RAW VS GEARED LIFTING | JOHN HAACK SPEAKS

[@mikeanthony5206]

“Anybody can bench 315, but 405 is a different world.” Very true, Dave, very true!

[@billj4525]

265 going into your senior year definitely isn't crazy. That's just decent for an athlete, but not too impressive. Genetics vary a lot, but almost anyone can bench 315 given enough effort.

[@cantilever]

If you bench 315, squat 405, and deadlift 500, you are a strong human being. I go to the best commercial gym in my county--not a meathead gym; not a soccer mom gym--and those are rare feats. You can go a long time without seeing them. Benching 405 is extremely rare and only juiced guys have done it at my gym. (I'm a lifetime natty with a 385 bench P.R.) A 500-lb. squat or a 600-lb. deadlift is something that I won't see for YEARS...

[@Lord_Sully]

Take 100 off each of those and that's me lol. I honestly don't see that many 185lbers squatting over 315 (depth) or pulling over 405 in commercial gyms. Everyone benches more than me though :/

[@trogdortheburninator8149]

Actually I agree with them. I’m early 40s, a white collar professional job, no real sporting aptitude, medium genetics and I lift as a hobby. My numbers are a touch over these (deadlift a fair bit more) and I’m nothing special. A few guys at my commercial gym can bench and squat more than me and I’ve seen one guy deadlift more. 315 anybody can get to with enough years training. I’m seeing little hope of a 405 bench before I run out of years of middle age runway lol. I’ve been training for 6 years and never miss sessions. Honestly this is the secret, consistency and time. It’s remarkable.

[@Barneyfithlawman]

Yeah I've been to a lot gyms and not that many people do legit 315 bench very few 405 to good depth, more guys with a decent deadlift. It's a funny thing you do see a fair amount eventually get 315 bench or so but it slows down for most after that unless they are really big guys to start with

[@trogdortheburninator8149]

@@Barneyfithlawman yep my top set for this block was 325lb (actually 147.5kg as we’re metric where I am) and hoping to hit a PR of 330lb next week. It took no time to get to 225lb bench, a few years (maybe 2.5 or 3?) to get to 315 and the next 10lb have taken I think 1.5 years lol…. I’d love a 180kg bench but realistically that’s very very unlikely for me, I think maybe 160kg would be a stretch before I get too old and we start going backwards!

[@StrengthScholar0]

These people are viewing strength through the lens of competition. If you've been competing over 200 for 2 years and you don't have a 315lb bench 405 squat and 500 deadlift you are doing something severely wrong. If you're satisfied with being The strongest person in your commercial gym you can try to convince yourself that's an impressive feat. But the reality is you aren't competing with the entire gym. You're only competing with the people who are putting in the amount of work you are which is probably like 20 if you actually follow a difficult program and keep up on your nutrition. So when you cull out the jobbers who fon't dedicate themselves You're only better than around 20 lifters who are as dedicated as you are. And that's if you're the best in your gym.

[@TheChris403]

Back when Bo Jackson played for the Royals, he would come to my gym a few times a week. He would bench 405 a few reps, and then leave. Every eye in the gym was watching him the entire time.

[@johnsambo9379]

I saw him play in Kauffman stadium as a kid. Grew up in KC. He was a genetic freak.

[@Herr2Cents]

I remember 315, but not 405 for the first time. Bench meet PRs I do remember! Back at it @ 63 for 335 on my way back up. I wish I had these guys for coaches 20 years ago to avoid 2 torn Labrums.

[@leosaffron222]

Gotta get Dave to talk about how equipped used to be way more common/popular. I think a lot of young guys like myself don’t quite get that because we grew up on raw and worship guys like Ed Coan and Ray Williams who both have equipped PRs but no real presence in the equipped scene.

[@michaelhurley545]

A 405 Bench without PEDs is pretty rare. My best lifts have been 455, 355, 545 Raw at 220 it take me years to get there lol. But never did any drugs. Now in my late 50s i haven't lost that much on my lifts just keep going and challenging yourself.

[@michaelscott3422]

I have been lifting for 15 years never really got into powerlifing until a yewr or so ago. I have never seen a 405 without someone being in PEDs. Seen alot of 405s. I'm 5 8 190 lbs and fought for 365. I don't think I could ever hit 405 natty.

[@brandonlanderos2805]

@@michaelscott3422 get to 205lbs I bet you could

[@boydmccollum692]

@@michaelscott3422 it’s definitely not common but 405 natty at 190lbs is doable. If you’re at 365, you most likely can get to 405 within 2-3 years. Sooner with good programming and commitment.

[@RossMcDougall]

I've gravitated to multi ply/band shirts and as a "young" Masters lifter, it's been an incredibly fun transition. I don't like comparing raw vs equipped as it's a completely different sport and style of training. It's more technical and even the training is different. Dave's point is good. It's easier to get into gear when banged up haha. A lot of us 40yos are moving to raw and my shoulders are very thankful.

[@BuJammy]

It's not really a 'completely different' sport. It's not identical, but it's all SBD.

[@Lovingisnecessary]

What do you mean most people need to train to hit 315lbs on the bench. That's a massive understatement. The only guys that don't have to train for that weight weigh 450+ pounds and are attempting to do pushups. And that is still technically training.

[@billj4525]

Most guys 450 plus are sedentary and pretty weak actually, so I don't know if that's true either. I would say if a guy is 450 and trains push ups a lot, then yes he can probably do 315. I agree with you that everyone needs to train to hit 315. Some peoples genetics don't even allow them to hit 315. I have seen people who were weak with bad genetics, and even with decent training they still couldn't hit 315.

[@tannorkocis796]

I am mesmerized by a clean, smooth, ATG squat.

[@BodybuildingUniverse]

Good to see you still at it Dave

[@AlejandroSanchez-pl6jw]

I respect both. You can’t fault the all timers for sticking to gear because that’s all they had then. Also, many programs were developed by guys who lifted geared. Raw is like soccer. Anyone can do it. Gear lifting had groups and that’s team work that raw lacks but raw allows anyone to lift by themselves. We love Chuck Vogelphol but shit on Dave Hoff

[@donaldbell2554]

As I been getting older been doing more gear work seems to keep me Less injured

[@gloriousapplebees]

If anyone can bench 315 then I swear to fuck I'll be someone someday if it kills me.

[@billj4525]

Most can do it if they put in all their effort to do it and train properly for a long time. Anyone can not do it though, that's just false. There are people who just don't have the genetics and ability.

[@johnouellet4099]

It hurts to hear this because I just got the 315 on the bench, but I know it’s true. At least my squad and dead lift are at 455…

[@millemaolchannel8608]

Love this

[@sezayt]

Are U talking in lbs? I Bench 185kg, squats 272,5kg, ohp 120kg. Dead 260kg (Not realy pushing it) Without Gear roids and only mouthpiece, Liftingshoes and belt. 110kg 38y

[@BuJammy]

What do they consider strong for natural athletes?

[@johnschutte71]

16, high school football weight lifting, I maxed out at 405x2. 42 now, I'm not going there again.

[@billj4525]

Wow that's insane for just 16. I hit 405 at 18, 610 deadlift, and a 500 squat. I'm stronger now at 39 then I have ever been by far, yes natural. I have never seen a natural in person as big and strong as me. I hope to be just as strong if not stronger in my 40's and 50's and as long as I can. I work extremely hard and have never been injured. Going heavy as you age builds connective tissue. When done properly it's a very healthy thing to do. I don't even mention my lifts now though, almost everyone who knows my size and strength accuses me of steroids and I have never taken them. I lift for health and steroids ruin them. I have always had amazing genetics, and been a great athlete. 16 is so young, you definitely could have broken those numbers by a lot. With time your lifts go up a lot is what I'm saying. You were unbelievable at 16, did you continue lifting? You definitely would have gotten stronger over the years, I certainly did.

[@Tomasthe1st]

UFpwlfter can bench 405 @153 bodyweight

[@whyask8065]

I would stay raw I don't like gear. However I had hernia surgery as a kid and I'm scared to tear it so I do body building stuff lol

[@wernerbro3208]

i did 140kg at 17,5 yrs old.. with 2 yrs training, no program and pretty ripped at 83kg, 176cm... got a chronic triceps injury and later labrum tear... so did like 148 at 19 with only training min 15 reps year before(rehabbing triceps). Not been stronger than this since, 33 yrs old now. Recently hit same pr as then in military press at 90kg strict. Ofc no roids.. Switched to martial arts and keep doing maintaince strength work, and switch up movements. Think i was to explosive for my own good, with alot of anger to push myself - and flexible joints, which was good for kicking and bjj but its easier to get injured.

[@thedude8526]

And here I thought I had an epic horseshoe mustache. This man's is legendary.

[@truthhurtts]

Personally, the only time I get surprised at a 315lb bench is when the person weighs

[@johnsambo9379]

Depends on the person. The whole point is to improve yourself. Why do you give a crap what anyone thinks anyways? I honestly don't pay attention to other people in the gym.

[@billj4525]

315 at 135 is crazy for sure. It's much much harder to be stronger at a higher bodyweight though, some people forget that. If a person gains weight there strength will be a lot lower for that body weight after gaining, almost always. It's so much more impressive for a bigger guy to have the same pound for pound strength as a smaller guy, which is why they almost never do. In fact, it's not really comparable at all. 315 at 135 is over double body weight bench though, crazy.

[@oldnatty61]

Raw is legit.

[@johnnythesins8904]

What if you are balanced? is that like strong? For instance OHP almost matching bench PR?

[@billj4525]

That's extremely rare. OHP is usually far far lighter than a persons bench.

[@cfboldman]

Anybody can get to 315...not me lol I've been stuck at a plateau for about 2 years, I can rep 225lbs 7-8 times and that's been my limit

[@djjames-h9d]

maybe if they are over 2 bills, a 315 bench at under 200 pounds is VERY STRONG

[@billj4525]

Have you bulked up though? When they say anyone, they mean you have to do whatever it takes to get there, and if you still can't then you can't. That said, not anyone could get to 315, that's nonsense anyway.

[@billj4525]

@@djjames-h9d Yeah, it's easier if you gain weight and do whatever it takes. I think that's what they mean. Even so, not anyone can. That's an exaggeration, some people are very weak and don't have the ability or genetics. Most people definitely can given enough effort and doing what it takes.

[@Officialmannysavage]

Man wtf im weak i cant even hit 185 for 4

[@bigyosh8151]

Stick with it till you're strong💪

[@timh1187]

Just keep at it man.

[@billj4525]

Keep going and keep pushing yourself. It's not an overnight thing, keep getting it. Good luck. Don't listen to the BS about anyone can hit 315, not anyone. You might get there eventually though, keep it up.

[@sammyttheg412]

Who is benching 315 without training

[@billj4525]

I don't know about that one.

[@bobbymadojemu1463]

Benching 405lbs ? Damn I'm strong 😭🥂🥂

[@B.A.D4Life]

Late bloomer . Lol . Maybe one day I will bench 225lbs. Lol.

[@sammy1995]

Look at Kim Chivesky former IFBB Ms Olympia son that's 16 years old and can bench press 500 lbs and squat 600 lbs. That's an anomaly.

[@billj4525]

Crazy for 16. He must be juicing though for his bench to be that high when that young.

[@repentandfollowjesuschrist6170]

BORING

[@ItsHeavyHitterNation]

Raw lifting by far. Geared lifting is similar to a fork truck driver bragging about how he picks up 2000 pounds worth of shit on the fork lift. Raw lifting is you doing the lift geared lifting is the gear doing the lift for ya. An elite raw lifter would kick the shit outta an elite geared lifted that soley lifts in gear with ease.

[@calebevans7408]

a lot of equipped benchers have insane raw benches too. Cant speak on squat and deadlift havent paid as much attention.

[@anabolicamaranth7140]

Amen!

[@jbrandona119]

Do people forget that in order to be a good equipped lifter, you need to essentially master the lift without equipment first? Putting a bench shirt on is far from being the equivalent of hopping into a forklift 😂 that strictly implies they have zero skill and strength which is just straight ignorant

[@shades4313]

Yea there’s an equipped lifter at my gym who is fucking ridiculous raw strength as well. I rarely see him do raw stuff but when I do it’s crazy

[@martinbradley1062]

You have no clue what your talking about