Raid and M+ TANK RANKINGS for The War Within Release | TWW S1 Meta Predictions

[@seth3681]

What excites me most for tanking in TWW is that none of the CC’s are ranking the specs the same which to me says that balance is in a good place where preference is having a more influential role

[@Tactyks]

100%, always nice to have a season where tank balance is close across the board, hoping it continues that way!

[@MrCattlehunter]

When people make bad predictions, what that means is that they're clueless. It's easy to look at statistics and describe them correctly. You can just see bear, or whatever, doing the best and go, "yeah, bear is best". And then make up some reasons for why it might be that bear is best, that's just rationalizing this result after the fact, working backwards from the conclusion. But making predictions requires you actually understand what you're talking about. So this is putting that to the test. The people who end up making wrong predictions? That means they didn't actually know what they were talking about. And they probably still don't know what they're talking about in the future either. Understanding that last part is how you weed out bad advice from your experience and stop falling for it when boys cry wolf all the time.

[@BasedChadman]

We can assume prot pally needs some help, though, since everyone agrees on that

[@craynak]

@@BasedChadmanWe are the only tank that still runs out of mana around 3 minutes of a fight which is madness!

[@CharlieVictor212]

It’s engagement bait. You fell for it and so did I.

[@cheeseorwhatever]

interesting that some of the tank tier lists from top players have been so different, if anything it's a sign that tank balance is really good at the moment. I'm planning on blood dk next season (also my first season tanking) so I wanted to be salty about its placement but I think it's fair. Been playing various tanks quite a bit on beta and I'd say it's the most rewarding tank to me. Sometimes I feel like I have to work a little harder for the same results on another spec but there's no feeling in the game for me quite like a big blood dk pull where you're fully locked in sweating every global. Blood DK always goes through this cycle of looks strong on beta where it hasn't really been tested in bleeding edge keys. It's design makes it hard to tune survivability-wise in m+ and it's either broken like legion/SL s4 or somewhere in the mid/strong in good hands range like it was in DF.

[@Tactyks]

Definitely think tank balance is in a solid spot and hoping it stays that way! Totally agree on BDK feeling very rewarding when you pull off hard pulls, and honestly I think for the vast majority of players it won't even run into the issues I'm talking about in this video, so it's probably a pretty good pick for people looking to just PUG and get portals, maybe push to +12ish and then stop there.

[@drac5027]

LFG!!! thanks for the insight and all the testing youve done this beta cycle

[@Tactyks]

No problem at all, happy to help!

[@surin9030]

Thank you genuinely for the google doc. I’m a Returning tank, hoping to touch keystone master every season. I’ll be with you for the long haul. Can’t wait!!! One more week!!!

[@Tactyks]

Of course! Welcome back friend, hope you enjoy the launch :)

[@brick548]

WoW content is so interesting - literally have watched multiple videos with inverted tier lists.

[@Tactyks]

Tier list season baby. That being said I actually think tank balance is relatively close, and the context of lists can change the rankings. For example, a list focused on the best tank to PUG keys on would be different than mine. Assumptions made could also be impactful, like how I mentioned taking into account the strength of other specs that bring the same buff in the raid section. If that wasn't a consideration it would probably look a bit different. The most important thing to remember always is that every single tank spec can do all content in the game, from KSM to Cutting Edge raiding, so play what you have the most fun playing!

[@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk]

I want to add the AOE Fear ect removal for warrior. Our berserker rage can become an AOE removal for the group. ANd there is allot of effects that it can remove. Saving a group with that is not uncommon.

[@Tactyks]

That's definitely a worthy mention, specifically strong on the first boss in Mists or on the trash at the start of Stonevault!

[@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk]

@@Tactyks When I use it it blew peoples mind like "How did we get out of this?" lol! Feels really good to "execute" that well. Get it? XD

[@Tactyks]

@@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk Boooo

[@Starburstjuicy]

Hi Tactyks a blood dk main and enjoyer for most if not all of my Tanking since Legion and I can see Bdk before this x-pac getting one shot but I find it rare if not almost non existent now with how the keys are designed and also seen recently that Kira managed to do a +15 NW without a Aug even and time it. Idk how blood will be compared to raid buffs me personally raid buffs should be disabled in m+ if they are making such a big degree on what classes are meta due to that but imo with seeing Kira able to do a +15 which is super high key level in TWW I'm saying that any of these tanks can push easily beyond key title keys just more of what you enjoy and your skill with it. I'm a huge fan and been watching you since early SL I hope your doing great man and appericate any videos u put out!. There is always a view or tips I can learn from them :)

[@Tactyks]

100% I think every single tank will be more than fine for title level keys, but imo it'll be a bit more challenging for BDK. Personally I don't think keys are designed so differently in terms of tank damage intake when it comes to things BDK are scared of, so if you were worried about getting one shot in DF I think it's the same for TWW. That doesn't mean it's impossible though, and Kira is one of the best tanks in the world so I expect him to be able to make it look easy, but its certainly riskier than some of the other tanks, especially when 1 wipe = deplete with the changes to death timers.

[@dancoffman8889]

Necrotic Wake does have a Control Undead guy: Stitched Vanguard. It's doing a lot of damage on Beta.

[@Tactyks]

I figured there was one in there, I could only remember the axe thrower guy but thats a humanoid so you need priest MC for it.

[@Idkidkidkidk456]

my hot take it that after tuning pala will be on top. just how dungeons work with avenger shield

[@Tactyks]

Honestly if they catch a decent buff I can totally see it, the interrupts are INSANE value this season.

[@KevinMcCoy87]

Thanks for all the content, it's been super helpful throughout DF. I have no idea what I'm going for season 1 after finally having the full freedom of choice for Raid (6 seasons of filling missing raid buff) and it's too close to call right now. I do hope my raid main will be my mythic+ push toon cause it'll be so much easier to get 630+. Feels like a good problem to have though all tanks pretty close (surely prot paladin defensive buff inc) and just gonna dabble with all of them in first 18 days lol. Every tank has something I love so hope some tuning and hero talents help me narrow it down.

[@Tactyks]

No problem at all! Definitely have a similar idea, it's hard to pick now so I'll probably level 4-5 tanks and decide later hahaha

[@Bzk--]

If you like all tanks and want to pick a spec that shines in both raid and m+ I think your safest bet will be guardian druid. Personally I dont like it much so i'll be playing monk and war, monk cause i havent played it since BfA and wanna experience the rework, and war cause the Hero talents look interesting to me.

[@narrator589]

Blood DK will always be the king of raids , at season 3 for Amirdrasil raid , DK tanks could solo the whole raid

[@Tactyks]

Oh yeah, damage not infinitely scaling beyond what BDK can handle means they are unkillable and their damage output is looking very good in combination with their grips!

[@voraciousvlad]

I think you're right but Blood DKs will get buffed and then when you hit that era where players become overgeared they'll be dominant as per usual.

[@Tactyks]

Yeah things can definitely change with tank tuning, might revisit this later on if there are any changes after heroic week/RWF is over.

[@17nisse]

im leaning for prot warr , how they feel in keys right now is so insane and like u said tank busting abilitys able to block is just game changing and will prob play it in raids aswell cus off the ST dmg

[@Tactyks]

Mountain Thane in keys feels absolutely amazing, definitely gonna be part of the Thane Gang in season 1!

[@17nisse]

@@Tactyks yea , most why im going to main it cus it's fun , and a really good work out with the apm xD

[@Tactyks]

@@17nisse Hahaha very true, been debating moving my Ignore Pain bind to my mousewheel to make it a bit easier :P

[@17nisse]

@@Tactyks haha , using shield block on nr 1 , ignore pain on 3 and thunder clap on 2 , shield slam on E so i just roll my fingers xD

[@yaintwrong]

Shield block mswheel up and ignore pain mswheel down. I just started tanking but I use those for ogcd defensives now 😂

[@pashdude76]

Been playing my Guardian Druid since BC - now toying with the idea of using my DK alt as my main as it's packing more punch - not sure how long before Blizzard alter things but as it stands - I am confused with all the differing opinions out there. Think I will be waiting and playing both before making a decision which I will be going with in the expansion.

[@Tactyks]

Expansion starts are always more up in the air than regular seasons, probably smart to have a couple options ready hahaha

[@Gumblethebear]

Bear-Aug-Mage-Shadow-RSham or Bear-Fury-FDK-Muti-RSham Both feel very good

[@puppetface7827]

I think, you had to have been doing the testing before the 60% HP increase, i was also getting instantly purga popped in dungeons like stonevault as low as 6-8s+ before the change, i honestly believe that since the large HP increase, that didn't have a following mob damage increase, I'm not running into initial damage being too high, and they're safely doing 15+ keys with the uncapped ilvl and 60% HP increase. i felt bear is overall very tanky, but they keep nerfing arcane damage which just worries me about their DPS. i'am curious as to your feeling on other content creators all putting prot warrior in S (like dorki) I also find that there's no way high keys use prot warrior it has a lack of mob control/Utility even with the 24sec shockwave, just isn't going to fit the meta, like I just don't get them all thinking prot war could be S and feel like your ranking fits better.

[@Tactyks]

To clarify, the entire beta cycle has been with the 60% HP increase, they only talked about it after the tank nerfs but its not like that was when they were activated. And it's not that BDK can't survive higher keys, it's just that the danger is significantly higher for them compared to a tank like Prot Warrior as an example. In terms of what Prot Warrior brings, the control/utility is kind of irrelevant imo as you always will just take the best specs and make it work, the bigger problem is that if they aren't a key level better than other tanks and it's a caster meta, you're just better off taking a tank that will actually provide a buff that is useful (like VDH/Bear). I do think Pwar is probably the most durable tank at the moment, which could be impactful and it's why they're my sleeper pick, but we'll have to see.

[@robertrobinson1966]

Gotnmy Brewmaster ready for pvp and PVE content. Mostly pvp

[@ZBshadow]

My biggest issue is so much of your opinion for this tier list was damage output driven. More damage is good but it's not the primary focus of a tank and I think that is where some of the difference between your tier list and some of the more involved raid and m+ CC list is.

[@Tactyks]

When looking at the highest level of content in both raid and M+, it's just the reality (whether people agree with it or not) that damage is a huge factor in all your decisions, whether that be personal damage or damage gained by bringing a raid buff. Durability across the board is a lot more consistent than damage output, at least going into season 1, so unless there's a tank spec that can live an entire extra key level over the tanks that bring more damage (which currently looks unlikely) it's not going to be a large consideration. Tanks find a way to live, thats part of the job, so if you can live while doing significantly more damage or bringing more utility you'll do that. With all that said, if I were to remake this list for PUG tanking I think it would be a bit different, something like BDK for example not needing to rely on a healer unlike some other specs is extremely useful, or Prot Warrior being a bit easier in terms of mitigation management and therefore feeling a lot sturdier in general makes them great choices for a lot of players. But when living is already expected of you, which it is at a higher level of content, then other things become more important.

[@davidgreenberg8456]

Hello, I just looked at your awesome ability tracking sheet and I think it would help to differentiate between frontals that lock to a specific location and frontals that follow the tank.

[@Tactyks]

Usually I mention it in the "Notes" section, but could potentially look into adjusting the main block to include text in the future.

[@davidgreenberg8456]

@@Tactyks oh sorry, I did not even notice the text there on my screen xD

[@Tactyks]

@@davidgreenberg8456 It's pretty far over so totally fair!

[@blackyvertigo]

interesting tier list given that in the beta logs for mythic+ nobody was using guardian. it was bdd/vdh/prot warr in that order.

[@Tactyks]

We must've been looking at different betas then

[@verdantia]

i will stay warrior cuz thats how i play and its been fine for 3100 so far.

[@Tactyks]

A great choice, Mountain Thane has been super fun on the beta and frankly every single tank spec in the game is more than fine for the vast majority of content so you gotta play what you enjoy!

[@longleg420]

What do you think the hardest tank is to play in high keys (mechanically and mitigation complexity)?

[@Tactyks]

VDH is probably the most complex in terms of mitigation, as its all about layering and managing the uptime of several different defensives. Mechnically is hard to say as I don't think any of the tanks are super complex rotationally, maybe Brew still has the most nuance? Not sure honestly.

[@longleg420]

@@Tactyks Thanks for the answer and great vid!

[@Tactyks]

@@longleg420 No problem, glad you enjoyed it!

[@SuperGtimk5]

100% brew with prot war alt will be pushing keys on both classes for sure. I would be dumb to not main brew when its the best its felt in a long time and prot just feel really good

[@Tactyks]

Oh yeah, as someone who hasn't been a big fan of brew in the past I've really been enjoying it on the beta!

[@artug92]

@@Tactyks what are some of the things that you enjoy the most on brew? Can you give a quick TLDR on what changed or improved?

[@Dontmess33]

Thanks Tactyks great vid and info here!

[@Tactyks]

No problem at all, happy to help!

[@mauriciocipres1061]

Hey man (or anyone with this knowledge really), considering magic effects on mobs throughout the dungeons, do you think it would be worth it to switch from Night Elf to Blood Elf VDH just for the racial?

[@Tactyks]

Unlikely, a lot of the magic buffs aren't super impactful plus multiple classes can bring a purge if needed, whereas shadowmeld still has decent value in a lot of places

[@mauriciocipres1061]

@@Tactyks awesome, thank you. Keeping my NE edgelord lol Plus Night elves look better lol

[@Tactyks]

@@mauriciocipres1061 Happy to help!

[@wfcaires]

Hey! What do you think is the ceiling for a bdk, in terms of survivability on m+?

[@Tactyks]

I think a BDK can definitely still get the 0.1% title, it's just a bit harder to do than some of the other tank specs.

[@DustyDemise]

Are WW and MW desirable enough to take a raid spot over Brew?

[@Tactyks]

WW definitely is looking solid at least based on my information, MW I'm not sure as I've heard mixed things. In general though if a raid group is lacking a MW or WW for whatever reason then Brew is a perfectly acceptable tank to play and won't hold you back, it just may not be the 100% best/most optimal option in a perfect raid comp.

[@ryangardner7709]

Looks like I’m going back to 🐻

[@Tactyks]

BEAR GANG

[@Defocus_]

Blood DK is the top Tank for Pugs

[@Tactyks]

Yeah not needing to rely on a healer at all is definitely nice when you don't know what you're getting each dungeon!

[@onkek]

Yay Tactyks, yay! Appreciate the content as always.

[@Tactyks]

Of course, glad you enjoy it!

[@thekarmazone.]

Prot pally for life

[@Tactyks]

PINK GANG

[@johnmcgahey16]

I honestly don’t care what’s meta. I’m playing BDK regardless of your blatant hatred of them 😂

[@Tactyks]

I respect it! Also to be fair I think for the VAST majority of players BDK is actually a great pick, especially if you're pugging a lot. The tank changes can definitely be rough for some specs that are more healer reliant, and BDK can still entirely self-sustain so you never need to worry about that.

[@mattcyr2109]

This might be a stupid question, but you constantly said "higher keys" is that like 7-10 or like 12 + haha ( Specifically about DK if its relative )

[@Tactyks]

Definitely a fair question! Usually it depends on who is saying it, for me I'm referencing keys in the 0.1% title range, so +15s and up. If you're looking at any keys up until then I think every tank spec is completely fine and shouldn't severely struggle outside of misplays.

[@dgcavalheri]

​@@Tactyksit's a huge important question. I always see some keys with the title "meta's only" and the key is a 7+. The people don't understand that the meta only matters in competitive scenarios.

[@Tactyks]

@@dgcavalheri 100%, for the vast majority of key levels spec doesn't matter at all, just the player!

[@artug92]

@@dgcavalheri those are the people that make the game toxic, they are doing a shit ass key and want to be carried.

[@DavidCaddock]

As a Prot Paladin main seeing Vengeance meta again: I'm tired boss. I've begrudgingly leveled a warrior during the pre patch to have an alternative.

[@peaceinthemiddleeast]

They are all in the best position equally. Most beta mythic players weren't using Veng. It's taking a lot of DMG but does more DMG than the others.

[@Tactyks]

I wouldn't call Veng a lock for being meta again, it's looking good for sure but a lot can change if all of a sudden physical DPS start getting picked over casters!

[@peaceinthemiddleeast]

@@Tactyks you stated vgh less dmg than the other tanks?, or did I misunderstand as most people are saying the opp

[@Tactyks]

@@peaceinthemiddleeast No for M+ I said VDH is the highest damage you can bring from the tank role

[@peaceinthemiddleeast]

@@Tactyks 😘

[@TheRabbit68]

Does the Choas Brand nerf affect this at all?

[@Tactyks]

Not massive but it does give a slight edge to Guardian over VDH with mark of the wild being relatively more powerful

[@leetackett7879]

where can we find the tank route guide?

[@Tactyks]

Will be dropping the route guide the weekend before S1 starts! In the meantime though dungeon guides will start releasing next week.

[@j.r.6271]

Prot Warriors!!! I'll be playing DotC Bear and Fel-Scarred Veng. as #2 & #3, after Prot. Both Guardian and Druid class tree are still annoying but atleast now dispel is accessible.

[@Tactyks]

That is a solid trio!

[@akxeros5895]

so as a newbie in tanking (but still veteran in wow since wotlk) vdh or big bear? :D cannot decide

[@Tactyks]

Would definitely say bear is a bit more beginner friendly since it's easier to understand the mitigation, but if you like the theme/playstyle of VDH better then you'll probably be better off playing that!

[@akxeros5895]

@@Tactyks ty

[@Tactyks]

No problem!

[@cookiemanprime9511]

Hi, ty so much for your help on the tank updates, really helping to give an understanding of each tank. But I just have something I don't understand, won't every tank have the gaps between its cooldowns?

[@Tactyks]

Gaps in cooldowns yes, gap in powerful mitigation not necessarily. For example, Shield Block can be maintained at 100% uptime for Prot Warriors, which massively mitigates physical damage, which is most of the damage you're taking in M+. VDH on the other hand doesnt have mitigation like this, they instead need to chain Demon Spikes, Fiery Brand, and Meta, however even spreading those abilities out you will sometimes have moments where non of them are active, which is where they start running into problems.

[@cookiemanprime9511]

@Tactyks ah I see, so VDH may suffer with pugs, this will be a problem as I play with pugs all the time😢

[@cookiemanprime9511]

@Tactyks Appreciate your insight so much, will help me reconsider my choice for season 1, thank you so much😁

[@Tactyks]

@@cookiemanprime9511 Happy to help!

[@Tactyks]

@@cookiemanprime9511 Potentially, but more that it takes a bit more personal skill and spec knowledge compared to other tanks to rotate your defensives properly and be aware of when you need to kite to survive

[@crazyzero008]

What do you recommend as a pug only tank?

[@Tactyks]

Honestly for PUG tanking it's gotta be whatever you're most comfortable on/interested in as that's what people usually perform the best on. Some specs have certain advantages, like BDK and not needing to rely on a healer, Ppal and their interrupts, etc, but assuming there's no extremely dominant tank (which is looks like there won't be) I'm hopeful that the tank meta will be a bit more flexible than recent seasons, especially because its the first season of an expansion.

[@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk]

Guardian druid. tanky, insanely easy to play. Heal yourself. Brez.

[@Bzk--]

I play in a top 200 CE guild with the occasional HoF title here and there, my co-tank is a bdk one trick pony, so i picked monk and war just due to personal preference. I dislike paladin with a passion, never liked druid, and played vdh for the past year, so yeah. Thanks for the video!

[@Tactyks]

No problem! Definitely think all tanks are totally fine picks for raid depending on what buffs your group needs, tank balance is actually quite good overall so I had to be a bit more nitpicky to actually divide them into tiers.

[@LuuLBV]

You putting BDK in B tier for m+ made me stop watching the video because if you really think prot pala is better, I’m deleting wow. 15s in beta are done with bdks so far, paladins can barely survive 12s… You are a blood main and you want to push other tanks into the nerf bat. Must be that!

[@DubElementMusic]

BDK is good für mi keys, but not for pushing high keys

[@SmugHomura]

not saying he's right or wrong bit historically BDK has barely ever performed well on the highest of keys. What happens on beta isn't always reflective of what happens in S1 since we still have a balance patch to go. It could very well be that BDK is overtuned at will be the best tank in the season but this is a prediction video. He clearly states that apart from surviving he thinks BDK doesn't bring a lot to the table compared to Paladin and if paladin gets buffed in the Heroic week patch (which is somewhat likely given how much people clown on Prot paladin right now) it's very easy for Paladin to overtake BDK.

[@victorearly1215]

your list is basically inverted between M+ and raid ⁉

[@Tactyks]

Yup, tanks in general are all pretty close and just the value of raid buffs/strength of other specs that bring the same one have different impacts in raid vs M+

[@luanoliveira819]

How does Brew feel? I have been a brew main since Shadowlands and I am scared playing Brew in pugs

[@Tactyks]

I've really been enjoying Brew on beta, big fan of it after the rework!

[@maggru91]

I'm thinking about brew or bdk. Did bdk in season 3 of DF when i last played and got my 3k which was the goal. But want to try something else and brew just feels amazing to play. And with the blizzard philosophy of moving power towards healers away from tanks, who benefits from that more than brew? And the sustain actually feels decent, if going by tank dummy numbers I can push 190 stacks on my bdk 480 ilvl and 160 on my brew 480ilvl, so not terrible. Expel harm healing is huge, and with the rework of the free vivify ever 10s that only costs 8 energy it certainly helps. Don't know if TWW changes the relative healing expel and vivify does, like does our hp outscale our healing by a lot at 80?

[@Tactyks]

Gear in general does have ~60% more stamina going into TWW compared to DF, so your HP pool is going to skyrocket as you start gaining new pieces once the expansion launches, which will hurt the overall output of those attack power based heals. That being said I still think Brew is a solid pick, been enjoying it a lot myself, but the sustain in my experience is a bit lacking compared to some of the other tanks on beta.

[@maggru91]

@@Tactyks Ouch

[@Tactyks]

Yeah it's definitely a bit painful for a lot of self-healing spells

[@maggru91]

@@Tactyks Bdk it is then, got the best transmogs anyway and that is a major part of picking a main :)

[@Tactyks]

@@maggru91 Transmog is the true endgame

[@mksteele99]

RIP DPS DK for next tier with Blood DK being so good; I hate this game

[@berkbuyukhelvac8510]

demon s tier and dk is b tier? BUHAUUHAHUAHAU

[@weirdodude1173]

If demon hunters could be vulpera (or anything apart from a freaking elf) I would play vengeance. Until then I'm sticking with bear! Blood DK's getting a reality check is good. Thumbs up.

[@Tactyks]

Oh man seeing a vulpera demon hunter gliding around would actually be so funny, I'm here for it.

[@EssenceOfTrance]

Blood DK's getting a reality check! Lmfao. You really want another season of VDH being the absolute best don't you?

[@Kavaren]

Lol to paraphrase “prot paladins tank raids well” No they do not. They support the good tank. But this is also conditional on them outgearing the DK because they are better at dungeons. This is not the case this time. Paladins raided well because they tanked well and had unique ability to save others - sac for worse, spellward may or may not be good, WoG is struggling. Unless the fight requires that they won’t be used. Paladins take so much damage, health is low, cooldowns all nerfed. Unless Blizz remembers that it nerfed them harder than anyone else + didn’t touch them at all during the recent balance tuning it’s a wrap; there could be an intervention, but unless they rework it a lot - something that could go very wrong - it’s the purest copium the dealers are selling It could also be that Blood isn’t relevant at all - Frost is great -and you have the tanks just for the raid buffs. This would also disqualify paladins. Paladin healer is the spot. Monk healer is the spot, dps spec ain’t bad. Vengeance has the buff but Havoc ain’t bad. Warrior is tough and Intervene looks it’s very relevant, but also the dps spec is good. There’s less of a gap between raids and m+ performance than ever - as a shorthand you could evaluate tanks purely on their dps contribution, raw mitigation stability, and sustain

[@sayo1777]

.

[@Tactyks]

New world record

[@cr1spbeatzplz]

😂😂😂😂

[@scottadavis8086]

I don’t know man, I been raiding heroic with my brewmaster. Been doing it for the past 2 seasons. The other tank is a pally.

[@Tactyks]

Oh for sure, my list is more targeted at Hall of Fame guilds as heroic is more than doable by every spec in the game!

[@scottadavis8086]

@@Tactyks just like up to 15s key wise are if you know how to play them