302. The Mystery of the Cathars

Was the Catholic Church Europe’s first revolutionary group? How are the Cathars linked to the genesis of genocide? Where does the term crusade come from? Listen as Tom and Dominic discuss the real history around the mysterious group known as the Cathars.
*The Rest Is History Live Tour April 2023*:Tom and Dominic are going on tour in April 2023 and performing in London, Edinburgh, and Salford! Buy your tickets here:robomagiclive....
Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook

[@ekesandras1481]

How do you explain that the German word for heretic is "Ketzer", which comes from the Cathars? And this is a very old word, that was used as early as the 13th century. The word also moved on from German into Danish, Frisian, Estonian, Dutch and Slovenian.

[@BertoniBertone]

Always thought provoking and fun…which any great historian ought to be : AJP Taylor anyone ? So why ‘commenters’ are being so snooty about this podcast is beyond me. However, Tom’s comments about the derivation of the word ‘pattarini or patarenes’ from a ‘cloth market’ in Milan is doubtful. I can find no market of that name or even close. The movement - La Pataria - is very much known and its adherents would consequently be ‘patarini’ but most Italian sources suggest this word might be derived from the Greek language but certainly there’s no connection of ‘place’ in Milan. Keep up the excellent work.

[@michaelbedford8017]

The Pattereens were easily identified by the inquisitors by their tiny feet.

[@NoleMercy-vb4qp]

2 things can be true. The crusaders can have been the revolutionaries and the “cathars” can have indeed held some dualists views or something similar to them. That they identified as traditional Christians and nothing had changed in their world doesn’t refute the concept that those views may have been long held there and never been sorted out. Clearly Tom is all in on the concept that it was made up and push back to revolutionary attitudes but his arguement is vague in regards to what their actual views were and why they faced the world fates humanity could create for them so ferociously. There was more there than simply deep devotion to their vision of christian orthodoxy. Some piece of their traditional regional faith was clearly very at odds with the revolutionary reformers and when thousands began to die they only push harder into an apocalyptic struggle for their views. This region had also been critical to the crusading movement since 1095 and frankly much longer in the “holy wars” that had existed in Spain, Italy and even southern france itself so certainly the concept of native Christianity not being that antithetical to traditional norms has legs but to say there was nothing there is a major stretch

[@NoleMercy-vb4qp]

Faced the worst*

[@juanfervalencia]

"it's exactly that, it's exactly that" said the albino monk.

[@barrylyons9296]

Cat arse

[@unbabunga229]

Starting to like these podcasts but…do they think the crusades were about Christianity and Christendom? Please say they’re not that uninformed

[@bearhustler]

This was one crusade, not 'The Crusades'

[@Rwthless1]

If you put heavy pressure on a group of worshippers to conform, heresy will always emerge, People don't like being told what to believe or do. And the more you root it out, people will hide.

[@benscoble7346]

This leaves me a bit confused on the subject. Previous knowledge of Cathars (how or whenever they got their namesake) comes from the excellent Let’s Talk Religion podcast, which seems to list with sources and in detail without objective view a minority religion stemming from Christianity and goes much further than this general outline painted here. Suggested viewing if this podcast was of interest not as a counter but as further (and different) listening. Oh and there’s no murky conspiracy theory within

[@j0nnyism]

I’ve read the da Vinci code so I’m basically an expert on the cathars and these guys have made a lot of mistakes here

[@launiesoult3248]

So you declared a heretic what difference does that make in your life I'm a bit confused

[@gbickell]

Loving the podcasts and videos! Thank you.

[@ambitionbird]

Very interesting -- but what does Moore have to say about the Book of the Two Principles? Or the Lyon Ritual? Forgeries?

[@benscaro7666]

Tom mentions these distinctive lists of 'adepti' including Da Vinci, Victor Hugo, and just about anyone else famous, seemingly cherry-picked from history. These lists re-emerge in any study of modern occult 'history'. They have a very prosaic origin - in the publicity material and lessons of the so-called 'Rosicrucian' order AMORC, a mail-order mystical business based in California, founded in 1915. AMORC claimed a false French origin itself, and was adopted by, and became very popular with a certain type of French occult fan, in the postwar period. AMORC was able to spread easily in this era as a lot of Europe's older occultists had been suppressed by the Nazis and so they started to spread in Europe, and bankrolled the Europeans' revival of their occult scene, if only their leaders would consent to join AMORC. This in turn lent AMORC a kind of legitimacy they felt they needed to expand, by demonstrating a bogus 'apostolic succession' linking America to Europe.

[@AgnesC1111]

Cauterize, to purify by fire. Cathars were burned, then they got the name. Not duelists, just think there are positive and negative forces. So we need to be positive to overcome the evil.

[@markmcnulty7736]

Not the meaning or derivation of cauterize. Also: you mean dualists not duelists.

[@exploringspiritualityourselves]

Mixing up conspiracy theories and academic histories does nothing for clarity. Neither does exaggerating what earlier histories have said or mischaracterising the Languedoc and ignoring great swathes of evidence that contradict the image you are seeking to portray. Clearly the 'Good Christians' existed , however loose their organisational structure, which went beyond anti-clericalism. To understand them we can start with with Paulo Coelho's saying that "The world is changed by your example, not your opinion" which was exemplified by the 'Cathars'/Good Christians. Though the Church characteristically obsessed about their beliefs and denounced them as "heretical", it was the Cathar way of life, not their doctrine that attracted people: living examples of people who sought to sincerely follow the teachings of Jesus. The second striking feature was that way that women, whose spiritual voice was so stifled by the Church, found it in the Cathar priesthood. If anyone is interested in exploring this further, we have produced a video on CATHAR WOMEN: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n2bUn559pa-gbKM

[@mackenshaw8169]

When you talk of an alliance between the top and the bottom against the middle you are echoing pure Bertrand De Jouvenal. A very important podcast that gets close to the root of the cancer in western culture.From the Pattarines to Woke the pattern remains the same.

[@AtlantaBill]

The name 'Cathar' is found in many languages of Europe, in which the term for heretic is a corruption of the name 'Cathar,' adapted to the phonetics of each language. German Ketser, Dutch ketter, Czech: kacíř, Slovak kacír, Polish kacerz, Swedish kättare, Danish kætter, Nynorsk kjettar, Estonian: ketser That cat bit is nonsense. Does your guest think that Wycliffe and Hus and Protestantism itself just sprang from nothing, like Minerva from the head of Zeus? What a contortion to save Roman Papism! Luther was a COUNTER-revolutionary: The opposite of a Wycliffe or Hus. The Jewish revolutionary spirit was a necessary component. Prague under the Hussites was Judeophile whereas under its Catholic restoration it was antisemitic, like Luther. This is the judgement of the Encyclopedia Judaïca.

[@bearhustler]

Well Minerva didn't spring from the head of Zeus for a start...

[@AtlantaBill]

@@bearhustler Minerva was identified with Athena, Zeus with Jupiter. "Minerva was borne of Metis, who had been swallowed by Jupiter, and burst from her father's head." Hesiod, Theogony, lines 901-907 "Minerva was borne of Metis, who had been swallowed by Jupiter, and burst from her father's head...." (citing Encarta Encyclopedia)

[@JC-KeepSmiling]

Wonder if it was the same black cat all the time, poor moggy.

[@michaellear6904]

Enlightening and entertaining, marvellous.

[@juanfervalencia]

The Catholic church is the perfect villain.

[@toxicstatesofamerica1277]

This is terrible. So many assumptions and the speakers expect their opinion is sufficient enough for their audience to deem their source credible.

[@ilokivi]

One of the reasons why accepting one version of events at face value is not good science: refer to source materials, read and evaluate these and draw your own conclusions. They may differ.

[@jlldndjd]

I mostly really enjoy this podcast, but on the ones where I have a lot of background knowledge (this episode isn’t really one of those) I find a lot of mistakes.

[@jonathonjubb6626]

This one is quite good, most of Holland's knowledge here stands up to scrutiny...

[@juanfervalencia]

Does it really deserve the adjective "terrible"?

[@Eizengoldt]

It doesn't but internet likes extreme opinions to sound smarter ​@@juanfervalencia