RE: THE PROBLEM WITH "PROGRESSIVE" MUSIC... (PunkRockMBA)

[@inthexis2088]

What if Real Prog was the friends we made along the way

[@BecomeTheKnight]

Lmao

[@venus9343]

The most prog band of all time is clearly drake

[@johnjackson393]

@@venus9343 Ah yes drake. My favorite jazz fusion band.

[@venus9343]

I like their song party in the USA, though I rarely listen to it due to its length

[@jennifer9047]

Frogs Я nice 🐸

[@treyxaviermusic]

I think this is the first time I've ever been quoted third-hand before hahaha. I'M FUCKING FAMOUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSS

[@sealinski]

Oh I remember you

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

"Riffs are not a song!" - Trey -- Finn --- BTK"

[@instrumentalist28]

DISQUALIFIED!!!

[@crescendo5594]

Riffs are not a song is like 80s action movie quotable. You’re gonna be up there with “Come with me if you want to live”, and “yippie kayay, mother fucker”. Just know that with great power comes great responsibility.

[@Jim3Pap]

Wonder what his Jazz video would look like. LoL.

[@enrath4078]

The real problem with Prog (and every genre) is its lunatic fanbase simping over a genre and fighting everyone in a different camp. Music tribalism is for the weak.

[@conormurphy4328]

Hey I didn’t come here to be personally attacked

[@cherrypopscile3385]

I'm sorry sir, I only listen to Melodic progressive black death viking core metal, everything else is utter trash and if you enjoy it, you don't know what REAL music is

[@enrath4078]

@@conormurphy4328 Sorry bb lol

[@enrath4078]

@@cherrypopscile3385 bro it’s PAINFUL how accurate that is

[@tromboneman4517]

Darn right. Music tribalism kills music more than anything else. There is more than one good genre of music. Isn’t that the whole point of progressive music?

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

Thank you for making this!

[@andrewgiovannini3382]

Hey yo Finn I really enjoy both of your channels!

[@manifestgtr]

Heh nice…

[@youknowimright.3137]

it's not hard to write a butt rock hook.

[@doydivision3984]

@@youknowimright.3137 Ok, and?

[@gshumway8676]

Good to see you here.

[@williamdavidpitt9938]

Finn's a marketing guy so generally, his critique of any genre kinda boils down to the same thing: strategies for bands and genres to expand their audience. Because of this, he tends to approach genre talk from a "dumb guy" normie perspective, which is fine, but I'm not gonna lie, I found myself getting a little cross with some of his observations in this video.

[@Matt-sl1wg]

He's the musical equivalent of "Tom from Boston" trying to make a YT Sports Channel.

[@MetalGamer666]

He doesn't like classic music, then, I guess.

[@ThinWhiteLuke]

⁠@@MetalGamer666 he told me in the comments his favorite music is Pop and his favorite artist is Tate McRae. I thought he was joking at the time, but he just released a pretty eye opening video about his opinion on Punk rock. He should probably change his name to “The Pop MBA”.

[@MetalGamer666]

@@ThinWhiteLuke I don't know who Tate McRae is, but from the name, I'm guessing some kind of country-western-pop artist. Also, if he doesn't like punk, that's fine. In punk the music is secondary to the message, so I don't really take it seriously as a music genre.

[@PhilTheModMan]

All that matters in music is actually blast beats.

[@winstoncarter2119]

You are a true scholar good sir!

[@mvunit3]

Especially if the track has no other instrument, just the drums and blast beats :p.

[@mvunit3]

Btw - "Phil the Blastbeat and Sax Man", have you heard "Ihshan - A Grave Inversed"?

[@crescendo5594]

I’ve never opened myself this way, but life is ours; we live it our way. You know what I mean, with this definitely 100% unique to me thought?

[@PhilTheModMan]

@@mvunit3 I've listened to a number of Ihsahn songs. This may or may not be among those.

[@drummessiah88]

Just off the top.of my head, "ROUNDABOUT" by YES is a perfect example of a prog song that simultaneously showcases A Class virtuosic musicianship, while also having great melodies and catchy hooks. You could make a case for bands like ELP, Genesis and King Crimson doing the same thing.

[@AAB4ttery]

The song literally became apart of a meme lol

[@aristotle5698]

Indiscipline is catchy as hell lol

[@awookieandagerman]

I started thinking about King Crimson not far into hearing Punk Rock MBA's criticisms. Everyone knows Robert Fripp can play circles around most guitarists from his era, yet how often does he care to show that off on classic KC material? In The Court Of The Crimson King is possible their signature track (perhaps after Starless and 21st Century Schizoid Man), and yet it neglects to feature wild and crazy guitar Frippery. Just a really strong chorus, some really moody verses, and wave after wave of symphonic bliss via layers of mellotron, guitar, and woodwinds. The most show offy thing in the whole song is the drums, and I bet the reason for all those crazy drum fills has more to do with keeping the (somewhat repetitive) piece moving forward than the drummer feeling like he needs to prove something. Or take a song like Red. How often do you get a prog instrumental without a discernible solo section? Red is just a tightly wound instrumental composition built around some incredibly compelling and wonderfully dissonant riffs and melodies that take you on a journey of fire and ice for 6ish minutes. No showing off required! But we all know from other KC songs every member of that band is capable of blowing your socks off talent wise, and they certainly bring that level of complexity into any piece that asks for it, but this enough should be proof that great prog bands don't get lost in endless noodling or riff salad.

[@philippopescu7563]

Not to mention most of Jethro Tull

[@aristotle5698]

@@philippopescu7563 Why Prog is a great thing, NONE OF THE BANDS EVER SOUND ALIKE!

[@TVert-fy2gy]

I absolutely disagree that prog is strictly a guitarists' world. Geddy Lee, Linus Klausenitzer are only two examples of phenomenal bassists that shine just as brightly as the axe slingers.

[@1norwood1]

I'm a keyboard player. I was inspired to start playing it from Prog bands like Uriah Heep and Pink Floyd. If it wasn't for songs like Us and Them or Circle of Hands I'd have never have started playing. Oh and Genesis/ Peter Gabriel too. For more modern prog I really like The Mars Volta.

[@SeymoreSparda]

When Geddy Lee was asked about what he was thinking, about a thrash song that was played to him in an interview, he went like, oh the type of music that keeps the bassists as backups for the guitarists, something to that effect, and apologized after. Not that I'm badmouthing thrash as a genre, I love thrash, but you get my point. Also, prog thrash exists. Had he been played a prog thrash song that time, maybe he would have given us a different answer to that question.

[@einarabelc5]

Uh...Go back to the 70s kid...ELP, Yes, even Genesis...not even an argument.

[@Pundit07]

Hell, I’ll even advocate for Tool here, considering that a huge part of their distinct sound comes from the bassist and the drummer.

[@RyanMMA]

You forgot the biggest one. Roger waters lol

[@Roadiedave]

Dude. Thank you! I have had major issues with Mr. Punk Rock MBA on nearly every video he puts out. He's a huge fan of taking broad swipes at stuff he doesn't know anything about, and an even bigger fan of his own opinion.

[@LeglessWonder]

Yep. Used to dig him, he had some pretty good videos. Then idk what happened but he started doing exactly what you said and Ive stopped watching

[@SRMoore1178]

Yeah, Mr. Punk Rock is a little up his own ass. I like some prog. I get annoyed when music critics use terms like "self-induldent" or "pretentious" when describing music. Musicians should play what they like and if they gain like-minded fans from it, more power to them. Making music trying to please other people is a fools game.

[@donniehoffman4738]

PR MBA "I love catchy vocals and big hooks!" Same Guy "power metal is cringe, not like pop punk!" Same Guy "Prog sucks, here's a bunch of videos of Malmstein" I couldn't take him seriously after shit like that. The guy is a marketer, not a musician. He can't play shit, he doesn't write music. He's frankly over opinionated and under educated (in terms of the genres he talks about). He's a walking Febreeze commercial in a flat bill hat. His musical arguments are the equivalent of "Taco Bell makes more money so it must be better than a 5 star restaurant".

[@davidwinn2575]

He is one hundred percent doing it on purpose. He knows a controversial take gets way more engagement, but also makes most of his commentary way less insightful or useful as it could be.

[@waltjames407]

I agree with a lot of what he says, but when he starts in with his 'All prog fans are wanky guitarists...' and 'prog fans prioritize how fast you can play and tone and string gauge' he totally lost me. I agree that there is plenty of wanky prog out there that has no discernible hooks or structure, but there is also prog with good writing, structure, and melodic and rhythmic hooks...all of which fly in the face of what he claims.

[@MegaNancyLover]

What I love about you man is that you seem to always argue in good faith. You accurately interpret and establish the person’s intended premise and _then_ construct a rebuttal against that; instead of arguing a strawman premise that wasn’t even conveyed by the opposing party. People, especially in politics, have a tendency of doing the opposite and it infuriates me to no end because it’s ultimately a waste of time trying to rebut an argument that wasn’t even made in the first place.

[@LeglessWonder]

Couldn’t agree more! It seems like more and more folks try to out do that joke about social media: “Man I love hamburgers” -“So you hate hotdogs?!”

[@MegaNancyLover]

@@LeglessWonder Very well said!

[@alphaenemyplus8376]

Me: "Oh, progressive music is problematic? Ok." *goes back to listening to Opeth*

[@MrHamtits]

Wow

[@icipher6730]

@@MrHamtits wOW

[@amanbhakta4524]

W0w

[@igorlemes1123]

actually, good idea! it's Ghost Reveries time!

[@jonathansmith3976]

@@igorlemes1123 Its Always Ghost Reveries time...

[@Zestran]

You should go on the Punk Rock MBAs podcast. It'd been cool to hear you guys actually discuss this stuff

[@BecomeTheKnight]

I'd be honored. Finn seems like a super cool dude.

[@Sid00077]

I don't get the MBA guy's fixation on writing catchy choruses and vocal melodies. There's genre that does exactly that all the effing time. I got into prog because I got tired of just that. I got into death metal because I was tired of pop punk bands all doing the same thing (writing catchy choruses and vocal melodies). Art is subjective. While I agree with some of his point, he fails to understand that people who listen to prog value things that the mainstream crowd probably don't. Nothing wrong with either. I enjoy bands like Green Day that are all about catchy riffs/melodies but I also enjoy bands like Pain of Salvation that delve into aspects of music that Green Day won't/can't.

[@VoIcanoman]

Same. 100%. Pain of Salvation is awesome.

[@redneckreviews3016]

See here's the thing. Finn is all about the business side. While Mike is all about the technical side of playing. So both have their places. Both have good and bad points.

[@Sid00077]

@@redneckreviews3016 I agree with that. I just found more strawman arguments in Finn's points that I did in Mike points. Furthermore, reducing Dream Theater to just technical wankery and ignoring songs like Wither, The spirit carries on, Hollow years does a huge injustice to the variety in their catalogue. That's like me criticizing rap as a genre on the basis of few artists like Cardi B. Ig you see my point. And to not consider the target audience when talking about business side of things is rather absurd.

[@calebhawk6868]

@@redneckreviews3016 The issue is that his business advice is normally "be more like pop", which doesn't work for a lot of genres. Prog is inherently trying not to be pop, so saying "just make it catchier and focus more on vocals and making a 'good song'" is just half assed advice on a genre he clearly doesn't understand very well.

[@redneckreviews3016]

@@calebhawk6868 sure. But what would sell more. Prog rock. Or pop punk with breakdowns? Lol like I said. I love Mike. And I love Finn. Both make valid points. The funny thing is. My genre is country. And in that world. Pop also sells n

[@weebtrash6932]

I think Rush is a perfect example of what a prog band should start out and develop as. When they got to Hemispheres they realised that they were burning themselves out with the long songs and complex arrangements, do when it came to Permanent Waves they made a point to shorten the songs and focus on more of a direct approach. While they abandoned the long song format (mostly 😂) they never sacrificed musicianship, they were playing just as busy as they were but limiting their approach to shorter songs gave them more focus on 'catchy' chorus' and made them better songwriters and gave them a leeway to more experimentation within the pop format while still being prog. You can have your cake and eat it too.

[@juandelgadillo2656]

this dude really said any lorde is better than any dream theater 🤦‍♂️

[@dylanbourne4880]

I think the underlying issue is semantic. When someone says “prog” there is no way of knowing if they mean good shit like Porcupine tree or Devin Townsend versus everything in the Djent genre tree. It’s true that us Djent bois are in a very reductive time music wise and I think the heart of Finn’s critique is based on that, whereas you see prog for what it is because you are integrated in that ecosystem. To a common listener and the general perception of the public Finn is right, but also as someone in the ecosystem I see where you are coming from as well. I think you’re both right you are both just looking at a picture from different angles. The biggest thing I got from Finns original video is a critique that really resonated with me. After I discovered the Polyphia’s and Periphery’s of the world I have had an immensely difficult time writing music that I consider worthwhile, and consequently putting more focus on the simple hooks and melodies rather than how fast or how complex might be a better answer for me in my journey, but also I can see where a prog “purist” would critique his position as well.

[@BecomeTheKnight]

This is a damn good comment

[@The12thAvenger]

Porcupine tree is the direct counter to everything he accuses prog of.

[@postmodernmarxistnihilist4282]

@@The12thAvenger Sorry but Porcupine Tree and steve wilson still suffers from the rehash of old ideas from the golden era of prog rock. While Im a fan of their music, it resonates with me because it sounds old school. If you're talking about riff/technical wankery then I'll agree to a certain point that porcupine tree doesn't do that in their music.

[@kanglongshankz3313]

@@postmodernmarxistnihilist4282 It's incorrect to call them rehashes as opposed to just influenced by. Especially PT which is a very modern interpretation of prog. Granted, 'The Sky Moves Sideways' is certainly wearing the Pink Floyd influence on it's sleeve (Steven himself dislikes the album for that reason and changed the sound for Signify) and Raven by Steven Wilson has many trad prog tropes and was meant to embody the prog rock sound, but even that's 1/10 PT albums and 1/6 Steven Wilson albums that are close to being 'rehashes.' The rest of his discography are just prog influences, equally alongside pop, alt rock, ambience, metal, space rock, techno (Up the Downstair), krautrock etc.

[@joshjamesguitar]

So, anything under the Djent tree is bad? So Spiritbox is therefore bad for example?

[@notapplicable2515]

I like how the camera goes out of focus to indicate suppressed anger inside.

[@TJP5.0]

Sounds like Finn has never had some good slow-cooked BBQ. Jokes aside, Finn is a business coach and he is looking into marketability as the most important aspect. While it is important for market success, it is not what most musicians look for in music. This is definitely a difference in world view.

[@BecomeTheKnight]

That makes sense! That actually brings more of the video into context. I appreciate that 🤘

[@TJP5.0]

@@BecomeTheKnight No worries man, but you are definitely right that Prog is not what is holding Rock/Metal back. It was very interesting to hear what you had to say about "real prog" being the artists that have moved and shaped the genre over the years. Great video!

[@jeffreypalmers9161]

Love the BBQ comparison, because I feel it's appropriate, people definitely do appreciate the time and patience someone puts into good barbecue.

[@theyescapedtheweightofdarkness]

'Marketability is the most important thing in music' this is complete and utter bullshit. Let's take rush for example; caress of steel was a commercial failure because of 'too long and forgettable songs' (I love caress of steel this is just what critics thought) so rush wrote 2112. They'd rather be forgotten writing songs they can be proud of, instead of shitty pop music that makes money. This is why they're my favourite band and have such a big cult following

[@n1ghth4wk28]

Once you mentioned the "sandwich analogy" i instantly thought of "This Is Not A Song, It's A Sandwich" by Psychostick and i laughed quite a bit lol but otherwise i agree with all you said being an aspiring musician, I notice both sides of the coin and its always been difficult to define but i think you somewhat defined this issue quite well.

[@phylazen5649]

you got my sub with the mr bungle snippet. lets be honest, no other metal band in the world could recreate Mr Bungle - Disco Volante. Not only a prog masterpiece, but a truly jarring noise music featuring 40's classical and even spanish elements amongst the litany of other influences.

[@METALBIRB]

Thank you for making a rebuttal video. I felt like Finn's video was really narrow minded at times and came from a place of baseless opinions and not actual facts or evidence. So many of his complaints with prog actually originated in classical music which you refer to a lot as well. Wish he titled his video "MY problem with modern progressive metal" but that wouldn't warrant as many clicks, but it would get more validity. I also started his video the same, kind of agreeing he's making some good points but then lost me at the end. Oh and those were great examples you used at the end, Leprous - Below, Dirty Loops etc. And my song of choice that goes against Finn would be The Dear Hunter - A Night On The Town

[@Laros82]

Hell Yea Birb🤘🏻 Nice seing you here

[@crypticutopia7228]

Ay great to see you here, love your channel

[@paravarium]

Moar prog reactions.. nom nom :]

[@hellspawnvicious9990]

Came from a place of baseless opinions rather than facts and evidence That’s basically all of Finn’s videos on genres he doesn’t like in a nutshell

[@jaspermcminnis5538]

He has a video about trap metal. In that video, he says something of the likes of metalheads not liking it because they might be racist. Despite metal having inspiration in the blues and many other genres.

[@conormurphy4328]

Mike: “sing Beethoven’s 5th” Me: *”Dun Dun Dun Dun”*

[@dominikweber4305]

And then the badass climax

[@guitarplayer1434]

no...no.... not star wars

[@firemarshal2629]

Dun Dun Dun Duuuunnn

[@tylerm8145]

Heeeeey sing it if you know it!

[@calebhawk6868]

I think Finn sometimes knows what he’s talking about, especially in the punk sphere. But most of his videos that branch away from that consist of opinions based on general, usually incorrect assumptions of something, then acting like he’s an expert. He tries to simplify things down, but he does it to such a degree that he’s misrepresenting it

[@jeffreypalmers9161]

It always kills me when he gives his opinion on melodic death metal. He basically says he doesn't understand it because death metal "shouldn't have melody" and melodic death metal ignores it and he "doesn't get it" like who made these rules?!

[@calebhawk6868]

@@jeffreypalmers9161 Exactly lol. Pretty sure he also said something along the lines of "Doom metal isn't really worth talking about because every doom metal band ever is just trying to sound like Black Sabbath". He seems educated in the metal industry, but in an actual musical sense he really never seems to know what he's talking about, and acts like his knowledge of a couple underground bands gives him a pass to spew half assed, uneducated opinions.

[@MarkQuick0411]

I really don’t care about what he likes or dislikes I find his Business knowledge more interesting of than appeal his preferences Although he’s got some good taste

[@jonathanhenderson9422]

​@@calebhawk6868 At least in terms of the original doom metal bands he's not entirely wrong. Doom's evolved some since then but it basically started as Sabbath-worship. FWIW, I still don't think the genre has bettered Candlemass. They're one of the few bands that I think actually held a candle (pun intended) to Sabbath.

[@calebhawk6868]

@@MarkQuick0411 I don't care what he likes. It's fine if he doesn't like melodic death metal, I don't really either. But saying it's a worthless genre because he doesn't personally like it is just dumb, and he makes those kinds of comments all the time. I think he has a lot of good takes on the business side of things, but they lose some weight to me when he constantly shows how much he misunderstands the genres he's trying to comment on.

[@Bablobiggins]

Sitting here trying to picture Lorde restraining herself from including a million of odd time signature beats and guitar riffs and face melting solos in Royals.

[@unnamed7481]

Lorde and Misha Mansoor making a song together when?

[@daoyang223]

​@@unnamed7481 never lol But who knows.

[@TheBlackQueen]

Some of the songs that have moved me more than any other music I've ever heard: Echoes by Pink Floyd Supper's Ready by Genesis 2112 by Rush Octavarium by Dream Theater Close To The Edge by Yes A Day In The Life by The Beatles Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen Karn Evil 9 by Emerson, Lake & Palmer Larks Tongues In Aspic Part II by King Crimson Lateralus by Tool Tubular Bells by Mike Oldfield This isn't even close to the amount of amazing songs that have touched me more than say a lot of Michael Jackson songs, and Michael Jackson is my favourite artist. This misguided view that Prog fails in making songs is just inaccurate, unless of course you're just talking about modern Prog which I largely avoided so maybe that's accurate. But since he didn't exclude older Prog in his video despite mentioning it, it sounds like he blatantly disregarded the fact that those bands were also Prog. Overall, I think it's obvious that he hasn't listened to enough Prog to really have a valid say on the genre. I don't like what I've heard from a bunch of artists, but I won't make a whole rant video on "The Problem with X Artist" video because I don't have a fair grasp on the genre. I can criticise Rap and Hip Hop because I grew up with it played in my house and my dad's truck a lot as a kid and I have listened to many albums recommended by friends who do like the genres and say these are the albums to check out. But I can't criticise Post Malone because I've literally only heard about 4 songs from him, 2 of which were Ozzy Osbourne collabs. I don't have enough grasp on his sound, but the bits I've heard from him in addition to the albums I've heard from Kendrick Lamar, Kanye West, and Eminem and a bunch of other artists give me a wider picture of the genre and I can more easily tell what is pushing me away from liking certain aspects.

[@postmodernmarxistnihilist4282]

Kendrick, kanye west and eminem are literally the meat and potatoes of rap genre right now so I wouldn't consider it a wider picture.

[@TheBlackQueen]

@@postmodernmarxistnihilist4282 I also work at a Hip Hop studio in Hollywood so I am not only listening to it, but I'm directly involved in the recording of it.

[@qriofficial1769]

My personal most poignant, no particular order: Revolver Pet Sounds The Velvet Underground & Nico ITCOTCK (especially I Talk To The Wind) A Saucerful Of Secrets (title track) Meddle (Echoes) Pawn Hearts In The Land Of Grey And Pink CTTE/Tales Song For America Caress Of Steel (especially The Fountain Of Lamneth) Still Life (Pilgrims) Cobra And Phases Yanqui UXO Sea Monopoly or Worry Stone

[@EzioMonty117]

Woah. A channel with the name "PunkRockMBA" has grudges against prog? Now THIS i gotta see!

[@jensengrieve3185]

yes

[@francescoideo9330]

He had some good points tho

[@MultiTaz333]

@@francescoideo9330 lol no

[@francescoideo9330]

@@MultiTaz333 k, it's fine to disagree

[@eere3343]

@@francescoideo9330 I can see how it would sound like good points to people that didn't listen to prog or thought Dream Theater is what prog all prog sounds like.

[@Yenneffer]

I just don't think every song is meant to be a hit song, and that's okay. Some music is made for more niche audiences than others. Lorde and Dream Theater just have so little in common it feels like a really weird comparison. Why is it a bad thing if prog appeals more to other musicians and music enthusiasts than your general public? Some people enjoy dancey pop music, some people enjoy 15 minute prog epics, some people enjoy jazz, some people enjoy the 0-0-0-0-0-0 in djent,some people enjoy the riff salads, some people enjoy EDM... And it's okay. There's never gonna be a song that's for everyone. I think Mike's CCM videos made a very good point about why it is not a good thing when music is made to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

[@egglordsasuke8532]

Personally, I find the compositions of progressive music to be interesting, and a breath of fresh air. I like many genres, but I dont just hear technical prowess in progressive - the unusual structures make me feel unique emotional experiences that other genres don't make me feel precisely.

[@rebeccassweetmusic4632]

I agree!

[@viniciusbertucci]

The first problem I have with most Prog is that I don't think the songwriting is good at all. The bands focus on adding tons of different sections and ideias that are poorly connected with one another just to pad the song and give this idea of "progressiveness", while all this padding does not add any substance to the music. The second problem is that all these "Prog" bands seem to be unable to write memorable hooks, melodies and themes. A lot of the time is meandering. The biggest offender is definitely Dream Theater. And these are problems that you don't hear in Classical music most of the time (Baroque, Classical and Romantic).

[@artimmenersilvers7841]

@@viniciusbertucci I think you’re crazy if you think dream theater is unable to write memorable hooks/lines. Just look at songs from pretty much any of their albums, especially their singles

[@viniciusbertucci]

@@artimmenersilvers7841 I think DT will always have some good hooks/lines in each of their albums, but most of the time they fail at it for me. Memorable... I don't think so (that's just me). I've been listening to DT since 2005, but have ultimately got tired of their sound that never seem to change and evolve. It's the same formula, the opposite of progression.

[@awookieandagerman]

Oh totally this. I'm not a detractor of well written and performed pop songs, but I like to take breaks from pop formulas pretty frequently and prog is about my favorite way to do so. A great prog song (or album for that matter) focuses on the composition probably even moreso than the virtuoso playing (though probably because, given that the players are indeed virtuosos, that part is just a given). Supper's Ready for instance. Are the players each masters of their instruments? Of course! But does that get in the way of composing a thoroughly riveting musical and lyrical journey from the mundane to the cataclysmic and back and forth again? Never! The playing is incredibly advanced, but only shows off when appropriate (like during the headspinning Tony Banks keyboard solo during Apocalypse in 9/8, where Phil Collins has to balance between a solo pretending its playing in 4, and a guitar/bass riff solidly plodding out 9). The composition is a work of art, and a journey that rewards repeat listens in a way most pop songs, however tightly written, cannot manage to do.

[@MetalLee1234]

I do love how Finn goes on about “wankery complexity” yet he uses video clips from one of the most straightforward Dream Theater songs which was an accidental radio hit with a great chorus.

[@CynHicks]

As a metal head that grew up on 80s thrash, when DT came out I instantly loved it. Blew my mind. It was honestly exactly what I was craving and hearing in my head. I had only been playing for about a year at that point so I couldn't touch it. Lol Great video. Almost 100 percent agree.

[@yeeshanmalik8353]

The fact that dream theater can have a piece as complex as dance of eternity and as simple as Through her eyes , even the spirit carries on (or take opeth's ghost reveries for example) is what's amazing to me. The guy in the video ( no not you mike ) has definitely NOT done his research properly. Prog musicians (most of 'em) surely know how to restrain themselves. I find it funny when people who only listen to "billboard's top 10" comment on how all prog sounds the same , the hypocrisy is just unreal .

[@Jordan-Ramses]

He never does research. He just vomits out videos and tries to look cool. He's a total poser. The people who like his channel are also shallow small brained posers. I agree with some of the things he said but he's just repeating things that he heard other people say. He doesn't even have opinions of his own.

[@yeeshanmalik8353]

@@Jordan-Ramsestotally agreed!

[@Jordan-Ramses]

@@yeeshanmalik8353 - He complains that Metal bands don't compose songs or write catchy hooks. Babymetal actually does that. He made a video trashing them and didn't even bother listening to a single song. He formed that expert opinion based on their 'reputation'. Babymetal won an international award for best live band in 2017 over Nightwish and Slipknot. You can not like Babymetal. You can thnk they're bad but you have to at least watch one song live performed between 2015 and 2017. He didn't even listen to a studio track of one song.

[@michaelflorczyk1394]

He actually said in the comment section of his video that he is doing this crap just to get more views. He is making negative content about other styles of music just to piss people off and get the views just to take home some cash.

[@UNHchabo]

As a big Dream Theater fan, my main criticism is they have so many songs that end up being a standard pop composition (Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus/Bridge/Chorus), just with a 5-minute meandering solo section attached to the bridge! :D "The Ministry of Lost Souls" is probably the best example coming to mind. So it's funny to me that he thinks they have no structure to their songs, when arguably they use the standard song structure as a crutch.

[@danielgreen2538]

Bohemian Rhapsody is the most popular and catchy prog song of all time

[@stunpeenmann]

Agreed

[@scottbulinski5450]

Lol not even prog

[@_PuppetMaster86]

@@scottbulinski5450 On Wikipedia it’s considered progressive rock; progressive pop.

[@pascalg16]

@@scottbulinski5450 It is prog for me.

[@isaacdyballmusic8622]

@@scottbulinski5450 I disagree, Mike pointed out that prog isn’t just about how technical or complex the music is (even though it is a very complex song) but “progressive music” means something which pushes forward and bohemian rhapsody defiantly did that.

[@IsasHappyHour]

the czech republic gonna be mad about this one

[@frantiseksvarc1672]

What Czech band do you have in mind, exactly?

[@tinflesh]

@@frantiseksvarc1672 I think it might be a joke saying that ‘prog’ sounds like ‘Prague’ and it is mentioned relentlessly on this video!😂

[@IsasHappyHour]

@Turnips thank you, i try

[@particlejim]

Watching this with the subtitles on is giving me a good laugh

[@lizardjesus]

As someone who owes prog rock for being my greatest inspiration and obsession back when I was really starting to get into music after hearing The Mars Volta's Inertiatic ESP, I can't help but to now think about something Robert Fripp said about prog being an attitude and instead of style. What I consider truly progressive is music that mixes the aesthetic challenging nature of Art rock along with the experimental song writing of Avant Garde music. The prog bands of the past like Pink Floyd, Yes, Frank Zappa and King Crimson did exactly that whether it be through the production and composition. Especially the last two considering Zappa being Zappa and King Crimson also following their contemporaries down the rabbit hole of 80's new wave but with their own highly experimental take on the genre. The Mars Volta is also another band I would kind of point to as truly prog. The influences they took from old school prog was just one of the many sounds they took inspiration from which included Latin music, Post-Hardcore, Kraut/Space/Psychedelic rock, Electronic music, Jazz and Blues, creating what I would consider a pretty one of a kind sound for its time. If there's anything I picked up from your video, it's that what we consider progressive music is progressive, but not for the reasons we think. We've become so fixated on the qualities associated with prog that we basically forgot what it truly means to be progressive and as a result, we have a vocal minority that champion these quality as the number one defining characteristic of a music worth and end up celebrating bands that we call prog for ironically recycling attributes of the past that used to define early prog, rather than pushing the envelope.

[@AjaxTheYeti]

A civil, well thought out discussion. This is wonderful. I applaud you for not going the caveman route. Would love to hear you two together. Well done.

[@MidnightAvalon]

Prog is amazing when its combining inspirations into these beautiful combinations like Rush and Metallica making Dream Theater, or Messhuggah and pop making Periphery. It's not beautiful when people look at previous prog and think "that's great because it's complex." It leads to absolute flavorlessness complexity for complexity's sake.

[@The_ScapeGoat]

Like DT music

[@lakejizzio7777]

Meshuggah and Pop making Periphery is the best statement ever.

[@jeffreypalmers9161]

Not necessarily metal, but a lot of stuff by Rush is progressive while being mega catchy. I mean, YYZ has no lyrics or singing, and people love it, that beginning part is super catchy. Also a good amount of their hits have fairly standard structures, but they weave their musicianship into these catchy, almost poppy tunes in a way that doesn't sound weird or out of place.

[@cacho2112]

There's a reason they're my favorite band

[@spiderman4x]

There’s a reason why they’re so popular. Rush perfected the art of complicated and catchy.

[@jeffreypalmers9161]

@@cacho2112 same, man.

[@adnsaurus]

Kansas has a similar strenght and quality, catchy tunes but complex in their own way

[@robwalsh9843]

Plus, Rush started out as a straight forward Led Zeppelin-worshiping hard rock band with a blue collar appeal on their first album. Then they began incorporating prog influences and toured their asses off in their early career. They pushed themselves and found success on different fronts.

[@sniktythwip5524]

Of all the prog bands to dump on regarding “riff salad” he could have found way better examples than DT, Rush, and Pink Floyd. They have entire albums that qualify as compositional masterpieces. Yeah, they feature sick riffs and solos, but they absolutely qualify as “songs” instead of a confused tangle of disconnected and unrelated riffs.

[@awookieandagerman]

For riff salad, please see Time Does Not Heal by Dark Angel. Oh, what's that? They aren't listed as prog by wikipedia... hmm... maybe you started writing your argument based on your own opinions and hypotheses before doing your research then, Mr. Punk Rock "MBA."

[@spiderman4x]

That stuff was added by Mike. Not originally on Finn’s video. Mike was showing examples of the vast variety of what’s prog.

[@aaronazagoth6373]

Exactly! Using Pink Floyd, Porcupine Tree and Rush is insane. They all have composed entire albums of genius.

[@richardblack3385]

At one time yes

[@allyourbasearebelongtous2191]

I think a good point to make when talking about Drean Theater is fans of them can't imagine people NOT liking them. If someone just doesn't like them it's always because they aren't skilled at their instrument or they don't understand music. Not saying you feel that way but your reaction to when Minn Fickminty said the thing about Royals reminded me. Nice video dude.

[@mitchells7634]

Chord progressions, Pop: I-V-vi-IV Prog: 💥-🔥-💔-💢-💯-🔄

[@smithfan22]

Grabbing a Big Mac on the way to a Green Day concert sounds hella fun tbh

[@mynameisrosiex4555]

felt this

[@joeyhardin5903]

same except for the bit sbout the green day concert

[@smithfan22]

@@joeyhardin5903 well you're not invited

[@shofarkillz596]

@@joeyhardin5903 oooo you’re soooo cool for not liking Green Day dude. Save some pussy for the rest of us

[@asloii_1749]

Five guys >>>>

[@scottmcgregor562]

Keith Emerson once said "What some people call self indulgence, I call ambitious". Prog has got to stand in line behind jazz if you're are going to point the finger of arrogant self indulgence. A know a ton of "punks" that feel this self importance of "keeping it real" (rap is king at this) and feel like musical prowess is a lack of soul. There is no such thing as "pure rock"or pure music for that matter. Although I will say that prog fans bring alot of criticism on themselves.

[@andrewgarcia3136]

it's okay to not be talented and want to make music but it's not ok to shit on making ambitious music and taking your craft seriously

[@scottmcgregor562]

@@andrewgarcia3136 yes for sure. I have been guilty of measuring everything by my passion. An author is only as good as the words he knows. I have a much broader musical vocabulary now. Which has kept music alive for me. When I stopped being curious, my love for music died. When I discovered the music of Japan I actually fell in love with rock again.

[@zerospacer]

It took me awhile to notice the pattern that I would find that I liked music that was described as "self-indulgent" or "pretentious" junk. lol I finally realized that listening to music critics was not a good idea except to check out the music they dismissed in this way, and that they (at least used to) have a strong bias towards dirty rocknroll they saw as having street cred or angsty lead singers, or any aa music like jazz or r&b or hip-hop. Basically writer nerds vicariously simping for what they saw as countercultural heroes. I mean, these people think Blonde On Blonde or White Light/White Heat are revelations and drool over every obscure punk or indie band (some of it is great of course). Remember, it was the punks who tried to gatekeep rock in the 70s. They are just as elitist or more so. I remember in the 90s that even something like Mellon Collie by SP was dismissed as indulgent and pretentious.

[@scottmcgregor562]

@@zerospacer well put. Oh,you forgot about Leonard Cohen and Captain Beefheart.

[@robwalsh9843]

I think both sides of the coin compliment each other. Simpler music and complex music both have their strengths. In the early 80's a lot of post-punk artists began treading paths that prog musicians - often framed as the hated enemy of punk rockers - already made, like using synthesizers and differing song structures.

[@themasterrogerdelgado]

Anyone can pick apart any genre. Art is subjective and hopefully will stay that way.

[@solarwinds5114]

Well said

[@csukovitsgyuri2507]

Couldn't say better!

[@gavinsnyder5627]

People pick apart music like it's an objective observation. While at the core any form of art is subjective. Unless you're simply citing objective feats of bands or individual musicians everyone will think differently in terms of what's considered good or bad music. There is no objective conception of "good" art relative to "bad" art. It's literally just an opinion. Please, for the love of all things holy don't feed into the notion that there's a criteria for what's regarded as "good" art. By doing such a thing it would only result in a narrower spectrum of artistic expression. The beauty behind art being subjective is what allows the broad varieties we have. Now, you might not personally like much of what's out there, but atleast you don't have to rely on black and white as your options. Whoever believes someone else's conception of what qualifies as "good" art, is being robbed of their subjective experience. I've been a guitar player for nearly 20 years an always loved music as far back as I can remember. I have no idea what "good" music is for anyone other than myself. An if I don't personally like a certain band or song, I wouldn't say it's bad in an objective sense. I'd just say I don't personally dig it. You might think somethings the greatest song in the world and believe it's the best contribution of musical expression. Who am I or anyone to say otherwise. You could even say that there's gotta be some kind of line or cut-off, but the truth is even things most of society would consider to be crap will have someone who finds it beautiful.

[@falconsii1031]

Well said

[@charlesmartiniii1405]

@@gavinsnyder5627 but thats just not true. Objectively a song can have more interesting composition, or better mixing, or better performances. If songs are subjective then why do songwriters try to improve. Complex doesn't equal better but in general some music is better than other music

[@tylerm8145]

Man I was hoping you'd use three or four examples from the song Octavarium itself, but I'm honestly pretty damn satisfied with the amount and variety of the examples that you gave. The scope of the album Octavarium is insane dude. Some of DTs greatest work to this day imo. Images and Words, and Awake are probably my favorites tbh but that's beside the point. DT is certainly guilty of the aforementioned riff salad and masturbation at times, but their variety of material and style over the span of their career is astounding and sort of shoots that point in the foot. On the whole I'd say their focus has almost always been on songwriting vs writing things soley to blow your mind. It'd be easy to argue the other way based on their inhuman level of technicality, but it's my genuine opinion those parts almost ALWAYS still serve the song, and that is by no means the only thing they do. Periphery and many, many other bands in the scene started from a place of "look what I can do!" in attempts to garner attention from fans and record labels. And it completely worked imo. Though they're fewer and further between, I can think of tons of older songs from them and their contemporaries that absolutely contain super catchy hooks and unique, memorable song structures. I'd argue that they've pulled back a ton after P2, and even a bit on P2 to leave room for vocals and focus on writing cohesive songs as opposed to hyper technical riff salad. They've mentioned that was a problem in older material. The songs were already very much established, and Spencer had an insanely tough time fitting anything in that could compete with the hella layers of instruments and achieving cohesiveness. All that said, dude. For myself and many people I've talked to over the years, often times all it takes to make me give a shit and pay attention to a band is a riff. I grew up loving video game sound tracks which snowballed directly into my love for metal. I just fucking loved catchy, powerful riffs, whether they were impressive and technical or just plain impactful. I was even fairly turned off by screaming vocals at the start. Over time though, I grew to FUCKING LOVE just the general aggression and energy, and the song structures of metal and other heavy types of music. The passion in good and genuine heavy music is palpable and to me, that is the real magic. Tldr: I understand the distaste for riff salad, but sometimes all you need is that big dick riffs to bring things together. It has its place in prog too. Thank you, good night.

[@JerryBaezAlchemus]

This video response cannot be more perfect! Everything that I wanted to say has been already been said by you. Thank you for making this video!

[@jasonorme3500]

The problem with Finns takes is that he's right as often as hes wrong and it makes for pointless viewing.

[@instrumentalist28]

He's 100% wrong in the prog dilemma.

[@tylerm8145]

@@instrumentalist28 thank you for having the same opinion is me. To OPs point tho, I can't think of anything else to say other than perpetual "content"

[@instrumentalist28]

@@tylerm8145 MBA guy is into trendy and faddish styles of music like that "core" stuff (nothing wrong with that). So these styles he ignorantly claims to be "problems" probably would go over his head. And I guess making music that appeals to musicians and not little kids is a grave sin 🙄...please

[@tylerm8145]

@@instrumentalist28 agreed man. I personally love a ton of metalcore too, and a bit of death core and hardcore. He's more interested in "commercially viable" bands it seems, and all this prog shit is too niche for him to think is any good. Which is cool, but he DOES tend to spout his opinions as fact which is pretty obnoxious.

[@adeptdamage3669]

What is Finn right and wrong about?

[@somefucker6968]

Bleak by Opeth is one of the best examples of a prog song that's still very accessible. Granted the first 3 or so minutes are definitely not gonna be everyone's cup of tea but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who can't get down with the chorus section onwards. Hell the song doesn't even really have a solo despite being 9 minutes long yet it does so much without ever going overboard

[@robwalsh9843]

Although a lot of people dislike Geddy Lee's vocals, the same is true of Rush. They got big both by having high levels of musicianship and writing catchy songs.

[@Rassalcon]

Bleak is the reason a like growls. I liked the song too much to care about not liking the vocals, until one day I liked them too

[@rcengineer]

Personally I prefer The Leper Affinity but sure

[@The_ScapeGoat]

I love that Bleak builds fiwn to its solo instead of up. The harsh beginning of the song slowly fades to clean lyrics and a jazzy solo over acoustic guitars. Opeth is one of the rare metal bands that understands dynamics. Their songs are never a flat line.

[@Heatwave9000]

Deep growling vocals aren't really what I'd consider accessible. Neither is the blackened mix on this track.

[@alexandremarchand8815]

I think Opeth discography just show how wrong his take is. Take a song like Blackwater Park: tons of riffs, great songwriting, memorable, technical while sounding organic, all of this without a vocal hook or melody. You want restraint ? Fine ! Go listen to Hours of Wealth on Ghost Reveries. These are only two exemples among many others.

[@jasonashley9853]

Opeth did prog metal better than most probably. Their quality sonically is almost impossible to beat. Especially during their prog death metal era.

[@FlyingSoulworld]

People tend to confuse technical music with prog. That is the core of the problem

[@anirudhsubramanian4781]

This Comment.... I salute you sir

[@fkat1666]

Sometimes technique is having lack of technique. Hello Sex Pistols and Wire lol!!

[@StevenLynnMusic]

His sandwich analogy is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Guess we should exclusively eat Subway forever.

[@animal1439]

Love the Leprous shoutout at the end. They're one of the best progressive bands out there right now. Their song castaway angels is another example of fantastic prog while also having many pop elements

[@TheOpytimusEX]

New album hypeeee!

[@jennifer9047]

Yeah, exactly! Take THAT, "Royals". 🙄

[@sprice2344]

Fins channel purposefully looks at things through a business lens. In that sense, I feel he's right overall, the over whelming majority of people don't want to hear prog. I enjoyed both fins video and this - there's things in both I agree and disagree with. I should preface, I'm not a prog head, however I'm also not a prog hater because I have gallons and gallons of respect for the musicianship and the ability to sustain people for long periods of time (when talking about prog the 'genre'). I put ' ' around genre because I agree with you - prog shouldn't be considered a genre as it defeats its own point.

[@TheRealAb216]

he is the guy who tells up and coming bands to be radio friendly after they have built up a big fan base not being radio friendly

[@CidsaDragoon]

@@TheRealAb216 That's how you make money in music, my dude.

[@TheRealAb216]

@@CidsaDragoon plenty of cash in gear sponserships for prog bands. And as a fan i dont care what the record company thinks.

[@ksquidplaysminecraft]

@@CidsaDragoon that's how you sell your soul. might as well stop making music at that point.

[@CidsaDragoon]

@@ksquidplaysminecraft Maybe, although being a starving artist is overrated

[@CrownlessStudios]

Basically anything by early Haken invalidates his points. They were entirely focused on composition over riffs. That's a little less true on recent albums, but they still have amazing moments of composition (Host comes to mind).

[@swatchcovers5401]

Visions is a super long album but it feels shorter because of how well it flows and how well it’s composed, and it’s got hooks for days!

[@austindolan3142]

Theocracy as well

[@isaiahmumaw]

Even their more recent album still has some great moments. Virus may be extremely riffy, but yet they manage to craft solid compositions. I transcribed a couple songs and there’s a lot of nuance that is hard to notice while just listening.

[@charlesmartiniii1405]

@@isaiahmumaw but they're not just riffs. Messiah parts one through five all blend together to feel like a gigantic peice of art. Virus is one of my favorite albums of all time

[@evan-moore22]

@@charlesmartiniii1405 completely agreed. Haken has matured, and I think Affinity and Virus especially prove how excellently they can combine excellent riffs, soaring melodies, and beautiful compositions.

[@jimberjamber8540]

I'm quite late to the party on this one, but a perfect example of a prog song that flies in the face of Finn's criticism is Inmazes by VOLA. It begins with an eerie staccato synth and continues in the same time signature while the rest of the instruments play in a different time. Near the middle of the song after the first verse it changes to a more calm and melancholy sound with the staccato synth changing to soft xylophone notes, and all culminates into a beautiful ending crescendo. No wankery, no shredding, just simple heavy guitar riffs in the style of Meshuggah but with a much softer overall feeling.

[@ethangibbs3688]

I love VOLA 🤘

[@mikemcclearyify]

I'll be the first person to admit I don't know that much about prog outside of the huge bands like Rush, Dream Theatre, and Pink Floyd, but this was a really great rebuttal and made me want to dive into the genre a bit more. You sir, have a new subscriber.

[@misawa8629]

Finn always seems grossly misinformed in most of the videos I've watched of his. Sometimes his points are right on, then he'll make a point that makes me think he has no idea what he is talking about at all.

[@xp7575]

Industry rule #4,080 applies to Finn heavily

[@Vale65ntin]

Honestly his arguments are really disingenuous and it just feels like he's kinda sour. Also wtf is that sandwich argument? If someone puts more effort and time into making a sandwich, it'll probably be a damn good sandwich and I absolutely would pay more money for it.

[@Yenneffer]

I know, right?! I'm more triggered by the sandwich comment than his whole take on prog.

[@paveantelic7876]

@@Yenneffer but he was talking about the taste, or the end product. i can microwave a hot dog in 45 secs and it will just as good as if i cooked it for 10 minutes

[@Yenneffer]

Well, you're really just talking about heating the hotdog up, not actually making it (and even then that's not really true...) A hotdog made in a couple hours in a mass production will taste different from an artisan hotdog smoked on maple wood or whatever lengthy process.

[@jennifer9047]

In Sandwichland, prog is the fat, saucy muffaletta daddy! 🥙😍

[@paveantelic7876]

@@Yenneffer you're really not getting the point are you

[@CompleteProducer84]

As Mike eluded to at the end, I find it funny how MBA's closing statement is to challenge yourself to both creatively/technically, and write catchy hooky songs that appeal to everyone. A solid message overall. Yet public enemy #1 for his video was Dream Theater. A band who, since their inception, has written BOTH highly technical songs AND more accessible, hooky ones. This is a big reason DT has become arguably the biggest prog metal band over the last 30 years. Here are just some DT songs that focus more on strong vocal melodies, OR are straight up pop songs/ballads: Another Day Surrounded Pull Me Under: (Definitely has technical/proggy elements, but it was still a radio smash. That doesn't happen without some form of catchiness.) The Silent Man Lifting Shadows off a Dream Hollow Years Take Away My Pain Anna Lee Burning My Soul Home: (Again, very proggy. But he claims DT doesn't focus on catchy hooks, and this is one of the most infectious hooks I've heard. Friends of mine who hate prog even love it) The Spirit Carries On As I Am (Proggy and riffy, but still has a very accessible metal sound and focus on the hook) The Answer Lies Within I Walk Beside You The Looking Glass You Not Me Along for the Ride The Enemy Inside: Again, proggy, but still has a more standard song structure with a catchy chorus Paralyzed Untethered Angel Out of Reach Build Me Up, Break Me Down (as Mike mentioned) Far From Heaven Beneath the Surface Forsaken Wither A Rite of Passage That's 25+ songs off the top of my head that cannot be boiled down to a soul-less wank-fest, or have catchy, memorable melodies, and I am definitely missing some.

[@kukukachu]

Thank You Scientist bois. Some of the BEST progressive prog rock/jazz fusion out there. Progressive music for me is music that changes its sound as the song moves forward. It's like 2 songs in one, so much so, you sometimes wonder if you are listening to the same song, until you hear the chorus again. I like songs that change and don't keep the same formulaic process as most music does, however, there is a place for that kind of stuff, I usually prefer the more complex. Kansas is more prog than all of those bands that you stated in my opinion. but it is easy to write a hit song....now writing a hit album...that's the true art. So hit songs are played in bars with intoxicated people, you only need make a beat that is easy to follow and something that you can get lost in your inebriation, just like techno and dub step. A simple beat will bring more people to the yard, especially ones that are drunk. Pink Floyd makes simple sounding music, but it has meaning and impact more than others like it because of the technique that Pink Floyd used. 19:58 that was a great analogy, yes, the taste has to come through for it to matter. 23:07 There is a time and place for everything and it's about finding where and when that time and place is in a song. Rock is the most fluid of genres so I don't know what that guys is talking about.... 24:50 again, time and place. Also restraint can create some amazing work as well, but again time and place. Also simplistic can sound amazing, just go listen to From Indian Lakes: Absent Sounds. One of the most near perfect albums I have heard in my life (in my opinion). But complexity does not equal wankery, it can be sophistication. Just as simple doesn't have to equal trash. Though both can be either or, it depends on how it all is used which then comes back to technique. You know what's interesting about Andrew W.K.? He writes all his work first in piano form...just a cool trivia. 25:56 and that right there is one of the stupidest things I've heard someone say...I already stated that a more simple sound is easier to bring in the masses because it is easy to digest. A good steady beat with a catchy tune will in fact please the masses more, but that is because most people's ears are not attuned to sophisticated sounds. I'd say that there is a lot of prog that I myself don't like that others do. I'm sure that if I kept listening to it and getting used to it, I would be able to appreciate it at least, but I don't want to. We all have our likes and dislikes. We also have certain amounts of fucks to give about things and trying them out or continuing to try to understand and for music, I don't think too many7 people have enough fucks to give to explore the complexity side of music...unless of course they were already into classical music. 31:04 I'd argue that Polyphia has different sound depending on which album you are listening to. If you listen to Renaissance, it's a totally different sound to The Most hated which has R&B inspirations. You could argue that the same sound is within each album more or less, but that's the theme of the albums...to say poliphia all sounds that same...that just makes you sound foolish. 31:36 Really dude? YOU think that Rush's songs were easy to play and memorize? Oki... 31:40 well spoken

[@rockplay100]

I've been to Prague a couple of times, and I must say that I haven't noticed the problems you are discussing here

[@cherrypopscile3385]

I was 100% sure you were gonna respond to this video after I saw it

[@IgnorancEnArrogance]

I understand the criticisms, I find Suppers Ready to be an incredibly catchy, memorable prog masterpiece with amazing solos and songwriting. I jam out to that 23 minute song like a 3 minute single. Some prog rock songs excell in both categories.

[@eliasaltman4439]

Finn’s videos tend to fall on both extremes of “fucking yes, 100% agreed” and “no you fucking idiot” simultaneously. Never a middle ground, always one or the other

[@midohiobuckeyeaorwarrior9743]

He's a effing One Direction fanboy. He's had several videos with Harry Styles in the thumbnails.

[@danielstewart2452]

I've noticed that. He tends to make the following statement: "I love (fill in the blank), but they should... and then rips said band's/genre's core ideal. Seems to me that he's just fishing for likes and doesn't have a true opinion, or isn't willing to express it.

[@tupaclives5848]

I'm pretty sure he's a marketing guy so he tends to think more in broad generalizations and analyzing the fans of something more than the actual music.

[@TheBlackQueen]

That's what you get when you drive entire videos on blunt oversimplified claims and call-outs.

[@venus9343]

Couldn't one argue that this "riff salad" is a form of catchiness. They still act as hooks, an example would be (this is probably a bad example, I don't know much about prog) would be blood and thunder by mastodon. The intro riff is awesome, in my opinion, and that is what hooked me onto the song. I consider me being inclined to headbanging to this riff a form of catchiness.

[@phyein4815]

This is exactly why I hate the whole "can't write a song" nonsense. Like, what is that really supposed to mean, and why does it even matter in the end? "Song" or not if the music is enjoyable, that is the question. It really seems like anyone saying that has an issue with anything more than a small couple of riffs, verses and chorues in a predictably compact few minutes, and that that is how music must be. Am I oversimplifying their thoughts? Well, it's not like the endless, lazy, and trite "can't write a song" criticism is really saying or hinting at much else, it seems.

[@c-notedaproducer1082]

Seeing two Opeth songs and a Porcupine Tree song warms my heart.

[@Yenneffer]

19:32 - dude's mind gonna get blown when he finds out fine dining is a thing that exists lol

[@Yenneffer]

Oh man, the more I think about it, the more stupid that analogy sounds. People will absolutely pay a good amount more for artisan sourdough bread than for white bread from a supermarket... the effort, experience and time that goes into it absolutely makes a difference.

[@tysonevarard968]

@@Yenneffer bro but it makes sense though. If going by that guys logic, why would the fine wine business even exist?

[@charlesmartiniii1405]

@@tysonevarard968 because it tastes more complex and filling

[@tysonevarard968]

@@charlesmartiniii1405 yeah I'm not disagreeing with that

[@DahliaOlive]

I wish I could knock what he said out of my ears. 😑😆

[@HeavyMetal-jy4vj]

This is Mikes thesis defense: now he is the ProgRockPhD! Congrats!

[@connerstines1578]

If someone's mindset for music is pretty much "get to the chorus or get the fuck out", then yeah they're never going to get into anything you could even remotely classify as "prog". Ain't me though, 70's prog is my life, though I also dig just more straight laced rock from back then and I love good folk music.

[@Sonicspeed3000]

My man dropping the TRUTH! I gave up on Finn after that whole Black Metal debacle... In response to your question: 1 - Somebody - Haken (It's got emotion and memorable vocal lines) 2 - Oceanrise - Caligula's Horse (catchy hooks, superb instrumental interplay) 3 - Shattered - Axon Neuron (perfect example of complexity that works and isn't jarring) 4 - Snårdom - Anglagard (just fucking bonkers, like how can you write music like this?)

[@Kymystery]

The Dear Hunter. All of the acts I through V. Literally flies in the face of everything he talked about.

[@voxextremos22]

On a lesser plane you could say My Chem is progressive at least from a thematic standpoint

[@OwenMiller-ge5lo]

Honestly probably Tom sawer by rush. Super catchy riffs, vocal lines, and even drums, everybody knows the song and it didn’t sound like anything else at the time it was released. And I find it Ironic that he put that as an example in the beginning of his video

[@michaelflorczyk1394]

Fun fact the Tom Sawyer clip wasn't him. If you watch his original video the first two songs were the only ones. All those other examples like Opeth, Porcupine Tree, and Dream Theater were included by Mike to prove that Punk Rock MBA's song examples were poor and stereotypical of the prog genre.

[@NullXNXVoid]

I didnt care for Rush initially, but that song changed my mind. Its awesome.

[@SorooshMhs]

The Pot by Tool has some of the most memorable hooks and melodies i have ever heard

[@spicybill]

Probably some asshole is gonna say: AcTuAlly ToOL iSnt Prog yUo pOser!!

[@colico14]

@@spicybill That's like people complaining that Floyd and Queen aren't progressive. Having memorable, classic songs doesn't mean an artist isn't musically progressive. No one will ever sound like PF or Queen. People don't even try, really, because it can't be done.

[@daan2564]

"Too much emphasis on being good at your instrument" What??

[@mastemathedank4043]

"How dare you try to perfect your craft" lol

[@mobilemetal4554]

And yet he glorifies cringe ass tik tok music

[@josephstalin2829]

Riffs > wank

[@charlesmartiniii1405]

Sometimes man. The dudes grandstanding while saying it too which pisses me off

[@chrisfuentes4482]

Yes you can place too much emphasis on this and come out with lame result. It can happen. In the punk world technical “skill” isn’t necessarily idolized. In fact the naive approach to the instrument is part of the charm sometimes. For example, The Ramones would not be the band they were if they sat down and learned to master their instrument and added all sorts of technical shit. They did “master THEIR craft” though which is having an original vision and seeing it through 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@matthewdrews]

"...I think [simple melodies in popular music] has a lot less to do with making a song good or bad, and a lot more to do with the fact that people don't like being challenged, and people, musically, are not very educated today. Liked and subscribed.

[@aaronmisra735]

Windowpane is great example for a simplistic prog song.

[@RanterInShades]

Had a feeling you'd respond to this one. This video of his didn't piss me off as much as his trap metal video and there were parts I can agree with, but I did feel he took a bit too simplistic of an approach to prog, especially when he was comparing it to pop. Along with saying things about it that can easily apply to pretty much every genre of music. Not to mention, I feel prog plays a very important role in keeping rock from becoming too typical which is a key component for it to not be dead, which I think is something Finn should respect about it.

[@darkdudironaji]

"I place a lot of the blame for that on prog." He blames prog for a lot. Given that it's one of the least popular genres, especially today, it must be doing a pretty good job at progressing music. You know... the whole idea behind the genre.

[@tysonevarard968]

Good point man

[@mvunit3]

Haha! EXACTLY! I don't think ANY of us are considered "Hip" for what we listen to :p. All we may get is; "GTFO, you're a 'Hipster because you like obscure bands no one cares about" on the interwebs (not in your face, in real life), which is just as ignorant as the cliché "P R E T E N T I O U S". Are these musicians "pretending" to be virtuosic? Yeah . . . how very COOL of us.

[@somedude5414]

"I got COVID - I blame Prog!"

[@skylinedrifter7589]

progressive rock is bigger now than it has been in decades...it should really be renamed art rock because it isn't going to progress very much further and is often nicely derivative of early 70s sounds when it actually was progressive

[@darkdudironaji]

@@skylinedrifter7589 You are literally discounting the biggest modern prog movement, djent. It sounds nothing like 70s prog rock.

[@45scienceproject]

Yeah, a guy with a punk rock channel really has a grip on the prog world. 🙄 Prog is not without its issues, but he really missed the mark I feel and I agree with you, Mike, in that most of his critiques encompass Metal in a much broader sense (and yes, lazy songwriting is a BIG problem there) as opposed to just prog.

[@phyein4815]

The fact that I have never watched and don't watch punk discussion vids, mostly metal, yet this guy endlessly shows up on the top of my recommendations like he's one of the leading figures of the metal community just bugs the shit out of me.

[@muenchhausenmusic]

17:50 One interesting point to this is that I think many pop songs nowadays have a lot more work (and thus time) put into the mixing. I'd argue that it takes longer to mix an average pop song today than your average prog song. So even though it may take less time to write the simple pop song, that might be made up for by the longer mixing process and the creativity that needs to be poured into it to keep the simple song engaging the whole way through. The appeal has shifted away from composition to sonic colour, I think. And if you follow that thought: There's so many cool synth sounds you can just access by browsing through a couple of presets of any of your synth VSTs. But the people programming those spent a lot of time on them. So, standing on the shoulders of giants, in a way.

[@The_ScapeGoat]

@D. A. You're objectively correct here. It's been measured objectively that music is getting simpler in literally every conceivable way. Less words with less morphemes. Less dynamic range of songs and instruments. Fewer notes in melodies. The over production is just corporatism. It's easier to control rap and pop stars because they're singular people whereas bands might have more than one necessary element that makes our breaks them. It's harder to control a team of people. It's a lot easier to control 'stars' who's sole motivation is fame and fortune.

[@eldritchbutter44]

I fucking love you. Thanks for this. I really felt like he crossed the line several times throughout that video. This was an appropriate response my anger wouldn't allow me to make. To answer your question... Everything by Opeth.

[@matiosmi137]

First I saw Punk Rock MBA's video, I thought "Mike's gonna have issues" and here we are

[@tannerthepanman9202]

I commented that on his video

[@chasm9557]

I'd like to see a video where they have a conversation on their different ideologies and perspectives on music and see what they agree on and what they disagree on.

[@Malum09]

@@chasm9557 definitely would be interesting.

[@IOxyrinchus]

I knew it was only a matter of time until you responded to this. Notice how Finn completely skipped over the countless ballads that Dream Theater have written for example? I like the guy but his sweeping statements about genres piss me off

[@ragnarokxg2113]

Dude skims every genre that is not Punk Rock, and even if it is Punk Rock, it has to be his own flavor of Punk Rock. I like watching him on certain things but the dude is always off.

[@IOxyrinchus]

@@ragnarokxg2113 his video on black metal and the reception it got is a prime example. Even he himself admitted how much he regretted making it

[@ragnarokxg2113]

@@IOxyrinchus dude literally skimmed over the bread and butter that makes up Progressive and went after what could be considered the bottom of the barrel of Progressive. He did something similar to ska as he did black metal, but because ska fans are all older dudes who could care less what one dude thinks he didn't get the same response.

[@disturbiafromthebay]

Dirge For November or Bleak by Opeth. I’ve never heard anything like these before and I would definitely define them as prog, using Latin inspired drums and groove mixed with tasty acoustic guitar and raw brutal death metal. Not to mention all the jazz influences and chords that give the songs another layer of dynamic.

[@bassimprovjams3772]

Actually dreamtheater is the first prog band i got into in then90s and fell in love with right away they changed my life as a bass player watching John Myung play under a glass moon on live a Tokyo was a mind blower ,

[@rmv9194]

Riffs are totally a song. Nothing wrong with that. Just as valid as just strumming 3 dirty guitar chords in a punk song. There is nothing wrong about having an instrument as the focal point, that it is practically what happens with any genre. Vocals doesn't have to always be.

[@AdvaitBhalerao]

Lmao you thought Prog just belongs to the guitar?

[@broedblings]

Here are three Polyphia tunes, one from each album: -Aviator -Crush -G.O.A.T Saying they haven't evolved as artists is misleading. Their older stuff is different from the math rock stuff people wank over today. They have alway been technical, but their sound has evolved over time.

[@samirgolchha]

and before these they were djenty\metalcore, so yeah the change is significant

[@broedblings]

@@samirgolchha That's true. Revisited "Inspire" just now.

[@axorn569]

they used to play death metal :P

[@DahliaOlive]

Whaaaaat, sir? Did I hear that correctly? Someone needs to have this man eat a charcuterie board with real sourdough, cured meat, and some nice aged cheese. And good wine. As a chef, that hurt my soul a little. I won’t lie. 😂

[@BecomeTheKnight]

Lol! I was waiting for your take on that 😂😂

[@Yenneffer]

I know, right?! I'm still mad hours after I heard it. After that I just can't take anything he said seriously lol. Foodies get just as riled up as prog fans, if not more...

[@Default78334]

Counterpoint/intentionally hot take: Chinese Democracy took ten years to record, therefore it must be one of the greatest albums ever.

[@nu-punkrants1551]

But what does Corey Taylor think?

[@conormurphy4328]

We can only hope to find out

[@Fierylizard-zc3vk]

This joke is so overused but i still laugh everytime

[@HeavyMetal-jy4vj]

Don't mean a motherf* thing?

[@kaboose111]

Sometimes Finn will use Rush as an example of over indulgent prog rock, and it kind of confuses me. Rush is one of the bands that knew when they went too far in one direction and PROGRESSED into another. He also picks on Crystal Lake, and they are pretty innovative in the metalcore scene. He makes good points, however, he uses terrible examples.

[@voxextremos22]

And Loathe Loathe is dope as hell they make music that is very progressive

[@balbaal9393]

Fucking hell that guy pissed me off. Didn't know the man, and I'm not glad I discovered his opinion. Making substance-less statements about a genre he clearly doesn't know well was a rather irritating experience.

[@MrKittles1123]

The other dude kind of had me on board til he said “Royals” is more impressive than anything Dream Theater has ever done. That is objectively incorrect. 😂

[@MarkQuick0411]

He’s a Hardcore fan they’ve got simplistic structures

[@666ACDCROCKNROLL666]

Yeah I totally agree, I love prog but man there was some seriously bad takes in Finn’s video. Royals by Lorde is NOT even close to more impressive than majority of prog bands and their songs. Finn’s take sounds like someone who doesn’t know HOW to music, looking at a Wikipedia article at the synopsis for progressive music.

[@oneoveronethirtyseven9161]

It's as if Finn thinks that all Dream Theater ever does is wankery. I do really enjoy Dream Theater, but I will be the first to admit that they go overboard at times. But to say that everything they do is like that means you haven't spent much time listening to them. Just one listen through Images and Words shows that they know not only how to play their instruments proficiently, but they also have the ability to come up with impressive compositions and beautiful, memorable vocal melodies.

[@Jordo246]

@@oneoveronethirtyseven9161 I used to be the guy that said DT are just wankery until I listened to Metropolis Part 1, I couldn't stop listening to it. After that I thought well they must have other stuff that's like this and that's when I became a bit of a DT fanboy. Whenever I see someone saying they're just wankery I know for a fact that person has not done a substantial amount of listening to DT.

[@TheWho58]

Finn is a troll he used to write for something awful and metalsucks back in the day baiting metal and hardcore fans

[@jonathanhenderson9422]

Frankly, I tuned out immediately in the opening section when he suggested prog rock/metal only appeals to guitar nerds and guys more concerned with technique than composition. Dude should head over to Doug Helvering's channel. He's a legit classical composer, a guy who can instantly by ear pick out keys and chords, someone who doesn't play guitar, someone who (according to him) prefers a guitarist like David Gilmour to shredders... yet the music he's most praised and found most interesting is prog rock and metal, from Dream Theater to Opeth to Yes to Genesis. Anyone who thinks prog rock/metal is all about technique is just fundamentally ignorant about music. Plus, I hate the notion that technicality is anathema to great music to begin with: much of the greatest classical and jazz music is highly technically demanding. Maybe a guy like Liszt was writing (to an extent) show-off pieces, but he also wrote masterpieces like his Bm Sonata.

[@mvunit3]

Bingo! Doug is a composer, conductor, musician and teacher that brings a lot to the table on how music is constructed, and how the bands he reviews, have their similarities with Classical musics tropes and techniques. When it comes to that whipping post; Dream Theater... He comes from a "fresh" approach (as do many Vocal Coach reactors) on LaBrie's vocals, he doesn't hear the criticisms, as he has worked with operatic vocalists and thinks LaBrie's voice fits, and musically, lyrically Doug breaks it all down as if he were talking about Beethoven or Wagner.

[@somedude5414]

You need your Daily Doug!

[@soopahsoopah]

We like Doug.

[@michaelflorczyk1394]

Doug and Mike are the only music react KZbinrs I'll watch because they actually critique and dissect the music at hand instead of calling it dope and pretending to act shocked.

[@jonathanhenderson9422]

@@michaelflorczyk1394 I really like Bryan from Critical Reactions too. He's also cultivated a really nice community of passionate music lovers who really like discovering new stuff and he spends a lot of time chatting with them/us on KZbin and Discord.

[@theleap2946]

I was hoping you would do a reaction to this. As much as I like Finn, he just kinda took an ultra negative tone against the whole genre while he constantly harps how great flash in the pan genres are. And even if he doesn’t like the genre he always says “well, just do your thing and you will find an audience.” This one had the same vitriol as his anti-hipster video.

[@Yungdikdong]

I agree with both of you on some points, some of the time. What Ive always said about prog metal technique and composition is that "Its sounds impressive, but it doesnt take make me anywhere"

[@jeremiahnations8808]

Funny how you were mentioning "Dance of Eternity" and then comparing that to writing a great and memorable hook, I instantly thought of "Fatal Tragedy"s hool, which for those that may not know, is from the same conceptual album "Metropolis Part 2: Scenes from a Memory. Dream Theater is the best at pulling off both of the aspects you compared there.

[@The_ScapeGoat]

Dream Theater is incapable of making music without a heafty serving of cheese whiz to go along with it. I can't explain what it is about them that makes it impossible me to believe in their music. They have amazing talent, songwriting skills, their music goes places. But all of their music reminds me of anime weebs watching DBZ.

[@beirongsheng]

His awful sandwich argument doesn't even make sense if you look at it from a pop music perspective. It took Peter Gabriel almost a year to write and record 'So', and that time spent resulted in a fantastic album. I guess that was just time and effort wasted by all those musicians? Go tell Tony Levin to keep it down with his technique. Yes, I also agree that there are a great deal of derivative modern "progressive" music out there, but there's also a lot of examples of bands that prove the opposite. So what is the real point being made? Some bands focus to much on impressing other listeners and therefore you can judge the entire output of a genre with general statements? As a whole the video from PunkRockMBA mostly seems like uneducated and narrow minded guesswork from a person that don't really know much at all about the music he is critiquing (and thisis not the first of his videos guilty of coming across that way).

[@theleap2946]

He knows and understands a lot of genres, but his tales are almost all based on what sells and what is popular. Okay, fine. But even for short lived and sometimes atrocious music (like crunkcore) he always says “just do your thing.” He defended Butt Rock by saying “just let people enjoy their music.” It’s the same reason why I don’t care if “modern” progressive rock bands have their weird stans and fanboys, because any genre that is looked down on will have those types. The only difference is Finn just outright put prog on blast and then left the room. He gave less vitriol to Brokencyde and Sixx AM.

[@CanadaWaxSolvent]

@@theleap2946 The problem with Finn is he is really uneven on what he attacks, and what he defends. I get the sense that his arguments are more contrarian to his commenters than wholly formed personal opinions that he's built up over time.

[@Default78334]

So if Chinese Democracy took ten years to record, it must be a ten-times better album than "So". Am I doing this right?

[@theleap2946]

@@Default78334 they only released Chinese Democracy because they wanted free Dr. Peppers. If that gauntlet hadn’t been thrown down, the album would be I. Purgatory to this day. 🤣🤣🤣

[@beirongsheng]

@@Default78334 Without a doubt! Well no, not at all of course. The mentioning of 'So' was just an example that I thougt of when I heard the sandwich argument. I don't really care at all if you spend a week or a year recording an album, as long as the goal is creating some good music. Some times that takes time, and some times not. My point was that I found it a bit ridiculous to bash ambition (that was what it sounded like to me at least).

[@shiukongyu7819]

I knew it, I knew the Music Snob will do a rebuttal/reaction video. I never clicked so fast in my entire life when I saw the notification.

[@corbinm5237]

It’s absolutely verifiably true that people aren’t as musically educated as people of older generations may be. There isn’t as much money made in music as there is in many other careers,so that’s less incentive to study music. Beyond that,every if not all middle and high schools cut fine arts funding before funding to any other areas of the schools. I’m sure that indirectly influences people to turn away from music too. And I disagree with the notion that you have to be musically educated and invested in music to enjoy prog. Or that you have to work your way up to enjoy or understand prog. I know many many people who have various levels of musical intellect who can enjoy prog. I’ve shown Periphery to many people and they can tell for example that Lune is in 7/4 or that Garden in the Bones is “not your typical song.” Or they just really enjoy what Periphery or Mastodon or Haken have to offer. So I don’t think it’s that cut and dry. Or accurate for that matter.

[@Kymystery]

Haken fucking rules.

[@silvertube52]

PunkRockMBA is not talking about Prog, he's talking about prog-metal, and what he's complaining about is the METAL part of it! 🤣🤣

[@tylerm8145]

Shit man, a few proggy songs with catchy hooks that come to mind: Vagabond by Polaris Ra by Northlane Also Ohm, Rot, 4D, Impulse by Northlane Lots of Northlane songs imo... Remain Indoors by Periphery Voices by Dream Theater Garden of Sankhara by Monuments Monolith by Erra (maybe it counts?) Nocturne by Tesseract All of This Is Fleeting also by Polaris Plenty more examples and maybe I'll work on more later if anyone cares. About Polyphia though...I don't think I quite agree with your stance on them. Disclaimer I used to not like them at all. Yes a lot of their SINGLES can get a bit samey, but I do think they've changed quite a bit over the years. They're more of a vibe-per-album kind of band to me. Even then, New Levels has a fair bit of range to it while still more or less maintaining the theme. Compare say Death Note or Drown, to Saucy or Yas or Rich Kids, to Nasty or GOAT. Similarities, yes. Same song by any stretch, nah. Imo they've gone from the whole modern shreddy "prog" instrumental thing (dare I say "djenty"? Actually tho we please fuck off with reffering to it as a djenre instead of a sound and lumping things into it that sound nothing alike...), to neo-classical esque, to borderline straight up hip hop, to their current hip hop fusion thing. I don't know them insanely well, but I really do think I've seen them come into a sound much more their own that a FUCK ton of people now try to imitate.

[@busterdouglas593]

Ohm is cool, I love Chris Poland