115: The Rest, Tempo, Pump Work Roundtable - Mike Israetel & Menno Henselmans

[@ReviveStronger]

Timestamps: 00:42 Menno starts with talking about rest periods 05:30 Mike adds his opinion on the topic 14:22 Menno responds to Mike's take on rest periods 17:05 Mike talks about decreased performance independently of rest times 21:15 Mike further elaborates and talks about a limit of performance decrease for an exercise 23:08 Menno first adds something to Mike's stated approach & continuous with touching on the topic regarding tempo 28:13 Mike comments on the points being made by Menno 31:06 Mike shares his thoughts on variations and techniques such as pausing 33:58 Menno appends on pauses for hypertrophy 37:10 Mike expands on the topic and the potential downsides 39:47 Menno moves on to talking about training with bands 42:17 Mike gives his slightly different view on using bands 45:50 Mike responds to Steve's question about potential benefits and practical applications of using bands 47:36 Menno further goes into the topic of using bands 50:19 Additionally, Mike elaborates his views on bands 53:04 Mike continuous with a short summary and how people easily get caught up with minute details 55:04 Menno follows up with speaking about "overcueing" 57:15 Mike brings up the point about posture obsession 1:00:31 Mike shares his thoughts on the fallacy of "Perfect Posture" 1:04:12 Menno talks about perfect form and momentum 1:07:16 Menno goes back to talking about the illusion of "Perfect Posture"

[@hayden3281]

Regarding posture, it may not have direct carryover to successful hypertrophy or athletic performance, but isn't there some merit to good posture preserving skeletal and joint health? The erector spinae muscles more of the endurance type, slow-twitch, postural muscles, aren't they? Does that not mean that they could be trained to endure for longer and longer? Potentially as long as someone needs to sit in a particular posture? Keeping the spine in a neutral, upright position while sitting, as I understand it, is recommended by physiotherapists to preserve vertebral discs, not placing undue pressure on one side or the other which can occur during chronic kyphosis or lordosis. Potentially risking a ruptured disc or hernia. Also, wouldn't a more upright posture facilitate a full ROM of the rib cage during respiration, meaning more efficient breathing? I am not a professional in PT and I'm not well versed in the obsession with posture by the groups Mike mentions. And admittedly I have no idea how posture has any relation to hypertrophy. I just question if it is something that can be dismissed. None of my questions here are rhetorical. If there's something I'm missing I'd love to be corrected. Thanks for the quantity and quality of the content you put out! The discussions you have are informative, interesting, and in a real sense, life changing for some. Keep it up! Cheers

[@BrendanTietz]

This is basically the only KZbin channel in the fitness community I watch. Great shit guys

[@ReviveStronger]

Brendan, thanks a tonne. It's an honour and means a lot to us hearing this! - Coach Pascal

[@elleveldy]

There's a lot of content I enjoy on youtube. But the fact that there's a bunch of podcasts with people like Israetel and Henselmans on them amazes me! Huge props to them for taking the time for this quality content and to Steve for hosting and getting some greate people on!

[@ReviveStronger]

Elle, thanks a tonne for your support and listening. Means a lot - Coach Pascal

[@doug2993]

Mike has a great sense of humor! Makes the show very informative and fun at the same time.

[@ReviveStronger]

I love him for that! - Pascal

[@michalus09]

The only time Dr. Mike leave that chair is when He goes to the gym or get married.

[@ReviveStronger]

Hahahaha, so true - Coach Pascal

[@hodornador6085]

Hahahah

[@StanislavPaseka72]

Thank you so much all of you guys! I haven't seen it yet but I am looking forward to it! Congratulations to Mike btw.

[@ReviveStronger]

Standa, always good to see you around :) - Coach Pascal

[@StanislavPaseka72]

Thanks Pascal, I actually have finished interview with my former acting teacher who use resistance training in order to stand on his own legs after 7 years of sitting of wheel chair. It was fuc*ing inspirational. If you'd or anyone from Revive Stronger would have place to share the good inspirational story associated to resistance training. I'll be very glad. Have a great day!

[@gmchitaru]

Dude, amazing Roundtables with Mike, Menno and Eric. Very useful for any guy looking to improve his knowledge on Strength/Resistance training

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks for tuning into this episode :) - Pascal

[@nickcustodi592]

Mikes bro imitations are the real reason I listen to these :)

[@ReviveStronger]

Hahaha, I agree! - Pascal

[@MrBravo1990dk]

I really needed to hear that part about posture, because i might have been obsessing a little too much about all that stuff recently. Thanks you guys massively :)

[@ReviveStronger]

I guess, there has been a time where a lot of people were falling into this. Especially when the supple Leppard came out - Coach Pascal

[@MeleDrummer]

Just watched it, world class content as always. I wish there was an oscars for fitness podcast, you deserve it! BTW, they didn't really talk about pump work much, I though they were going to discuss the use of a metabolite phase in a periodized plan. Thanks a lot Steve and Pascal, always learning from the best thanks to you guys!!

[@ReviveStronger]

Maybe we can bring this up in another episode then. Thanks for your continuous support! - Coach Pascal

[@isagenesi1326]

Soooo cool!!!! Steve you da best for doing these podcasts. Much thanks to All of you!

[@ReviveStronger]

Isa, hopefully you liked this one :) - Coach Pascal

[@shimmy885]

Dude this is so so so good! Steve, ya killed it again!

[@ReviveStronger]

Shiiiiimmy HACKER! Everyone who knows RP+ knows your name ;P - Coach Pascal

[@Repoduce]

Again, great podcast man. Can't wait for the next one!

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks Erik, happy to hear you liked it - Coach Pascal

[@CALISUPERSPORT]

I enjoy Mike's mini-rants and real life scenarios lol

[@ReviveStronger]

He's simply the best^^ - Coach Pascal

[@s241914]

Mike should be a comedian. His "bro rants" are hilarious

[@ReviveStronger]

I could listen to his rants all day! - Coach Pascal

[@matthackett83]

Man I needed those perfect posture rants, I’ve been way too hard on myself in that respect for what I now realise is no reason other than what I keep hearing about it. Light bulb moment. Everything else was insightful and awesome always.

[@ReviveStronger]

Happy to hear it was - Pascal

[@wellscraft]

I really needed to hear this one. I've been to focused on precise rest intervals. I used to go more by feel and progressed better. Lots to think about. Thanks!

[@ReviveStronger]

Perfect timing then I guess ;) - Coach Pascal

[@rodolfooviedo6542]

Terrifically informative! I took many notes.

[@ReviveStronger]

Happy to hear that ;) - Pascal

[@jonp694]

Lol Steve trying to be that nice guy, sensitive of their time and call it a wrap. Mike ain't done. "Yo Menno - let's rant bro." lol love it.

[@ReviveStronger]

He's always the nice guy..but, if Mike rants, please don't stop him, it's simply too good - Coach Pascal

[@dwbakker]

Post trainig!! I'm back!! I was on vacation, enjoyed the time off and now back in learning & training life!

[@ReviveStronger]

Have we been on holiday together? Don't remember but possible ;P - Coach Pascal

[@amandamadge6513]

Love this!! Wow the point made (14:11) about rest periods during the tail end of a long cut...just hit me like a brick!! Before this current cut I didn't realize how much rest I was taking/felt like I needed between sets, as I near the end of a long cut (generally between 1-3 mins depending on heavy vs light what mesocycle I'm in...the last week I've felt like I need 3-6 mins between some sets) . I thought I was just starting to get drained on lifting because it's been taking so much mental energy to get up and do my next set over the last week, and I LOVE lifting. I have one week left in a 12 week cut, now it makes more sense to me. You guys are awesome!!

[@hanspumper7462]

INSTANT LIKE FOR THIS QUALITY!A roundtable series about the nutrition pyramid(with Mike, Eric and Menno) would be nice (calories, marcos, micros, ...):D Thank you again for this roundtable! And please an interview with Cliff Wilson(More about offseason weight gain,macros, mircos) again! ~Hans

[@ReviveStronger]

Yeah, it's been a long time since we had Cliff on the show :) - Coach Pascal

[@hanspumper7462]

Good questions for Cliff would be(all about offseason- just some idears): 1. How much weight gain (Newbee vs intermediate) per month 2. Macro breakdown 3. Peri-Workout nutrition 4. The "Supplement hierarchy"(mybe the top 5) in the off season(muscle and strength) 5. How fast and often minicut in the off season. Thank you ~Hans:)

[@boxerfencer]

Some great questions to what I thought was going to be boring subject! I ended up learning a few things.

[@ReviveStronger]

Happy to hear that! - Coach Pascal

[@youtubewatcher2006]

Hey Steve, did I understand Dr. Mike correctly: Rest between sets as long as you need to perform a quality set?

[@jsmithes]

So freaking blessed 😭

[@ReviveStronger]

Yeah buddy^^ - Coach Pascal

[@Yupppi]

I think Menno and Mike bring up a brilliant point about how the exercise science is much different from some fields when you simply have to accept some unknowns and lack of isolation in studies, or designing the study setting in an unorthodox manner, because actually training seems way too multi-factored and the results have to hold some relevance to actual training people. Where it depends a lot of who you train in what way, and the studies showing connections sometimes are fully irrelevant to someone who is an experienced trainer, because it was done in a way that doesn't apply to anybody and where the trained people weren't relevant in their body's functionality and response to training. Like basing big concepts or hard general conclusions solely on data from complete novices who have never trained, training in a way that nobody would ever train, how can a 10 year bodybuilder benefit from that no matter what it implies? In a way it's like engineering where you have to show some applicable results rather than micro level details that don't reflect the real world results the way the connection perhaps implies. Also shocked about the band answer by Mike, I thought he was firmly against bands and thought they change the force curve in an unnatural way and whatnot. I didn't expect him to agree with Menno or not present a strong opposition. Without Eric Helms this panel is way too agreeable ;) Eric and Mike always manage to get some debate going. My personal experience with pullups has always been that it's super easy to get close to the bar, can do that partial reps for multiple times, but the top part to get above the bar is the most difficult one.

[@ReviveStronger]

Very little funds in bodybuilding studies overall so it's a bit complicated especially to get them replicated, especially for advanced people indeed. Now the underlying principles derived from it are most likely applicable to everybody, the magnitude of which will be dependent on how long you've been training for sure and there will be differences yes. Anecdotal evidence plays a role, experience, and people like Mike and what they write or think or make videos about help a lot! Thanks for sharing the rest :) And thanks for tuning in! - Coach Jess

[@The10Daniel10]

Let's just say yesterday was the worst time to forget my headphones at home :(. I'm happy to be here now though... Super stocked!!!

[@The10Daniel10]

Second time I listen to it today... Fucking awesome!

[@ReviveStronger]

Maaaa man

[@jo69817]

I'm a junior in undergrad and want to earn my doctorate in physical therapy and work with physique athletes and powerlifters and other athletes. I've been shadowing physical therapists who share the same opinions you do and I cant wait to help bridge the gap between barbell training and physical therapy. I agree with you guys 99002638%😂

[@ReviveStronger]

That's fantastic to hear and I wish you all the best in your endeavour! - Coach Pascal

[@berrysliwa1]

This is so interesting... This isometrics being more taxing than dynamic, i believe it might have something to do with the rate at which neural impulses need to be fired to sustain constant tension, but need to investigate :). And keeping constant rep count across multiple sets, i found that Eric Helm's Repetition in reserve good tool to achieve that, where 1st set is done at 3-3,5 RIR , the following sets will be 2, 1, 0 RIR or close to that.

[@ReviveStronger]

Definitely one way to do it! - Coach Pascal

[@Guitaristo]

Great episode.

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks buddy! - Coach Pascal

[@workoutunleashed]

Fun times as always 💪👍

[@ReviveStronger]

Roundtable fun - Coach Pascal

[@PeteCLeonard]

Another amazing round table. Its refreshing to hear that the general advice given here by such knowledgeable people in the industry is so reasonable. Too many trainees are looking for super advanced techniques and approaches, and it just seems like a waste of energy. Love these podcasts to keep my head on straight!! Also, the Paprika Analogy by Dr. Mike is excellent haha. Thanks guys!

[@ReviveStronger]

Peter, totally agree and always good seeing you around - Coach Pascal

[@johnrich7879]

Saying longer rest period is better is discarding the effect of Myo-reps, rest-pause methods. Can you make a video on that?

[@MeleDrummer]

-Long rest: basic hypertrophy work (squat, press, rows, deadlift) 7-12 RM -Short rest: metabolite work on isolation moves, because that's the point, to accumulate metabolites.

[@johnrich7879]

The notion on shorter rest is also to just activate more often the high threshold muscle fibers and not wasting energy on the junk volume.

[@ok92computer]

Myoreps and RP are essentially ONE extended set. Not the same as saying the rest period between 2 regular sets

[@MeleDrummer]

John Rich Basic hypertrophy work also activates high treshold muscle fibers. If you shorten the rest, you limit the total amount of volume you can lift, and since volume is the main driver for hypertrophy, you will get less jacked. Rewatch the episode, they explained this. Metabolite techniques are great, but only for certain applications, they should not be the core of a well designed program.

[@ReviveStronger]

The "Magic" about myo-reps or techniques like this isn't the short rest time. Furthermore, you can't or at least, it's not advised that you'd myo-reps with all exercises and all the time. - Coach Pascal

[@andrijajanfranjcec6888]

Great video, but I have one concern. I read that fast twitch muscle fibers (which are the largest and grow the most) recover slower than slow twitch fibers and if you rest for to little time , you'll run mostly on slow twitch fibers on your next set. That kinda contradicts with Menno's statement that if you're time limited it's better to shorten the rest periods and do more volume and Mike's statement that hitting less reps on each next set doesn't matter.

[@Youngstomata]

I would love to see Stan Efferding in one of your podcasts. Especially a round table with dr Mike

[@TheNietzschian]

Too bad he has very little idea about anything

[@Youngstomata]

@@TheNietzschian ya too bad. Thanks for the valuable input.

[@EmilWestrum]

Please no, that dude is so full of bullshit.

[@tokkia1384]

Menno is basically Santa when he was young and buff.

[@ReviveStronger]

Petition for "Menno for Santa" - Coach Pascal

[@griffingeode]

I had to stop my workout due to laughing at Mike with his banded load impressions and menos with his pencil rotations

[@ReviveStronger]

Hahaha, when I'm editing these, I sometimes have to pause myself - Coach Pascal

[@30minutephysique]

I know this is old, and maybe newer podcasts go into deeper detail, but at the beginning Mennos mentions the relationship between total reps performed and total volume, concluding that shorter rests therefore decrease overall training volume. My question is: does total time, aka volume density, not have any impact on total volume? Logically, I personally would think it must play a role. Vince Gironda seemed convinced that decreased rest times had a positive impact. Legitimately curious on what the recent research is saying about this. For what it's worth, I'm running a 12 week density focused experiment myself to come with my own conclusions on this very question

[@ReviveStronger]

I am absolutely not versed on the literature on the subject so take this as my personal opinion only, but I think that shorter rests would just give you a time advantage, I personally like longer rests between sets for most exercises (nothing crazy but still longer than what would be considered normal by most people like a minute and a half between isolations) because it allows me to perform better all the sets, with equal quality. I think the more you can do, maintaining quality of execution, and still recovering, is what you should aim at if that makes sense? I'm curious to see what conclusion you come with with your density focused experiment and what's that like? - Coach Jess

[@30minutephysique]

@@ReviveStronger ya that makes sense. I'll see how the rest of this experiment goes. I'm curious to see how recovery plays a role in this as well. Whether shorter overall sessions help promote better recovery or if those fast paced workouts actually hinder recovery over time. The history of physical culture contradicts itself so much on topics like this (some are all for brief, intense workouts, while others note better progress on a more methodical steady approach) and it may just all come down to individual differences and time availability to train, etc. Thanks for the response. I enjoy the podcasts 👍

[@ReviveStronger]

@@30minutephysique I can tell you for sure right now that it comes down to individual differences haha

[@whitegatorade6209]

Damnit Steve! Again!

[@ReviveStronger]

Damnit Alex, just Pascal here! - Coach Pascal

[@alexdmrgs]

On Dr. Isratels hack squat example, he performed a total of 55 reps (15,13,11,9,7.) However, if he had rested longer to perform the 15 rep sets consistently, he would have achieved 75 reps. Wouldn't that equate to more hypertrophy? Also Menno said that less rest is worse than better for hypertrophy. Can someone clarify? Thank you!

[@alexdmrgs]

@m jr so it is not best to reach that rm again? I suppose you can't theoretically reach a 15rm again if it's a true 15rm. But suppose you did add those extra 20 reps. That's another 50+ sets in a year, it adds up

[@MrMioy]

+Revive Stronger very informational and helpful as always!My questions are: 1)If in the 1st set we get 12 reps with 2 rir and in the 2nd set we get 6 rep with 2 rir using the same load,do these 2 sets have the same amount of volume? 2)Is it better to aim for a specific number of sets per week(for example 16 for quads) that come from the 6-15 rep range or have a weekly rep target(for example 160 reps) that come from the 6-15 rep range,since 16 sets might have less or more than 160 reps depending the reps per set?

[@ReviveStronger]

1) No, not if you're counting volume as total workload 2) if you're doing "hard sets" you can count the total amount of sets. If you're using intensity techniques such as myoreps, drop sets, etc then a rep count might be appropriate as well - Coach Pascal

[@bj12288]

Idk how i feel about the whole posture thing you guys were saying i think posture is very important

[@ReviveStronger]

Thinking is not the same as knowing and right now, there isn't much literature on supporting the importance of posture. - Coach Pascal

[@bj12288]

Revive Stronger thanks but why do you think people always talk about how they get shoulder impingement cause of their rounded shoulders?

[@elleveldy]

Who says that? Why would rounded shoulders cause impingement? Unless you're trying to like overhead press with rounded shoulders (which is basically impossible, and you'll feel the pain right away), poor shoulder posture isn't going to cause impingement. -Not a doctor

[@shorshamid]

Metabolic stress V mechanical loading who is the best build muscle ?

[@ReviveStronger]

Do you mean Mechanical tension? What's really the most important variable for hypertrophy is still unclear, but progressive tension overload seems to be mandatory, which is created with increasing load+volume over time. - Coach Pascal

[@TheNRicciardi]

Can you please try get Martin Berkham, lean gains guy on your podcast before his new book releases? I think it would be hugely valuable.

[@ReviveStronger]

Interesting but tbh. I don't think it's going to happen. - Coach Pascal

[@derekbenz141]

Try and challenge the interviewees with tougher questions and to sum up their points and make it transparent for all their conditions for which factors affect rest periods and how much

[@JustinMorgan105kg]

When considering volume, (particularly MRV), would all exercises that contribute to lower body fatigue be considered equally, or would movements like goodmornings and RDL’s contribute only to posterior muscles while squats, and front squats might contribute to both or primarily quads?

[@perman07]

Not speaking for them, but I imagine there are two different equations going on. There's the total volume for each body part, then there's systemic fatigue. Which is why lighter variations like RDLs are more common for powerlifting programs than triceps isolation is (of course people put that in anyways), because more volume of squats and deadlifts variants contribute much more to systemic fatigue than more volume of bench variants. Meaning the inclusion of good mornings and RDLs are usually more to manage total fatigue than because they are the optimal exercises for that body part. Which may not be answering your question, but I think you're correct in your interpretation that movements typically only count as volume for 1 body part in Mike's system, even if they are compound movements. He for instance counts 5 bench sets as 5 pec sets and 0 tricep sets.

[@JustinMorgan105kg]

perman07 thanks, that’s actually kind of what I was thinking as well. I’m an Olympic weightlifter though, so exercise selection is a little different.

[@ReviveStronger]

Perman did a great explanation. Not all exercises are created equal and you can change things like squats so that they are hitting quads more or less. - Coach Pascal

[@Franky-zc3xx]

Where is the pump talk?

[@vardaspavarde8480]

what I personaly do is have some time when I biuld up 2minutes and then make me rest longer at some training phases and found that my work capacity incrase have better strenght muscule gains dispite stumilaiting less hypertrothy then doing this i stimulate more in future find that a pleatau buster specialy when adinh sets dosent realy posibel since I have job now lol and somtimes doing resets and add sets guest dosent work and less rest for same tonages maybe inferiot than sets reps or extra sets but somtimes its only think you can do and its better than guest do nothing

[@798185xz]

As an English learner, I find the frequency of using the words "tangent" and "skeptics" are really high these days!

[@ReviveStronger]

Hopefully the content is easy to understand though - Coach Pascal

[@798185xz]

The discussion on posture over-obsessing just fascinating! Keep going and revive stronger!

[@ReviveStronger]

We will and thanks for you support :)

[@colin5423]

LETS GOOOO

[@ReviveStronger]

Aaaaand? How was it? - Coach Pascal

[@danlee9109]

His rants are fucking epic

[@danlee9109]

Sorry I think it maybe goes without saying that I'm talking about dr Mike

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks for watching :) - Coach Jess

[@semiephemeral9]

"it says here you're morally bankrupt" LOL

[@ReviveStronger]

Haha, so long time ago again - Pascal

[@dustindarabaris48]

Mac and Cheese with paprika is delicious first of all.

[@martingaggero8462]

1:08:04 when she tells you she is alone at her house.

[@ReviveStronger]

Haha

[@gamerchristina1079]

💪💪❤️❤️‼️

[@ReviveStronger]

Thank you! - Coach Jess

[@berrysliwa1]

Great work, waiting for FB post to love it! ;) you may also check Chris Beardsley (Strength and Conditioning Research), if u havent already :) He does some awesome inforaphics for many meta-analysis.

[@ReviveStronger]

Haha, it's out ;P - Coach Pascal

[@ReviveStronger]

And yeah, Chris is doing fantastic work!

[@respeezy]

Love the shitting on Functional Patterns rant

[@ReviveStronger]

Hehehe, we have much more where this came from - Pascal

[@respeezy]

@@ReviveStronger link?

[@ReviveStronger]

@@respeezy nearly all videos with Mike :D

[@razvanimal8690]

For once I don't agree with what Mike says at the 30:00 mark. Slower tempo workouts definitely feel a lot more hellish to me and take a greater mental toll.

[@ReviveStronger]

Totally fine to disagree every once in a while :) - Coach Pascal

[@Knx3k]

Real lifters pimp walk their way out of leg day Also, hi Pascal

[@ReviveStronger]

Hi Kung!! - Pascal

[@rebel6176]

Sound quality is bad. Specially menno

[@ReviveStronger]

Yes, absolutely. - Pascal