650 vs 450 grain Momentum at 60 yards

[@johnchristensen7079]

Why does a long range rifle hunter shoot a high BC bullet, and you put a bow in his hand and all the sudden the lightest arrow seems like the best Idea?

[@RanchFairy]

It is an interesting conundrum

[@JonathanD-hx8cm]

Hmmmm. Do you shoot a long range rifle. I shoot a 6.5-300 weatherby. Unless I'm shooting over 200 yards I will choose the 127 or 129 gr LRX or Hammer over the 156 Berger. The berger blows up and can deflect and/or give poor penetration. I also have monkey arms, pulling 31" at 80 lbs. Would you call my 485gr, 250 spine arrow traveling 308 FPS a twizzler stick. Do you think it would penetrate less than a 700 grain arrow at 40 and under... I hunt whitetail and that is about as far as I get a chance to shoot. Would be like taking a 30-06 to hunt prairie dogs and shooting under a bridge. At some point that 30-06 with all the momentum is useless because you can't shoot under the obstruction any longer, your little 223 becomes the weapon of choice. As Troy says, it's a trade off.... just seems like the emotion doesn't allow him to really believe that. For the average shooter, and especially for the increasing community pulling 70 - 80 lbs, for what reason would I shoot 700 grains? I understand the math, but my trade off would be reduced range due to arrow arch and shot consistency.

[@reidzr2s10]

I shoot a 675 grain arrow and there is very little difference in arrow arch when I made the switch to the heavy arrow. I never moved my 20 yard pin and barely moved the 30 yard pin and the 40 yard pin slightly more than the 30. You gotta try it before you knock it. Maybe it’s your arrow launcher if you have tried it and have that much arch in the heavy arrows? Absolutely you will get less penetration with the 485 than the 700 when you hit bone.

[@talisikid1618]

You can’t shoot an arrow fast enough to make high velocity relevant. So, you make do with mass. Simple. Penetration is goal.

[@blaydenzahner9379]

How about a video on how high the arrows are casting. I would assume most hunters hunt in the woods and there's these things called trees and they have branches . Then you have all the bushes and Vines. A 700 grain arrow on a 70-yard shot goes about 30 feet up before coming down how many branches do you think you're going to hit?

[@winstonc.2509]

Haters gonna hate Troy, keep pluggin’.

[@TheArrowBuilder]

Just out of curiosity - how do you separate out what is "hate" and what is genuinely pointing out where he might be wrong?

[@observed00]

Five pins from 20 to 60 yards on my compound shooting a 650 grain arrow. It's not an issue that I can't hunt at longer range. I shoot 675 grain arrows out of a 35Lb bare bow; point blank (no gap) is 35 yards with that setup. Stalking skills reduce arrow arc. If I ever get into target archery I'll build some lighter arrows. The heavy ones offer no disadvantage for the way I hunt.

[@ClintonSmith-op5gb]

Same here. I just set my pins accordingly.

[@kurtmeister8308]

Great video. I'm a trad guy, and my velocities are a bit lower, but the results are MORE applicable. I like your use of momentum vs energy. If you do the Math ( i'm a Mech Engineer and a ballistician) you get a couple of double whamy's when going light and fast vs heavy and medium speed. You nail it on the momentum at the target, but there is a second effect. A faster light arrow uses much more energy to penetrate a given thickness of critter than a heavier arrow. That is, the resistance to penetration goes up as the square of the velocity at impact. An arrow going 20% faster experiences 44% more resistance to penetration than a comparative slower arrow. That's why guys can get full penetration out of a 45 or 50 lb recurve shooting a heavy arrow vs some shooting 60 to 70 lb compounds shooting light arrows, even though the energy (but not the momentum) of the latter is much higher. if you ever want to walk the math, give a shout. Again, thanks for the great videos and practical applications . All good.. PS. I'm quite sure my form sucks lol

[@jamesseed1752]

Very well said sir, I like you're knowledge about the subject and you trad guys are a whole different animal, major props to you all.

[@waynemorris1999]

@@kurtmeister8308 is this the same reason a subsonic bullet penetrates water better that a supersonic one?

[@kurtmeister8308]

@@waynemorris1999 as they say, it depends. Bullets deform and a lot as they get faster in a liquid medium. That changes things a lot. Ashby did a study with 22Hornet vs 22-250 and says the Hornet out penetrates the 22-250. If the same test were to be conducted with steel penetrators, result would likely be different. All that said, at arrow velocities and energies, higher momentum beats higher energy for penetration on the physics

[@Pygex]

This just confirms the basic physics. Momentum is p=mv. Let us forget about the fact that bows are more efficient in pushing heavier arrows and assume the energy to be identical. A heavy arrow gets less velocity while a light arrow gets a high velocity but momentum (p) is the same. The resisting forces (air drag) however scale with the square of the velocity so... The more velocity you have to begin with, the more you have to lose as the mass isn't going to disappear. We ain't shooting rockets here.

[@ThirdLawPair]

Interestingly, in the test he's talking about where he compares the drop with a heavy versus light arrow at a 5-yard misjudge, he got the exact same result you would get with a trajectory calculator. Even goes on to say that the math is useless when he produced the same result the math would predict.

[@jons7e]

"stupid, but not a dumbass".... that's a t-shirt. SO many applications

[@theafricanalluresouthafrica]

It is very simple “learn to shoot the trajectory” - good vid🏹

[@JonathanD-hx8cm]

Spoken like an open country hunter. I guess I need to stay out of the thick stuff and just hunt the field edges?

[@theafricanalluresouthafrica]

@@JonathanD-hx8cm Actually I am all for the heavier stuff - just many struggle with shooting them because of the Pin-gap - if your stuff is sighted you can use a 2000grn arrow and it will land where you put the pin but many of the fast light arrow shooters want minimal pin gap to avoid learning to shoot trajectory. PS. I am in Africa - very little Open country hunting in my part of the world - it is normally close and hairy with horn, tooth or claw

[@frankhorn8327]

Troy - I look forward to the trajectory comparison video when you make it. I think there will be some interesting visual comparisons that most folks are not counting on. Keep up the good work !

[@RanchFairy]

Those videos are already up. Last couple months -

[@PersonalBestOutdoors]

As always, Troy... you're in fine form with this one. Remember the golf ball and the ping pong ball against the glass... You could post that video, and people would say you don't throw right. Keep bringing the facts. Those of us that care and can think for ourselves appreciate all you do.

[@christopherwatson283]

You can compare an object 1000 times heavier to one that has insignificant mass if you want to. Like a baseball to a wadded piece of paper to explain the differences between N09 Bird Shot to No2 BB's. I'm not going with a slower 30-30 with a heavy slug when I have a light loaded 30.06. Shooting slow hurts your Range Judging. I've killed Deer with 350 grain arrows out of a 70 lb High Country Supreme at 276 FPS most likely before most commenting on this vid have been alive. Adding Weight does not add momentum when it slows the projectile down. Fast or Slow the Momentum is basically the same when leaving the Bow. Fast Arrows don't slow down as fast as he's leading on.

[@PersonalBestOutdoors]

@christopherwatson283 your 350gn arrow traveling 320fps reaches the deer before the sound does? That's impressive. Considering the speed of sound is 343m/s in dry air at 20*C. That one comment says more than anything else you've written.

[@christopherwatson283]

@@PersonalBestOutdoors I don't yack about the string jumpers slick. I'm running 375 FPS now a days. Have you even shot a Deer/Critter with a Bow? My 80 lb. Darton Viper Graphite was the 400 grain bomb at 291 FPS in 96. I don't shoot over 55 yards. So, Yeah. They don't have enough time to react unless they see you. Like I don't know the speed of sound is faster. Lob on. You might get one with a bow.

[@PersonalBestOutdoors]

​@christopherwatson283 the amount of utter and complete nonsense that you type kind of makes me feel empathy for you. I don't think you know what momentum truly is. I've tried educating you so many times, and I have lost the ability to try any longer. Numbers don't lie. Shoot your light arrow over the chrono. Save this number. Now multiply that number by the weight of your arrow in grains. THAT IS THE MOMENTUM OF YOUR ARROW. You cannot dispute that. It is what it is. Now put a 300gn point on the front of that same arrow, shoot it over the chrono. Yes, it moves slower. Now multiply the new speed times the weight of the new arrow. Tell me which number is higher. I promise you, the heavier arrow HAS MORE MOMENTUM. If you don't believe me, try it. I encourage it. Arguing an absolute fact only makes you appear incompetent regardless of how many words you type, or how many times you regurgitate the same factually INACCURATE anecdotal responses. Leave your last word below.

[@PersonalBestOutdoors]

@@christopherwatson283 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ I give up

[@davehalm7362]

Thanks for makin sense for us common folk RF🤘 The twizzler / flapper guys will never learn and are to stubborn to change. Keep up the good work!!

[@poplardeer]

Its almost like youre saying what happens when the arrow makes impact with the thing I'm trying to kill is more important than the speed rating it has as its leaving the bow? It astounds me that the light arrow crowd are more concerned with 2-3" of drop they could account for more than any mentioned of penetration they arent getting.

[@davidholliday2703]

When the African bushman was asked why he used the extremely long and heavy arrow, his reply "works best."

[@ericnewman971]

Looks like what the data should show. nice job

[@dopeasfuq4514]

The trajectory calculator says your test was bad, I put it in the comment section in detail. Here are your momentum calculations. 450gr at 60 yards at 256.5f/s = 16.512 lb ft/s 650gr at 60 yards at 206f/s = 19.13 lb ft/s diff of 2.62lb ft/s 450gr 40 yards at 262.3f/s = 16.86lb ft/s 650gr 40 yards at 208.5f/s = 19.36lb ft/s diff of 2.5lb ft/s 450gr 20 yards at 268.5f/s = 17.26lb ft/s 650gr 20 yards at 211.5f/s = 19.64lb ft/s diff of 2.38lb ft/s You may ask how much is 2.62lb ft/s of difference, it is hard to explain for someone like me. Here is an example that might help you understand a baseball at 6mph(8.8 ft/s) = 2.91lb ft/s Now you may say "well baseballs don't cut" and you're correct. Here is a throwing knife 510grams 10 yards at 50mph = 82.45lb ft/s 650gr 10 yards at 213.2f/s = 19.8 diff of 62.65lb ft/s This is clearly showing how momentum isn't nearly the whole story and the difference in trajectory is not worth the gain in momentum.

[@JonDeKleine]

Oh my gosh, where did the bow flip go😂😂. I have arrows at 575, 610, and 663gr. I have the easy v, and it was sighted in the 575gr arrow. The other 2 arrow setups work off the same easy v sight out to 35yds. Great stuff, Troy, and thx for making me laugh my ass off again.

[@waynemorris1999]

@@JonDeKleine I love the V. 5 elk down with no ranging needed. And I’m throwing a log with terrible trajectory. 😜

[@trevorgilmore9732]

your videos are awesome.everything you cover just makes sense to this 2.5 yr.newbie. i learned it from you dad(80"s just say no ) nancy regan era

[@bennywilliams787]

Thank you sir, I've been applying your knowledge awhile now. Will not go back to twizzler sticks

[@TheArrowBuilder]

Good information. I like the Thomas Sowell quote. In this case - the tradeoff going from a 450 grain arrow to 589 is in range forgiveness and time in flight at 60 yards at the benefit of penetration. Interesting - Per lab radar data. With a longer draw and higher energy setup (IE poundage) my 483 grain arrow has the same momentum at 60 as Troy's 589 grain arrow but gets to the target 15% faster. Given speed of sound and a physiological response time - the animal would have the opportunity to move for 21% more time. If the animal does move - it has longer time to accelerate and would be moving away from the arrow at a higher velocity when the arrow gets there. Like a boxer moving away from a punch and the slower arrow would actually lose more momentum. Not to mention your arrow is hitting further away from the original aim point.

[@allenr6687]

Thank you. The thomas Sowell quote is perfect for the arrow weight debate...It is interesting the debates from both sides. Iam a whitetail 400 grains and 1.5 inch mechanical guy. Tracking is the most important thing with bow in the end all this other stuff is noise to be honest.

[@MarcDesrosiers-t2j]

Have you ever done or think of comparing the arrow trajectory at night using lighted nocks and a long exposure still picture then super imposing the images? I did it couple of years ago did “image” my arrow trajectory and it is interesting. Thanks for all the videos. They are awesome and learning a lot.

[@RanchFairy]

Might put on list.

[@mikekupetsky6879]

I know exactly what you're talking about because of years of studying ballistics for rifles the faster than a bullet leaves the barrel the faster than it slows down it is the exact same thing for an arrow a pumpkin a rocket it doesn't matter

[@cjr4497]

I find it funny that guys with 30"+ draw lengths that shoot 70+ pounds instruct people to shoot arrows that they don't even shoot themselves. I also find it funny that Dudley's voice is in the commercials played during this video, LOL "Get the new T2 broadhead"....."I told Iron Will Bill he doesn't know shit about broadheads because he doesn't pay me"..."These are the best ever"

[@AaronPugsley-l5i]

They come dull (Iron Will) in comparison to the Ranch Fairy’s example of perfection and the sharpness is non comparable at all . The R.F. Broadheads are THE SHARPEST ON THE MARKET OUT THE BOX. 🎉 great job on the updates btw Troy

[@ryanbealer4280]

To add to your point, the arrow flies in a 3 dimensional plane. So, I would like to know how much less wind drift the heavier arrow experiences at 60 yards.

[@CandSbowhunting]

Thanks for the helpful information. As always great videos.

[@TradTech]

Improved penetration outweighs speed and flatter trajectory. Adult arrows work better.

[@glennbayley5863]

That was a brilliant video. Can't believe it when the arrow dropped into the fence. Post check the videos coming they are brilliant.🇺🇸 😆👍 .🇬🇧

[@glennbayley5863]

Thanks for another brilliant video.

[@jons7e]

There's another compromise... the yardage tape e.g. 60 yards on the light arrow is more like 80 yards with the heavy arrow. So you've effectively limited your range and widened pin gaps. Does that matter, that's the question. On a case by case basis, maybe. I would recreate the drop tests at 60 yards between a 400, 500, and 600 grain arrows. Is 1.5" difference of miss delta at 40y a big difference? When you consider the size of the broad head is maybe that amount, and the delta only grows even larger at 60 yards or more, maybe it is. The "it's a dynamic situation" argument is an extremely valid counter argument, but the less you need to float the easier it is to do that accurately under the gun.

[@theroncorbett7991]

Fooling around with a newly released arrow trajectory app there is only 2 inches of difference in drop with a 5 yard error using a 60 yard zero between my 460 grain and 620 grain arrows.

[@The_Judge300]

I use a fixed pin sight with 7 pins and shoot a 650 grain arrow at 260 fps. My last pin is at 80 yards and I have no problems at all to gap shoot all the way out to 80 yards. The reality is that the drop test is extremely theoretical as you will adjust your point of aim when you notice that the animal has moved a bit closer or further away from your measured distance and this will in reality make the difference between the light and heavy arrow even less since you will not misjudge the distance by 5 yards, but rather by 2-3 yards at most instead. I have killed many animals at distances between 40 and 60 yards by gap shooting and I have also killed one at 72 yards and I have not once hit to low or to high to not kill the animal with that one shot. And since my bow is so quite because of the heavy arrow, am I also not experiencing the extreme string jumping I did at times 20-30 years ago when I shot light arrows at high speed.

[@theroncorbett7991]

@@The_Judge300 Gap shooting is a lost art. I grew up shooting unmarked 3D with a 5 pin site and can outshoot guys using a slider

[@jons7e]

@@theroncorbett7991 What arrow trajectory app are you using?

[@theroncorbett7991]

@@jons7e Pro Archery Ballistics

[@benjamins7799]

The bow going left thing is a result of the shot breaking under tension as you push and pull, not knowing exactly when it will go off to help prevent shot anticipation. The reason you don’t see it in hunting videos is likely because people are punching the trigger to send the arrow when the time is right. At least that’s what I do🤷‍♂️

[@karljohnson719]

Love the shirt it has so many applications

[@C.Adams82]

Im a light arrow guy but RF is absolutely correct on this. A heavier arrow carries more energy over long distances better than a light arrow. Its a number game and numbers dont lie. The only reason i use the lighter arrow is trajectory but thats really not that big of a difference since i starting messing with heavier setups.

[@Guipago55]

My take---Light arrow gets to target quicker, has less time for wind to throw it off, has less momentum to penetrate target. Heavy arrow gets to target slower, has more time for wind to throw it off, has more momentum to penetrate target. Both types of arrows can be made to shoot accurately, the REAL issue is what your target is, a paper/3D target or a living thing & this is where it all changes, to hit a paper/3D target you need speed & accuracy, sure, you can use 'anything' but you won't be winning comps, to hit a living thing you have an onus on yourself to take that animal ethically, which means wound channels so that animal can succumb to the shot quickly, pass throughs leave wound channels that bleed well, arrows that are still embedded in the animal tend to bleed slower, animal covers more ground before succumbing, more work for you, arrows that only partially penetrate an animal can mean a lost animal (that turns up on a greenies property who then causes a 'scene' & bow hunters are the devil incarnate). Bottom line, heavy arrows good for game, light arrows good for paper/3D targets, doesn't mean they CAN'T be used, but, there are much better options.

[@RanchFairy]

@@Guipago55 Excellent comment However - aerodynamically a higher FOC arrow tends to stay on the shot line better due to the way it flies - this is an FOC specific characteristic. Speed has nothing to do with it nor time to target. For target and 3-d. The best arrow is as high an FOC “light” arrow as you can build. PS - there are a ton of spot shooters indoor who run 200-250 grain glue IN points - for accuracy!! Hmmmmm Shhhh - don’t tell anyone!! Solid comment

[@ejsocci2630]

Thanks for sharing.👊🏻🏹

[@tomkielbasinski5462]

Great stuff man!

[@elijahyungwirth9743]

I think j Dudley would probably critique the form of a hooter shooter. I appreciate your testing, now that I live in the Midwest, I just shoot 72lb. 300gt hunter w 40 gn insert and a qad exodus. At the end of the day, it comes down to my shot placement, it keeps passing through, as it did at 60lb. However, when I was in Texas, I shot an 83lb invasion with an fmj, cause pigs don't play, and I don't always make a perfect shot and really needed the energy. Right tool for the job I guess

[@robertmanore9797]

I believe statistically most whitetail deer shot with a bow is seventeen yards and under.My over thirty years of bow hunting pretty much agrees with that stat.That would be here in Michigan though.

[@Bobsbowshop]

I’m from michigan also, too bad 70% of bow hunters wimped out and are now shooting the crossgun!😢

[@kentonward97]

I would say this about trajectory both gun and bow. I feel when your only worried about trajectory then your not really a good shot to begin with. I know this comment will get “ comments”. But it’s the truth , as evidence of this watch the 45-70 arguments !! Projectile weight is where it’s at matching it with the proper weight of bow!! Which is harder to stop a corvette at 120 mph or a freight train at 50 mph? Common sense!

[@PersonalBestOutdoors]

Stop throwing you common sense and logic around here. People's heads can't handle it.

[@jamesseed1752]

@kentonward97 A corvette takes 276' to stop at 120 mph, a train takes 8000' to stop at 50 mph(searched out of curiosity on google A.I). A corvette would be demolished upon impact. A train would demolish most anything in front of it.

[@kentonward97]

@@jamesseed1752 thanks for proving my point

[@theeverydaybowhunter]

I can't argue with your results Troy. My biggest issue in all of this isn't understanding that heavier arrows can maintain momentum. I get that. My issue is the trajectory and speed at impact. I've had deer jump the string on me at 30 yards. I'm surprised you don't talk about personal arrow optimization. Each one of us shoots a different bow, draw length, and draw weight. All of these things factor in and make a big difference in the overall max effectiveness of our arrows and can affect what actual arrow weight is best for each of us to shoot. Thoughts?

[@RanchFairy]

Was the 30 yard deer a heavy arrow? I did a whole video on “can you beat the animals” I showed widely varying reactions from animals from multiple sources. So what you want to hit and what you are gonna hit are up to the animal often. Until one stands still!!!! 🤣 That video does not vary mathematically. It doesn’t care about trajectory. Because math is agnostic. So my reply is - shoot whatever you want, arrow, broadhead, etc. just know that lighter arrows have lower mass / lower momentum (for each individual shooter to your point the numbers vary). But for that ONE shooter. The momentum is set and lowers with lower mass. That being said - this means lower momentum and HIGH resistance broadheads - like mechs. You have to be a better, more precise shot. Assuming animals don’t move……. This is exactly why the mech hunters say “I PREFER to shoot them back”. Because it favors mechs to actually penetrate - usually lower mass and lower momentum. HIGH HIGH resistance platform

[@theeverydaybowhunter]

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

[@jeffspencer7489]

Overlay the drop and time to target. There is a significant difference in long range drop when arrows get heavier and it’s not 1.5 inches. Just did this with target arrows. Zero’d at 65 with 420 gr arrow shot same pin with 375 gr and was 5 inches higher at 65. I realize these are target arrows but the same concept holds. There are sacrifices with either choice. I’ve hunted with a bow for 50 years. Been shooting arrows at 430 to 500 grains. Have lost one deer due to lack of penetration with a shoulder hit. Would rather have a faster, flatter arrow and stay away from the shoulder. Less time for the animal to move. Less opportunity for distance misjudgment and I’ve experienced no incidence of penetration concerns except when I hit the shoulder direct on that deer. That was extremely poor shot placement. Shoot what you want. I personally don’t care if you shoot 400 grains or 800. If you want down range momentum as your driving factor, knock yourself out. The debate is ridiculous.

[@RanchFairy]

I see. Well, if you want less on target energy, knock yourself out, your comment just doesn't like the facts. Math is agnostic and this is a math presentation.

[@rkayser89]

You shouldn't be comparing two arrows on the same pin- you should be comparing the two arrows' 10-yd incremental drop. You wouldn't shoot two different bullets without re-sighting your rifle, would you? This vid was about what happens when you mis-judge distance by 5-10 yards, which is the most-cited tradeoff by people knocking heavy arrows. It's only an extra inch or two from 40 to 50 in a 700 vs 400g arrow. You're welcome to shoot what you like, but I'm enjoying what I've got. I mostly want the heavier setup because most of the robust monolithic broadheads that I can resharpen and reuse are heavier. I hate treating broadheads as disposable or one-time-use.

[@RanchFairy]

@@rkayser89 I used a slider and set each arrow to its own “firing solution” as the military guys would say. In that video to be real clear So “I zeroed my rifle for the bullet”

[@Cooper0307]

Great job Troy. Sometimes you just can’t fix stupid 😂 People are just stuck in there ways. Or they think because they killed a buck with a 400 grain arrow then that’s all they need.

[@Kurtdog63]

Everybody has the right to be wrong to some people, even when their facts are right to the rest of the planet. I think an interesting video would be, to look at Dr. Ed's 12 factors of arrow lethality and see how Dr. Ed ranks the percentage of importance for each factor. For example, if you look at the first three factors of broadhead integrity, mechanical advantage, and arrow flight, what combined percentage of importance would those three factors have, compared to the combined percentage of importance of the next nine factors, and why. I find it interesting that the magical 650 grain weight is number twelve.

[@jason_mc77]

This is a very common misconception. Dr Ashby's factors 1 and 2 are static, structural integrity and arrow flight don't change from their position. Factors 3 through 12 are dynamic and can change based conditions. For example, 650gn is 12 until the arrow hits heavy bone then it can go to 4 or 5. He explains all of this in a video over at the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation KZbin page.

[@RanchFairy]

Jason beat me to the answer. 650 and all the factors intact help but don’t really help until heavy bone is hit. Then Per Ed. “650 moves to 3 or 4”. Asked him in person and it’s clearly (much more detail) in the ashby reports

[@jimrice4699]

@@RanchFairy Add to that , most people don't understand what he means by "heavy bone".

[@Kurtdog63]

@@RanchFairy The fact that the list order of importance can change based on impact totally makes sense.

[@corymartin97]

Here is how the trajectory argument plays in for me.. I didnt like a cluttered sight and switched to a single pin. With that set at 27 yards, i am within roughly 2 inches from 10 to about 32 yards. As far as momentum, i had to pull my sub 450 grain arrow out of the dirt on every deer ive shot with a 1.5+ mechanical. Roughly 8 deer with that set up Serious question, why then do i need more momentum?

[@stephenballard3759]

Well, you haven't so far, but they cover that question a lot. When everything goes perfectly, anything will work.

[@TheArrowBuilder]

@@stephenballard3759 The reality is that the situation goes both ways though right? A larger cut could also save you if you happen to hit back. So the question realistically is a statistical one - which scenario is most likely. A shot too far back or hitting a hard bone that a say a Sevr 1.5" wouldn't have also made it through (rib or outside scap). Keep in mind a Sevr 1.5 per that Ashby studies penetrated a minimum of 7" inches into a cape buffalo and a max of 19.5" albeit with a 610 grain arrow. Not that I'm a huge mechanical fan - but they have their upsides. I've shot animals with fixed heads when aiming vital v and for various reasons I got marginal shots too far back. Being totally honest... after the fact I wished I had a 2" mechanical as the fixed did me no good. It cuts both ways is all I'm saying.

[@stephenballard3759]

@@TheArrowBuilder my background in anatomy/physiology and biology actually tells me differently. A big hole is fine,, but a DEEP hole always wins when it comes down to it. Even two inches deeper is likely to be better than twice as wide. The delicate, vulnerable, and vital organs are deep in the body for a reason.

[@stephenballard3759]

@@TheArrowBuilder I don't really SEE any up-sides to a mechanical after taking into account the angle of attack. I get that some are only 1.5" wide and all that. Remember that the number one arrow lethality factor is durability. Any damage to head, shaft, innsert, or adapters, and penetration stops almost immediately. The skinny, backswept blades are vulnerable to bending sideways, twisting, chattering, dulling, and snapping. All stuff I have personally seen happen to hunting companions.

[@stephenballard3759]

@@TheArrowBuilder for sure, bad things can go wrong, and it is a crapshoot what will do better, becauze we dont know what will go wrong or how ahead of time. I have failed to recover one cow elk, shot low and mid-body. I hit liver and stomach, barely got what we call the lateral daiphramatic angle of her left lung. Her left colon fell out through the entry hole and plugged it, and then 200 elk ran over her tracks. I found her three days later. On the other hand, I once shot an elk smack in the right ham. Dont ask, nobody is perfect. I missed the major arteries, but got full penetration, with my broadhead sticking out the far side ham. Almost 24" of really dense meat, and even chipped the pubic arch of her pelvis. This was with a cedar arrow, 680 grain total, 175 gr 2blade, out of a 58 lb recurve. She ran 80 yards, stopped and stood a few minute, and flopped under a big tree, dead. She died from massive, but non-catastrophic bleeding, so every tertiary artery I hit in the deep muscle helped. That recurve generates 2/3 the energy of a decent compound, but I'm positive the wrong arrow or head would not have gotten that deep.

[@DuoBart0n]

Is there a speed overlay for this that I missed? What were the velocities between the two at the given distances? Last I played around with this I hit a point of depreciating returns to the point my initial velocity being so slow was hindering the down range numbers.

[@RanchFairy]

@@DuoBart0n here’s the whole playlist kzbin.info/aero/PLsLRIsmsaiq629Kv-45AaFX-1X7gH_1To&si=GS-nrPwCCeN4Myqp

[@steelandsanderoutdoors2617]

They also think that if you have the heavy arrow and the animal walks away a bit you have to let down to rerange so that you know the exact yardage to shoot for.

[@johncom1971]

Well, you were right... quite boring, but interesting just the same! lol Thanks for the work Troy :)

[@longranger99]

I knew it was the Ranch Fairy when I first noticed twizzlers on the hook screen.

[@dustenoare8061]

I wish you would work with Mythbusters. That would be a dream team of logic and physics for bow hunting

[@elimoore4196]

I want to know if the further you go back the higher you should aim on the animal, eg, 10 yards the arrow fly alot flatter then an arrow at 40 - 50 yard. Which would mean if you shoot at the point on the outside of an animal the arrow enters with a different angle with the potential to miss vitals?

[@elimoore4196]

So that when your arrow is inside the animal they all hit the same spot centre mass

[@RanchFairy]

That’s a quite detailed ask The answer is hard Is the shooter perfect while hunting? Does the animal move?

[@chaddavis8699]

Genuine question this topic has been beaten around in my brain for a long time now current set up is a 495 grain 28 1/2 in 17% FOC victory vap ss Shooting 75 pound draw weight according to the arrow Speed calculator on Dr. Ashby’s website 290 fps 92.42flb ke and 0.64 slug-ft/s From the looks of the chart you posted about slug in a 650 grain arrow it looks to be in the similar range. Is it worth it to go to a 650 grain arrow or being that I’m at 75 pounds versus 65 pounds. With a lighter arrow, would it be at the bone breaking threshold?

[@RanchFairy]

@@chaddavis8699 No. Mass makes things hard to slow down. You did see the video on momentum. Your comment is the momentum video

[@chaddavis8699]

Thanks for the reply. I was just curious because your chart was at 65 pounds. Draw

[@chaddavis8699]

After watching And looking over your chart , even the light arrows at 60 yards only drop .005 slug which is the same as the heavy arrow is it mass or momentum that makes the bone breaking threshold because if it’s strictly Mass that makes that the threshold it’s fine and dandy but if you’re saying that it’s momentum and not just mass alone if I were to switch to From 100 Grain to 150 grain Broadhead bringing total arrow weight to 545 kinetic energy 93 pounds and slug to .67 which, according to your chart is higher than that of a 670 grain arrow at 65 pound draw

[@RanchFairy]

@@chaddavis8699 So both the launch momentum and the 60 yard momentum go up at a steady rate for all mass arrows. If you change the bow - you’d need another chart to be exact. Momentum is an equation with both parts. It’s hard for me to articulate that - working on an example. Ed ashby tested bows down to 40 pounds and the 650 held up. You’d think he’d have had to add mass. I’m gonna do a podcast with him. See my channel for our talk on momentum and FOC. Lots of gems in there

[@RanchFairy]

@@chaddavis8699 so I asked Ed this question. “Is there a velocity based heavy bone threshold?” Meaning, lighter arrow but faster and the momentum is equivalent. His answer was classic Ed Ashby. “I don’t know, we intend to find out, gotta test it.” In his testing down to 40# recurve, the heavier projectile at or over 650 kept performing the best. Now what is key here. When you talk about a 650 bone breaker. That is all the factors. For instance, everyone wants a 650 and any old Broadhead. That HAS NOT been the case. The highest performer was a 3:1 single bevel one piece head like a Tuffhead dangerous game head. You change the Broadhead (Which Ed had the same question and he tested it) you change the results. So we are speculating, trying to figure out this answer. But everything points to drag. The mass never changes. In momentum its equal mass and velocity. So, the minute the arrow leaves it slows down, but doesn’t lose mass. Then it hits the animal, and the speed erosion to go 20 or 30 or 50 yards (depending on shot distance) slowing down before it hits. Mass hasn’t changed. Then it hits whatever, at whatever angle, every shot is an individual, non-repeatable, incident. The arrow slows down even more “dragging in the tissues”, how much? We don’t know. But the mass didn’t change. The ABF will figure it out. I promise no one else is trying. But we are curious. Please note comment on 12 factors and Broadhead. That is extensively tested in the Ashby reports. One other fact. Ed didn’t have single bevel for a long time during the study. He had long 3:1 broadheads, then he got some single 3:1 bevels and to use his words, from one of my videos. “We didn’t know why, we just know (single bevel 3;1) it did” (outperform the previous arrows of same type, build, mass, bow etc.). Then it was added and studied further. We have a huge list of “now we gotta figure this out” left to do at the ABF. So until we know, we don’t know. We just know what has performed the highest at this time. The study is not a closed book, it is a living document.

[@btuthill9653]

I love that shirt!

[@Steadyeddie8734]

You’re a nice guy troy. Love the videos. Truth is you cherry pick your data to support your point, depending on the topic. In all honesty, a 450 grain arrow, broadside at 20 yards will blow through any whitetail with a proper placed shot. I, nor anyone IMO, should be shooting a whitetail at 60 yards, regardless of arrow weight. I will agree if talking about larger bodied game like elk where 60 yards is more common I would definitely have a heavier arrow. But if you’re responsibly shooting whitetail at 20 broadside, 450 vs 650 does not matter

[@RanchFairy]

So we can agree that IF the arrow is tuned and if the broadhead is durable and IF YOU ONLY hit ribcage “perfect shot placement”…… we agree!! So what about - if! If the deer moves If you pull a shot If you’re elevated and hit the scapula a bit….. Then we introduce variability. So yeah, we agree - when it all goes right - all things work. I did the 60 yard video because I get some wild comments from western guys. Second - if you look at the DATA in that video. With a mind that sees the data and doesn’t cherry pick it to fit YOUR bias. The top line - the lunch momentum increases as mass goes up and velocity goes down - literally and factually at the bow (this remains at 20 yards) the heavier projectile retains more energy. So when IF happens, you have more on target energy to manage variability.

[@todlew3238]

Archers or target shooters hitting the 10 ring consistently no matter what the range feel that it's best. They fail to incorporate some facts into their logic. The target moves at times. Therefore the 10 ring moves. The flappers they shoot sometimes hits ribs or scapula. Though they readily admit that fixed blade and especially single beveled are better than flappers in those situations. They have convinced themselves that they can out speed the target reflex and movement with that light setup. Next time you watch those precision shooters and they shoulder hit an animal and only get minimum penetration and you watch the video of the animal running away with a flag flying. Remember the Fairy explaining adult arrow tests . As a stickbow hunter with velocity half the speed . I'll stick with adult arrow setups and puff my chest out by getting within 15 yards of my quarry and the Archers turned hunters, you can retain bragging rights to those long range shooting situations.

[@toddbermingham3291]

Good stuff!!

[@flyfin108]

while testing my DIY broadheads on compound i stumbled on wierd effect that should not be happening, lighter arrow maintained more momemtum after hitting .5" construct board into wool / cotton carpets, 424gn vs 482gn, roughly 10fps more on lighter arrow, i repeated this test multiple times and still cant figure what is going on, 60 ish dw 28.5dl 234 / 224 fps ish, under 400gn arrow had it worst, all the same arrows but different inserts, 42gn and 100gn

[@RanchFairy]

Gotta do the math to know it’s maintaining “momentum”. I assume you mean it went through the board “better” That could be arrow flight - not saying your results are wrong, but if it is arrow flight the results could have been in favor of the heavier arrow. Keep tinkering - every test you do leads to more questions than answers!! Trust me - I have a scroll of things to be answered

[@flyfin108]

@@RanchFairy could very well be that yes, those heavier wasnt grouping as well as lighter on 50meter, which was wierd also as they used to group better, also my bow has gotten more sensitive for grip so theres that, gotta figure way to get em straighterer, thank you!

[@RanchFairy]

@@flyfin108 Bare shaft Nock tune a set of arrow -

[@flyfin108]

@@RanchFairy yes, just got new dozen of arrows with tighter spine (300), decided to keep em at 450gn, should be planty for small game im allowed to shoot atm, outdoors range dosnt have paper holder (yet) and upstairs of a barn is full of obviously poisonous dust (asbestos etc) so i have lots reasons not to paper tune ;) was just at the range couple hrs ago, doing it by eye balling arrow flight, close but no cigar, gotta get that paper going. its really fun as it gives me instantly feedback if im shooting with twist, still under year into vert, im waiting for one of the vanes get damaged so i can strip it to bare, i still havent done any nock tunes, kinda waiting to get spine indexing going so i dont need to worry about colors, i blew crossbow once in a dark with odd colors

[@flyfin108]

@@RanchFairy so i build frame for the paper and carried it to range, shot all 12 through it and got half of em doing bullet holes and called it a day, after nap i decided that grouping wasnt good enough and adjusted it some more, now they are all doing atleast decent bullet holes and got melon size group into 50meters, adjusted sights and got two arrows touching just below x, nock tuning should get that into half, thank you very much for the inspiration Ranch Fairy

[@tsi-rocket4144]

People kill things with homemade bows and we have done so with sticks and stones for thousands of years theirs even a guy killing blackbear with a blowdart gun.. A heavier arrow has more momentum, not arguing that. What needs to be considered is arrow drop, flight time, an archers skill, and preference. 450ish gr rip tko with a fixed blade will take down anything in north America, have tighter pins, and less flight time than a 650grain arrow giving a better chance of point of aim and point of impact being closer allowing for a more ethical shot at 60yds+. Also have to consider the overall speed of someone's bow, not everyone has a 30" draw and not all bows are "fast". If someone runs a slower bow idk how you'd adjust 5 pins out to 60yds in a 2" scope housing @650gr so you need a slider sight and some of us prefer fixed pins for hunting. Its a matter of preference. Deer in my area are on edge all the time, they will pick you out from 60yrds away at times. For me I want a light, fast arrow, that will ethically take down the animal. I prefer yardage forgiveness(tighter pins) and less dwell time between the shot an impact. I also shoot almost daily to be proficient at 60yds. Momentum may be your jam but shoot a 5 pin sighted in bow vs a 650gr bow using your 20pin out to 40yrds and see what the drop difference is and then take that out to 60yrds. An on target shot is always going to trump an adult arrow and your more likely in the heat of the moment to make an ethical shot with a 450ish grain arrow. It's not a matter of momentum its matter of hitting the mark. If your a pro archer and have you setup dialed than it doesn't matter, I speak for the non professional archers.

[@hadesarchibald3287]

Man I'm struggling, I love shooting at 120 yard. But if I move to a heavy arrow. (Which I want to) I can't shoot that far. So I'm having a hard time with that trade off

[@RanchFairy]

Just facts. At least you see the math. So just remember- if you shoot at 120 at an animal. Your Momentum is going down at least double what you see on these graphs (probably more due to aerodynamic drag) As noted - just facts. If you don’t hit anything hard in an animal….. IF mean’s variables

[@hadesarchibald3287]

@RanchFairy yeah that is the thing. I won't shoot an animal that far. Just my targets and at 3d ranges where stuff doesn't move. At this point, I need two bows, one for hunting with and one for long range. Thank you for changing my mind that speed means everything.

[@a.j.taylor4401]

I don't want to be one of those guys on the internet but if you want to shoot 120 yards then why not use a rifle? To me a bow is a close range tool and getting close to an animal is the challenge that makes I fun. Don't get me wrong it takes a heck of an archer to shoot ar 120 yards but I think for hunting it is very unethical. There is just too much that can go wrong. Heck at 40 there is alot that can go wrong.

[@hadesarchibald3287]

@a.j.taylor4401 Well, the skill of shooting a bow long range makes shooting close shoots simple. And a little boring. And like it said, I'm not trying to shoot any animal at long range. I like shooting targets at long range.

[@scottmyers4802]

I prefer the reverse bow flip with hip thrust.😄😁😆

[@RanchFairy]

I’ll add that

[@theroncorbett7991]

The question that needs to be answered is “ what is the minimum momentum value” at the bow to get a pass through on a “plan A” shot? Then we can pick and choose what trade offs we are willing to make in our set ups.

[@lawrencefranck9417]

Need heard of back tension when bows only had 50-60% letoff and the bows were easier to shoot.

[@kilosoutdoors2706]

I am a big fan of KISS... Keep it Stupid Simple or Keep it Simple Stupid.... It seems the Archery industry has overcomplicated things since I was heavy in the sport. Funny stuff for your entertainment: Overdraws from 90's to shoot shorter stiffer arrows for speed was abandoned yet the folks your debating want speed. I assume the D-loop was born in the Era of short axle to axle bows that created steeper string angles at full draw pinching nocks? Not a fan of D-loop. I have a cheap 1990's ball bearing release so I prefer a nock only. Drop away arrow rest that complicates the entire setup to get negligible amount of fps vs a spring flipper prong rest. Mechanical Broadheads awww heck no. Fixed 1 piece broadheads that can be sharpened 💯 agree with you. FOC is a new term to me since it has been a long time as I lost interest here in Florida with the heat, bugs, and all the hungry critters that can make a meal out of you but FOC makes perfect sense. Heavy arrows, momentum, & penetration is a new concept to me also and sounds like there should be a sweet spot in combination with speed & FOC to obtain maximum effectiveness. I recall getting pass through the majority of the time shooting much slower bows & heavier arrows back then. Reason for watching your video: Dusted off all 3 of my bows which bow that most would consider out dated & antiquated. I shot some to figure out I wanted to take hunting for the first time in over 10 years to see if I wanted to get back into archery. I was trying to determine what arrows I would get since all my old XX75 2314 Autum orange arrows from 90's fletchings were torn up from shooting. Shooting 70# max weight @ advertized 241fps was shooting 27.5" XX75 2314 and considering 5mm FMJ 300 with 125g broadheads. Considering adding up to 50g insert to increase FOC? YES/NO? I humbly admit that I have no clue...😂😂😂

[@RanchFairy]

Weigh your current arrows. DO NOT SHOOT ANYTHING with a HIT insert FMJ is possibly the worst hunting arrow on earth. See my High FOC arrow building playlist on the Ranch Fairy Channel. You want a low mass ARROW Put the mass up front. It has to fly perfect (this takes work). I have videos on bare shaft tuning as well

[@lovetogun3611]

Going up in arrow weight and getting rid of the spaghetti noodles and switching to adult broadheads has left me with some expensive tomato stakes😑😂

[@RanchFairy]

@@lovetogun3611 Flexible so the tomatoes can grow

[@cjr4497]

You group tune at 90 meters bro?

[@RanchFairy]

200 bro!! 😎

[@chrisruzsa2798]

I have never seen so many failures on archery ever as I have until recently in years. Everyone should go back to 2219s and 150 grain heads those that want higher FOC add brass or heavier tip. Call it done. Mechanical or fixed your choice you are 0.6-0.8 slugs of momentum from launch to target at i don’t care what distance because it just doesn’t drop. Hit and passthrough we should all get back to killing things. Leave the carbons for target archers.

[@steveadam1288]

Ranch f I prefer to watch you over The John Dudley!!! 😊

[@jimrice4699]

Your conclusion is correct but you aren't selling it as well as you could. Try slowing it down, walk folks through the graph, and work on avoiding mis-use of the word energy when (I think) you are referring to momentum. It's hard to follow the presentation even though it is very simple. Here are the key questions: What is the bowhunter skill / limitations, what are they trying to accomplish and what weigh arrow (and Broadhead type) is needed to do that? Bowhunters who want to assure an exit wound need more Momentum than those that don't - but the question is how much more? Personally, I am seeking enough momentum to get a two lung hit if I hit the flat part of the scapula. The problem is, there isn't consistent feedback on the boundary between success and failure with such a hit - how much momentum is actually needed?? On a related note, we don't all have equal hunting skill or practical accuracy. You mentioned Dudley in the video. I've thought a bit about guys like Dudley and others that are essentially "National Caliber Archers". The precision of those guys is so great that a 1.5 inch improvement in trajectory could in fact be more meaningful to them than the extra momentum. Why? Because they are unlikely to muff the shot. Thus, they can pick shots through brush or take shots with difficult angles more successfully than your average archer can do on close range shots. They are also much less likely to hit heavy bone. For them, the overall benefits of speed probably makes sense. There is also an equipment difference between what I'll call the average bowhunter with a 28.5 inch draw length and draw weight of 65 lbs vs. guys like Dudley with what, a 31 inch DL and 75-80 Draw weight. I think for the average bowhunter after elk, a heavier arrow and keeping shots at =< 40 yards (with rangefinder) makes most sense. At those ranges, a HEAVY arrow makes a LOT of sense. I can say with some authority that a 440 grain arrow with a COC Broadhead shot into a live Elk's Scapula is NOT enough to consistently get a double lung hit and kill the elk (I did it at 22 yards with a two blade stinger and got one lung and lost the elk). Sure, guys claim they do it. Sometimes you get lucky. I met a guy at my range last weekend who got lucky, but it they were also lucky to find the elk after hours of searching. I can also say with some confidence that my heavy arrow set up which weighs 625 grains topped with a 212 grain Abowyer Brown Bear single bevel BH (weight w/ adapter installed) will likely go through both shoulder blades of an elk (based on feedback from others). Sadly, I've never had a shot when I've carried my "heavies".

[@waynemorris1999]

I’ve shot 4 elk with “heavy” arrows. One with 560gr and cut on contact and three with 656gr and cut on contact. I did not know the range of any of them. I split the humerus of a bull on an unnecessary follow up shot but gained knowledge and confidence. I’ve split ribs, scapula and heavy bone. I’m going back this year with a metal detector to find the ranch fairy 200 I used. I’m really curious what a humerus and a year in the woods did to it. When I used a light arrow, it stopped on the offside scapula. We found it but 2 holes is better than one plugged hole. I’ve also help look for elk shot with light arrows that were never found. I won’t go back to a light arrow for elk but maybe that’s because I’m not that good of a shot and need a plan B. I know seeing is believing but maybe my experience will give you confidence in your setup. I would hate to do all the work to get within bow range of an elk and have my arrow fail me.

[@krispiros7941]

OK, so could you please talk about the fact that all arrows LOST THE SAME AMOUNT OF MOMENTUM at the same distance? 🤔All lost .05 slug feet per second regardless of weight! Your test was repeated by Exodus Outdoors and they got the same result. This means, all you need is the launch speed and the rest can be calculated every time. This will basically give you a potential range threshold for killing any game. All you need to do is do the correct math. By the way, how can I get admittance to hunt with you? Hi from Germany.

[@jimrice4699]

Except we don't know what is the "correct math". Meaning, we don't know how much momentum is required to assure a lethal hit on a muffed shot (in USA, an elk scapula is a common muffed shot that would benefit from more momentum). I'm "ignoring" deer hunters that use expandables.🙄

[@JSturdivant]

We can repeat Dr.Ashby's Natal study and collect more data ie arrow velocity at launch. We can also perform the test on more relevant game for the audience. The Natal study being focused on large African game doesn't relate well to most other game species as far as establishing minimums.

[@ronaldirvineII]

Ranch fairy ur the shit brother and I hope you have a good day

[@robertgraham3970]

Teaching bow hunter education i taught harvesting game ìn the most ethical means.... Sharp heads, sharp minds, and sharp practice.... I grew up with a straight bow and HEAVY gear why... i shot lower poundage and a higher weight allowed me to take coyotes and raccoons with a bow... 30# bow with 145 grain Eskimo heads and 25" aluminum shafts FILLED WITH GAP FOAM and fletched with real feathers.... because my arrows where in need of the weight to penatrate

[@feelslikefar50]

Cuz "western hunting". Most people don't realize, the first animal killed with a bow and arrow west of the Mississippi didn't happen until 2005. 😊

[@RIVERCITYOUTDOORS]

Lets go fishing Troy

[@deanbrantley]

We’ve seen the Hunting Public guys switch to heavy arrows and single bevels. Aren’t they there now? For shits and giggles why now have some twizzler/flapper guys show up and compare results and settle the debate finally?

[@JasonHarris-qi9oz]

No matter how hard you try bud you can't fix stupid! Who cares about the trolls, we believe and follow you,that's what matters. K÷p up the great work.😅

[@glennl9630]

❤❤

[@ThirdLawPair]

Trajectory is the not the only trade-off. Respectfully, your analysis (in a previous video) that time of flight does not matter is incorrect. Personally, I prefer neither a super heavy nor a super light arrow, but a balanced setup.

[@stephenballard3759]

Do you have any data to refute Troy's claim that time of flight doesn't matter. I shoot trad and my time of flight at longer ranges is obviously longer than most. But, I haven't seen how it matters.

[@ThirdLawPair]

@@stephenballard3759 Good question. One place to find that data is a KZbinr name Lucas Palmer. He does tests similar to Troy, but rather than merely noting that sometimes the deer moves and sometimes it doesn't, he analyzed real video data of deer ducking the arrow and measured the speed and acceleration of the deer's movements. From there you can find the difference in impact point between cases where the deer holds still, versus when it moves at its maximum acceleration; which allows you to find the maximum time of flight to keep the impact point in the kill zone.

[@wayneshears5884]

Physics trump opinions every time. ….”send it to your friends. Especially the ones who will get pissed off.” 😂😂

[@andrewfernandez8330]

Being neutral on the subject, Id like to play devils advocate here. Why does high speed, lighter weight, projectiles defeat body armor where slow heavy ones do not? Does this not illustrate the relationship of penetration of projos?

[@SilentJay0262]

Message, methodology and math are solid. The challenge is money (the combined effects of marketing and media). If "THE AVATAR" comes clean the whole game ends. No more "best X they ever made". No more sponsorships. We all launch Tuffheads or Magnus' on whatever brand arrow correctly spined using the first release we ever bought aimed down an EZV because they work. Then we all shoot our risers flaccid and our bearings bumpy. By industry standards Doc is literally THE Antichrist, and we all are just his retarded minions. I'm okay with that. Then again, the industry isn't feeding my family.

[@GlideorDieSwimbaits]

when you split the difference and go with 250 Spine RIP TKO at 530 grain with a 30% FOC 😳

[@RanchFairy]

@@GlideorDieSwimbaits Well buddy - your math is not very good. You get to 30% - hell, you get to 20% FOC on a 250 Rip at 530 grains and you’re magical or on drugs! But the math isn’t right

[@GlideorDieSwimbaits]

@ that wasnt the actual stats i was just throwing numbers around 😂

[@GlideorDieSwimbaits]

@ you can get close to a 20% at 530 at 28.5 with 250gr up front on a RIP TKO 250 they’re 8.9 GPI

[@MagnumArrowArchery]

💪🏽🇺🇸🏹

[@OzarkHoller]

Violence it is.

[@jesse4530]

Your test is invalid because you use a spinning reel upside down, (and because i dont like the results) lol

[@RanchFairy]

The latter more than the former!! 🤣

[@averagejackarchery]

Crap. The thousands of 400-500 grain arrows I sold to customers last year are subpar? Gonna have to budget a new file cabinet for all the shooter complaints...

[@gandalf2256]

Stick to teaching kids their ABCs champ.

[@jonathantrumpower9316]

@@gandalf2256 He's not your champ pal.

[@gandalf2256]

@jonathantrumpower9316 I know exactly who and what he is. It's cute you're trying to defend the Biden voting beta male 🤣🤣

[@averagejackarchery]

@@gandalf2256 Ah, yes. I remember my first time on the internet.

[@jonathantrumpower9316]

@@gandalf2256 man you bit hook line and sinker, I'm literally just quoting a scene from a movie. And just a PSA it doesn't matter who you vote for, they elect who they want.

[@ScottWConvid19]

Just feeding AL Gore... ...Rhythms

[@Pattyboybx]

Brooooo. Wtf. You hold the rod and reel upside down? Noooooooooo

[@RanchFairy]

Only for video so people can’t see I’m incredibly sarcastic

[@RonSteele66]

can you block a channel?

[@RanchFairy]

Yes - free to do so!

[@PommeLielens]

😜😜🤣🤣👏👏👏

[@christopherwatson283]

LOL. You speed metered a 589 grain arrow at 60yds? How fast was it going? How fast was the 450 grain arrow through the speed meter? That change in speed is measurable at launch and at 60. Your graph is inaccurate and meaningless. You don't lose momentum that's measurable at 60. Lighter gets there faster. faster = more momentum. You seem to think the lighter faster arrow has brakes on it or something. Slow and heavy is equivalent to fast and light at reasonable range shots. I'll stick with speed. Lob away.

[@davidholliday2703]

Do you. If it works for you, fantastic! But when it doesn't, you have another tool in your toolbox to consider. Good hunting.

[@flyfin108]

momentum is not kinetic energy

[@johanviljoen4686]

Do you even know how momentum work? Do you know the formula for momentum? And have you heard of the conservation of momentum? You are thinking of kinetic energy, where velocity has a much bigger contribution to the formula and that is why kinetic energy isn't the best way to measure the effeciency of the projectile. It only show you the effeciency of the bow. But that also increase as you increase arrow weight, because less energy is lost in the system with heavier arrows. That is due to a heavier arrow being in contact with the arrow string for longer, which translates to more energy absorption by the arrow. Mass x velocity is the formula for momentum. So loosing 40fps and gaining 200 grains will of course increase momentum. Try shooting a 7 pin sight with a 400gr arrow out to your max distance and then take a picture and then do the same with a 650gr arrow. Do an overlay of the two and have a look at how fast your pin gaps increase with the lighter arrows. That is all due to the loss of momentum of the lighter arrow.

[@jasonard7227]

sry bud heavier things are harder to stop but hey shoot your speed arrow but no matter how fast your arrow is its not faster than an animal or are all the thousands of videos of deer ducking the string fake or wrong as well oh I know they must have all been shooting 1500 grain arrows just lobbing away. Im sure you will say its all shot placement learn to shoot better. yea cause once the arrow leaves the bow we all know critters dont move ever they just pose so your perfect shot stays perfect.well for when the critter moves I want my great shot placement that is no longer great to still get job done unlike all those videos of critters running off with arrows that almost bounced out with most the arrow outside the critter instead of inside or through it like my plan b arrow thats still going 286 fps out of my 82 pound bow. dont know how we killed deer in the 70s and 80s with those slow bows and pretty heavy arrows must all be fake

[@christopherwatson283]

@@davidholliday2703 I will. I'm just not into seeing people being misled. The Momentum/KE is not mysteriously disappearing. It's basically the same and there would be very little difference coming out of the same bow. If, you can get the speed readings at 60? Then you could calculate the Momentum differences. The Momentum is basically the same for both coming out of the same bow. Fast and light = heavy and slow. Do you think fast arrows have brakes on them?

[@grizzledmillennial4765]

Please stop quoting Sowell he is often wrong.

[@RanchFairy]

Completely anecdotal gaslighting. "It's better to be roughly right than precisely wrong." John Maynard Keynes. Might I suggest reading a couple of Sowell's books? Yes, I do. Start with "Basic Economics" and "Inside American Education". I also suggest Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged".

[@grizzledmillennial4765]

@RanchFairy his discussions and writings on economic trends during the period of Alexander the Great's reign are factually and historically wrong.

[@RanchFairy]

@@grizzledmillennial4765 “Conquests and cultures” got it. So based on your analysis I should never use any off the wall quotes from the archery industries “best” and moreover, the archery toy marketing folks who have zero testing or facts. Because they are often wrong. Incredibly wrong. Noted.

[@grizzledmillennial4765]

@RanchFairy wasn't aware Sowell was an archer. Love your work and even shoot some of your broadheads, but pulling random quotes from the industry and pulling random quotes from a questionable "economist" is an apples to apples comparison? You fired back with anecdotal gaslighting, but when I made reference to his work then what? Sorry that the internet gives you flack, but I'm not your enemy or a troll.

[@african7498]

Enjoyed the video - had a great laugh. I find it hard to believe that "great shooters" promote these huge distances for hunting with light arrows losing momentum like a stone. I called it what it is - unethical. Watched a video earlier - CB shot a 350 gr arrow versus 600gr arrow. The 350 gr arrow dropped 30inches at 40 m while the 600 grain arrow dropped 36 inches - when using sights set at 20m. I am not sure how big your elk are - but 30 inch low on most big African game would be a complete miss if aiming for mid 1/3 up. Apparently the 6inches are important? Surely you set you tape to your arrow?

[@RanchFairy]

@@african7498 Please stop with the logic! One of the funny things about really elite level archers - I am NOT one of them. But the guys who are - can’t they shoot just as good?

[@jonathantrumpower9316]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qGeyYp1pga59iNE Moral of the story just shoot better.

[@RanchFairy]

Well, when the animals move on ya - you tell me how you shot worse!! I know I know You never have animals move! Gotcha!

[@jonathantrumpower9316]

​@@RanchFairy hah why did you delete my last reply? Let me put it here again and copy pasta it. It seems what your going for sitting at your corn pile at 20 yards shooting adult arrows is not being an adult and taking bad shots hoping for the best. Animals move sure.. but do the adult thing and wait for a good angle instead of just sending an arrow in there and just praying your BIG BOY arrows gonna blow throw everything so you "might" recover the animal. God forbid you adult and practice, and wait a few seconds for the animal to move again so you can put one where it's intended to go and be 100% lethal. You make fun or target archers and their over exaggeration of back tension, I'm no target archer but I make fun of you when I watch your dog water arrow flight making a box fan size group at 50 yards. Adult up, go practice, get better, be an ethical hunter.. Its proven that little light arrow is capable of killing any animal that walks on this continent. Regardless if your ego wants to admit it. At this point as hush hush as you were with John, I'd say your just fkn trolling for attention.

[@Sean-pw3yr]

Had some respect for the way he handled himself on Dudley’s video. That has been lost on him making a video saying everything he was too scared to say to Dudley…

[@gandalf2256]

Dudley was an arrogant cock and it was his Podcast. RF was respectful then as it was Duds platform. Doesn't mean he has to on his own channel.

[@TheArrowBuilder]

Interesting. I came out with the opposite impression.

[@jonathantrumpower9316]

hah his feelings are hurt and he keeps deleting my reply. A little copy pata and it's back. It seems what your going for sitting at your corn pile at 20 yards shooting adult arrows is not being an adult and taking bad shots hoping for the best. Animals move sure.. but do the adult thing and wait for a good angle instead of just sending an arrow in there and just praying your BIG BOY arrows gonna blow throw everything so you "might" recover the animal. God forbid you adult and practice, and wait a few seconds for the animal to move again so you can put one where it's intended to go and be 100% lethal. You make fun or target archers and their over exaggeration of back tension, I'm no target archer but I make fun of you when I watch your dog water arrow flight making a box fan size group at 50 yards. Adult up, go practice, get better, be an ethical hunter.. Its proven that little light arrow is capable of killing any animal that walks on this continent. Regardless if your ego wants to admit it. At this point as hush hush as you were with John, I'd say your just fkn trolling for attention.

[@AhhBeejams]

It looks like your feelings have been hurt way worse than anyone else here!

[@jonathantrumpower9316]

@@AhhBeejams thanks for being 10 days late. You can gargle Troy's nuts and shoot adult arrows also if you so choose. :)

[@voxpopuli905]

I love that shirt 😂 I want one