PvE Doesn’t Mean Casual (Not Necessarily…) | Star Citizen 4K

[@BonusContent]

SpaceDads make the system go round.

[@Farrister]

Space Dads unite!

[@zman_o7]

Exactly! 😎👆

[@Robisme]

The supporters that make the game possible.

[@kennethpedersen6266]

I am a spacedad tshirt. I would buy.

[@schakTheNerd]

Proud Space Dad here. Not opposed to PVP by any means, but I don't go seeking it out.

[@0Metatron]

Good attitude

[@makimera]

Same here, i don't mind pvp, i don't seak it out, but i have an issue when pvpers only go after easy targets, like cargo haulers or miners, but avoid other combat pilots.

[@MegaLingster15]

PVE is by far my favourite part of Star Citizen from mining to cargo hauling. that being said it also fun to man a turret in friends ship doing pvp like bountys or erts

[@Farrister]

The ERTs are also PvE!

[@TheZazzMatazz]

yeah the cargo missions in 3.24 are what have me most excited. I'll finally be able to haul stuff without having to front al the cash myself lol. helps me RP as well.

[@0Metatron]

ERT missions are against NPC’s. PVP means player vs player, it doesn’t mean combat

[@SuperDave1426]

@@TheZazzMatazz Right there with you! Back when I was playing Elite Dangerous, my favorite game loops were cargo hauling (where you didn't have to purchase the cargo; you just had to get it from point A to point B, etc.), passenger transport missions (which were essentially like cargo hauling, except for the part where your "cargo" could request that you take them on side trips to see something), and exploration. None of those have been available in Star Citizen (as far as I'm concerned, box missions don't count as cargo hauling; there's no real volume, and are way too much hassle for way too little pay). With the upcoming hangers and cargo hauling, I'll finally have *one* of the loops I like best in my space games. Here's to hoping that the next two loops aren't *too* far away! 👍 (Yes, I know better than to hold my breath.... 😆)

[@AmenAmarth]

I am space dad/trucker/salvager and proud. Just reminds me of being called a carebear in WoW and Guildwars 2 lol.

[@Farrister]

Ah yes, "carebear"

[@Bell_the_Cat]

It's like you read my mind.

[@GeneCavalcante]

Someone called me "lame gamer" and told me to play starfield...😢 Thanks for this video. I play games to relax and have fun. Not to be the best in PvP or things like that. ❤

[@Farrister]

Some people can be awful :(

[@linkboynine9814]

You don't play to be someone else's content. Most of us don't play to be someone else's content. Some people are spectacularly entitled when you express your lack of gratitude for being made into content for them. This is why I reframe pvp from what they want to pretend it is (super important and necessary for... no real reason other than they enjoy victimizing others) to what it *is:* just another gameplay loop, and one that *requires* other players instead of being fun entirely on its own at that.

[@nilsgerdes6747]

That's really cute. It's like a bully who wants to make friends but can't articulate with words, so insults it is. Very fragile ego. It shows, too, because he uses Starfield as a lame game. You know, the supposed Star Citizen killer? He must have been afraid... You should be proud for that: he feels like a bigger person and no matter how big of a dick he is to you, he can't really stop you from playing the game your way. Just don't engage with them, don't validate them. Nothing they can offer you has any value, it's just a waste of server capacity. 🤘

[@vagabondprime1691]

I feel this topic at the core of my being. I don't WANT to engage with people I don't know, 9 times out of 10 they just do something jerky and ruin my session. I have friends I play with, and we're pretty much all PVE. It's a really good time, and some of it is relaxing!

[@Farrister]

It's a valid choice!

[@Nemethon]

PvP people would like to see the game turned into a pure PvP game. But that was never Star Citizen's plan. There is an old interview with Chris Roberts, who made it clear that the main part of the game will be PVE. And PvP adds a little spice to the whole thing, so to speak, but was never intended to be the main part. And when someone then say, be a little more fair to people who don't like PvP so much, you get a lot of insults and insinuations. They don't understand that someone who doesn't want to play PvP doesn't mean they're afraid of it, or simply can't lose. They just aren't interested in it. The problem is that any PvP player can force their style of play on you. So PvP Player are in a power position. And some people take advantage of this in an unfair way. Some fairplay would be nice. Player are NOT NPC. It is a game, yes, but the player are people and investing a lot of money and time into it.

[@0Metatron]

There is no such thing as a “main part” in SC. Like CR also said in his initial pledge “I want to do it against REAL PLAYERS”

[@AccidentalFriendlyFire]

Yeah, I don't enjoy PvP, which is a far cry from not being GOOD at it. :-)

[@barnigranero5882]

PVP should be only by consent. Many PVE players don't want PVP not because of difficulty levels but because they want to avoid the types of human players who break immersion. CIG are making a game that is different to the norm and should revolutionsie gaming. One of these differences should be not copying the bad ideas from other games. That includes not using safe zones and unsafe zones to regulate PVP because that deprives PVE players access to content e.g. certain systems. There are technical ways to achieve this. CIG just need to have the creativity to adopt them.

[@Nerd_Detective]

I have long been a dabbler (including PVP), going way back to my days playing EVE Online. My corp was founded upon having a diverse group where we all knew how to help each other. The PVP-lovers took no shame in hopping into a mining op. The miners all had their roles in PVP. If someone picked on us, we all fought together, punching way above our weight class. We even baited pirates by putting our industrialists in deliberately dangerous situations, so the standby combat team could charge in... and on a few occasions ended up in protracted battles where those industrialists had time to go back and get THEIR combat ships to join the fray! It was a great bunch. And most importantly: everyone got along and respected each other! Because all of our preferred play styles were valid. There wasn't anything casual about anyone's favorite gameplay! And for the casual members... that was fine too! They were always welcome when they come make it, and no one looked down on them! We were happy they chose to spend their limited time that evening with us!

[@CuuchCRUSHER]

I find that most people who use the terms "casual, bob, or carebear" usually suck at the game. The real PvPers don't do chat PvP, they let their skills do the talking.

[@Farrister]

Carebear! I forgot that one. And there may be some truth to your words!

[@theman47145]

Totally agree. There are a toxic minority who are griefers pretending to be PvPers. Their sole purpose is to ruin the game for other players. They generally gang up on easy targets then taunt the player they kill. This is why people are getting pushed away from PvP. Real PvPers need to be on the discussions shutting these idiots down. The game is no fun if you are constantly worried about being ganked. Another point, PvP is a boring mess for many players. I can enjoy competitive games with good server performance, but even then I don't want to be forced to play a game mode I don't want to play.

[@0Metatron]

@@theman47145i agree with a lot of what you said but this game is always supposed to have varying degrees of the threat of danger from other players. Eventually high sec areas will carry very little danger from this but NEVER none at all.

[@senn4237]

@@0Metatron It definitely should. But if that danger is just someone hard killing you almost instantly, with little to no warning, that is never going to be fun for that person. And if that person is a new player, I doubt they stick around playing the game.

[@Traumglanz]

All three terms have different meanings. Two of them apply to pvp players too and one of them ... I mostly hear in a pvp context. So, pretty odd choice here from you.

[@makimera]

So happy to see this video.. I was close to give up on the game, with all the PVP discussions lately. As someone who just enjoyes logging on after a long day at work to go mining, salvage or caro hauling, i want to be able to do that and just chill. I have zero intrest int pvp where people go hunt cargo haulers and tell them to "get good" there is no fun in that, it just ends up ruining it for someone else trying to chill as well. What i hope CIG does, is look at EVE and do highsec, lowsec and null sec. Then i can chill in highsec, with low risk, low reward. Then lowsec and nullsec can be where pvpers can go duke it out. And if i want higher risk, higher reward, i can join up with org and go deep. Great video.

[@snaggletoof1927]

Very true. I've played lots of games where PvP was optional, and the PvErs were just as dedicated to progression and competitiveness than their counterparts.

[@Revi2151]

Proud spacedad care bear here, PVE for the last seven years. Did my first ever intentional PVP yesterday. Didn’t go horribly, but still not something I’ll seek out I don’t think - I just don’t like combat!

[@Farrister]

It's not for everyone!

[@thundermg5203]

As PvE player I cant wait until we get touring, doesnt sound so cool at first but Id love to see missions where u gotta pick up some guests and fly to awesome locations like pyro because they wanna see the solar flares or some special solar eclipse on a planet. Or have some pirates with bounties under your guests and you get some onboard fps or a bountie hunter stopping you^^ PvP can happen but im not going for it directly, besides transporting npc's from space port to space port is like cargo that loads & unloads itself xD Now we just need solid ai and have them enter and exit ships... just a few more years to go .....

[@Zagor24]

I used to be a filthy pirate in Eve Online, 100% PvP focused, from 1v1, small gang, fleet fights, capital and super capital engagements, wars... chasing that adrenaline high, notoriety, stats, killboard placements, k/d ratio... and it's been like that for over a decade. But now in SC I'm taking it slow, doing npc bounties, some bunkers, even tried salvage and mining, dropping advice to noobs in chat... it's like a retirement game for me. xD Who knows, maybe one day if the game finally releases and there is some end goal to pursue, maybe I change my mind, buy sticks and practice dog fighting 6 hrs a day and become a sweatlord again! But who knows what the future holds for SC...

[@CarterDDana]

I think there are a lot of future implications for industry-based orgs and individuals willing to handle logistics, exploration, and running financial engines (such as a fleet of reclaimers) for more militaristic orgs. Like the Javelin is supposed to be a financial sink, so there has to be a financial source to drive it. Or what if an org fleet wants to do a deep space patrol, they’d need logistics services to potentially ferry fuel, ammo, meds, food… maybe in exchange for salvaging rights to whatever gets in their way 😂

[@achildofbodom1]

100% proud of being the spacest of dads

[@FrazzleCat]

By far the vast majority of money will come from PvE players. Always has in online games, always will, so the more engaging the gameplay is for us the better it is for the game's continued support. 👍

[@Farrister]

Big spenders?

[@FrazzleCat]

@@Farrister Not necessarily. PvP activity in, say, mobile games make a lot of money. They're huge spenders. When it comes to MMOs however the PvE crowd has a massively larger population. I've been playing MMOs since original EverQuest and some bits and bobs before that. I've seen PvP focused games wither, PvP servers taken offline, and PvP activities turned into niche activities like a separate game mode. It's true that PvP has a passionate following, what it does not have are the numbers that are necessary to sustain an expensive operation like an MMO. Those that persist, like EVE for example, have engaging PvE content and still probably won't ever pull the same subscriber / player numbers that you see in WoW or FFXIV or the like.

[@zman_o7]

@@FrazzleCat spot on 😎👍

[@RahzZalinto]

does the vast majority of money come from PVE players in call of duty? Overwatch? League? Rhetorical. Obviously not. lol

[@FrazzleCat]

@@RahzZalinto If you really want to veer off topic from MMOs to cherry pick I can always use Genshin Impact, HonkaI: Star Rail or even Candy Crush Saga as PvE money makers with its $12 Billion in revenue. 🙂 But personally I would rather stay focused on MMOs.

[@Komotz]

My favorite one was "Carebear". Well Mr. ShootyMcSweaty, this 'carebears' ore and metals are being used to create the missiles and bullets you use. Don't blame us miners and traders when prices go through the roof.

[@Farrister]

Lol

[@CathrineMacNiel]

Proud to be a SpaceMom :D

[@Farrister]

Should be proud!

[@Rasc0117]

Finally. All I've been hearing lately in Star Citizen is PVP this, PVP that. Right now, I've seen more players getting their defenseless ships blown up by trolls rather than PVPers getting the dogfights they want. It'll be a while before all the gameplay and professions meld together in harmony.

[@Shaeli_RP]

are you sure blowing up defenseless ships isn't what PVP'ers want?

[@_Anaklysmos_]

@@Shaeli_RP nope, it is not at all what we want. What we want is for Master Modes to be removed from the game, so that physics make sense again, peaceful players have an easier time defending themselves again or outright avoiding combat and so that PvP is a fun and deeply engaging mechanic again with an incredibly high skill ceiling. The people you are referring to are griefers and gankers. Please don't confuse them with the PvP community. We mostly hang out in AC, so you won't encounter us that much, but we do exist.

[@jezza9617]

People are dropping torpedoes on people who landed just for the sake of destuection. Thats not really "PVP" ​@@Shaeli_RP

[@gareth0412]

You described my life to a tee. I also first pledged 10 years ago, I still have a package that includes s42. Now I have a family with 2 very young children and a full time job. I also had friends who are no longer gamers, who have children and careers. I only still play because back when I had money I spent £700 on pledges so I'm kind of locked into the fate of this game.

[@vik12D]

I can usually find "hardcore" PvPers camping Pickers, etc. I scout it without gear in an empty ship. Get killed, mocked in chat then come back and do a full send with an A2. They get less chatty for some reason.

[@bravozero6]

Doing pve and having random player interactions is what brought me to star citizen Responding to med beacons and rescuing stranded players became my next favorite thing

[@leonhart7306]

Going to be honest, I'm not a fan of mandatory PvP in games where players can pay for any form of power. Its not necessarily a deal breaker for me, I played BDO for ages, but I don't like that someone can spend a few hundred on a strong ship and have an advantage over an equally skilled player who didn't spend. I realize that P2W is a spectrum, and someone can overcome this advantage by putting hours in (and skill/experience>money spent) but I still don't like it.

[@Farrister]

Aw man, P2W is another can of worms!

[@FAAMS1]

Time is literally money and no this is not a metaphor...that argument in a online game these days is valid for 48 hours!

[@malicious1968]

@@Farrister there is no P2W. all ships can be purchased in game. without the whales buying those ridiculous (priced) packages, the funding for this would not be where it is. remember we are not buying a game. we are backers, testers, our feedback and hard work as such will determine (to an extent) how it will be upon completion, then it will be a game. i agree with your points in the vid to a degree. no there is nothing wrong with pve (although as with most mmos they cry loudest about pvp) there is also nothing wrong with pirates wanting to steal your stuff. there are no real peaceful players, all ships have weapons. if you are making a cargo run worth millions dont be dumb hire a few players (soon npcs also) to run security. also play with a mic, communication goes a long way . pirates can often be paid off, make friends, ask to be added to friends list(white list)

[@_Anaklysmos_]

@@malicious1968 sadly, at the moment there actually is P2W again. Just look at the incredibly overpowered F7A Mk2 which can only be bought with real money. Or the F8C back in last year. Whenever these kinds of ships are first being released, CIG is adding a lot of power creep and fomo and literally gatekeeps them behind a paywall. Luckily, after a few patch cycles they usually get nerfed into the ground. But as it stands currently with the F7A, we are playing a P2W game once again XD

[@malicious1968]

dude you are still having the mentality that this is a game and you are playing. you are a tester, a backer. you wont be a player until final release. i became a backer 10 years ago. i paid $45 for star citizen and sq 42 . you can no longer purchase sq42. the hornet was available to all as a starter package once upon a time (like sq42). the mk2 you could get a free upgrade by completing overdrive missions in game. remember this game is 100% public funded. thank you whales. we all trust CR and want to help him create our vision of a truly epic space game. atm there is no balance between ship weapons much less the ships themselves. what we are testing today will not be the game we have upon release. a lot of people lose sight of the fact that we are TESTERS not PLAYERS soon we will be players but not today.

[@alphatonic1481]

As long as there is no PvE server i will just keep looking at SC content like your videos. I am to old for PvP and the stress it causes in me is not what i want from gaming. Real life is stressful enough.

[@charliebetango]

Solo PVE is by far the majority of what I do and what I enjoy, but it's always more interesting when unexpectedly encountering PvP enthusiasts in game. Avoiding and perhaps escaping from an overly enthusiastic PvP'er is part of the depth of the game. These PvP'ers (eg. pirates) are just part of the environment that is to be encountered, part of the challenge to be enjoyed. I'd say the same about technical glitchiness too - it's just part of the environment, part of the challenge to complete an in-game goal when you don't know what you will encounter on any given day!

[@MrGadfly772]

Thank you for saying this. I always prefer PvE simply because over time I have run across too many arrogant PvP players. Not always mind you but enough for it to impact my enjoyment of the game. Often in game systems PvP is the only option for veteran players and there becomes this "noob versus veteran" battle that happens. Often the developers will stick with the loyal PvP vet fanbase (They are the squeakiest wheels after all) and the "noobs" will be driven away. I am optimistic that Star Citizen will avoid this trap.

[@JJS563]

People can call me whatever they want but I will always vote for the PvE experience and the majority of SC is held up by the "casuals". PvP exists, it always will, but shouldn't be forced. CIG still need to figure out what this game is so we have to kinda wait until then.

[@MadIIMike]

I think it's kinda funny how big the egos of some PVP players on spectrum are. I burned myself out in War Thunder, because ultimatively it felt meaningless to que up in planes I was very comfortable with, get into a advantageous position and then farm kills. I'm not against PVP in Star Citizen, but unless it's implemented in a way that has persistent consequences, it's going to ruin the game. IMO a reasonable start would be a persistent reputation system, where you're getting hunted by whoever is in charge of a system or get protected by them depending on reputation. Basically, Pirates in Stanton would be in similar trouble as lawful players in Pyro.

[@EdwardDragon96]

Imma go out on a limb here, the ones with the big egos arent the PvPers or the PvEers. Its the griefing and ganking trolls that want to ruin other peoples fun and elevate themself above everyone else.

[@festersmith8352]

Some just want to experience the creation CIG is making. Others just want to watch the world burn. Look familiar? Anonymity is a heck of a drug.

[@Farrister]

Love that quote

[@kbahrami346]

Good words. My free time for this game has dropped since I have a lot of other fun things going on in parallel. I also don't really care what some random person online necessarily thinks of my gameplay so it is all good!

[@BizzleMade1]

PVE is where its at for me. When I first seen SC I was blown away by the scenery, beauty, chill vibes, beautiful ships, cruising in space and along planet sides, etc. That's why I play but I have indulge in pvp even I'm no good at it. I had firebird, shot them with missiles, emptied my guns, and he still kiled me in a few hits with omnisky IX's. Yet he was a smaller ship so I lowkey gave up on pvp cause it don't make since to me. PVE is where its at lol.

[@anothergoogleuser]

Thanks for sharing. Space dad? Nah. You’re my space bartender!

[@Blue-Mystic]

Totally Agree.

[@Farrister]

o7

[@freederth619]

PVP was never on my list when I joined the verse, a place to chill from other games out there.

[@EcthelionnHOS]

almost 30 years of playing MMOs have shown me that there is no such thing as "reasonable precautions" for pvp. A game is either opt-in, or it's a gank box. And after over two decades, I've come to the conclusion that there's really no "benefit" to be gained from the non-consensual gameplay. That said, unfortunately there really is no other game competing with SC, so I've abandoned all the gameplay loops I wanted to play in SC when I backed it to focus solely on fighters just so I can defend myself.

[@0Metatron]

Great to see that you are actually taking the time to learn how to fight back. As a PVP focused player we need more people like this…But Loading Star Citizen IS the consent!! There is no such thing as non consensual PVP in this game and everyone who bought the game already “opted in” Anyone who has done their proper research before buying the game will know this.

[@SuperDave1426]

@@0Metatron Gee, I just love the typical "everyone must play the game the way *I* want to play it" mentality on display here. Sounds like the typical ganker trying to masquerade as a PvPer excuse. Prime example of what Farrister was talking about in the video. 🤦‍♂

[@richardpatton6691]

@@0Metatron It's really disturbing that's what you think consent is. Consent means you *want* something to happen, not that you accept the risk of it happening.

[@makimera]

@@SuperDave1426 unfortunatly thats how alot of good games get's ruined these days. The loud pvp minority screams and yells all over, until they get what they want, and the PVE players ends up leaving, then the PVP community gets boored becouse there is no longer any "easy" targets. and the game dies.

[@SuperDave1426]

@@makimera True. Sad, but true.

[@andrewcoulthard-clark]

I hear the Chinook is coming to DCS, now that would make a great video - especially as a preview of what ships like the Ironclad should be...

[@Farrister]

I was eyeing it up but the whole Razbam drama makes me a little nervous

[@jameswilliams468jw]

do you think the cargo update and new missions will create more pvp on trade route?

[@Farrister]

Maybe, but it will be interesting to see if cargo hauling opportunities make it less painful to lose cargo

[@jameswilliams468jw]

@@Farrister always a pleasure to watch your vids keep it going

[@Haegemon]

Not yet. It will be a physicalized cargo but the reasons to haul will be the same as right now. I think it needs 3 more. Reputation update, Resources update and Law&Order upfate.

[@obaniehia]

i mean, there are times when i just want to sit back and salvage and listen to music, jump in and bump through ground FPS missions... and then there are times where i just got to go murder hobo and just kill everything i see. all game styles are fun.

[@Guardian_Templar]

I look forward to the day our gameplay has more effect on the game, such as RMC possibly for repairing or building. This will help PVPers and PvEers, even salvagers will be needed on pirate groups.

[@festersmith8352]

I'm kinda wondering the circumstances, that lead you to the desire to take the time to make this video. It was really good by the way! But not sure why it needed to be said. Glad someone did though! Those that want to harsh on players for PVE, that turn to insults to do it, are nothing more than the same childish bullies they encountered, and likely suffer from bruised/traumatized vanity from having their head shoved in the toilet. Just trying to get back what they lost. If one has to rely on how well one does in a game to get that confidence back, one is really missing any kind of real meaning in life. If you win a fight and are proud of it, congratulations! You have proven that you can point and click on a 2 dimensional screen more efficiently. That is something to be really proud of! Meanwhile, I have freight to deliver, a home to remodel, a garden to attend, and an engine to rebuild. I'll play SC when I can in my spare time. Being a good husband and/or father takes commitment too. I have met many of these bruised types in my life. We all have, in co-workers, siblings, parties. They are the ones who do it all very well, and its never their fault when things go wrong. Keep practicing that point and click. Their is always someone out there, who is bigger and better at it. After all, the whole purpose of your life depends on it.

[@asog88]

I like pvp done right. In the world of SC, there has to be consequences and things have to be done for a purpose

[@parkerxgps]

Once, I figured out the important bits. I've only been ganked twice while risking it. Not bad odds for my time spent. The way I see it. One problem is most people are unaware or uncaring of precautions that are easy enough. That Being said, the attacker does seem to play with more abandoned towards the opponent. I can understand wanting to ensure ones victory but, that kind of takes the gameplay out of it for me. A foregone conclusion is just that. My favorite pvp, or gaming period. Refuses to be a foregone conclusion.

[@Farrister]

Much like you, I try to avoid unfavourable situations. My running away skills are great lol

[@splaff666]

When the ecomemy is in the miners,haulers and salvagers will rule !

[@kronnickusrex7832]

I have a small industrial fleet. Probably do mostly mining and salvaging once the game gets up and going. I am really interested in base building.

[@CaptainRobertson]

I completely agree and from what I've seen I think that the majority of Star Citizen players probably tend to be PvE and Industrial ones. I prefer that style of gameplay myself but saying that I do still like the occasional bit of PvP from time to time, but rather than mindless player killing or piracy - which really doesn't do anything for me and just feels wrong in my opinion - I much prefer competitive group based PvP where my friends and I can fight other voluntary participants over some sort of strategically important resource node, so I'm hoping that in future CIG introduce more fleshed out org vs org warfare options where they add the ability for us to fight over unique trade stations, outposts, asteroid clusters or debris fields that offer a high risk vs reward gameplay element for those looking for little more excitement. What are your thoughts?

[@Haegemon]

Sure. My only interest for SC was due to this. I see it like an Universe piloted by the Engine, where there is non-player factions that players can join. Then is when PVP may happen because the Engine decides these factions are in conflict and npcs and players have to co-op to defend themselves against other npcs and players.

[@varthelm]

Nice topic. Everyone gets to spend their time and their money the way they see fit. No one has a right to tell you what you should find fun....even if the lames try to do so anyway. I also agree that an element of PvP risk is fun, if balanced correctly. I mostly PvE myself but do very occasionally partake, especially if my orgmates are getting static. :)

[@sleepfishl]

Playing for 2 years now ... I have yet to come across a player out in the verse who doesn't just shoot on sight. ... I stay in the Halo until they introduce ways to find people there. Then I might just start playing something else. ... Unless this fricking "shoot first" mentality changes.

[@Farrister]

I usually leave the moment I see another player. Fly away, Farrister!

[@davewills148]

''Shoot on sight'' depends on the ship you fly, if im in a fighter and come across a miner/salvage ship i ignore it, its polite as the ships not a threat. Yet a fighter would be a 'call to arms', its the whole point of flying a fighter. equally, if im leaving a facility outside an Armistice zone........i'll ''shoot on sight'', its a lesson learned.

[@SuperDave1426]

@@davewills148 If the other player in a fighter has a red chevron, then yeah, I can see that - they're a likely person who was shooting other people. Just remember if you "shoot on sight" another player in a fighter with a *blue* chevron, you're going to be the person flying around with a red one on you, and everyone else could consider *you* to be the "shoot on sight" player. 😆😋

[@davewills148]

@@SuperDave1426 They do, i gave up being mr nice guy along while back...nice gets you nothing, nice gets you knowhere, although might have to change that attitude if a want to join an ORG?

[@richardpatton6691]

@@Farrister This is the problem that mixing PvP and PvE generates. Developers like to think that doing so creates "emergent" gameplay, but there are inevitably only two outcomes: shoot on sight, or flee on sight. PvP will ALWAYS foster paranoia, such that no one is ever willing to interact with anyone outside their friends list or party. There can't be those cool dynamic interactions because no one is willing to trust each other long enough for them to happen.

[@BalkanRedneck]

Let's not mince words. People who play PvP pirates in games like these do so not for the money or the challenge but precisely because they know, somewhere out there, there's another player whose day they've ruined and they get off on that fact. You can claim you are doing it for the RP all they long, but at the end of the day, the only reason you took down a Vulture in an Arrow, is because you know you've soured someone else's gaming session.

[@JimCook]

Great commentary as always.

[@thetattoodmini]

as someone who loves the relaxation of stuff like mining and salvaging, I also like trying my hand at bunker missions or bounties from time to time... but i think the pvpers need to understand that there are going to be a large number of players that don't want pvp. i think there needs to be better communication on the fact that if you want to pirate, you should give your opponent a chance to either open up the ship and resolve it peacefully, or fight back. and if a pver decides they don't want to handle things peacefully, then they have to understand that they are about to get shot. i've had a number of times that i've been hit by a QSD and i've always stopped and hailed the guy, telling him not to shoot and i'll let him take his pick of cargo. i've even helped them load it. i'd rather have pvpers that are willing to hold off on shooting first, to have the chance to keep going with my flight and not have to constantly be respawning because they want to steal everything

[@wmouse]

One of the common problems in games that allow semi-open PvP is that they put all the risk on the PvE player (with a huge load of valuable cargo to lose) and all the profit on the PvP player (who suffers no meaningful consequences if they lose). PvP needs to be a *serious* commitment with huge amounts of risk.

[@zman_o7]

I am a boomer and a carebear and proud of it! Thank you for addressing the mud slinging by the unwashed murder hobos Farrister o7 🤣👍

[@Christfollower89]

Care bear here! I play Star Citizen to space truck😂

[@Farrister]

Interested to see what 3.24 throws into the mix!

[@slipshft1]

I am more of a PvE player and have been for some time, read that about 30 years. I do not mind when a player challenges me, I can run with the best of them. Time to time though I will stay and fight if I feel the desire. I am one of those that just wants to fly around and explore when I have time. The family and job keep me busy so I take time when I can to enjoy all that the game provides. That being said, I am a SpaceDad with SpaceDad jokes.

[@FrancisFjordCupola]

I think that PvP should be predominantly consensual with the big exception of bounties on criminals. CIG can help here by providing loads of non-combat ships and fitting loops for them. Casual gameplay is important too... simply because not that many people with wallets have equal amounts of time to spend on a game.

[@broonkhavar1461]

Being a member of a Medical Org, who has literally hundreds of successful rescues under my belt, I can tell you that PVE does NOT mean casual. Our entire Org, which has thousands of members, is proof of this fact. The vast majority of rescues are PVE, but that doesn't mean they don't take skill - they take a huge amount of it, in fact... and a vast knowledge of the game. It's locations, it's quirks, it's mechanics and systems, AI behavior, player behavior, and the current meta activities of all the various types of players. One rescue we might be picking up a stranded miner, and the next we might be extracting a wounded player from a warzone, and the next we might be catching someone falling into a gas giant. We take *everything* about our rescues seriously - sometimes to the point where we are made fun of by others for how seriously we take our game loop. That's okay though - because like another commenter said - we let our skills do the talking. If you need a rescue in the verse, you're not likely to find any players more "hardcore"... than someone who's chosen primary game loop is rescuing **you** from **yours** when it all goes wrong.

[@G0oNi.E]

😂

[@rixxy9204]

Great video!

[@viisovari4544]

Strict opposed to PvP by any means. Should have a turned off option. Like GTA Online or Sea of Thieves but without limitations.

[@Farrister]

I think you're not the only one

[@Popper101010101]

One of the things that's started to crop up is an acceptance of murderhobo'ing, or just killing people for kicks when you encounter them. I'm hoping there are systems in place so people who aren't specifically going to be competing against each other, whether in piracy or trade wars or just general factional disputes from missions or territory aren't just considered loot pinatas for no consequence. I dislike the term PvE player as it really precludes the entire experience of the game. But dear god if we could normalize calling the murderhobos bots I'd appreciate it. We already have the regular game bots killing us without remorse, don't need more of them from players.

[@ArkanonSenpai]

Well said, I completely agree.

[@RaulEmilioBustamanteGallego]

I agree with all you said. Specially the "life happens". I wishj I had more time to be a HardTryier, but I have 9 projects upon my shoulders, a wife 10 years younger, a teenage daugter and 2 cats. So, yeah, call me casual, SpaceDad or whatever you like. Where can I sign?

[@ph11p3540]

Battles are won by combat players in combat ships. Wars are won in logistics, the mines and factories. Logistics and supply chains are naturally complex.

[@AIPilot-Boda]

PvE definitely does not mean casual, I suspect I’ve put a ton more hours into this game than a lot of PvPers and that’s probably the same for many others. PvPers can also be casual, putting minimal time into the game just to shoot easy targets to take the easy money and run.

[@Haegemon]

Oh my....people in Spectrum goes crazy with this theme. It's PVP and PVE, both. Not yet organized.

[@drk3309]

Agree, I more like to discover and build something up (home base) and make myself a living.

[@melsy2]

Wait, other SC look down upon us? Hmmmm. I never even knew. It's probably because I've been playing the game the way I wanted to 😂😂

[@lordbayne7918]

Im a combat vet who has spent decades in mixed martial arts. I grew up poor on the wrong side of town and spent much of my life in scraps. I prefer PVE because my real life has been full of REAL conflict and I like to relax with PVE. I don't need video games to feel masculine and couldnt care less about what Try-hards think about my preference. Experience some real struggle and see where you land with the down time.

[@doncockroft550]

I guess I am a space dad.

[@Farrister]

Me too!

[@RoughGalaxyYT]

I consistently get the vibe that pvp players consider non pvp focused players as "lesser" because we aren't as good at combat. The problem is that SC is a game of skill. PvE gameplay takes skill, PvP takes skill. Why should I, a pve player, split my attention between what I want to do and pvp, when a pvp player gets to focus solely on what they want and will inevitably always be better? I'm shoe horned into being mediocre at something I like doing and something I don't like doing? Nah. The white-hat pvp players ain't bothering me. Chances are they're going to be coming to me for my services (I plan on being a space wrench jockey). The black-hat pvpers are just there to ruin someone's day. The only grey area are the Pirates. You can have a good pirate who just wants your stuff or can be negotiated with because they understand it's an mmo and we're here for interactions.

[@novalis791]

Well said

[@Farrister]

Thanks Novalis

[@plagueprincess1870]

5:48 cannibalism warning

[@Farrister]

Lol

[@senn4237]

I think the reason many people are averse to PvP in Star Citizen is because your opponent can literally just buy a better ship than you.

[@Haegemon]

I think it's because now they can do it with no repercusion and little punishment. Bounty Hunting yet is expecting the big update v2, Law&Order and the rework of the prison system is worked on with no precise release date.

[@BlazinPhoenix82]

I've never been much into pvp in any mmo I've played. That said, I had a blast killing griefers during Xenothreat 😂

[@edenyan7237]

This is a space travel time period live simulater, not a space COD or ace combat, there is nothing wrong been casual, I don't even go out with a weapon, one multitool and two HP shots, because if someone shots you and you shot back, the game think you're OK with PVP, you are part of it. there's nothing wrong with purely PVE gameplay or non-combat gameplay, it is wrong to force people play the game in their way. my time is nothing 'less important' than anyone elses, so I use my game time doing my own things should be respected.

[@reamoinmcdonachadh9519]

I am less skilled in PvP, and frankly, I don't give a flying fck about that. I prefer PvE over PvP everytime.

[@_Anaklysmos_]

To address some of the names PvE players are called: Terms like Carebear and Spacedad are usually being used to refer to people who get mad at you when you pirate them, not recognizing that PvP can happen in this open Sandbox. Those people are usually also min maxers, but not regarding PvP but rather things like trading solo and putting all their money into one trade run whilst trading on the most common route that is know for being pirated. Afterwards they wonder why they got killed, get salty in chat and insult you. People like you, however, like you said, recognize that PvP can happen in the verse, but try to avoid it. Which is absolutely fine. As far as I'm concerned or at least regarding the PvP and pirate communites I usually hang around with, you would never be considered a Spacedad with the mindset you have. The people that tell you otherwise have simply no idea what they are talking about. One thing I have to say though, is that imo, as it stands currently in SC, there is way less skill involved in nearly every PvE profession compared to PvP combat. Mining is something, you can master in a day, whilst salvaging is currently nothing but MS Paint and space Tetris (aka point and click). The only exception that comes to mind, currently would be racing. I am not saying that PvE players don't have skill, it's just a shame that right now there is almost no opportunity for PvE players to express skill. Mining needs to offer more difficult and dangerous situations and thus be more rewarding at higher difficulties. The most work needs to be done on salvaging. Of course, for that they would need to implement the armor system, maelstrom, and the resource network first. Hull scraping should have you prioritize certain parts of the hull where the armor is made out of more valuable materials. Hull munching should not be just pressing one single button and then waiting for the animation to finish. First, you should determine, which parts of the already scraped wreckage are made of the most valuable materials. Also, you should check for fuses, fuel tanks or other dangerous, possibly highly explosive obstacles. Then you switch your scraping beams to laser cutter mode and try to precisely cut out the most valuables parts of the wreck. If you have cut out a piece, you activate your ship's tractor beams (in the case of the vulture) and move the piece between these two arms of the ship (no idea what they are called) where the piece will then get cut down further (just like in the concept arts) and then sucked into that grinder under the cockpit. For the reclaimer, the claw should grab the cut out piece and then somehow move it into its own grinder. As of now, salvaging is a joke, but there is lots of room for improvement. Same goes for all PvE professions. I am looking forward to the day PvP won't be the only deeply engaging game mechanic, but seeing as with Master Modes, PvP also got dumbed down massively, my hopes aren't that high. I'm curious, though. What do you think, about the current gameloops, Farrister? Did I miss some aspects that actually already make certain mechanics deeply skill based? And again, please don't take this as demeaning or belittling of what you do in the game.

[@_Anaklysmos_]

@chrishoppner150 of course, you are one hundred percent right. I was talking about people who play in very greedy ways. That means investing way too much money, flying the most popular and dangerous routes without any protection, not even doing a small quantum jump to another marker first in order to not directly jump into a quantum snare. The thing is, when these people inevitably do get caught, they are acting like it wasn't obvious what would happen to them, calling us griefers etc. Of course, people are negative when they get pirated and it is expected. However, if they insult you way more than necessary and played like greedy idiots, that's the only time when we call someone a SpaceDad or Carebear.

[@Haegemon]

Many PVEers will be explorers living like space nomads looking for what is to discover. For scavengers isn't only using a Redeemer, components will have to be collected and perhaps you decide to tow that derelict instead of munch it into the machine because you want to do some restoration like in a mechanical sim. Others expect to raise crops and mik spacecows and others expect to have a shop with their craftings. As you can see some PVE players are very far from being interesting piracy targets (except for the crop thieves). These are those who after clean the mess of the battle.

[@_Anaklysmos_]

@@Haegemon nice write-up. You really got me dreaming about the potential of Star Citizen again XD

[@HaechiYT]

I couldn't care less if they removed pvp entirely. I'm here only to enjoy pve and industrial content with my friends.

[@FAAMS1]

The correlation between PvE and casual gaming should be framed as a matter of probability not of being or not being necessarily one or the other in a binary assessment. It is traditionally the case that AI programming is deliberately dumb down to appeal to broader casual audiences and DCS is the worst possible example to make a case since it is one of the very very rare exceptions in which PvE has a certain degree of difficulty tho miles below DCS PvP. The day PvE decides to be hard PvE players would as they already do complain for far less then hard, that the game is not "fun". Fun is one of those words who got murdered by a thousand cuts by the PvE crowd. If dumber is "fun" then I am indeed a squary old fart!

[@JL-rj9fl]

I agree with you, PVE doesn't mean casual. There are challenging PVE games out there that reward practice and dedication to get good at them. The biggest casual factor for me, that drives me crazy at times, is in the interfaces and design of games over the last 15 years. It seems like games go out of their way to put objective markers over everything. If I'm supposed to go to a location and hunt a bounty or something, I'm more than capable of flying around, scanning, and finding/tracking the target. I could take a delivery mission and remember to pick up box 12345 at station X and take it to outpost Y. I can read a message or listen to words to understand and remember what to do. I don't need a marker to tell me where to go or show me the exact box I need to pick up. Quality of life is one thing, but games shouldn't need to treat everyone like they're a moron. Sorry for the rant, I really didn't intend to go off on such a tangent.

[@ephalanx1]

What is the hang up on difficulty? Just because someone doesn't find the PVE difficult doesn't mean everyone will. Accessibility doesn't have to correlate to casual. No need to shade others that enjoy a more laid back or even easy play style. And PVEers are opposed to hard content and it wont be fun then? That's a rather broad assumption? Some people just rather not come home after work and deal with 'try hard' mentality. And many of them have already been through the try hard phase - just doesn't appeal to them anymore.

[@FAAMS1]

@@ephalanx1 It is the nature of gaming since 10.000 years ago...if you didn't got that by now it is indeed useless for me to try to explain it to you. I have no problem with PvE gaming I am getting old and do it a lot more often now...I just don't twist facts nor play masquerading language games. I am sorry for being straight honest, c'est la vie mon cher ami!

[@ephalanx1]

@@FAAMS1 Careful, I may just be older than you. lol. I'm no spring chicken here, plus I also do both. However, simply put not all games are super competitive and things evolve. We aren't talking 10K years ago. Powerwash sim is a game.. not very competitive or hard but a game no less. SC even with the accessibility changes still has a high learning curve for most gamers. That said, there are goals in games that involve puzzles, challenges, etc. that do not have to be overly hard. It can be about progression, passing the time, etc. No one is masquerading with you here. Just pointing out there is no one way to game and its not always about some crazy difficulty level. You have Dark Souls and you also have Animal Crossing. Both are games with vastly different difficulty levels.

[@FAAMS1]

@@ephalanx1 I can easily grant you by sheer diversity that not ALL games are directly competitive sure, but PvE only truly exists IMO in solo games. as soon as you have the online word in there at best what you have that people call PvE is passive aggressive PvP...so there is a hell lot more to unpack there when it comes to observe player behaviour in online environments typically described as PvE. As far as I have seen either by ignorance or convenience regarding game Theory Nash equilibriums and social dynamics no one wants to have a serious honest open conversation about that. For one because the masses have a very simplified vision of what is PvP and PvE and videos wouldn't sell if one was up to complexify the debate.

[@speedogomer]

Me?...spaceDADDY maybe

[@Farrister]

Oh my

[@Tentacl]

The Elden Ring expansion was released yesterday. PvE is not casual, there is no correlation.

[@Farrister]

I should have said Elden Ring - great example!

[@FAAMS1]

hahahaha xD...oh man you are a true believer...really fascinating! And no, I am not joking, it is indeed fascinating that you vow for that POV... now I would love to see you bet an harm or a leg for that comment!

[@AndrewJens]

Over the previous eight years I've spent about AU $1,000 on ships in Star Citizen. I did that because I wanted to support a great concept and also because, based on limited time, I wanted a good start on how I want to play the game - which is not PvP. As a hobby, it also seemed cheaper than golf. Lately, I've stopped investing because I've become worried that the 'verse will become a place of horror for passive players. To be fair to me: RSI have made no statement about how I (as a solo player) will be protected as I go about my everyday benevolent activities. At this (hopefully) late stage of development, shouldn't RSI be able to comment about the gameplay loop for SpaceDads v. sociopaths (i.e. players with too much time/money who find it "funny" to use missiles against ships and bases)?

[@Farrister]

It's a difficult situation to be in, but one that could be handled such that there are spaces for everybody to do what they want to do

[@AndrewJens]

@@Farrister Yes, absolutely. I would like RSI to make some sort of statement about how that mechanic works. Surely after 12+ years they have some sort of idea…?

[@Ogata123]

In the end the argument doesnt matter. If CIG wants to make the game into a predator/prey game that likely dies off (the direction im seeing from many of their choices), there isnt much the players can do about it. CIG promised the world to everyone and despite being “open development” has masterful marketting demons that know exactly how to leave gaping holes in buyer knowledge that drive sales through the power of player imagination. We will see whether CIG agrees with what each of these different spheres of gamers believe they were promised over time, but not everyone will be happy or even can be happy with that outcome (in fact certains spheres believe they were promised things that are entirely opposed to one another).

[@Farrister]

You may be right... :(

[@pheebs8451]

I think PvP has lower investment. Learning time is lower, payout is higher, investment is lower. It’s a quicker fix.

[@Revster]

I mean even within PVE there’s a casual barrier Do you run ship/bunker bounties? Casual Do you run ship bounties and steal their cargo to sell? Do you sell the rare loot you find in bunkers or extractions to other players? Not Casual

[@mlx1363]

I'm tempted to say that mining or salvage are much more complex and subtle gameplays loops than PvP combat. The dogfighting, especially since Master Modes, is just a nice arcade game for angry kids. The fps is barely more complex, but nothing new since Counter Strike.

[@wolf826]

I am medicore pve player & i dont like open pvp, i like style in elite dangerous. Open play, group play, solo play and player activity is shared in all game modes.

[@nilsgerdes6747]

I don't get that. Why are some people bothered that someone isn't gaming on their idea of gaming? It doesn't affect you, it doesn't change anything, you just went out of your way to be a dick to someone else and call them a "casual". People need to stop and try to change things to their belief alone. This game does something and that game does something else and I can choose. If I made a bad choice, well tough luck, that's how it goes sometimes. It's not like it costs that much to try a game. And specially Star Citizen does an amazing job to offer everything. I don't play multiplayer games, because I cannot always be there for the team and don't have hours on hours on hand to play. Life DOES happen and as such I don't want to commit all that time for gaming (although I do every time I can), so it's singleplayer games for me. Buuuut Star citizen gives me the option to do my stuff and doesn't commit me to any multiplayer activities. Sure, I was pirated and it was annoying and frustrating but we had a great conversation afterwards. the thing is we all have options and this game offers a lot of more options. Stop whining about how others play the game in the many ways the game allows it, nobody cares and you look ridiculous. Unless they're cheating, in that case burn down their house or something. All that being said, I've never been called anything in game. Also never felt the need to insult or force my will on anybody. Because I'm happy and balanced 😁 Insults and harassment never get to me. If all you have to say to me are insults, then your word and by that extension your existence is meaningless to me and you're cut off (block listed, ignored etc). But people and circumstances are different and I know people legitimately struggle with this. Bringing this up was a great idea and may prove invaluable to some. Good stuff, well done!

[@Rakadur]

sc has the capability to cater to (almost) every kind of space sim enjoyer, trying to gatekeep anyone from having fun is just damaging for the community and the game

[@Farrister]

Agreed!

[@loco240]

My son and I were talking about MMOs and just by coincidence we both said at the same time "The big problem with MMOs is the other players." And unfortunately, Star Citizen is just like all the others in that respect. NPCs follow algorithms and have a behavioral envelope that can be made as difficult as the developer wants it to be. NPC ships with limitless ammo and shields comes to mind immediately, NPC rammers right after that. No, that's not desync or server lag, that's NPCs who intentionally ram to keep the player from completing the mission. So the player has to start over and spend a lot more time playing the game. Ok, fine, that's what they want. Other players are human, with all the behavioral complexity that humans are capable of. Sorry to say, but true, creeps and jerks are very over represented in the gamer population. Star Citizen is just like all the others in that respect. Maybe 10 years ago it wasn't, but those days are long gone.

[@friendlyspacedragon7250]

Yep. There should be better PvE content but due to the combination of server performance and CIG not working on it yet we don't have anything beyond basic missions that work when they feel like it. And yes, some level of casual friendliness is necessary. You need to be able to do something meaningful within reasonable time alone, not only after several hours of organizing your group for a mission. And that risk v reward should work for ALL players. Not just industrialists. A pirate wants better loot? Well, there's the high security systems. Pyro ain't getting better than miners and explorers. I'm not against a PvE server but a better solution would be a robust law system. Unfortunately that too is coming soon™.

[@Farrister]

Lots of unknowns for now, but as you say, lots of potential solutions too

[@klaramukaida]

Maybe with the death of a spaceman and insurances will be implemented many people will think twice before engage useless combat or killing risking to lose a ship or life

[@Farrister]

Possibly!

[@alandab]

Just lime Pearl Abyss/BDO had to learn, CIG will also learn that PvP will be the death of this game, unless it's Opt in/Opt out.

[@o2thej408]

Star Citizen is much more of a PvS game.. it’s player vs. server all the way.

[@neilnunn2529]

Yes I get killed way more by server issues than by players especially during event times and the servers are more of an issue then.. Higher kill rate than other players all the way..

[@Farrister]

Haha too true!

[@Ace-Brigade]

I fully am behind both PVE and PVP and I am a almost exclusively PVE player who very much wants the PVP players in there to bring the excitement to the other game loops. People on spectrum that try to dehumanize "The other side" are the real problem. People who joined this game and should have known full well that it includes PvP going around trying to modify the game for the rest of us who have invested sometimes tens of thousands of dollars need to get their head checked.

[@slybericic4691]

PVP among consenting players is the only form of PVP. Anything else is griefing. Attacking an Aurora with your F8 is not PVP.

[@larrymitchell6470]

PvE hardly means casual. I played in hardcore raid guilds in my past, that’s PvE events and I promise you we were more hardcore than PvP. You can have casual PvP as well, hell you can have casual anything… Hardcore means you want to focus hard on only one aspect and dabble in others. PvE want to focus on PvE. PvP want to focus on PvP. It’s why WoW created Battlegrounds and Arena tournaments (hence we have Arena Commander). PvE has some guard rails to allow lore to progress and focus hard on story and not allow others to disrupt that. Doom Lord Kazak in WoW is a non-instanced PvE encounter and open to trolling but there are no giant beacons going out to all saying “HEY!!! RAID BOSS IS UP!!” Because it is a crap show. CIG is stupid to not leverage all these years of analytics from Blizzard and its multi billion dollar generating MMO.

[@Farrister]

WoW is a good example of hardcore PvE

[@axm2689]

Oh look…a balanced non-hysterical view, how refreshing. Cue the cringe “react” videos!

[@Farrister]

Haha

[@phoenixsui]

In the eyes of some guys. They are allowed to kill everything on sight and the excuse is everyone has the chance to be in a big org playing exclusivly with huge protection. And in the same time they steal a Idris and go oneshot the cargoship before any amount of escort could ever kill them. Not sure if they are trolling or just dumb. I think a lot of people dont understand that a whole lot of PvE stuff still is not ingame yet and will switch the amount of pvp compared to pve into a minority. Pyro iwll be no fun except for those who want to kill on sight and pvp. On the testserers it was painfully clear that you cant even leave the hub if CIG allows it. You wil complete nothing there and just run for your live. Abort any acitivy as you wont make it far without seeing a player that surely is so paranoid he will shoot you even if you have no gun on you. CIG needs to adress the reputation and law system soon. For now i think pvp should be in dedicated events and not in the whole system. I only got robbed once all other pvp encounters were griefers as someone who tires to avoid pvp. And i never got attacked in a fighter ship. only in industrial or civilian ships. Most "pvper" are cowards and just attack defensless enemys to boost their ego or troll or whatever.