176: Volume Progression w/ Mike Israetel & Alex Boivin

[@ReviveStronger]

Timestamps: 01:00 Alex kicks off with talking about his critics 4:20 Mike response to Alex's interpretation of Mike's approach 11:30 Alex's take on soreness, pump, difficulty of a session 13:40 Mike gets back with estimating MEV 16:09 Alex talks about his approach and believes what's optimal 18:06 Mike critiques Alex's thoughts and when adding more volume is a good idea 27:42 Uncertainties of adding volume 31:01 Alex's doubts about increasing sets 33:25 Mike speaks about mesocycle progression and decrease in rep ranges over time 40:38 Periodisation and its effect on muscle fibre type and thus, what's probably the best rep range 48:52 Are high rep sets actually beneficial?

[@Anassomou]

It's like Alex is playing the role of the average intermediate lifter getting all the necessary clarifications out of Dr. Mike about his model for hypertrophy. Incredibly useful conversation.

[@ReviveStronger]

Which is good, right? - Pascal

[@Anassomou]

@@ReviveStronger absolutely!

[@fncr070]

Anassomou Approved

[@calebduran5349]

Even after purchasing and reading RP books, I feel like I understand Mike's volume progression concepts even better now. Thanks for this roundtable!

[@ReviveStronger]

Happy to hear that Caleb :) - Pascal

[@fd4099]

@Eugene Stoner he meant that even if reading those books helped him understand that model better,this video did even more

[@l3monpig]

Wow, this conversation REALLY helped clear that question up. I had wondered about the set progression during a training block.

[@ReviveStronger]

Happy to hear that :) - Pascal

[@Chaosdude341]

Dr. Mike's always a pleasure.

[@ReviveStronger]

Happy to hear that but I agree ;) - Pascal

[@The10Daniel10]

After being teased on Instagram this week (thank you Steve) I jumped on this video so quick! Lol Dr Mike is so awesome, I can literally listen to him talking about anything because he makes it so interesting.

[@ReviveStronger]

;)

[@emmang2010]

23:36 Man re watching this for like a 6th time and this point here that Dr Mike goes on is so critical. I would love him to go more in depth on intermesocycle volume/performance progression like this.

[@muscleandmath2910]

So I'm new to all this volume increasing RIR mesocycle stuff. Just thinking out loud to see if I understand this. More volume (sets) causes more growth as long as you can recover (maintain performance). So start with MEV and a higher RIR. Drop RIR through the weeks, increase reps and weights and add sets as long as you can recover from them. Few things I don't understand are: if you've been adding volume and reach a point where you plateau, would you always deload or can you decrease volume slightly, focus on progressive overload for a while and then try to add volume again? How long would you spend at a particular RIR? Would you use 3-4 RIR for the first week, stay at RIR 2 for most of the mesocycle, then go to 1 for a week or two and have one final week of 0 RIR? Also, if more volume is always good, why don't we always stay at our MRV? It could take some time to start at lower volume and actually find MRV, but after we know it, why not stay there for a long time since it is recoverable volume? Or just slightly lower than MRV.

[@ReviveStronger]

First off, thanks for the question and thoughts. Volume seems to have a cap as well, which doesn't necessarily need to be recovery. I'd start the meso with RIR 3-4 and progress down throughout the meso. Makes sense? One reason is because we simply don't need to be that close to failure and by that, you can progress nicely through the meso. - Pascal

[@14SoccerLee]

THIS! This was awesome, Dr. Mike is superb in this one. I think this is the best episode yet. He is able to just make is so clear to understand. It is very difficult to argue against his methods especially as hard sets is best correlated to hypertrophy.

[@ReviveStronger]

Yeps, he is :) - Pascal

[@nickcustodi592]

Man I just stumbled on your channel and this shit is like fuel for my fire. Thank you so much for giving these guys the platform.

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks a tonne Nick! - Pascal

[@ryanburnham9270]

I'm your host, as always, Steve Whole

[@ReviveStronger]

As always

[@Chaosdude341]

Rewatching all the Revive Stronger pods with Dr. Mike in them, and I've come to an apt comparison to Dr. Mike; he's the Richard Feynman of sport science. Dr. Mike's intuitive, analogous understanding of a very complex system leaves me understanding his perspective and wondering how I could ever have been confused in the first place. Thanks for all that y'all do.

[@ReviveStronger]

Oh I love Feynman and I love that comparison! - Coach Jess

[@yancasemiro9798]

Very informative! Really enjoyed the content and also the vibe of the conversation. One little tip that I liked was to consider adding sets on the lighter exercises, rather than only on the heavy compounds as I've been doing. I agree that it might help manage fatigue, both intra session and within the mesocycle. Thanks for the podcast!

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks for listening! - Pascal

[@icejumperke]

Awesome episode, guys! Thanks for this! 🙏💪

[@icejumperke]

Eugene Stoner - HELL FUCKING YESSSSS! 🔥

[@ReviveStronger]

Thaaanks!

[@SFSBuster]

Mike is literary genius.

[@ReviveStronger]

Can't deny that! - Pascal

[@daytonasayswhat9333]

Like, he’s a good writer?

[@SFSBuster]

haha im sorry :) literally*

[@emiljorgensen5340]

Thanks for this! Discussions are the best.

[@ReviveStronger]

Cheers man :) - Pascal

[@segason6]

When Dr Mike says that functional overreaching hypertrophy has been thoroughly demonstrated, to my knowledge there’s only one study about it. Is that enough to be this confident about this concept for hypertrophy?

[@MatthewSchrage]

I noticed this too. I'm not a research expert, but I don't think you can say it's "thoroughly" demonstrated to say the least

[@M3Jou]

i think the real question is if you would see the same increase in hypertrophy by just replacing the deload week with another normal training week in a less rigorous training program (or running a longer training cycle instead). i'm not so sure about that.

[@petedawson5875]

M. Jouchan are you saying you think the person who did a normal training week instead of a deload would benefit more? Or what’s the stance? Jw

[@MatthewSchrage]

@@petedawson5875 Functional overreaching in a Volume Landmarks sense means that you would intentionally push beyond your MRV in the last week of the meso, such that performance actually decreases in the short term right before the deload. The alternative to this would just be to hit your MRV and deload like normal. It's a relatively pedantic thing to fuss over, but that's what the functional overreaching argument is about, whether or not it's worth it to push past your MRV.

[@MatthewSchrage]

@@M3Jou If you are able to just "get rid" of your deload, your training probably isn't nearly as hard and productive as it could be. A deload should be well-needed after a meso of hard training

[@chronometa]

My volume increases lately are: Compound and machines: adding reps> load>sets Accessories, arms, shoulders: reps>sets>load.

[@ReviveStronger]

Sounds like a very good approach to me :) - Pascal

[@chronometa]

@Κώστας Ανδρέου typically I try to squeeze out getting more reps or decreasing RPE at a given rep range before adding load on compound lifts before adding load in my particular case for volume.

[@chronometa]

@Κώστας Ανδρέου I am at the moment yes. I am using the rp templates. I just know what works for me in terms of getting the most out of my training I guess. 🤷‍♂️

[@torbit]

Thanks Steve and Pascal!

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks as well :) - Pascal

[@ryanburnham9270]

coach Siakam

[@sioux7420]

Steve, Mike and Alex. Thank you for another amazing podcast. On a side note. How are you feeling Steve? Have you gotten over the issues you were experiencing? (mentioned in episode 123) All the best..

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks as well. Steve is better but still not feeling optimal :/ - Pascal

[@sioux7420]

@@ReviveStronger Happy he is feeling better. That is always the first step towards recovery. Im sure he will bounce back in no time. I hope for a speedy recovery :) All the best from Denmark...

[@theMxko]

I respect the hell out of Mike but the man has to let the other guy talk he even hints at it at the end lol. So bring them back! I need more!!!!

[@chronometa]

Lol. His tangents are infamous. I don't think he does it on purpose though.

[@ReviveStronger]

He simply has a lot to say which isn't just rambling :) - Pascal

[@Chaosdude341]

Respectfully disagree on the middle point (Mike rambled), agree on them coming back, even after their recent episode together. Good chemistry.

[@gamerchristina1079]

Damn I LOVED THIS ONE!! THANKS AGAIN!! 💪💪❤️❤️‼️

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks! - Coach Jess

[@yacine31cool]

Omg dr mike is a genius .....

[@ReviveStronger]

He is :) - Pascal

[@asp6415]

This was awesome!!

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks a tonne Abin! - Pascal

[@neillpatterson]

When I try to progress the number of hard sets on squats and deadlifts I get a lot of intra and inter session fatigue in my lower back, which makes me dread going to the gym and spend too much time resting between sets. I'm wondering if a good approach for someone like me might be to stick to 2-3 hard sets of squats, and then use something like leg press to progress volume Does this sound like the correct approach, and if so, what would be a good accessory movement be for deadlifts?

[@ReviveStronger]

Sounds very reasonable! - Pascal

[@thomasthetankengine2257]

Awesome boys 👍 been wondering about these subjects a while now, brilliant information Steve 😀

[@ReviveStronger]

Happy to hear that it cleared things up :) - Pascal

[@alichishti579]

This is gonna be Epic!!!

[@ReviveStronger]

Hopefully it turned out to be ;) - Pascal

[@KP99911]

Just want some clarification, In this discussion Mike mentioned increasing volume leads to hypertrophy unless you do too many sets like 10 per session. My question is when incorporating compound movements to your workout, wont workouts surpass 10 sets easily for the same body part. For example a general leg workouts with squats, leg ext, lunges, doing them 3-5 sets each already is surpassing that 10 set per body part. Is that already too many, Can someone clear that up for me?

[@JohnProph]

so Alex sort of posits that 4 sets of squats is good and then just micro load and add a rep here or there. So how does he arrive at 4 sets though? is it random? is it based on going balls to the wall? Im thinking if the sets are more like rpe7 then more sets could be added as per Mike's ideas. I know it should be common sense but high volume and mega intensity dont really mix.

[@ReviveStronger]

True on the last bit. I think, Alex mentioned it in his stand alone episode - Pascal

[@lordfarquaad3939]

3 minutes in and I can already tell this shit will be AMAZING! I'm definitely watching till the end.

[@ReviveStronger]

Hope you called to say that you loved it! - Pascal

[@Biolo-G_KJ]

No clue why but I really can't handle alot of volume. Sometimes I could make progression by only doing 3-4sets of quads per week and brought my squat from 315 to 480lbs. And bigger quads. But when I do like 10sets of quads every week (squats, leg extensions, some lunges) I just cant seem to recover. I'm not a beginner. 6ft and 205lbs with 15% fat. A 320lbs bench, 550lbs deadlift, 220lbs OHP etc. They seem to say I need more volume but I'm just not able too. Is it geneticly or something else? My back can handle the most amount of volume and even that is considered MEV according to Mike. My sets are mostly 5-9 reps and 2-4 reps from failure.

[@ReviveStronger]

I have one client who's like that as well and probably the most jacked of them all - Pascal

[@Biolo-G_KJ]

@@ReviveStronger thank you for you advise. I had 1 more question. When a programm says 70%. Some say base that on your alltime estimated 1RM (so guessing to the high end). Like I did a 550lbs grinder ugly deadlift months ago. I might be able to do 555lbs now. So for training I will do 70% of 555lbs. Or should you say 550lbs from a few months ago was an absolute grinder. I can't do that every few days. What I can do is 520lbs with perfect form every week without a problem. So for training I will do 70% of that. Which one should I choose. And when people like Mike say hypertrophy comes between 0-6RIR. Is that from 0 total outgoing ugly grinding failure or goodform failure??

[@LightyMiner]

I wish there were more science-based strength training and nutrition podcasts around. I just consume them all during my commutes and then I have nothing else to listen to. Can you gys link me some good science based (doesn't even have to be lifting if it's really interesting) pods, please?

[@WolfCoaching]

Hi-Phi Nation is very good.

[@cannonbrunsvik7370]

Stronger by science, sigma nutrition, 3dmj. There are tons honestly.

[@ReviveStronger]

What Cannon said! And Iron Culture - Pascal

[@ConorDuck]

Barbell medicine podcast too, also Reactive Training Systems podcast.

[@gamblestyle7337]

Fantastic content. If only such open and reasonable debate could take place in the political realm. Dare I whisper it: "Dr. Mike for Prez?....Make volume adaptable again."

[@ReviveStronger]

Haha, he has been accused of being a great politician - Pascal

[@JohnProph]

Alex around 31minutes saying how he would be dying after 3-4 sets of squats. This is the primary point and where the arguments and confusion come in. Seems he is the standard "hardcore" bodybuilder committed to intensity at all costs. For example he says on his second week he will " increase the load to get where his RPE SHOULD BE". Then he says that is a 7 perhaps. If he is "dying", isnt he way above RPE 7? So for him to add a set WOULD be pretty hard. If we are going to be research-based, what about the research showing that even staying 3-4 reps from failure gives the majority of the hypertrophy benefits? Almost all of the arguments against some of Mike's ideas seem to come from guys who are committed to training to failure or very close to failure. Well yeah, if each set is balls to the wall then of course u cant add many sets

[@ReviveStronger]

I can only speak from my own experience. Even at an RIR of 3. High rep squats are very fatiguing and the next set will already be quite low in performance. - Pascal

[@JohnProph]

@Max Joseph I think its just comparing apples to oranges. If dude wants to be a failure junky more power to him but why then does he act surprised that he cant handle as many sets?? lol. Its sort of like a keto guy and a high carb guy comparing diets. Obviously neither diet will make sense to the other guy lol

[@grizzlymanverneteil4443]

[@grizzlymanverneteil4443]

On a serious note, it's extremely frustrating that i have consumed literal days worth of audio and video of Mike between this channel, JTS and others and spent months calculating these values and still missed the point and application of mrv so massively.

[@ReviveStronger]

No shame in that mate :) - Pascal

[@grizzlymanverneteil4443]

Yeah, atleast i finally figured it out lol

[@ryanburnham9270]

Why does Mike leave the sticker on his blender bottle?

[@ReviveStronger]

Haha, is he really? Didn't take much notice :) - Pascal

[@SpaarKCOD]

Like the new thumbnail

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks! Basically just for roundtables/discussions - Pascal

[@devil5hlygrim972]

Isn’t this also individual, because I literally don’t feel shit unless I’m doing 16 sets per day full body 2x weekly I just add reps from 20-40 by the end of the two months then deload Coming from a strength background and mike menizer heavy duty

[@14SoccerLee]

You must not be going to true 4-0 RIR if you can do 32 weekly sets. Re evaluate your program and stick to mostly compounds. In addition, your meso should theoretically only last 4-6 weeks as you are in the constraints of RIR. You start at 4/5 RIR and go to 0/1 RIR. That leaves you with only 6 weeks max of a meso. In that case, then you add sets week to week.

[@devil5hlygrim972]

I’m Natural, but I’m 6ft3in and naturally really strong

[@devil5hlygrim972]

I’m also doing very light weight for myself I went from doing 540 on the leg press 3 sets and five repetitions to now 135 for 40 repetitions max so i’ll take into consideration what you were saying but my body is adapting and I feel great and I’m gaining weight and my joints don’t hurt I don’t feel exhausted and I’m continuously getting a pump however at the end of mymeso i’m overreaching by adding 5 to 10 pounds on every single set or muscle and adding different exercises before my Deload

[@devil5hlygrim972]

The only time I don’t bring myself to true failure is when I’m doing a body part that feels achy due to my past injuries from a car accident Other than that I bring myself to failure at the end of each set and sometimes even push past it

[@devil5hlygrim972]

Eugene Stoner I’ve been working out for 8yrs but even when I just started I’d workout for hours at a time, I have no idea how to prove it I gain weight like crazy stuff like 100lbs in 3-4 months and I’ve been 300lbs I’ve leg pressed 540lbs at 180lbs for 5 reps I also lost 120lbs in 3 months over one summer went from 300lbs to 180lbs Currently, I’m bulking started oct 1st at 190lbs gained 15 pounds so far 205lbs I weigh myself fasted and after a bowel movement

[@worlddatanews24]

So... why should I do to structure a good hypertrophy mesocicle

[@ReviveStronger]

He "Should" not. It may be beneficial though - Pascal

[@LarryShipeWorld]

Good video! But way too profound for me lol. I just lift

[@ReviveStronger]

Fair enough :) - Pascal

[@naskrajuciszy]

is volume progression a good tool to have in one's arsenal? sure is it necessary to make good gains? no

[@ReviveStronger]

Correct - Pascal

[@jevgenirusai9069]

Algo comment!!!

[@ReviveStronger]

Thank you :D - Coach Jess

[@5lu99yMe]

39

[@boxerfencer]

1st?

[@ReviveStronger]

You did it!! - Pascal

[@joserueda3239]

Alex just ended up agreeing to everything Mike said, which Mike had already said in basically everything he publishes. This podcast was kind of a waste of time. Pretty dissapointing.

[@ReviveStronger]

Sorry you feel that way - Pascal