan

[@Morpheus0000]

So where was the "shocking revelation"? She just took a second to process Tuka's suggestion that as they grow, they could move some manufacturing offshore and the other two dragons shouted "burn her, she's a witch!"

[@jimmyneutron129]

Because she said he was his preferred dragon. The egos of the other dragons are attacked, but worse she immediately loses any negotiation power

[@SKY-jv9ue]

The little girl acted very foolish - she had a GREAT offer from Debra! She should have stopped there, and taken it!

[@mary_syl]

Bad valuation has never stopped anyone in this show to make a different offer...Peter wasnt honest about why he wouldnt invest.

[@shafserious2805]

These titles ruin the vids

[@techsta72]

Don't know how they are so successful letting hurt feelings get in the way of business. The saying "it's nothing personal just business" is a quote I thought all successful smart business people respected.

[@Black.Sabbath]

7:09 Peter: *speaks last* I'm going to tell you straight away...

[@creatoremterrae7933]

9:07 oh no!!

[@Egyptitan]

Good Morning from the USA

[@mrsurprise2294]

Hello my fellow Americans

[@ya00007]

Why aren't entrepreneurs allowed to bring in business papers such as p&l reports etc ?

[@modelsteamers671]

What makes you think they can't?

[@loremipsum930]

Sad turn of events. If only Jenny had been there, she would have... Oh. Wait.

[@hamedahmadi8530]

Finish the sentence 🤬

[@andretait2817]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@khandadonb111]

Finish it!! *Green goblin from Spiderman 1*

[@jamest3336]

is just a sleeve for a disabled parking permit???

[@smoothmicra]

Hmm, can't even remember this one. I must stop drinking so much beer...

[@Rwooshbites]

She really ignored Debra there, that was heavy rude

[@diannekeightley9443]

Did you hear about the dyslexic who walked into a bra???😂😃

[@owen8510]

😂🤣🤣

[@michellestratford9753]

The weakness is always the valuation. Entrepreneurs have trouble because it's their baby, so they're too close to it 😚

[@rachmadsuhartono]

Wow they all out just because she preferred Touker?

[@Wetlax11]

8:36 ouch touker that sounds painful

[@GigaEnigma]

OMG! When she said Touker was the dragon she really wanted, I was like "Noooooo! You're ruining your pitch!"

[@StoriesWithPrentice]

Felt like I was watching a dinosaur documentary

[@fretfulbadass]

🤔

[@DaveCSX]

Who cares if Deborah is upset? I'm sure she'll be just fine, crying into her silk sheets, or being driven around by her chauffeur.

[@marcelovolcato8892]

That must have hurt.

[@Joesharpp]

It happens!!

[@rahulsingh7508]

A few lessons are worth learning the hard way. This is one of those.

[@dazediss6629]

Change the title quickly. This is a disaster. Just say “Deborah gets naked” or something

[@lj7169]

Now, that - I would watch

[@rohilthomson]

@@lj7169 I haven't met a lot of people with a GILF fetish. I wonder how it must feel to be so kinky....

[@Jamie_Winsh]

As soon as she started saying she wanted Toucker I was cringing cos I could see Deborahs reaction. Why do people say that! Do they even watch dragons den? It just excludes other dragons

[@Mossyz.]

I love this show .

[@matthewkenny2223]

The Dragons are very sensitive

[@Jessica7318]

- Sometimes a dragon will say: "You're asking for a small amount of money, it's not enough to compete in this market place, I wish you luck, but I'm out." - Other times they'll say: "If you'd asked for a smaller amount of money, I might think: 'this is worth a punt' but at this amount of money, it's just too rich of a valuation, so I'm going to be out on this one. - Sometimes a dragon will say: "If I invest in something, I need to be passionate about the idea, and I need to know enough about it. I don't know anything about this market place so I'm going to be out." - Other times a dragon will say: "I don't know a lot about this market place, but that's alright. Because you're very good! I believe YOU have done your homework and you've got a good head on your shoulders so I very much want to invest in YOU." - Sometimes a dragon will say: "Good pitch, nice little business here, solid numbers. Unfortunately, I'm invested in a similar company, so I'm afraid I'm conflicted out of this investment. I can't back another company that may end up competing with my pre-existing investment." - Other times a dragon will say: "I'm actually invested in this space. I've gone through this journey with a few other entrepreneurs. So I am the ideal investor for you. I know what pitfalls you're about to run into and the obstacles ahead. I can save you a lot of time and money and help you navigate what's coming. So I'm going to make you an offer..." etc. Very often, we as viewers watch this show and we root for the entrepreneur. This isn't a bad thing, but we can find ourselves thinking that if their pitch is good, if their numbers are good, and they make a good impression, we believe they 'deserve' investment. When the dragons don't invest, we find it unfair or we feel the entrepreneur got screwed. The dragons look at this a different way. - A dragon may see a good pitch, but think to themselves: "There is a good chance a 'better' pitch comes in the next 5, 10, 20 minutes, next hour, etc. I'm going to save my money and not take a go on this one. - A dragon may see a pitch where the entrepreneur is struggling, and see a chance for a great play. "I can get a great stake in this company at one hell of a bargain because they're desperate. It won't take much effort on my part, I have the contacts, if it works, I'll make a killing, if it doesn't, it cost me pennies on the dollar to take the gamble. Why not." - A dragon may see a pitch that simply grabs them entirely. It's a pitch in a sector the dragon knows well, the dragon loves the numbers, the deal makes sense. They make an offer because if they don't get it, they will actually feel a sense of loss that they didn't get the deal. Other times, the dragon makes an offer that is so good by the numbers that if they get it, they feel they made a great deal. If they don't get it and someone else gets the deal, they don't mind. "I'd make you an offer, but... this needs a lot of work. A lot of work. I'd need 50% for that money." - And when the entrepreneur asks if they'll go less, they explain that no, no they won't. So if another dragon comes in and says they'll do it for 40%, this dragon doesn't mind because the other dragon may have an easier time with the investment. - Kevin O'Leary in the American Shark Tank has told entrepreneurs before: "You have a take it or leave it offer on the table." and he's outright told them: "It's worth this because this is what I want, and this is what I can do for you. If you say yes, we'll get to work today. If you say no, you go back out those doors, you're dead to me. Someone else will come in with an idea, take my deal, become extremely successful, go on to do great and wonderful things. But not you. So... the choice is yours." heh. This can sound extreme, and even seem like bullying, but the dragons don't have infinite money. We can see hundreds of pitches, but they don't have the time for hundreds of investments each. - Sometimes a deal is not taken, because while it's good... it's not great. And the dragons wait for something great. You'll recognize lines such as: "Ooou. There's a battle between my heart and my head here. On this one I'm out." or "This is a good business. It's a good one for you. I just feel it's a little small for me at the moment, so I wish you all the best but I'll be out on this one." - Sometimes a deal is not taken because it's just bad. The dragons can point out where it's bad. Lines such as: "Your valuation is crazy." or "Your product doesn't solve a problem." or "You have a good product, but a terrible business." or even: "I'm just not excited by it. There's no wow factor here for me. I have to be passionate if I get involved. So I'll be out this time." etc. There's a lot that goes into a dragon's consideration of investment. And sometimes the entrepreneurs can get unlucky. A dragon may be willing to take a punt on their pitch, or not. A dragon may like the idea that they have a similar investment, and want to back this one too... or they may say they don't want to back this 'because' they have that other business in a similar space. A dragon may say that they trust the entrepreneur's knowledge of the industry, and will back them because they like them. Or the dragon may say that no matter how great the entrepreneur seems to be, they (the dragon) just don't know enough about the industry, so they'll be out. Oou, here's one you may have heard too: "You've got a great business here, a fantastic product. The dragon to my left is actually the perfect investor for you, so I'm going to go out and leave the floor to them." or "Investor X here is an ideal investor for you, and they have just gone out. So that's an easy decision for me. For whatever eason they didn't like it... I won't like it... I'm going to go out but wish you all the best." The more deals a dragon takes the less time they have to devote to the next deals they take. Some deals will take a great deal of time from their schedule, others might be quicker investments with a little up front work but then not much in the follow-up letting them focus on something else. Sometimes the enemy of great is good. And sometimes deals are refused because the numbers don't make sense, or the product seems underwhelming. While those are the easiest instances for viewers to relate to and understand; there's so much more that goes through a dragon's mind when deciding if they want to back an entrepreneur standing in front of them there and now.

[@matthewkenny2223]

@@Jessica7318 Janey mac! I hope you had pre-typed that, because that was long! Yes your right that is every exact instance for a dragon declining a deal. I've just heard the same thing out of Deborah many times, that's all...

[@jamest3336]

Watching Deborah’s ego crumble was satisfying. I do love her though

[@peterlowes2311]

Deborah,as just thrown her toys out of the pram, she's needs to grow up, she's likes it whenever other people say Deborah her 1st choice.

[@reillythomas3143]

I love when they prefer touker. Means they’re paying attn

[@namnack]

What was the product again?

[@Jehannum2000]

A plastic sheet that goes over your windows to protect them from a thermonuclear explosion.

[@aidankelly840]

🎉she knew everything

[@julesmpc1314]

"Bonkers" 🤣🤣🤣

[@fallout2260]

@9:55 when touker was chatting 3/4 million she had chance to say no to offshore manufacturing.Just shows that all went out the window

[@fyukfy2366]

This is the one I'm most upset didn't get the deal done

[@heather77]

I don't know know why the dragons get so upset when they're told they are not the preferred dragon, I thought they were supposed to be good in business and in business you can't let anything affect your emotions. Very strange how they are always miffed by being told they're not 1st

[@adamwallis5903]

6:50 I didn't know that 21% of the uk is a niche market

[@benwilkins2998]

Click bait again. There was no shocking revelation.

[@phillipkleopas7230]

So dragons do not know about discounted cash flow valuation? You take future cash flow and discounted it to day to get the value of an asset or company. And I also see people that come to the Den do not know this

[@rudra7615]

Deborah's narcissism always comes out whenever she isn't preferred and the moment she hears another dragon is the top choice, claws are out.

[@seamusburke9101]

Yeah shes just an old cougar who wants it all her way. She is always dissappointed I'd say.

[@MuslimChocolatier]

Do you even know what narcissism entails?

[@rudra7615]

@@MuslimChocolatier loneliness?

[@Black.Sabbath]

​@@MuslimChocolatier Reply

[@Big-Timbo]

sharp and beautiful, shame she slipped by revealing her favourite touker :(

[@frozenwintershitty]

but why was touker her preferred dragon in the first place? i don't get it

[@janebishton8577]

Real life love it

[@jamesnoel5280]

Good morning

[@mrsurprise2294]

Morning good?

[@CurvyTribune]

I had a hell of a chuckle when she showed her bias of the dragons; She gotten cocky or just foolish

[@MrBubudas]

Did the right thing. Never sell yourself short.

[@davidplowie4670]

Why ruin the whole episode in the title? Spoils it.

[@IsomerMashups]

I like her, I like the product, and I think she was right about everything.

[@georgemargaritis2392]

You NEVER tell ro ANYONE: hey you are my second choice. That's both offensive and dumb.

[@burchil12]

Please change the caption lol

[@AliAli-tb9mm]

She didn't keep her secret favourite dragon , She should have negotiated and hit 3 dragons respectively she was on the edge at one point.

[@redrobiin]

She's already got boots and others, why should she care if they offer or not.

[@neildavies4332]

The whole programme is rigged in favour of those business people. You can't tell me, that ruthless, greedy 'Dragons', don't get together prior to the recording and have a business meeting about who's next in 'The Den' . Just watch any episode, thinking there's been a collusion between them and it will play out like that. This episode mentions at the end, with someone saying "She had three offers and she left with no money!" As, in disbelief, that someone could actually do that! They obviously shocked her with their criticisms of an already successful business. And she left! What she left with, was her INTEGRITY still intact! Result!

[@12345ngb]

I think it's perfectly ok for this sort of a product to let someone know that s/he is a preferred dragon for the same. The valuation is definitely way off the mark for a commodity like product. I thought Toukers speciality is retail.

[@DigitalSamTV]

It's rather ridiculous Deborah goes out just because she is not first choice. She has a massive ego issue, she could have swooped in and got a great business for a great price if she was bigger and smarter than her own ego.

[@flare90]

I don’t know. I think the way she said it was tough. When things aren’t a done deal.

[@Rebeccasweet100]

Debra is silly to get jealous. She has done very well in her life.

[@BachTantra]

Aww what a shame I really wanted her to get a deal